Episode Highlights:
Key Concepts Explored:
Notable Quotes:
"If there's a place that you wish existed... why not be the person that starts that?"
— Carrie Melissa Jones [00:13:00]
"You cannot do it alone. It's not a solo activity. To really create a community, you've got to see, recognize, and invite in the gifts of others and others' contributions."
— Carrie Melissa Jones[00:42:32] - [00:42:54]
I start everything I do scared and then once you get rolling it gets fun. Nothing starts fun. Everything starts with anxiety.
— Sara Lobkovich [00:46:45]
Chapters:
[00:00:00] Introduction and Meet Carrie Melissa Jones
[00:05:51] Social Anxiety and Career: Turning Challenges into Expertise
[00:11:22] Redefining Community: "Quiet Communities" and Meaningful Engagement
[00:15:38] Challenging the "Not a Joiner" Identity and Finding Your Fit
[00:19:53] Body Awareness: Using Physical Responses as Your Community Guide
[00:25:32] Advice for Shy Community Creators: Boundaries and Sustainability
[00:29:42] Research Insights: Belonging Without Active Participation
[00:39:03] Self-Leadership and Distributed Responsibility in Community Building
[00:44:30] Practical Pre-Launch Strategies and "Doing It Scared"
[00:48:10] The Long Game: Advice for Participants, Hosts, and Closing Thoughts
Upcoming Events:
Book Launch:
Carrie’s Links and Resources:
Sara’s Links and Resources:
Find full show notes and the episode transcript via https://findrc.co/thinkydoers !
Mentioned in this episode:
Don't forget your free No-BS OKRs Workbook
Before I let you go, I just wanna remind you, you can pick up your copy of "You Are a Strategist: Use No-BS OKRs to Get Big Things Done" at https://youareastrategist.com, and you'll get that free PDF of the "No-BS OKRs Workbook" when you purchase direct. Don't wanna DIY it? Book a VIP executive strategy day with me. They can be used one-on-one. It can be used to facilitate an in-person or remote event with your org. It can also be used for a keynote that inspires actual results for your upcoming event. Visit https://findrc.co/vipday for all the details. And from there you can book a free executive strategy intake call, or request a no meeting virtual consult. A VIP executive strategy day helps you unlock clarity, align quickly, and drive results in just one powerful day.
Don't forget: Get your free No-BS OKRs Workbook or schedule a VIP Strategy Day!
Before I let you go, I just wanna remind you, you can pick up your copy of "You Are a Strategist: Use No-BS OKRs to Get Big Things Done" at https://youareastrategist.com, and you'll get that free PDF of the "No-BS OKRs Workbook" when you purchase direct. Don't wanna DIY it? Book a VIP executive strategy day with me. They can be used one-on-one. It can be used to facilitate an in-person or remote event with your org. It can also be used for a keynote that inspires actual results for your upcoming event. Visit https://findrc.co/vipday for all the details. And from there you can book a free executive strategy intake call, or request a no meeting virtual consult. A VIP executive strategy day helps you unlock clarity, align quickly, and drive results in just one powerful day.
Welcome to the Thinkydoers podcast.
Sara:Thinkydoers are those of us drawn to deep work where thinking is
Sara:working — but we don't stop there.
Sara:We're compelled to move the work from insight to idea, through the messy
Sara:middle, to find courage and confidence to put our thoughts into action.
Sara:I'm your host, Sara Lobkovich.
Sara:I'm a strategy coach, a huge goal-setting and attainment nerd, and board-certified
Sara:health and wellness coach, working at the overlap of work, life well-being.
Sara:I'm also a Thinkydoer.
Sara:I'm here to help others find more satisfaction, less frustration, less
Sara:friction, and more flow in our work.
Sara:My mission is to help changemakers like you transform our workplaces and world.
Sara:So let's get started
Sara:Hello, friends.
Sara:Today I am very excited to bring you a conversation with Carrie Melissa
Sara:Jones, community strategist, author and founder of the CMJ Community.
Sara:What makes this episode especially intriguing is that Carrie has built
Sara:her career around creating spaces for connection and community, while also
Sara:navigating her own social anxiety.
Sara:If you've ever felt that community spaces aren't for you because you're
Sara:introverted, shy, neurodivergent, or just sensitive, this episode
Sara:might change your perspective.
Sara:We will explore what makes communities safe and accessible for different thinking
Sara:and sensory styles, the power of quiet communities, and how belonging can
Sara:happen even without active participation.
Sara:Carrie will also share practical advice for both community
Sara:participants and those considering building their own communities.
Sara:So whether you are a self-proclaimed lone wolf like me or someone wrestling
Sara:with how to create connection on your own terms, this conversation offers
Sara:insights that just might surprise you.
Sara:All right.
Sara:I am super excited to have Carrie Melissa Jones here with me today.
Sara:Carrie and I met through Jamar Diggs' Low Lift Club.
Sara:What we're gonna be talking about today is community and community building,
Sara:in the context of being a Thinkydoer, maybe someone who isn't necessarily
Sara:wired for networking and connection.
Sara:I participated in her community and was so impressed with your rigor.
Sara:I know how busy you are, and I'm super excited to have you here today.
Sara:So go ahead and tell people who you are and what you do.
Carrie:I'm so excited to be having this conversation.
Carrie:When you explained who a Thinkydoer is, I was like, yes, that's me.
Carrie:I am Carrie Melissa Jones.
Carrie:I am the co-author of the book, right over my shoulder, Building
Carrie:Brand Communities with Charles Vogl.
Carrie:And I'm a community strategist, community builder, and researcher of
Carrie:belonging and connection, and what that means, especially what it means on the
Carrie:internet, as confusing as that maybe.
Carrie:I help people all day long connect both online and offline.
Sara:That right there is a perfect opening, because so many of us who
Sara:are introverted or neurodivergent or sensitive or autistic, have
Sara:different sensory needs, wind up doing so much of our connecting online.
Sara:I just did naturally, and then now knowing what I do about my wiring,
Sara:it makes perfect sense, because I can regulate myself with people
Sara:online, compared to all those motor neurons firing when we're in person
Sara:and everything that comes into play.
Sara:But I'd love to hear, how did you start doing this work?
Carrie:Yeah.
Carrie:What you just shared is pretty much much me to a T, especially as teenager.
Carrie:I did not have the language then for why my social anxiety was as high as it was.
Carrie:I just knew that I felt like I literally could not use my voice sometimes.
Carrie:Like, I was too afraid to speak, because everything was just happening around me.
Carrie:And so, yes, exactly like you mentioned, I discovered online forums, this is
Carrie:pre-Facebook, pre-MySpace, all that.
Carrie:And I discovered that there were places where people were connecting around
Carrie:all kinds of topics, from motorcycles to music, that was my big thing.
Carrie:And you could meet people from all over the world and I did not know this at
Carrie:the time, but it was absolutely for me about self-regulation and being able
Carrie:to take in what people were saying and process it, and then think, okay, what
Carrie:is my thoughtful contribution to this?
Carrie:And/or what do I feel safe sharing in this space that I can't share anywhere else?
Carrie:I didn't realize that doing that as a teenager was gonna
Carrie:open up my career, but it did.
Carrie:And then I got into doing this professionally.
Carrie:I used to work mostly in tech, also in publishing.
Carrie:And there were all kinds of folks who, for the first time, we're trying to
Carrie:do work on the internet at the same time and needed a steward, needed
Carrie:someone to help them to connect and do their work more effectively.
Carrie:And so I discovered that this job title of "community manager" existed.
Carrie:And then when I discovered that, I was like, this is my life's work.
Carrie:I just decided one day, this is what I want to do.
Carrie:And I've been doing it ever since.
Carrie:Went to grad school to study it, all that stuff.
Carrie:So yeah, I'm just a huge nerd about this topic.
Sara:That's so awesome.
Sara:It's wild to meet other folks who've been at it that long.
Sara:know there are a lot of us, but you just look so young to be as old as I am.
Sara:So tell me a little bit more, you mentioned social anxiety, if you're
Sara:comfortable talking about that, I'd love for you to share a bit.
Sara:I think there's so much overlap between different neurodivergences
Sara:and anxiety and other mental health issues, and social anxiety.
Sara:So me a little bit more about how social anxiety has affected you and your career
Sara:and the choice to do this for work.
Carrie:I feel like until I was probably in my mid-twenties, I contorted my
Carrie:entire career around my social anxiety.
Carrie:What were the ways in which I could avoid social interaction?
Carrie:Even though I'm very socially anxious, I'm also very driven.
Carrie:It's like, how can I still advance in my career, was the question I was
Carrie:holding — but without having to do the scary things like get up on stage and
Carrie:talk and host meetup events where I bring together strangers and things like that.
Carrie:Actually, one of the seminal moments of my life was I went and I lived in New
Carrie:Zealand for a year, and I lived on farms.
Carrie:And I worked on farms and met people from all over the world.
Carrie:And I was forced, through exposure, essentially exposure
Carrie:therapy, just over and over again.
Carrie:Carrie, you're gonna have to have conversations with people who maybe,
Carrie:like, for whom English is not their first language, and you're gonna have
Carrie:to really zone in on how to connect with folks from all over the world.
Carrie:And so that opened that up for me, and I realized that it was a skill
Carrie:that I developed, opening up to people and getting them to open up to me.
Carrie:And so, I started to open up this possibility that my career did not have
Carrie:to mean me hiding for my entire career.
Carrie:But a lot of my early career was behind the scenes, behind the
Carrie:curtain, not sharing a lot of myself.
Carrie:I've just, over many years, step by step, have opened up more and more.
Carrie:I try now not to let my career be designed by avoidance of social interaction.
Carrie:I'm more just aware of it.
Carrie:And then when I choose to, then I can challenge myself with an opportunity
Carrie:to get out of my comfort zone.
Sara:This is gonna be one of those episodes where we're just, like,
Sara:totally twinning the whole time.
Carrie:Yes, please.
Sara:So, some people might be surprised to hear someone who wrestles with social
Sara:anxiety chose community as a career.
Sara:Tell me a bit about what community means to you, and a little bit more
Sara:about how this wound up what you do, despite your social anxiety.
Carrie:So what community means to me is a group of people who care
Carrie:about one another's, welfare, who actually care about one another
Carrie:beyond just making a sale or finishing a transaction of some sort.
Carrie:And they say that we create the things that we most need to heal
Carrie:within ourselves, and I think that's 100% what I have done.
Carrie:I have been very afraid of connection, and so that's something
Carrie:that's needed to heal within me.
Carrie:And so now, I consider a lot of my life's work is: how do we create
Carrie:spaces in which it is safer to have the courage to connect with other people?
Carrie:For me, it's about navigating and working with the challenges that I've always
Carrie:had, and then I now have a deep level of empathy for anyone who's feeling that,
Carrie:and now I can design for those folks and to make sure that they feel included and
Carrie:make sure that if they would like to, there's an invitation to them to deepen,
Carrie:or they can stay in the background and just watch, because that's okay too.
Carrie:Those are all things that are very important to me.
Carrie:And growing up, I always saw community as being like, it's
Carrie:the loudest people in the room.
Carrie:It's people who have no fear of speaking up around a big conference table.
Carrie:Now, that's not what it means to me at all.
Carrie:It's what happens in the quiet moments, in the small interactions,
Carrie:in the constant showing up.
Sara:One of the things I loved about your community versus other online
Sara:communities I've been in is just how calm.
Sara:It's not pressure to do anything or to engage in any certain way.
Sara:So you have really cultivated that skillset for creating places that
Sara:do feel safer or like people can engage in the way that fits them.
Sara:How did you develop those practices?
Carrie:Yeah, it's a combination of what I've developed over many years through my
Carrie:empathy, but also through research that I've done and research that I've read
Carrie:about social anxiety and communication apprehension and things like that.
Carrie:What you're referring to is like what we call a quiet community,
Carrie:and that's not for everybody.
Carrie:Some people wanna be surrounded by noise and liveliness all the time.
Carrie:But it's been a really conscious decision for us to say: actually,
Carrie:we want you to come here when.
Carrie:You feel like you are ready to receive support, and we don't want you coming
Carrie:here just because we have pinged you or sent you an email or reminded you for the
Carrie:15th time, There's a certain amount of that we must do in order to ensure that
Carrie:people are aware of all the benefits of being a member, but we're never creating
Carrie:engagement for engagement's sake.
Carrie:I always steer folks clear of that.
Carrie:Any kind of engagement you're trying to create in your community, it
Carrie:needs to be meaningful engagement, which means it needs to connect
Carrie:people to one of two things, other people who are going to help them on
Carrie:their journey, or to their purpose.
Carrie:Why did I join this in the first place, and how is this engagement
Carrie:I'm now being invited into helping me make progress toward that purpose?
Sara:So if you think about two different constituencies, the people who think
Sara:that community is not for them because they're shy or introverted or socially
Sara:anxious, what would you say to folks like that, either to challenge that belief
Sara:or to help them see things differently about community and connection?
Carrie:A lot of people just say, "I'm not a joiner. I don't join things." And
Carrie:they, I think they tend to over-identify with that as part of their identity.
Carrie:Like, "I'm just not a person that joins things." I would challenge anyone who
Carrie:thinks "I can't join an organization or join a community that I want to be part
Carrie:of because X, Y, and Z reasons" — I would challenge anyone who's kind of having
Carrie:that knee-jerk reaction to ask themselves: maybe I'm not someone who joins a lot
Carrie:of things, but is this something that's gonna help me grow in a way that would,
Carrie:it might sound kind of cheesy, but grow in a way that I would be proud of?
Carrie:And that doesn't mean you have to join 15 things.
Carrie:Join one thing that could be life-changing.
Carrie:To join one community in which you decide to contribute and commit.
Carrie:The other thing is that, yeah, I will just confirm that not
Carrie:all communities are made equal.
Carrie:Someone created them because they heard from somebody else
Carrie:that they should start one.
Carrie:And it's not like that deep drive to create something that do
Carrie:didn't exist in the world before.
Carrie:So yeah, there's a lot of bad communities out there that are
Carrie:probably not worth your time.
Carrie:But if you can be choosy about it and careful about it and deliberate about
Carrie:it, there's a community out there.
Carrie:And if it does not exist, then you can create it.
Carrie:if there's a place that you wish existed, why not be the person that starts that?
Sara:I am so much not a joiner that I don't even identify as not a
Sara:joiner, I identify as a lone wolf.
Sara:Like, firmly in the individual context.
Sara:But I spent last week with a client, with their whole organization
Sara:for their annual offsite.
Sara:And then I went right from there to Atlanta for one of our MotoAmerica race
Sara:rounds, and we had a full team this time.
Sara:It's the most people we've ever managed for a one-bike program with our team.
Sara:And I had, I wouldn't say loneliness, I felt alone after leaving those
Sara:physical spaces with groups of people where I felt belonging.
Sara:I've been here all by myself.
Sara:And I was shocked.
Sara:I love being by myself.
Sara:But I love that belonging is one of the elements that you center also,
Sara:because a lot of us, especially with neurodivergence or social anxiety, spend
Sara:so much time masking that then we might not be putting our feelings or needs of
Sara:belonging first, because we're trying to figure out everybody else's needs.
Sara:So, you mentioned safety in communities.
Sara:For us, my listeners, this kind of cognitive and personality and sensory
Sara:style, who is attracted to this podcast: how might people tell safe or unsafe,
Sara:or more belonging versus less a fit kind of community from each other?
Sara:Is there anything that you would tell people to watch for?
Carrie:Yeah.
Carrie:a couple things, and I'll caveat all of this with: belonging
Carrie:is in the eye of the beholder.
Carrie:So what works for one person might not work for another.
Carrie:and I can even go back to my own statement about communities being bad.
Carrie:Well, who gets to determine that?
Carrie:I'm not the ultimate arbiter of a good and bad community.
Carrie:But I think the most important thing to do when entering into
Carrie:any community, including an online one, is to check your own body and
Carrie:your responses to what's happening.
Carrie:So in a lot of communities, you'll join and then you'll just
Carrie:be like, dropped into a space.
Carrie:And then you're trying to look around and you feel really disoriented.
Carrie:That can be in a physical room that you're in, where you're like, "Where do
Carrie:I go next?" Like, I just put my name tag on, but now I have no idea where to sit.
Carrie:I usually will just gravitate toward any kind of food at that point.
Carrie:Just, "Okay, where's the food?" Or even in an online community, you're like,
Carrie:"Okay, well now which section do I go to and how do I make friends here?" So
Carrie:just being really aware of what's going on and what might have been designed
Carrie:either intentionally or not intentionally.
Carrie:And going where you feel calm I think is really important.
Carrie:If I feel anxious in a space and I can't find a way to regulate
Carrie:myself unless I leave it, that's the information that I need to know if
Carrie:I should continue to show up or not.
Carrie:There's lots to uncover underneath that, but I think that's the most
Carrie:important piece is just being aware of your own body's reactions to
Carrie:the communities you're part of.
Sara:One of the patterns I notice in myself is I get so hyped up and anxious
Sara:about, especially group events and things like that where I don't know,
Sara:people or unfamiliar kind of gatherings, that my interoceptors or my body
Sara:awareness is not good to begin with.
Sara:And so then it just goes right out the window.
Sara:So that is a really good reminder that there are some tools in
Sara:my toolkit for checking back in with myself when I have that.
Sara:I went to a YouTube creator event a few weeks ago here in Seattle where
Sara:I didn't know anybody, except one, my former hairstylist was, and my social
Sara:skills are very rusty post pandemic.
Sara:They definitely eroded during the pandemic because I wasn't forced to
Sara:do group gatherings and be in person.
Sara:But the funny thing about that event was I just named.
Sara:it.
Sara:I just was like, "Yeah, I'm really shy.
Sara:I'm a super big introvert.
Sara:You all do cool stuff on YouTube.
Sara:I talk about goal setting." And just like, instead of trying to be confident
Sara:or whatever we're supposed to be in those situations, I just named it.
Sara:And every single person I talked to said, "Oh, I'm an introvert too."
Carrie:Yeah.
Sara:So it's all out there pretending extroverted in social gatherings
Sara:when we could just be ourselves.
Sara:And then again, like, that's how we find that belonging is by being
Sara:ourselves, letting that show.
Sara:So, let's switch gears and talk about people who have created communities or who
Sara:do actively aspire to create communities.
Sara:What would you say to shy or socially.
Sara:anxious folks who decide they want to take on community creation?
Sara:Do you have any recommended places to start?
Carrie:I've written a book about it.
Carrie:So I would say check out Building Brand Communities.
Sara:And your community?
Carrie:And my community, the CMJ Community, where we share the frameworks
Carrie:around community building and instead of just saying, "Okay, I think I'm gonna
Carrie:build a community. Now I'm gonna go build it," we have a structure and a process
Carrie:to help you to step back and think really deeply before you do create it.
Carrie:And say, "Who do I want to gather?
Carrie:What do they have in common?
Carrie:What needs to be special about this space that I can't find anywhere else?
Carrie:And what else might already be out there also that I might be able to
Carrie:lean on, partner with, whatever else." So that's a big resource. But the one
Carrie:thing that I see happening over and over again with a lot of creators and
Carrie:entrepreneurs who start communities is they think, "Oh, I started a community.
Carrie:Now I have to be available 24/7.".
Carrie:Speaking of myself, I can dissociate really easily, especially
Carrie:if I'm online for too long.
Carrie:As someone with social anxiety, I need to know that.
Carrie:I don't have to give everything of myself and more to run a community.
Carrie:And so I tell this to our clients all the time, is just you get to decide.
Carrie:If this community only meets live once a quarter, hey, guess what?
Carrie:You get to decide I had a client recently say, " I'm gonna give up every Saturday
Carrie:for the next six months to do office hours with my community." And I asked her, I was
Carrie:like, "Is that what you really wanna be doing every Saturday morning for the next
Carrie:six months?" She's like, "No, but that's like the only time people can meet."
Carrie:And I said, "Well, that doesn't sound a time like when you should be meeting.
Carrie:You know, if that's not bringing you energy, maybe once a month you
Carrie:do that." And she's like, "Wait, so I don't have to be available all
Carrie:the time?" No, you pick the rules.
Carrie:That's the great thing about running the community, is you get to create the
Carrie:world that you wish existed, even if it's just like one little, tiny world.
Carrie:That's your little tiny world that you get to set the rules for.
Carrie:And sure, like in collaboration with and in connection with others, you
Carrie:don't have to give everything of yourself, and then more than that.
Sara:So I am a professional community manager going back as long as you.
Sara:Large brand community management in the very early internet days
Sara:through till about 2010, 2011.
Sara:And I learned more in 30 days in your community about setting up a community
Sara:for success, on community management and creating safety and belonging, than in
Sara:my entire career of community management.
Sara:I ultimately decided that managing a community was not for me while
Sara:I was putting the book together.
Sara:And and so it was the best thing ever because I could see it well done.
Sara:And see, "This is not right thing for me right now. It will be sometime."
Sara:But it was just so cool to see it done so well and learn so much just
Sara:from a month or two in your community.
Sara:I'm really careful about recommending communities and spaces, especially
Sara:online communities, because they can be so challenging and sometimes
Sara:hurtful, sometimes harmful.
Sara:But yours is one that I can just unqualifiably recommend.
Carrie:Oh, thank you.
Sara:I'm thinking about like your research brain and what you've
Sara:learned technically about community.
Sara:Is there anything that you think would surprise people in the research?
Carrie:there's so much, actually, I don't know where to begin.
Carrie:And I say that because so much of the conventional wisdom or what
Carrie:we think is true about being in connection with others is wrong.
Carrie:And if that weren't the case, if it were the case that our conventional
Carrie:wisdom about connection was spot on 100% of the time, then we would not be
Carrie:living in the loneliest era of American history, and world history in many cases.
Carrie:And we wouldn't be living in one of the most disconnected times
Carrie:in at least American history.
Carrie:I don't wanna speak on behalf of other cultures.
Carrie:So much of what we think about community is just not what the
Carrie:neuroscience has to say about it.
Carrie:It's not what the social psychology has to say about it.
Carrie:We just did some primary research as a team, and we just found that
Carrie:this very large organization, they have a community that feels an
Carrie:extremely high sense of belonging.
Carrie:We actually ran a surveying project with them, very high belonging across
Carrie:the organization, with a couple of segments that disagreed, that they
Carrie:did not feel a sense of belonging.
Carrie:But what we learned is that they didn't necessarily always say that, "Because
Carrie:I feel a sense of belonging, "I want to participate more," or, "I want to
Carrie:participate more because I have a sense of belonging." They're actually saying,
Carrie:" I feel a sense of belonging because by affiliating with this organization
Carrie:and showing up in whatever way I can, that one, it's accepted and there's no
Carrie:judgment about my participation, and two, I feel able to deepen more into
Carrie:my identity and values around this thing, around the community's topic.
Carrie:And that, in and of itself, is important to me." This goes back
Carrie:to our concept of a quiet community and why that's so important.
Carrie:A quiet community is actually saying, "You don't have to do anything
Carrie:differently or be anything different than who you already are and what you're
Carrie:already doing in order to be accepted here." Simply joining an organization
Carrie:and just being an observer of it.
Carrie:I think you can still feel a sense of belonging there.
Carrie:And especially like, my social needs are not that high for myself personally.
Carrie:Like, I also love to spend time alone.
Carrie:I have a handful of very close friends, and if I only ever saw them for
Carrie:like months at a time, I'd be okay.
Carrie:My spouse is the t otal opposite, and if he doesn't have like his
Carrie:bar nights out with strangers, he he goes a little haywire.
Carrie:Being part of a community does not mean having to contribute everything.
Carrie:It just means saying, " Hey, this is important to me, and I'm gonna bring
Carrie:it in as part of my life." That doesn't mean I have to practice every part of it.
Sara:That is so interesting to hear about the power just of affiliation and like
Sara:connection, even without participation.
Sara:That's wild.
Sara:To hear you talk about that.
Carrie:Yeah.
Carrie:It's so important.
Carrie:There's research on, this is common knowledge at this point, but there's
Carrie:mass distrust of all kinds of organizations, from small community
Carrie:organizations to obviously for-profit enterprises and everything else.
Carrie:So the need to affiliate is very strong, and yet the distrust of affiliation
Carrie:with different organizations is so high.
Carrie:It's really important and interesting to be in this time that we're in
Carrie:and be very choosy about who we affiliate, and what they're doing
Carrie:to create that sense of belonging
Sara:Tell us a little bit about what folks can expect in your book.
Sara:What are they gonna learn and find there?
Carrie:Yeah, so it's really a guidebook.
Carrie:It's written for organizations and organizational leaders, how
Carrie:any organization can thoughtfully invest in relationships with
Carrie:people important to them.
Carrie:So that's often called community, but it doesn't have to be called community.
Carrie:In my work since publishing the book in 2020, we have worked with nonprofits,
Carrie:we worked with spiritual organizations, we worked with schools, any kind of
Carrie:organization that's trying to bring people together that matter to them.
Carrie:And it goes through the most important principles and frameworks
Carrie:to understand to do it really thoughtfully and strategically.
Sara:We've covered a lot of ground.
Sara:Is there anything that you wanna share that I haven't brought up yet?
Carrie:If anything, I would just say that, especially for folks who might be
Carrie:listening who are thinking about building communities, we don't often talk about the
Carrie:importance of the ongoing self-leadership that is important in running a community.
Carrie:What I've found over many years of launching many communities and helping
Carrie:creators launch communities is that it can be a very confronting thing.
Carrie:And what I mean by that is, when you launch a community, all of your internal
Carrie:dialogues about, "Am I doing enough?
Carrie:Am I doing too much?
Carrie:Am I helping people in the way that I said I would be?
Carrie:Am I gonna retreat right now because I just wanna hide from everybody?" All of
Carrie:it comes up in your face. And for me, and this goes back to, like, I've created
Carrie:my entire career about confronting much of my own fears around this. For me,
Carrie:I find that confrontation to be such a gift and an opportunity for me to say
Carrie:either, "Yes, that's a good question.
Carrie:Let me sit with it and answer it." Or, " That question is actually just coming
Carrie:up because of past trauma and fears and things like that, and I just need to quiet
Carrie:it down. And I need to acknowledge that it's there." And that's part of me being
Carrie:like, " Hey, I'm here to protect you.
Carrie:I'm here to keep you safe." And then I could be like, " No, it's okay. I
Carrie:really appreciate you stepping up, but like you can take a little nap now." And
Carrie:what a therapeutic approach to the work.
Carrie:But getting support through that self-leadership is so crucial.
Carrie:And I see so many creators and entrepreneurs burn out
Carrie:when they don't have it.
Carrie:And we have folks in our community who many times have been like, "I
Carrie:don't actually know if I want to keep going." And then we'll get on one
Carrie:coaching call and they'll be like, "Oh, this actually wasn't that serious.
Carrie:I was definitely in a place of dysregulation about this, and now I
Carrie:feel better." So yeah, just really important to have that support.
Sara:Oh, I mean, even hearing you talk through that, I'm like, oh.
Sara:I also don't have to do it all myself.
Sara:Be cause I struggle with every single gremlin you just mentioned.
Sara:And so I'm trying to do a better job of, when my gremlins are
Sara:the barrier, just recognizing, that can be someone else's job.
Sara:I mean, there are people who are really good at whatever
Sara:is setting off my gremlins.
Sara:I think that's part of it too.
Sara:For a lot of us, especially folks who are solopreneurs, we feel like we have
Sara:to do it all ourselves, and it's just a really good reminder that community
Sara:creation and nurturing is challenging enough without feeling like we have
Sara:to force ourselves to do it all alone.
Carrie:Yeah.
Carrie:And in fact, you cannot do it alone.
Carrie:It's not a solo activity.
Carrie:It's just not possible.
Carrie:You're creating something else.
Carrie:If you're creating it entirely alone and getting no support from
Carrie:anybody else, you're essentially creating like one-on-one services,
Carrie:just in a different package, right?
Carrie:To really create a community, you've got to see, recognize, and invite in the
Carrie:gifts of others and others' contributions.
Carrie:And you'd be surprised, people are often just waiting for the
Carrie:opportunity to be generous.
Carrie:People want to be asked for their contribution.
Carrie:Whether that means hosting a call in your community, or bringing their expertise to
Carrie:a workshop that they wanna run with you.
Carrie:We have people in our community who step up as volunteers
Carrie:to welcome in new members.
Carrie:And that's the thing that just makes them feel happy to be
Carrie:able to say hello to new people.
Carrie:And it stresses me out to have to personally welcome
Carrie:everyone as soon as they join.
Carrie:So we said, "Okay.
Carrie:You wanna do this?
Carrie:Here you go.
Carrie:Here's a new person that joined, go say hi to them." Yeah.
Carrie:We have lots of volunteer structure in place in the CMJ community.
Sara:I learned so much by watching how you do it.
Sara:It's so cool.
Sara:So for any listeners who are like, I am gonna build a community, I can't
Sara:wait, I'm super excited, let’s go!
Sara:What would you encourage them to consider or do before they actually get started?
Sara:What's the pre-work that you would recommend before someone turns on that
Sara:Circle account and starts inviting people?
Carrie:That's a great question.
Carrie:I always recommend a couple of things.
One is:start out by talking to people.
One is:Talk to people who you think you might want to invite to be in that community.
One is:And, we teach, as you were mentioning at the beginning of this, we're
One is:very rigorous in how we do this.
One is:We teach a template of questions you might want to ask to members.
One is:But it can just start out as informal conversations like, are you part of
One is:any communities around this topic?
One is:If so, what do you like about them?
One is:What is missing from them?
One is:What can I provide that's different?
One is:So number one: talk to people informally and get their feedback.
One is:And that also starts building up excitement, and people want to support
One is:you as you go through that journey.
One is:That's number one.
One is:And number two is: test it first.
One is:Do a test run.
One is:That might mean hosting one workshop, like, a workshop you'd
One is:like to host in your community.
One is:If that's something you plan to do or one challenge or hosting
One is:the kinds of conversations you might wanna have in the community.
One is:Put them out there and test how they go on a small scale first.
One is:And bring that bodily awareness into how did this make me feel?
One is:Did I feel really anxious going into this and I was able to calm
One is:down and move through that anxiety?
One is:Or did I feel really anxious about this and then I just found it
One is:really overwhelming and I shut down?
One is:I just recommend with everything.
One is:It's about taking small steps every day.
One is:That's how communities are built, is one small next step at a time.
One is:And so start small, and then build from there.
Sara:I also think there's a subtle nuance in something you just said
Sara:that it's not, " Am I anxious?
Sara:And if I'm anxious, don't do it." It's, " Am I anxious to begin, and then I settle
Sara:in and get my role?" Because it's so easy to avoid the things that make us anxious.
Sara:So much of what we have to gain is what happens when we just do it scared.
Sara:It's like I start everything I do scared.
Sara:And then once you get rolling, nothing, starts fun.
Sara:Everything starts with anxiety.
Sara:So I just think that's really wise to not have the standard be what
Sara:can you do without being nervous?
Carrie:Yeah.
Carrie:I have to tell you, I've been doing this for many years.
Carrie:I get nervous before every single call I host.
Carrie:And now I host multiple calls a week in our community.
Carrie:Every single time I get nervous, and by the end of that call, I'm in our slack
Carrie:with our internal team being like, " I love these people" — in all caps.
Carrie:Because we also know that the reaction that our body has to anxiety
Carrie:is very similar to excitement.
Carrie:And so those things can get really mixed up for us.
Carrie:And the nervousness is okay.
Carrie:It's actually just keeping you on your toes in some cases.
Sara:Well Carrie, this has been amazing.
Sara:I knew it would be, but this has been amazing.
Sara:Where can people find out more about you and your work if they wanna hear more?
Carrie:So you can find me on Instagram or LinkedIn, at Carrie Melissa Jones, and
Carrie:then my website is carriemelissajones.com.
Sara:Awesome.
Sara:And anything else you wanna before we drop?
Carrie:Just that it's a long game.
Carrie:Community building and community participation.
Carrie:If you're not planning on launching and leading your own community,
Carrie:becoming involved in other communities is also a long game.
Carrie:And it takes time.
Carrie:Just be patient with yourself, and everything is an opportunity to open up
Carrie:to whatever might be next in your life.
Carrie:yeah.
Carrie:Just take one small step at a time.
Sara:If you're in a community as a participant and you're like, “I don’t
Sara:know if this is for me…” Do you have anything that you would say, try
Sara:or do or consider before you exit?
Carrie:Go back to the onboarding materials and see if you missed something.
Carrie:Nobody ever reads onboarding materials or watches the onboarding video
Carrie:thoroughly enough the first time.
Carrie:Go back and just see if there was an instruction you missed somewhere.
Carrie:Especially in the excitement of joining something new,
Carrie:you can often glaze over it.
Carrie:So, that's number one.
Carrie:And then number two, I would just say, look at who the leaders of that
Carrie:community are and see are these people that you want to surround yourself with?
Carrie:And if yes, then just stick with it a little bit longer.
Carrie:And if no, then don't feel bad.
Carrie:Like it's not a cult.
Carrie:You can leave anytime you want.
Carrie:If it's a cult, like, that's a different conversation we can be having.
Carrie:But that's the whole beauty of communities is that they have permeable boundaries.
Carrie:You should be able to come and go.
Carrie:Otherwise, like I said, that's the definition of a closed cult.
Sara:Yeah.
Sara:So then what about for community hosts who have started a community?
Sara:They're up and running and they're like, “I don’t think this is for me…” or “I
Sara:don’t know if I can do this…” What would you say to someone in that position?
Carrie:Very clearly: simplify.
Carrie:Delete whatever you have going on there.
Carrie:See if you can do 30% less.
Carrie:I have a feeling it will still be more than enough.
Carrie:Delete a space that you've created, delete an event series that you're planning.
Carrie:Just go down to its most simple, what is the easiest possible
Carrie:thing you can do and start there.
Sara:It's fantastic advice.
Sara:Well, Carrie, thank you so much.
Sara:This has been wonderful.
Sara:I can't wait to have you back when we can talk about your book in more detail.
Carrie:Thank you so much for having me.
Carrie:This has been such a fun conversation and great to tap
Carrie:into this like part of myself.
Carrie:I often, I mask a lot.
Carrie:I mask it a lot.
Sara:Well, good.
Sara:Well, this is a safe zone,
Carrie:Yes, I love it.
Sara:All right.
Sara:That was my conversation with Carrie Melissa Jones about community building,
Sara:for those of us who might not naturally gravitate toward group settings.
Sara:I love Carrie's insights that community isn't a sprint, it's a long game.
Sara:Something that takes time, and practice and patience.
Sara:Whether you're participating or building.
Sara:If you're interested in learning more about Carrie's work, you can find her on
Sara:Instagram and LinkedIn as Carrie Melissa Jones, or visit her website at carrie
Sara:melissa jones dot com . Her book, Building Brand Communities offers a deeper dive
Sara:into the frameworks that she's developed.
Sara:What resonated with you from today's conversation?
Sara:Did any of Carrie's insights about quiet communities or the
Sara:power of affiliation even without participation strike a chord for you.
Sara:I'd love to hear your thoughts.
Sara:All right, friends, That's it for today.
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