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Operations at Enterprise Scale - Paul Wilson
Episode 2 • 8th October 2023 • RevOps FM • Justin Norris
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Operations can be difficult in organizations of any size, but in large companies, there are special challenges.

What does it take to succeed as an ops leader in the world's biggest enterprises?

Today's guest is a former marketing ops leader from Marketo, Adobe, Slack, and Salesforce. He delivers a master class on navigating enterprise complexity.

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About Today's Guest

Paul Wilson has been a sales and marketing leader, consultant, and marketing operations executive at some of the largest companies in the world, including Marketo, Adobe, Slack, Salesforce, and OneTrust. Today he is the CEO of GTM Systems.

From Paul's LinkedIn: "GTM Systems is dedicated to reinventing the intersection of marketing, sales, and customer success operations into a unified go-to-market operations framework."

https://www.linkedin.com/in/pwtoday/

Key Topics

  • [00:00] - Introduction
  • [01:24] - Which type of work/company size has been most rewarding for Paul. Enjoyment from working with people to solve challenges.
  • [03:54] - What to do when joining a new enterprise. Establishing the mandate of the role and what resources you have.
  • [05:54] - The role of marketing ops in the enterprise. Important distinctions between MOPs and Sales Ops. Lack of sandbox environments in the MarTech stack creating greater risk. Everything is in production. Marketers are reliant on their tools to deliver experiences and are more impacted by issues.
  • [09:00] - Why we can't we have sandboxes in MarTech. Possible perception of finance that this is less critical. Proximity of CRM to IT. Growing distinction between operations and technology in many companies. Business Systems / IT teams absorbing sales tech.
  • [16:09] - Relationship between marketing operations and marketing strategy. The right way to relate to stakeholders. Need for campaign engineering and MOPS to have a voice in marketing planning discussions. Analogy to a structural engineer in discussions of building construction.
  • [23:50] - The biggest changes someone should expect moving from a smaller org to an enterprise company. Big companies don't move quickly. Importance of establishing relationships with navigators who can teach you. The experience taught Paul how to communicate effort, developing tiered messaging for different levels of the organization.
  • [36:28] - Inevitability of dysfunction in an enterprise. Will all enterprises approach being a real-life Dilbert strip? Some dysfunction comes with the territory.
  • [40:21] - The coolest/most complex projects are in enterprise. Paul's experience doing large projects and the thrill they bring.
  • [43:04] - Is Paul a lucky charm for M&A?
  • [43:41] - The implications of AI be for marketing. Justin sees some benefit as a convenience / efficiency tool but is skeptical of generative capabilities. Paul believes AI will be revolutionary, but we are still in the "dot-matrix" phase. Discussion of ethical concerns.
  • [48:56] - Paul's new firm, GTM Systems.

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Transcripts

Justin Norris:

We all know that ops is hard in a company of any size,

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but in the biggest enterprises,

there's some special challenges.

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First off, there's more of everything.

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There's more people.

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Process, technology projects

are more complicated.

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Communication takes more time.

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. And so the question I wanted to ask

today is, what does it actually take

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to succeed as an ops leader in some

of these crazy complex environments?

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Today's guest is the great Paul Wilson.

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Today he is the CEO of GTM Systems, which

is an agency focused on GTM operations.

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But before that You've been a marketing

ops executive at a dream resume of

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companies, Marketo, Adobe, slack,

Salesforce, I have to think you real

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high point for you was probably when

you got to work with me at Perkuto.

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Am I right?

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You can.

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You could, yeah.

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Paul Wilson: absolutely

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Justin Norris: have to say that.

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really I just wanna

welcome you to the show.

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Thank you for being here

great to speak with you.

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Paul Wilson: Oh, it's, it's an honor.

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you.

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and I have a long history of and

coffee and discussions off topic,

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so this is gonna be awesome.

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Justin Norris: I listed a bunch of

things that you, that you've done,

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and it wasn't even, you half of it.

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you've been a consultant, you've been

in-house, you've been big, small, you

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now are starting an entrepreneurial

journey, running your own shop.

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I'm just curious, What type of

work have you found so far has

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been the most rewarding for you?

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Paul Wilson: the work that's the most

enjoyable and the work that kind of

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drives me forward is, the human factors,

the solving challenges with people parts.

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So it isn't a specific technology

isn't a specific data challenge or

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getting integrations to, to run.

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Those are the endorphin

rushes of what systems can do.

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When you finally see a green light from

the red light, that's always great.

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Justin Norris: I know that feeling.

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Paul Wilson: the, the real factor me

has always been in, in pretty much

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every role that I've done, either with

technology or in other parts of the world.

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It's the human factors of working with

others to solve problems that are.

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or challenges that are really in the way.

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Justin Norris: So when you, when you

talk about those people factors, do you

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mean, working with those other people

kind of ops field or collaborating

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with your stakeholders other teams

where you need to, you know, with

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sales or in marketing or whatever.

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Or is it both?

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Paul Wilson: Yeah, it's definitely a blend

of both because you know, when there are,

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when there are challenges to address,

like, let's think about if, if we put it

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in the context of an example, if you're

working on a migration, the connective

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tissue that the team doing, the work I.

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Has, and that work

needs to be coordinated.

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And, and, and the work needs to flow.

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And when those people work

well together, it's enjoyable.

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You know, even if the challenges

themselves are almost insurmountable.

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The comradery and the

connection is important.

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And then in terms of that stakeholder

alignment you know, being a, a people

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pleaser, I've often, you know, it,

it is a very good feeling to feel

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as if you're solving a challenge

that your customer, internal or

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otherwise is looking to see solved.

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So again, that is a partnership to

me, is ensuring that, you know, the.

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teams doing the work, the teams leading,

the organizational change, sort of

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all of the layers are the same canoe,

paddling in the same direction, really

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trying to pull that problem forward.

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And those are those moments that

I feel really most energized and

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like I, I want to do that work.

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Justin Norris: let's unpack

that a little bit more.

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Like had a number of

experiences where you've.

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stepped into a pretty big role at

some of these places and with a

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pretty big mandate, I know, to migrate

huge systems or, integrate acquired

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companies how do you start that process?

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Because the beginning, you're coming in

and you don't have those relationships.

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How do you kind of map out an organization

and set yourself up for success?

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'

Paul Wilson: to me the first most important investigation

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to do in the roles that I have

moved into has been establishing.

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What I believe the mandate of the

role needs to be comparing that

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and pushing around to find out what

is the organization's expectation

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of the mandate of the role.

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So if

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Justin Norris: Yeah.

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Paul Wilson: in and I believe that

order to accomplish The operational

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goal set in front of me, like migrate

three systems into one big new system.

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If I believe that the mandate entails

spending dollars, removing people and

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hiring people, I need to be very clear

that that's what I need to deliver the

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magic of making three things turn into

one, and I push and test that with

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the organization that I'm in to say.

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Are you gonna be comfortable

giving me these things?

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Not just with me asking for them.

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Like, will you be

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Justin Norris: Hmm.

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Paul Wilson: to empower me?

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And if the answer is no, it

isn't necessarily that you throw

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up your hands and you leave.

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It's that, okay, well, I.

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What do I have?

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Like what are, what are

the edges of that mandate?

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Because in order to help work with

others and to be a part of a team that's

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running that transformation, I need to

be able to provide the information to

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the team I'm working with that says, I.

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Yeah, we're not gonna be able

to hire an agency or we will

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be able to hire, like all

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Justin Norris: Hmm.

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Paul Wilson: the parameters need

to be clear when you're looking to

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embark on a transformational change,

you don't want to over commit.

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And I've been in the, in circumstances

where, you know, unfortunately the rules

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change or budgets move and whatnot.

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And so you need to know what the impact

is of that on the mandate that you have.

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So

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Justin Norris: How do you consider, how

do you define the role of marketing ops?

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If what would be in scope and out

of scope from your point of view?

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Paul Wilson: Great question.

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You said that's a, a one hour podcast.

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At its core, one of the, easiest

places to see the practical difference

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between marketing ops and sales ops

is in the simple experience that.

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A lot of us have where you're in a

discussion with the team that's working

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in Salesforce and they talk about the

notions of making changes in sandbox

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and promoting them to production.

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That is not the way

marketing operations works.

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That's not the way that the systems

had been established in the market.

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It'd be great if they did, but they

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: And so what I've

tried to explain to people in sales

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operations before so that they kind

of get the, the picture that it

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isn't just that simple foundational

difference of having a sandbox or not.

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that imagine if the

seller's using Salesforce.

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You are working in their live production

instance of are unable to send an email to

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a prospect delivering them a quote because

of something that's happened or changed

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in the environment, and they're on you

right there telling you to get it fixed or

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requesting that these fields get created

or making this change on the fly and.

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The operational distinction of working

in a live environment that marketers

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are always trying to do things in

means the discipline of control and

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change management and everything

related to how marketing operations

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has to function, needs to provide

the diligence that sales operations.

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Enjoys and having a sandbox in a

production environment without the

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latitude of time, because generally

speaking, there isn't a dependency of.

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What Sales Ops does in Salesforce

to the day-to-day production

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of a sales organization.

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They can still send an email.

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They can pick up the phone, they can

reach out on Slack or LinkedIn or whatever

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it is, and communicate and send things.

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Salesforce isn't the dependent

platform for that occur.

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Marketing.

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The technologies that we work in are

the live environment that deliver

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everything that marketers do.

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so we have a much higher degree of risk.

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We have a much higher degree of

responsibility, and I think that

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where there's challenges is when Have

an expectation that they can just

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request a change and it will happen

without understanding the degree of the

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: interconnectedness of

things the risks that can occur on

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a platform that isn't necessarily

as stable as they may think.

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It's so understanding scope,

understanding all of these things.

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Our internal customers not

understanding what it is that we do.

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Like all of these challenges pile onto the

fact that we're in a, a live production

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environment a hundred percent of the time.

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Justin Norris: But, but why?

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Like, why can't we have a functioning

sand, like marketing automation's

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been around for 15 years?

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Have they not figured this out yet?

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I know that's not, I don't blame you for

it, but why do you ha, could you hazard

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a guess why we can't have nice things?

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Paul Wilson: I, I would hazard the

guess being that the tenuous connection

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in finance's, definition of Marketing

to revenue means that dollars in that

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area of comfort as critical as spending

dollars to make sure that the opportunity

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object in Salesforce never breaks.

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So it it's the cultural notion that I.

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Which needs to go away, honestly,

like go to market is, is everything.

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It's everything from the anonymous

web visit through to the renewal.

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I think establishing a paradigm

that says all of these systems

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are as equally critical in a world

that's pure, almost pure digital.

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So digital experiences are all

experiences be they marketing, sales,

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or customer success experiences.

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So don't get to have fancy things because.

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The history of 15 years has been,

you didn't really need them, did you?

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I mean, You said you did, but

here we are You're doing fine,

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Justin Norris: You are doing it.

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Paul Wilson: You're doing it.

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So we enabled the pain that we're

suffering in today, which Is what being

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in marketing operations is all about.

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Justin Norris: Is less proximity to it.

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A factor , was C R more

it adjacent somehow?

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And so the expectation of proper

environments was there and maybe

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marketing was like, well, they're

just out on the fringes with their

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brochures and their trade shows.

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They could do.

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Paul Wilson: Yeah.

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The, that, that lineage.

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And we're definitely dating

ourselves in having conversations

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of our brochures and whatnot.

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But I think that the, the proximity

to it and the transformation

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that I have seen happen in.

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The enterprise space over

the last, you know, five, to

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seven years is we've seen the.

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The distinction between technology and

operations, you can, I, I now see in

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many organizations where the technology

is considered the property of it.

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Where Salesforce or the c r m is

owned by the IT organization, they

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extend their ITIL methodology on,

you know, you make a request, it gets

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processed, it gets put into a sprint,

it goes through a, a, a mechanism, the

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enterprise organizations have adapted

to that rhythm within sales operations.

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Where know that there will

be another sprint, there will

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be a change that happens.

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The operations teams working in

Salesforce that run the deal desk,

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that use, you know, manage cases that

facilitate the usage by sales and by

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customer support and customer success.

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All of those teams are foundationally

aware that now Salesforce has been

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absorbed into this diligent world of it.

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Marketing technology is still a bit of

a mystery, so there are organizations

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who've attempted to put Marketo and

other marketing automation platforms into

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the IT regime, and I've been adjacent

to and present in the conversations

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Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: IT executives saying, What

do you mean you don't have a sandbox?

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Like there's still just a gap of

understanding and appreciation of

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what that livestock environment

feels like from an operations lens.

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So there will probably be adaptations

that come from vendors like

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Salesforce and Adobe and HubSpot.

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as they try to push farther into those

enterprise organizations where the

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ability and the capability to have full

live environment sandboxes is easier.

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But the reality is, the expectation

of our clients in marketing but

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the email needs to go out tomorrow.

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It has to, it just has to

like, so there's this difficult

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tension that we, that we live in.

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Justin Norris: I experienced

that tension at times.

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Paul Wilson: We all, we all,

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Justin Norris: you, we,

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Paul Wilson: that

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Justin Norris: we live, we we swim

in that tension, this actually to a

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place where I wanted to go, which is I.

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When I started for a long time in

in marketing ops marketing ops,

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marketing automation, marketing

technology, they were almost synonyms.

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I don't think it's ever been that

way in, in sales ops, like you

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alluded to a lot of the sales ops.

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Functions and responsibilities.

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Deal desk comp planning,

territory planning, you know,

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supporting sales leaders.

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Much more of like a, a go to market.

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And strategic, sometimes C B Q.

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Yeah, and, and, and like my own

organization, we have a sales ops team.

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We have a Salesforce team, which kind

of rolls into sales ops but is distinct.

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And then sales ops is more . Sales

process improving our methodology.

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And that distinction , it doesn't

exist with the same level of clarity

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I find in marketing operations.

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I think a lot of practitioners

are still system admins

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primarily, first and foremost.

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Some teams have those other functions,

but . I don't see it in the same way.

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And so I guess I'm curious,

do you think that just doesn't

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exist 'cause it's not needed?

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Or is it, is that where it's

going and it's just like a

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maturation of this function?

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Where, where does it go?

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Paul Wilson: I think it is, it's

largely related to the developmental

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maturity of the organization

that you're, that you're looking

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Justin Norris: I.

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Paul Wilson: So I think that the

landing marketing technology, inside

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marketing spend and marketing process.

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Means in most organizations there

isn't an respect is such a dangerous

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word to say here, but there isn't

an existing appreciation for the

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need for for infrastructure, you

know, the, the, elements of control.

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And so in that marketing operations

world, Almost everybody's an admin because

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almost anybody is gonna be called on to

solve an, solve an immediate problem.

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And I.

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think that the organizations who mature

past that point are a little less

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agile from the marketer's perspective.

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But a little bit more consistent

from the experience and the proper,

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respective privacy and compliance rules,

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the

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: handling of data, like all

of the foundational concerns that I think

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are gonna become much more prevalent.

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Justin Norris: angle into the same

thing might be , to what extent

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should marketing operations influence

or help define marketing strategy?

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Sometimes you see people with titles

like director of Strategy and Operations

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where, because there's a difference

between like,, we need to climb this

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mountain, help us figure out how to

do it and make sure we do it in an

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efficient way, and that it gets done.

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And marketing ops doesn't really

ask like, should we climb this?

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Is this the right mountain?

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Is it a good idea

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Paul Wilson: right.

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Justin Norris: the right time of year?

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Versus let's figure out which mountain

to climb, or if we, maybe we should, you

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know, go for a swim instead or whatever.

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And and then figure out also how to do it.

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Paul Wilson: I love that analogy actually.

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So mountain climbing is one that,

you know actually just a little

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earlier today, I was in conversation

and, and mountains were the topic.

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Because you know, if you think

about the idea that if you are

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a marketer and you tell me.

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And I'm in operations that,

know, the goal to climb.

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You know, the three sisters in Alberta,

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: that's the goal.

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There's so many dimensions that from

an operations perspective come to bear

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on how, how does that get addressed?

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So you know, it could be that you would

like to, you know, you would like for

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marketing to be able to achieve the,

the task of climbing those mountains.

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And there's three of them.

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And so you've asked

for this and we are in.

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You know, we're in Toronto and

so marketing operations people

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are gonna be like, okay, well,

so we need to get to Alberta.

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We

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Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

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Paul Wilson: out where we

could get the climbing gear.

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We need to be able to, and you're,

you're telling me that I need to do that.

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I've got $18 to spend.

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So from an operations perspective,

the ability to, like, there's so

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many dimensions that come to mind and

you know, so there's that marketing

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operations organization that has

the $18 three people, and they

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need to get marketing to the top of

three different mounds in Alberta.

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Justin Norris: I'm gonna MacGyver it.

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Paul Wilson: the marketing, then there's

the, the marketing operations team that

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is like, well, we can get in the corporate

helicopter and I can drop you there.

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And so they have all of the

capability, they have all the capacity.

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And that's when the marketing team

says, well, no, it's not about getting

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to the top of the mountains, it's

about climbing them and going up.

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Oh yeah.

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But we, we, we just, we will drop

you from the helicopter on the top of

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the mountain, and that's what we do.

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And so the operations discussion.

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Long way to get to your point.

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I believe that campaign engineering

needs to be a function and it's a missed

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function in all marketing planning and

the capacity of having a campaign engineer

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connecting the abilities of data and

systems and processes deliver on the

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promises that marketing is looking for.

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That gap caused a lot of issues and a lot

of challenges in our space, and it's a

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very important and missing process for.

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Most marketing organizations have

that voice at the table to say that

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fancy campaign you plan to to do next

fiscal year leveraging generative ai

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because you heard about it on LinkedIn.

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We don't have the data.

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All of the systems you're

talking about don't integrate.

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Today, I'm supposed to reduce

our technology spend by 15%.

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How exactly do you want me to accomplish?

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The mechanics of you delivering this

magical experience that you think

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you can deliver as a marketer, we

need to be in the room all the time.

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Justin Norris: So campaign

engineering, it's an interesting term.

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Maybe the first time , I've heard

it, and like typically we talk about

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campaign operations, which to me is

more like, we need to run a webinar.

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All right, we're gonna do bing, bang,

boom, and we're gonna do our thing.

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This, this is much more of , you

are there in the room, , advising on

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The feasibility potential implications

as the, the strategy is being defined.

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Is that what you mean?

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Paul Wilson: Yeah.

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So the, the role of a campaign architect

or a campaign engineer is a marketing

343

:

campaign runs on so many different

fronts now, and the digital experience

344

:

of that campaign is so critical.

345

:

I.

346

:

That marketers can imagine what they

want that digital experience to be.

347

:

They wanna be able to curate

that experience, and the reality

348

:

is to deliver that experience.

349

:

There's data, there's systems,

there's process, there's everything

350

:

that needs to happen underneath.

351

:

And that can campaign architect

or engineers, the person

352

:

who's in the room saying.

353

:

We, we, we can do that, but we

don't have a system today like

354

:

qualified that integrates the chat

experience rate into Salesforce.

355

:

So, we'll, we'll need, we'll,

we'll need to get something on the

356

:

roadmap do some investigations.

357

:

Do you have the budget?

358

:

And so we now call all the way back

full circle the idea of mandate.

359

:

So even a campaign has to have a mandate.

360

:

So what is the spend?

361

:

What's the number of resources that can

be applied and the campaign architect or

362

:

engineers, the person in the room at the

experience that is expected and trying to

363

:

align it to what is possible or what needs

to be invested in to get to that possible.

364

:

So operations as a discipline is

working within the current capabilities.

365

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

366

:

Paul Wilson: operating them, running

that, doing the work, delivering the

367

:

assets into the market, supporting

the data flow, everything that

368

:

happens within the known universe.

369

:

And then the campaign architect

or campaign engineer, I.

370

:

Needs to be in the room because

marketers don't know when they're

371

:

at the edge of that universe.

372

:

So they may think, well, yeah, we're,

it's just a, a new set of nurture emails.

373

:

Surely we can do that.

374

:

But what if that new set of nurture,

nurture emails is dependent on a

375

:

piece of product telemetry that

isn't currently getting into the

376

:

mar marketing infrastructure?

377

:

All of a sudden there's an engineering

effort or an architectural effort that

378

:

needs to be deployed because it isn't

just a matter of a few different emails

379

:

that are being sent in a nurture cadence.

380

:

a different picture, so operations or

technology people need to be present

381

:

in almost every new imaginative

conversation that marketing is driving.

382

:

Justin Norris: You know what I'm

envisioning as you're talking I

383

:

always like to use physical building

me metaphors, but it's, it's kinda

384

:

like having an engineer, a structural

engineer, a civil engineer in the room.

385

:

I.

386

:

To advise on , you're building this

massive skyscraper or this fancy bridge

387

:

and like, can this actually stand up?

388

:

Will it obey the laws of physics

389

:

Detached audio: and.

390

:

Paul Wilson: that's a, that's a great

analogy because, you know, it's,

391

:

it's, it's wonderful that a tenant

in the building up on the 78th floor

392

:

and they're looking at the beautiful

vistas that this room has, and they're

393

:

thinking, this is, this is amazing.

394

:

I would like my kitchen to be right here.

395

:

and the engineer is the person that's

in the room going, okay, we're 78

396

:

floors up and there is no plumbing

on this side of the building.

397

:

How, how are we gonna, how?

398

:

Yeah, it'd be a great spot

for your kitchen, but the

399

:

infrastructure's not there.

400

:

We can get it there.

401

:

Do you have four and.

402

:

a half million dollars to put

your kitchen in this space?

403

:

Yes or no?

404

:

Justin Norris: Yeah, anything

is possible with time and money,

405

:

but is it, is it worth it?

406

:

I think in some ways, a lot of what

you're describing there is the enterprise

407

:

perspective kind of infused into it.

408

:

And I, I wanna address this a

little more explicitly because me

409

:

and Mike, my daily reality at a 400

person company is, is, is different.

410

:

And so I, and I know you've

experienced both sides.

411

:

So Let's say I was going to, to,

to leave my my job tomorrow and go

412

:

work at a 10,000 person company.

413

:

What should I expect to be different?

414

:

Not, I'm not doing that.

415

:

I'm just the hypothetical.

416

:

For some, the hypothetical listener

who is contemplating that change, what

417

:

kind of shock to the system should they

expect moving into that environment?

418

:

Paul Wilson: Did you just

resign on your podcast?

419

:

I mean,

420

:

Justin Norris: we can edit this out later.

421

:

Can't no.

422

:

Paul Wilson: I, that it's really,

it's, that's a difficult question

423

:

to answer because I have seen a, a

range of Agility in the enterprise

424

:

space there are many dimensions.

425

:

Is it centralized or decentralized?

426

:

Do they have operational maturity

or they do not, are they a

427

:

process and systems heavy.

428

:

Operational organization.

429

:

So know, the experience of

working in a 37 year old software

430

:

company demonstrated that that

431

:

Justin Norris: Hmm.

432

:

Paul Wilson: has processed, they

have ways that things happen.

433

:

They, they don't move quickly.

434

:

So if you're moving from a 400 person

to a 10,000 person company, you need

435

:

to understand some of the cultural

operational factors to know, okay.

436

:

You may wanna show up and, and be scrappy

and do things your own way and, and

437

:

break the mold and do things different,

438

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

439

:

Paul Wilson: and immediately find out that

there is no mandate for you to do that.

440

:

So in the shift, it's a

matter of establishing the

441

:

relationships with navigators.

442

:

Inside that organization who can teach

you about the operational culture of

443

:

the organization, they can provide

you with the guidance so that you

444

:

become literate in accomplishing the

things that you want to accomplish.

445

:

And in other enterprise

organizations, they have operational

446

:

structure, can be very Empowering.

447

:

But the challenge then becomes you

find out that there are Not only are

448

:

you, you know, you're the new Chief

Cook in the kitchen, but you also find

449

:

out that there are 37 other kitchens.

450

:

So there's a bunch of other people doing

things in a bunch of different ways, and

451

:

the brand experience is very fragmented.

452

:

The ability of you to influence and

change things across the board is

453

:

very limited, you might be able to.

454

:

Be in a 10,000 person organization

and do things however you want, but in

455

:

essence, you're, you're on an island.

456

:

Justin Norris: So, although I

have not had the experience

457

:

of working for a company that

size, I have consulted for them.

458

:

I've been embedded inside them.

459

:

And my observation there is and this

would be one of the more, you know,

460

:

process oriented ones that you described,

let's say, and my observation was the,

461

:

the work becomes so much more meta.

462

:

Like, you're not saying, all right,

we wanna do this thing, let's do it.

463

:

It's let's have a meeting to create the

deck, to pitch the boss's boss on building

464

:

a plan for then creating a mandate to do

this thing maybe in Q three of next year.

465

:

And and that can be hard.

466

:

Like, like there's this a completely

different skillset, like you said,

467

:

to navigating that process and

understanding these are the buttons

468

:

you push to get things done here.

469

:

does it great, I suppose ever, does

it ever feel hard to, to do that?

470

:

Or is it just like, Nope, this is

actually, this is how this game

471

:

is played and I enjoy moving

through these systems and achieving

472

:

things within this framework.

473

:

Paul Wilson: I think you probably know me

well enough to know that I don't run on

474

:

PowerPoint so I do find that challenging.

475

:

and I have , in , the experience

of my career, can do that.

476

:

It's not the way I, I like to work.

477

:

But it just becomes What you are

looking for in your experience?

478

:

So the ability work at enterprise

scale is a different skillset.

479

:

The skillset that I feel I learned

apart from PowerPoint skills was the

480

:

ability to communicate of effort, that

is something that isn't necessarily as

481

:

significant in smaller organizations.

482

:

But it me look a little differently at

the work and effort of what marketing

483

:

operations and marketing technology

can achieve because the contribution

484

:

of putting emails in market faster, the

contribution of cleaner data, all of these

485

:

elements are very difficult to enunciate.

486

:

Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

487

:

Paul Wilson: Until you've had to

really push and and think about what

488

:

the upstream message needs to be.

489

:

That says at the C level, the messaging

is the brand will be stronger.

490

:

At the SS v P level, the

messaging is we will be different.

491

:

That difference makes the brand stronger.

492

:

The messaging at the director level is

operational discipline that we need in

493

:

order to be able to deliver a better

experience that makes the brand stronger

494

:

at the senior manager level, it's.

495

:

That stuff that has been a pain for

us to manage and deal with for years

496

:

now be funded it'll make the brand

experience more, experience more.

497

:

You like it.

498

:

It's the cascade all the way down the

chain of what the impact bubbles up to and

499

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

500

:

Paul Wilson: at that enterprise scale

is informative And it's helpful to

501

:

really understand how to deliver

the message that matters to the

502

:

people at the level that they're at.

503

:

Justin Norris: And that's an amazing

skill, what you just described in what

504

:

you just kind of modeled in real time.

505

:

To me that is, A, a significant

differentiator between maybe a very

506

:

talented technician or technologist,

you know, systems integrator.

507

:

Even someone who's very good with

process, but they don't necessarily

508

:

know how to maneuver within a complex

organization and address the concerns

509

:

of all those different stakeholders.

510

:

did you just develop that

organically through hard knocks?

511

:

I mean, always , been a very good

communicator even since the days that

512

:

we've worked together, but , was that just

experience teaching you how to do that?

513

:

Paul Wilson: It.

514

:

It is and and it's through

a series of mistakes really.

515

:

And I think that the.

516

:

The harsh reality of what

marketing operations and technology

517

:

professionals live in is the, the

lack of an interconnectedness of

518

:

what matters, being messaged all

the way up and down the chain.

519

:

So if you're in an organization

and the C M O is a, I don't wanna

520

:

worry about technology type leader.

521

:

And you're a technician

and your messaging that?

522

:

you're trying to communicate

up is all about technology and

523

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

524

:

Paul Wilson: By the time it gets to

the person who has budget to spend

525

:

and who can help solve problems, if

all that they're hearing about is

526

:

technology and data problems and they

don't wanna understand that, or they

527

:

don't want to embrace solving that the.

528

:

The ceiling you're bumping into

is the, well, that's what we're

529

:

paying you to do, type ceiling

530

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

531

:

Paul Wilson: communicating the value

and, and connecting with the outcome

532

:

that someone is looking to or someone

is able to or wants to process.

533

:

Is the skillset that I think

is, is very, very important.

534

:

And that would be if you're in an

environment where the C F O doesn't

535

:

wanna think about or doesn't wanna

understand that, that that's not

536

:

their, that's not where their head's at

their head is at innovating the brand.

537

:

you connect the message to say,

ability to innovate the brand is

538

:

negatively impacted if we can't send

personalized communications at scale.

539

:

Right.

540

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

541

:

Paul Wilson: And the C M O will say,

well, yeah, I mean, I can't do a b M

542

:

if I can't do good personalization.

543

:

Okay, we can solve that problem.

544

:

It's gonna take some dollars.

545

:

Can you gimme the dollars

to solve that problem?

546

:

Is the conversation you

have with that C M O?

547

:

Not we need to go into the market, put

out an R F P, figure out which vendors are

548

:

going to be able to do an analysis that

establishes the data quality score of the

549

:

dataset that we got from this acquired

You might know all of that minutiae, but

550

:

what you communicate and what you get

actions, decisions on is not the minutiae.

551

:

The minutiae is your job, but

552

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

553

:

,

Paul Wilson: that necessarily.

554

:

Justin Norris: because nobody cares.

555

:

That's the, that's the tough truth.

556

:

That's.

557

:

Paul Wilson: they want it solved.

558

:

And have seen dollars unlocked or

they've not been unlocked in the past.

559

:

Because the way it's communicated

is just a little different.

560

:

If you're trying to say, we need to

solve a Marketo problem, the C M O

561

:

is gonna experience the instinct of,

I'm already paying enough for mar,

562

:

I don't wanna pay any more for it.

563

:

So the problem isn't a Marketo problem.

564

:

problem is a brand experience, or the

problem is an ability to scale, or the

565

:

problem is something If you're trying to

sell at that level, if you're trying to

566

:

sell solving the problem at that level,

the message needs to be appropriate.

567

:

Justin Norris: You know, I had an,

an experience that captured this

568

:

not too long ago, Had a business

development b d r leader looking

569

:

at a, a new dialer for his team.

570

:

And you know, budgets being tight.

571

:

It's like, no, there's no way.

572

:

Can't bring another tool.

573

:

What's the, you know, we have

dial like, why did a trial

574

:

just, just did it and put it with

a, with a team, relatively small

575

:

team, with the benefit of, of small

organizations that you can't do that.

576

:

And Massive increase in number of

of connected calls and produced

577

:

a really quotable statistic

like in X amount of time.

578

:

We did as many calls as we

did in this whole much bigger

579

:

period, like a month or whatever.

580

:

And like you said, that all of it, nobody

says, oh, we need a new dialer because

581

:

it's gonna give us capability, X, y, Z.

582

:

You have a statistic like that.

583

:

Like, well, yeah, this is a no brainer.

584

:

We have to do this.

585

:

And it's, it's learning.

586

:

It's learning to take this and

then to talk about it like that.

587

:

I, I think particularly in the enterprise,

probably more complicated in the

588

:

enterprise, but really in organizations

of any size, you have to learn to do

589

:

that, to not be perceived as a button

pusher, for lack of a better word

590

:

someone that understands business impact

and can talk about business impact.

591

:

Paul Wilson: it also works in those

environments where may be an executive

592

:

or a leader who thinks that a, a

massive change needs to happen.

593

:

You know the, we need to move to

HubSpot because I've heard it's

594

:

a lot better than Marketo and.

595

:

Being able to work in those kinds of

environments and work through those sorts

596

:

of challenges is a communication problem.

597

:

It, it,

598

:

Justin Norris: Yep.

599

:

Paul Wilson: really is the ability to

navigate and, and understand what are

600

:

the messages that are most important

to, have communicated through that.

601

:

And you aren't always going to win.

602

:

And that's why this is

a fun space to be in.

603

:

Justin Norris: There needs to be a

kit know, where the fire extinguisher,

604

:

you hit the glass with the hammer and

it's like if your VP went to college

605

:

with someone who sells Pardot and

now they're trying to shift you onto

606

:

Pardot, , break the, break the glass and

it gives you the thing that you can say

607

:

Paul Wilson: and I mean, I've, I've, I've

been guilty of, of similar sort of rip

608

:

and replace things in the past and it's,

it's scar tissue that you work through

609

:

Justin Norris: I feel the same.

610

:

And I think the challenge is because

when you, part of what brings you into

611

:

this space is that you love the tools.

612

:

you articulated it perfectly, like

endorphin rush of seeing the light

613

:

go green and it's a live feeling

of like, it's working, it's ama,

614

:

look at this thing that I did.

615

:

It's amazing.

616

:

And.

617

:

And you can become focused

on that as an end in itself.

618

:

And then bring that perspective

to an executive and you'll get

619

:

brought up short so quickly because

620

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

621

:

Justin Norris: they, they do not empathize

with the thrill of of that achievement.

622

:

really care about the business

value that's being generated.

623

:

And

624

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah,

625

:

Justin Norris: yeah,

it's a lesson to learn.

626

:

Paul Wilson: absolutely.

627

:

Justin Norris: I have a working

theory that as businesses get bigger,

628

:

they inexorably approach becoming

a real life Dilbert comic strip.

629

:

Like the level of dysfunction

that emerges , part of my working

630

:

theory is just that like, Systems

eventually become so complicated and

631

:

so self-referential that it can become

impossible for that to not happen.

632

:

Obviously there's all sorts of

companies and there's obviously very

633

:

high performing big companies, but I

read an article some time ago, some

634

:

anonymous with someone who worked at

Google and just talking about like how

635

:

that culture changed and how so much of

what they do is now just focused on like

636

:

Google stuff

637

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

638

:

Justin Norris: versus like the

delivering of business value.

639

:

Agree, disagree with this theory.

640

:

Am I wrong?

641

:

Is it, is it possible to be a non

dysfunctional, huge company, or is some

642

:

level of dysfunction just inevitable in a

system, a corporate system, that complex.

643

:

Paul Wilson: Well, first I'm gonna

pick up on the Dilbert reference

644

:

because in so many ways is analog.

645

:

There, there's a perfect Dilbert comic

strip separating it from the author, but

646

:

from like the, the comic strip of the, the

character saying that they're engineering,

647

:

they're not very happy and they, you know,

want to maybe go and do something else.

648

:

And I forgot the middle panel

in the strip, but last panel is

649

:

the person saying, well, maybe,

maybe I'll go into marketing.

650

:

And, and the, the other character says,

oh, that's just liquor and guessing.

651

:

I mean that the reason we don't have

nice things, the reason we don't

652

:

have budgets is because marketing

is just liquor and guessing.

653

:

But The degree of operational

dysfunction is correlational

654

:

to the organization's side.

655

:

And I don't see that ever changing.

656

:

And, you know, in the span of my

business to business sales and

657

:

marketing career A good 20 ish years.

658

:

I have seen a number of different

evolutions of, Hey, there's a

659

:

whole new way that we can manage

this large organization and it's

660

:

gonna be entirely different.

661

:

I've seen a number of iterations of

that and to a T when a large enterprise

662

:

organization looks to adapt itself

and change the way it functions.

663

:

is a period.

664

:

That, that chaos actually creates

some alignment and momentum and

665

:

Justin Norris: Hmm.

666

:

Paul Wilson: then the operational

stability overrides and you get

667

:

into the layer upon layer of middle

management of those meetings to

668

:

discuss the meeting, about the meeting.

669

:

Like that, that kind of dysfunction,

I believe is Always going to persist.

670

:

I mean, we saw the impacts of the

pandemic, the idea that, uh, the

671

:

decentralization, the digital head,

head headquarters in Slack where

672

:

everybody can just work in Slack.

673

:

We don't need to be all together

in the meeting or in the building.

674

:

now gut reverse on that, where

some leaders are saying, oh no, we

675

:

know we, do have to be back living.

676

:

There are some things I completely

agree, are much more productive

677

:

in person than they are virtual.

678

:

But inevitably, the larger the

organization, the higher the

679

:

degree of operational mess and,

and static, and that's just,

680

:

that's the way it's going to be.

681

:

Justin Norris: So it

comes with the territory.

682

:

Be prepared and you know, obviously

some are better than others.

683

:

Paul Wilson: Yep.

684

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

685

:

But yeah, I mean the, the simplest

system is a business of one.

686

:

You're almost always in alignment,

easy to make decisions, easy to pivot,

687

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

688

:

Justin Norris: of course,

689

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

690

:

Justin Norris: so

691

:

Paul Wilson: Impossible

692

:

Justin Norris: the the,

possibly get fired.

693

:

The flip side, less, seem that

I'm kind of on, big companies.

694

:

But you get to do big, cool,

ambitious things at big companies

695

:

that Just don't get done.

696

:

And so as, as someone who does enjoy

the endorphin rush of scaling those

697

:

mountains sometimes smaller companies

wouldn't have a need to do that.

698

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah, so I've,

I've kind of experienced it.

699

:

If we divide the world into three, the

small, the medium, and the large, I

700

:

have had those experiences at all three

ends of the spectrum where you know,

701

:

looking at the operational complexity

of moving into an 80 some odd thousand

702

:

person company at Salesforce and seeing

initiatives succeed at bringing in, a

703

:

very powerful facilitating into that.

704

:

larger organization.

705

:

When Slack came into Salesforce,

know, seeing some of that, you

706

:

don't get to experience that unless

707

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

708

:

Paul Wilson: the worlds of those sorts

of alignments and seeing that kind

709

:

of change at that scale is amazing.

710

:

And then had the mid

market type experience of.

711

:

Very messy, problematic, Marketo issues

Marketo and dynamics are not sinking.

712

:

You've bricked the Marketo instance,

it's been bricked for weeks.

713

:

There's big roadblock, big jams that

need alignment from into Marketo, into

714

:

deep into the customer organization

and getting those things fixed.

715

:

You know, having those successes.

716

:

Are so amazing.

717

:

And then had just, you know, the, the

one person Airtable talking properly

718

:

to Workato doing something in Postman,

getting something to show up over there.

719

:

Like it's, I.

720

:

I think that it, it depends

on your character and what

721

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

722

:

Paul Wilson: that feeling of success.

723

:

Absolutely.

724

:

At the enterprise scale, you get to

be in a different ecosystem while

725

:

you're experiencing your success.

726

:

But I think if you're looking for that

connection working with people and

727

:

feeling success by solving challenges,

Not that the size doesn't matter, but

728

:

the scale doesn't really necessarily

make a big difference if you are

729

:

really just tied to that feeling of

730

:

Justin Norris: Hmm.

731

:

Paul Wilson: something

732

:

Justin Norris: Winning is winning

the, you may be playing on a different

733

:

board or in a different, Environment.

734

:

But if you understand the rules of the

game and you can, I understand that

735

:

that what you're talking about there.

736

:

You, you twice now, I think at least

twice, maybe more companies that

737

:

you've worked for have been acquired

by big fortune, five hundreds.

738

:

Do you consider yourself like a lucky

charm of sorts or do , is there, is

739

:

there some cosmic effect happening

there or you think that's just a fluke?

740

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah, no, I, I, I

absolutely believe that Benioff

741

:

made his decisions based on where,

742

:

Justin Norris: So

743

:

Paul Wilson: I was.

744

:

Justin Norris: that Paul Guy looks pretty,

pretty smart if it's, if he's there, I,

745

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah.

746

:

Justin Norris: yeah.

747

:

Paul Wilson: No, it's it's

really just being in the

748

:

right place at the right time.

749

:

I think with the right attitude and the,

the the right skillset, I'm very lucky.

750

:

Extremely lucky.

751

:

Justin Norris: I have maybe two more

questions, but the first I want to,

752

:

I want to touch on ai 'cause I know

that this is something, I think you're

753

:

doing a talk on it at Mossa Palooza.

754

:

Coming up clearly this is an area

you've, you've thought a lot about and,

755

:

investing your thought capital into.

756

:

lay out my perspective and then

I, I want to hear yours, but,

757

:

I think I've been dabbling.

758

:

I, I would say I've kind of approached

it from a skeptical place and I've

759

:

seen some interesting things from an

efficiency point of view, summarizing

760

:

notes, creating, highlights, reviewing

calls and giving transcripts.

761

:

And There's certainly

convenience, efficiency, things.

762

:

I've been underwhelmed with the,

the generative, the creative aspect

763

:

of it in the sense that a lot of

what I've seen has been very . not

764

:

just not good or, or generic.

765

:

Like you're always gonna get

something that's generic and, and

766

:

that's what I've struggled with.

767

:

How can something that's sort of

definitionally based on the average of

768

:

a trillion different data points that

it's reviewed, how do, how do you get

769

:

something that, you've talked a lot about

brand experience that produces that good

770

:

brand experience and your perspective

on this may be still evolving, but

771

:

I'm just curious for your take on it.

772

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah, I, I really

believe that we're on the, the verge

773

:

of a massive transformational change

in the space of marketing, sales,

774

:

and customer success operations.

775

:

And it's going to be driven

you know, the three I.

776

:

Core pillars of what machine learning

can do in our space, and that first that

777

:

you're touching on is the content factor.

778

:

So the, the visual and the textual

content and what content can be created.

779

:

The second element of transformation is

going to be in that automation like the,

780

:

the experience at scale through machine

learning can do to ensure that that.

781

:

Machine generated content and imagery

and whatnot is delivered to the

782

:

right audience at the right time,

at the right point in the cycle, on

783

:

the right surface, in the right way.

784

:

And the third element of what

machine learning will do is.

785

:

The analytics and reporting and feedback

and all of the, the deeper knowledge of

786

:

big data and where big data will show.

787

:

And I think that from a maturation

perspective, your criticism is valid

788

:

because I believe we're at the dot makes

matrix era of putting, you know, printing

789

:

pictures off the internet using your dot

matrix printer in terms of what generative

790

:

is gonna be able to do in the space.

791

:

We're really at the tip of the iceberg.

792

:

We aren't pushing.

793

:

Large data sets of corporate and

history and data the mix of what the

794

:

machine learning models are processing

when they're generating their content.

795

:

We haven't yet been able to really

these models over a period of three

796

:

and four years develop the voice.

797

:

Like I think that we're really so

early that it's difficult to assess

798

:

the technology will do for us.

799

:

But I am hundred percent confident

that when we have this podcast three

800

:

years from now and revisit this

conversation first, it'll be our

801

:

digital assistants that are having this

podcast, not us, but we'll be looking

802

:

at a very different paradigm of what.

803

:

Technology like the idea of you know,

the marketing organization being more

804

:

prompt base where you'll be able to

say, Suggest a four step nurture program

805

:

for this persona in this geography.

806

:

And you're looking and assessing a few

possible formats and content mixes and all

807

:

of the smart list building construction,

808

:

Justin Norris: mm-hmm.

809

:

Paul Wilson: just happens in the

background because learning has been able

810

:

to look at and assess and come up with

the mixes without us needing to Do so.

811

:

So I think our space.

812

:

Needs to be extremely diligent

and stay ahead of what machine

813

:

learning can and can't do.

814

:

curate what that change looks

like in order to be present in the

815

:

room once the change has happened.

816

:

Justin Norris: Do you have concerns

at all or do you feel it is a

817

:

just a unvarnished good and, and

benefit that will come from it?

818

:

Or do you think that there is risk for.

819

:

and there's obviously a number of

different vectors where things could

820

:

be negatively impacted from jobs

to maybe the quality of the output.

821

:

Do we diminish the ability of marketers

to think about these things if they become

822

:

too, you know, the kind of wally effect

where we become too reliant on the tools?

823

:

do you feel that is overblown concern?

824

:

Paul Wilson: That's another podcast.

825

:

I mean, I have a lot of concerns

and you know, when we start, I'm

826

:

looking at it from the mechanical

lens of those three pillars

827

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

828

:

Yeah.

829

:

Paul Wilson: learning can do.

830

:

Justin Norris: Which makes perfect sense.

831

:

Paul Wilson: ethics, when

we start thinking beyond,

832

:

Justin Norris: Yeah.

833

:

Paul Wilson: a different

and and scary conversation.

834

:

But I think we've seen very consistently

that Enterprises and businesses

835

:

will make dollar decisions first,

836

:

Justin Norris: Mm-hmm.

837

:

Paul Wilson: decisions going

to be on the mechanics.

838

:

Justin Norris: Just to wrap it up,

Paul, you are some months in now

839

:

into your new venture, G T M Systems.

840

:

Just for those that might be curious,

tell us a bit about it and what you're

841

:

doing , and what are the sorts of things

you wanna do and who do you wanna help?

842

:

Paul Wilson: Yeah, so I'm

still kind of putting together

843

:

what that path looks like.

844

:

I, I describe it as stealth mode.

845

:

, Because there are a number of different

paths to take, but where I'm focusing

846

:

is on helping organizations assess

their readiness for the change

847

:

that I was just sort of describing.

848

:

Justin Norris: Hmm.

849

:

Paul Wilson: how do enterprises

assess or not their data set is mature

850

:

enough to use in a machine learning?

851

:

Algorithm, how can they assess which

vendors are the right vendors at the table

852

:

to think about moving towards over the

course of the next two to three years?

853

:

What is the operational structure that

they may wanna look at that says, I.

854

:

My marketing ops and sales ops

organizations need to really become

855

:

one, because SS d r and B D R function

as a whole is gonna be much more

856

:

machine learning, content driven.

857

:

So I'm gonna have three or four rockstar

people, I no longer need 15 humans.

858

:

So how do we do, how do we

enable that transformation?

859

:

So it's those kinds of Pathways that

I'm investigating and working with

860

:

some, some great first customers on.

861

:

But in terms of establishing scale and

how I grow this I'm being diligent.

862

:

I do not want to under deliver and

it's a vast area of potential work.

863

:

So I do want to kind of establish

a, a skillset around it.

864

:

Justin Norris: I'm excited for you.

865

:

I know whoever you work with

will not be disappointed.

866

:

And where can companies find

you on the web if they wanna

867

:

see more about what you do?

868

:

Paul Wilson: The best

place to start is LinkedIn.

869

:

The, the G T M Systems website

is still fledgling and, and I'm

870

:

working through establishing that.

871

:

So is always the best

872

:

Justin Norris: We will, we will

have your LinkedIn in the show

873

:

notes and Hey, Paul, it's always a

pleasure to chat with you and this

874

:

like kind of what our conversations

have been like over the years.

875

:

So I'm glad to just have it in a recorded

format that other people can listen into.

876

:

That's it for today.

877

:

I want to thank everyone for listening.

878

:

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