This week on the show is Sarah Giffrow, sharing with us the lessons she learnt when she started a podcast in 2020.

Here are the things she learnt:

Be realistic with your time and consider what's happening in your life now.

Perfectionism holds you back.

Don't get caught up with the sound of your own voice!

PRO TIP: Try listening back to yourself every day to get used to the sound of your voice. Remember to be kind - NO JUDGEMENT!

There's a learning curve with new tech, especially editing tools.

PRO TIP: Do your own research and experiment with different tools to see which work for you best.

It might help to listen to a past episode I recorded about How to publish your podcast Just to get you started with your research!

Keep the format simple and let the conversation flow.

"Comparison is the road to abandoned projects." Sarah is 100% right here!

The comparison game is one I struggle with too and it DOES NOT HELP!!

Thanks, Sarah for sharing your experience!

About My Guest

Sarah’s path was set in the days of the Old Internet--she was raised in an unusually tech-savvy household, and she hand-coded her very first webpage in 1995.

Her online marketing studio, Upswept Creative, was born out of her side hustle as a photographer, where she often found herself seized by the irrepressible urge to help her photography clients improve their websites.

In her spare time, she can be found lifting heavy barbells, refereeing roller derby, cuddling her spicy meatball of a toddler, and giving all the pets to her extremely food-motivated tuxedo cat, Zergling.

Sarah's website

Connect with Sarah on LinkedIn

If you have any questions or would like some help with your podcast, book a podcast enquiry call.

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If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love it if you could leave me a review.

You can leave one here

Thanks so much!

I'd love to connect with you on social!

You can find me on:

LinkedIn | Website

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Struggling with your podcast promotion? Grab my Easy-Peasy Podcast Promotion Checklist here!

Hi, and welcome to Podcasting 1 0 1 with Rachel.

This podcast is for busy female entrepreneurs who run their own

businesses and want to start podcast or who may already have a podcast.

I want to share practical information and tips on how you can.

Podcast started and managing it along the way.

I'll also be interviewing other female podcast hosts to give

you real insight into what it's like having your own podcast.

Hi, and welcome to this week's episode.

Today I have Sarah gif Row, and she is coming to talk about some of the pitfalls

or do's and don'ts about podcasting.

And so to start with, Sarah, do you wanna just introduce yourself and

let us know who you are and what you.

So, yeah, uh, my name's Sarah Giro, uh, and I am

the owner and creative director.

Uh, benevolent overlord, I like to say of Upswitch Creative.

I

love that.

Yeah.

Um, and we do, uh, website, social media and email marketing for

established ethical and passionate small businesses and nonprofits.

So that's our main.

Awesome.

And so we are here to talk about, um, a podcast that isn't live anymore.

It was one that you did a couple of, was it a couple of years

ago now?

Yeah, yeah.

Um, yeah, it was a couple years ago.

Um, and this was, uh, this was a side project.

It was totally unrelated to my business.

Maybe it's kind of rare.

Um, but yeah, I started it in, uh, March of 2020.

It was called Mixed Metaphors, and it was centered around interviews with, uh,

mixed race folks, um, which I am one.

And so, um, and just the journey of, um, figuring out our identities

and how we take up space in various different spaces, whether they're.

White spaces or, you know, person of color spaces or, you

know, everything in between.

And just a lot of the, a lot of the, uh, stories around that.

So, um, oh yeah, and I got a lot of good feedback, uh, from the folks I talked to.

They, they were like, I'm so glad you're doing this, but, uh, I, I

definitely made some choices that made it more difficult than it needed to be,

which is why I'm no longer doing it.

So let's start with, so it's a pa it was a passion project.

What made you want to start it?

Obviously March, 2020 was, was it pre covid or just as it hit, was

like, was the idea percolating for a while pre kind of covid or,

yeah.

Um, it was something I had had in mind for, uh, for, yeah, probably six months or

so prior to Covid and, and I think I had done a couple interviews at that point.

I was very much taking my time with it.

And then, and then, yeah, uh, COVID started and, and I was like, well, I

have all of this free time at home.

I can figure out this podcast thing.

Uh, yeah, it's, it seemed like a nice idea at the time, but, uh, but

yeah, I, I think that it was, uh, it was a mistake in the long run

because as the pandemic went on, Yeah.

I, I think my capacity, I think a lot of people's capacity to just do

anything, uh, dropped precipitously.

Yeah, definitely.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's, and I think that's something that's, is, that's a big thing

to consider when you were thinking about starting a project of this sort is.

You know, whether it's a pandemic or a major life event or even

just like a lot of small stuff that's draining your energy.

You have to really be real with yourself about your capacity and, and ask yourself,

you know, what are you gonna have to put aside in order to make room for this?

Cause it's gonna take time.

And, and, and that time has to come from somewhere.

So, and that country as.

Absolutely.

I'm a hundred percent agree with that.

I think that that's kind of like one of the first questions, um, that I would

say to somebody if they were thinking about starting a podcast, like say

this kind of size of a project, be realistic with the amount of time that

you have to, um, just to spend on it.

And whether it then at that point, maybe depending on, you know, whether

you have the funds spending, whether it's a passion project or, or for your.

Um, whether you could outsource some of those parts or whether

that's even an option for you, or making it in a way that, okay, I

can't commit to weekly episodes.

So let's start with monthly episodes.

Or just having that knowledge so you can base it if you really

want to do it in, into, into your, your work, your working life.

But it, it is a big commitment whether you've got somebody helping you or

not, you've still got to come up with those creative ideas around what you

would like your episodes to be and the plumbing and, and the fact that it

just takes time, recording and editing and all those other things that make,

and then promoting it that make it.

So what was the first kind of thing that you came across that maybe

that you stumbled over or that you started to feel that maybe it was

a bigger project than you thought,

or?

Well, the funny thing is, as far as the, as far as the promotional

side, I think that's where a lot of people would, would get hung up.

But given that, you know, I already had website skills and social

media experience, I, I felt.

I know how to, you know, I know how to set up the, the website and the podcast feed.

I already have a host.

I, I know how to promote things online.

And so that, that piece I kind of had in the bag, but I think a lot

of other folks wouldn't necessarily.

Um, yeah.

But I think, uh, I think a lot of my, a lot of my issues stemmed from.

It stemmed from the desire to, to nitpick at myself, which I think we're

all a little guilty of that sometimes.

Um, but yeah, I would say don't spend a lot of time editing yourself.

This, I feel like you need to kind of brace yourself for

the sound of your own voice

sometimes.

Uh, yeah, I was talking, I did a post today about, um, perfectionism

actually, cause it was making me.

Um, the, like you're talking about, the sound of your own

voice can be hard to hear.

I, I still, um, don't always like the sound of my voice or how often

I might say, um, or so, and, and when you listen to yourself quite

a lot, you kind of see those things and you pick those things out.

So you have to kind of try and put those things aside sometimes.

If you let it get in your own head, it's very difficult when you

are editing and you're listening to it over and over again.

It kind of just becomes, oh no, I don't, I don't really feel comfortable with that.

So that is something that, I mean, yeah, everyone with imposter

syndrome as well, I think is a big, all those types of feelings.

Was that, um, were you finding that hard?

Like was that getting in your head when you were interviewing

people as well, do you think?

Or just kind of like at the editing?

Yeah, I think, um, I think less so during the interviews themselves.

I definitely thought about it, but, but yeah, it was definitely in the

editing stage where, you know, yeah, any sort of like, you know, vocal fry or

saying, um, or leg or any of that, it's.

It's gonna be a hundred times more grading when it's in your own voice.

Like your voice doesn't sound the same in, in your head as it does on a

recording, and it's just, it's so jarring.

You just, it's, it's like you kind of dissociate from it almost.

Like, that's not me.

I don't sound like

that.

Absolutely.

Yeah.

I, I definitely felt that I never, one tip that someone says is, is

really listening to it over and out.

By listening to it over and over again, you kind of get used to the

sound of your own voice is one way.

There's a guy that, um, Tom Dun hope, he was talking about video as well,

about how we we're uncomfortable in a video about seeing ourselves.

Um, but it's because we don't often see ourselves from that angle.

Um, only when we look in a mirror we don't really think about it.

So when you're like presented with this image of yourself, it's, it's

kind of the same as the voice, as your.

Um, and he kind of recommends like listening to yourself, um,

to get used to the sound of your

own horse.

I definitely agree with that about video too.

There fan.

Uh, a few instances where edited video of myself and yeah, you're not, like,

you're not usually talking to yourself when you look in the mirror, so like, no.

When you're watching a video, it's like, what is my face doing right now?

It's, it's

really out there.

I get so distract.

By my own face sometimes just like stick a post-it note over my own face.

She's like, no, I don't wanna look like that.

Why is that?

But yeah, there are things that you, things that you do

need to like get over that.

So to get into the next, the next hurdle.

So how did you find it from, I mean, you being a website designer, you are

pretty tech savvy, you know, so did you find the process of editing fairly.

That's the thing is I don't think it was, and a lot of it

was just obsessing about those details.

Um, and yeah, there is a bit of learning curve with the, with the

different editing tools that, you know, I, I didn't, I didn't ever feel

like I really got the hang of it.

Um, so, so yeah, it's, it's definitely, um, it was definitely a learning

experience in, in that regard.

What did you use for.

Have interest.

Yeah.

I, how was it called?

Oh, yeah.

I used Audacity

a card.

Oh yes.

Yep.

Yes.

I'll use Audacity.

That's what I use.

I've, I've real life audacity.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, yeah, and I think this is also, I think it's kind of a pitfall of my

experience too, is that, well, my husband has a podcast called The Weird History.

Huh.

Podcast.

Okay.

We already had good equipment in the house, but then I, I was also like,

he uses Audacity as she use Audacity.

He hosts his feet on blueberry.

I should hosted on blueberry, and I was, and I don't know if those are

necessarily the right tools for me.

And I think I, I think, I wish I would've thought harder about that and maybe done a

bit more experimenting, um, just because.

I know from like the webs, the website worlds that, you know, they're like

different site editors and different tools and, and what's intuitive to one person

is not gonna be intuitive to another.

So, um, I could have tried harder in researching editing software

to make sure I was using something that really worked for me.

It's, there's a lot of information out there about

different podcast hosts, uh, platforms.

Um, and editing tools.

So I know a lot of Mac users.

I'm not a Mac user myself.

I don't use f I'm Android, but, um, garage Band, um, apparent

is really good for, for editing.

A lot of people I know use that.

Um, I used Audacity, but I have used that in the past.

Years and years ago my degree, so I kind of had some familiarity with it.

So, but you, there are some, I think even with an canal.

So ANCA is the free platform that's slight linked with Spotify and, and

I think there's like ALI two as well and you can edit, it'd edit in there.

And I find those a little bit clunky to, to edit if you, depending on

what type of editing you want to do.

To make it simple.

If you want to kind of put conversations on there that you don't wanna take too

much out bar, maybe if there's like, you know, some, some interruption in

the middle, you can click the ends.

And some of them even have like, um, a, a sound processing thing where

they'll do like a general thing for you, um, to make that easy and easier

for you, which I think is great.

If that's, if the, if the, and if you can have that all in one.

And, and often that's a big barrier for people to, to starting and like

say, you faced with this decision.

I'm not sure what to do without.

I mean, I spent lots of the time researching.

I mean, mainly as well being a podcast manager, I wanted to see what, what

was out there and what tension I could suggest to different clients and stuff.

And then you start diving into all of that and you think, oh

my gosh, like I'd not heard of blueberry when you mentioned that.

So there are so many different ones out there with different functional.

I'm not surprise you when the one that your husband had, because

it's just, it's just like, well, it works for him, you know?

And um, so I guess that's one kind of thing is making sure the, the tech

works for you and exploring, maybe exploring anything you, couple of

different options before you sell on one and getting some, some advice

off, uh, a few different people.

So what, what, any other things, what other things did you find that any of

the problems that you kind of came.

I think I had a fair amount of overthinking at play as well.

I, so I, I definitely overthought format and it's really going to be

better to keep it simple at the outset.

Um, so because my podcast was centered around interviews with mixed race, I

mean, I totally could have just recorded our conversation and posted it to the

feed and voila out there, but mm-hmm.

I don't know.

I was probably listening the too much, 99% invisible or this

American Life for whatever.

Um, and I, I just came in with this like really grandiose vision of

storytelling and I'd be like, narrating like Roman Mars and sending Oh really?

Oh wow.

Yeah.

And it, it just added so much complexity that I didn't anticipate.

So, you know, that turned into like hours and hours of tedious editing

and like splicing clips together.

And, and I, I absolutely hated it.

And it's probably the major reason I let go of the project is, is that, yeah,

I just, I was expecting way too much out of myself, right out of the gate.

You know, a lot of those, a lot of those, um, really well known podcasts, you

know, they have entire teams behind them.

They have, yeah.

They have people doing their research.

They got the sound engineers and editors and their entire job to do that one piece.

And so expecting all

that wire.

Yeah.

All the hearts doing every Yeah.

They've got a massive production team.

Producers.

Yeah.

Everyth.

Everybody there.

So what was the format then?

So you had the conversations with the, with the different folks that

you had on, and then what did you, what bits were you narrating over?

I'm just interested to see how you kind of came up with

that, um, type of, uh, format.

Yeah.

Um, I essentially did the, I like had questions that I would ask them and, and I

would sort of look for the story in there.

I mean, I really, I was really focused on.

Creating a space where they could just talk about what spoke to them.

And I just held space for them and listened.

And so it's, oh yeah.

It wasn't so much like a back and forth of like, of us having

a conversation necessarily.

I was just, I was more just like listening to and looking for the story.

And so I would, I would like put the pieces together in a way that made

sense and, and then, You have a little, you have a little bit of context.

So

the episode would be more of them with Aroy telling

their story, not like a, not like a question kind of answered kind of thing.

And then, um, have you doing the mill parts in there?

Yeah, that's really, you should, you should try.

Um, I know you said it might not be available anymore before

we hit record, but it would be really interesting to, to listen.

To the podcast as well.

Yeah.

Um, just to see that type, that's not something that I, I guess the

type of podcast that I've created is, is not the same as the type of

like, what the idea of the concept of the idea that you wanted to do.

If you could like, redo it again.

Like, like what things, how would you like to see the format now to make it,

to still get across what you want to get across in your podcast, but make

it easier for yourself so that you.

Continue to get back content out there.

Yeah, I think that, I think I would definitely start with just having

a more or organic format to my interviews and interviewing people is, is a skill.

It's more of a skill and I think people realize sometimes and mm-hmm.

And yeah, I think, I think I would want to have it be more conversational.

I think I had a.

Due to the, due to the nature of like the subject matter, I, I had a certain

amount of hesitance about taking up too much space in, in the interview.

And, and so I think, uh, I think that would be, that was something too, uh,

that I needed to get over myself about.

Mm-hmm.

Um, oh yeah.

I, I think that's, yeah, having a more organic conversational flow.

Make would really trickle down and make everything simpler.

Um, it would make the editing go more quickly and, and yeah, it would be

able to actually stick to a schedule and not go overwhelmed at audits.

Um, and it would be, it would be very tempting to, uh, hire someone

to handle the editing for me.

Um, if it ever got, if I ever got to a point where I felt like that

was in the realm of possibility.

But yeah, as a, as a passion project, it's, you often just feel the Oh, yeah.

Out.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah.

It's, yeah, as a passion project, it's not, um, something that you

can, it's a lot of money to spend on something that's a passion project.

But do you, do you feel, do you feel, um, that you'd still be able

to get across, um, what you wanted to achieve with your podcast if

you had the conversational side of.

Yeah, I think

so.

Um, because the, I mean, I was focusing on a group of people of which I am a

member, so, um, but yeah, I think, um, I think that a lot of, I think a lot of

the themes would still come through and I would just, yeah, I would just need to

get more comfortable with interviewing.

Having that conversation so that I don't feel like I need

to spend hours and days out,

down.

Yeah, it's, it is hard with interviewing and, and you're

right, it is, it is a skill.

And I got inside.

I wasn't, um, having the same kind of conversations that you,

that you were having in your podcast, but I still felt a bit.

Awkward.

And I did look at it like, like a bit more of an interview.

Um, my first podcast was, um, into different virtual assistants and

learning about their journey and how they got from where they were to

where they were now and, and what's evolved in their business and things.

And I did keep looking at it more, it's more of a, it, it ends up being, it's more

of a conversationalist, um, podcast and I, but I was looking at it like a, like

an interview and that really kind of made.

Really nervous about, um, doing the interviews.

And I still do sometimes get inside my own head and sometimes I'm so focused

on the questions that I wanna ask.

I'm not, not really listening to what somebody's saying to

be able to ask those questions.

Um, that might just come up naturally in the conversation.

Um, and that is some, this Janet Murray that I mentioned earlier, she talked

about she, um, well she used to be a journalist as well, so she's got kind.

But she was like more of a print journalist than an

interview, um, journalist.

And she was talking about getting some training, like interview training, and I,

I'd never thought of that of a podcast, but actually depending on the subject,

that the people that you are interviewing, having some kind of training and, um,

really been able to, to, to listen to what they're saying and then think of

other questions to ask rather than ones you'd already previously thought is,

is a skill and would be something that could be, um, a really good investment.

As well, couldn't it?

Yeah.

Yeah, I think so.

And, and, yeah, I definitely had a similar issue to you was just with

the whole thing of like, oh, I've gotta make sure I ask these questions.

And like, getting to the point like, especially because I'm like ADHD and

I will just like go off on a tangent if I let myself, so I, yeah, I think

getting like overly focused on like, these are the questions I have to ask.

It was hard to also like, hear what they were saying and, and

actually have the conversation.

So that's, that's a very real issue too.

Yeah, I totally get that.

Would you feel more comfortable now doing, doing some interviews or

conversationalists now, or what kind of things do you think you could do

to help you feel more comfortable?

Or would you be more comfortable?

You know, having had that experience before and knowing kind of how you felt

then, like what things would you maybe do differently in the future if you were

to do a podcast here?

Uh, I actually like the idea of interview training now that you've,

now that you've brought it up, I think that would've been a huge health.

Um, and it still would be.

Um, but yeah, I, I'm one of those people, crew.

A lot more comfortable in writing than I am in like verbalizing so, so the getting

into the overthinking space when I'm like having a conversation, it's just something

I do when I'm having normal conversations.

So yeah, having more of a framework around just like how to approach interviews

would be massively helpful and or that's definitely something I would wanna look

at doing.

Yeah, it's something that I thought about as well.

Thought it would just be a really valuable skill to, to work on and also help with

your, could help with like, not that I do a lot of presenting or speaking,

but you know, there's a potential for doing that as well and or I dunno,

if you end up getting on a paddle somewhere at a conference or something

like that, those kind of skills would, would come in handy there as well.

But yeah, I think I would feel more comfortable just

having done it once and and experienced all of these various ups and downs.

That's the cool part of mistakes is that you can learn from them and do

things differently the next time.

So I feel like if I were to try it again, it would go a lot

more

smoothly.

Yeah, well you, you're not kind of, you're not starting from square

one like previously you, you, you didn't, cuz you don't know what

you don't know really, do you?

So yeah, you've made the mistakes and you know, but I think it is important.

Make those mistakes cuz you'll never learn or get that experience.

And if you don't just start, you could pontificate, uh, forever about what

I was saying about perfectionism, about not starting the podcast or not

letting it out there cuz it's not.

I had this as well with both mine.

I was like, oh, who's gonna listen?

And I don't know whether like, what I sound like is alright

or if I, I just say, okay.

But until you kind of do it, you are not gonna know.

And that's, we all learned by doing.

We all didn't like walk as a toddler, like straight away, didn't not

stumble over or anything like that.

As you keep trying again to get it done, so at least you'll know you've got that

experience under your belt and that if you were to go forward, you can draw on that.

Was it, so there's no mistakes, you're just failing forward

or something like that.

Like, yeah, not, not failing forward, but you know, that kind of a sentiment.

I feel like the things that, the things that have come to

my mind and just like thinking back on this are like, are one that done

is better than perfect and Yep.

And I think the other thing is that like a lot of people like to say

comparison is the thief of joy.

And I feel like, I feel like it's also like comparison is

the road to abandon projects.

Is just thinking too much about what other people doing and, and it sort of sucks

the joy out of it for you, so Oh yeah.

Definitely better to just do it and see what happens.

Yeah, definitely That comparison game Oh, is, is, uh, I often

find myself sucked down that comparison game, and even earlier this year I

was trying to kind of like think about my business more strategically, like.

Comparing myself constantly to other things or outside influences or

someone that's got like, you know, 10 more, 10 more years experiencing me.

It's like you've given yourself that hard time thinking that you should

know all that stuff and that you should get it perfect the first time around

because you know about their mistakes and obviously they would never have got

that had they not made similar things.

But yeah, you can get a bit, well I can get a bit paralyzed by that.

Um, and then trying to think of, um, I did some C B T last.

And I had some, uh, kind of like different exercises to do.

A lot of my problems.

It was overthinking, um, like stress caused by overthinking.

So some of the tools that she gave me, I use in my business as well

to help me when I am overthinking.

I've got like a worry tree and like thinking about like,

can I do anything about it?

They know so okay, park, it's all this and they've really helped me.

While I do have those kind of.

You know, day to day things in my s where I end up feeling like, oh, I

can't do this, or I can't do that.

So those kind of exercises have really helped try and get over that

or stop the, uh, overthinking because you, your brain just goes like

million miles an hour, doesn't it?

And then,

yeah, yeah, it does.

Yeah.

I, and something that, something that has like been really illuminating from time

to time is like if you're listening to someone, Podcast when you're like looking

at their art or whatever and you're thinking, oh my God, they're so amazing.

Like, go like way back to like episode one or version one or, or like the very

first comic strip they drew or whatever.

And you, it just like, it looks totally different.

It sounds totally different.

Like you can sort of, if you go from like the beginning to now,

you can like see the difference in.

That comes through and then builds up as they get all of that experience.

So, you know, they were, yeah, they were starting from a much different place.

Everything can evolve along with you.

I've been saying this as well that, I mean, my podcast has evolved over

time, and like I said before, but you don't know what you don't know, and

I think that it's a great thing for your podcast to evolve with you as

your experience and your knowledge.

Your podcast is, and I'm sure if I listen back to that first

interview I did for my first podcast, oh my gosh, I was so nervous.

I remember thinking afterwards, I'm so sorry because this is so a bitch.

Because I felt like he was really well bitched.

I felt like I really got into my, like, have my questions and all of

this come stuck into my head and I thought, you know, but then again,

I, if I hadn't started doing it, you know, you won't be where you are now.

So the moral of the story is don't give up.

Yeah, try and work it.

Start, yeah, just do it.

Have you got anything else?

Um, or any other advice maybe that you'd like to give to somebody

who's, um, thinking about starting, um, a podcast or for their business

or for a, as a passion project?

Um, more

than anything, I would just say be like, do

your own thing, whatever it is.

Yeah.

Nobody is, nobody's gonna have your ideas, nobody's gonna

approach it exactly the way you do.

So just roll with that.

Yeah.

Just figure itself out.

Yeah.

I, I think, um, when I was starting my podcast, I knew there was another

person, another lady, um, who was doing something similar to, and

she thought her before me and.

We'd met, and I knew her and I was worried that she was gonna think

that I was copying her podcast and I really got into my own.

But I remember somebody talking about, um, obviously there's a need for if

some, if there's more than one podcast about something, because obviously

there's more than one person in the world thinking or talking about that,

that, but, um, particular subject.

But you are gonna do it the way that you are gonna do it.

Like you just said, it eats.

Um, it's not gonna be the same as help podcast because I'm completely different

to her and I'll do it in a different way.

Um, but again, I suppose it's going back to that comparison game to

um, not letting it get in your head and, and say be, um, do it with as

much of you in there as as possible.

Yeah.

Yep.

Exactly.

Great.

Well thanks so much for coming on Sarah, and sharing your

experience with podcasting and.

Would love to listen to the podcast.

If you can find it out or if you have a link or anything, I can

pop a link in the show notes.

Um, yeah, it'd be really exciting to, to have a listen to it and

see How many episodes did you do?

Out of interest, how many, how many did you do?

I

did four.

Do you know that's, did a lot more than fired up

but's.

Still a lot more.

I'm looking at some stats today actually.

And that's still a lot more than a lot of podcasts.

I only have one episode.

But you started and you did it, so you still achieved four episodes.

So I think that's really great.

Anyway, did four.

Thank you.

Appreciate that.

Cool.

Well thanks for coming on,

Sarah.

Catch up with you soon.

Thank you for having Thanks.

All right.

Take care.

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