In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Nicole Dubois, Head of HR at Parallel ENT & Allergy, to talk about why human judgment still matters as AI becomes part of everyday HR work.

Nicole brings an operator's lens to the conversation. Before moving into HR, she led a region with a $60 million P&L, then moved through executive search, talent acquisition, startup people operations, and now full-suite HR in healthcare services. That path shapes how she thinks about HR's role in the business, not as a function that needs to prove its importance every day, but as one part of a larger operating system where finance, operations, IT, and people teams each have moments where they need to lead.

The conversation also covers Nicole's own shift from AI skeptic to regular AI user. She talks about using AI for note-taking, resume support, interview questions, and as a way to pressure-test her thinking. But she is clear that AI should complement HR judgment, not replace it. In healthcare, recruiting, employee relations, and compliance, people still need context, empathy, human conversation, and the ability to understand what a tool cannot see.

Nicole also shares how her remote HR team builds cross-functional awareness, why subject matter expertise matters when employees or patients arrive with AI-generated information, and where she draws the line in talent acquisition. AI can help surface resumes, refine interview cadence, and speed up the work, but Nicole still wants the full picture and the ability to double-check the tool's output.

Topics Discussed:

• How Nicole Dubois moved from finance operations into full-suite HR leadership
• Why an operator's mindset helps HR work more effectively across the business
• What it means for HR to have a seat at the table without treating every function as a competition
• How Nicole moved from AI skepticism to using AI regularly in HR work
• Why AI should complement human connection instead of replacing it
• How healthcare shows the limits of AI when trust, expertise, and care are involved
• How HR can respond when employees use AI or search tools to interpret workplace issues
• Why subject matter expertise still matters when people arrive with partial information
• Where AI can help in recruiting, interview design, and resume review
• Why AI-only hiring creates risk, especially in human services and healthcare roles
• How HR teams can build broader internal knowledge through shared context and collaboration
• Why Nicole still wants to double-check AI's work before making people decisions

If you are an HR or People Ops leader trying to use AI without losing the human judgment behind good people decisions, this episode offers a practical look at where AI can help, where it should be checked, and why real conversations still matter.

Additional Resources:

• Cleary's AI-powered HR Chatbot
• Future Proof HR Community
• Connect with Nicole Dubois on LinkedIn

They keep telling us that it's all over.

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For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

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be prepared to be decimated.

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We reject that message.

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The future of HR won't be handed to us.

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Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

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Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

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what they've learned, and what's next.

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We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

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Nicole Dubois: Hello and welcome

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Thomas Kunjappu: to the Future Proof

HR podcast, where we explore how

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forward-thinking HR leaders are preparing

for disruption and redefining what it

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means to lead people in a changing world.

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I'm your host, Thomas Kunjappu.

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guest is

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Nicole Dubois, head of HR at Parallel

ENT & Allergy, an administrative MSO that

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partners with ENT and allergy practices

to run the administrative functions so

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doctors can stay focused on being doctors.

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Nicole's career path into HR

is anything but traditional.

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She started in a brick-and-mortar

finance company as a senior director

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overseeing a region and a 60 million

P&L, then pivoted into executive

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search, built talent acquisition at

a startup, scaled a people function

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through acquisition, and now leads the

full HR suite in healthcare services.

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brings an operator's mindset, a

practical view of AI in HR, a clear

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belief that the future-proofing playbook

starts with collaboration inside

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HR teams and across the business.

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Nicole, welcome to the podcast.

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Nicole Dubois: After that

introduction, what more can I say?

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Thank you so much, Thomas.

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It's great to be here.

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It's great to be here.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Absolutely.

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Tell me a little bit about the

non-traditional path into the function.

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It's always intriguing when people

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Do

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Nicole Dubois: yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: little bit different.

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Nicole Dubois: It's, certainly-- So early

on in my career, I had exposure to full

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suite operation, operational business

purview, and I found that I innately

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gravitated towards the people, and

betterment of culture, and betterment of

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leaders building leadership qualities,

and helping people feel like they were

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a part of something bigger every day.

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And then finally, I was like,

finance isn't my strong suit.

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I am, like, level one in Excel.

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You can ask our CFO.

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It's laughable at this point.

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But I really gravitated

towards the people space.

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And so getting into a full suite HR

Scope isn't as easy as some people

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might think, and so I took the talent

acquisition route and found somewhat of

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a niche there, and then spearheaded that

into leading a TA suite for a startup,

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and then had the operational capability.

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And so in true startup fashion, if you

can do it, you'll be asked to do it.

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And so I just kept building

and building, and here I am.

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How many years later?

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I don't know how it's 2026 already.

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Thomas Kunjappu: It is.

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So wait, so did you have an explicit

game plan career-wise to say, "Okay,

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now I'm gonna go into full suite

HR," when you made that first,

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Nicole Dubois: I did.

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I did.

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Yeah.

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And so I knew I wanted to get into

the people space, and I didn't know

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exactly what avenue I wanted to take,

but with the company I was at the

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time, this was years pre-pandemic,

full remote work wasn't really a thing.

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It was going to require a relocation,

and all my family is where I am, and

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I wasn't ready to make that move yet.

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So I found something locally that would

really be the catalyst into either staying

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in executive search talent acquisition

or building a full suite HR role.

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And so I made the leap, and here I am.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So being in HR, I'm sure

you've heard the all the conversations

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about having a seat at the table being

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: seriously, having

an impact beyond administration

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and in and running a $60 million

P&L in previous experience I think

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you have an understanding maybe

more so than most of what it means

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to be directly in the hot seat and

responsible for real numbers directly.

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: What has that experience

taught you for, when you've coming

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into the very different HR role sitting

across the table sometimes from,

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Nicole Dubois: I

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Thomas Kunjappu: before?

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Nicole Dubois: think it's given me,

in particular, and I would hope all

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of my colleagues would say the same, a

mutual respect or a mutual understanding

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of what each individual operation,

operational department does day to day.

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So you can't function without an

operational team, or you can't function

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well without an operational team.

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It's like your appendages.

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You can't function well without

somebody leading the finance helm,

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and you certainly can't function well

without somebody in the people seat.

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And then, have the ancillaries, I'll say.

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IT is necessary to be able to function day

to day, especially in this day and age.

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And so having a mutual understanding

of how important each of these critical

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departments are, I think gives that

mutual respect where I have been afforded

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a seat at the table in most positions.

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I also can't help myself and,

bringing in other skill set and

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say why haven't we tried this?"

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Or, "Oh, I've done this before."

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And it-- if you have a good team

and a good understanding of I'm

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going to sit back and listen to

what another department has to say.

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It really does bring the groups

together collaboratively.

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Perhaps I've just been very fortunate in

my career that I've worked for leaders

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that give you that opportunity and

will hear and listen and say, "Yeah,

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we-- I think that's great, but…"

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Or, "Oh, we should try that."

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But having that collaborative

relationship with your, your peers

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or your counter departments, I think

is really critical for HR to have a

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seat at the table and have a voice.

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And I also think we all need to be

realistic as leaders in a business in

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that no one department is necessarily

more important than another.

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There will be days where the

finance team takes priority.

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There will be days where the

operations team takes priorities.

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You think of, like major floods or

hurricanes or something along those lines.

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Operation go time, right?

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You can't not focus on the operational

boots on the ground piece there.

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But then you think of how important are

people getting paid during that time?

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What am I supposed to

do if I report to work?

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Is this gonna burn my PTO?

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What do the laws say?

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What do, what is my leader saying?

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And so us all working cohesively,

I think really requires a mutual

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understanding of the importance of

our day-to-day responsibilities.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Okay.

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You ma- you almost made my question

sound like a psychological crutch.

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Nicole Dubois: Sorry.

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Thomas Kunjappu: that's like a you problem

if you feel like you're not important.

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But yeah it's almost-- I like that

concept of it's the most important

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thing on a g- on a given day, right?

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And the whole point is you're always

working cohesively so that whenever

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a particular department needs

to shine, given the context it's

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: to.

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah, absolutely.

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And it's, really just having

empathy for your peers, right?

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Everyone is going to innately think if

you were to talk to me about building

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culture and building a great place to

work and having a framework of policy and

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procedure for the people in the business

I would say that's critically important

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to me in what I do day-to-day, making

sure people are paid on time, making sure

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people understand what they can take when.

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But if you talk to one of my

counterparts in IT operations,

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finance, strategic implementation,

anything along those lines, they'll

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have a different set of priorities.

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But understanding as leaders your

peers' priorities, I think is

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very important to how we can all

work together to create a unified

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priority list to better the business.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So I want to

talk a little bit about a story

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you were telling me before,

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: someone maybe

you know very well who was an

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incredible AI skeptic, and then

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Nicole Dubois: Me.

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Thomas Kunjappu: and how that has evolved.

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Tell me a bit about how,

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Your initial

skepticism or did I say your one of

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those in the firmly anti-AI camp when

it comes to like HR or the workplace?

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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It, in my first 100% people-focused

role when I was in, talent

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acquisition 100% of my day, I was so

old school in my mentality, right?

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You-- And this was

pre-pandemic for the most part.

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Sitting across the desk from someone,

getting to know them, looking at

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their resume, looking at their

body language, looking at their

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reaction, it was my bread and butter.

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And, you look-- going through 100 resumes

on a rip and seeing what they're…

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And then, recruiting for finance

positions, which is what I was doing at

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the time, you're looking at where they

went to school, you're looking at their

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GPA, you're looking at their internships,

you're looking at all of these things.

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And I think to myself, "How can a computer

possibly put together all of these finite

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things that create the person and create

who the best candidate is for the job?"

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And you hear of the horror stories,

I'll say, of this one might get you.

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I don't know if you've ever heard of this.

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People will actually

put in teeny, tiny font

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On the bottom of their CV or resume

buzzwords for AI to pick up and

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make it white text, so it doesn't

show on the CV, but it will pop

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if a computer is reviewing this.

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And you hear that and you're

like, "Wow, that's brilliant."

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People are outsmarting the computer

to get physical eyes on their resume.

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And so you hear that, and I

was slow to adopt, no question.

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I could run through resumes.

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I could take a look and compute it really

easily and find a candidate for the role

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fairly easily if there was a large pool.

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So why would I need it?

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And as my scope ramped, as my career

evolved, as I had teammates dragging

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me along on this journey like,

"Hey, you really gotta see this.

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You gotta try this," I started

slow, dictating emails, looking

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at grammatical things and, asking

random questions here and there.

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And I dove-- I think the first

thing I ever had AI do was I

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just loaded my resume into it.

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I'm like, "Hey, write me a bio."

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"Let's just see what you have to say about

me, because who knows me better than me?"

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I was like, "Wow, this is really good.

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This is great.

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Okay, copy, paste, send it off."

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And from there, it, it-- I use

AI in some functionality daily.

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And so truly was the ultimate

skeptic when it came to this because

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our-- my business is human-based.

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Like HR, f- any-- I'm sure, obviously

IT, finance, and I talk to my IT director

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all the time, say I am, I won't say

tech inept, but I'm pretty close, right?

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I'm very slow to adopt change.

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It took me 45 minutes to figure out how to

connect my AirPods to my computer because

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they don't have the button anymore.

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And it, it-- I am hum- like I am

in a human function, and you're--

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there's really no substitute

for shaking somebody's hand or

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looking somebody in the eye.

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But we're pretty damn close.

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You can really feel someone's

emotions through a screen now.

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And at the pandemic, I think one

of the silver linings of that

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really hard time in all of our

lives was we were forced to adopt.

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We were forced to evolve as humans

to really shrink the world around us.

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And for those skeptics like

myself we had no choice.

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We had to really dive into the

virtual space headfirst and figure

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out how to still be business leaders.

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And so that was a really pivotal point in

my career, and then taking that forward.

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And you can't overlook AI anymore.

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It's in every facet of what we do.

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You Google something now, and

AI is the first thing that pops

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up, and it's really helpful.

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And we all work a little bit faster.

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I think we all can do a little bit

more with our day because of tech

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moving forward as fast as it does.

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So I am no longer a skeptic.

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I am a full convert.

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I use AI functionality regularly.

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Via note-taking apps and resume

tweaks and reviews, and then random

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questions here and there, because

it's truly HR, you're always supposed

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to be unbiased, and we do our very

best to show up that way every day.

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But we're also in the business every

day, and so we understand all of the

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sides of it, and you really can have a

difficult time pulling yourself out of it.

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And all of the AI apps out there, you

say what would you do in this situation?"

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Or, "Give me advice on how to coach

this person or lead this person," and

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What's your unbiased thought.

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And while you might not use it, it

makes you think, and it really does,

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I think, make us all better, more

well-rounded in a way to have that

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go-to platform, can't say person, but

platform to, to check yourself in a way.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

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So you ta-talk about…

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Starting to talk about use cases, but

the trans-transition story kind of

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remind when you're talking about the

the speed at which you you are doing

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your job and all the inputs that you'd

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Nicole Dubois: yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: gotten to for, let's

say, like the interview process,

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resume review, screening a-and

everything in talent acquisition.

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It remind-- I thought about,

some babies take longer to

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walk because they're so good

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: sometimes

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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That comfort zone.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Like I-- not just that,

but you're also so good at this already.

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Like, how can

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And maybe actually the

gains for someone who's an

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah

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Thomas Kunjappu: might

be relatively minimal.

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But then you talked about opens

your aperture to many other things.

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Or you can only be an expert

in so many things with your

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Nicole Dubois: Absolutely.

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Thomas Kunjappu: you can

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Nicole Dubois: Absolutely.

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Thomas Kunjappu: at going broader.

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But then also it seems like

it's almost a challenge to that

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fundamental identity, right?

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Earlier when we talked about how you

gravitated towards the people side, even

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in an operational and P&L responsibility

role, that, that's part of the identity.

264

And I think that's true

for a lot of the function.

265

People

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: function, that's my--

that's why me, my peers, and this function

268

kind of exists, and like something

that's going to erase that, right?

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Nicole Dubois: 100%.

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Thomas Kunjappu: but then

you've, It does it, do you

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Nicole Dubois: No, you, you-- no,

and I think that there's this innate

272

fear that one day computers are

going to take over the world and

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we're all going to be reporting to,

I don't know, a massive human-created

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thing, at the end of the day.

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And I don't think that's the ca--

maybe it's just my seat, maybe it's my

276

perspective, but I work in healthcare.

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There is no replicable feeling for a

surgeon holding your hand going into

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surgery and putting your mind at ease.

279

I was talking to one of our partner

physicians, and their grandson was

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undergoing an operation by one of their

peers, and I was like, "Oh my gosh," why

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are you even speaking to me right now?"

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"Is everything okay?"

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The human, the mother in me was

like, "Tell me all about it."

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Checking in with him later, he's

"Oh, no, he's in great hands.

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He's with my co-worker.

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He does this every single day.

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I have full implicit trust."

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It's-- he sees this every day, so he

was less of a wreck than I was, and

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I've never met his grandson personally.

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But it really-- there's no-- you

can't replicate that human connection.

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But as leaders in business, we can

do everything we can to complement

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the technical side of a business,

the AI side of a business, and how

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can we utilize the tech component

to make us better in our jobs every

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day rather than, like myself, true

real-life example, shying away from it.

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If I was still reviewing resumes

physically, reading through all of them

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rather than just looking for buzzwords.

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If I was still writing manually

interview questions, whereas now I'll

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write them, I'll capture the spirit

of what I wanna do, and then I'll

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utilize AR software to say, "Hey, this

is the role that I'm looking to fill.

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Give me improvements

that can be made here."

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It's-- you still create the

foundation, but you use the

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tech to make it even better.

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And it-- if you can't guide…

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I use this analogy every day

almost, garbage in, garbage out.

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If I'm writing horrible bias, interview

questions The computer only knows

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what I'm giving it, but if I'm writing

well-rounded and telling them the end goal

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for what or telling it the end goal for

what I want to convey in an interview,

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it will take that and make it better.

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And then I have my ability to read it and

say, "Oh yeah these are pretty darn good.

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I absolutely can use this, and then I

can keep this question throughout in

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other positions to make sure that we're

standardized across the organization."

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So I think it's not working against it.

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I think it's working to complement

the tech so the tech can allow

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us to be better operators.

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Thomas Kunjappu: That's

clearly at shift and a

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Nicole Dubois: Oh, 100%.

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Thomas Kunjappu: 2026 and, for the

last couple years running as we--

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for any kind of modern HR team.

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theme seems to be the the HR

reality of doing more with less,

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: as, just the…

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healthcare is one of the bright spots, but

generally speaking, the the economy has

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shifted into a different one where there's

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We don't have 0% interest rates anymore.

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Maybe AI

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

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Thomas Kunjappu: a part of it, but

it just seems like there's more

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constraints everywhere you look.

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How how do you think about scope,

prioritization in this world and

330

with AI, but also the broader

constraints for you and your team?

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Okay, thank

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Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

333

It's in our function specifically,

I think it's keeping the end goal in

334

mind, and we are here to help support

our teams feel like they wanna show up

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their best selves to work every day.

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We're building-- We're

responsible for supporting our

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leaders in building a culture.

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It's-- The culture piece just

doesn't fall with HR, but we're

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the sounding board for it.

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We wanna have an open door policy where

practice administrators and physicians

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can come to us and say, "Hey I'm

having this problem with Sally Sue.

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She's a little bit late to work every day.

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She just seems down.

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I really wanna do what's right here,

but it's impacting my business."

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That's the hardest spot to be

in because as humans, we wanna

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be empathetic, we wanna be

sympathetic to somebody's situation,

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Also we have a business to

run, and we're not running a

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nonprofit at least in our seats.

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And so working together to keep

that end goal in mind, I think is

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most important for my team and I.

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You have to-- And then there's

the table stakes in HR.

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People need to get paid on time.

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People's W-2s need to be accurate.

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People need to follow, baseline

policies and all of that.

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But we are probably one of the most

predominant functionalities where

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we live in the gray every day.

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Humans have free will.

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Humans have the ability to make

an intentional decision with or

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against a policy that's in place,

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A response, we need to work with our

leaders to make the best decision for

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that particular situation, and then

you level that up, and that particular

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decision then sets a precedent for

the rest of the organization because

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Thomas Kunjappu: right.

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Nicole Dubois: you've made a decision

that somebody can compare you against.

365

And so when you think about how we do

more with less every day, I do think

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it's keeping that end goal in mind.

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What are we truly operating towards?

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And that's building the best

culture we can for our teams,

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for the leaders that we support.

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And one thing that I am immensely

proud of in the team that I have now,

371

and I can't take full credit for it.

372

I inherited some amazing individuals

when I joined Parallel, and so I give

373

them all of the credit where it's due.

374

But one thing that I've been really

passionate about in teams that I have

375

built from the ground up is giving them

exposure to all facets of the business.

376

And so they have a baseline understanding

of what would do if they're on PTO?

377

Or what would, what would Megan do

in this situation, who's our benefits

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manager to make this decision?

379

And, her colleague Tara has enough

exposure to it to be able to make an

380

informed decision, so she doesn't need to

be reliant on her peer 100% of the time.

381

That cross-functionality and that

cross-pollination of responsibility isn't

382

where they live every day, but it does

make us an incredibly well-rounded team.

383

So when you really get into the weeds

and you have an immensely difficult

384

situation that you're trying to solve

for, we can come together as a team of

385

four, I have three people that roll up

into me, and make a well-rounded decision

386

together because they all have enough

exposure in each individual functions

387

to, to make a, an educated-- to have

an educated, conversation around it.

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Thomas Kunjappu: It's not

389

Nicole Dubois: that's how I…

390

Thomas Kunjappu: it's not useful

391

Nicole Dubois: Y-yeah.

392

Thomas Kunjappu: there's no

context at all, like to have

393

your opinion be voiced, right?

394

So it actually

395

Nicole Dubois: right.

396

Thomas Kunjappu: if there's

some of that in the background.

397

So actually, so that's interesting

because, f- y- it usually feels like

398

for any one of these sp- subspecialties,

operations, benefits, payroll, leave,

399

it-- everything, you end up having

a person's 120% of their time taken.

400

But then

401

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

402

Thomas Kunjappu: making room and time

to find, make it more like 80% maybe.

403

I don't know.

404

I'm coming up with numbers where they

can get an understanding of these

405

other a- facets of the function.

406

How do you practically enable that?

407

And I'm wondering if if technology

plays any role in enabling that further.

408

Nicole Dubois: We're a fully remote team.

409

We just happen to have two

people on the team that live,

410

somewhat close to each other.

411

I think they live about

half an hour apart.

412

But they're not working from, each

other's kitchens on a day-to-day basis.

413

It is exactly what we're doing.

414

It is having a virtual conversation,

utilizing the technology we have available

415

to us, Teams, Slack, text, whatever it

might be To shrink our space and to make

416

us more nimble or, "Oh, hey, I just…

417

Did you know that our

HRIS system can do this?

418

Did you know that I can schedule

send, several emails all at once so

419

I don't have to open this door now?

420

I can do it when it's more appropriate."

421

We are in the middle of our review

process now, and it took, our payroll

422

and onboarding manager, who manages

our HRIS system predominantly.

423

I came up with the content.

424

She uploaded the content.

425

We then tested review, sending out our

reviews several times to make sure that

426

the reporting structure was accurate, how

it looked, how it felt going through it,

427

how the, if there was any-- If you clicked

out of the box and you were scrolling

428

with your mouse, did it give someone a

one when they should have gotten a three?

429

Like, how does that all look?

430

It is constant communication.

431

It is, there's no, pause on that.

432

We're humans.

433

We need connection to be able to

best perform in our space, and at

434

least from my perspective, right?

435

Someone in a different function might

say something completely different,

436

but for us, we are leading people.

437

We are working with people, and so we need

others to, to help us on that journey.

438

Constant communication on our end.

439

We are multiple different channels,

multiple different email threads,

440

different system work in, we're working

my onboarding manager is building out

441

a, an onboarding deck for individuals

joining the organization, and she's

442

working in another platform to help

design it, and she's doing beautiful work.

443

She's "I've never done this before."

444

I'm like, it's so excite-- to have her

learn something new through technology,

445

and she's doing fantastic with it.

446

And so then sharing that with her peers,

"Hey, I'm using this new software.

447

Look at what I just built."

448

We all get excited because we know

it's gonna better the organization

449

in the end with the output stream.

450

Thomas Kunjappu: This has been

a fantastic conversation so far.

451

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

452

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

453

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

454

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

455

can all thrive in the age of AI.

456

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

457

community.

458

Now back to the show.

459

So I wanna talk a little bit about the

broader organization too, because it's

460

so interesting you're in healthcare.

461

And one of the things I've heard

is although you talked a l-

462

are a lot of specialists, but,

463

Nicole Dubois: yeah.

464

Thomas Kunjappu: care

physicians, for example, their

465

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

466

Thomas Kunjappu: is being rocked a little

bit in the sense that many patients

467

are coming into appointments with,

468

A lot of AI research about

their particular ailments.

469

We had the WebMD kind of world before,

and now-- but we've got this…

470

It feels like it's it's different anyway.

471

Nicole Dubois: It's vastly different.

472

Thomas Kunjappu: self-educated,

semi-educated, fully wrongly, but

473

In terms of how they're, like, showing up.

474

And so that's one way that

like a certain type of part

475

of the economy or doctors are,

476

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

477

Thomas Kunjappu: or in the healthcare

are, like, seeing im- impact or effects of

478

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

479

Thomas Kunjappu: other worlds, you hear

about people thinking about this g- thing,

480

this thing is gonna take my job, all jobs,

481

Nicole Dubois: Right.

482

Thomas Kunjappu: a- and things like that.

483

A part of the reaction or the role

of the HR function is in helping

484

folks navigate this shift and,

all the different ways that it's

485

impacting them in in these examples

486

of second-order effects.

487

How are you seeing that in your broader

organization, and what do you think

488

is the, the role of the, you and your

team in driving that conversation?

489

Nicole Dubois: Yeah, that's a really good

question, and I would say healthcare's

490

a really fantastic example of that.

491

The WebMD example is a really

fantastic example of that.

492

Also, the employment law piece

of that is a fantastic example

493

Thomas Kunjappu: H-

494

Nicole Dubois: that.

495

Thomas Kunjappu: have our

own in HR, right, Yeah.

496

Nicole Dubois: like you can

Google anything and someone

497

can say, "Oh, this is the law."

498

It's yeah, that's actually the law

in California, and you reside in

499

Texas, and our company is based in

Dallas, so no matter how it slays a

500

California law isn't applicable here.

501

And,

502

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

503

Nicole Dubois: trying to understand

where the person is coming from first

504

and foremost, whether it be an employee

or a patient, I think is step one.

505

And so if you have a mother who is

concerned about their child's care

506

and they're, Googling or WebMD-ing or

telehealth-ing all of these things,

507

it's-- you are standing there in

person with a trained clinician.

508

And so y- I had this conversation

with my son's pediatrician a couple of

509

months ago, and it's, it's-- he said

there's not really cause for concern.

510

Here's why."

511

And he walked me through the whole thing.

512

In that moment, I'm

trusting him as the expert.

513

He is the clinician in the

room, and we're talking about, I

514

forget what it was at the time.

515

Let's say it's the flu shot, right?

516

And, this is, studies show this.

517

I'm trusting him as

the expert in the room.

518

"Okay, great, doc," "thank you so much."

519

Help-- he's been my son's pediatrician

since he was two hours old.

520

We're lucky enough to have

that continuation there.

521

And so I think empathizing with

a patient or an employee, say, "I

522

understand where you're coming from.

523

I know the end result you want.

524

Let me help you understand where

I am coming from as the subject

525

matter expert in the room."

526

So similar example in the HR

space, if you have someone who

527

brings to you a claim hostile work

environment is a great example.

528

Someone said, "Oh, this is

a hostile work environment."

529

And it's I understand

where you're coming from.

530

You are certainly, presenting

a very uncomfortable situation.

531

Did you know that a hostile work

environment has a legally defined term?

532

It doesn't mean your situation

is any more or less uncomfortable

533

here, but let's- Talk about it.

534

Let's really seek to understand

535

The cause of the problem is.

536

And of course, as the HR leader in

the room, I'm thinking, "Absolutely,

537

we need to find out if this

is a hostile work environment.

538

What you're telling me right now

doesn't go that route, but I want

539

you to have a voice, and I want you

to feel supported in this moment."

540

And, then after you unpack all

of that with them, "This is an

541

incredibly uncomfortable situation.

542

I understand where you're coming from.

543

Let me get to the bottom of this

with a very thorough investigation.

544

But just so you know, Joe Schmo, Sally

Sue, Suzy Q, whomever it is, it--

545

there is a legally defined term that

quantifies a hostile work environment.

546

It doesn't mean that we will handle

this in any different way from an

547

investigation standpoint, but just so

you know that's what the law states.

548

And, I don't write the law.

549

My colleagues don't write the law.

550

No HR leader, can change the law in an

instant waving a magic wand," right?

551

So it really is giving them that

clarity, but also allowing them

552

to feel supported, I think, as the

subject matter expert in the room.

553

Somebody can AI or Google what

is a hostile work environment.

554

They could get a two-bit response or a

response that's tailored to what they

555

put into Google without knowing the

full understanding of what's behind it.

556

Just like WebMD or, any of the apps

out there trying to diagnose something.

557

Thomas Kunjappu: It's a different

level with LLMs because it's not just

558

a search and a response to an SEO or a

classified answer to a generic question.

559

It's, you feel more confident because

you're asking a second question and

560

a third question, and you're chatting

with it, and there's more context.

561

And now you feel "Okay,

562

Nicole Dubois: Absolutely.

563

Absolutely.

564

Thomas Kunjappu: for what's true for me."

565

But for all the reasons that

you mentioned, it can still

566

be-- you can still be off.

567

So I think this

568

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

569

Thomas Kunjappu: in some way the moment

you could search for information is

570

free and available through the internet,

but it's a different level almost.

571

And I wonder if take any expertise, right?

572

Nicole Dubois: Sure.

573

Thomas Kunjappu: Across the board

574

Nicole Dubois: Anything.

575

Thomas Kunjappu: Surgeon,

576

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

577

Thomas Kunjappu: An HR

compliance or employment law

578

Nicole Dubois: Right.

579

Thomas Kunjappu: right?

580

It's just…

581

I wonder if it actually re- le- lessens

the respect for the credentials, right?

582

From the broader consumer's

kind of mind, and

583

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

584

Thomas Kunjappu: is implicitly,

higher with the relationship

585

that you have with your AI in

586

answering the question versus the expert.

587

just

588

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

589

Thomas Kunjappu: full musing there.

590

I don't know.

591

Nicole Dubois: No, it's a valid point.

592

Human beings are more empowered than they

ever have been as a species, I think.

593

We have immense access to knowledge,

and it, it-- knowledge is power.

594

And so I think if you look at it from a

different lens, and you have a patient

595

or an employee coming to you that has

sought to understand their particular

596

concern, it's clearly important to them.

597

They took the time to research it.

598

They took the time to understand it

better than just a novice baseline,

599

"Hey, my, my ear hurts," or, "Hey,

I'm having a problem with my boss."

600

But they're trying to,

601

Have a collaboration with the expert

in the room, or at least that's how I

602

would like to think that it comes in.

603

Now,

604

Thomas Kunjappu: Right.

605

Nicole Dubois: 50 shades

of interpretation here.

606

Thomas Kunjappu: We live in gray, right?

607

Yeah, like

608

you

609

Nicole Dubois: Exactly.

610

And so it's, someone could actually

come in trying to trump you and

611

say, "I know more about this,"

and it, that, that can be a very

612

difficult conversation to navigate.

613

And so you just come to it open and

understanding, and if they are really,

614

firm in their understanding, which

may or may not be valid you just seek

615

to understand and say, "Okay what is

the end result we're looking for here?

616

Are you looking to have

your boss put on a PIP?

617

Tell me why.

618

If

619

Thomas Kunjappu: right.

620

Nicole Dubois: are, what do we-- what

do you think is a valuable outcome,

621

and how can we move past this?

622

Ultimately, we just want," and

surgery is very different, right?

623

But in my seat, what I can control what

is the end result that you're looking for?

624

Okay I can't fire Sally

Sue because you want me to.

625

I need valid concern, and ultimately

we wanna give the benefit of the doubt.

626

And if you were in their seat and

someone was coming to me about

627

you let's have some, some empathy

here, and let's try to move forward

628

collaboratively and build something

better than it was yesterday, today, I

629

guess is how I always think about it.

630

Thomas Kunjappu: I love it.

631

It's a very professional and

positive outlook on how to

632

approach these situations.

633

Nicole Dubois: You have to be.

634

Thomas Kunjappu: let's stay in

635

Nicole Dubois: You have to be.

636

Thomas Kunjappu: on some,

637

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

638

Thomas Kunjappu: draw on another

area of your expertise, which is

639

specifically about talent acquisition.

640

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

641

Thomas Kunjappu: with AI tools I feel

like there-- that's been one of the

642

areas within HR where there's been a lot

of implementation of it, and you kinda

643

talked about resume screening, sourcing.

644

There's-- it's in sourcing,

it's in interviewing.

645

It's in every phase in some kind of way.

646

Do

647

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

648

Thomas Kunjappu: any personal red

lines or after having experimented

649

trying-- being an expert in this whole

set of processes before the AI world

650

and seeing what's possible and what's

651

av-available, are there any shoulds

and shouldn'ts from your perspective?

652

And there's even been

lawsuits coming out in the,

653

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

654

Thomas Kunjappu: In the recruiting world.

655

What does naturally come to you

as the use cases where you're

656

leaning in versus leaning out?

657

Nicole Dubois: There are certainly

some roles where you-- I think

658

we all-- we know the old adage,

fake it till you make it, right?

659

There are some roles where you can

certainly still get away with that.

660

Y- talent acquisition may be one of them.

661

You could just be a really charismatic

person looking to get into an

662

entry-level TA role, a very good

interviewer, and you're given a shot,

663

and you could be immensely successful

and build a career into that.

664

Then there are some roles where you can't,

and people are using AI and all of the

665

knowledge that they have available to

them in the inter, the internet world

666

to empower them in a capacity like this.

667

I could be googling-- I, for

all, you know-- obviously you've

668

seen my LinkedIn and all that.

669

I could not-- I could be an

IT person, and I'm just AI-ing

670

this entire conversation, right?

671

That's-- You've seen those videos where

people are having AI do the interview

672

for them because companies don't take

the time to have this interaction

673

A-and even turn on a camera.

674

And when you think about healthcare and

the credentials that comes with it we

675

run extensive checks, credentialing,

background checks, all of these screens

676

to make sure that individuals are and

have the skill set that they say they do.

677

And you don't want someone who doesn't

have that to be your care provider.

678

And so there are certain industries

and things of that nature where I

679

think of like cosmetic dermatology.

680

You don't want someone who has been an

ER PA putting neuromodulators in your

681

fa- because you could end up, with a

dropped eyelid or something like that.

682

You just don't-- you need a specialized

skill set, and so it comes with

683

an extensive amount of training.

684

And so I think as,

685

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah,

686

Nicole Dubois: first and foremost,

as consumers, you wanna talk to the

687

individuals who are performing any sort

of service, whether it be healthcare or,

688

your tax preparer or anything like that.

689

Ask them some simple questions.

690

Knowledge is power.

691

If you might not be an expert in that

space, but if they are convincing and you

692

have a level of trust there, absolutely.

693

To answer your original question in the

AI space and the dangers there, I think

694

Thomas Kunjappu: and

695

Nicole Dubois: as…

696

Thomas Kunjappu: specifically

about talent acquisition, right?

697

So like in the recruit--

everything that you do as a

698

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

699

Thomas Kunjappu: what could you…

700

Because and I'll just go all

the way to imagine a candidate

701

experience where there's zero human

interaction ever because it's an

702

AI system that you apply to that

screens the resumes, does vis- video

703

Nicole Dubois: Sure.

704

Thomas Kunjappu: and even

705

Nicole Dubois: Yep.

706

Thomas Kunjappu: an offer, right?

707

That that's one extreme

that you could imagine.

708

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

709

Thomas Kunjappu: companies aren't

there, including you, but you naturally

710

get to some things where you're using

it and some where you're not, and I'm

711

just trying to draw out if there's

any intuition about why and why not.

712

Nicole Dubois: It-- Yeah, and

I think the why, it-- we could

713

get there for some roles.

714

I don't think we ever would get

there for the roles that require

715

human services, human connection.

716

You can't have a fully robotic or

AI interview process without getting

717

to kn- you have no idea who's

showing up to work the first day.

718

Now, if this person is simply in a back

office-focused position and doesn't have

719

much human interaction, it certainly

could be possible in five, 10, 15

720

years, or maybe tomorrow, who knows?

721

And it might be all right, but when you

are looking to bring someone on board

722

into your company, I think innately

everybody wants upward mobility,

723

everybody wants more responsibility.

724

Who are you-- how can you say you trust

or, trust someone with a component

725

of your business without ever having

a, had a real conversation with them?

726

Even if it's just something like, "Hi,

I'm our COO, CFO, CEO, CPO," whatever it

727

is, and getting a feel for who they are,

both in their professional and personal

728

life, because we're, we are well-rounded.

729

I don't think that AI will

ever be-- maybe I'll eat my own

730

words in 10 years, who knows?

731

But I don't-- I think it's a real

cautionary tale to have AI completely

732

wipe out the human component of hiring.

733

And I think in some fields it is even

more dangerous when you think of the human

734

services fields, you think of financial

representatives for your companies

735

healthcare providers, all of that.

736

Replacing the onboarding interview

process with full AI intuition is--

737

it could be a real cautionary tale

for a lot because then you have…

738

even if, let's say, you hire a physician

in a fully AI interview process and

739

they show up to surgery on their

first day, someone should absolutely

740

be observing them at the very le-

like it's, it-- could you imagine

741

being the patient on that table?

742

It's just, it's impo-- at least in my mind

right now, it's an absolute impossibility.

743

Thomas Kunjappu: for

having you imagine hiring

744

Nicole Dubois: Like

745

Thomas Kunjappu: s-

746

Nicole Dubois: I,

747

Thomas Kunjappu: unseen and

748

then

749

Nicole Dubois: can't even, I can't

750

Thomas Kunjappu: having

751

Nicole Dubois: e- any healthcare provider,

you need to be able to put together the

752

symptoms, and you could even be entering

the symptoms in an AI-based platform that

753

could spit out some possible diagnoses.

754

And again, not a healthcare

provider, so I'm sure I'm butchering

755

whatever that process might be.

756

But It-- there's still a human

interpretation of that because you're

757

physically looking at the patient, you're

physically interacting with the employee,

758

and I could put in every HR concern

imaginable in an AI piece in, for-- to

759

circle back to talent acquisition, I

could put in every possible component on

760

somebody's resume and ask AI, "Is this

person a viable candidate for XYZ role?"

761

And you're only basing it on paper.

762

You're only-- You're not

basing it on the human.

763

Somebody could have a badass resume and be

the best candidate on paper, and then be

764

incredibly, flat or unengaging as a human.

765

And so then if they're presenting to

the board or they're expected to lead

766

a team, AI can't account for that.

767

Thomas Kunjappu: So let me

768

Nicole Dubois: That's just…

769

Thomas Kunjappu: so while I

have you, Nicole, let me ask the

770

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

771

Thomas Kunjappu: because like we don't

772

Nicole Dubois: Sure.

773

Thomas Kunjappu: all the way to that like

774

Nicole Dubois: Okay.

775

Thomas Kunjappu: But if you're looking

at what you got-- what you're doing today

776

Nicole Dubois: Yep.

777

Thomas Kunjappu: your recruiting process,

778

What steps involve some AI, if at all,

that obviously didn't five years ago

779

because w- the technology didn't exist?

780

You can think about everything

from talent attraction, sourcing,

781

communication, resume screening,

the interviews and on, right?

782

But where do you-- On the other side,

like, where do you clearly see a value

783

and, a shift in the way you work?

784

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

785

I think building, at least something

I can say that we use AI for, is

786

complimentary screening of an interview

cadence and making sure that you're

787

building out a multi-round interview

process and that the questions

788

flow well, they're not redundant.

789

And so you can put in interview phase

one, interview phase two, interview

790

phase three, who's doing what.

791

You also can ask an AI generator,

"This is the role we're hiring for.

792

They're reporting into our COO.

793

Who do you think is the

best, cadence for interview?

794

Here's our org chart."

795

And it'll really churn

out some amazing things.

796

I think it's a bit of a loaded

question in our industry in particular,

797

because we are hiring for an immense

amount of healthcare-based roles.

798

And so I would say, for the

initial interview questions, AI

799

can certainly support in that.

800

But all of our clinicians we hire are

boots on the ground in the practice at

801

least once, sometimes multiple times.

802

So I'll leave those aside for

the question because there's no

803

substitute for that, in my opinion.

804

You have to see how you jive

with your potential colleagues.

805

But from building out of the framework,

806

Is invaluable.

807

I think AI can do a great job,

and this is where some of my

808

skepticism will still come in.

809

AI will do a great job of

highlighting resumes that should

810

float to the top of the pile.

811

But I can't give up.

812

I still want the whole, I

still want the whole pot.

813

If I have 500 people apply for a role,

I think AI can certainly highlight the

814

top 20 But I still want access to the

480 so I can double-check its work.

815

But that's just me.

816

That might not be everybody else.

817

Thomas Kunjappu: but verify.

818

I think especially when you

have the expertise to verify.

819

Thank you for this conversation, Nicole.

820

I think we'll have to leave it there.

821

So as we wrap up,

822

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

823

Thomas Kunjappu: How can folks connect

with you or follow your journey?

824

Nicole Dubois: Yeah, absolutely.

825

I'm on LinkedIn, Nicole Dubois.

826

Nicole E.

827

Dubois, I think, actually.

828

I'm based in Upstate New York.

829

I'm head of HR for Parallel ENT

& Allergy, and it's been a real pleasure.

830

Thank you so much for having me.

831

Thomas Kunjappu: Thank you.

832

It's been really interesting talking

about some of these parallels which

833

I didn't even expect between consumer

behavior that has shifted and how that

834

is showing up for doctors and clinicians

and in a similar way for HR teams, right?

835

And it speaks to s- how broad the

the impact, so second and third

836

order effects of this revolution

that we're a part of have been.

837

And thank you for your candid

reflections on, your skepticism and

838

allergy no pun intended parallel,

but to, AI in the beginning and how

839

you thought about it practically and

for grounding the thinking a little

840

bit in just being an operator, right?

841

Out- outside of HR and all the

collaboration, which I think I really

842

sense as a theme, both in how you're

working across functions, but also

843

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

844

Thomas Kunjappu: together and getting

knowledge and cross-pollination.

845

And that sense of going broader maybe is

a theme as well for many of us, right?

846

Where you can leverage AI to g-

learn faster and get into more skill

847

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

848

Thomas Kunjappu: But if you're creating

a whole onboarding deck, that could

849

take you m- multiple months, but you're

maybe a lot faster at that or just

850

going into new of t- new territory.

851

And,

852

Nicole Dubois: Yeah.

853

Yeah.

854

Thomas Kunjappu: I love that we still…

855

there's that skeptic in you in

terms of recruiting and places.

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I think that's a real thing.

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If you are already an expert or really

good at something, the bar is so high

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for, for something else to dislodge

that, and that should be the case.

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And maybe lean t- into it for things that

you're not as good at, and then you might

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Nicole Dubois: 100%.

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Thomas Kunjappu: just don't have--

There's no way I would have had

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the time to learn this or get

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Nicole Dubois: Absolutely.

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Thomas Kunjappu: this."

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So many d- different thoughts like this.

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So thank you, Nicole.

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And for everyone out there who is

future-proofing their organizations

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and their own functions, I hope

you took some value out of this

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conversation with Nicole DeBois.

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Thank you.

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Nicole Dubois: Thanks so much

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Thomas Kunjappu: Thanks for joining

us on this episode of Future Proof HR.

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If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

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review on the platform you're

listening to or watching us on.

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Or share this with a friend or colleague

who may find value in the message.

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See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age of AI.