This is the first of Carrie-Ann's conversations with public sector comms pros focused on how to encourage diversity within the profession and make a career in public sector communications attractive to new talent.

In this episode Carrie-Ann talks with Lisa Ward, a former NHS communications director, about her career so far, challenges she has faced and her thoughts on diversity in communications.

10:46 - storytelling and communications

15:58 - returning to communications from maternity leave

20:29 - menopause in the workplace

30:06 - apprenticeships as a route into communications

46:57 - reaching different communities to recruit

Thank you Lisa for sharing your own journey and experiences to inspire others who are looking to take the next steps in their communications career.

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New episodes of Behind the Bob are published every Wednesday and you can always subscribe via your favourite podcast platform to ensure you don't miss an episode.

You can find out more about Carrie-Ann and Cat's Pajamas Communications at www.cats-pajamas.co.uk

Welcome to Behind the Bob Diary, the comms

director with me, Carrie Ann Wade.

This podcast is all about developing communications leaders of the

future and supporting you to grow and thrive in your comms career.

You'll hear from me about my experiences and insights, and there might even

be a special guest or tea popping up.

So I hope you enjoy.

Hello everybody and welcome to this episode of Behind the Bob, and

it is one of our special episodes where there is a guest, so you don't

just have to listen to me talking.

We've got a fabulous communicator here with us in the guise of Lisa Ward.

So Lisa, welcome to the podcast.

How are you?

I'm very good.

Thank you Carrie Ann, and I'm feeling really honored to be part of your new

series, so it's lovely to be here.

here.

Oh, thank you so much for being here.

So you and I have known each other a fair few years now from

the NHS communications world.

I'll let you introduce yourself and talk a little bit about maybe who you are,

what you are up to at the moment, and perhaps you could tell us a little bit,

Lisa, about your comms career to date.

Thank you.

So I'm Lisa Ward.

I have been in public sector communications for, gosh, this

is going to give away my age.

About 28 years now.

Yes, it is coming out for 28 years in September.

So I started off in cancer research campaign as well.

So I started off in charity comms, actually by accident.

With thanks to my mum.

Actually.

She was helping look for a job.

She spotted this job in PR week, I think it was for a press assistant.

And the rest is history.

So I ended up in a charity, loved it, and then spent some time at

Health Educational Authority.

So worked on the skin cancer campaign.

So there's a lot of stuff around slip, slap, slop, I

dunno if people remember that.

Good campaign.

I do.

So that might be giving my age away as well.

I had the opportunity to do, go around the country and do a

little kind of education and work with other communicators in terms

of helping them to spread the word.

And then I had a bit of a brief foray out into the private sector because I was

in my sort of mid twenties and thought I wonder what it's like in an agency, cause

I knew people had gone into agencies.

I didn't last that long.

I was there about 18 months.

Worked with the pharmaceutical industry.

But it was a really interesting kind of diversion outta the

public sector for a little while.

But I knew I wanted to get back into it because I think it does suck you in.

I also think one of the big things for me is the people in public

communications, and I think that's what always draws me back is.

Like yourself.

And there's, I've got such an amazing network of friends and colleagues

I've worked with over the years and who I'm very much in touch with and,

we'll still have all those kind of helpful conversations about what

to do about particular issues and it's such a supportive community.

And that in terms of, why should you choose public sector communications?

That would be my number one, is I think it is a really great community

in terms of embracing everybody and.

Sharing.

There isn't this sort of, no, I'm not gonna share this information.

I'm not going to share my ideas.

It's absolutely not like that.

I went into government, so worked at the Department of Health for seven

or eight years, which was fantastic.

Real highlights.

Worked with some amazing cabinet secretaries.

Worked on some amazing stuff.

Worked on the Victoria Columbia inquiry, some really big white paperwork.

Probably made some of my closest communications friends there, because I

think when you are working in such a fast paced political environment where who

knows what's going to happen from one day to the next, you get become quite tight.

So that was that was a really great experience and I had the opportunity

to work at number 10 while I was there.

And again, that really gives you that insight as to.

How everyone fits into that big picture and what, happens at the top of the

tree, so that was really good experience.

And then I ventured into the N H S and joined the role Surry as their first ever

head of communications and marketing.

They didn't, they've never had anything.

This was in 2008.

So I had left my.

Very nice job at the Department of Health encouraged by some really great people.

Particularly want to shout out to Matt Tee who I'm sure some of you have heard of.

He really encouraged me to broaden my horizons and go for that bigger job in the

N H s and I'm really grateful that he did.

But I turned up, the chief exec PA had just been answering the

phone to the press on and off.

That was it.

That was all they had.

So I turned up, I had a desk, no computer, no phone.

They didn't really know what to do with me and I remember spending

the first week thinking, do I phone my old boss and ask to go back?

Because it just felt really hard.

And then I just got into the swing of it, started to make the connections with the

people out in other NHS organizations and Spent five years there having established

a proper comm and marketing function, which has gone from strength to strength.

So that's one of the things I'm really proud of because it's

not the easiest thing to do.

I had two very small children at the time as well, so I was much

younger, so I think that helped.

That was a huge thing.

And then that kind of set me off really on that NHS journey and did another.

Head of comms job at Kingston, which is my local hospital.

It's where my children were born.

So that was quite nice to have that local connection with the organization as well.

It's an organization my family uses.

So that was great in terms of really feeling part of that organization.

I had a real vested interest in it being successful, which I think is, not that

I haven't in all my other organizations, but I think when it's part of your

community, it's really important.

And then as Carrie, on where we did quite a lot of work together as NHS providers

as head of communications, and I think one of the most rewarding bits about

that was first of all, bringing that comms network together and really helping

that to fly and connecting people up.

And giving that kind of advice to colleagues because there is always

something that's going on somewhere in the country and it's just helpful

for, I think for them to sometimes have someone who's not totally in

the thick of it to just have that conversation about, what would you do?

And then also putting, connecting people with others as well, who they

may not have been connected with.

And that's another thing I really like is that connections that you can make and.

Thinking I know somebody could really help you with that.

Putting them in touch with the right person.

And then I think the pandemic again, was hugely rewarding

because we were thrown into it.

It felt quite quickly.

I'm sure it did for you.

And I just think we, that opportunity to.

Just be that little bit of support, bit of care for the colleagues across the nhs,

be the voice of the NHS as well, cuz it was very difficult, as for NHS trust and

NHS leaders to go off and say what they wanted to say about what they were doing.

So I think we're able to just offer that role of speaking for our

colleagues, staying in touch with you throughout, keeping people connected,

and I hope helping people to keep going because it was really tough.

And interestingly, that was the thing that made me want to go back into a trust.

Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment, but I missed that being on the front line.

That was when I moved to Portsmouth, which was my last role.

But now I have, I've got a big birthday next year.

So I'm got to that point in life where thinking about what does

the next 10 to 15 years look like.

I spent nearly 30 years doing, Permanent roles and working my way up.

And so I'm now looking to explore maybe something a bit different,

maybe do a bit of freelancing and just see what else is out there.

Because I think you get to a point in that midpoint in your life where you

just think, okay what else can I do?

What else can I offer to people?

How can I consolidate what I've done?

So that's where I am now.

And how exciting for you to be moving into that space

lisa, and so much of what you said is really resonated with me and I'm

still chuckling about the chief execs PA being the press office because I

think early in our careers in the nhs, that seemed to be the model for comms.

So you are right that kind of progressing.

That.

So actually really building com a communications function and bringing

that expertise into an organization is a really rewarding part of

working in our field, I think.

But it did just make me chuckle cause I'm like, I've had that experience too.

So yeah, that was making me laugh a little bit there.

But there was a f firstly, I will say as well, a huge thank you to you in your role

at NHS providers, because actually what I loved about you being in that space,

Lisa, is because you had that experience from being in a provider organization.

I think you had that added bit of expertise and kind of sense of what.

Other NHS comms leads were going through in that provider space and you?

Absolutely.

As are the team at NHS Providers, a real advocate for developing

our profession, which is something I'm really passionate about.

And I think com coms can easily be seen as the kind of add-on

or the fluffy Nice to have.

And it's lovely to work with other comms professionals who.

Absolutely see the strategic value of communications and advocate for that.

A thank you from me and other provider comms leads, I'm sure for

the impact that you had in that space.

So you've talked a bit about the public sector sucking you in.

And it sounds a lot from what you've said, like what's attracted

you to the roles you had.

Is there something for me that you've said about connections and.

Having an impact I think for people seeing that you're having an impact.

Was there anything else that attracted you to working in that public sector

kind of space or has it literally just been the way that your career's taken

you right from that first charity sector role then a natural progression.

I think it's probably a bit of both.

I think there was a natural progression, but I very quickly when I was at cancer

research campaign, the thing that I really loved, so I trained as a journalist,

so I've always loved the storytelling.

And also the kind of human interest side of press and communications.

So I think.

Being a cancer research campaign, a lot of it was around telling the story

because obviously you, your whole point was to try and get more funds

in and get support for the charity.

But I really loved working with the scientists who were doing amazing stuff

to find new kind of breakthroughs and treatments for cancer care and then

meeting those patients and families who have been directly impacted.

I really got sucked into that storytelling and also being able to

just directly meet people who were benefiting from what we were doing.

I suppose back in the office in Central London where we were sit,

sitting and seeing, the difference it was making and also hearing why

people wanted to support the charity.

So that was a really big thing for me is being able to do that.

And then obviously I've always liked to seek out those stories.

And even when I was in government, one of the roles I did, one of

my last roles there was chief Press Officer for the regions.

So this is where I really started to get to know the n h s better.

So I'd worked really closely with colleagues across the country.

I went around the country with Patricia Hewitt, who was the then health secretary.

And so a big part of that was finding those.

Stories looking for where we could go and see what's the kind of government policy

and how it was actually working in real life and how it was affecting patients in

real life and staff as well particularly.

And one of the things she did a lot of actually was then, and this is where it

introduced me to that importance of the engagement of your colleagues and getting

them on board and making sure you are listening colleagues as she did a lot of.

Round tables with a group of staff from various organizations, and

I really saw the impact that had.

So again, they were able to tell their stories, they felt safe to tell them,

and it really helped to inform her kind of decision making in terms of what we

needed to be focusing on as a department.

And then obviously the NHS is full of that, isn't, it's full of the

stories and and I just love them.

Making those relationships and engaging with a variety of people.

And in all of my, particularly my NHS roles, I've always made

sure I've had connections in the organizations at all sorts of levels.

In all sorts of roles.

And you've known me a long time, Carrie and I will pretty much talk

to anyone, I'll talk about anything.

And I just used to like the opportunity to go out and about.

And just find out what it was felt like out there.

And then out of that you'd end up finding out something really amazing and they'd

mentioned, oh, we have this really interesting patient and I think they'd

be happy to tell their story and stuff.

And so it was, it's that stuff that I think is really great.

And that's obviously transferable into all sorts of public sector arenas.

It's that getting to know the people that you are actually looking

after, providing services to.

The staff who are doing that and you know that there are the most incredible

staff stories as well, aren't there?

That you all hear just their journeys in terms of how they've got to where they

are and why they've, they're passionate about particular thing that they do.

And so again, I think that's, if you like storytelling, if you like to

be able to see what your small role in that organization can do and the

direct impact it has on people's lives, I think again, that's a.

Great reason to think about the public sector because you, if

you want it, you'll have that opportunity in spades, I would say.

I love that.

Thank you, Lisa.

And I think, yeah, the public sector offers the chance.

I feel like communicators are naturally.

People, if that makes sense.

I would just definitely describe you as a people person.

And that's seeing that impact for other people I think is a really

important part of why we do what we do.

So I think that's a really great example of that.

So I'm gonna move us into a slightly different space in the conversation now.

Cause we've talked about lots of the positives and it has been really

great to hear about your kind of career journey as a communicator.

But I was intrigued to know whether.

You've experienced any barriers or blockers in your communications career to

date that you'd be happy to share with us?

So I think it wasn't a bit of a barrier, but I would say this

is when I first felt I experienced a little bit of discrimination, but

interestingly from other colleagues, not necessarily my, I suppose my boss

at the time, so when I was at Department of Health, I had my first child, I was

a chief press officer and it was not something that many people had done.

Was go on maternity leave.

It's quite a young profession and it's busy.

It can be around the clock.

And so I went through a whole pregnancy.

I did a lot of going around the country with John Reed while I was

quite heavily pregnant as well, and went off on maternity leave, came

back sort of six, seven months later.

Full term, full time.

And it was quite and I needed to get back to work.

I knew I'd always want to work once I'd had children.

And so I used to share all the childcare in terms of the nursery

pickups and drop-offs with my husband, Tim, really good that he had a

very supportive employer as well.

So I would be going in very early on the days where I had to leave

earlier to go to nursery, and then obviously I would stay later if I'd.

Dropped Xavier off at nursery, but there were definitely a few comments about,

oh, you're leaving already, are you?

And whereas I would've been in the office probably two hours before most

people, cuz I knew I had to leave early.

And then a few things around, oh, you might not be able to do

that because you've got a baby.

Not much, but I proved everybody wrong, I think.

And there was a bit of, oh, is Lisa up to it?

She used to be really good and interestingly, really tragic event, but

it helped me to get back into the groove was the seven, seven bombings was about

five weeks after I went back to work.

And I think I probably was not floundering, but just finding it

hard to get my mojo back because.

When you've got a six months old baby and you are trying to work in a busy

government press office, it's quite a lot.

And my brilliant boss, John Hibbs, who is now an NHS communicator,

he's an he's a director in the nhs.

He said to me you're in charge today.

You're in charge.

You're gonna deal with all the stuff.

You'll have to go to Cobra and you'll have to set up a kind of, press

briefing just so we can explain, what the NHS is doing in response.

Best thing he ever did.

And I think it was after that I proved to people that you could do it.

And I've had people since say to me, you were an absolute trailblazer

because we hadn't seen many people like you have a baby come back

full-time and just get on with it.

And there's been a number of female, younger female colleagues since you said,

you inspired me that I could do that too.

And although at the time it felt hard and I felt a little bit like an outsider,

oh, that's the one with the baby.

I'm glad that it helped others to feel that yes, I can do that too.

So I think that was The first one and I think one of the barriers

would say would be my own barrier.

So I am a people person and I give the kind of I suppose I am fairly confident,

but I think sometimes my lack of faith in myself and thinking, oh, I can't

do that, maybe has stopped me going for certain things over the years.

It's that classic, I hate it.

Imposter syndrome.

You look at a job, think I can't do all of that, so I won't bother.

And I think sometimes not always having the confidence to say what I

really think, trying to hone the line.

So I think sometimes that's put my own barriers in place.

I've, as I'm on a bit of a, as I said, I'm, I've had a bit of a break.

I've had a bit of a think, and I think it's about thinking about how I.

To make sure I'm being really authentic in whatever role I do next.

And then I think also, again one of the reasons I have taken a bit of a

step back is that I'm going to talk about the menopause a little bit.

I hope that doesn't put people off.

Cause I know there's a lot of stuff around the menopause.

But I think, again, one of the things, I think all organizations.

Need to get better at.

And I think it is getting better.

I was talking to a, an older colleague the other week who's 10

years ahead and she said, when I went through it, nobody talked about it.

It was not mentioned and you wouldn't be able to mention it.

And so at least now it is talked about, there is a lot more awareness than

organizations, but, I did feel, that it was difficult to manage everything

while going through some quite difficult menopause symptoms and periods of time.

So I think again, it's not necessarily a barrier, but I think sometimes you have

to evaluate what you can do, how you can look after yourself, and I've been

very fortunate that I've been able to take that step back, make the decision.

To do something a bit different and make sure that I'm as well as I can be.

So I think I'd like to see more of that support for, cuz everyone will go

through it, and particularly the NHS is a massively female or organization

I hope that just gets better and better in terms of understanding that.

It isn't just about hot flushes and it isn't just about stopping

your periods, it's about it impacts so much more than that.

And I'd like to see that there is increasing awareness and support for

women going through that because, it might just be a few little adjustments

that are needed in terms of the flexibility and that side of it.

And so I think, I am seeing it get better.

And I just hope that continues cuz I wouldn't want people to

think that they couldn't be doing, the big senior jobs or any job,

while going through the menopause.

I, I think you've raised some really interesting

points and a lot resonate with me.

And I would say my own personal experience of the menopause has been one

of the most challenging things for me.

Like you say, it's not always about the obvious things, hot flushes periods,

but actually I just lose my words.

And I can't.

And as a communicator that feels really disempowering.

I, to the point where I'm having to try and describe the word.

Like the other day I was like, can you pass me the the cutty things

with the plastic handles on the end?

And it's like scissors.

It's yes, scissors.

But it's literally flown from my brain and it's, it is really nerve wracking I find.

And

it is.

Yeah.

And I think for me the anxiety was the probably the worst bit, which

I'd never really suffered with before.

Quite overwhelming.

And like you say, just that ability to remember things,

it does mess with your brain.

And so I think, it's just people having more awareness that it's

such a broad thing, isn't it?

Menopause.

I think there's something like, 37 symptoms aren't there

now that they've identified.

And I did feel at one point I had pretty much all of them, but yeah, so I think

it it's good that it's been taught about a lot more and I do feel for those women

who behind us, went through quite a lot and suffered a lot by themselves, I think.

Yeah.

And you, I think you've started to touch on it a bit in terms of what.

What we might be able to do to try and reduce some of those

challenges for other people going forward and around the menopause.

I definitely think it's about that educational piece, more understanding,

thinking about what employers can do to support women to stay in the

workplace, whether that's a small adjustment or maybe a bigger one.

Just being able to do that and it's the other end of.

The spectrum in some respects.

I guess it's the same around the maternity piece that

yes.

you know what, what is it that we can be doing to make

it easier for really good expert communications professionals and others.

My interest is in comms people, but isn't just about communicators.

How can we keep these really good people in our organizations and our

workplaces and make it easy for them?

To experience what their experience, whether that's through

motherhood or menopause, but also be able to do their jobs as well.

Yeah, exactly.

And I think it's also around supporting fathers to do that as well because I

think sometimes that's even harder is for our male colleagues to be able to

put their hands up and say, actually I need to have some flexibility

as well because I'm caring for my children cuz they are my children.

So I think I've always made sure, and I think because of results of.

Feeling like I was one of the first to do what I did in the organization I was

in has been very understanding and and supportive of that need for flexibility.

Cuz for me, I've never really watched the clock.

I don't really look at how many hours somebody does for me.

It's around that deliverable.

Are they doing what we need them to do in that role?

And are they happy?

Are they supported?

Are they thriving?

A and not necessarily.

Wow.

I think they might have left half an hour early.

It, I think that's rubbish.

I think it's very outdated.

I just think we need to be a lot more flexible in terms of, the hours

people work and how they might work.

I understand there's always going to be, need to be in certain meetings

in certain times of day, I get that.

But I do think there is.

More we can do, and not just around childcare or other

caring responsibilities.

I think it's also around supporting people's mental

health and their wellbeing.

So if it helps them to have a two hour break in the day to go and

do some exercise or do something different and that energizes them

and they come back, and they're able to smash out the afternoon.

Brilliant.

Absolutely happy to support that.

I think.

I think there's.

We need to trust that people, if you give them that flexibility

and you give them that care and support, you'll get more outta them.

That's absolutely what I've seen.

Yeah.

And it's refreshing to hear that because I don't think we hear that

enough from leaders in organizations.

But I also think if I think about the role that communicators play

in their organizations, I think communicators are immensely flexible and.

My experience of comms professionals is they always go above and beyond.

The pandemic that you mentioned earlier is an excellent example of that, isn't it?

Like people, out of hours, support, crisis management, all of that stuff

where communicators give a lot to their organization in terms of not

only time, but energy and expertise.

So actually, To be able to give that back, to help somebody to manage what's going

on in their life feels really important.

So I ha I hope people listening to this who are aspiring comms

leaders or are already comms leaders have the same outlook as you.

Cuz I think that is really healthy.

And I know we've talked previously in conversations, Lisa, about, you

can't look after everyone else if you are not looking after yourself.

And that's an important part of it.

But I still feel.

There is this culture of having to ask permission to

look after your own wellbeing.

And we need to crack that.

So yeah, I'm, I people need to be more Lisa is what I'm getting

from that co that conversation.

So

Thank you.

I was very kind.

Thank you for sharing.

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I'm just going you've talked a bit about this already, I think in terms of

some of the highlights of your career so far, particularly around some of

the campaigns that you've supported.

But what ha what have for you have been the standout moments in your comms career?

Cuz we've talked about some of the challenges, but I never like for

it all to be about the difficult.

Stuff.

I like to celebrate success as well.

So what have been some of your standout moments in your career, Lisa?

so I would definitely come back to Royal Surey.

So going, coming from nothing to building up a team.

Bringing in comms and marketing, setting a strategy for the organization

and getting buy-in from many people across the organization, and

particularly some of the clinicians.

So I made it my business to go out and meet as many as possible.

Go back to that storytelling piece, just to understand,

what made raw story stand out?

What should we be telling people about it?

And.

I think one of the greatest things is I had a very tricky conversation

with one of the consultants who didn't really understand the point of me.

This was when I hadn't been there very long, and then only six months

later he came back to me, apologized and asked me to help him design

his website pages and there was a small thing, but I felt that, by.

Putting that effort in.

And also, but by showing the organization that things were different,

they felt different for a start.

They had regular communications out to the organization, cuz they were hearing

about what was happening from the local papers or occasionally, something might go

out from the chief executive, but people felt that they were part of something

and they were, they had more, they had that advance notice on other people.

And then not long after that, we did that.

Remember the days where people applied to be foundation trusts?

So three month public consultation.

So that was done.

I'd only been in the org less than a year.

So around this big consultation, we were successful.

And that feeling of, I, I played a really big part of that, spent a lot of time.

In deepest winter, in very cold church halls in Surrey and Hampshire.

Explaining to people and it was always quite hard to explain to people, why

do we want to be a foundation trust?

And then helping to set up that first stuff for Council of Governors.

So that stuff was very different to what I'd done before in government, but

really rewarding because we'd started, as I said, I started with a desk and.

Ended up with this proper function, a lovely big office for us all.

It was it was great.

So I'd say that was a definite highlight.

And then just going back to government, just being able to work on some of the

kind of major campaigns and major kind of policy announcements that we did.

So one of the first things I did was work on Victoria Columbia inquiry.

So Victoria, Columbia, you may remember, but for those that don't, was a little

girl who was murdered by her relatives.

After sustaining a lot of abuse, it was a very long running inquiry and

so very new to government, had the honor of being given this really

big piece of work to put together.

And, pulled together a really, a report was pulled together.

We did a lot of work with the media, a lot of work with stakeholders.

And so again, although, I think the one that thing that does sadden me

is that we have seen a lot more of those types of cases since then.

However, at the time it was quite groundbreaking.

It was one of those first.

Major inquiries into why did this happen, what needs to change.

And I do hope eventually more will change, but again, it was a,

real privilege to work on that.

And then I think also just my most recent role, that was

my first board director role.

So being able to have that seat at the table as a communications

and engagement professional.

It is a huge honor.

I've obviously attended board and sat on the sidelines and contributed when

asked, but it was a huge privilege to be sat around the table with the board

of the organization and to have my voice heard and to be able to contribute

to that wider strategic operational direction of the organization and have

that wider impact and also, Just show that how important it's to have comms and

engagement around that table because it is that slightly different voice to others.

Sometimes I think we do think a bit differently and we're always thinking

about how will that affect the people at the other end of it, have we thought about

how we might tell the patients about this?

And also looking for the positives a lot.

We're always.

I think generally quite a positive bunch of people because we'd want, we

know we're in it to spread the good news and try and find those, that

sort of chinks of light sometimes in, particularly in the nhs, which it's

tough, it is tough at the moment and it's been a tough four years, hasn't it?

Even before the pandemic, it wasn't a bed of roses.

And I think it's just it's a hard old organization to be in and.

I think what I've always been happy to do, and particularly in my last role,

was bring a bit of joy, and put on things like a really lovely award ceremony and

bring staff together and just, so we did something called Appreciation April,

just to kick off the new financial year, and that was really around looking back

and celebrating what we had achieved and then involving the organization

in looking forward and asking them.

How might we deliver what we need to deliver this year?

What do you think we need to do?

What needs to change?

And what can you do to help do that?

And then as part of that, we had something called Proud to be P H U.

And so again, it's just getting people to think about what are those

things that do make them proud?

And it can be really small, but I think it's important that, we do that.

And I think being an exec and having the opportunity to Do that and be that

kind of role model for people is great.

And I think also to be, to show other communicators that you

can end up round the table.

It's not necessarily an easy journey.

And I think as we've all experienced, many people think they are

communications professionals.

And I think it's about just making sure you show what the added value

is and that actually those years of experience and those years of.

Having to use your judgment and just all that experience of dealing with

many different situations just does make you stand out from everyone else.

And so I hope people can see that they can have that, an amazing career

from starting right at the bottom.

My first ever of job, I basically had to, this the days before the

internet guys where we had physical newspapers to cut out all the national

newspapers, every single story.

Related to cancer or the organization, stick them on bits of paper and

photocopy them 20 times and then physically walk them around the building.

I think you start from there.

But then I've also never forgotten.

That's what I've done.

So I'm still quite happy to stuff an envelope or walk around

and deliver stuff if I need to.

I think that's another important thing to remember as well, is that however far

you making up the greasy pole, don't be afraid to get your hands dirty still.

oh, I think that's excellent advice.

And I think all the examples that you've given there is

highlights of your own career.

Just really demonstrate the breadth of opportunity and what you can get involved

in as a communicator in your career.

And I think that's, Definitely one of the things that I've loved is that

variety, like genuinely, no two days are ever the same when you work in NHS

communications or I guess any other sphere of comms, particularly in the public

sector though I think because as you've highlighted, we are in such a spotlight

in terms of the media and sometimes I think others can perceive us looking

for those good news stories as bit.

Oh, that's a nice to have.

But I think actually, I.

The role of doing that is so important in reminding people why we do what

we do and what we are here for, because we can so easily be sucked

into some of the negativity and the difficulty and the challenge

of working in the NHS or the public sector that we can be a bit, blinded

to actually what are we all here for?

And I think.

Our profession plays a huge role in demonstrating what we are here for

in terms of the people that we serve.

So I think you've given some really brilliant examples and it's been

a privilege for me to hear more about your career highlights to

date and the ones that I don't know about pre nhs, which is lovely.

One of the things that we talk about a lot and the reason that I wanted

to hear about your highlights was, Because I think in our profession we

sometimes struggle to encourage people to see it as a career option of choice.

So whether that's NHS comms specifically or the broader public

sector comms, I'm never sure it feels quite so exciting or glossy or dare

I use the word sexy as working as a communicator in a different sector.

And I think one of the other things that we struggle with in our

profession is that diversity and.

I just wondered from your point of view, why should communicators consider

a career in public sector comms, but also what can we do to encourage more

diversity in this space and in this field?

Do you have any thoughts?

So I think on the diversity front, sadly, I think my experience,

early experience of being in public sector comms is it was a certain mold of person.

Who was in it.

There wasn't a huge amount of diversity and although I'm university

educated and everybody I worked with was, I don't think that's

necessarily something you need at all.

I'm increasingly, I think having two teenagers who, I'm seeing that there

are so many other route to getting what you need out of your life, and

one of the things I did at Kingston actually is took on an apprentice.

They hadn't had a communications apprentice before.

They'd had apprentices in various other parts of the organization, but I asked

for one, and I can remember going along to talk to these very scared looking 16

year olds about why they should join the communications team as an apprentice and.

Trying to sell it to them as the, no two days are the same.

You can do anything from working with the media, updating the social

media, designing a website doing some internal communications,

getting to do a bit of graphic design, potentially, writing stories.

Putting on events and then there'll be other things that are thrown at you

that you did not expect to do that day.

And just as an aside, I can always remember the funniest phone call I had

when I was at Royal Surry is that there were some ducks who had set up a nest

in the middle of one of the courtyards, and did I know what to do about it?

And I remember thinking, really not sure why that's, and we

didn't know who else to ring.

And it's that classic.

So we rang communications.

we're the problem solvers, aren't we?

Lisa, if we've got a problem, come to comms, they'll work out how to solve it,

even if it's not a communications thing.

Yeah, so that was just an aside, but I think, so we ended,

I ended up with this amazing girl called Meg, who joined our team at 16.

She was, wouldn't say boot to Goose probably for the first month or so.

And then I had a really brilliant cons manager, Holly, who trained her up, worked

really closely with her, and within six months she was like a different person.

She was going out into the organization, taking photographs, asking people

questions, helping to start right things, we, we sent her on a number of

training courses and really got her.

Trained up and she'd left school with not a huge amount of qualifications

at 16 and was really struggling to work out what she was going to do.

And I just, we just saw something in her.

She wanted to do it.

And I'm just trying to think now, how many years later is it?

It must be eight years later now.

Yeah, eight, nine years.

She's still in communications.

She's still in HS.

Communications.

She has worked her way up.

And that's from, coming into our office all those years ago

and looking a bit frightened.

And the best thing is, and I've still got this, her mum emailed me six

months in and just, and it made me cry.

And it still makes me feel quite emotional now.

When she said you have changed her life.

I've, I have a completely different child, you've given us, you've given her a reason

to get up in the morning and she loves it.

So I just wanna say thank you and.

It's that thing, that sort of thing.

That is why I do what I do.

Because she wa on paper you'd go, gosh, she can't work in

communications, but she can.

And I think this is the thing is you've just got to give people a chance and

you've got to take the time to just work with them and figure out what they need.

Because I think.

Anyone can do it.

I don't, you don't need a degree, you don't need a master's.

I know I probably shouldn't be saying this because I know there's lots of

people who do all of that, but if you wanna come in and start, at the

bottom, you can still make your way up.

You can still have an amazing career in communications.

Sorry I'm How much you got A little to now?

Cuz

Me too.

Stop it.

I'm like, oh, gonna cry now.

It's just one of those real highlights for me.

The other thing I did at, with Adam when we were at providers

is we started the comms trainee.

So this was really inspired by Ranjit, who we both know really well, who's

done a huge amount, I think, in terms of that, in increasing diversity.

He's a real role model for that as well, in terms of, look, you can do this.

And so we bought in our own first of comms trainee.

And again, it is just brilliant because, so many of the jobs say you need one

to two years experience or a degree or a master's, and it's so it's just

taking a chance on someone who hasn't done a day's work in communications,

but has the drive to drive and it's just investing a bit of your time.

And I have to say, and that's what puts people off.

Oh.

Time and we'll have to sit with them and train them and stuff.

But you know what, the reward is huge.

And I think it's the same with, I've always encouraged work experience as

well, because people won't know what it's like unless you give them the chance.

And there are always those little gems.

And I think in terms of the diversity, I think it is around us trying to

work out how we do reach out to those communities and those people who

might not think that they can do it.

And.

Making sure that we have the right role models.

So telling, Meg's story, I was an apprentice and we did tell her story.

And there was an apprentice at Portsmouth who ended up winning

Apprentice of the Year, because of just what she'd managed to achieve.

So I think we've just gotta make sure we are telling those stories so that people

see people like them and go, oh, okay.

That's a similar background to me.

I could do that.

So that, I don't have loads of pearls of wisdom, but I think it's,

you just gotta put a bit of effort in, but the reward's massive.

I love that.

I love that.

I was getting emotional when you were telling

I know.

I know.

about Meg yeah, it's and it's really powerful, isn't it?

It's that taking a chance, giving opportunities to people.

But I love what you said about sh showing people.

There's, there are different routes into this.

You don't have to go down a traditional route.

And I, myself, I do have a degree now, but I didn't when I started my

Career at all, and actually I I think I'd had three jobs in NHS comms before

I decided that I wanted to do a degree.

And that wasn't for my career progression.

That was something that I wanted to achieve for me, and I did my degree

whilst I worked full-time in NHS comms.

So you absolutely don't have to have that.

I'm coming in ready formed, ready made with all the academic side of

things and quite often I feel like a lot of recruitment into teams that

I've built has been about people having the right attitude, the right

values, the desire, and you can teach the techie stuff, can't you?

So I think,

you can, and I always have a really good feeling about

most of the people have had a really good feeling about almost

five minutes into meeting them.

Have turned out to, to be absolutely the right people.

Doesn't always work, but I'd say probably 90% of the time,

you get that feeling, don't you?

That, they have got the right attitude.

Their values are good.

And actually, I think all the other thing with comms, it's you are tight as

a team and you've gotta think about will they work with the rest of the team?

That is such an important thing.

And again, I think it's important to.

Potentially let them meet the team before they start as well, as part of that.

One of the brilliant things while we're on recruitment

and we're giving shout outs to some amazing comms people, by the way, so

yes, big up Ranjit for everything that he does and genuinely role modeling

everything that he talks about, but also.

We're talking about recruitment.

I love that.

Jack Adlam, who is one of the comms directors now at an acute trust he

shares interview questions before interviews with people, which I just love.

And I don't know why we don't do that as a standard.

So if people are feeling anxious or get a bit overwhelmed, they've already

had an opportunity to have a bit of prep time in a way that's useful.

Cuz often it can be overwhelming preparing for an interview, can't it?

Cuz you don't actually know.

What's gonna come at you, what examples you might want to have ready.

And in that situation, particularly if you've not had a lot of interviews,

you're early on in your career, I think you can do the, oh my mind's gone

blank, or I would, my mind would go blank with menopause issues to be fair.

So actually that's a lie that it's about being early in your career.

But but I think, having that ability to just.

See that before you go in, I think might actually be something that could

help people with that confidence and self belief that we've also talked

about in this conversation, Lisa.

So I love people just doing things a bit

yes, and I think that's really important because I, I think you, in

interview shouldn't be an interrogation.

You're not sitting an exam.

And I always think it's more it's equally about they're

interviewing you, because it's a big decision to join an organization.

So it is a two-way street.

And so I hope, I try and make people feel as comfortable as

possible and I like to think.

I'm having a really good conversation rather than, grilling somebody and

feeling like they've gotta live up to some sort of expectation.

It should be just a really healthy conversation.

absolutely.

So I could talk to you all day, Lisa, but I know you've probably got other things

that you'd like to do with your day.

I'm gonna try and wrap us up if I can, and just say on that kind of

topic of considering a co comms career in the public sector and

supporting some of that diversity.

Aspect that we've talked about.

Is there one practical step out, some of the things that you've shared

that listeners could take today to encourage more diversity and different

people into a career in public sector?

Comms

I think as managers and leaders, it is around.

for opportunities to reach out to different parts of your community.

So for example, if you're offered the chance to get an apprentice,

take it and make that work.

There's also things like the project choice as well, which

is helping people who have, particular neurodiversity issues.

And so I'm speaking of somebody as the mother of a child who's got a

D H D, I would like to think that.

He is given opportunities as well.

So I think again, it's about taking those opportunities, also trying to

reach out to, particular parts of your community, posting about what you do,

posting about things that might attract someone who's thinking that's not for me.

And trying to give them examples of how it can be for them.

So I think we, we have a responsibility as people who've

had, very successful careers.

To, and I heard a great phrase a few years ago, throw that ladder back down, and

throw it back down to as wide a net as possible, so that we are encouraging those

people who may not have smashed out the park in their GCSEs and their A levels.

But I've got so much to give and, can be a massive asset to, or, to our teams and

lots of different organizations and have, potentially a lot of lived experience that

they can really bring to the organization.

Said, Lisa, and as you talked about throwing

that ladder back down, I had.

Visions of it being one of those big rope kind of net things that you see

on assault courses where loads of people can climb up at the same time.

So it's not just one little narrow ladder, it's that big kind of rope

wall that everybody can scramble up.

I

Thank you for putting that image in my head and

thank you for reminding me about my responsibility to do just that as

well as a leader in our profession.

I've had an absolute blast talking to you, Lisa.

Thank you for sharing so much.

And you know what I've loved about this conversation is I

think it represents what we do as professionals, cuz we've touched on.

Successes, really great stuff.

Highlights, we've talked about some challenges as well, and the breadth

of the conversation in such a short space of time, I hope, has been really

insightful for people listening.

Thank you so much for being part of the podcast series behind the

Bob, and good luck with whatever adventure comes next for you.

While you're working that out, I'm gonna keep my beady eye on it to know

what you are up to next, Lisa and maybe we'll be inviting you back at some

point to talk about what's next for you.

Thank you so much for being part of the podcast.

Thank you so much for inviting me.

I've had a, I've had a really great time and it's just been nice to

reflect and talk about something I'm really passionate about.

I'm hugely passionate about what we do.

I think it is an absolutely brilliant profession and there are so many

different things you can do.

I love

thank you.

I'm gonna leave it there.

I'll leave that dangling for everybody.

Thank you so much, Lisa.

I've really appreciated it.

Take care.

thank you.

And you.

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