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2023-06-25. Resilience
Episode 5925th July 2023 • Aboard Podcast • Aboard
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Rich and Paul discuss the classic startup dream of world-changing impact. But in today's unpredictable landscape, the real key is resilience. To develop a software that fosters collaborative communities that revolve around trust. This podcast is sponsored by Aboard.

Transcripts

Paul Ford:

So rich.

Rich Ziade:

Paul, it's good to see you.

Paul Ford:

It's good to see you, too.

Paul Ford:

People don't know this.

Paul Ford:

We went to summer schedule because you were out for a couple weeks in Lebanon

Paul Ford:

Doing some work and also on vacation.

Paul Ford:

I took a couple days off.

Paul Ford:

So summer is over, baby.

Paul Ford:

It's July, but

Rich Ziade:

We're not Europe,

Paul Ford:

it's hot startup

Rich Ziade:

Fun is over.

Paul Ford:

No more fun.

Paul Ford:

I want to pitch you a whole theme and concept for the rest of our lives.

Rich Ziade:

I thought I told you not to come up with any ideas while I was away.

Rich Ziade:

What have you been doing?

Paul Ford:

here we go.

Rich Ziade:

Wait, so this is an idea, a theme for the rest of our lives.

Rich Ziade:

Alright.

Paul Ford:

Wait, so first we gotta take a step back.

Paul Ford:

We are launching a product, and it is gonna be out relatively soon.

Paul Ford:

It's out in limited beta right now.

Paul Ford:

You know, we told people, if you DM us, uh, we'll get you in on the beta.

Paul Ford:

That's actually true.

Paul Ford:

If you're a Ziotti Ford listener, we'll march you right to the front of the line.

Paul Ford:

So, so go ahead, DM away.

Paul Ford:

I'm glad to hear from you.

Paul Ford:

The product is called a board and a board.

Paul Ford:

We have three verbs that we're using with a board, um, collect, collaborate,

Paul Ford:

organize, actually, I got them out of order, collect, organize, collaborate.

Paul Ford:

Sorry, sorry, everybody for that order.

Paul Ford:

So the, what it lets you do is bring in lots of data, not just data

Paul Ford:

from the web and it tries to make it really smart and clean it up,

Rich Ziade:

When you say data from the web, you just mean a link.

Paul Ford:

bookmarks, you know, visual and easy to use and so on.

Paul Ford:

And then, but you can also add your own, you can make your own

Rich Ziade:

You can type your own.

Paul Ford:

when people see that, when people see it look pretty, they're like,

Paul Ford:

Ah, it's like Pinterest for everything.

Paul Ford:

And I'm like, no, cause you can, it's also like Google Docs for everything.

Paul Ford:

So, all right.

Paul Ford:

And then you can talk and chat and comment, like you

Paul Ford:

can work collaboratively.

Paul Ford:

You can also publish out to the world.

Paul Ford:

And so, and everything can be nicely organized and tagged.

Paul Ford:

And so it's very visual.

Paul Ford:

We're very proud of it.

Paul Ford:

So here we go.

Paul Ford:

And there's a funny thing that happens when you're launching software.

Paul Ford:

And I, I've thought about this with some of the work we've done before and

Paul Ford:

the way that we organize the agency.

Paul Ford:

You kind of need a theme and I don't mean You might tie this up into brand equity.

Paul Ford:

You might tie this up into mission and so on I'm, just going to call it theme

Rich Ziade:

You mean like a vision?

Paul Ford:

not even just let's stick with theme for a minute Okay, because

Paul Ford:

themes tend to be like first of all, there's the theme of i'm going to make

Paul Ford:

a lot of money and change the world That's the classic startup narrative.

Paul Ford:

We're going to blow up the world and we're going to get a lot of money Yeah.

Paul Ford:

Um, regardless, I, you know, we like to make money, but I don't, that is not

Paul Ford:

what we walk in in the morning and do.

Paul Ford:

We walk in the morning, we go, how's the product?

Paul Ford:

Right.

Paul Ford:

We don't,

Rich Ziade:

Yeah, as an end goal, money, we've, I mean, and this

Rich Ziade:

was the case even at the agency.

Rich Ziade:

Uh, that we ran when you're only aiming for money, it tends to like misalign a lot

Rich Ziade:

of the things that you should be focused

Paul Ford:

I mean, it really does, like you can't, you

Paul Ford:

can't just do that every day.

Paul Ford:

Even if you,

Rich Ziade:

a great product that people love.

Paul Ford:

if you're a bank, you have to have like a good experience

Paul Ford:

or people just go to another

Rich Ziade:

Yeah.

Rich Ziade:

You can say, I need your money.

Rich Ziade:

Yeah.

Rich Ziade:

That's not going to

Paul Ford:

Give me your money.

Paul Ford:

So anyway, um, okay.

Paul Ford:

So, so there's like the classic startup theme.

Paul Ford:

I'm going to blow up the world.

Paul Ford:

I'm going to change everything.

Rich Ziade:

to change the

Paul Ford:

Change everything.

Paul Ford:

Everybody's going to see, and I think a lot of that is always like,

Paul Ford:

everybody's going to see how smart I am.

Paul Ford:

I'm going to show them how, they're going to, whoo, look out, here I come.

Rich Ziade:

Yeah.

Rich Ziade:

Look, I mean, I do respect the sort of naked ambition of a,

Rich Ziade:

of a startup founder, right?

Paul Ford:

I have felt that ambition in different times in my

Rich Ziade:

It's cool.

Rich Ziade:

I mean, it's ridiculous and it's very risky and it's, I, I, I, I embrace it and

Rich Ziade:

I, I, I applaud people who try to do it.

Paul Ford:

It is although I will say when you're outside of it talking

Paul Ford:

to someone who has the vision they are They sound bananas, right?

Paul Ford:

So it's just

Rich Ziade:

Some lose the script, right?

Rich Ziade:

I, I've, I've had interactions with, with founders of fast growing startups.

Rich Ziade:

They're like, so what, what is your plan?

Rich Ziade:

And they'll say, I'm gonna make a billion dollar company,

Paul Ford:

that there's also I'm good people in the future are going to use

Paul Ford:

this instead of Google and it'll be like a smart shoe Right, you'll be like Okay,

Paul Ford:

I'm not quite sure how that's gonna

Rich Ziade:

look, I think thinking big is okay.

Rich Ziade:

I think when you think big money, it gets, it gets complicated, right?

Paul Ford:

humans get confused.

Paul Ford:

So there's that narrative and there's a growth narrative.

Paul Ford:

Grow, grow, grow, grow, grow.

Paul Ford:

And, um, and also we're in a space where there are a lot of competitors.

Paul Ford:

We're not alone in wanting to organize the world's data on

Paul Ford:

the internet in a collaborative

Rich Ziade:

In fact, I think a trend of sorts seems to be taking hold.

Rich Ziade:

There's a few others that are trying to double down on the web and give people

Rich Ziade:

great tools to collect stuff off the web, which is cool to see, by the way.

Rich Ziade:

I think it's very validating for

Paul Ford:

That's the thing in the past, I think we would have looked at them and be

Paul Ford:

like, they're garbage to hell with them.

Paul Ford:

But

Rich Ziade:

it's good for us.

Rich Ziade:

It's good for us.

Rich Ziade:

We're gonna crush them all that's a separate

Paul Ford:

when I see that people have been able to gather attention and create

Paul Ford:

utility that isn't that good right and like okay, if we can where are we

Paul Ford:

gonna live inside of all of that and um What's been on my mind a lot and I was

Paul Ford:

thinking, I was thinking, cuz you and I went and I went to Asbury Park, New

Paul Ford:

Jersey, big trips, sat in the ocean for a minute and thought, and I'm like, what

Rich Ziade:

a boat

Paul Ford:

No on a, on the, on the sand.

Paul Ford:

Oh.

Paul Ford:

And um, and I thought for a minute and I was like, you

Paul Ford:

know what, what is this thing?

Paul Ford:

What is the narrative?

Paul Ford:

What is the theme?

Paul Ford:

What do we talk about?

Paul Ford:

And you know what we talk about a lot resilience.

Paul Ford:

We talk about how Lebanon has been through it.

Paul Ford:

And how quickly and how, how complicated it is to respond to stressful

Paul Ford:

economic situations and how, like, and we talk about our own lives and

Paul Ford:

how they've had some real ups and downs, especially in the early days.

Rich Ziade:

mean if you're 50 you've had ups and downs.

Paul Ford:

What do you do most mornings before you come in or many mornings

Paul Ford:

before you come in right before work?

Rich Ziade:

I Have some breakfast and I work out

Paul Ford:

Um, do you work out because you're going to be the most handsome

Paul Ford:

man in the world and the most powerful?

Rich Ziade:

Um, I already checked the handsome man box,

Rich Ziade:

so no, that's not my goal.

Rich Ziade:

Um, it, uh, I, you know, for me, working out is very much

Rich Ziade:

mental as much as it is physical.

Rich Ziade:

Um, it's also like I need that ugly piece of resistance in the

Rich Ziade:

morning that I have to climb over just to get going for my day.

Rich Ziade:

That's my own brain.

Rich Ziade:

Other people work out for different reasons, but yeah,

Rich Ziade:

it's very meaningful to me.

Rich Ziade:

I also make my bed.

Rich Ziade:

I make my bed every day.

Paul Ford:

Interesting, I didn't know this about you actually.

Paul Ford:

It's the first time I've ever learned this after

Rich Ziade:

I like, it brings a little order to my day.

Rich Ziade:

I'm not the neatest guy in the world or anything like that, but I

Rich Ziade:

do make my bed before I leave the

Paul Ford:

I get this.

Paul Ford:

And then you come home and the bet is made.

Rich Ziade:

That's a good outcome.

Paul Ford:

you know, when I look at why you work out, you're not actually,

Paul Ford:

you're, you're normal amount of vain.

Paul Ford:

Like you're not extremely vain in

Rich Ziade:

No, no, also, it's a diminishing

Paul Ford:

Well, and you're, you're, you're, you're no longer

Paul Ford:

as young as you used to be, right?

Paul Ford:

And so like when you talk about it, you talk about it in terms of resilience.

Paul Ford:

You want to be strong and flexible and to be able to age in a

Paul Ford:

more gradual, controlled way.

Rich Ziade:

It's control.

Rich Ziade:

It's great, like, not being active, you start to feel, as you age,

Rich Ziade:

in less and less control, yes.

Rich Ziade:

And, and, and, and also, you're fighting time.

Rich Ziade:

You literally, I mean, this has been documented.

Rich Ziade:

You could see, see it in writings and documentaries that it

Rich Ziade:

slows down the aging process.

Rich Ziade:

But that's not my goal.

Rich Ziade:

It just makes me mentally a lot, it just lines me up.

Paul Ford:

look, the miracle of semi glutide showed up in my life.

Paul Ford:

I've lost about 50 pounds.

Paul Ford:

I have plenty more to lose, but I have, I've been on my bike a lot lately.

Paul Ford:

I've been doing more lately and it's nice.

Paul Ford:

People say like, Hey, you're looking good.

Paul Ford:

You know, good for you.

Rich Ziade:

good.

Paul Ford:

It does.

Paul Ford:

But the real deal is that I was in no way like.

Paul Ford:

Health events and life events could really knock me off the

Paul Ford:

track when I was at my biggest.

Paul Ford:

And I couldn't quite get control of it and it really sucked.

Paul Ford:

And what I feel is not this like, I'm gonna look great, I'm gonna have

Paul Ford:

some before and after photos that get everybody all hot and bothered.

Paul Ford:

I could give a shit.

Paul Ford:

But what I love is that I'm gonna be more able to respond to the

Paul Ford:

world around me instead of having to like kind of retract from it.

Rich Ziade:

Control and adaptability.

Paul Ford:

And so what I'm realizing is that as people who are starting a

Paul Ford:

company in mid life, like we are middle aged men, flat out by definition, we are,

Rich Ziade:

we are.

Paul Ford:

we are thinking not about taking over the world.

Paul Ford:

And we're also not thinking about everybody saying what good boys are we.

Paul Ford:

Reality and success in this is that we actually disappear.

Paul Ford:

It's nice we're on this podcast, but people, if this thing succeeds, no one

Paul Ford:

will be saying, Boy, Rich and Paul.

Rich Ziade:

No, our heads are not going to be in the logo.

Paul Ford:

But also just like, the founders disappear

Paul Ford:

with successful products.

Paul Ford:

Nobody knows who Sergey Brin is who isn't us, right?

Paul Ford:

Nobody, you know, Elon Musk is unusual in that he wants to be this relentless voice.

Paul Ford:

But most, most people just focus on the products they use.

Paul Ford:

That's right.

Paul Ford:

Right.

Paul Ford:

And so like, that's success.

Paul Ford:

This success in a funny way, to me is true life success is

Paul Ford:

I'm able to react, I'm healthy.

Paul Ford:

Um, I work with a few people that I like, not a million.

Paul Ford:

And I have, uh, and frankly, I don't need credit for the things

Paul Ford:

that I put into the world.

Paul Ford:

I would like to see other people do things

Rich Ziade:

Mm hmm.

Paul Ford:

the, the, the things that I put in the world.

Paul Ford:

And then I looked at.

Paul Ford:

Um, and this is where I'm going to finish pitching and then I

Paul Ford:

want you to give me feedback.

Paul Ford:

Um, and for listeners like this is an actual like, Rich and I briefly

Paul Ford:

talked about this before, but I'm actually throwing this out to see

Paul Ford:

what, what he makes of it to see if this theme is going to line up

Paul Ford:

because the theme will influence the copy we write and the story we tell.

Paul Ford:

And it actually turns out the story is not quite as important,

Paul Ford:

but almost as important as the software when you're building

Rich Ziade:

hugely important.

Paul Ford:

So, um, when I look at a board, what I see is there.

Paul Ford:

Is When you look at social media and you look at the other tools

Paul Ford:

that get built, they're built for all kinds of environments.

Paul Ford:

And actually what I'm realizing is a lot of them have a very,

Paul Ford:

very strong opinion about trust.

Paul Ford:

And let me explain that for one second.

Paul Ford:

So the problem with Twitter right now is you can't trust anybody on it.

Paul Ford:

You can't put anything out.

Paul Ford:

If you put anything out there, you can be attacked at any moment.

Paul Ford:

And people are kind of at war.

Paul Ford:

And actually one of the things that's fun about Elon Musk is because he's such a bad

Paul Ford:

leader for it, he's just turned it into an absolute cage match of, of human misery.

Rich Ziade:

It's a form of entertainment.

Paul Ford:

now, I mean, it's, it's in its true form, right?

Paul Ford:

Like it used to be at least people would pretend to be nurturing on there.

Paul Ford:

And now it's just like, you don't believe in my kind of socialism.

Paul Ford:

I'm coming at you for the next six

Rich Ziade:

lost their minds.

Paul Ford:

Just amazing, right?

Paul Ford:

So very low trust environment is how I would put it.

Paul Ford:

And you can't even trust that like your DMs are going to remain private.

Paul Ford:

Anymore.

Rich Ziade:

There's a lot of threats.

Rich Ziade:

Right?

Rich Ziade:

Like, as, as Twitter...

Rich Ziade:

as, I mean, if we're going to focus on Twitter for a second, imagine

Rich Ziade:

when we use these platforms, right?

Rich Ziade:

We tend to pour a lot of ourselves into them.

Rich Ziade:

Like our, our information is there.

Rich Ziade:

Our family photos are there.

Rich Ziade:

Our identity is very much shaped by these

Paul Ford:

You can log into other things with them.

Rich Ziade:

Yes.

Rich Ziade:

And, and what ends up happening most of the time is that the platforms

Rich Ziade:

themselves actually, There's a pact.

Rich Ziade:

It's like an unwritten pact that like I'm gonna do you right because I am

Rich Ziade:

going to observe your behavior and probably sell it and put ads in front

Rich Ziade:

of you, but I'm gonna do you right.

Rich Ziade:

And I think what's happening with Twitter, which is interesting, is that

Rich Ziade:

he's essentially saying I am in God mode.

Rich Ziade:

I didn't make that deal, right?

Rich Ziade:

And so, it's a lot of implicit threats.

Rich Ziade:

It's, it's almost corny.

Rich Ziade:

Like, it's, it's such a goofy style of aggression.

Rich Ziade:

Like, it's just the corniest.

Rich Ziade:

It's like the Steven Seagal of, like, technology.

Rich Ziade:

It's like a lot of flexing, but the person's not actually a Kung Fu expert.

Rich Ziade:

He's just an actor, right?

Rich Ziade:

It's a lot of that.

Rich Ziade:

Which would I would watch I'm not gonna lie.

Rich Ziade:

Look it's entertaining from a like just a social observation perspective

Paul Ford:

Like technology.

Paul Ford:

It's like a lot of

Rich Ziade:

But but what you're talking about is is is is you're touching on

Rich Ziade:

something really important Which is I don't think people appreciate how fragile

Rich Ziade:

it all is, you know when they appreciate it when like Google Photos goes down.

Rich Ziade:

That's when they appreciate it,

Paul Ford:

let me go the other direction environments in which, okay, we admit

Paul Ford:

that no one can trust anyone else.

Paul Ford:

And like, everything is needs to be structured.

Paul Ford:

Now we go the other way to enterprise software, Salesforce is an ERP tools.

Paul Ford:

If you want to accomplish or do anything in those tools, you have to be given

Paul Ford:

all sorts of rights and permissions that are set into the database.

Rich Ziade:

It's inversed.

Paul Ford:

zero trust in a funny way really I don't I can trust the platform,

Paul Ford:

but the platform doesn't trust me, right?

Rich Ziade:

Have you ever seen Microsoft's Policy Manager?

Paul Ford:

yeah.

Paul Ford:

No, no, it's It's endless and I've been thinking about I've been thinking

Paul Ford:

as I've been thinking about all this stuff and think about my friends I have

Paul Ford:

a friend Pete listen to this podcast.

Paul Ford:

Hi Pete.

Paul Ford:

I'll tell you what if there was a bad flood I kind of expect

Paul Ford:

Pete to show up in a canoe.

Paul Ford:

Like, you know, I have that relationship with you too.

Paul Ford:

Like, it's just like, and people have that relationship with me.

Paul Ford:

Like, I better show up.

Paul Ford:

It's the, it's the deal we made, right?

Paul Ford:

And what I realized, what I really want to build, and what I want a

Paul Ford:

board to be, is resilient software for building communities like

Paul Ford:

that, for, for that kind of trust.

Paul Ford:

And if you look at the decisions we made in the product, I'm not

Paul Ford:

coming out of left field with this.

Paul Ford:

It's a very trusting product.

Paul Ford:

You only get to bring a few people in.

Paul Ford:

Like, we haven't set a cap, but let's say eight, right?

Rich Ziade:

hmm.

Rich Ziade:

Mm hmm.

Rich Ziade:

Smaller circles of

Paul Ford:

because the people who come in can move the cards around and change the

Rich Ziade:

have power, right out of the

Paul Ford:

We are giving people power with the assumption that

Paul Ford:

it's not for 50, 000 people.

Paul Ford:

We thought about that.

Paul Ford:

We thought about, you know, because Slack will do that.

Paul Ford:

Slack will get you to 30, 000 people.

Paul Ford:

They can talk in all the open channels, etc.

Paul Ford:

That's not a board.

Paul Ford:

A board is about getting the thing done, organizing it, and the people

Paul Ford:

who get, the people who come in.

Paul Ford:

As an admin, as a creator, you have certain powers, like

Paul Ford:

you can publish the board.

Paul Ford:

Not anyone can say, I want to make this all public.

Paul Ford:

You know, there's, you can kick people out over time.

Paul Ford:

And we can figure, we're figuring all that stuff out.

Paul Ford:

But the reality is we are creating this very constrained, trust driven environment

Paul Ford:

for high levels of collaboration.

Paul Ford:

And when I think about.

Paul Ford:

Resilience because the world is messy right now and needs more resilience

Paul Ford:

like just that's one of the big climate words I think a lot about how we've

Paul Ford:

architected this product because it is actually built with a very strong point

Paul Ford:

of view about What that means and I don't we've never said this out loud, right?

Paul Ford:

But it's just like I think we have built a resilient software product where people

Paul Ford:

on Mobile phones can coordinate and work together to achieve certain goals.

Paul Ford:

So that goals might be like let's pick a movie

Rich Ziade:

hmm.

Rich Ziade:

Mm

Paul Ford:

You know the goal might be like I want to buy a fancy car like

Paul Ford:

that's life, but it might also be like hey Boy could really use someone to

Paul Ford:

pick me up because a little trouble coordinating babysitting today You know

Paul Ford:

it can be it can be stuff like that and

Rich Ziade:

People do that.

Rich Ziade:

I mean, I want, I want to, we're doing this in real time.

Rich Ziade:

We've never rehearsed this.

Rich Ziade:

You're pitching me on it.

Rich Ziade:

What's different.

Rich Ziade:

What what's different about a board versus WhatsApp where I can talk

Rich Ziade:

to my friends about a babysitter.

Paul Ford:

is a great Coordination tool because it's incredibly easy

Paul Ford:

right like just like I'm in there

Rich Ziade:

It's talking.

Paul Ford:

and I'm talking, but it is A big part of trust is accountability

Paul Ford:

and a board has a lot of accountability built in and I don't mean like workflow

Paul Ford:

We can do that We have kanban boards and you can do all that stuff with the board

Paul Ford:

But what we what we have instead is is the data there's a memory built into it

Paul Ford:

We

Rich Ziade:

have reached a point where we just assume that there

Rich Ziade:

is no power to create permanence with anything on the internet.

Rich Ziade:

So we keep tabs open, we email ourselves, ourselves.

Rich Ziade:

There's a, there's a browser add on that has like a million downloads.

Rich Ziade:

All it does, it's called SendIt, I think, or

Paul Ford:

I think, to send to you.

Rich Ziade:

All it does is email you the link you're looking

Paul Ford:

But, but if you

Rich Ziade:

to your account.

Paul Ford:

that is everybody understands that system.

Paul Ford:

Those are easy to filter.

Paul Ford:

Like it does.

Paul Ford:

That's a lot of what's good.

Paul Ford:

Yeah.

Paul Ford:

Right.

Rich Ziade:

Are there, uh, resilient is a fascinating word.

Rich Ziade:

You're saying you can trust the platform.

Rich Ziade:

Is that what you mean by resilient?

Paul Ford:

Partly the platform needs to be up and needs to be operating,

Paul Ford:

but it's for creating resilience.

Paul Ford:

So let me let, the example would be more like, so how do

Paul Ford:

you get to resilience in a.

Paul Ford:

Messy climate, chaotic world where politics are no longer

Paul Ford:

as stable as they used to

Rich Ziade:

Mm hmm.

Paul Ford:

You can go on Twitter and you can get really upset in

Paul Ford:

public and not a lot changes as a result, but you get affiliated

Paul Ford:

with certain classes of screamer.

Paul Ford:

And you can go attack the Capitol.

Paul Ford:

I mean, there's all this

Rich Ziade:

But you're not solving anything.

Paul Ford:

where, where all change that and sort of safety comes from, this

Paul Ford:

is where Lebanon's in my head a lot.

Paul Ford:

It's that small unit.

Paul Ford:

In Lebanon, it's the family.

Paul Ford:

You know, but it's like that small group of people who are like, you know what?

Paul Ford:

We gotta, I got these bags of rice and I need to get them to

Paul Ford:

hungry people in the neighborhood.

Paul Ford:

What's the tool I'm going to use?

Paul Ford:

I have to get 500 bags of rice distributed.

Rich Ziade:

Yes, you're saying that the narrower groups and the tools

Rich Ziade:

given allow for more resilience because

Paul Ford:

You're going to create, yes, you're going to create a more resilient

Paul Ford:

group if there's high trust and there are goals and there are, there is clarity.

Rich Ziade:

whereas large groups, mass media, social media is mass

Rich Ziade:

media, by the way, and everyone Wants to be heard, right?

Rich Ziade:

They love it when they get the hearts, or they get the retweets,

Rich Ziade:

or whatever it's called now.

Rich Ziade:

Um, but nothing's getting done.

Rich Ziade:

You're getting nothing done.

Rich Ziade:

You're getting maybe social acknowledgement.

Rich Ziade:

Maybe.

Paul Ford:

The number one tool that I see in your life that you use to build

Paul Ford:

resilience into your family is WhatsApp.

Paul Ford:

You're on, you're on, you're talking to people in Lebanon, you're talking

Paul Ford:

to people, you're moving money around.

Rich Ziade:

WhatsApp groups.

Paul Ford:

and you're moving money around, you're, you're, and by moving

Paul Ford:

money around, I don't mean like banking, I mean like you're saying, hey, we're

Paul Ford:

going to go to dinner here, or like, hey, I'm going to get you a hundred

Paul Ford:

bucks, or just like, there's a lot of

Rich Ziade:

a smaller trusting group.

Paul Ford:

but it has no memory, it's just an infinite scroll,

Rich Ziade:

I think that's, that's the rub.

Rich Ziade:

Which is, it's very near term.

Rich Ziade:

It's very transient.

Rich Ziade:

And I

Paul Ford:

what are we doing today, who's bringing what to the barbecue, right,

Rich Ziade:

I can't address climate change in WhatsApp.

Rich Ziade:

I can talk about it and share a link about it.

Rich Ziade:

But if I really, like, let's say I had a business that is like, yeah.

Paul Ford:

I can talk I really, like,

Rich Ziade:

that's what you're talking about here,

Paul Ford:

For my wife and I to get solar in Brooklyn because of various

Paul Ford:

like regulations was a 12 month process was a disaster and now our

Paul Ford:

electric bills 20 bucks a month.

Paul Ford:

Hey, you know pretty cool But but like yeah, the conversation and the

Paul Ford:

structure around that was just kind of ongoing and it fell to my wife

Rich Ziade:

Let me, let me take it full circle here for a second, you know, our

Rich Ziade:

tagline, which was, you know, mocked by a good friend of ours who we trust,

Rich Ziade:

collect, organize, collaborate, um, is like things you can do with the thing,

Rich Ziade:

which isn't very good as a tagline.

Rich Ziade:

It's very descriptive.

Rich Ziade:

It's my tie.

Rich Ziade:

I came up with it.

Rich Ziade:

It's not

Paul Ford:

We're wrestling with all that.

Paul Ford:

You go to Notion and it's just like, It's Wiki, it's a document manager.

Paul Ford:

They're about like, Hey, we smooshed it all together.

Rich Ziade:

What you're saying here is that chat, um, And open tabs doesn't

Rich Ziade:

scale up to bigger things that you're trying to get done and that the platform

Rich Ziade:

here allows you to create structure to create mechanisms of accountability so

Rich Ziade:

that you can do bigger things like yes, you can use chat to decide on pizza

Rich Ziade:

for tonight, but that's transient.

Rich Ziade:

It's gonna move on and you'll never think about it again.

Rich Ziade:

You don't need that log, right?

Rich Ziade:

You just you all coordinated

Paul Ford:

can use chat to eat the pizza and then it's done.

Rich Ziade:

exactly.

Rich Ziade:

But here's where it breaks where it breaks down is.

Rich Ziade:

Let's pick something not as ambitious as climate a wedding like the the the level

Rich Ziade:

of orchestration and collaboration and frankly Knowledge gathering which probably

Rich Ziade:

happens in some insane way in like I guess your browser or use heart stuff and you

Paul Ford:

It does or you use the not or whatever, but there's always this

Paul Ford:

responsibility what happens in the wedding is there's always one party

Paul Ford:

usually the bride who does all the work.

Paul Ford:

And then kind of informs the husband.

Paul Ford:

I don't think we're going to change that dynamic necessarily

Paul Ford:

but at least the husband would have less excuse to be uninformed.

Rich Ziade:

think, I think the bride is relying on a bunch of other people, the

Rich Ziade:

husband and the, the, the, the bride and groom are relying on a bunch of

Rich Ziade:

other people, it's a mess today, it's a sloppy mess, these are dynamics that

Rich Ziade:

are, that you find when you hire an agency to do your branding, when you hire

Rich Ziade:

a, a personal trainer to, to help you achieve, train for a marathon, these are

Rich Ziade:

dynamics today that happen in production.

Rich Ziade:

Straight up what are classic communication platforms, but there's more to

Paul Ford:

You know what would make me feel really good is when the bride

Paul Ford:

says, This was really helpful for us.

Paul Ford:

And actually, we skipped so many fights.

Paul Ford:

Because you know what that marriage is now?

Paul Ford:

It's more resilient.

Paul Ford:

They have a tool that they use to communicate.

Paul Ford:

And that makes a better fundamental relationship between individuals.

Paul Ford:

And now they can do more in their marriage.

Rich Ziade:

a board fix your marriage?

Paul Ford:

Yes.

Paul Ford:

That's what I'm landing

Rich Ziade:

This is the marketing I was looking

Paul Ford:

That's the new headline.

Paul Ford:

Fix your marriage

Rich Ziade:

a board.

Rich Ziade:

Yeah.

Rich Ziade:

Um, I like this.

Rich Ziade:

I I

Paul Ford:

let's be real.

Paul Ford:

Like it's not, doesn't mean that you're going to go to a board.

Paul Ford:

com and it's going to say resilience.

Rich Ziade:

No, yeah.

Rich Ziade:

No, I I look I think I think the world feels very chaotic.

Rich Ziade:

I don't, and I think it's always been chaotic.

Rich Ziade:

It's just, we get to peer into it.

Rich Ziade:

Like now there's like no anesthesia anymore.

Paul Ford:

Oh, no.

Paul Ford:

You,

Rich Ziade:

guts everywhere.

Paul Ford:

see the whole thing.

Paul Ford:

It is wild.

Rich Ziade:

and I think, you know, what we're, we're

Paul Ford:

that

Rich Ziade:

here and by the way, that could, we're creating something that.

Rich Ziade:

For calmer more productive places for people to interact and get things

Rich Ziade:

done and that could be a Company

Paul Ford:

Yeah.

Rich Ziade:

a team inside of an organization could be a family

Rich Ziade:

planning a trip It doesn't really matter and this is sounding pitchy

Rich Ziade:

But it's genuinely where we're

Paul Ford:

this is the goal.

Paul Ford:

The goal is to take anyone who, to, to increase resilience

Paul Ford:

inside of organizations.

Paul Ford:

That's how I'm putting it forward.

Paul Ford:

And like, we,

Rich Ziade:

It could be you and your extended

Paul Ford:

yeah.

Paul Ford:

And I mean, what does that mean?

Paul Ford:

It means we were, we trust each other more.

Paul Ford:

We got a lot done.

Paul Ford:

We felt that we were accountable to each other and we feel better

Paul Ford:

about going into the next thing.

Paul Ford:

Can software really do that?

Paul Ford:

No, but it can get out of the way.

Paul Ford:

So the humans can build those relationships themselves.

Rich Ziade:

love to, I want to drive the next podcast we record

Rich Ziade:

and talk about software getting out of the way and how hard it is

Rich Ziade:

to make software that gets out of

Paul Ford:

Boy, is it?

Paul Ford:

Well, we should, we should record that podcast really soon.

Rich Ziade:

we should.

Rich Ziade:

Who sponsored this podcast,

Paul Ford:

Well, this is where it sounds intensely hypocritical, but a deeply

Paul Ford:

resilient piece of software that will help you and your team become more resilient.

Paul Ford:

It's called a board, a board.

Paul Ford:

com.

Paul Ford:

Uh, DM if you'd like early access and we'll get you in there.

Paul Ford:

Our board is for, um, collecting data, including or adding your own data.

Paul Ford:

Organizing it.

Paul Ford:

It is a hell of a platform.

Paul Ford:

It is pretty and cool and we love it.

Paul Ford:

We're excited to get out in the world.

Paul Ford:

It's coming.

Paul Ford:

It's coming real soon now and uh, Check it out and check us out on twitter

Paul Ford:

at ziottiford and send us an email.

Paul Ford:

Hello at ziottiford.

Paul Ford:

com We are your podcast advisors here to help and help you get more

Paul Ford:

resilient anything else rich No,

Rich Ziade:

No,

Paul Ford:

all

Rich Ziade:

let's make the world more resilient.

Paul Ford:

it.

Paul Ford:

Let's do it.

Paul Ford:

All

Rich Ziade:

Have a great

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