Giles tells us about life as an early stage investor in brands like BEAR, Pip & Nut, Bio & Me as well as stories from the likes of Vita Coco & Innocent where he played leading roles and which have gone on to become huge success storiesWe also chat about the reality of the food & beverages market, his current projects and how he picks them. Giles also proposes to add current company valuations and greenwashing to the big bin of bullshit.

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businesswithoutbullshit.me

Ah.

Ready?

You haven't throat cleared.

I, I've been trying badly See a little early in the day for Hello For Throat Clear, isn't it?

I am.

Hello and welcome to Business Without Bullshit.

I'm Andy Boian, alongside me as my co-host, Pippa Stud.

Hi Andy.

Little more Enthusi.

Hi Andy.

Thanks Pip.

And today we are joined by Charles Brook.

Charles is a renowned serial startup ceo, entrepreneur, and investor, and has been a leading factor behind the success of flagship brands such as Innocent Bear, Vita Coco, and Pip Nut.

Hello Charles.

Welcome to the podcast.

How you doing?

Thank you guys.

Thank you for having me here.

Absolute pleasure.

Nice to see you.

So we'd like to start with, um, a question which is, you know, what's keeping you up at night?

What's keeping me up at night?

Probably raising money at the moment is probably what's keeping me up at night.

At the moment.

Majority of what I do is in early stage fledging startups.

Predominantly in consumer goods, but a few things more tech-based and the funding environment is pretty brutal.

Yeah.

Tell me, and then you chuck in stuff like Silicon Valley stroke, credit, Swiss, and all that sort of stuff, and it becomes even more unstable.

Do you think FMCG is harder than, well, I would say it's harder than tech.

But is it harder than a lot of things to raise for?

I mean, I think, look, food and drink for me is if you go through, you know, all the challenges we've had globally, I think food and drink is typically about the resilience you can get.

And it's an industry I've been in all my life and I'm, I'm blessed that I'm in that industry compared to, you know, what I people need to eat.

Exactly.

And the seems it's quite a fun industry too.

It's full of quite fun for you.

It's, it should be more fun.

Do you know what I, this is the whole thing for me.

Just, I think it needs to be more fun.

You know, going into retailers and getting beaten up for death, it's like, come on guys, just have a bit of fun.

Tell me what you need, what I need, and let's just have a chat about it, you know?

And who are you raising money for at the moment?

Is there someone specific?

Ooh, various.

So we've got a few bits and pieces going on.

So I'm a non-exec on the Cheeky Panda, which is an eco household brand.

So we're just raising on that at the moment.

Really lovely young founder called Rachel on a brand called Fern and Rosie, which is Jam.

Uh, we're actually already.

Got the target mount.

We're trying to overfund that at the moment.

So that's been going Ember, which is a meat snacking brand.

We're just about to raise on that.

Just closed around on pip nut nut butter spreads.

So it's probably easy for me to answer it and say probably most of them.

So when, when, when you say you, what, what are you, are you a, a one man army?

Are you So I'm, I'm a little bit of a eclectic mix of, I do everything between, I'm lead investor on a number of businesses.

I've got just over a dozen interests.

I'm lead investor on most of those.

On a couple of those.

I'm like a non-exec.

Or chairman and then there's one or two businesses that I've started with somebody else and we've just put somebody in to run them.

But I think, I think you can't help yourself in terms of getting involved.

I'm quite different.

Yeah.

I'm like, you know, I hate being called a high net worth and stuff like that because you know, a solar business actually filler helped on a transaction.

And one of the businesses that that we sold, which was Urban Fresh Foods, which had the Bear, which is the kid snacking brand.

I mean, look, right?

I am one of these people.

I'm either in a business or not in a business.

I'm not a non-exec who's gonna turn up to a meeting and try and say a couple of clever things and then disappear for three months.

So if there's a problem with the manufacturer, I'll jump on a flight and I'll go and speak, see that manufacturer and try and help it with, you know, with, with, with, with whoever the brand owner is.

And it's because I enjoy what I do.

Right.

And that's, that's my whole philosophy, which is I only, you know, I do what I do cause I really enjoy it.

It's not about the monetary side at all, which some people will always smirk and laugh at.

I do it because, you know, I love doing it.

And you know, also I love upsetting the big corporates and the big F N C G brands with.

Challenger startup, you know, kind of insurgent brands and you know, I'll always do it.

And you know, it's been my life, I guess, for the last whatever it is, 28 years.

Um, but I'm never gonna retire because I just enjoy what I do.

So how do you pick them?

Is it about the product?

Is it like, I really like this product, I'd buy it myself?

It seems to be about the name so far.

Yeah, well it's, it's, it's very, no, it's pretty packaging.

No, it's, I mean, look, it's, it's, it's various things.

I mean, you, you, you can kind of see macro trends and, you know, if you look before I got involved with, with Vito Coco, and I was actually approached by Vito Coco.

You know, I could see what was going on with coconut water in the US and therefore it made sense to do that.

Even though everybody thought I was absolutely mad.

I remember the Waitress's buyer literally saying, yeah, I'll list it.

We'll put it in 180 stores or branches as they call them.

And the meeting stopped and she just literally put a pad down and went, are you effing?

Seriously?

What are you doing?

You're going madly, you with innocent?

What are you doing?

You know, Coca buying them.

Stay where you are, what you're doing and Wow.

And you know, yet that became one of the big success stories in beverages and you know, that business floated on the Nasdaq.

Well, I think it was the kind of.

The first sort of coconut water that people knew about in the uk There were Oh, kinda weird.

Cuz I've been drinking coconut water a long time and they used to only sell it in cans.

Yeah, you'd buy these cans and then have lumps.

That's right.

Coconut there, which is full of sugar undeclared ingredients.

Yeah.

There was a nice brand that came in a bottle that was quite a heavy bottle.

Like a glass jacks, I think.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Which was really nice.

But it kind of felt like it was really expensive for, it was like, yeah, but I thought Vita Coco and all these things tasted great.

My wife from Trinidad had grew up on real coconut.

She spits it out.

She's just like, oh, exactly.

I mean, that, that was the biggest mal marketing conundrum because on Vita Coco, We actually, for those people who rejected it first time round, over 60%, when we gave him a second taste, would actually say, actually, I really like this now.

So that was all about how we got it a second time, but also what we learned, and you know, Michael's, the mike, who's one of the founders, and I laugh because we actually launched another iteration of, of, of the pure coconut water, but just adding a bit more puree in it.

So it literally purely had a bit more flesh in it and it made it taste more like a pina colada.

Oh my god.

Yeah, exactly.

Went, went through the roof and we laughed and said if we'd actually started with that one in the first place, you know, it would probably be double trouble the size what it is today.

You said that food and drink are one of the most resilient businesses.

Is that because it's such a tough market in the UK or.

I think, I think it comes down to other things, which is there's always going to be a level of base demand that's never gonna go away.

Right.

And I think whereas people will stop buying certain things with food and drink, consumers typically go, so therefore, in just leaner or more difficult times, you've just got to basically ensure consumers see ongoing value or a reason to continue to buy.

And actually that's pretty, you know, right now actually.

Covid was very, was was very tough, but actually a lot of food and drink brands did incredibly well because guess what?

There was a return to the traditional breakfast people having evening meals back together again.

So course there was a lot more in-home consumption.

So therefore, those brands which had what you call take home or covered items did really well.

But obviously the.

The, the brands that only had like on the go impulse suffered because obviously people weren't commuting and stuff.

It felt like, um, a while ago when I was sort of looking at supermarkets that, that the supermarket's own brand was taken over and that there was this sort of sense people were getting scared.

I remember that there was, there was, there was stuff in the press.

It was like, you know, Hz couldn't get tomato ketchup listed and stuff like this.

You know, and you Has that changed now with private label?

I think what you're actually seeing is actually, typically private label's kind of been pretty stable, but actually in the last 12 to 18 months, we've obviously particularly.

You know, the economic climate at the moment, you're actually seeing a bit more resurgence on private label because a lot of consumers obviously trying to, you know, kind of limit spend in the supermarkets.

They're kind of down trading to to, to private labels.

So private label's not cheaper though, is it?

Uh, it typically will be, yeah.

Will it?

Yeah.

Their own brand.

Yeah.

Well, so private, I thought that the whole thing of the private label is own brand.

Oh, sorry.

This is, this is, uh, rubbish terminology, but yes.

So base own label or private label is obviously cheaper.

So some people on certain products are trading down at the moment.

We're seeing that in the data.

And just from somebody who's kind of a brand custodian, all I'm making sure with my various founders is that we are offering the right level to level of value at the moment.

That means that the consumers are staying with those brands and that's, that's what we're doing.

But it's, I mean, the other thing for me as well is that you talked a little bit about, you know, everybody being at the mercy of the supermarkets and also.

You know, private label, you know, kind of dictating everything.

One thing that really annoys me in the industry is that the amount of founders I see who've got a significantly established business in the supermarkets, but yet will still bitch and moan about how the supermarket treat them.

And I just sit there and go, do you know what?

You're lucky you've got a business.

You are so fortunate to be in the scale of those sort of businesses.

They've made so many different people's businesses.

Stop moaning about it.

Get on with it.

The course of the negotiations are gonna be hard.

These guys have got shareholders, they've got, you know, their own targets.

They wanna be the cheapest retailer in the uk.

They are under massive pressure.

Get your head around it and deal with it.

Yeah, I, I feel the same.

We had a argument recently cuz I feel that about the music industry, something I know a little bit about and it's like, you know, people are always blaming their labels or spot, it's like, it's just the system.

Yeah.

You say it's vicious.

I know.

I mean, look at what the supermarkets are dealing with.

It's cutthroat, you know, it's, it's tiny margins and they've gotta do what they've gotta do.

And all of these brands that you know, all of them actually know and a lot of them are household names, but you.

It's that a thing I was taught years back.

This, uh, when you go and buy something, you go into the shop and you say, I need some pasta.

And then you go to the shelf for the pasta and then you pick it up and this emotional thing happens and they actually, now they would study, you know, that it is the gut, it is this like whole.

Does this feel right?

You know, is this something on the packaging, which is very UNT Italian or very, you know, they're suddenly putting me off.

Yeah.

And your products have always, you know, you've always been involved in products that, you know, speak to you a lot like them.

When you say bear, I can think of it, you know, it's also my nickname, but, you know, is it, yeah.

I won't ask why.

Well, quite, um, yeah, but you know, when you're saying I can offer a bit more, I mean, a lot of it comes down to that, isn't it?

That I'm just, I'm, I'm looking interesting and I talk visual.

Visual appeal's a big thing and I'm.

People get involved in different brands.

I've always kind of lend tended to gravitate towards emotionally driven and emotionally connecting brands.

Cause I want, I think products are not about delivering something that's great.

Tasting products today are about delivering something that brings a wider experience.

And one of the big things to me as well is I, I'm big believer in vibrancy.

So for example, you talked about Bear.

If you look at something like Bio Me, which is a gut health brand, really strong Pantone colors, really distinctive on the fixture.

And you know, really stand out.

Yeah.

Consumers are, gravitate towards it and you know, that's what it's all about for me.

I think people, a lot of people miss that.

Is that, You know, you can spend a fortune of marketing dollars, but first of all, get your packaging right and, you know, make it as appealing as possible on

the fixture, because that's worth more than spending a lot of money on a big marketing campaign is the uk you know, starting to, to make more of its own food.

I mean, you know, obviously this really weird Brexit moment cut off Europe and you know, our, you know, back in the day, all used to come from Australia and New Zealand and they've got their free trade and they're gonna start putting it in, but.

I have no sense of it where, how much the UK produces or not.

Oh, this is, I dunno how you answer that question in a succinct way, but I think it's, we all aspire to basically be as self-sufficient and to nurture and, and, and to kind of provide products that are locally, regionally sourced, whatever in the uk, et cetera.

And we try and do our utmost, the reality is that the strength of our economy, Our workforce levels, our yield levels are somewhat behind other, you know, other countries, you know,

whether we like it or not, other countries can manufacture and produce goods at a cheaper cost of goods, including bringing them in in through shipping into the UK than we can.

And there's a fundamental issue there, something the government's never got its head round or addressed properly that it needs to be looked at.

But the other way, you know, I look at this as well, is that, People just needed to see businesses being cyclical.

And I think, for example, a number of my businesses, we actually have multiple manufacturing capability, both within the UK and outside of the UK.

Because you know, if currency massively moved against us or else, for example, you know, the shipping rates went from.

$1,800 up to as, as high as eight, you know, $18,000 last year.

It means that if you've got, you know, a, you know, a manufacturing base, which is both domestic and overseas, you can try and mitigate some of those fluctuations and variations as best possible.

And that's probably what, you know, we talked about via Coco earlier.

The number one reason why Vita Coco was successful for me was that cuz at one point you were telling supermarkets and US retailers, et cetera, how many cases we're gonna get because the demand was bigger than the supply.

But the best thing that that Vita Cocoa did was that we set up a whole global.

Uh, manufacturing, um, setup.

We worked with only the best manufacturers.

We got exclusivity at those sites, and it meant that we had the flexibility to basically provide product from all rounds.

So whether it was, you know, if, if the Asia was accept, you know, was, was affected by tsunamis or, or other climate issues, or else the currencies, you know, had, had moved or, or you know, whatever.

You don't have to.

Sign up to a minimum supply.

Yeah, you did.

You did.

And we actually, we, we also invested a lot of money into those sites as well to help them because beforehand they weren't doing coconut water.

We had to make modifications to production lines, and we actually lent them money to do that.

Um, okay.

But that gave us flexibility.

It's also a lot less costly than.

Setting your, setting up your own manufacturing.

That's mad cross bordered lending.

You like literally lending the money.

Yep.

And then, and they've all paid back or you know, so yeah, some have paid back, some is an ongoing agreement.

They're all structured in, in a slightly different way based on what was the right thing with the Pacific, you know, the Pacific Manufacturing partner in whichever regional country it was in.

But trying to build resilience basically.

Yeah.

And that's it.

And that flexibility so that you can pivot when you need to.

It's great to hear you're a lead investor.

It's always hard to find the lead and I imagine, you know, your name carries some weight, so it's sort of you, you've got that unen unable job that occasionally you'll get it wrong and everyone will be like, you know, oh, you know.

Yeah.

Do you, have you, is there a time recently you feel you've got it wrong or anything, or, um, I mean, look, I would say depends how you look at it.

Because like, let's just say I've got 12 investments, right?

Because I go in at really early stage investments, sometime concept only, or else first raise levels.

Oh, you're going way, I go really early, really early.

Like, oh wow, first investor.

There are, there aren't many of me around actually, um, who, who do what I do.

Most people like to see it get to a certain level and then, then come in.

So, you know, for example, the innocent boys with jam jar.

So I, I do that and you know, people have to have a view that says, look, you only need one or two of those to be successful.

But I've set myself a thing saying, look, Of those 12, let's say.

I want to see at least six come to fruition because that's personally what I think, you know, I'm getting involved in the business and I look at the ones that I've gone into.

I believe at least six of those can come, you know, to fruition.

I've been lucky so far cuz bear, you know, Vida Coco's floated on the Nasdaq, so Ken to Kensington, which is a US condiment brand that's sold that's, that's sold down Vida Coco was a British company, was it?

But, so I set up the European division of Vito Coco, the parrot companies in New York.

Mike, Mike, and Ira.

Yeah, he's the, the Red Hot Chili Peppers or someone, one of them is involved, oh, sorry.

Anthony kk Yeah.

Was in, came in alongside Madonna, Matthew McConaughey and all that sort of lot.

Yeah.

I always love the ones that have celebrity investors, because I've got a few clients who have celebrity investors.

I can't pick them out of a line.

I know, but here's the thing, right?

Is that the, we also had Rihanna as well, and they all went into the photo shoot in Rihanna on, on a Caribbean island.

Guess I didn't get the invite.

Didn't get the nod.

Me?

No, no, no Invite.

As E I s and S E I s.

Has that been, you know, a big part of your, or helped a lot for you?

Yeah, majority.

Majority of what I do is under E i s or S E I s.

Yeah.

It's a good relief.

Yeah, it's good.

It works very well.

You know, I think it's, it's, you know, particularly under current government, hopefully next government, it needs to continue because if those sort of schemes go.

Basically investors are gonna not, uh, they're gonna fourth, literally fourthly, the fourth.

My friend is obviously very keen on, uh, the LA labor governor, but if someone gets rid of s e i s, I gonna, why do you think labor are gonna get rid of s No, I don't.

They are, I don't think, I think you'd be fucking bonkers.

I know, you know?

Yeah.

These, these schemes are there for the right reasons and speaking as a lawyer, I really like them because, Because they're so attractive.

There are a lot of rules, and if you get it wrong, you get it badly wrong.

Yeah.

And you need a lawyer to do it.

So from my point of view, I'm like, you love it.

Is there any sort of good advice you'd, you'd give to someone if, well, I guess if, if they, if they wanted to approach you or, you know, were, were, were trying to sort of had a business they were starting.

Is there any sort of like top tip you give them?

I mean, look right.

I have no issue with anybody reaching out to me.

It's just about being succinct and just being really clear about what the opportunity is and what it looks like, and I can assess it really quickly.

Um, I'm a big believer in persistence, but also if you're getting a, if, if I say no to somebody, it means no.

And I, a lot of people I do, I do appreciate it, but we'll carry on and carry on and carry on and tell me what I've missed and stuff like that.

And, I don't always get it right.

Um, but I'll always give people the time of day and quite often people approach me and I just say, I won't invest in it.

But look, I'll jump on the call, uh, with them and give 'em half an hour, 45 minutes of my time just to run through the business plan and stuff like that.

And that's given them a lot actually.

Yeah.

Do you know, it's just about me, Curtis, cuz you know, don't forget, for years back I was in their position doing what they're doing and stuff like that.

So I've been there and it is, it is.

You know, it's, it's very hard.

And I think the biggest thing I still see today though, is I don't think people still put enough effort into.

You know, trying to make themselves look different and differentiated and why this is particularly good.

And, you know, I've seen it so many times where a category's exploding and they'll come to me with a brand that's trying to surf on the back of a category, but I'm like, well, what is it about your Pacific product or brand that makes it different?

And they just can't answer it strong enough.

And I'm just like, I'm done.

But the, the number one reason I invest in people is, Whilst obviously the product in the category is, you know, incredibly important, it's the founder.

If I don't connect with the founder, I won't invest.

It could be the best opportunity ever and I won't, you know, I won't give any names, but something that's gone on for a meter, it rise in, in, in the meat alternatives and I'm really pleased that they've gone on.

But there's, I could not connect with that founder and I was not interested and they got really, ay cuz I wouldn't get involved with it.

And so William, blah blah.

And I just, you know, Part, part how you're acting is why I don't wanna get involved in this.

I think I can guess which business this is, but I'll give it a go afterwards.

There's certain people, people who are bright, very humble.

Listen, a lot are really important to me.

People who talk at me.

You know, just to cut across me, you know, tell me I'm wrong and what's right when they've asked me to come in to meet them.

And I'm just like, that just doesn't work for me.

I think the, the other big thing I've learned as well, just, you know, talks about advice for, you know, business owners who are looking to raise money and look at

partners, is that also find a partner, investment partner who has a good balance of behaviors in both the good and bad times, because that's what I've also learned as well.

And in fact, you know, again, it's.

Easy example for me to look, but if I look at Vita Coco, we had a main backer, which was Verlin Best, uh, which is the Stellar Inn Hauser Bush family.

And we had some amazing times at Vi Coco, but we also had some very stressful and challenging times with massive litigation.

As I mentioned to you earlier, I always remember Eric, who was, you know, headed up the fund at the time and he came in and, you know, and literally that meeting everybody was literally ash and face.

And he said, look, it's really simple, right?

Whatever happens, we're gonna get through this.

Tell me what we need to do.

How much money's gonna cost, and we'll find a way through this.

And literally, I know that probably nine of the 10 of the institutional investors would've been literally losing the plot going ballistic and just, you know, threatening, you know, seeing what, what they've got in the, in the contract, which means that they could potentially, you know, kind of.

Utilize the device isn't.

It's not.

And I think that having those balanced behaviors is, is a massive thing.

And if I'm, if I'm raising today, I will say, try and find a partner who does that.

You know, be honest.

I a couple of times I've not got it right.

Um, but that's one thing I'm acutely aware of today, where I'm just always trying to make sure that I can be as supportive and as consistent behavior wise and in, in, in both when they have great news, but also wanna get lots of great news.

But I do think with VCs, I think a red flag for a VC is when you know a founder, cuz I'm normally asking for the founders comes to me and says, a founder vc.

The next line is they're not like other VCs and they, you know, they just, yes.

And they really, they really love us and agree with.

Everything we say, and I sort of think if at the start of the relationship you are not being honest enough to like challenge and push back on stuff, even like on valuation

or wherever it is that you might probably, yeah, they're the ones that six months later I'm being called by the founder saying they're shouting at me in meetings and.

You know, getting up in my face and I hate them.

How do I get rid of it?

I wanna recut the deal, et cetera.

Yeah, see it, see it time, time again.

And it's difficult.

And I, you know, again, the owners also come back to the founders sometimes, and I just, I only have what mind, I have several things to say to the founders, but one of the biggest things I say to all 'em, I say, look, I'm good with whatever happens, if it's smic or if it's brilliant.

The only thing I ask for is no surprises yet.

So if something's really not going very well, Just come and talk to me and we'll sort it out.

Yeah.

It's when I find out through somebody else, or literally at the 11th hour when it is there a problem.

That's the only time I might get a bit agitated and go, okay, we should discuss this earlier.

That's the only bit.

So, you know, founder has responsibility as well in that, in that equation.

Yeah.

I think you said some interesting things there.

You, you, you know, to approach, you come with your best clearest message first because you want to evaluate it quickly and then you, if you say you, you don't want them coming back saying, oh, I forgot to tell you something.

It's like, well, tell me it now, you know?

And I'll say yes or no.

I don't have time to spend my life picking up the stones again, sort of thing, you know?

And I think, I think that loving people when they're in the bad times, I mean, I think that's a really important job.

It was actually a piece of advice given to my dad when we, we started a hedge fund and someone said to me, with people running in the city, you gotta love them when it's bad.

When the, when the times are tough.

That's what they need.

Yeah.

And they same, you know, it's, they're all similar, aren't they?

When that, when that business is going really badly.

For someone with a bit of wisdom and you, you don't have any, but you know, maybe you do.

Yeah.

Gray hair, you know, it's like I'm pretty old.

I'll be through the, I'll be around the block a few times now.

Yes.

No, but for someone to come along and say, yeah, we'll get through this, you know, it's, it's, there are, there are problems that you can't solve, but, you know, not many of them in business, do you know what I mean?

It's gotta be through.

It got pretty cat.

You've gotta sort of, something massive has gotta happen that's sort of, you know, like, you know, they make your ingredient illegal or something, and you're like, oh, oh, fucking, we're stuck now, you know?

And now a quick word from our sponsor, business Without Bullshit is brought to you by Ari Clark, straight Talking Financial and legal advice since 1935.

You can find us@ariclark.com.

Is there anything that you think is bullshit in business?

God, where'd you start?

Um, two main things, and I mentioned one earlier for me at the moment, bullshitting business, just ridiculous.

Valuations are driving me mad.

I'm still seeing it the whole time.

Now, typically a lot of these people will go to the one of the crowd platforms to try and do it as well.

It's just people who just, you know, and businesses like, nor to maybe 2 million.

I get aggressive evaluations there because actually you're kind of still investing a level where there's a lot of future potential, um, and particularly those ones that are promising.

But I see businesses at five, 10 million.

Raising off eight to 15 times revenue.

And I'm going, you can't be absolutely mad.

Oh no.

But this is the biggest growth area.

This is gonna become the next big.

And you know, to be fair, they're convincing investors, but I would say that every one of, let's just say I've seen a hundred of those over the last few years.

I would say at least 70 of those are having to basically manage very.

Disappointing investors, or else even worse, are trying to manage down rounds.

I'm seeing a lot of down rounds at the moment and unfortunately the wheels come off at some points.

You've gotta be careful to, and again, it's all for me.

Don't be greedy.

You don't need to be greedy.

A V C.

Now remember him explaining years back to me, valuation doesn't matter that much.

And I was like, what do you mean valuation doesn't matter that much to vc?

And he said, well, you know, we'll say there's a fund with 10, 10 investments in it.

You know, four will fail.

Two might do.

Okay.

Two might do a bit better, but one, hopefully it's let the music industry again, one will be a hit and that'll be such a big hit.

Yeah.

You know, a hundred x it means the valuation doesn't matter that much.

Exactly.

Everybody wants that unicorn, right?

Yeah, I think, and do you know what?

I don't want that unicorn.

It sounds really weird, like, I invest with some other people, and I've also been offered to get involved in stuff where people literally want to go for that.

They want that.

I mean, to be fair, you've been involved in some businesses that have done pretty well, man.

I have.

Yeah, and I'm, I've been very lucky on that.

But if you ask me today, I'm more interested in stuff that goes.

No to a hundred million and that's me done.

I'm happy and, and done with that because it, I just find that space more exciting.

I'm amazed you go up to a hundred million.

I mean, it's when you've got the board and everyone's, you know, it's a sort of, yeah, it's just, the unicorn thing is just different cuz it's just like this

high octane models where there's just money being thrown and it's just, and don't get me wrong, I, I massively admire people to do it, but that's not my space.

I'm like, if you said there's a, there's a low, medium or high road, I'm the medium road investor.

I'm like, person, don't go and spend.

10 million pounds of marketing campaign.

I'll give you half a million, run it in a region, show me it works, and then I'll give you the money, then spend on it more, and I build, build it in a much more logical And, and what would Vico could be worth now?

Is that worth billions?

Um, so it's actually, I mean, to be fair, yeah, it's, I mean, you can see it's public domain now.

So if I looked at the valuation this morning, it is 1.01 billion today.

Wow.

But, but trading at around about two, two and a half times revenue, so sensible.

Right.

So valuations is one of the bullshit things.

What's the other said?

There were two.

The other one for me is greenwashing.

I again, you know, as you get a little bit old, you get a little bit, uh, cynical and certain things I just, I've just watched over the last three years, so many companies just try and jump on the eco need to be more ethical, sustainable, be cool business, anybody.

I've gotta come onto that second year.

I'm gotta come onto that second and just jump onto it because, oh, we'll get a better valuation for the business.

Or, you know, you know, it's what shareholders need, et cetera.

And I'm just seeing a lot of greenwashing going on between.

How people are positioning yourself, actually truly how environmental, how much adverse impact they're having on, on the environment.

And also some of the numbers that are coming out in terms of, you know, the carbon emissions and stuff like that.

And also the targets, they're not gonna get hit.

And it, it is madness.

And I think for me, two years ago there was a benchmark in the industry, which is called B Corp, which if you wanted to be a business that is balanced purpose with profit and be a business that's all about doing good, B Corp was absolutely that, that accreditation.

Um, That everybody aspire to.

And it was very difficult to get to the issue you have today.

And I think this is where B Corp needs to be really careful is that there are so many businesses that I don't believe should be accredited, that have been accredited because they know how to work the scoring system.

They know what difference to make change, to make the articles and stuff like that, to do that.

And there are people you can hire to tell you exactly and people exactly how, I dunno what it is now, but it used to be the magic eighties used to be the score he used to have to, it might even still be that eighties score.

And I'm just seeing it the whole time and I think the whole thing's gonna come falling down because.

You know, you're seeing some pretty, I would call sustainable environmentally and corporate socially ugly companies getting accreditation when they know where you shouldn't, but they know how to work the

system and I think B Corp have really got to sit back and go, right, let's look at our criteria, because it should be very, very difficult to be get that B Corp and maintain that B Corp accreditation.

Otherwise it's gonna lose credibility.

And I, I think it's really important because it's the one.

Metric, which covers so many different things, you know, across, you know, morals, values, social, environmental, you know, economic conditions or factors.

And it's such a great tool, but they need to basically, Take a look again and just really now refine down some of, some of, some of some of some of the assessment measurement criteria.

It's almost someone needs to stop looking at it as a numbers thing and step back and look at it.

Yeah.

Because otherwise everybody's just getting it.

It's like, it's literally it'll B cor, like a, yeah.

Rubber town.

B Corp.

Yeah.

And of course we all don't be wrong, we all want as many companies on there, but.

I think they need to set the bar higher on it.

Okay.

Okay.

So Charles, this is called the Five Second Rules.

We're gonna do quick questions, five to 10 seconds, uh, per answer just to get to know you a little better.

Deeky the music.

Okay, we ready?

What was your first job?

United Biscuits sales rep.

Cliff, where are you Really?

KBIs That is, if people dunno what United Biscuits are, um, what was your worst job?

Well, first job probably working in my holidays in the next retail store, standing on my feet all day.

Bored to death.

Badly paid too.

I couldn't believe what they get paid yet.

Bored back.

Yeah.

Bored.

Favorite subjects at school?

Uh, design technology.

I'm always kinda like to be creative and make things and do bits and pieces.

Ah, what did you wanna be when you grew up?

I'm doing it what I'm doing now.

You know, I always wanted to work in food and drink.

I went at my university degree, was in food and drink.

In fact, I'm lying a little bit there.

Actually, the one bit I didn't want to be, when I grew up, I always said I was never gonna be in sales.

I wanted to be a marketer, I wanted to be creative.

I wanted, you know, I was a brand manager at one point and then, uh, Coca-Cola that made me go and do a sales role.

And I literally went through, through gritted teeth and I fell in love with it.

And I did.

Literally 70% of what I've done has been selling and beam in commercial roles ever since.

Oh really?

Yeah.

Wow.

Uh, what did your parents want you to be?

Uh, they basically, no disrespect, but kind of lawyer, accountant.

Yeah.

Something like this.

All that stuff.

You have questions, just we're all happy with that.

Um, what's your go to karaoke song?

Uh, so I hate karaoke, so therefore my go to karaoke song is one called Tequila, you know, tequila, guess how many words in it?

One word.

Tequila.

That's it.

It's a very easy one to do.

That's a good one.

Somebody else actually I Meat love somebody else.

Wow, that's brilliant.

Um, office dogs, business or bullshit?

Uh, definitely business.

Excellent.

Where is he?

Where is he?

We have one around area.

Gone somewhere, don't we?

Yeah.

Have you ever been fired?

No.

Not yet.

Still time.

Still time?

Yeah.

Maybe.

Dunno dunno.

I'm actually unemployable today.

I work, you know, I, I don't work for anybody.

Does such, I do a little bit on the non exec stuff, but no, I've, I've never been fired.

But you, you never know.

And what's your vice?

I've got a couple of vices.

Um, you can actually tell us or leave us to guess.

Yes, you can guess.

I dunno, I dunno.

Advice quite healthy, so they be sports.

No, that's a, that's like, you know, what's your advice?

I'm just too, do you want my, not my good advice or my bad advice?

Which one?

No, both of them.

I, I guess my.

Bad advice is just, I just, I'm always in a rush.

I always wanna get things done.

I've just gotta realizing that everybody's in the same mm-hmm.

Always me sometimes.

So I just need to be more patient with certain things.

And so, like somebody comes in and starts presenting a hundred, a hundred page, I'll be like, oh man.

Right.

I just need to know five things.

Just tell me five things I need to know and then I'll look at it later.

I just can't, I'm not, I just, Disney need headlines.

I, I, yeah, that sounds, uh, yeah.

Sounds like you might be on the hds.

Uh, yeah.

Uh, probably, yeah, right.

I, right on the edge side just for my new hiphop crew, which is the hgs, which I'm particularly pleased with.

You know, my special skill will definitely be, if I speak to other people, is that, I can kind of, my mind works very quickly and I can move very quickly to what I think we need to get to.

So like what people procrastinate for an hour, but I'll like, so you cut three minutes, seconds, five, 10 minutes.

I can be like, boom, right.

Let's do X, Y, and z.

Pretty good in giving direction on that sort of thing.

I'm led to believe.

Anyway.

Very good.

Uh, there we go.

Yeah.

I guess if people wanna find you, where do they go?

Yeah, so if you wanna get a hold of me, uh, you'll see me as Giles Brook and LinkedIn, or else on, uh, Instagram.

It's Whitespace and underscore Giles, g i e s.

And that's it.

Simply, where does the Whitespace name come from?

Whitespace was a business that I originally had that.

Um, it was just all about every category has a white space iron opportunity for a brand to go in there.

And I think I, I personally also believe every single category there's an opportunity for challenger brands.

So white space is obviously untapped space, basically.

So there you have it.

That was this week's episode of Business Without Bullshit.

Thank you Charles.