In this episode, the hosts take a critical look at the inner workings of the judicial system.  They shine a light on judicial transparency, misconduct, and the far-reaching impact of judicial decisions on litigants' lives.

One major concern raised is the potential conflict of interest between judges and the media. They recount troubling instances of judges allegedly leaking to the press in high-profile cases and explicitly question whether the current a retired judge, is a spokesperson who squashes negative stories to protect judges' reputations.

Their conversation further explores alarming patterns of judicial behavior, including decisions made outside formal proceedings (ex parte communications) and favoritism toward select attorneys such as Guardians Ad Litem (GALs) and Friends of the Court (FOCs). 

The hosts share personal experiences, including a disturbing case where a judge ordered financial payments without a filed motion or hearing, based solely on an off-the-record discussion with opposing counsel.

They highlight the lack of accountability for such misconduct, pointing out that formal complaints rarely result in public consequences—often allowing problematic behavior to persist unchecked. 

The episode concludes with a powerful call for judicial reform, advocating for everyone to speak out. 

Let's go to the courthouse.

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So you was there and let's see how many

of the 37, 39 judges there are, right?

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Wait.

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13, 10.

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16, right.

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39.

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Hugh: Yep.

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Christine: How many do you think?

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Let's make a bet.

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You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

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We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

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Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

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two lawyers determined to save the system.

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We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: I think too, like our local

judges are the predominantly the sources.

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Like I know for a fact that,

uh, like Joan Byer was a source

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for Courier Journal 100%.

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Hugh: Oh, she, she would lie about

not letting the li, letting the press

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in a hearing, and she would, oh, I've

had her tell me that she was going

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to let us come in at a specific time

because I had a high profile case.

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And the court, the, the press was kind

of around the courtroom looking for us.

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Come in this way.

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Come in on this floor.

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I'll, I'll, I'll even

let you in the back door.

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We'll come in.

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We'll get it done before the press, you

know, can, can pick up on it because I

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know that this could affect your, your

client's reputation and like this stuff.

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Okay, great.

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I mean, you don't have

to do that as a judge.

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Yeah.

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It's supposed to be public if

the press is there, but great.

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I'm gonna take advantage of that

as an advocate for my client.

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Well, I get there and not only are

they in the courtroom, but they've

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obviously had all the time in the world

to set up and she starts by making a

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statement and totally different than

the way she would normally do it.

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Yeah.

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And she just set it up, the whole thing.

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And, uh, I remember walking in and

just, I just realized I'd be like, yep.

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This is she absolutely has

set this up to grandstand.

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Yep.

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And I think

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Christine: that's the system.

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Like, so then the news is like, well,

the judge is my source and then I can get

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clickbait, and now they just go down to

the courthouse and watch the arraignments.

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I mean, that's the only

thing they seem to report on.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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But I mean, so think about this.

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You have a judge who is

a source for the media.

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Yeah.

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And you have something that mine was a

alleged alleged domestic violence, case.

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It was someone who was prominent that

people in the community would've heard

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about and it could have affected his job.

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and the judge as a source has this

the press there and they're going

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to see how she rules on this case.

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Mm-hmm.

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That the public is going to think,

oh, this guy's a terrible guy.

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Right.

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You think there's any pressure

on her to rule in a specific way?

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Are you kidding me?

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And that, that was one something that I.

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In the middle of it, I asked for a

recess to talk to opposing counsel

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and got something worked out very

favorable for my client because it

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was just so obvious that she was

grandstanding, she was grandstanding

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about the issue, about domestic violence.

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And in fact, when we settled it and

agreed to handle it in the divorce

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case that was being filed by opposing

counsel, um, she did everything in her

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power to talk them out of settling it

and was playing it up for the cameras,

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like pushing and pushing and pushing

to get the parties to not agree on.

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But she never

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Christine: would've done if it

was pro se or she never would've

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done if it was not, if it was just

a typical domestic violence day.

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Yes.

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Hugh: So yeah, them being a

source and having them, inviting

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them into the courtroom.

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I think on its face doesn't look

like a conflict of interest, but if

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you are ruling on something right,

that the public would be outraged

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if you ruled in a different way.

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Right.

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Regardless of what the

facts or the case dictated.

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That's such a clear conflict of interest,

and I know, uh, you're, you're right.

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That's the one person I know that

was a regular source for the press.

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I know it happens in other places.

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I just, I, you probably know

a lot better than I do who

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those other sources might be.

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Christine: Yeah.

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Well, we, in Louisville, we've got Micha

Van, who is the court administrator,

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but he's a retired judge and he

actively is a spokesperson for judges,

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which I think is a violation of.

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The judicial cannons.

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I mean, really, they shouldn't have

a spokesperson, a press secretary,

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talking about rulings, like in,

in a way to control the media.

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But I know for a fact he squashed the

story with WDRB when we had the selfie

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recording of the TikTok judge, like they

were going to do a story on it, like 100%.

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And then he filled out some questions,

basically just saying that I didn't

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understand things and that the judges

have a right to educate the public.

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Hugh: That's interesting.

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Yeah.

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So I mean, I, I, I don't, I, it's hard

for me to weigh in on that 'cause I don't

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know what the actual position entails.

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Right.

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I can see it being, you know, if he

represents the judiciary here and I mean,

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there's gotta be a PR aspect to that.

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And I can see that being

correct for him to do.

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From, uh, this is your job kind of thing.

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Yeah.

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But then you also, he's a judge.

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He's an ex judge.

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He's representing judges.

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You have different rules than, than

most other employees or most other

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people that would be in a position.

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I don't know enough about it.

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I would be speaking out of

ignorance, but I That is fascinating.

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It makes me, it makes

everybody feel a certain

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Christine: kind of way.

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Right.

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You know,

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Hugh: but I mean, ultimately the result is

acting to keep, I mean, it's interesting

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to say the judges have an obligation to

educate the public, but in, in effect,

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what you're doing by making that statement

and defending the judge's behavior is

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making sure that the public doesn't get

to know about that particular instance.

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Literally, you just, just keeping,

keeping, uh, keeping the judiciary here

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in this county from being embarrassed

by the activities that just look

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really bad from one particular judge.

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Oh man,

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Christine: McKay.

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Um, and then I don't think the Courier

Journal, they're not gonna report

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on anything unless it is about a

politician first as far as family court.

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So obviously they covered

Matt Bevin's case.

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Um, but I don't think that I've

ever seen anything in the Courier

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Journal, criticized critical

of outcomes of family court.

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Have you,

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Hugh: I think there have been some weird

opinions, that I've heard that there were

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articles critical of, but I think it was,

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and, and I'll have to look,

but I mean, there's been.

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Judges who refuse to grant a

divorce to someone for odd reasons.

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Yes.

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That was Monica

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Christine: Mari Meredith

outta Bullock County.

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Yeah, but that's not Louisville.

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Hugh: No, that's not in Louisville.

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I think something was written about it.

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I think granting custodial

rights to a fetus.

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Oh.

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Warranted a few articles in the press.

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I don't think,

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Christine: did the

courier write about that?

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Hugh: I don't know that the courier did.

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I, what I know is no one that I

knew from outside of the legal

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community, outside of the family

law community even knew about it.

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But I think that it did get talked about

maybe in some small way in some press.

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And so for

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Christine: a reference, this is

Judge, um, almost said Adams Judge,

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Lauren Ogden, that declared, I guess

a fetus, a child, and awarded custody

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of a fetus to a pregnant mother

without confirmation that she was

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Hugh: pregnant.

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Temporary custody, I believe at a DI

believe that it was a DVO hearing.

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It was.

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And, and the woman claimed to

be pregnant and she awarded.

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Yeah,

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Christine: I think it was on Zoom too.

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Maybe not.

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I could be wrong on that, but

that sounds like division four.

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Hugh: It's, I mean, it's it's an odd

circumstance and I, I think I remember

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reading something about it, although

it may have been on someone's blog.

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Okay.

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Um, I typically, most of what I've, I

hear about that our judges do is from

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other attorneys, um, blogs or, you know,

people that write short articles about

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published opinions and things like that.

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Less in the courier, anywhere like that.

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Christine: But people are much more

likely to touch traffic court or

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family court than they ever are,

you know, circuit court felony stuff

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or high asset, um, fights there.

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And so it's just perplexing to me

that there's not more reporting on it.

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Hugh: I also think, if I'm a reporter,

a multi-day jury trial or a jury trial

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where you're gonna get a ruling that

day, you're waiting for the jury to

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come back, that is far more interesting.

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if you're making a report.

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for the daily news or you're doing

a news piece, on air that's a lot

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more interesting true than something

that well, both sides presented.

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And it's a complex issue, and it could

be six months before we hear about it.

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It's gonna be hard to get

people's attention that way.

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That's true.

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So I, I get that aspect of it, but

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I What was, I mean, to the extent

that we have judges that are sources

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to the press, what is the goal?

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I, I felt like control the narrative.

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I didn't.

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Yeah, but why so it's all about, I

didn't understand about politics.

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Bayer retired before she ran again.

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She wasn't in any danger of being

removed that I had heard of.

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And I had had to try to remove her and

remove her from cases, um, for some of

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the things that she did that I found,

I saw her doing on video and would have

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to, you know, file motions to recuse her.

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But she never seemed

to get in any trouble.

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She wasn't, there was no heat on

her and she wasn't, I don't believe,

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planning to run again at that time.

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So what would be the.

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Point, uh, you know, of, of her

wanting to leak things and set

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things up for the press, I guess?

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Well, I

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Christine: think so many, many of these

judges are just doing it for power.

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Like they just want to

be quote unquote famous.

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The reality is, you know, any good

litigators that work 40 hours a week

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that are making less than what these

judges are, they're all making more.

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Hugh: I don't know that.

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I think, I think probably, I think,

um, there was a time where, um,

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hell, uh, this makes me feel old.

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I know in 2011 was the first time

I believe that the a BA journal

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published that less than 50% of people

coming outta law school had jobs.

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And a lot of schools in the next

seven, eight years following that,

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um, close their law schools shrunk the

size because it was getting flooded.

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There was a period of time where I

could have an attorney for less than

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a paralegal, and I could do that for

years, and I was able to hire them Now.

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I always wanted to pay bonuses

and keep good people, and we

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wanted to pay really well.

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Yeah.

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But the starting non-guaranteed money was,

you know, a fraction of what judges made.

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And now I was just starting out.

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They, I couldn't afford, you

know, when it was just me

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working to hire people for more.

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So I, it was helpful to me and, uh.

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But I know for a long time,

attorneys were struggling.

229

00:10:25,515 --> 00:10:29,385

I knew a lot of people, uh, when I

lived in DC that just worked contract

230

00:10:29,385 --> 00:10:33,105

jobs on the side because, you know,

their litigation practice couldn't

231

00:10:33,105 --> 00:10:34,515

earn enough to live in that city.

232

00:10:34,515 --> 00:10:34,785

And, which is

233

00:10:34,785 --> 00:10:35,865

Christine: like a whole

different thing though.

234

00:10:35,865 --> 00:10:38,265

People that decide they, Hey,

I wanna work so I could have

235

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security and have health insurance.

236

00:10:39,945 --> 00:10:40,095

Yeah.

237

00:10:40,095 --> 00:10:43,785

But I'm talking about anybody that's

a solo practitioner that's successful.

238

00:10:44,115 --> 00:10:48,135

You know, when I was practicing, I

didn't often work 40 hours a week.

239

00:10:48,135 --> 00:10:50,745

I mean, I tried to take some time

off and travel and do all of that.

240

00:10:50,745 --> 00:10:53,775

That's what I loved about

practicing was the flexibility.

241

00:10:53,775 --> 00:10:56,895

But these judges, I guess to go

back to, why are they sources?

242

00:10:56,925 --> 00:10:59,385

They want the attention,

they want the fame.

243

00:10:59,685 --> 00:11:02,655

They want to be the quote

unquote, good guy, good girl.

244

00:11:02,655 --> 00:11:03,015

You know?

245

00:11:03,020 --> 00:11:03,175

I mean, I

246

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Hugh: guess that's the, you know, same

motivation for wanting to go on TikTok.

247

00:11:06,015 --> 00:11:10,185

I don't know, LL if there's really

a motivation to try to get reelected

248

00:11:10,185 --> 00:11:12,735

and you're gonna be able to do

it by TikTok in this political

249

00:11:12,735 --> 00:11:14,055

age, who knows, maybe that works.

250

00:11:14,235 --> 00:11:19,335

But I, I, I could never figure it

out with Judge Byer back in the day.

251

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Why?

252

00:11:21,795 --> 00:11:22,275

I don't know.

253

00:11:22,515 --> 00:11:26,355

And, and maybe it could have been my

client at the time, she just, you know, I

254

00:11:26,355 --> 00:11:28,245

mean, some people just did not like him.

255

00:11:28,245 --> 00:11:30,645

There were lots of people coming

outta the woodwork to take him down.

256

00:11:30,865 --> 00:11:31,615

It was pretty rough.

257

00:11:31,795 --> 00:11:32,060

But you shouldn't be the

258

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Christine: judge, you know?

259

00:11:32,501 --> 00:11:32,504

I mean, no.

260

00:11:33,775 --> 00:11:35,755

Hugh: Yeah, that's exactly how I felt.

261

00:11:37,135 --> 00:11:42,715

and at the time, opposing counsel was

not involved in that aspect of it.

262

00:11:42,715 --> 00:11:47,065

The opposing side changed counsel and

got someone who was very much involved

263

00:11:47,065 --> 00:11:51,295

in trying to do things behind the scenes

to put pressure on my client with source.

264

00:11:51,340 --> 00:11:51,500

Okay.

265

00:11:52,330 --> 00:11:55,600

Not at the time that that happened,

the, the first time that it happened,

266

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uh, with Judge Byer inviting them

in and having a whole gallery of

267

00:11:58,330 --> 00:12:01,060

press waiting when we walked into

the courtroom expecting that we were

268

00:12:01,060 --> 00:12:02,380

gonna have a short, private hearing

269

00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:03,340

Christine: and then told you the opposite.

270

00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,770

Well, and the thing about Joan,

and, you know, I came back in

271

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2014, so for anyone listening.

272

00:12:08,010 --> 00:12:10,350

Louisville Family Court

had a complete flip.

273

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Like it was all new

judges for the most part.

274

00:12:12,870 --> 00:12:15,390

I think one maybe stayed, but I only there

275

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Hugh: were two Haney.

276

00:12:16,410 --> 00:12:16,650

Oh yeah.

277

00:12:16,650 --> 00:12:18,975

Um, and two And Sherlock

stayed in 10 for a lot.

278

00:12:18,980 --> 00:12:19,530

For a little bit.

279

00:12:19,590 --> 00:12:19,710

Yep.

280

00:12:19,950 --> 00:12:22,380

Christine: And I was in front

of Joan one time and she started

281

00:12:22,380 --> 00:12:24,060

a DVO without me being present.

282

00:12:24,060 --> 00:12:27,540

Like I was in a different

court room and she was rude.

283

00:12:27,600 --> 00:12:31,000

She was all the things, I mean,

I was shocked about her demeanor.

284

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And then of course I ran into her, you

know, a year later and she wants me to

285

00:12:34,180 --> 00:12:37,570

use her as a mediator and, oh, are you

the nicest person that's ever lived?

286

00:12:37,930 --> 00:12:41,550

But I do think there is something

to be said about judges in general

287

00:12:41,730 --> 00:12:45,330

having favorites or treating

attorneys differently, that practice

288

00:12:45,420 --> 00:12:47,790

in front of them all the time

as opposed to outside counsel.

289

00:12:47,850 --> 00:12:48,300

Hugh: Oh, sure.

290

00:12:48,360 --> 00:12:51,360

No, I, I agree completely, but

I also know that they're human.

291

00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:51,420

Yeah.

292

00:12:51,480 --> 00:12:52,830

And that's gonna be part of it.

293

00:12:52,830 --> 00:12:58,710

And we were talking earlier about

judges in smaller towns that, and I,

294

00:12:58,710 --> 00:13:01,950

I do believe that there are judges

who want to be good civil servants

295

00:13:01,950 --> 00:13:04,890

and they go in there because they love

their community and want to do it.

296

00:13:04,890 --> 00:13:05,400

In fact,

297

00:13:07,540 --> 00:13:12,580

uh, the former judge in Oldham County,

judge Feely, he just cared about

298

00:13:12,580 --> 00:13:13,645

his community and you could tell.

299

00:13:13,645 --> 00:13:13,925

Mm-hmm.

300

00:13:14,005 --> 00:13:16,300

And he wanted to do what was

right, regardless of whether it

301

00:13:16,300 --> 00:13:18,460

was within the rules of the law.

302

00:13:18,460 --> 00:13:21,430

He, but he knew everybody

in that community and there

303

00:13:21,430 --> 00:13:22,720

was no way around that.

304

00:13:22,750 --> 00:13:22,900

Yeah.

305

00:13:22,900 --> 00:13:26,920

You couldn't have a judge from

the towns that he, you know, uh,

306

00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,460

where he worked and where he lived,

where he wouldn't know everybody.

307

00:13:30,460 --> 00:13:32,470

And that's just going to be part of it.

308

00:13:32,470 --> 00:13:34,570

I don't think you can get

that out of the system.

309

00:13:34,570 --> 00:13:38,410

And in fact, bringing, you know, making

someone from a different county be a

310

00:13:38,410 --> 00:13:40,540

judge over, you know, a specific county.

311

00:13:40,900 --> 00:13:43,300

It doesn't seem quite right either.

312

00:13:43,390 --> 00:13:47,290

I mean, when you're dealing with

jury trials, you want the juror, the

313

00:13:47,290 --> 00:13:49,480

jurors to be representative of you.

314

00:13:49,480 --> 00:13:53,020

They want, you want them to be your peers

to a certain extent, although it's not

315

00:13:53,020 --> 00:13:58,210

explicit in, in any founding documents or,

you know, and the law, you kind of want

316

00:13:58,210 --> 00:13:59,625

your judge to be part of that community,

317

00:13:59,695 --> 00:14:00,370

Christine: part of the community.

318

00:14:00,370 --> 00:14:02,440

It's like police officers, I

mean, you really want police

319

00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:04,750

policing areas in which they live.

320

00:14:04,750 --> 00:14:06,640

That's because they're

gonna be more invested.

321

00:14:07,540 --> 00:14:11,380

but I just think the pendulum maybe has

swung a little bit too far with judges.

322

00:14:11,380 --> 00:14:12,760

And now there are great judges.

323

00:14:12,760 --> 00:14:15,130

I think that I get text

messages all the time.

324

00:14:15,130 --> 00:14:17,650

I wish you would talk about the

good judges and every single

325

00:14:17,650 --> 00:14:21,370

appearance I've ever done, I've said

there are good judges out there,

326

00:14:21,370 --> 00:14:22,990

there are great judges out there.

327

00:14:23,950 --> 00:14:28,180

I don't get many stories of that, and I

do think it's because there are less of

328

00:14:28,180 --> 00:14:30,010

those good stories, at least right now.

329

00:14:30,070 --> 00:14:30,850

Hugh: Well, I think that's right.

330

00:14:30,850 --> 00:14:33,850

And I, and usually when I'm pointing

out something that a judge has gone,

331

00:14:34,060 --> 00:14:38,800

you know, had, has done poorly, and

this is, you know, I'm only a few

332

00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:40,510

months out of litigating, so I'm.

333

00:14:40,945 --> 00:14:42,985

Sort of still wearing that

hat to a certain extent.

334

00:14:43,675 --> 00:14:47,425

I'm thinking about in this instance,

the judge did the wrong thing.

335

00:14:47,425 --> 00:14:47,515

Mm-hmm.

336

00:14:47,755 --> 00:14:50,815

Didn't follow the law in this

instance, not that this is a bad judge,

337

00:14:51,085 --> 00:14:54,385

that they did something incorrect

or they didn't follow the law.

338

00:14:54,385 --> 00:14:58,345

I'm appealing because this is not

correct and I'm still looking at it

339

00:14:58,345 --> 00:15:01,495

that way where I, where I can see a

judge doing something incorrect, that

340

00:15:01,495 --> 00:15:02,785

doesn't mean they're a bad judge.

341

00:15:02,965 --> 00:15:05,755

God knows I made tons of mistakes

as a litigator, I would make

342

00:15:05,755 --> 00:15:08,275

just as many mistakes as a judge.

343

00:15:09,535 --> 00:15:13,675

I think it becomes concerning

where there is intent, there's

344

00:15:13,675 --> 00:15:16,285

clear bias, there is a pattern.

345

00:15:16,285 --> 00:15:16,405

Mm-hmm.

346

00:15:17,365 --> 00:15:23,545

there is a disregard for the rules

and, and just my way is the highway.

347

00:15:23,545 --> 00:15:26,485

I think that's different than

when judges make a mistake.

348

00:15:26,605 --> 00:15:27,205

And I agree.

349

00:15:27,270 --> 00:15:31,285

When, when you asked me about, you

know, good judges versus bad judges.

350

00:15:32,230 --> 00:15:35,950

I don't have like a super clear answer

because I can say things that every

351

00:15:35,950 --> 00:15:40,510

single, just about every single judge

has done that I've really, really

352

00:15:40,600 --> 00:15:44,680

admired and thought, man, I wish,

you know, I wish all the judges would

353

00:15:44,680 --> 00:15:47,350

be that easy to go back and correct

their errors when you point them out.

354

00:15:47,350 --> 00:15:52,030

I mean, certain ones that I have

appealed multiple times and have opinions

355

00:15:52,030 --> 00:15:56,350

against, you know that, that I way

too often point out the problems with,

356

00:15:56,380 --> 00:15:59,710

have done things throughout the cases

that I thought were absolutely great.

357

00:15:59,710 --> 00:16:00,670

And then there are others that.

358

00:16:01,315 --> 00:16:04,945

I think in general, I've always

appreciated when I walk out of

359

00:16:04,945 --> 00:16:06,145

their courtroom, win or lose.

360

00:16:06,145 --> 00:16:07,705

I appreciate the way they handled it.

361

00:16:07,765 --> 00:16:11,365

Yeah, and I think that happens

quite a bit, but you're right.

362

00:16:11,575 --> 00:16:15,355

People aren't going to go online

and fme and, and write comments

363

00:16:15,355 --> 00:16:17,905

about, you know, how great when

the judge has done things correctly

364

00:16:17,905 --> 00:16:19,285

and that's not, not terribly fair.

365

00:16:19,715 --> 00:16:22,925

It's also less interesting to the public

when people are doing things well.

366

00:16:22,985 --> 00:16:23,255

Christine: Yeah.

367

00:16:23,255 --> 00:16:27,245

I'm two years out and I will tell

you that there is a component.

368

00:16:27,245 --> 00:16:30,935

The further out you get where you're

like, whoa, we were doing this wrong.

369

00:16:30,935 --> 00:16:36,215

Like the system is operating in

a way that is perpetuating bad.

370

00:16:36,500 --> 00:16:40,070

Outcomes for families and kids

and litigants wrapped up in it.

371

00:16:40,070 --> 00:16:43,070

You know what, Dan Cannon, have you

ever read his book about the plea

372

00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:46,610

bargaining where No, that's like the

biggest problem within our system is

373

00:16:46,610 --> 00:16:48,200

our system where we have plea bargains.

374

00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:51,660

Because if you don't take the plea

it incentivizes taking the plea.

375

00:16:51,660 --> 00:16:52,530

Like 'cause if you go Sure, no, it

376

00:16:52,530 --> 00:16:53,310

Hugh: absolutely does.

377

00:16:53,310 --> 00:16:58,020

Christine: 100 And I think that was

the road to hell was paved with good

378

00:16:58,020 --> 00:16:59,880

intentions and obviously plea bargaining.

379

00:16:59,940 --> 00:17:03,330

Bargaining was meant to resolve

cases or get people to take

380

00:17:03,330 --> 00:17:06,000

accountability and get less time or

get them in treatment, yada, yada.

381

00:17:06,270 --> 00:17:09,390

But I do think that maybe it's just

gotten out of control where it's

382

00:17:09,390 --> 00:17:12,690

like a prosecutor is like, well

if you don't take this deal then

383

00:17:12,690 --> 00:17:14,579

you're gonna get 20 and that's sick.

384

00:17:14,579 --> 00:17:16,260

I mean, that's a human

being to some degree, you

385

00:17:16,260 --> 00:17:16,410

Hugh: know?

386

00:17:16,410 --> 00:17:18,089

Yeah, well I mean it's

the adversarial system.

387

00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:18,329

Yeah.

388

00:17:18,329 --> 00:17:22,859

Like, so when I think, you know, when

I came into family practice and I

389

00:17:22,859 --> 00:17:26,040

was, I was an attorney in a totally

different realm in international

390

00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:27,660

environmental law and moved.

391

00:17:28,069 --> 00:17:30,920

It's at Louisville, Kentucky

where that career doesn't exist.

392

00:17:31,370 --> 00:17:35,420

And I tried some cases in

different, um, subject matters

393

00:17:35,420 --> 00:17:39,170

and found that I liked family law

because you're arguing to a judge.

394

00:17:39,170 --> 00:17:43,070

You're arguing someone who

ultimately, at least in theory,

395

00:17:43,070 --> 00:17:44,720

knows the rules, knows the law.

396

00:17:44,720 --> 00:17:48,860

You're not arguing and having to

translate everything to a jury.

397

00:17:48,860 --> 00:17:51,500

So you can make the kind of arguments

that you're thinking about in your

398

00:17:51,500 --> 00:17:55,670

head that you would wanna put in

your pleadings and that you could,

399

00:17:56,510 --> 00:18:00,050

to a certain extent, predict, you

know, it's hard with the jury.

400

00:18:00,050 --> 00:18:03,140

Yeah, you might be in involved in

picking your jury, but you don't

401

00:18:03,140 --> 00:18:07,610

really know how they're going to act,

how they're gonna act to when they

402

00:18:07,610 --> 00:18:09,680

get together in a room with a judge.

403

00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:12,320

The more times you've been in front of

him or her, you sort of know what you're

404

00:18:12,320 --> 00:18:13,820

getting, you know what to prepare for.

405

00:18:13,820 --> 00:18:15,140

I like that aspect of it.

406

00:18:15,950 --> 00:18:20,690

One of the things that really struck me

coming into family law, at least in how

407

00:18:20,690 --> 00:18:22,490

family court works in Kentucky, which.

408

00:18:23,015 --> 00:18:27,515

It was a very progressive system, way out

in front of, most of the other states and

409

00:18:27,515 --> 00:18:33,185

putting together a specialized system to

deal with family issues is on its face,

410

00:18:33,935 --> 00:18:40,205

it seems like a much more humane, smart

way to deal with soft issues involving

411

00:18:40,205 --> 00:18:44,165

kids, involving people's personal

details and personal lives than to just

412

00:18:44,165 --> 00:18:49,505

have the typical adversarial hearing

in front of a jury where someone else

413

00:18:49,505 --> 00:18:52,025

is just deciding your fate that easily.

414

00:18:52,025 --> 00:18:53,375

And you had all of these other tools.

415

00:18:53,375 --> 00:18:56,045

You have parenting coordinators

and friends of the court and

416

00:18:56,195 --> 00:18:57,970

GS and yeah, in theory it

417

00:18:57,970 --> 00:18:58,210

Christine: looks great.

418

00:18:58,505 --> 00:18:58,925

Hugh: Yeah.

419

00:18:58,925 --> 00:19:02,945

And like you said, the road of hell

is paved good intentions, but then it

420

00:19:02,945 --> 00:19:08,345

becomes this sort of, it sort of becomes

a machine and it's a machine that.

421

00:19:08,630 --> 00:19:12,200

Develop, its develops its

own habits and biases.

422

00:19:12,230 --> 00:19:12,320

Mm-hmm.

423

00:19:12,560 --> 00:19:16,850

And it evolves outside of what

was intended by the law and the

424

00:19:16,850 --> 00:19:21,590

regulations and the lawmakers

who set the system up Yep.

425

00:19:21,620 --> 00:19:25,670

Would probably be shocked to see

how the system actually works now

426

00:19:25,670 --> 00:19:26,930

that it's evolved and it's grown.

427

00:19:26,930 --> 00:19:27,815

All of these different tentacles.

428

00:19:28,055 --> 00:19:28,295

Mm-hmm.

429

00:19:28,380 --> 00:19:32,360

And, um, yeah wish,

wish I knew the answer.

430

00:19:32,360 --> 00:19:32,435

Christine: What do think the checks are?

431

00:19:32,435 --> 00:19:34,250

Like, what are the checks

on the judiciary right now?

432

00:19:34,250 --> 00:19:34,880

Are there any

433

00:19:34,970 --> 00:19:38,595

Hugh: I don't know of any that's, I we

talked, we talked briefly about the, there

434

00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:39,950

there used to be the form you could file.

435

00:19:40,070 --> 00:19:40,130

Yeah.

436

00:19:40,130 --> 00:19:45,800

Like if a, if a court, just for the

specific issue of untimely, um, ruling.

437

00:19:45,800 --> 00:19:47,780

So if a judge is sitting on

something for a long time, we used

438

00:19:47,780 --> 00:19:48,680

to have a form we could fill out.

439

00:19:48,680 --> 00:19:51,920

It went to Frankfurt to the administrative

office of the courts and they checked in

440

00:19:52,130 --> 00:19:53,660

to see if they could move things along.

441

00:19:53,690 --> 00:19:53,870

Judge-y June 24 Content: Mm-hmm.

442

00:19:54,530 --> 00:19:59,390

Hugh: And to a certain extent,

the judges would know that if they

443

00:19:59,390 --> 00:20:02,900

took too long, someone was sort

of paying attention and watching.

444

00:20:03,140 --> 00:20:03,200

Yeah.

445

00:20:03,200 --> 00:20:05,060

That was a small check.

446

00:20:05,090 --> 00:20:07,820

You have the Supreme Court, which

regulates all of the judges.

447

00:20:08,330 --> 00:20:12,740

And in extreme cases, attorneys can

bring things before the Supreme Court

448

00:20:12,740 --> 00:20:14,330

alleging things about the judges.

449

00:20:14,330 --> 00:20:16,760

So there, there's the check,

but that's sort of a check.

450

00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:21,380

In the same way, bar complaints are

against attorneys, yet nobody wants one.

451

00:20:22,970 --> 00:20:25,940

We all try to act in a way

that that doesn't happen.

452

00:20:25,940 --> 00:20:28,910

But is it something you're thinking

about every single day or even

453

00:20:28,910 --> 00:20:30,620

every week or even every month?

454

00:20:30,770 --> 00:20:30,860

Yeah.

455

00:20:30,860 --> 00:20:31,190

No,

456

00:20:31,190 --> 00:20:31,762

Christine: no, not at all.

457

00:20:31,785 --> 00:20:32,195

It's probably

458

00:20:32,200 --> 00:20:33,920

Hugh: not, even, not, not something that.

459

00:20:34,310 --> 00:20:37,430

And it is something that's every now

and then someone will throw around

460

00:20:37,430 --> 00:20:40,070

and it's usually some meaningless

threat and it's not something you're

461

00:20:40,070 --> 00:20:41,450

really terribly worried about.

462

00:20:41,450 --> 00:20:45,140

So I can't imagine the judges are

thinking about, you know, those

463

00:20:45,140 --> 00:20:48,350

really rare circumstances where

somebody brings a motion before

464

00:20:48,350 --> 00:20:49,730

the Supreme Court about a judge.

465

00:20:49,790 --> 00:20:53,360

Christine: Yeah, and I have some regrets

honestly, for filing a complaint against

466

00:20:53,360 --> 00:20:57,710

the TikTok Judge for the selfie recording

in the sense that the fact, all, I can

467

00:20:57,710 --> 00:21:00,890

say, obviously our ethics, but there

was no public or private reprimand that

468

00:21:00,890 --> 00:21:02,390

would be on the website if that happened.

469

00:21:02,750 --> 00:21:05,930

And that's all public record, but

everything else is confidential.

470

00:21:05,930 --> 00:21:10,070

And I think that her knowing that

a complaint was filed against her,

471

00:21:10,070 --> 00:21:14,150

that no one can ever see any process

of that, and that nothing came from,

472

00:21:14,150 --> 00:21:19,400

it just emboldened her to, you know,

post a TikTok today during her docket.

473

00:21:19,520 --> 00:21:19,790

You know?

474

00:21:19,790 --> 00:21:22,820

And I think that's like,

what, what did I do?

475

00:21:23,150 --> 00:21:25,460

And now all the other judges

are like, well, I mean, there's

476

00:21:25,460 --> 00:21:26,840

not gonna be any consequence.

477

00:21:27,710 --> 00:21:28,790

Hugh: Well, I, I agree.

478

00:21:28,790 --> 00:21:30,830

I, I've had an instance where.

479

00:21:31,820 --> 00:21:36,500

I had an order signed in a case,

um, and it related to financials

480

00:21:36,860 --> 00:21:38,270

that were not before the court.

481

00:21:38,330 --> 00:21:38,510

Wait, what?

482

00:21:38,510 --> 00:21:39,440

That no one had ever heard.

483

00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,710

So this is, this is a case I had

back hell, it was probably 10.

484

00:21:42,890 --> 00:21:43,010

Okay.

485

00:21:43,010 --> 00:21:45,350

No, probably 14, 13, 14 years ago.

486

00:21:46,700 --> 00:21:48,260

I had a case, high asset case.

487

00:21:48,980 --> 00:21:50,630

we were early on in the case.

488

00:21:50,630 --> 00:21:55,610

Then in the mail I get an order that

requires my guy to pay like $10,000

489

00:21:55,610 --> 00:21:58,370

worth of financial stuff on behalf

of the other party every month.

490

00:21:58,970 --> 00:22:01,280

And no disclosures have been filed.

491

00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:04,070

So what that means is no

financial information has been

492

00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:05,810

put before the court at all.

493

00:22:05,840 --> 00:22:10,220

No one has filed any motions and it talked

about specific accounts in the order.

494

00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:13,400

So clearly the judges talked to

someone and learned something outside

495

00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:15,110

of the pleadings outside of that.

496

00:22:15,110 --> 00:22:21,410

So I went, knowing that the attorney

on the other side was close to the

497

00:22:21,410 --> 00:22:26,360

judge or had been in the past and had

other cases in front of the judge, I

498

00:22:26,360 --> 00:22:28,220

went and watched motion hour video.

499

00:22:28,910 --> 00:22:34,520

Saw an interaction up on the bench, uh,

at the bench that was recorded where the

500

00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:38,690

judge asked that attorney about the case I

was involved in and whether his attorney,

501

00:22:38,690 --> 00:22:40,370

whether his client was getting paid.

502

00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,640

And when he said no, she told

him to bring an order by and said

503

00:22:43,640 --> 00:22:47,300

she'd be there this afternoon and

shortly thereafter, I get an order.

504

00:22:47,300 --> 00:22:49,430

So these things are

happening off the record.

505

00:22:49,430 --> 00:22:51,260

I brought that up to the Supreme Court.

506

00:22:52,580 --> 00:22:54,740

I brought a motion to

remove her from the case.

507

00:22:54,980 --> 00:22:57,200

It got denied without much explanation.

508

00:22:57,200 --> 00:23:02,390

There was never any, there was never

any, that I had seen published.

509

00:23:02,420 --> 00:23:07,340

Nothing public anyway, um, where

there was any reprimand that

510

00:23:07,340 --> 00:23:08,750

anything was actually done about it.

511

00:23:09,740 --> 00:23:12,380

it was a very short

order denying my motion.

512

00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:14,690

Didn't get into the merits,

didn't talk about anything.

513

00:23:15,980 --> 00:23:16,640

the.

514

00:23:17,300 --> 00:23:19,550

Christine: Di denying your

motion to have her recused,

515

00:23:19,610 --> 00:23:23,060

Hugh: to have her recused for just

blatantly ex parte and telling the other

516

00:23:23,060 --> 00:23:27,620

side to come by and ex parte and bring an

order by, um, when no motion was filed.

517

00:23:28,700 --> 00:23:32,900

nothing was done to the judge and

the chief judge at the time in

518

00:23:32,900 --> 00:23:35,630

Louisville reallocated the case.

519

00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:36,020

Okay.

520

00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:37,910

To his courtroom, took her off the case.

521

00:23:37,910 --> 00:23:41,900

So on a local level, my client

was protected and the case got

522

00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:44,150

taken away from that judge, but

nothing was done to the judge.

523

00:23:44,150 --> 00:23:44,840

But how many times do

524

00:23:44,840 --> 00:23:45,770

Christine: you think that happened?

525

00:23:45,830 --> 00:23:48,200

Hugh: Oh, I think, oh, I,

I, it's hard to speculate.

526

00:23:48,260 --> 00:23:51,800

Uh, but the fact that it was

that blatant, I raised it, I

527

00:23:51,800 --> 00:23:52,790

took it up to the body Yeah.

528

00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:54,200

That regulates judges.

529

00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:55,220

Nothing was done.

530

00:23:55,905 --> 00:24:00,290

I, I think if judges know they can get

away with something like that mm-hmm.

531

00:24:00,530 --> 00:24:03,830

Then there is no worry whatsoever

about the regulating bodies.

532

00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:04,760

Christine: Absolutely.

533

00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:07,730

I mean, you should probably lose,

I mean, you should be suspended

534

00:24:07,730 --> 00:24:08,990

from the bench obviously, for that.

535

00:24:08,990 --> 00:24:12,050

But I would say that's a major ethical

violation just for having a law license.

536

00:24:12,545 --> 00:24:13,115

Hugh: Uh, oh.

537

00:24:13,115 --> 00:24:13,415

Yeah.

538

00:24:13,475 --> 00:24:16,475

I mean, I think if I went an

ex parte judge, I could get,

539

00:24:16,535 --> 00:24:16,745

Christine: yeah,

540

00:24:16,835 --> 00:24:18,395

Hugh: I could get suspended from practice.

541

00:24:18,425 --> 00:24:18,455

Oh.

542

00:24:18,665 --> 00:24:24,005

So a judge just inviting people to come by

and bring orders that they will sign, with

543

00:24:24,005 --> 00:24:25,715

no hearing and nothing before the court.

544

00:24:25,715 --> 00:24:27,005

I, I, I just can't imagine.

545

00:24:27,095 --> 00:24:29,405

So I know that stuff happens.

546

00:24:29,435 --> 00:24:30,125

Yeah, I've seen it.

547

00:24:30,495 --> 00:24:33,615

I certainly wouldn't allege something

like that if I didn't have video

548

00:24:33,615 --> 00:24:37,005

of it actually happening, and I

couldn't believe it when I saw it.

549

00:24:38,625 --> 00:24:42,885

I remember bringing it to the attention

of the clerks and the staff that worked in

550

00:24:42,885 --> 00:24:46,995

the family court at the time, and there's

been a whole lot of turnover since then.

551

00:24:46,995 --> 00:24:50,175

So it's not the same people,

none of them were surprised.

552

00:24:50,235 --> 00:24:52,815

They said that they'd heard

about that kind of stuff.

553

00:24:52,815 --> 00:24:53,955

They knew what was happening.

554

00:24:54,015 --> 00:24:55,725

They were very happy.

555

00:24:55,725 --> 00:24:58,155

In fact, it was funny, I filed

that with the Supreme Court.

556

00:24:58,215 --> 00:25:01,605

I went and had to ask, I'd

never done anything like that.

557

00:25:01,605 --> 00:25:05,265

I went and had to ask the clerks down

at, you know, 700 West Jefferson first

558

00:25:05,265 --> 00:25:07,155

floor and the family court how to do it.

559

00:25:08,025 --> 00:25:13,110

And there was this one clerk, She was

the head of adoptions at the time, and

560

00:25:13,110 --> 00:25:15,600

she was just always so prickly with me.

561

00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:17,040

Like there was just

something, yeah, yeah, yeah.

562

00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:20,730

It was like oil and water,

like she just acted like, and

563

00:25:20,730 --> 00:25:21,720

I was a young practitioner.

564

00:25:21,720 --> 00:25:24,180

I made a lot of mistakes or I would

have to ask too many questions, but

565

00:25:24,180 --> 00:25:25,920

she just seemed so annoyed with me.

566

00:25:27,150 --> 00:25:30,210

I brought that motion by and was

asking where I needed to file it,

567

00:25:30,210 --> 00:25:31,290

how it went through the process.

568

00:25:31,290 --> 00:25:35,160

She came around outside away from the

desk and came up and gave me a hug.

569

00:25:36,270 --> 00:25:39,600

I was filing that against this judge

because they had heard, they had so

570

00:25:39,600 --> 00:25:43,050

many people saying the same things

and all this kind of stuff about her.

571

00:25:43,260 --> 00:25:45,935

This person didn't like me, came and gave

me a hug for doing something about it.

572

00:25:45,935 --> 00:25:46,135

But

573

00:25:46,140 --> 00:25:48,990

Christine: just to extrapolate

that like further how often this

574

00:25:48,990 --> 00:25:52,590

is happening, how many like of my

followers will say something that I

575

00:25:52,590 --> 00:25:54,360

may perceive initially like is crazy.

576

00:25:54,360 --> 00:25:56,070

There's no way that happened.

577

00:25:56,220 --> 00:25:57,780

And then you hear that this happened.

578

00:25:57,785 --> 00:25:57,815

Yeah.

579

00:25:57,820 --> 00:25:59,190

And that person was on

the bench for many years.

580

00:25:59,190 --> 00:26:00,570

That person is no longer

on the bench, right?

581

00:26:00,575 --> 00:26:01,735

Hugh: No, no longer on the bench.

582

00:26:01,795 --> 00:26:02,295

Christine: That's right.

583

00:26:02,300 --> 00:26:06,990

Um, but you just sometimes some of

the stuff you can't make up and then

584

00:26:07,230 --> 00:26:12,090

that's where I get weird as far as

talking about these good judges that

585

00:26:12,090 --> 00:26:18,780

I maybe respect or admire is you hang

out with someone that does that you're

586

00:26:18,780 --> 00:26:22,500

okay with someone doing that because

you guys are all in the same club.

587

00:26:22,830 --> 00:26:23,070

Like

588

00:26:23,370 --> 00:26:28,200

Hugh: Yeah, but how, what do you,

I mean, first of all so just in

589

00:26:28,200 --> 00:26:30,900

the few short weeks that we've been

working together, I've learned so

590

00:26:30,900 --> 00:26:32,760

much that is just blown my mind.

591

00:26:33,795 --> 00:26:36,585

And I know that other people

were experiencing this all the

592

00:26:36,585 --> 00:26:38,805

time, but I didn't know about it.

593

00:26:38,805 --> 00:26:38,865

Yeah.

594

00:26:39,015 --> 00:26:41,895

When I was working hard and I was

working around the clock as a litigation

595

00:26:41,895 --> 00:26:45,435

attorney, I knew this kind of stuff

was going on, but I was worried

596

00:26:45,435 --> 00:26:46,695

about getting through my stuff.

597

00:26:47,145 --> 00:26:51,165

I fully understand that these judges,

the ones that are working hard and

598

00:26:51,165 --> 00:26:55,335

doing their good job, have way more

work than they can ever get done.

599

00:26:55,575 --> 00:27:00,945

And let's say a judge is two floors up

from someone downstairs, how often are

600

00:27:00,945 --> 00:27:05,265

they interacting other than the kind

of events that, you know, I don't even

601

00:27:05,265 --> 00:27:08,565

like going to, you know, with the bar

that I, I just, yeah, I don't, I don't

602

00:27:08,565 --> 00:27:13,485

enjoy a lot of the, the social, public

stuff as much as some, and so how, how

603

00:27:13,485 --> 00:27:17,775

would a specific judge on the third

floor in the upper divisions know that

604

00:27:17,775 --> 00:27:21,885

what the ones downstairs are doing and

be aware of it and be complicit in it?

605

00:27:21,885 --> 00:27:23,205

I, I don't know how much.

606

00:27:23,490 --> 00:27:26,010

Christine: I don't think they have

a duty to seek out that information.

607

00:27:26,010 --> 00:27:26,250

Right.

608

00:27:26,250 --> 00:27:28,770

Like, I don't think they have a duty

to go to someone's courtroom and

609

00:27:28,770 --> 00:27:30,360

watch how they conduct business.

610

00:27:30,420 --> 00:27:34,740

But I do think once something is

told to them once, twice, a hundred

611

00:27:34,740 --> 00:27:38,010

times, they have an absolute

duty to look at it differently.

612

00:27:38,070 --> 00:27:42,930

Hugh: You know, when that happened,

I went to another judge, um, who I

613

00:27:42,930 --> 00:27:46,650

had a lot of respect for, I won't

name her name here, just because I,

614

00:27:47,155 --> 00:27:47,275

Christine: I

615

00:27:47,275 --> 00:27:47,515

Judge-y June 24 Content: got you.

616

00:27:47,520 --> 00:27:47,850

I haven't,

617

00:27:47,850 --> 00:27:48,840

Hugh: I haven't talked to her about it.

618

00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,030

And then being involved in

this, I, you know, whatever.

619

00:27:51,960 --> 00:27:53,940

She was keenly interested.

620

00:27:53,940 --> 00:27:59,280

She told me how to go get the, uh, I

don't remember if the videos were, if

621

00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:01,320

the DVD system was pretty new back then.

622

00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:03,060

I mean, this was quite some time ago.

623

00:28:03,090 --> 00:28:03,150

Yeah.

624

00:28:03,150 --> 00:28:05,580

But told me exactly what to

do, what to look at, and to

625

00:28:05,580 --> 00:28:06,900

come to talk to her about it.

626

00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,820

At the time, she was the chief judge

and it changed while my case was,

627

00:28:11,820 --> 00:28:13,350

uh, up in front of the Supreme Court.

628

00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:14,790

Fantastic.

629

00:28:14,790 --> 00:28:16,500

Really interested that

this stuff was going on.

630

00:28:16,500 --> 00:28:17,670

Wanted to see what happened.

631

00:28:17,670 --> 00:28:18,030

Like I.

632

00:28:18,695 --> 00:28:20,580

I, I am not talking about

just paying lip service.

633

00:28:20,580 --> 00:28:24,240

I'm talking about really concerned that

that was going on, on the bench there.

634

00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:24,975

So I Well, that's great to hear.

635

00:28:25,050 --> 00:28:27,390

I think, and I have no idea.

636

00:28:27,390 --> 00:28:31,140

That's why I don't want to, I don't

want to raise any names, be I, I don't

637

00:28:31,140 --> 00:28:35,490

know how much she had to do with the

case moving outta that judge's division.

638

00:28:35,520 --> 00:28:35,580

Yeah.

639

00:28:35,580 --> 00:28:39,060

It would not shock me if that's what she

was doing behind the scenes to protect.

640

00:28:39,870 --> 00:28:39,960

Right.

641

00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,260

But also I know that even the chief

judge position over there doesn't

642

00:28:43,260 --> 00:28:45,150

really have power over the other judges.

643

00:28:45,150 --> 00:28:45,210

No.

644

00:28:45,210 --> 00:28:48,420

So none of the judges have, while they

may have an obligation to report certain

645

00:28:48,420 --> 00:28:52,380

things that they know specifically

about, um, they don't have any power

646

00:28:52,440 --> 00:28:54,180

themselves to do anything about it,

647

00:28:55,050 --> 00:28:57,930

Christine: which I mean is in and of

itself though, the bigger problem,

648

00:28:57,930 --> 00:29:00,570

like these are the people that are in

charge of making all the decisions.

649

00:29:00,900 --> 00:29:02,580

About our lives.

650

00:29:02,580 --> 00:29:05,250

I mean, taking away all of

your constitutionally protected

651

00:29:05,250 --> 00:29:07,320

rights to parent, to liberty.

652

00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,280

I mean, you can incarcerate people, take

their property, take their finances,

653

00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,060

take their children, and it's just,

well, it's a hard system, you know?

654

00:29:15,060 --> 00:29:18,510

Or, well, it's not their job, and

it's just, if this is the best we

655

00:29:18,510 --> 00:29:20,220

can do, we should just give up.

656

00:29:20,760 --> 00:29:21,060

Hugh: Yeah.

657

00:29:21,060 --> 00:29:25,230

I mean, who looks, I mean, we have

that at all levels of government.

658

00:29:25,230 --> 00:29:27,330

The people that are the top, that

make the biggest decisions don't

659

00:29:27,330 --> 00:29:31,260

necessarily have someone that's

micromanaging and is able to determine.

660

00:29:31,260 --> 00:29:36,060

I mean, there, there, let's say you

go to the, the state legislature.

661

00:29:36,060 --> 00:29:40,110

How much does one person, maybe on one

side of the aisle know about what the

662

00:29:40,110 --> 00:29:43,380

other people are doing behind the scenes

if they catch them, or do you know?

663

00:29:43,380 --> 00:29:44,730

They, they have evidence of something.

664

00:29:44,730 --> 00:29:46,110

Certainly they raise it, but,

665

00:29:46,350 --> 00:29:49,500

Christine: well, I mean, Mitch

McConnell was dancing to explicit

666

00:29:49,500 --> 00:29:50,970

language at a Christmas party.

667

00:29:50,970 --> 00:29:52,890

It's gonna be all over the media.

668

00:29:52,950 --> 00:29:53,520

Hugh: Yeah.

669

00:29:53,520 --> 00:29:54,750

The media's different though.

670

00:29:54,750 --> 00:29:55,410

The media.

671

00:29:57,405 --> 00:29:57,795

Okay.

672

00:29:57,795 --> 00:30:00,705

So to a certain extent, the, I

mean, the media is an important

673

00:30:00,705 --> 00:30:03,465

part of our political system

for shining lights on things.

674

00:30:03,465 --> 00:30:03,525

Yeah.

675

00:30:03,525 --> 00:30:09,585

But they also know that Mitch McConnell

dancing to, uh, a, a song that,

676

00:30:09,615 --> 00:30:13,275

that uses inappropriate language is

going to get views and people are

677

00:30:13,275 --> 00:30:18,735

gonna be interested in it a lot more

than a judge talking to one person.

678

00:30:18,735 --> 00:30:22,155

And while no one else is present on a,

I mean, it just, it isn't interesting.

679

00:30:22,155 --> 00:30:22,455

I don't, so, well,

680

00:30:22,515 --> 00:30:23,055

Christine: I don't think so.

681

00:30:23,055 --> 00:30:24,945

I think people will,

here's open, eat this up.

682

00:30:24,945 --> 00:30:27,825

I mean, I think people will be

like, you have actual proof,

683

00:30:27,825 --> 00:30:29,115

and it, it validates them.

684

00:30:29,115 --> 00:30:30,945

I think it's very similar

to police brutality.

685

00:30:31,245 --> 00:30:33,765

Like I think that that was

percolating for years and years, and

686

00:30:33,765 --> 00:30:36,765

there's this conversation about it

that's happening and then all of a

687

00:30:36,765 --> 00:30:38,505

sudden, 2020 we're all locked down.

688

00:30:38,505 --> 00:30:39,795

We got those three cases.

689

00:30:40,155 --> 00:30:40,245

Yep.

690

00:30:40,275 --> 00:30:42,615

And everyone, it validates their feelings.

691

00:30:42,615 --> 00:30:43,350

And I think it's, it does.

692

00:30:43,370 --> 00:30:45,045

And then the judges have

gotten outta control

693

00:30:45,045 --> 00:30:48,615

Hugh: by the time 2024 rule rolled around,

people have forgotten all about it.

694

00:30:49,035 --> 00:30:51,015

And I, I don't know.

695

00:30:51,065 --> 00:30:53,705

I, I'm hoping that there will be a larger.

696

00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:56,990

Longer term interest in,

in this kind of stuff.

697

00:30:56,990 --> 00:31:00,440

And in fact, I'm banking on it and I'm,

I'm making it, you know, something that

698

00:31:00,440 --> 00:31:04,250

I'm, I'm willing to, uh, to work hard on.

699

00:31:04,310 --> 00:31:09,830

But I, you know, the police brutality

thing that was so deflating to me that

700

00:31:10,970 --> 00:31:14,600

there was just this whole movement

and everyone's eyes were open to it.

701

00:31:14,600 --> 00:31:21,030

And then the, the, the term that was

used for, labeling yourself as aware

702

00:31:21,030 --> 00:31:24,540

that the system is broken, becomes a

bad word, and no one wants to associate

703

00:31:24,540 --> 00:31:28,950

it with messaging with it, it's like,

wow, this, it can turn that quickly.

704

00:31:28,950 --> 00:31:32,550

And programs that are meant to avoid

that kind of stuff are now taboo

705

00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,710

and, uh, illegal in some places.

706

00:31:34,710 --> 00:31:35,010

So.

707

00:31:35,385 --> 00:31:37,215

Christine: That's the money

machine, the political machine.

708

00:31:37,215 --> 00:31:40,785

That's why go back to your beginning

of this podcast or this conversation.

709

00:31:40,785 --> 00:31:43,665

Why did Joan wanna talk and

be a source for the media?

710

00:31:43,695 --> 00:31:46,005

'cause if you're a source for

the media, you can control the

711

00:31:46,005 --> 00:31:48,045

narrative in all instances.

712

00:31:48,045 --> 00:31:48,105

Hugh: Yeah.

713

00:31:48,105 --> 00:31:50,745

And if something happens in the

future, they're gonna go to you.

714

00:31:51,195 --> 00:31:51,795

Well, it's true.

715

00:31:51,795 --> 00:31:57,105

But I mean, I, I will say that I

worked on her camp, the campaign

716

00:31:57,285 --> 00:32:01,245

that she won to be on that term.

717

00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:05,115

I, I don't know how many, how

many, uh, terms she served.

718

00:32:05,115 --> 00:32:07,425

'cause she was on the bench when I

started practicing here in Louisville.

719

00:32:07,425 --> 00:32:09,200

Well, one of the things I

liked is she was very shrewd.

720

00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,200

She had no problem saying

what her opinions were at all.

721

00:32:12,200 --> 00:32:15,080

I, it's one of the things I respected

about her when I first, uh, started,

722

00:32:15,440 --> 00:32:20,780

when I got to know her off the bench,

was that she's just very plain spoken.

723

00:32:20,780 --> 00:32:23,210

And I, you know, it was just

always, uh, did you ever ask

724

00:32:23,210 --> 00:32:24,230

her about the ex parte thing?

725

00:32:24,375 --> 00:32:25,045

Personally?

726

00:32:25,050 --> 00:32:25,490

Personally?

727

00:32:25,550 --> 00:32:25,820

Yeah.

728

00:32:25,880 --> 00:32:33,500

No, 'cause I, I, I, uh, chose,

I, I was angry enough about it,

729

00:32:33,950 --> 00:32:36,830

um, and basically giving up my.

730

00:32:37,685 --> 00:32:41,045

Practice in one out of 10 divisions

here in the county where I work.

731

00:32:41,190 --> 00:32:41,825

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

732

00:32:42,005 --> 00:32:46,505

That I, once I was able to get past that,

I just didn't, I didn't wanna revisit it.

733

00:32:46,505 --> 00:32:53,135

And I've just avoided interactions, um,

because it's just, uh, it's, it's still,

734

00:32:53,135 --> 00:32:56,645

it's still hard for me to even think

about having a conversation about it.

735

00:32:56,645 --> 00:32:59,345

I would be, I would be so angry

because there isn't, there isn't

736

00:32:59,345 --> 00:33:00,425

anything that could be said.

737

00:33:00,605 --> 00:33:02,135

There's nothing that could

change my mind about it.

738

00:33:02,135 --> 00:33:04,055

It was blatant, just

blatant, this is what it is.

739

00:33:04,055 --> 00:33:04,805

It's black and white.

740

00:33:04,805 --> 00:33:05,465

You did this.

741

00:33:05,465 --> 00:33:06,965

There's not gray area.

742

00:33:06,965 --> 00:33:09,185

There's not, oh, it's because

of this, or there's exigent

743

00:33:09,185 --> 00:33:10,535

circumstances, none of that.

744

00:33:10,595 --> 00:33:11,525

There's no emergencies.

745

00:33:11,525 --> 00:33:12,035

There was nothing.

746

00:33:12,035 --> 00:33:16,025

You just, you just did a favor for

somebody that you liked and, and

747

00:33:16,025 --> 00:33:18,395

Christine: then you've been on

her campaign, so it's not like

748

00:33:18,395 --> 00:33:19,865

you've even got any loyalty there.

749

00:33:19,895 --> 00:33:20,585

You know what I mean?

750

00:33:20,585 --> 00:33:24,185

But yeah, I've reached out to the person

that ex parte, um, that was an attorney

751

00:33:24,185 --> 00:33:26,105

at the time, and that is, uh, now a judge.

752

00:33:26,105 --> 00:33:27,995

Hugh: And I was thinking when

she, when that happened on

753

00:33:27,995 --> 00:33:30,275

that case, I thought, oh, just,

754

00:33:30,575 --> 00:33:30,935

Christine: yeah.

755

00:33:31,025 --> 00:33:31,835

Hugh: Wow.

756

00:33:32,135 --> 00:33:35,165

Christine: Well, and I think that

they've gotten so quote unquote powerful.

757

00:33:35,165 --> 00:33:39,425

And by powerful I mean small fish

in a big pond or what's the saying?

758

00:33:39,425 --> 00:33:40,685

Is it big fish in a small pond?

759

00:33:40,685 --> 00:33:41,795

Yeah, big fish in a small pond.

760

00:33:41,825 --> 00:33:42,155

Pond.

761

00:33:42,575 --> 00:33:47,465

But a lot of people, a lot of my followers

think that you get loyalty that their

762

00:33:47,465 --> 00:33:49,295

favorites attorneys and stuff like that.

763

00:33:49,295 --> 00:33:51,725

And there may be, but generally

speaking, they're just yelling

764

00:33:51,725 --> 00:33:52,835

at all of us at this point.

765

00:33:52,925 --> 00:33:55,265

Hugh: Well, the funny thing is there,

there's been some divisions I've walked

766

00:33:55,265 --> 00:34:01,205

in and I've had, this is especially true

on the court appointed dockets, right?

767

00:34:01,205 --> 00:34:04,145

So if you're going in on dependency,

neglect and abuse or paternity or

768

00:34:04,145 --> 00:34:09,245

something like that, and the judge

has the same attorneys that represent

769

00:34:09,245 --> 00:34:12,065

the kids, the parents, and they're in

front of the judge all the time, and

770

00:34:12,065 --> 00:34:15,665

you come in, um, especially on like a

dependency, neglect, and abuse docket.

771

00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:19,550

Most cases, the great, great, great

majority of cases don't have private

772

00:34:19,550 --> 00:34:20,900

attorneys from outside of that system.

773

00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:25,670

They're either pro se or they're a party

that automatically gets an attorney

774

00:34:25,670 --> 00:34:28,969

appointed and they're from that group that

always practices in front of that judge.

775

00:34:29,659 --> 00:34:33,770

So I would step in, someone would have

the money to retain private counsel to

776

00:34:33,770 --> 00:34:36,440

come in and fight 'cause things weren't

going the way they were supposed to go, or

777

00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:40,070

it was taking five times longer than the

statute allowed or something like that.

778

00:34:40,070 --> 00:34:43,790

So I, would get involved in those

cases from time to time and I

779

00:34:43,790 --> 00:34:46,730

would come into these divisions

and someone would pull me aside.

780

00:34:46,730 --> 00:34:50,960

People that I was friendly with,

that also worked on that docket

781

00:34:50,960 --> 00:34:52,219

that would tell me, watch out.

782

00:34:52,460 --> 00:34:54,290

I saw that you were bringing this motion.

783

00:34:54,290 --> 00:34:55,550

We've all been talking about it.

784

00:34:55,550 --> 00:34:56,840

We saw it come through on this docket.

785

00:34:57,470 --> 00:35:01,340

You know, the judge really loves this

person is gonna do whatever she says.

786

00:35:01,610 --> 00:35:02,420

Across the board.

787

00:35:02,420 --> 00:35:05,810

So you may want to think about asking

for it in a different way or trying

788

00:35:05,810 --> 00:35:08,660

to present it a different way because

you're always gonna lose this because

789

00:35:08,660 --> 00:35:14,180

of this person has favor with this judge

and just gets relied on all the time.

790

00:35:14,540 --> 00:35:18,260

And whatever she says will, will

go no matter how outlandish it is.

791

00:35:18,890 --> 00:35:25,010

And sure enough, it seemed to be, you

know, the next year or so, yeah, I, I

792

00:35:25,010 --> 00:35:26,630

would see things like that happen and then

793

00:35:28,700 --> 00:35:32,630

all of a sudden I would be told that,

that there was a falling out and that

794

00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,790

the, the opposite would be happening.

795

00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:38,450

And that, that, then I started

noticing them fighting like an old

796

00:35:38,450 --> 00:35:39,710

married couple up at the bench.

797

00:35:39,710 --> 00:35:42,290

And I'm just thinking, I know

that kind of stuff does happen.

798

00:35:42,290 --> 00:35:42,350

Yeah.

799

00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:46,490

but from a, you know, from a practitioner

point of view, knowing that I know

800

00:35:46,490 --> 00:35:47,630

how to prepare my client Yeah.

801

00:35:47,660 --> 00:35:50,810

So there's certain, I I kind of,

you know, it goes back to that thing

802

00:35:50,810 --> 00:35:53,030

about knowing what you're getting

instead of having these things

803

00:35:53,030 --> 00:35:54,890

decided by a, an unpredictable jury,

804

00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:58,490

Christine: but like, so dependency,

neglection, abuse, the best way I

805

00:35:58,490 --> 00:36:02,000

would describe it for anybody that's

curious is like, it's CPS cases, right?

806

00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:02,060

Yeah.

807

00:36:02,060 --> 00:36:05,300

So it's like if the Cabinet for Health

and Family Services is involved, there's

808

00:36:05,300 --> 00:36:08,180

an allegation they're gonna offer

services, they're gonna remove kids.

809

00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:09,080

That's it.

810

00:36:09,080 --> 00:36:12,980

And so most of the, like the way

our statutes work is everybody

811

00:36:12,980 --> 00:36:15,560

gets appointed an attorney and the

taxpayers pay and it's flat rate.

812

00:36:16,130 --> 00:36:16,490

Okay.

813

00:36:16,490 --> 00:36:19,820

Very different than what you see when

we're talking about some of these court

814

00:36:19,820 --> 00:36:21,380

appointed people billing out early.

815

00:36:21,830 --> 00:36:25,550

But rarely, if ever do private

attorneys go on those dockets.

816

00:36:25,580 --> 00:36:25,670

Mm-hmm.

817

00:36:25,910 --> 00:36:32,660

I mean, I'm in, in my career, in Jefferson

County, I would say maybe five, maybe 10.

818

00:36:32,660 --> 00:36:36,920

I, you know, I, and there could be

more, but just not my, not my jam.

819

00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:38,330

I didn't wanna sit around all day.

820

00:36:38,660 --> 00:36:39,860

Um, you didn't wanna get homecooked.

821

00:36:39,950 --> 00:36:41,060

And it's also just depressing.

822

00:36:41,795 --> 00:36:42,275

Hugh: All three.

823

00:36:42,275 --> 00:36:42,575

Very accurate.

824

00:36:42,575 --> 00:36:42,905

Yeah.

825

00:36:43,445 --> 00:36:46,355

Christine: So like I, this is

how I would describe dependency

826

00:36:46,355 --> 00:36:47,105

neglection abuse court.

827

00:36:47,105 --> 00:36:49,205

You've got babies addicted to drugs.

828

00:36:50,375 --> 00:36:55,415

you've got caregivers, you know,

physically abusing children.

829

00:36:55,745 --> 00:37:00,425

You have children overdosing after

getting access to drugs you have,

830

00:37:00,455 --> 00:37:02,045

Hugh: or being addicted upon birth.

831

00:37:02,075 --> 00:37:02,495

Christine: Yeah.

832

00:37:02,555 --> 00:37:08,675

Uh, and you have, you know, a baby

that you, they can't find placement for

833

00:37:08,675 --> 00:37:10,475

because a family member can't take them.

834

00:37:10,805 --> 00:37:13,745

I mean, it is just the worst of the worst.

835

00:37:13,895 --> 00:37:16,625

Debbie Downer, you know, beyond the pale.

836

00:37:17,705 --> 00:37:23,075

but when you talk about how somebody gets

favor in that court, you know, these are

837

00:37:23,585 --> 00:37:30,395

significant constitutionally protected

rights that are being messed with because

838

00:37:30,395 --> 00:37:35,615

maybe one social worker, or maybe one

GAL is in, is a favorite that day, right?

839

00:37:35,735 --> 00:37:36,370

Hugh: No, absolutely.

840

00:37:36,575 --> 00:37:40,535

So, uh, the, there was a

fundamental right to parent your.

841

00:37:40,955 --> 00:37:41,465

Child, I

842

00:37:41,465 --> 00:37:41,645

Judge-y June 24 Content: could.

843

00:37:41,885 --> 00:37:49,535

Hugh: Um, and I know that our legislators

in Kentucky realized that were prob

844

00:37:49,535 --> 00:37:53,705

there were problems on these dockets

because they changed the law to protect

845

00:37:54,215 --> 00:37:58,765

to a certain extent the rights of

foster parents to become parties to

846

00:37:58,765 --> 00:38:01,975

a case and have a say in the case

once they reached an adoption stage.

847

00:38:02,215 --> 00:38:07,585

Whereas historically, the foster

parents still in the DNA, stage of

848

00:38:07,585 --> 00:38:14,995

the case, prior to there being an

adjudication, and then, a determination

849

00:38:14,995 --> 00:38:16,285

that it's moving toward adoption.

850

00:38:17,185 --> 00:38:18,715

They still don't have any say in anything.

851

00:38:18,745 --> 00:38:20,395

They're the ones doing

all the heavy lifting.

852

00:38:20,395 --> 00:38:21,505

They're the ones raising the kid.

853

00:38:21,505 --> 00:38:23,005

They're the ones bonded with the child.

854

00:38:23,005 --> 00:38:25,495

They're the ones going to

bat taking time off work.

855

00:38:25,855 --> 00:38:26,965

Showing up for every court appearance.

856

00:38:27,205 --> 00:38:30,625

They have no say, they don't get,

they don't, they're not represented.

857

00:38:30,625 --> 00:38:33,805

They don't have, any rights in the cases.

858

00:38:36,010 --> 00:38:42,100

That change in the law, indicates

that somebody knew that the system

859

00:38:42,100 --> 00:38:43,300

wasn't working all that well.

860

00:38:43,300 --> 00:38:45,160

But I don't, in my opinion,

it didn't go far enough.

861

00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:45,880

Because

862

00:38:48,130 --> 00:38:54,700

what I see is a court and then this select

set of attorneys that represent every

863

00:38:54,730 --> 00:38:57,250

parent and or child in that division.

864

00:38:57,250 --> 00:39:00,340

At least the accused

ones not the caregivers.

865

00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:02,681

they're not entitled to the

representation distinction.

866

00:39:02,681 --> 00:39:02,682

Yeah.

867

00:39:02,865 --> 00:39:04,990

The, foster parents

don't get representation.

868

00:39:04,990 --> 00:39:08,170

The people that are accused, and there are

important constitutional reasons for that.

869

00:39:08,530 --> 00:39:14,890

But when the judge is reliant on this same

group of attorneys over and over again,

870

00:39:15,070 --> 00:39:23,230

and they just, and they're socializing

With them, and I hear from attorneys

871

00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,460

that are on these dockets, talk about

the conversations they've had about my

872

00:39:27,460 --> 00:39:31,990

cases with the judge, and have told me

to my face that, oh yeah, when I talk to

873

00:39:31,990 --> 00:39:33,280

the judge about this and I'm thinking.

874

00:39:33,955 --> 00:39:35,665

You're not allowed to do that.

875

00:39:35,665 --> 00:39:37,255

But I know what's happening all the time.

876

00:39:37,255 --> 00:39:38,950

And some of these attorneys

just walk in the back.

877

00:39:39,390 --> 00:39:42,565

And they, enter the courtroom

every single time from the judge's

878

00:39:42,565 --> 00:39:45,265

office, from chambers as if

they're part of the judicial staff.

879

00:39:45,265 --> 00:39:50,605

And it's just, they become that much

of the system that I think it, I, when

880

00:39:50,605 --> 00:39:53,515

I come into those cases as a private

attorney, I'm representing someone that

881

00:39:53,515 --> 00:39:55,315

doesn't have an court appointed attorney.

882

00:39:55,585 --> 00:40:00,325

It's rare that anyone that gets a

court appointed attorney is going in.

883

00:40:00,325 --> 00:40:03,565

In those cases where I know that there

are plenty of people that could get a

884

00:40:03,565 --> 00:40:07,735

public defender, criminal cases, maybe

they will Change and hire an attorney.

885

00:40:07,735 --> 00:40:10,105

That doesn't really happen in dependency,

neglect, and abuse very often.

886

00:40:10,105 --> 00:40:14,185

So when I'm coming in, I was always coming

in for someone that doesn't have a right

887

00:40:14,185 --> 00:40:15,505

to a court apparent appointed attorney.

888

00:40:15,505 --> 00:40:19,855

So they're usually the people doing

the hard work, the friend, the

889

00:40:19,855 --> 00:40:23,905

family member, the foster parent who

has stepped up to take on a child.

890

00:40:23,905 --> 00:40:28,105

Now, I, usually couldn't represent the

foster parents 'cause they're not parties.

891

00:40:29,545 --> 00:40:31,225

Until it got to the adoption stage.

892

00:40:31,225 --> 00:40:36,235

But representing fictive kin cases,

representing grandma who is the one

893

00:40:36,235 --> 00:40:40,885

that's raised the child since it came home

addicted to cocaine from the hospital.

894

00:40:41,365 --> 00:40:46,765

Those are the people that would come in

and represent and it was so clear so many

895

00:40:47,005 --> 00:40:48,985

times I would be there waiting around.

896

00:40:48,985 --> 00:40:50,335

As you said, there's always waiting.

897

00:40:50,335 --> 00:40:52,675

You show up, it's a cat hours cattle call.

898

00:40:53,605 --> 00:40:57,145

They, discuss the cases in

cha in, in, conference rooms.

899

00:40:57,445 --> 00:41:01,885

Then they slowly, once the case has

been decided on or can't be decided

900

00:41:01,885 --> 00:41:04,045

on, has to have a hearing, it goes in

front of the judge and it just sits

901

00:41:04,045 --> 00:41:07,255

in a pile and they get called one

at a times the number of times where

902

00:41:07,255 --> 00:41:08,815

things have been called and discussed.

903

00:41:08,965 --> 00:41:13,975

And no one comes to get me because

they just, the group talks about 'em.

904

00:41:14,035 --> 00:41:15,265

Oh yeah, I don't get invited in there.

905

00:41:15,265 --> 00:41:16,435

I'm representing a party.

906

00:41:16,435 --> 00:41:18,625

I have a right to every single discussion.

907

00:41:18,895 --> 00:41:21,925

They go in, they put it in front of the

judge, they have the judge sign something.

908

00:41:22,555 --> 00:41:26,005

And my client doesn't even get to

know that the discussion's taking

909

00:41:26,005 --> 00:41:27,685

place and you're excluded from it.

910

00:41:27,865 --> 00:41:29,005

Christine: Okay, so this

is Jefferson County.

911

00:41:29,005 --> 00:41:29,995

This is a Jefferson County thing.

912

00:41:30,535 --> 00:41:32,275

Hugh: it's not just Jefferson County.

913

00:41:33,025 --> 00:41:35,965

Christine: it's a Jefferson

County thing in the sense that

914

00:41:36,235 --> 00:41:38,125

there is this closed courtroom.

915

00:41:38,215 --> 00:41:38,455

Okay.

916

00:41:38,455 --> 00:41:41,425

Everywhere I, when, like when I

practiced in Eastern Kentucky, domestic

917

00:41:41,425 --> 00:41:44,815

violence, like everyone comes into the

courtroom and they just call the cases.

918

00:41:44,845 --> 00:41:44,935

Yeah.

919

00:41:45,025 --> 00:41:45,415

Hugh: That's different.

920

00:41:45,415 --> 00:41:46,375

Domestic violence is different.

921

00:41:46,375 --> 00:41:47,365

That's not a sealed docket.

922

00:41:47,370 --> 00:41:47,590

True.

923

00:41:47,590 --> 00:41:48,950

It's treated as No, no, no.

924

00:41:48,955 --> 00:41:50,065

True confidential here.

925

00:41:50,065 --> 00:41:50,305

But

926

00:41:50,635 --> 00:41:53,215

Christine: so I used to sit in on all

of the dependency neglection, abuse

927

00:41:53,215 --> 00:41:54,415

dockets when I was public defender.

928

00:41:54,445 --> 00:41:56,185

'cause I was a juvenile public defender.

929

00:41:56,185 --> 00:41:58,135

They were on, they were J cases,

they were on the same day.

930

00:41:58,135 --> 00:41:58,945

We didn't have a family court.

931

00:41:58,945 --> 00:41:59,215

I see.

932

00:41:59,605 --> 00:42:00,175

So.

933

00:42:00,790 --> 00:42:01,840

You would see.

934

00:42:01,930 --> 00:42:03,880

You never had any of that.

935

00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:07,240

Like they would call the cases

and it would be conference

936

00:42:07,240 --> 00:42:08,440

during a conference time.

937

00:42:08,740 --> 00:42:11,830

There wasn't that level of

ex parte that I ever saw.

938

00:42:11,860 --> 00:42:15,520

Like even with private attorneys that

would come in, uh, where Louisville

939

00:42:15,520 --> 00:42:17,260

is very different in that regard.

940

00:42:17,260 --> 00:42:19,720

Louisville is very much like

this is a closed circuit.

941

00:42:19,930 --> 00:42:22,510

We're not letting anybody

else in, in, in my experience,

942

00:42:22,875 --> 00:42:27,730

Hugh: I, I can think of two other counties

where I've seen just the blatant ex

943

00:42:27,730 --> 00:42:36,370

parte stuff, bullet, like where the,

maybe, maybe one, um, where the GAL on,

944

00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:40,360

you know, three quarters of the cases

that I ever practice on would be, you

945

00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,960

know, on breaks would be in the back,

hanging out with the judicial staff now.

946

00:42:45,505 --> 00:42:47,275

Do I know that they're back

there talking about the case?

947

00:42:47,275 --> 00:42:47,995

No, I don't.

948

00:42:48,055 --> 00:42:53,035

Do I think that my client could ever

in a million years think the judge is,

949

00:42:53,065 --> 00:42:55,555

um, fair is is objective on that case?

950

00:42:55,555 --> 00:42:55,645

Mm-hmm.

951

00:42:55,885 --> 00:42:59,275

And isn't speaking to an attorney who

represents a party in that case when they

952

00:42:59,275 --> 00:43:01,285

both walk out together after each break?

953

00:43:01,645 --> 00:43:06,230

No, it is just the, even just

the appearance is, was so bad.

954

00:43:06,230 --> 00:43:08,935

So they're doing that on the

record, like your client saw it?

955

00:43:09,385 --> 00:43:09,865

Oh, sure.

956

00:43:09,865 --> 00:43:12,205

Well, it's not on the record 'cause we

haven't gone back on the record yet.

957

00:43:12,235 --> 00:43:12,865

Yeah, you haven't pushed your buddy.

958

00:43:12,865 --> 00:43:13,675

We're taking a break.

959

00:43:13,915 --> 00:43:14,935

Everyone walks out.

960

00:43:15,205 --> 00:43:18,235

Some people walk to the back

and I can think of, I know two

961

00:43:18,235 --> 00:43:20,965

counties off the top of my head

where it was just regular practice.

962

00:43:20,965 --> 00:43:25,135

A GS had maybe like a desk back

there with the staff attorney.

963

00:43:25,165 --> 00:43:25,225

Yeah.

964

00:43:25,615 --> 00:43:30,055

And they, it's almost like their judicial

staff and they're an attorney representing

965

00:43:30,235 --> 00:43:33,925

the children regulated by the same rules.

966

00:43:33,925 --> 00:43:36,505

And the judge has to treat them like

every other attorney on the case.

967

00:43:36,775 --> 00:43:39,505

But I know that, that, you know, I,

I know that it's happening and I.

968

00:43:40,270 --> 00:43:41,860

Frankly, it gets talked about enough.

969

00:43:41,860 --> 00:43:44,860

I've had enough conversations with people

that have acted in that role, that talk

970

00:43:44,860 --> 00:43:46,660

about how often they talk with the judge.

971

00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:49,360

Christine: Well, that's another thing

that's concerning, is how often these,

972

00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:55,300

uh, third parties, um, jails, FOCs will

say like, I mean, I had one blatantly

973

00:43:55,300 --> 00:44:00,370

tell me, there's no way the judge is

gonna believe that person over me.

974

00:44:00,970 --> 00:44:03,790

And I thought that is an

insane thing to say out loud.

975

00:44:03,940 --> 00:44:04,540

Hugh: Do you know what I mean?

976

00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:04,990

Oh, yeah.

977

00:44:04,990 --> 00:44:07,630

But I mean, I, I can think of

a, a small handful of people,

978

00:44:07,630 --> 00:44:09,760

one really in particular where

I know that that's the case.

979

00:44:09,760 --> 00:44:14,140

The judge is just, I mean, it, the

same person that, uh, judge Gatewood in

980

00:44:14,140 --> 00:44:18,070

the ad case ask, you know, basically,

you know, what are we doing here?

981

00:44:18,070 --> 00:44:19,690

And they, you hear that same language.

982

00:44:19,690 --> 00:44:20,740

So what are we doing here?

983

00:44:20,740 --> 00:44:22,720

And then this one person that's

been appointed by the judge

984

00:44:22,720 --> 00:44:23,920

says what we're doing here.

985

00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:24,852

Christine: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

986

00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,420

I've seen that on the record, but

I've never seen, I, it's bizarre

987

00:44:28,420 --> 00:44:30,040

to say it like behind the scenes

988

00:44:30,970 --> 00:44:31,240

Hugh: uhoh.

989

00:44:31,490 --> 00:44:38,540

Uh, but I, I couldn't talk about cases and

without bringing up an anecdote about some

990

00:44:38,540 --> 00:44:40,070

judges had done some something horrible.

991

00:44:40,070 --> 00:44:44,660

I was carrying a huge grudge because of

I saw how it affected my clients Yeah.

992

00:44:44,660 --> 00:44:45,680

And their children.

993

00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,560

And the children they were taking

care of and, and how it did.

994

00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,900

And I just, it consumed me.

995

00:44:51,025 --> 00:44:52,400

It, it was just terrible.

996

00:44:52,460 --> 00:44:53,540

Christine: Doesn't it bother you though?

997

00:44:53,540 --> 00:44:57,200

Like, how many people are lawyers

that aren't willing to speak up?

998

00:44:57,260 --> 00:44:57,560

Oh,

999

00:44:58,145 --> 00:44:59,210

Hugh: oh, that kills me.

1000

00:44:59,210 --> 00:45:03,470

I, there are attorneys that I have great

respect for their intellectual ability,

1001

00:45:03,470 --> 00:45:04,970

their ability to practice, who have.

1002

00:45:05,525 --> 00:45:08,345

Come to me and said, oh, you

know, I, I can't believe, I'm

1003

00:45:08,345 --> 00:45:09,575

glad you filed that motion.

1004

00:45:09,575 --> 00:45:12,095

I never could have would've

taken a judge on like that.

1005

00:45:12,095 --> 00:45:14,705

'cause how, how would it affect,

you know, the next time you went

1006

00:45:14,705 --> 00:45:15,875

in front of him and all of this.

1007

00:45:15,875 --> 00:45:20,045

And I, and my response is always

like, I represent my client.

1008

00:45:20,375 --> 00:45:20,525

Yeah.

1009

00:45:20,585 --> 00:45:24,485

I can't, I can't not fight for my

client when a judge does something

1010

00:45:24,485 --> 00:45:30,215

blatantly wrong and it costs my client

custody or hundreds of thousands of

1011

00:45:30,215 --> 00:45:33,065

dollars and it's, it's vindictive.

1012

00:45:33,815 --> 00:45:37,385

I am not allowed to say, well, the judge

will get mad at me if I do something

1013

00:45:37,385 --> 00:45:40,775

about it and then sell my client out

by not speaking up and doing something.

1014

00:45:40,775 --> 00:45:43,420

But I think that is not

practicing your case.

1015

00:45:43,595 --> 00:45:45,785

And you're, you're violating

your duty as an attorney.

1016

00:45:46,085 --> 00:45:46,895

Christine: A hundred percent.

1017

00:45:46,895 --> 00:45:48,785

Like, it's like, did you

just hear yourself out loud?

1018

00:45:48,785 --> 00:45:50,885

You said I wouldn't

advocate for my client.

1019

00:45:50,975 --> 00:45:52,385

Yeah, because the judge is.

1020

00:45:52,760 --> 00:45:53,870

Would get mad at me.

1021

00:45:53,875 --> 00:45:54,755

Hugh: That's exactly right.

1022

00:45:54,945 --> 00:45:55,760

Well, and that's what happened.

1023

00:45:55,760 --> 00:45:56,540

Me, I wouldn't take on a judge.

1024

00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:56,870

Christine: Yeah.

1025

00:45:56,870 --> 00:45:59,900

I mean, that is 100% what

happened in my situation.

1026

00:45:59,930 --> 00:46:05,360

And I still sometimes am just like shocked

at the whole, it was just so obvious, you

1027

00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,050

know, that any attorney could realize that

situation could have happened to them,

1028

00:46:09,950 --> 00:46:10,071

Hugh: you know?

1029

00:46:10,076 --> 00:46:15,980

And, and I mean, I I will say

it was a much bigger deal the

1030

00:46:15,980 --> 00:46:17,330

first time I had to do it.

1031

00:46:17,425 --> 00:46:17,715

Yeah.

1032

00:46:17,715 --> 00:46:18,396

Because, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

1033

00:46:18,410 --> 00:46:23,030

I mean, when I was a young attorney and I

mean, my income to my family was critical.

1034

00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:23,360

Yeah.

1035

00:46:23,360 --> 00:46:26,600

And there was definitely going

to be a change in what cases I

1036

00:46:26,600 --> 00:46:27,680

could take and what I couldn't.

1037

00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:31,160

And it was before I had a practice

with, you know, 20 ish attorneys that

1038

00:46:31,250 --> 00:46:35,360

I could shuffle cases around and I

could just not practice in front of

1039

00:46:35,360 --> 00:46:38,090

a judge for a while and send someone

else in there, couldn't do that.

1040

00:46:38,090 --> 00:46:41,390

It was like, you're not gonna make

any money on this percentage of cases.

1041

00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:47,540

I, I mean, I've, it is not an easy

thing to have to do, but it is also.

1042

00:46:48,245 --> 00:46:50,015

Very clear what is right and wrong.

1043

00:46:50,135 --> 00:46:50,975

Murder is very clear.

1044

00:46:50,975 --> 00:46:54,485

What I have to do in my duty to

my client doesn't mean it's easy.

1045

00:46:54,725 --> 00:46:54,875

Christine: Yeah.

1046

00:46:54,875 --> 00:46:57,575

I mean, I don't have children

obviously, and so I can't imagine

1047

00:46:57,575 --> 00:47:02,825

I have the flexibility, um,

to not have that dependency.

1048

00:47:02,825 --> 00:47:03,425

You know what I mean?

1049

00:47:03,425 --> 00:47:06,965

So when I was done with it, I was just

like, I'm not gonna participate in this.

1050

00:47:06,965 --> 00:47:10,295

And I, you know, it's hard to think

about from that standpoint, but I've

1051

00:47:10,295 --> 00:47:13,295

always been of the mentality there

are more of us than there are them.

1052

00:47:13,340 --> 00:47:15,155

I, I don't understand the fear

1053

00:47:15,425 --> 00:47:15,545

Judge-y June 24 Content: Oh yeah.

1054

00:47:15,665 --> 00:47:16,805

Christine: Of authority.

1055

00:47:16,835 --> 00:47:20,345

Like these family court judges,

especially in Louisville, like, or

1056

00:47:20,345 --> 00:47:21,995

even some of the judges in Louisville.

1057

00:47:23,075 --> 00:47:24,275

I'm trying to think of

the best way to say this.

1058

00:47:24,275 --> 00:47:26,285

I just wasn't raised to

be scared of lazy people.

1059

00:47:27,605 --> 00:47:30,695

I mean, you, you should be scared

of some judges in Eastern Kentucky.

1060

00:47:30,755 --> 00:47:31,085

Okay.

1061

00:47:31,205 --> 00:47:32,255

I mean, they're hard workers.

1062

00:47:32,285 --> 00:47:33,065

They're connected.

1063

00:47:33,335 --> 00:47:35,465

There are systems there, there are things.

1064

00:47:35,735 --> 00:47:38,135

But are you like scared?

1065

00:47:38,435 --> 00:47:40,865

Uh, am I scared of any Louisville judge?

1066

00:47:40,865 --> 00:47:41,255

No.

1067

00:47:41,885 --> 00:47:42,125

No.

1068

00:47:43,620 --> 00:47:43,910

Hugh: Like

1069

00:47:43,915 --> 00:47:45,635

Christine: intellectually, physically,

1070

00:47:45,695 --> 00:47:46,925

Hugh: I wasn't worried about that.

1071

00:47:46,925 --> 00:47:52,325

I was worried and given how quickly

when I did it, how many people came

1072

00:47:52,325 --> 00:47:55,355

out and said that they, you know, they

were glad I spoke out and they, the

1073

00:47:55,355 --> 00:47:58,745

stories I heard, um, that people that

had been through the same thing mm-hmm.

1074

00:47:59,045 --> 00:48:02,075

Even when I was, you know, much

younger attorney and I was just,

1075

00:48:02,105 --> 00:48:04,925

just fighting for the biggest

client at the time I had ever had.

1076

00:48:05,255 --> 00:48:05,555

Judge-y June 24 Content: Yeah.

1077

00:48:05,615 --> 00:48:09,875

Hugh: I didn't realize, you know, that

this was going on and so often, and I

1078

00:48:09,875 --> 00:48:12,155

think a lot of it isn't just out of fear.

1079

00:48:12,155 --> 00:48:13,265

I think there's just complacency.

1080

00:48:13,265 --> 00:48:13,355

Mm-hmm.

1081

00:48:13,385 --> 00:48:17,345

I think it's, so much of it is this

is the system we practice in front of.

1082

00:48:17,585 --> 00:48:21,545

If most of the judges are gonna do this

and this is just gonna keep happening.

1083

00:48:21,605 --> 00:48:21,695

Yep.

1084

00:48:22,685 --> 00:48:27,275

It just doesn't seem like to me,

maybe I was way too idealistic.

1085

00:48:27,335 --> 00:48:34,860

Um, and the previous crop of judges,

we did have some people that I.

1086

00:48:35,645 --> 00:48:38,345

They seemed like the judge that's in

your head when you're in law school.

1087

00:48:38,350 --> 00:48:38,370

Yeah.

1088

00:48:38,405 --> 00:48:38,465

Yeah.

1089

00:48:38,465 --> 00:48:40,715

But when that stays above it

all, everybody has their quirks,

1090

00:48:40,715 --> 00:48:41,825

everyone has their issues.

1091

00:48:42,035 --> 00:48:47,345

But you came in and you came in with

res, you treated the judge with respect.

1092

00:48:47,345 --> 00:48:49,895

The judges treated everyone

else with the respect.

1093

00:48:49,895 --> 00:48:56,225

Like you could have been having a

conversation, you know, you could have run

1094

00:48:56,225 --> 00:48:59,945

into each other at the lobby and just been

shooting the crap about something that

1095

00:48:59,945 --> 00:49:01,475

you're both interested in or be friends.

1096

00:49:01,475 --> 00:49:03,125

But when you walked in

that courtroom mm-hmm.

1097

00:49:03,425 --> 00:49:06,785

It was very formal and

all of that went away.

1098

00:49:06,785 --> 00:49:11,795

And that was just when you saw a judge

do something as a favor to someone

1099

00:49:11,795 --> 00:49:17,285

else, ex parte completely against the

rules, it seemed like it was just this

1100

00:49:17,285 --> 00:49:20,735

shining error that had to be addressed.

1101

00:49:20,735 --> 00:49:20,795

Yeah.

1102

00:49:20,795 --> 00:49:22,205

And I think that nowadays.

1103

00:49:23,525 --> 00:49:26,795

How many, how many things have you

heard in the last 48 hours that

1104

00:49:26,795 --> 00:49:29,105

people have told you that this

is going on or that's going on?

1105

00:49:29,105 --> 00:49:33,095

How many emails have we received where

people just outline the, oh, this

1106

00:49:33,095 --> 00:49:34,685

happened yesterday or the day before?

1107

00:49:34,865 --> 00:49:37,955

This is just part of the system and I

think the attorneys see it so often.

1108

00:49:37,955 --> 00:49:41,255

It just becomes something you have

to account for, something you just

1109

00:49:41,255 --> 00:49:43,205

have to tell your client about.

1110

00:49:43,295 --> 00:49:47,435

Um, back before, and you stopped

practicing, um, when they still

1111

00:49:47,435 --> 00:49:50,255

did assignment in Jefferson County

of Cases based on last name.

1112

00:49:50,255 --> 00:49:50,345

Yes.

1113

00:49:50,615 --> 00:49:53,225

So you could sit down at

an initial meeting and say,

1114

00:49:53,225 --> 00:49:54,215

okay, your last name is this.

1115

00:49:54,215 --> 00:49:55,445

Here's who you're gonna be in front of.

1116

00:49:55,505 --> 00:49:55,595

Oh yeah.

1117

00:49:55,655 --> 00:49:57,005

Here's how your case is gonna go.

1118

00:49:57,305 --> 00:50:02,555

When that went away, oh man, that

was the, the, my consultations had to

1119

00:50:02,555 --> 00:50:05,735

be longer because I would say, okay,

this kind of case, if you end up over

1120

00:50:05,735 --> 00:50:07,355

here, here's how I could see it going.

1121

00:50:07,415 --> 00:50:10,355

If you end up here, we're not ever

going inside the courtroom and

1122

00:50:10,355 --> 00:50:14,255

it's worth spending some money

to, to settle on something, to

1123

00:50:14,255 --> 00:50:15,455

not go in front of this judge.

1124

00:50:15,695 --> 00:50:17,885

And, but I don't know which one

you're gonna be in front of.

1125

00:50:17,885 --> 00:50:19,595

It became so much harder.

1126

00:50:20,210 --> 00:50:23,210

But that's only because we just

accepted it as part of the system.

1127

00:50:23,210 --> 00:50:23,270

Yeah.

1128

00:50:23,270 --> 00:50:25,130

It's some part of what we had to navigate,

1129

00:50:25,130 --> 00:50:25,580

Christine: so, okay.

1130

00:50:25,580 --> 00:50:29,390

I have no idea because I, in

Louisville, which the other county

1131

00:50:29,390 --> 00:50:32,510

judges would get mad about this,

but it was always the mom's last

1132

00:50:32,510 --> 00:50:34,280

name is how your divorce was filed.

1133

00:50:34,550 --> 00:50:34,610

Hugh: Yeah.

1134

00:50:34,610 --> 00:50:37,640

And then there's some new rules that

came in after Obergefell and Yeah.

1135

00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:39,500

And we were divorcing people

of same gendered couples.

1136

00:50:39,500 --> 00:50:39,830

Oh, for sure.

1137

00:50:39,830 --> 00:50:40,610

It was the petitioner.

1138

00:50:40,610 --> 00:50:40,880

Christine: Yeah.

1139

00:50:40,895 --> 00:50:41,095

Yeah.

1140

00:50:41,095 --> 00:50:41,295

Hugh: Yeah.

1141

00:50:41,300 --> 00:50:46,040

Christine: Um, but when it changed,

like, and you, so when you go in and

1142

00:50:46,040 --> 00:50:49,310

you get hired, you know, we fi we file

the petitioner, we draft everything

1143

00:50:49,310 --> 00:50:51,950

up, and then you go to court net and

you hit that click button, right?

1144

00:50:51,950 --> 00:50:52,010

Yeah.

1145

00:50:52,310 --> 00:50:55,010

Do you get assigned that second

or is it like the next day?

1146

00:50:56,180 --> 00:50:56,780

Hugh: I don't know.

1147

00:50:56,815 --> 00:50:57,405

I, oh, you have asked.

1148

00:50:57,525 --> 00:51:02,235

I'm embarrassed to say that I

haven't filed a case in many years.

1149

00:51:02,235 --> 00:51:06,135

I believe that it creates an envelope,

uhhuh, it doesn't get assigned

1150

00:51:06,135 --> 00:51:10,995

immediately, but then you know how,

uh, you file, uh, pleadings, you'll

1151

00:51:10,995 --> 00:51:14,475

pretty quickly get something out

that says it's been accepted or

1152

00:51:14,595 --> 00:51:18,945

there's something similar with your

case and it'll have a file stamped.

1153

00:51:19,635 --> 00:51:22,065

Copy that you can download of

all the pleadings that you filed

1154

00:51:22,065 --> 00:51:23,175

at the initial part of the case.

1155

00:51:23,175 --> 00:51:24,195

And it has the division on it.

1156

00:51:24,195 --> 00:51:27,075

So we knew, I knew very

quickly, quickly, okay.

1157

00:51:27,075 --> 00:51:32,025

Uh, we had it, we had flagged who

we got in front of and it was part

1158

00:51:32,025 --> 00:51:34,425

of the scuttlebutt in the office

that if you had a case that had a

1159

00:51:34,425 --> 00:51:38,985

specific issue and everyone knew it

would be, you're gonna be in for it.

1160

00:51:38,985 --> 00:51:42,255

If we get run into this division,

everyone was talking about it.

1161

00:51:42,255 --> 00:51:45,285

I, I would always find out, 'cause

I'd hear some people in my office

1162

00:51:45,285 --> 00:51:47,910

talking about, oh my gosh, I can't

believe we got this judge on the stage.

1163

00:51:47,950 --> 00:51:48,190

I could just

1164

00:51:48,190 --> 00:51:51,465

Christine: hear the curse words coming

outta my mouth if I filed like a divorce,

1165

00:51:51,735 --> 00:51:55,395

you know, low asset divorce and you drew

division seven, like, I'd have to get out.

1166

00:51:57,110 --> 00:51:57,585

I don't know.

1167

00:51:57,585 --> 00:51:58,270

I need to look into that.

1168

00:51:58,815 --> 00:52:04,065

Hugh: I, uh, yeah, I, there are certain

ones that if we were going to have to try

1169

00:52:04,065 --> 00:52:10,305

more complex issues and want to really

put a lot of evidence in and have the

1170

00:52:10,305 --> 00:52:14,265

judge rule on the evidence and establish

a good record, there's certain judges

1171

00:52:14,265 --> 00:52:17,385

I'd wanna be in front of, even if they

were things that they did that I think.

1172

00:52:17,860 --> 00:52:21,490

I appreciate if you, I don't have to wait

six months for a hearing and I can get

1173

00:52:21,490 --> 00:52:24,760

into front of you very quickly, but I

also don't wanna have to argue in front of

1174

00:52:24,760 --> 00:52:26,620

someone that's just going to yell at me.

1175

00:52:26,740 --> 00:52:27,100

Christine: I don't know.

1176

00:52:27,100 --> 00:52:28,840

I think when you're two years

outta that too, it's like

1177

00:52:28,870 --> 00:52:31,390

your job is to hear my case.

1178

00:52:31,450 --> 00:52:31,510

Yeah.

1179

00:52:31,510 --> 00:52:34,300

Your job is to hear my

case and all of the things.

1180

00:52:34,300 --> 00:52:35,560

You gotta buy circuit time.

1181

00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:36,310

You've gotta do this.

1182

00:52:36,310 --> 00:52:39,820

Why do you wanna be a judge if you

don't want to adjudicate the case?

1183

00:52:39,820 --> 00:52:43,180

Like sometimes I wonder why they

want us to settle so badly now.

1184

00:52:43,180 --> 00:52:46,300

Not that I don't think you should

settle as opposed to going to court.

1185

00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:50,110

But like, don't they like, like the law

1186

00:52:50,710 --> 00:52:51,460

Hugh: know, like if you were judge,

1187

00:52:51,460 --> 00:52:53,020

Christine: wouldn't you wanna be in court?

1188

00:52:53,020 --> 00:52:54,340

Hugh: Some judges hate having hearings.

1189

00:52:54,345 --> 00:52:54,465

Wow.

1190

00:52:54,470 --> 00:52:56,470

And it's so obvious they will put it off.

1191

00:52:56,470 --> 00:52:58,540

Anybody has the slightest thing.

1192

00:52:58,540 --> 00:52:59,440

Well, I have a conflict.

1193

00:52:59,440 --> 00:52:59,980

I'm trying to move.

1194

00:52:59,980 --> 00:53:04,000

Well, I think you might not be able

to move it, so maybe we should just go

1195

00:53:04,000 --> 00:53:07,840

ahead and reschedule and just like having

do, that's not how continuances work.

1196

00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:07,900

Yeah.

1197

00:53:07,900 --> 00:53:08,830

There are rules.

1198

00:53:08,950 --> 00:53:10,240

There are things that have to happen.

1199

00:53:10,270 --> 00:53:13,690

Quit having, uh, hearings and,

and there was one in particular

1200

00:53:13,690 --> 00:53:15,190

in the, in our last, uh.

1201

00:53:16,465 --> 00:53:20,605

You know, I say crop of judges that

the, the judges that are were before the

1202

00:53:20,605 --> 00:53:25,435

judges that are currently on the bench,

who would just, everyone would get there.

1203

00:53:25,435 --> 00:53:26,455

It would be for a trial.

1204

00:53:26,485 --> 00:53:28,345

You might've been fighting

over these issues.

1205

00:53:28,615 --> 00:53:30,085

You might've had two or three hearings.

1206

00:53:30,085 --> 00:53:30,925

You can't resolve 'em.

1207

00:53:30,925 --> 00:53:31,615

You've had Yeah.

1208

00:53:31,615 --> 00:53:33,505

Mediations, you've had

settlement conferences.

1209

00:53:34,195 --> 00:53:38,065

You were there to try it because

the courts for any reasonable

1210

00:53:38,065 --> 00:53:41,155

people are a place of last resort.

1211

00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:41,341

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

1212

00:53:41,346 --> 00:53:44,665

If you can settle your stuff and

handle things like a responsible

1213

00:53:44,665 --> 00:53:48,775

human, uh, if you can get two

responsible, rational human beings,

1214

00:53:48,775 --> 00:53:50,335

they shouldn't have to be in court.

1215

00:53:50,335 --> 00:53:50,425

Right.

1216

00:53:50,425 --> 00:53:54,265

There's a reason why something's

happening, or every now and then, everyone

1217

00:53:54,265 --> 00:53:56,845

is calm and rational and you just have

an interesting legal issue mm-hmm.

1218

00:53:57,085 --> 00:53:57,865

That no one knows.

1219

00:53:58,285 --> 00:53:59,155

But that's rare.

1220

00:53:59,605 --> 00:54:02,905

These people were in court 'cause they

were never going to get this settled.

1221

00:54:03,205 --> 00:54:04,675

And it happened time and time again.

1222

00:54:04,675 --> 00:54:09,295

This judge would always call counsel in

to chambers and there's nothing wrong with

1223

00:54:09,295 --> 00:54:10,705

it because they're talking to everybody.

1224

00:54:11,005 --> 00:54:11,095

Yeah.

1225

00:54:11,095 --> 00:54:11,155

Yeah.

1226

00:54:11,155 --> 00:54:11,545

Um.

1227

00:54:12,160 --> 00:54:13,990

And, and not saying there's

anything wrong with that, but it

1228

00:54:13,990 --> 00:54:16,750

was just strong arm into settling.

1229

00:54:16,750 --> 00:54:20,140

And I practiced in, uh, federal

court when I first moved, uh,

1230

00:54:20,140 --> 00:54:22,270

to Louisville in, in 2005.

1231

00:54:22,540 --> 00:54:23,530

And they would do the same thing.

1232

00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,350

They'd sit down, why are we having

this, why are we having this hearing?

1233

00:54:26,350 --> 00:54:28,540

Why are we gonna have to

call a jury on this issue?

1234

00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:29,470

Here are the numbers.

1235

00:54:29,470 --> 00:54:33,130

I think it's probably worth now the jury's

gonna make a decision later, but maybe

1236

00:54:33,130 --> 00:54:34,270

you should go get your case settled.

1237

00:54:34,660 --> 00:54:36,310

And it was effective.

1238

00:54:36,370 --> 00:54:36,460

Mm-hmm.

1239

00:54:36,460 --> 00:54:36,940

It worked.

1240

00:54:36,970 --> 00:54:38,050

They didn't have any say.

1241

00:54:38,110 --> 00:54:41,830

They couldn't actually decide that,

but they had an interest in freeing

1242

00:54:41,830 --> 00:54:43,540

their docket up and they could look.

1243

00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:48,010

And, you know, sometimes I think

a judge can see the bigger picture

1244

00:54:48,010 --> 00:54:52,390

than I know when I was, um, a

litigant, it was hard for me to step

1245

00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:53,500

back and see the bigger picture.

1246

00:54:53,500 --> 00:54:56,410

One of the things I loved about

working as on a team of people, I

1247

00:54:56,410 --> 00:54:58,810

had people that were not down in

the weeds of a case and could tell

1248

00:54:58,810 --> 00:55:00,430

me, maybe I'm getting lost on this.

1249

00:55:00,490 --> 00:55:00,670

Yeah.

1250

00:55:00,670 --> 00:55:01,960

And I need to, I need to step back.

1251

00:55:01,960 --> 00:55:02,770

I think sometimes.

1252

00:55:03,100 --> 00:55:06,700

The judge has that role, but there are

some of them that just do it all the time.

1253

00:55:06,700 --> 00:55:09,700

'cause they never want to have to

sit there and sit through a hearing.

1254

00:55:09,730 --> 00:55:11,500

And at least that's my opinion.

1255

00:55:11,710 --> 00:55:16,120

But it becomes so clear that you just

don't wanna make a decision on this.

1256

00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:17,560

You don't want to hear it out.

1257

00:55:17,860 --> 00:55:18,040

Christine: Yeah.

1258

00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:21,220

And I think, um, just like our family

court releases their docket, like our

1259

00:55:21,220 --> 00:55:23,080

district court judges won't even do that.

1260

00:55:23,350 --> 00:55:28,030

I think, there may be hell on,

there's no one on the bench right now.

1261

00:55:28,030 --> 00:55:31,000

It's probably four o'clock, so everybody's

been home for two hours, allegedly.

1262

00:55:31,300 --> 00:55:37,030

But, I digress when I pull, I've been

pulling all of the weekly dockets and

1263

00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:39,400

I've gone to see when the hearings

are scheduled and then you go to court

1264

00:55:39,430 --> 00:55:40,960

net to see if there was a hearing.

1265

00:55:41,050 --> 00:55:41,350

Judge-y June 24 Content: Sure.

1266

00:55:41,650 --> 00:55:43,810

Christine: How many times do you

think those hearings were resolved?

1267

00:55:45,220 --> 00:55:46,000

A lot.

1268

00:55:46,510 --> 00:55:49,180

but I think they do it to just

be like, Hey, I'm working.

1269

00:55:49,180 --> 00:55:53,800

Like I found one that was submitted by

an agreed order like three weeks prior

1270

00:55:53,830 --> 00:55:55,450

and it was still like a half day trial.

1271

00:55:55,510 --> 00:55:56,380

Hugh: It's still on the calendar.

1272

00:55:56,665 --> 00:55:59,830

yeah, Now I, to be fair, there, I have.

1273

00:56:00,640 --> 00:56:05,050

There's been a couple judges that I've

talked to, man, it's been a while, but it

1274

00:56:07,600 --> 00:56:11,290

judges that I practiced in front of,

earlier in my career, you spent a lot

1275

00:56:11,290 --> 00:56:14,200

of time in chambers and they would

sit down with both attorneys and

1276

00:56:14,410 --> 00:56:17,920

you would have conversations and you

would try to work things out and the

1277

00:56:17,920 --> 00:56:20,680

judge would want to get an idea of

what the issues were before going in.

1278

00:56:20,680 --> 00:56:26,290

I thought it was really helpful because

you felt you didn't have to start the

1279

00:56:26,290 --> 00:56:30,400

big picture and spell out the issues for

the judge, which if the judge, I mean

1280

00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,270

as a smart practitioner, you're going to

start high level and then work into the

1281

00:56:34,270 --> 00:56:39,310

details, but it, you get limited time

and family court, you are supposed to

1282

00:56:39,310 --> 00:56:41,560

get half the time, the allotted time.

1283

00:56:41,560 --> 00:56:46,720

So if a judge brought us in and we could

get to the chase, cut to the chase and

1284

00:56:46,720 --> 00:56:49,660

their whole role was to go in there and

you put on the factual evidence and make

1285

00:56:49,660 --> 00:56:51,820

your argument, I always appreciated that.

1286

00:56:52,450 --> 00:56:53,980

I was surprised.

1287

00:56:54,610 --> 00:56:58,120

in the past when we would get

things settled, the judge,

1288

00:56:58,450 --> 00:56:59,500

the judges would be like.

1289

00:57:00,040 --> 00:57:01,150

That's fantastic.

1290

00:57:01,180 --> 00:57:05,200

I'm gonna leave it on the docket

because I am so backed up with

1291

00:57:05,200 --> 00:57:06,400

orders, getting orders out.

1292

00:57:06,400 --> 00:57:10,780

So I know some of them would just leave

it blocked off to get their work done.

1293

00:57:11,470 --> 00:57:13,120

I didn't really have a problem on No.

1294

00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:14,740

'cause I was probably waiting

1295

00:57:14,965 --> 00:57:15,490

Christine: Nope, nope.

1296

00:57:15,580 --> 00:57:16,090

Waiting for

1297

00:57:16,090 --> 00:57:16,510

Hugh: orders.

1298

00:57:16,510 --> 00:57:16,870

But also

1299

00:57:17,950 --> 00:57:19,810

Christine: you work for

me, you are a taxpayer.

1300

00:57:19,810 --> 00:57:23,140

I wanna know how often

you're in court, period.

1301

00:57:23,140 --> 00:57:23,200

Yeah,

1302

00:57:23,500 --> 00:57:28,060

Hugh: I, think, I, can't say I disagree

with you on it, but I did see them

1303

00:57:29,020 --> 00:57:31,360

getting caught up, whereas they

could have taken it off the docket

1304

00:57:31,360 --> 00:57:34,690

and just, they have control in the

ability to not schedule anything.

1305

00:57:34,690 --> 00:57:38,320

They could have just done it in a

different way, but a lot of them I know.

1306

00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:40,030

So

1307

00:57:43,120 --> 00:57:47,440

in the latter years of my career, I

was getting involved more and more

1308

00:57:47,440 --> 00:57:51,610

on some of the confidential cases or

I would have confidential cases that

1309

00:57:51,610 --> 00:57:53,320

were, because they were high profile.

1310

00:57:53,905 --> 00:57:56,275

They were sealed, whether

they should have been or not.

1311

00:57:56,575 --> 00:58:00,955

my, my opinion as a member of the public

is different than as an advocate for one

1312

00:58:00,955 --> 00:58:02,755

of the sides, and it has to be right.

1313

00:58:03,415 --> 00:58:10,135

but I pretty regularly had to go over,

to the court to get a judge to sign

1314

00:58:10,135 --> 00:58:11,905

something to allow me to see a case file.

1315

00:58:12,235 --> 00:58:17,545

So we regularly, as There is a form, it's

an order that goes into the case that

1316

00:58:17,545 --> 00:58:19,915

says this person and would name my name.

1317

00:58:19,915 --> 00:58:22,225

I would fill it out the

affidavit and, sign it.

1318

00:58:22,225 --> 00:58:24,565

And then the judge would sign it

as an order and it would say, I

1319

00:58:24,565 --> 00:58:27,805

have an interest that should allow

me to examine that case file.

1320

00:58:27,805 --> 00:58:30,745

And it may not allow me to take any

of it or copy it or do anything else,

1321

00:58:30,745 --> 00:58:34,525

but that either someone's retained

me or I have an interest in it.

1322

00:58:34,765 --> 00:58:37,075

And I would have to go looking

for a, just to do that.

1323

00:58:37,555 --> 00:58:41,275

And how many times I went around and

I could see what was on the door.

1324

00:58:41,335 --> 00:58:41,455

Yeah.

1325

00:58:41,455 --> 00:58:44,125

And they would have their dockets

posted and there would be a hearing,

1326

00:58:44,455 --> 00:58:46,855

and there that door would be

locked, the lights would be off.

1327

00:58:46,855 --> 00:58:47,605

It was clear.

1328

00:58:47,605 --> 00:58:48,385

There's no hearing.

1329

00:58:48,721 --> 00:58:52,585

Now, did it cancel right before I.

1330

00:58:53,335 --> 00:58:54,535

We canceled hearings.

1331

00:58:54,535 --> 00:58:58,405

We, cases settle right before, so

some of those times, I'm sure it

1332

00:58:58,405 --> 00:59:01,045

canceled right before, and they

had printed that thing out the day

1333

00:59:01,045 --> 00:59:03,775

before, but there's nobody there.

1334

00:59:03,780 --> 00:59:06,295

But the thing is, and I couldn't

find, yeah, I would have to go on

1335

00:59:06,295 --> 00:59:09,595

all, every single time, unless I got

lucky, I'd have to go at least on

1336

00:59:09,595 --> 00:59:13,375

ev all three floors looking for one

judge to be there on an afternoon.

1337

00:59:14,965 --> 00:59:17,005

Christine: they have police,

there's law enforcement that are

1338

00:59:17,005 --> 00:59:19,975

trying to get warrants signed

and signed in district court.

1339

00:59:19,975 --> 00:59:20,665

And there's no one,

1340

00:59:20,665 --> 00:59:21,475

Hugh: there's just nobody there.

1341

00:59:22,885 --> 00:59:25,195

I'm not familiar with how,

it is in district court.

1342

00:59:25,195 --> 00:59:29,065

It was, oh, our local district

court, wa practice was just a

1343

00:59:29,515 --> 00:59:30,685

standard protect practitioner.

1344

00:59:30,775 --> 00:59:33,715

You had your nine o'clock rounds,

you went and did your cases at nine,

1345

00:59:33,895 --> 00:59:37,345

you did your one o'clock, and you

were gone way before the, workday

1346

00:59:37,345 --> 00:59:39,925

closed over there and you were back

at your office doing other things.

1347

00:59:39,925 --> 00:59:44,425

So I rarely, if ever had

to find judges over there.

1348

00:59:46,225 --> 00:59:49,735

I can't even think of circumstances

where I had to actually find judges.

1349

00:59:49,945 --> 00:59:53,065

Christine: I think that's what, like

judgey talking about why we're doing this.

1350

00:59:53,215 --> 00:59:56,665

I think judgey can just go to

court and see if it's Tuesday,

1351

00:59:56,665 --> 00:59:57,835

let's pick a time for next week.

1352

00:59:57,835 --> 00:59:58,285

Tuesday.

1353

00:59:58,285 --> 01:00:00,505

Pick a time during the

workday, not during lunch.

1354

01:00:00,565 --> 01:00:01,315

You pick one random day.

1355

01:00:01,315 --> 01:00:01,495

Oh, just

1356

01:00:01,495 --> 01:00:02,455

Hugh: like one 30.

1357

01:00:02,455 --> 01:00:02,515

Yeah.

1358

01:00:02,605 --> 01:00:02,815

Christine: Okay.

1359

01:00:02,815 --> 01:00:04,495

It was 1:30 PM on a Tuesday.

1360

01:00:04,765 --> 01:00:07,015

Let's go to the courthouse.

1361

01:00:07,195 --> 01:00:11,395

So you was there and let's see how many

of the 37, 39 judges there are, right?

1362

01:00:11,575 --> 01:00:11,785

Wait.

1363

01:00:11,785 --> 01:00:12,985

13, 10.

1364

01:00:13,435 --> 01:00:14,125

16, right.

1365

01:00:14,155 --> 01:00:14,575

39.

1366

01:00:14,905 --> 01:00:15,085

Hugh: Yep.

1367

01:00:15,385 --> 01:00:16,105

Christine: How many do you think?

1368

01:00:16,105 --> 01:00:16,495

Let's make a bet.

1369

01:00:17,785 --> 01:00:18,295

Hugh: Oh gosh.

1370

01:00:21,955 --> 01:00:25,795

my experiences with family court

and maybe it's the same across you.

1371

01:00:27,025 --> 01:00:30,175

I always, am naive enough to think,

oh, it's better in other, courts.

1372

01:00:30,175 --> 01:00:33,625

And then when I practice in front of

them, I realize this is just how it works.

1373

01:00:34,165 --> 01:00:38,575

other counties too, other jurisdictions,

I, practice in multiple, states.

1374

01:00:39,025 --> 01:00:39,085

I.

1375

01:00:39,100 --> 01:00:43,630

I, but I, yeah, I, if I was gonna

base it on the percentage I would

1376

01:00:43,630 --> 01:00:45,700

think in, family court, I'd say,

1377

01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:52,990

oh man, at one o'clock on a one 30

Tuesday, one 30 is early enough.

1378

01:00:53,740 --> 01:00:55,630

Christine: How sad is this

whole conversation right now?

1379

01:00:55,630 --> 01:00:55,750

Oh, I

1380

01:00:55,750 --> 01:00:57,820

Hugh: know, but I would say between 50 and

1381

01:00:57,820 --> 01:00:59,080

Christine: 60%.

1382

01:00:59,140 --> 01:01:01,765

Hugh: If you got up to three 30

or four and you asked me it would

1383

01:01:01,765 --> 01:01:03,100

be a totally different number.

1384

01:01:03,310 --> 01:01:06,010

Christine: I think we need to give them

like some grace, so we need to just pick a

1385

01:01:06,010 --> 01:01:09,400

time and then go, like at different weeks.

1386

01:01:09,400 --> 01:01:15,580

But I would say that I would bet

of the 39 judges, I would say,

1387

01:01:15,610 --> 01:01:18,100

because it is a Tuesday, so if you

get into Wednesdays, Thursdays and

1388

01:01:18,100 --> 01:01:19,390

Fridays too, you're gonna have less

1389

01:01:19,395 --> 01:01:22,060

Hugh: Friday, let's say

Friday at three o'clock.

1390

01:01:23,050 --> 01:01:24,370

Christine: four judges maybe.

1391

01:01:24,610 --> 01:01:26,950

I would say that there'll be

12 judges at the courthouse

1392

01:01:27,910 --> 01:01:29,050

Hugh: at one 30 on a Tuesday.

1393

01:01:29,596 --> 01:01:30,850

Oh, I think I'd take that bet.

1394

01:01:31,090 --> 01:01:31,720

Christine: You think more

1395

01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:33,100

Hugh: I do, but I.

1396

01:01:37,020 --> 01:01:38,575

I don't know that I'd

bet a lot of money on it.

1397

01:01:38,700 --> 01:01:38,725

I was

1398

01:01:38,725 --> 01:01:40,435

Christine: just say,

yeah, we can bet a beer.

1399

01:01:40,900 --> 01:01:41,635

I think this will be fun.

1400

01:01:41,755 --> 01:01:44,635

I think this is the kind of stuff

though that judges should do because

1401

01:01:44,635 --> 01:01:46,105

what if you, what if I'm crazy?

1402

01:01:46,105 --> 01:01:46,615

You know what?

1403

01:01:46,615 --> 01:01:49,140

If you're crazy and these judges

are working 60 hours a week, let's,

1404

01:01:49,140 --> 01:01:49,795

and they're at the courthouse.

1405

01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:50,260

Let, that's what I mean.

1406

01:01:50,260 --> 01:01:50,262

Let see.

1407

01:01:50,365 --> 01:01:50,485

And

1408

01:01:50,485 --> 01:01:50,545

Hugh: if

1409

01:01:51,325 --> 01:01:51,475

Christine: we're

1410

01:01:51,475 --> 01:01:53,500

Hugh: wrong, then let's report it

and let's tell everyone I apologize.

1411

01:01:53,500 --> 01:01:53,740

Like

1412

01:01:53,935 --> 01:01:56,245

Christine: I will apologize

until the cows come in.

1413

01:01:56,545 --> 01:01:56,965

Hugh: I agree.

1414

01:01:57,625 --> 01:02:03,385

and frankly, if you're not there and

all of your orders are out, and as a

1415

01:02:03,385 --> 01:02:06,235

practitioner, I've gotten everything

back that I should have and you've

1416

01:02:06,235 --> 01:02:08,605

completed your hearing and you want

to give your staff the afternoon

1417

01:02:08,605 --> 01:02:09,685

off and be nice and you're gone.

1418

01:02:10,855 --> 01:02:13,525

You may not be doing what you're

supposed to be doing, but I don't

1419

01:02:13,525 --> 01:02:14,905

know that I've got a problem with it.

1420

01:02:14,905 --> 01:02:15,055

I agree.

1421

01:02:15,205 --> 01:02:20,635

My issue is if you are a judge and I've

been waiting eight months for something,

1422

01:02:20,935 --> 01:02:24,295

And a kid can't, we can't get a kid

enrolled for medical care or something.

1423

01:02:24,295 --> 01:02:25,345

We've been waiting eight months.

1424

01:02:25,690 --> 01:02:27,730

And I cannot find you.

1425

01:02:28,180 --> 01:02:29,170

No matter what.

1426

01:02:29,350 --> 01:02:31,450

And we cannot get a hearing

in front of you for a month

1427

01:02:31,450 --> 01:02:33,580

and you're just not at work.

1428

01:02:34,690 --> 01:02:35,830

that's a huge problem.

1429

01:02:35,830 --> 01:02:35,920

Huge.

1430

01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:40,690

It's a huge failure of what, the

public, of their service to the public.

1431

01:02:40,870 --> 01:02:41,710

Christine: Oh, this is gonna be fun.

1432

01:02:42,190 --> 01:02:42,610

Okay.

1433

01:02:42,970 --> 01:02:43,240

All right.

1434

01:02:43,240 --> 01:02:45,220

Well, I feel like we should

be at a wrap for today.

1435

01:02:47,110 --> 01:02:48,700

Hugh: Getting ourselves deeper

and deeper into trouble.