What does it take to instigate and implement digital transformation in a vertical that’s slow to change? Jack Newton founded Clio, a legal-tech SaaS company, with the idea of revolutionizing legal services through cloud-based technology. 13 years later, Jack is the CEO of the billion-dollar company, an author, and seen as a thought leader in the legal-tech space. In this episode, he shares the obstacles he faced along the way and what the legal industry’s future looks like.
Press play to hear Jack Newton’s thoughts on…
The One-Vendor Advantage
“We could go really deep on a vertical like legal, even though on the surface it looks like a niche opportunity almost. If you provide true and deep value to that vertical, you're going to have an unreasonable right to win categorically, in that vertical... customers really want a vendor of record. As much as possible, they want to be able to buy all of their technology, all of their services, from one vendor.”
Why DIY Integrations Are Not Ideal
“Even though integrations between products are possible, at the end of the day there are very few customers that want to figure out how do I cobble together 15 different products into one through a number of integrations, and maybe a bunch of duct tape, when they can have one cohesive experience in one product?”
Becoming Client-Centric
“[T]here's a whole new way of thinking about legal services, in a way that is client-centered. If you embrace this client-centered thinking, you embrace this new way of thinking about the way you can design, price, and package your legal services. There's an enormous opportunity to drive massive competitive differentiation.”
When you go deep on a vertical,
Speaker:there is huge opportunity
Speaker:to expand wallet share and
Speaker:expand your average revenue per
Speaker:customer over time. Furthermore,
Speaker:what's become clear over the
Speaker:years is that you can drive much
Speaker:more efficient customer
Speaker:acquisition economics in a
Speaker:vertical play versus a
Speaker:horizontal play.
Speaker:That's Jack Newton, co-founder
Speaker:and CEO of Clio, a company
Speaker:that's pioneering SaaS for the
Speaker:legal industry. Jack is a cloud
Speaker:visionary. He recognized the
Speaker:importance of vertical SaaS
Speaker:early on and went all in on
Speaker:building the legal tech sector.
Speaker:Now, 14 years later, Clio is a
Speaker:market leader, and in April of
Speaker:2021, the company became a newly
Speaker:minted unicorn with a valuation
Speaker:of $1.6 billion. CEO of a
Speaker:billion-dollar company is just
Speaker:one of Jack's accomplishments.
Speaker:In 2017, he was named Ernst &
Speaker:Young's Software-as-a-Service
Speaker:Entrepreneur, and in 2020, he
Speaker:was named one of Canada's most
Speaker:admired CEOs. He's also the
Speaker:author of "The Client-Centered
Speaker:Law Firm," a top 20 legal book
Speaker:on Amazon. Today, Jack shares
Speaker:his insights on what it takes to
Speaker:build a successful software
Speaker:company and how to drive SaaS
Speaker:adoption, especially in a sector
Speaker:like the legal field, which has
Speaker:been slow to change. This is
Speaker:Daniel Saks, co-CEO of AppDirect,
Speaker:and it's time to decode vertical
Speaker:SaaS. Welcome to "Decoding
Speaker:Digital," a podcast for
Speaker:innovators looking to thrive in
Speaker:the digital economy. I'm your
Speaker:host, Daniel Saks, and I'll sit
Speaker:down with other founders, CEOs,
Speaker:and changemakers to decode the
Speaker:trends that are transforming the
Speaker:way we work. Let's decode. Jack,
Speaker:welcome to Decoding Digital.
Speaker:Thanks for having me.
Speaker:For sure. Before we dive into
Speaker:the interview, I want to
Speaker:congratulate you on your recent
Speaker:funding announcement. Big news,
Speaker:Clio reached a $1.6 billion
Speaker:valuation, giving you unicorn
Speaker:status, so big congrats.
Speaker:Thank you.
Speaker:I know you were one of the first
Speaker:founders to have a vision for
Speaker:the potential of vertical SaaS.
Speaker:Clio is specifically focused on
Speaker:the legal sector. Obviously,
Speaker:vertical SaaS has become a huge
Speaker:category, and there's a huge
Speaker:transformation coming about in
Speaker:bringing the legal industry to
Speaker:the cloud. Tell us what the
Speaker:founding story was and how you
Speaker:got Clio started.
Speaker:Way back in 2007, and that
Speaker:is truly the early days of SaaS
Speaker:in general, Salesforce was still
Speaker:early in it's growth journey
Speaker:back then, and what my co-
Speaker:founder Ryan Gauvreau and I saw
Speaker:at that moment was the fact that
Speaker:the cloud was going to change
Speaker:everything. What was really
Speaker:obvious to us was that, this was
Speaker:a once-in-a-lifetime kind
Speaker:of opportunity to catch a wave
Speaker:of digital transformation that
Speaker:you're lucky if it comes along
Speaker:once, or maybe twice, in your
Speaker:lifetime, and that it was going
Speaker:to radically transform almost
Speaker:every industry out there. With
Speaker:that conviction, we became what
Speaker:I describe sometimes as a, two
Speaker:hammers looking for a nail. What
Speaker:we really understood deeply was
Speaker:the transformative impact that
Speaker:the cloud was going to have, and
Speaker:then went and turned our
Speaker:attention to what industry do we
Speaker:think we could apply this
Speaker:transformation to and have some
Speaker:really profound impact. We were
Speaker:looking for an industry that was
Speaker:not just a great business
Speaker:opportunity, but that we thought
Speaker:there would be potentially a
Speaker:great mission-driven opportunity
Speaker:to help drive transformation in
Speaker:that industry, as well. Thanks
Speaker:to some work that Ryan was doing
Speaker:on the legal side, we pretty
Speaker:quickly homed in on legal as
Speaker:being one of those industries
Speaker:that was ripe for transformation,
Speaker:and was in particular ripe for
Speaker:transformation by being
Speaker:transformed by the Internet. If
Speaker:you look at the legal industry --
Speaker:I think this was very true in
Speaker:2007, and frankly it was still
Speaker:mostly true in the year 2020 as
Speaker:well -- the legal industry is
Speaker:one of the last major industries
Speaker:to be fundamentally transformed
Speaker:by technology. Furthermore, one
Speaker:of the last industries to be
Speaker:fundamentally transformed by the
Speaker:Internet. If you look at the
Speaker:way a lawyer was practicing law
Speaker:in the year 2020, it wasn't
Speaker:all that different than the way
Speaker:they were practicing law in 1980.
Speaker:With the benefit of 40 years of
Speaker:technology and transformation in
Speaker:other industries. What we saw
Speaker:pretty quickly, and honed in on
Speaker:the legal industry as an
Speaker:opportunity, was let's catch
Speaker:this massive technology
Speaker:opportunity in the form of the
Speaker:cloud, and bring that to legal.
Speaker:With the underlying thesis that
Speaker:what would finally unlock the
Speaker:massive opportunity to transform
Speaker:legal with technology, was the
Speaker:ease of accessing cloud-based
Speaker:technology. That the
Speaker:traditional, on prem, server-
Speaker:based software distribution
Speaker:model was so high-friction, that
Speaker:it never caught hold in legal,
Speaker:but with the benefit of the
Speaker:cloud and that lower barrier to
Speaker:entry, both from a deployment
Speaker:standpoint and a cost standpoint,
Speaker:would we potentially be able to
Speaker:unlock that opportune in the
Speaker:legal industry. We started
Speaker:building Clio in 2007. I'm a
Speaker:computer science guy by training.
Speaker:Ryan had a background in
Speaker:technology, and was working on
Speaker:his MBA when we founded the
Speaker:company. We rolled up our
Speaker:sleeves and started doing
Speaker:everything. In building the
Speaker:software, doing the marketing,
Speaker:doing initial sales, and
Speaker:launched the product officially
Speaker:in 2008. Cut to 13 years later,
Speaker:and Cleo is an almost 600-person
Speaker:organization, growing extremely
Speaker:rapidly. Operating out of five
Speaker:offices worldwide, as you
Speaker:mentioned, just achieved unicorn
Speaker:status with this new 1.6 billion
Speaker:US evaluation, and some pretty
Speaker:amazing investors coming onboard
Speaker:to support us on our next stage
Speaker:of the journey.
Speaker:It's incredible. I remember in
Speaker:2009, when we were starting
Speaker:AppDirect, one of the first
Speaker:things that we did was create a
Speaker:list of the SaaS companies we
Speaker:could find out there based on
Speaker:category. I remember it had
Speaker:everyone from Box, or Dropbox,
Speaker:or DocuSign, MailChimp,
Speaker:FreshBooks. They were all in
Speaker:their infancy. The common thing
Speaker:was that they were all
Speaker:horizontal. The aggregate market
Speaker:value of that list then was
Speaker:maybe sub-five billion dollars.
Speaker:It's now probably over half a
Speaker:trillion. It's funny because I
Speaker:think you were ahead of your
Speaker:time. Did you see it at the time,
Speaker:and saying "look there's going
Speaker:to be SaaS for every vertical,
Speaker:so I'm going to pick legal
Speaker:because that's the best vertical,"
Speaker:or did you solve a pain point
Speaker:that you identified for the
Speaker:legal industry, because it was
Speaker:slower to transform and adopt
Speaker:technology?
Speaker:Yeah, it's a great question. I
Speaker:do think we're really early to
Speaker:the vertical SaaS party. It's so
Speaker:interesting even looking at
Speaker:those first years of fundraising
Speaker:in 2009, 2010. I could
Speaker:tell in the first 10 seconds of
Speaker:the VC meeting, whether this was
Speaker:going to be a no, or a yes and
Speaker:let's learn more. Back in those
Speaker:days what was an immediate end
Speaker:of the discussion for a lot of
Speaker:VCs was the TAM. We've got a
Speaker:million lawyers in the US.
Speaker:There's five million lawyers
Speaker:worldwide. For a lot of VCs,
Speaker:when you walk through those
Speaker:numbers, like I said, you could
Speaker:almost see some glaze over 10
Speaker:seconds into the presentation,
Speaker:because they've immediately got
Speaker:TAM concerns and they're out.
Speaker:What we found fairly early in
Speaker:our journey -- it was around
Speaker:2013, 2014 --
Speaker:was that there was a growing
Speaker:number of VCs that were building
Speaker:conviction around the fact that
Speaker:vertical SaaS had, not just an
Speaker:ability to build a meaningful
Speaker:market, but when you go deep on
Speaker:a vertical, there is huge
Speaker:opportunity to expand wallet
Speaker:share, and expand your average
Speaker:revenue per customer over time.
Speaker:Furthermore, I think what's
Speaker:become really clear over the
Speaker:years, is that you can drive
Speaker:much more efficient customer
Speaker:acquisition, economics, in a
Speaker:vertical play, versus a
Speaker:horizontal play. I think those
Speaker:are some of the things that, way
Speaker:back in 2007, 2008, Ryan
Speaker:and I understood intuitively
Speaker:maybe. That we could go really
Speaker:deep on a vertical like legal,
Speaker:and even though on the surface
Speaker:it looks like a niche
Speaker:opportunity almost. If you
Speaker:provide true and deep value to
Speaker:that vertical, you're going to
Speaker:have an unreasonable right to
Speaker:win categorically, in that
Speaker:vertical. I think in many
Speaker:verticals that we've seen other
Speaker:companies, like ServiceTitan for
Speaker:example, really prove out this
Speaker:hypothesis in a big way in the
Speaker:field-services industry. I think
Speaker:we've seen Clio prove it out in
Speaker:legal. You can point to
Speaker:examples in almost every other
Speaker:vertical, is that customers
Speaker:really want a vendor of record.
Speaker:As much as possible, they want
Speaker:to be able to buy all of their
Speaker:technology, all of their
Speaker:services, from one vendor. That
Speaker:was an early bet we made on with
Speaker:Clio in the legal vertical. This
Speaker:bet that there's a strong
Speaker:preference on the customer's
Speaker:side to have a single vendor and
Speaker:a unified experience. Even
Speaker:though integrations between
Speaker:products are possible, at the
Speaker:end of the day there's very few
Speaker:customers that want to figure
Speaker:out how do I cobble together 15
Speaker:different products into one
Speaker:through a number of integrations,
Speaker:and maybe a bunch of duct tape,
Speaker:when they can have one cohesive
Speaker:experience in one product?
Speaker:That's really the heart of our
Speaker:thesis for what ended up being
Speaker:the huge legal opportunity. I
Speaker:believe the other hypothesis we
Speaker:had, that ended up proving
Speaker:correct, was that the cloud was,
Speaker:in fact, an enabling technology
Speaker:to unlock this previously
Speaker:very low technology adoption
Speaker:industry.
Speaker:Clearly, digital transformation
Speaker:is hard, you had this vision,
Speaker:but take me through what the
Speaker:lawyer's life was pre-Clio, and
Speaker:then the effort that you had to
Speaker:go through to get them on, and
Speaker:now their life today.
Speaker:It's a great question. This was
Speaker:the challenge in 2008, and it's
Speaker:still the challenge today, but
Speaker:there's a lot of lawyers that
Speaker:will use pen and paper. They
Speaker:will use some aggregate of
Speaker:Microsoft Outlook, Excel,
Speaker:and Word, to manage
Speaker:every day-to-day aspect of their
Speaker:law firm. They'll take time
Speaker:records, time slips, that
Speaker:they've literally recorded on
Speaker:pieces of paper, input those
Speaker:into Excel, take the Excel sheet,
Speaker:go and try to input it into
Speaker:Microsoft Word, and create an
Speaker:invoice for their client. We
Speaker:talked to some law firms that
Speaker:literally spend four or five
Speaker:days at the beginning of every
Speaker:month, where their law firm
Speaker:basically grinds to a halt
Speaker:collating all of these paper
Speaker:documents, going through this
Speaker:Excel-based process, putting
Speaker:these invoices in Word, going
Speaker:through the iterations of the
Speaker:pre-bills, and finally getting
Speaker:these bills out the door. It's
Speaker:just mind-blowing, the amount of
Speaker:manual effort that is going on
Speaker:in the industry. We're still
Speaker:early innings in driving this
Speaker:digital transformation in legal.
Speaker:There's still a lot of law firms
Speaker:that operate that way. Really
Speaker:it's a matter of getting in
Speaker:front of these customers and
Speaker:letting them know there's a
Speaker:better way. You need a
Speaker:distributive way of working. You
Speaker:need to leverage the cloud.
Speaker:We'll talk to these stakeholders,
Speaker:and it could be the receptionist,
Speaker:it could be the paralegal, it
Speaker:could be the lawyer themselves,
Speaker:we explain what kind of value
Speaker:Clio can provide to them, and
Speaker:you just see the light bulb go
Speaker:off. You can hear the
Speaker:excitement in their voice when
Speaker:they understand the kind of
Speaker:value that Clio can offer their
Speaker:law firm.
Speaker:It's very powerful, and I know
Speaker:that buyers see you as a thought
Speaker:leader, educating them on how to
Speaker:make this digital transformation.
Speaker:I know last year you published a
Speaker:book called The Client-Centered
Speaker:Law Firm. Can you give some more
Speaker:context as to why you wrote the
Speaker:book, and some of the takeaways?
Speaker:Around 10 years into this
Speaker:journey of building Clio, I
Speaker:started to feel like I've had
Speaker:thousands and thousands of
Speaker:conversations with legal
Speaker:professionals at the best-run
Speaker:law firms in the world, and
Speaker:started to feel like I had the
Speaker:kind of perspective that maybe a
Speaker:McKinsey consulting or Boston
Speaker:Consulting group has on
Speaker:businesses, where they talk to
Speaker:the best of the best. They
Speaker:start to understand what the
Speaker:best practices are, and what set
Speaker:them apart from their peers. I
Speaker:felt like this perspective I was
Speaker:starting to form on the legal
Speaker:industry and the opportunity was
Speaker:similar. My takeaway, what I've
Speaker:extracted from those thousands
Speaker:and thousands of conversations
Speaker:was a few things. One, lawyers
Speaker:go through law school and learn
Speaker:how to become amazing lawyers,
Speaker:but over the course of their
Speaker:three years of law school they
Speaker:learn virtually nothing about
Speaker:building a business or being an
Speaker:entrepreneur. They don't learn
Speaker:how to develop a product. They
Speaker:don't learn how to market. They
Speaker:don't learn how to even manage
Speaker:cash flow. There's a huge risk
Speaker:for the average lawyer, that if
Speaker:they graduated from law school,
Speaker:and they go out and hang a
Speaker:shingle, and run their own law
Speaker:firm, as a solo, as 50 percent
Speaker:of all lawyers do, or they go
Speaker:form a small law firm with a
Speaker:handful of other colleagues,
Speaker:that's around 80 percent of the
Speaker:legal market, as either solo or
Speaker:firms of less than 10 lawyers,
Speaker:they're going to be set up to
Speaker:really struggle. Only if you're
Speaker:joining a big firm and
Speaker:benefiting from the machinery of
Speaker:that big firm, will you be set
Speaker:up in a way that your pure legal
Speaker:knowledge will help you succeed.
Speaker:This key insight for me was,
Speaker:lawyers need a bit of a handbook
Speaker:on how to thrive as a lawyer,
Speaker:and how to be a successful
Speaker:entrepreneur, but unfortunately,
Speaker:precedent is also applied really
Speaker:strongly in the business of law,
Speaker:where lawyers feel like the only
Speaker:way you can run a law firm is in
Speaker:the same way it's been ran in
Speaker:the past by other lawyers. You
Speaker:look at the pervasiveness of the
Speaker:billable hour model, for example.
Speaker:Something as straightforward as
Speaker:that. Most lawyers charge for
Speaker:their time by the hour. On the
Speaker:other hand, there's virtually no
Speaker:clients that want to buy legal
Speaker:services by the hour. Other
Speaker:professions like accounting have
Speaker:shifted fulsomely away from
Speaker:billable hour to value-based
Speaker:billing, and fixed fee billing,
Speaker:and billing based on outcomes.
Speaker:There's been an enormous amount
Speaker:of friction in that shift in
Speaker:legal partially because of the
Speaker:inertia that this precedent
Speaker:thinking drives in the legal
Speaker:profession. What I tried to
Speaker:distill in my book is a way of
Speaker:proposing a pretty radical shift
Speaker:in how lawyers think about
Speaker:delivering legal services.
Speaker:Instead of thinking about
Speaker:delivering legal services in the
Speaker:traditional way, which I would
Speaker:describe as a lawyer-centric way
Speaker:of delivering legal services.
Speaker:Even if you look at something as
Speaker:foundational as the billable
Speaker:hour model. I think it's a great
Speaker:example of a very lawyer-centric
Speaker:concept. It's good for lawyers,
Speaker:it helps protect lawyer's
Speaker:profitability, it helps protect
Speaker:lawyer's downside risk, but it's
Speaker:not at all good for the client.
Speaker:It is not client-centered. What
Speaker:I posit in this book is there's
Speaker:a whole new way of thinking
Speaker:about legal services, in a way
Speaker:that is client-centered. If you
Speaker:embrace this client-centered
Speaker:thinking, you embrace this new
Speaker:way of thinking about the way
Speaker:you can design, price, and
Speaker:package your legal services,
Speaker:there's an enormous opportunity
Speaker:to drive massive competitive
Speaker:differentiation, and to tap into
Speaker:what I describe as the latent
Speaker:legal market. A latent legal
Speaker:market is what I've refereed to
Speaker:as a portion of the market that
Speaker:is not able to access legal
Speaker:services. Around 77 percent of
Speaker:consumers that have legal issues
Speaker:any given year do not see those
Speaker:legal issues resolved by a
Speaker:lawyer. You've maybe heard the
Speaker:term "the access to justice gap."
Speaker:That's really the access to
Speaker:justice gap, in a nutshell is,
Speaker:there's a very small minority of
Speaker:legal issues that actually see
Speaker:resolution through lawyers and
Speaker:the legal system, 77 percent of
Speaker:legal issues are not
Speaker:resolved by lawyers. That latent
Speaker:legal market is something that
Speaker:can be unlocked through client-
Speaker:centered thinking. This book,
Speaker:The Client-Centered Law Firm
Speaker:that I wrote, is really a
Speaker:handbook and a playbook for how
Speaker:to think innovatively about
Speaker:designing your legal services.
Speaker:How to think like an
Speaker:entrepreneur. How to build
Speaker:empathy for your clients. How
Speaker:to rethink legal service
Speaker:delivery in a way that is better
Speaker:for consumers, helps consumers
Speaker:see better legal outcomes, is
Speaker:better for lawyers, in that it
Speaker:helps make lawyers more
Speaker:successful and more profitable.
Speaker:Better for access to justice, in
Speaker:that if we actually execute on
Speaker:this vision of the client-
Speaker:centered law firm, we're going
Speaker:to help bridge that access to
Speaker:justice gap, and we're going to
Speaker:help deliver legal services to
Speaker:that vast latent legal market
Speaker:that is currently underserved.
Speaker:Let's shift to your personal
Speaker:psychology, because you've said
Speaker:that the legal industry is the
Speaker:last major industries that
Speaker:resisted digital transformation.
Speaker:That must mean you get a lot of
Speaker:no's, and a lot of people who
Speaker:say you're crazy. How do you
Speaker:deal with them?
Speaker:For one, I describe myself as a
Speaker:pathological optimist, so even
Speaker:if I hear no all day long, I'm
Speaker:still going to be optimistic
Speaker:that there's a yes right around
Speaker:the corner. I think that
Speaker:resilience is really important,
Speaker:and that embedded optimism is
Speaker:important in navigating all the
Speaker:knows you're going to hear. It's
Speaker:been said and commented on many
Speaker:times that many of the best
Speaker:startup ideas sound crazy to
Speaker:start, and some investors talk
Speaker:about using a yardstick now, how
Speaker:crazy does the idea sound? If
Speaker:it doesn't sound crazy enough,
Speaker:they're almost not interested in
Speaker:it, because it's not
Speaker:transformative enough. Certainly
Speaker:back in 2008, when I was walking
Speaker:around these legal conferences,
Speaker:talking about the idea of
Speaker:storing your data in the cloud,
Speaker:it was a polarizing concept. I
Speaker:had deep conviction about back
Speaker:in 2008 and still have today is
Speaker:the idea that the average solo
Speaker:or small firm lawyer is further
Speaker:ahead storing their data in the
Speaker:cloud than they are trying to
Speaker:manage their own on-premise
Speaker:system and trying to keep that
Speaker:system secure and up to date.
Speaker:That was a controversial opinion
Speaker:in 2008. I actually think it's
Speaker:probably almost generally
Speaker:accepted wisdom today. I caught
Speaker:a lot of flack for that
Speaker:perspective of that opinion back
Speaker:in 2008, 2009, 2010. I had
Speaker:lawyers calling me and Ryan and
Speaker:Clio outright irresponsible for
Speaker:even allowing lawyers to store
Speaker:their data in the cloud. How
Speaker:dare we kind of conversations?
Speaker:To navigate all of that to your
Speaker:question around mindset I think,
Speaker:number one, you do need to have
Speaker:optimism, you do need to have
Speaker:deep conviction that you're
Speaker:right. You also need to be able
Speaker:to persuade us not just hearing
Speaker:the know and then walking away.
Speaker:We listened to the reasons that
Speaker:people supported the no with and
Speaker:then thought how do we tackle
Speaker:these? How do we block by block,
Speaker:unpack this resistance and get
Speaker:to yes? I'll give you a really
Speaker:concrete example of that. The
Speaker:number one thing we heard over
Speaker:the course of 2008 and 2009 was
Speaker:this concern about, is it
Speaker:ethical for lawyers to store
Speaker:their data in the cloud? Is
Speaker:this even allowed from a
Speaker:compliance perspective from the
Speaker:State Bar, for example, that
Speaker:they're licensed to and we
Speaker:realized quickly that we can
Speaker:either get dragged along by this
Speaker:discussion, or we can try to
Speaker:lead it? We said, if we can
Speaker:lead it, we're going to be able
Speaker:to lead the discussion to where
Speaker:we want it to go, which is this
Speaker:conclusion that storing your
Speaker:data in the cloud is more secure
Speaker:than storing it on premise.
Speaker:What we started doing was
Speaker:educating the industry. We
Speaker:started writing white papers. We
Speaker:started giving talks at every
Speaker:conference we could get a
Speaker:speaking slot at. We started
Speaker:lobbying directly with the State
Speaker:Bar associations to get ethics
Speaker:opinions that were positive and
Speaker:affirmative about the fact that
Speaker:storing your data in the cloud
Speaker:was ethically acceptable. We
Speaker:started to see a huge amount of
Speaker:success there and became, over
Speaker:time, thought leaders on this
Speaker:topic, where we're invited to
Speaker:speak at the biggest conferences
Speaker:in legal about the security and
Speaker:ethics of cloud computing for
Speaker:lawyers, and around why this was
Speaker:acceptable. In hindsight, now
Speaker:we're referred to as the people
Speaker:and the company that helped
Speaker:drive this transformation in
Speaker:legal, and the adoption of cloud
Speaker:technology in legal. I think
Speaker:listening to the no, and having
Speaker:conviction that that person is
Speaker:wrong, is really important, but
Speaker:then the onus is on you to
Speaker:almost persuade them that
Speaker:they're wrong, and that might be
Speaker:a very long game to get there,
Speaker:but that's the long game we
Speaker:played, and like I said, 13
Speaker:years later, in the legal
Speaker:industry it's finally generally
Speaker:accepted wisdom that the cloud
Speaker:is acceptable for lawyers to use.
Speaker:We're even shifting into a new
Speaker:world where it's almost viewed
Speaker:as a competitive disadvantage if
Speaker:you're not leveraging the cloud
Speaker:in some way as a law firm.
Speaker:I definitely think you
Speaker:pinpointed one of the key things
Speaker:that we observe, which is,
Speaker:change is constant and people
Speaker:need to adapt, and if they don't
Speaker:they're going to have a
Speaker:challenge in the digital ride.
Speaker:That became very prevalent in
Speaker:COVID, with examples like
Speaker:restaurants, or other
Speaker:establishments. If you didn't
Speaker:have delivery or digital
Speaker:footprint, then you'd struggle
Speaker:and you'd be forced to
Speaker:immediately digital transform.
Speaker:With Clio, did you have a
Speaker:similar impact in COVID? how did
Speaker:COVID impact your business and
Speaker:the legal community in general?
Speaker:Great question. Like many other
Speaker:industries we saw a pretty
Speaker:profound and a pretty rapid
Speaker:shift in how lawyers needed to
Speaker:run their practice as soon as
Speaker:COVID hit. What we've seen with
Speaker:COVID is 10 years of digital
Speaker:transformation in legal, or more,
Speaker:I would argue, compressed into
Speaker:10 or 12 months. It's really
Speaker:been that scale of change. Our
Speaker:product roadmap, for example, is
Speaker:the product roadmap we would've
Speaker:been thinking about in the year
Speaker:2030 really. Now it's a product
Speaker:roadmap we're thinking about for
Speaker:the year 2020. These kinds of
Speaker:changes -- especially in an
Speaker:industry like legal that is
Speaker:fairly slow to evolve -- they
Speaker:wouldn't have played out over
Speaker:the natural course of events. We
Speaker:really needed this crucible that
Speaker:ended up being COVID-19, to
Speaker:catalyze a lot of this change.
Speaker:I think it's a net-positive
Speaker:change in a lot of ways, despite
Speaker:the obvious, huge human toll,
Speaker:and economic hardship it's
Speaker:caused for many. For the legal
Speaker:industry, it is going to emerge,
Speaker:I believe, better positioned to
Speaker:thrive, and better position to
Speaker:actually deliver legal services
Speaker:to more people thanks to the
Speaker:transformational change that
Speaker:COVID has helped drive. A big
Speaker:part of that is around
Speaker:technology adoption, and being
Speaker:able to lower the barriers to
Speaker:accessing legal services, and
Speaker:from the lawyer's side, being
Speaker:able to lower the cost of
Speaker:delivering legal services. To
Speaker:give you a really concrete
Speaker:example of what that looks like,
Speaker:one of the largest structural
Speaker:overhead costs any law
Speaker:firm has -- beyond it's human
Speaker:cost of labor and staffing the
Speaker:law firm -- is the physical
Speaker:space. The often expensive AAA
Speaker:downtown office space that law
Speaker:firms invest in to, most of the
Speaker:time, impress clients. What
Speaker:we've seen with COVID is that, a
Speaker:lot of clients, a lot of law
Speaker:firms, have realized, we
Speaker:actually don't need that
Speaker:expensive office space anymore.
Speaker:We can deliver legal services
Speaker:just as well. In fact, by a lot
Speaker:of measures, better, over the
Speaker:Internet. With our clients
Speaker:sitting at home in their home
Speaker:office, with our lawyers sitting
Speaker:at home in their home office,
Speaker:and everyone's got the
Speaker:convenience of instant access to
Speaker:that legal advice and legal
Speaker:resource, without all the
Speaker:friction of a meeting in that
Speaker:bricks-and-mortar office.
Speaker:That's a pretty exciting time to
Speaker:be innovating in legal, because
Speaker:it's a brave new world that's
Speaker:going to, I believe, help open
Speaker:up that latent legal market over
Speaker:time.
Speaker:You talked about the last 10
Speaker:years accelerating, let's fast-
Speaker:forward 10 years to 2030, what
Speaker:conviction do you have today --
Speaker:similar to the conviction that
Speaker:you had for cloud -- that's
Speaker:going to be equally as
Speaker:transformative 10 years for your
Speaker:customers?
Speaker:The conviction I have for the
Speaker:year 2030 is that the vast
Speaker:majority of legal services will
Speaker:be delivered in that cloud-based
Speaker:way. That's a technology shift
Speaker:that Clio's hoping to enable.
Speaker:The second piece that is more
Speaker:aspirational, that I would love
Speaker:to help drive into legal
Speaker:industry as well, is a shift to
Speaker:a more client-centered way of
Speaker:delivering legal services.
Speaker:That's both a technology problem
Speaker:and a mindset problem. We
Speaker:need the mindset of the legal
Speaker:industry to shift to this client-
Speaker:centered way of thinking. The
Speaker:way I think about it is that I
Speaker:want the book, and other
Speaker:educational materials to help
Speaker:drive that mindset shift, but I
Speaker:also want Clio the technology
Speaker:platform to automatically
Speaker:encourage lawyers that are
Speaker:using it to operate in a client-
Speaker:centered way. I want it to
Speaker:almost be, call it the default
Speaker:way of operating a law firm. If
Speaker:you adopt Clio, is to be a
Speaker:client-centered law firm. We
Speaker:make it easy and frictionless,
Speaker:and the software's almost
Speaker:opinionated in how you do things.
Speaker:Opinionated in the sense that,
Speaker:the way you think, you should be
Speaker:a client-centered, and we're
Speaker:going to make it really easy and
Speaker:frictionless for it to be client-
Speaker:centered. By the way, the
Speaker:benefits of that as a law firm
Speaker:are that you're going to be more
Speaker:profitable. You're going to have
Speaker:happier clients. You're going to
Speaker:have better outcomes for your
Speaker:clients. You're going to see
Speaker:faster growth because they're
Speaker:feeding into this flywheel of
Speaker:growth for your law firm, by
Speaker:leaving positive reviews, by
Speaker:referring friends and family to
Speaker:you. We want to make that almost
Speaker:an automatic side-effect of
Speaker:using Clio, is being client-
Speaker:centered as well. So the year
Speaker:2030, I hope will be a year that
Speaker:I can look at and say "We've
Speaker:made a huge amount of progress
Speaker:in making the legal industry
Speaker:both cloud-based, and client-
Speaker:centered."
Speaker:What exciting times ahead,
Speaker:really believe in that mindset
Speaker:change, and we look at leaders
Speaker:that are transforming the
Speaker:economy, we call them digital
Speaker:heroes. I think you exemplify
Speaker:those characteristics. Congrats
Speaker:to you and your recent success,
Speaker:and all the opportunity you have
Speaker:in the future. Thanks for
Speaker:joining Jack.
Speaker:Thanks for having me.
Speaker:On the next episode of Decoding
Speaker:Digital.
Speaker:I think it's really easy to
Speaker:compare your chapter 1 to
Speaker:someone else's chapter 25. I
Speaker:think there's a comparison game
Speaker:we all play. It's just human
Speaker:psychology, it's human
Speaker:programming, right? It becomes
Speaker:overwhelming when you compare
Speaker:yourself to someone else, so
Speaker:it's just easier to do you
Speaker:versus you, one percent better
Speaker:every single day.
Speaker:CEO of ClickFlow, and host of
Speaker:the "Leveling Up" podcast, Eric
Speaker:Siu.
Speaker:Thanks for listening to Decoding
Speaker:Digital. Make sure you never
Speaker:miss an episode by subscribing
Speaker:to this show in your favorite
Speaker:podcast player. To learn more,
Speaker:visit decodingdigital.com. Until