In this episode of the B2B SaaS podcast, dive into the remarkable journey of E Webinar with its co-founder and CEO, Melissa Kwan. Discover how E Webinar, a pioneering webinar automation solution, has scaled to new heights without relying on traditional VC funding. Melissa shares insights into the company's founding, unique features, growth strategies, and vision for the future, offering valuable lessons for entrepreneurs and SaaS enthusiasts alike.

• Discover the story behind E Webinar's inception and its unique features catering to sales and customer success needs.
• Gain valuable insights into E Webinar's growth trajectory, from bootstrapped beginnings to crossing the remarkable milestone of a million ARR.
• Explore the strategies behind E Webinar's success, including its product-led growth approach and focus on SEO and content marketing.
• Learn how E Webinar navigates customer support, trials, and conversions entirely self-serve, emphasizing product excellence and customer satisfaction.
• Delve into Melissa's vision for the future, focusing on sustainable growth, team well-being, and success without the need for VC funding.

Whether you're an entrepreneur, SaaS enthusiast, or interested in balanced business growth, this episode offers invaluable wisdom and inspiration.

You can also watch this episode on youtube here.

Well, we just crossed a million ARR, um, which

2

I feel like it's a big milestone.

3

So thank you.

4

So this is the biggest, like

now officially the biggest

5

company I've ever built

6

Upendra Varma: Hello everyone.

7

Welcome to the B2B SaaS podcast.

8

I'm your host Upendra Verma and

today we have Melissa Kwan with us.

9

Melissa is the co founder and CEO

of a company called E Webinar.

10

Hey Melissa, welcome to the show.

11

Melissa Kwan: Thanks for having me.

12

Upendra Varma: All right, Melissa,

let's try to understand, right.

13

What E Webinar does and why customers

are willing to pay your money.

14

Melissa Kwan: Okay.

15

Uh, eWebinar, um, is a

webinar automation solution.

16

So we turn any video into an

interactive webinar that you

17

can set on a recurring schedule.

18

So you can do hundreds of them every

single month without needing to be

19

in front of a camera to do it live.

20

So we scale, um, you know,

live webinars, things like live

21

demos, training, onboarding.

22

Um, we automate that for you.

23

So you never have to do them yourself.

24

Upendra Varma: Good.

25

And what use case are you

specifically trying to focus on?

26

Right?

27

I mean, I could see a lot

of use cases here, right?

28

So I'm, I'm assuming you must

have, you know, you know, zeroed

29

down on a couple of them, right?

30

So what use case are you

trying to solve here?

31

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

32

Um, I mean, there's two primary one is

of course, like sales and marketing,

33

like Legion, people using this for like

sales pitches, demos, thought leadership.

34

And then the second is customer

success, which is like post sale.

35

So it could be like training

content, onboarding.

36

As you can imagine, if you have a tech

company, a SAS company, um, you know,

37

you've got like lots of onboarding and

training to, you know, deliver to your

38

customers, but we also actually serve

a lot of non tech companies as well.

39

Like insurance companies.

40

You know, real estate companies that

are constantly training their agents

41

on like new regulations, new products.

42

Upendra Varma: So if I joined

one of your webinars, right?

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Does it look like a real webinar?

44

Do I know I'm on an automated setup

or like, how does it even feel?

45

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, I think we've

done a good job into making it look

46

and feel more like an interactive TV.

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There's a two way participation

where there's what we call a lot

48

of interactions that come up.

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So like, Polls questions, uh, you

know, contact form sales notifications,

50

you know, things that pop up.

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So there's like things you can, I guess,

play with for the lack of better term

52

as you're watching the experience.

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So it's less like a zoom or you're in

it and like someone's talking at you.

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And then there's a chat system where

you can like ask the host questions.

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They can respond in real time

or respond later through email.

56

So it's kind of like a support chat.

57

Um, I mean, it looks and feels Not

so much like, like it's live, right?

58

Like we encourage our customers

to never lie to their customers

59

and say it's live when it's not.

60

But it, it's almost like the

Netflix of webinars, right?

61

Like whether you're watching friends.

62

At 7 p.

63

m.

64

on a Thursday when it's live

on network or watching it on

65

Netflix, it's the same show.

66

So I would say, like, people know that

it's not 100 percent live because they're

67

getting it immediately and when you

click on the registration page, there's

68

like 10 time slots you can choose.

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Um, but, you know, it's more of a hybrid

because there is a chat that you can

70

respond in real time if you want to.

71

Upendra Varma: Yeah, my question here

is like, I mean, does it work, right?

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So, I mean, if I'm watching a

webinar, maybe I'm attending

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to hear to somebody, right?

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So, but if it's something that's

recorded already, and if you already

75

let me know, like, I'm just trying

to understand like what, what's that,

76

you know, drop off rate between a live

webinar or something like this, because

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this is like wonderfully scalable.

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That's very obvious.

79

If I'm a, if there's somebody sitting

in a sales team, I would definitely want

80

this, but yeah, does it work as good or

even better than what I have right now?

81

Melissa Kwan: I mean, you're asking

the founder of a company, is it

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better than what you have right now?

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So I'm going to have to say yes.

84

Upendra Varma: And I'm assuming

you'll back it up with some,

85

some data or something.

86

So that's,

87

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

88

And so, um, yeah, I, I mean, let's put

the whole drop off thing, like drop off

89

rate thing to the side for a second.

90

Like I think the attendance rate to

live events, because it only happens

91

one time is, is known to be low.

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Right.

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I would say like 20 percent

or lower because people sign

94

up and they want the replay.

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Cause like 11, your time is 11 PM my time.

96

So I sign up to get the replay,

but maybe I never watch it.

97

Right.

98

We all have replays we don't watch.

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Um, and that's accepted as the norm,

but just because that's a norm, I

100

don't think that has to be a reality.

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I think the nature of having something

be accessible anytime you want and for

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the quality to be even better than live,

because The content's tighter, the video

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quality is better, there's no housekeeping

and questions and interruptions.

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Our, uh, our average attendance

rate across all of our customers

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is 65 percent on average.

106

My demo, like, you know, because people

are really by nature of coming to my

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site, watching my demo, so they're

most likely going to come in, but the

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attendance rate of my demo is 90%.

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Anyone that's run a webinar before

knows that that's impossible.

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These are impossible rates,

but it's because we're making

111

it available at your schedule.

112

I'm not forcing you to fit my schedule.

113

So I think that's piece one.

114

Um, the question that you ask

is like, what's drop off rate?

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Like, well, I can't speak for

everybody because drop off

116

rate is fully dependent on.

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The person delivering the content, the

industry, and is the video quality good?

118

Is the sound quality good?

119

But I want to say that because

it's pre recorded, the quality, the

120

scripting, the video quality, like

can be much better and much tighter.

121

And we give you the option within

the software to allow people to

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watch in like playback speed, right?

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So to watch in like 1.

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5.

125

I cannot sit through something That

is like a, you know, normal speed.

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Every podcast, every video, I watch at 1.

127

75.

128

All of them.

129

So, I'm gonna drop off if I watch a live

webinar or live event because I'm bored.

130

But if I'm going to something

automated and I think there are

131

other people like me, I can choose to

watch it faster if I want to, right?

132

So I think that's kind of the

main difference, but I think drop

133

off rate is fully dependent on

like, Are you delivering value?

134

Upendra Varma: yeah.

135

And that's a great pitch Melissa.

136

I think I got a sense of what you're

trying to say here, but let's move

137

on to your customer base here.

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Right.

139

So as of today, right, how many

paying customers do you have

140

on your platform approximately?

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Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

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So I think we have like, I think

just under 800 companies now.

143

Upendra Varma: And then like,

what sort of, what sort of deal

144

sizes are we talking about here?

145

Right.

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So like how big of bigger deals, I know

there's going to be a spectrum here.

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Right.

148

But like typically what.

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For your ideal customer, right?

150

How much would they typically pay you?

151

Is it a 10, 000 deal?

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Is it a 100, 000 deal?

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Is it a 1, 000 deal?

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Melissa Kwan: So we're, uh,

we're a self serve platform.

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So we're, we're a product led growth SaaS.

156

So it's a, it's a low investment product.

157

So we start at a hundred bucks us.

158

And then, so it goes from like

a hundred, 200, 300, and then.

159

It kind of goes up from there.

160

But our average is, I think a hundred and

I wa I wanna say like it's $150 a, a team.

161

Um, is the average

162

Upendra Varma: That's per month, right?

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That's per

164

Melissa Kwan: per month?

165

Yeah.

166

Upendra Varma: right?

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It's around 2, 000, something like that.

168

Your ACV, something like that.

169

Got it, right?

170

So yeah, and just let's move on, right?

171

So where are people

discovering you, right?

172

So where are you getting all

of this growth from, right?

173

So what growth channels have

been working for you so far?

174

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

175

So my, actually, my post today on

LinkedIn is about all the $0 marketing

176

strategies that, that we, that we

deployed in, in, um, the past three years.

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But I wanna say ss e o

and content, which we.

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Um, like the strategy we own is

the most successful, um, marketing

179

strategy that we have over 50 percent

of our demos actually come from there.

180

Um, I share, you know, two to six times

every single week on LinkedIn, just not

181

related to company content, but like my

experience bootstrapping three companies.

182

So 20 percent of our

demos come from there.

183

Um, and then there's a

lot of other stuff, right?

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Like.

185

Not just SEO optimized content.

186

We create a lot of co marketing

content, like guest posts, templates,

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trainings for, you know, things that our

customers and prospects find valuable.

188

And we put that content out there.

189

Um, and then there's also like,

you know, getting into app

190

stores, right, doing integrations.

191

Once you do an integration, maybe

they'll do like a, an announcement.

192

So.

193

There's all this kind of stuff that

kind of has like compound interest

194

over time, but I want to say like

social media and like SEO optimized

195

content are the two major traffic

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Upendra Varma: And I want to

deep dive a bit into this, right?

197

So, and in terms of content, right?

198

So what sort of content

are we talking about?

199

Is it just, you know, SEO optimized

blog posts, which are long form?

200

Is that it?

201

Or do you have any specific

strategy that's going on?

202

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

203

I mean, I think content is broad, right?

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The idea of content is broad.

205

So, um, of course, like SEO key, like

heavily keyword research, like, um,

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content is like long form content is

like I would call SEO optimized so

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that those are like 50 percent of our

traffic comes from organic search.

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Pieces of content or like, of

course, social media posts, templates

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within our, um, you know, within

our products, customer case studies.

210

Getting people to write reviews on

like G2, Capterra, all those things.

211

Creating resources that I share with other

founders that are completely unrelated.

212

So like, a good example is a

financial projections Excel document

213

that you can copy and paste.

214

Um, I have, you know, I actively

get on other people's podcasts.

215

So like, You know, the podcast

that we're, we're on now, right?

216

It's, it's a marketing

strategy of mine as well.

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I've had a podcast in the

past with 15 episodes.

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All of it is evergreen content.

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Every single one of those

has a page on my site.

220

So these are just like some,

some of the more obvious things.

221

Um, and then, you know, the less

obvious things I would say, like

222

getting HubSpot, you know, Marketo,

Salesforce, and then having people

223

discover us through there as well.

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Upendra Varma: So, so Melissa,

you talked about your LinkedIn

225

strategy as such, right?

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Where you typically go out and share your

own bootstrap journey, your story, right?

227

That people connect with and

maybe they come to you, right?

228

So my question is like, does the

customer base you're trying to

229

target overlaps with that, right?

230

So do you have a good overlap there?

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Because if there's No overlap.

232

It might not make a lot of sense.

233

Right.

234

And, and I asked this question,

everybody, because I mean, everybody

235

says like, okay, just go ahead.

236

Be honest, share your journey.

237

But I mean, if that doesn't match, right.

238

So it's not going to make any sense.

239

Right.

240

So in your case, what's,

how does that look like?

241

Does it match?

242

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

243

So, um, and that's a great, that's a great

question because, so I took a course on

244

like how LinkedIn works from Justin Walsh.

245

Uh, I don't know if you know him

as a creator, but his whole like

246

method is write about something

within your expertise that attracts

247

the audience you care about,

248

Upendra Varma: Yeah.

249

Melissa Kwan: otherwise it's useless.

250

So the best customers for eWebinar are

resource strapped companies, right?

251

Right.

252

Because we are almost

like an extra person.

253

That are doing these webinars

for you and resource trap

254

companies are bootstrap companies.

255

Like they are my number one

target customer or like small

256

medium companies, right?

257

Which consider themselves

kind of boots bootstrappy.

258

So, um, it just, it just was just such a

natural fit that I would only write about.

259

Like stories from my bootstrapping

journey to attract other bootstrappers

260

and then they come to my profile and the

main link that I have is, is ewebinar.

261

com.

262

So for me, it definitely

matched, but you're right.

263

Like, if you're, if the content

you're putting out there is not

264

attracting potential customers.

265

They were, they're never going to come

to your site, but I think there's a

266

reason why 20 percent of our demos

actually come from LinkedIn is because

267

there is, there is an alignment there.

268

Upendra Varma: Got it.

269

And let's move towards

the bottom of your funnel.

270

Right.

271

Is it completely self serve?

272

Right.

273

Or do you have any, you know, touch motion

274

Melissa Kwan: self serve

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Upendra Varma: Okay.

276

Melissa Kwan: zero.

277

I refuse to, I refuse to talk to anybody

regardless of how big their company is.

278

It's about training your customer.

279

Like I know I hate calls and I didn't

start a product to be product led.

280

So that I can talk to people.

281

I did that in the beginning, right?

282

For the first year, because like

every company starts off sales led,

283

I had to sell probably our first

a hundred deals, but that gets

284

tiring pretty quickly because you're

not getting the return, right?

285

Sales cycle is long and it's

like a hundred bucks to start.

286

So when somebody comes into the funnel

and they're like, Oh, I would like

287

to talk to a person before I sign up.

288

The answer is no, I will not talk to

them because if I talk to them once.

289

They'll know that after they sign up,

they can get me again and again and again.

290

And so it's part of me, like training

my customers to know that we're always

291

there on support, on text, on email.

292

And they can get us at

any time of the day.

293

They just can't get me on the phone.

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Upendra Varma: That makes a lot of sense.

295

So, so what happens in your funnel, right?

296

Is it like, okay, somebody discovers

you if they start a trial and then

297

they essentially after, you know,

whatever that time period is, they

298

just have to subscribe to a paid plan.

299

Is that it?

300

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, that's really it.

301

Right.

302

You know, they join a demo, um, after they

join a demo, they get entered into like a

303

Upendra Varma: But that's

an automated demo, right?

304

So there's nobody sitting out there.

305

Yeah.

306

Using your own

307

Melissa Kwan: That, we use our

product to deliver our demos.

308

So like, I think last year over

309

I didn't do a single one live, but

there's a kind of a 10 day, very

310

quick follow up like every second day.

311

And then they get it put into like a six

week kind of follow up and then they get

312

it put into a sequence of getting one

mail per month about like, you know, how

313

customers are using us and things like

that as kind of a nurture campaign if

314

they do not sign up and don't convert.

315

If they sign up, but don't convert,

then they get put into kind of

316

a different, a different track

of 12 emails over the next year.

317

Uh, but really just to remind

them that, uh, we're here.

318

But everything is like self

serve and super simple.

319

Upendra Varma: And then just,

can you just quantify how

320

this funnel looks like, right?

321

So what sort of a conversion rate

are we talking about for somebody

322

who signs up to somebody who

becomes a paid customer of yours?

323

Approximately.

324

So,

325

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

326

So about, um, 20 percent of people

that join our demo will sign up on,

327

um, on a, on a trial, but of course

not everybody has to watch a demo

328

before they sign up on a trial.

329

Like some people sign up

without, without that.

330

Um, and then depending on the month,

I guess our conversion rate from trial

331

to paid is anywhere between 35 to 40%.

332

Before we doubled our prices.

333

So our prices when we started used to

be 50 and now it's a hundred before

334

it, when it was 50 conversion rate

was about 60%, but we had a lot more

335

churn and we had a lot more people

that weren't very tech savvy and needed

336

more support after we raise our price.

337

Um, you know, we had less trials.

338

You know, a lower conversion,

but it's a net positive

339

because we are charging double.

340

But the major positive is we're

getting more serious people signing

341

up, not just people signing up because

we're cheap and they need a bunch of

342

handholding and then don't convert.

343

Upendra Varma: so what's really

been working for you, right?

344

I mean, I'm assuming they're

like bunch of, you know,

345

competitors out there, right?

346

So, so how do you establish that

credibility during those, you know,

347

14, 20 days when they're using

your product for trial, right?

348

So how do you manage to convince them?

349

And if you're not getting into

a call, right, so how are you

350

establishing that credibility?

351

Why, why, why do they have to pick you?

352

Right?

353

So what's, what's happening there?

354

Like, what's the secret sauce?

355

For

356

Melissa Kwan: two things.

357

Um, one is we have the most

incredible product by far.

358

I want the customer to be in deep research

because if I was the first person you

359

come to, you have nothing to compare to.

360

If the first car that I saw was a Ferrari.

361

I'd be like, well, what else is out there?

362

Maybe, maybe there's something better.

363

Maybe the seat's too low.

364

Like, I'm not sure, right?

365

But anyone who is deep in research

and has seen like two or three other

366

products or maybe five or six, they'll

come to us and be like, this is the best.

367

So that's number one is

like, you have to have

368

Upendra Varma: And what

do you mean by the best?

369

Is it like, what's, what's that feature?

370

Like, is it in terms of feature set?

371

Are you talking about usability

or performance of what's okay.

372

Melissa Kwan: And I, I don't

say that lightly, right?

373

We have the most features.

374

We have the only chat system

that lets people hop in real time

375

or respond later through email.

376

It's not a fake email

box that looks like chat.

377

It's real.

378

We have 20 different interactions.

379

It looks and feels like

the Apple of webinars.

380

And this is words, you

know, from our customers.

381

Number two is.

382

For better or for worse, we

are always available, right?

383

We have a small team, everybody's

on support seven days a week.

384

If someone's awake, they're responding.

385

And this is part of trust, right?

386

Like, of course that's not

sustainable over time as we get

387

bigger, but people feel close to us.

388

They feel like we're human.

389

You're not getting put in a

queue of tickets and someone

390

responds to you in five days.

391

And we listen to your feedback and we

actually implement it if it makes sense.

392

So our

393

Upendra Varma: that even if I'm

just starting a trial and I'm

394

not your paid customer, would

you reply to me immediately?

395

Okay.

396

So that's my next question, right?

397

So like, like I'm assuming now that your

customer support is not automated, right?

398

You've got people, you know, just, okay.

399

And what's the

400

Melissa Kwan: we have a very, we have

a very big, no, but we have a very big.

401

Like help center.

402

So it's automated in that sense.

403

Like any, any question they have, maybe we

have an article like we don't help them.

404

We don't get on a call.

405

We only help them through text and email.

406

Um, like we, we just use

HubSpot for, for ticketing.

407

Um, but we have a very.

408

quick response time and a very

huge library of help articles

409

that they can actually go through.

410

Um, but I think the most important thing

is we make them feel present and we make

411

ourselves trustworthy and we make our

customers feel like they're part of the

412

process so they can impact the roadmap.

413

So they make a difference in our product.

414

So I've heard that like time and time

again, it's why people pick us is

415

because our support is really good.

416

Upendra Varma: And Melissa,

what about churn here, right?

417

So I'm assuming you're spending a

lot of time in ensuring that your

418

customers are successful, right?

419

So what sort of churn rates are we seeing?

420

I mean, obviously after

increased prices, right?

421

So now that you've got a bit less churn.

422

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, I mean, I think

churn is normal, especially for SMB.

423

Um, I think our churn is

anywhere from like eight to 10

424

percent revenue wise a month.

425

It's higher than I want it to be,

but it's also because we've never

426

worked on that part of our business.

427

We've always been like chasing something

else, but actually as we speak, this

428

quarter is the first quarter where we're

looking at how to better activation and

429

churn and onboarding by, you know, More

better in app messaging, better emails.

430

We just installed user pilot.

431

We don't even measure anything.

432

We have no stats on our customers.

433

We've just been like.

434

Chasing features, chasing revenue,

but now we're in a place where

435

we can like breathe a little bit.

436

Um, but yeah, like churn is, is higher

than I want it to be, but there,

437

you can't, you can't save all churn.

438

Right.

439

If that makes sense.

440

Like some people are just not ready.

441

Some, and maybe like, maybe some

people sign up and it's more,

442

it's too expensive for them.

443

Maybe they're not even

ready in their business.

444

Um, I I've heard this really great

thing before where it's like when, when

445

customers or when companies obsess about

churn, it's almost like leaving a party.

446

Where people are having a great time

to chase after people who left because

447

they're not having a great time, right?

448

It's, you should, you should find more

people who want to come to the party.

449

And that's what we've been doing.

450

And that's why customer case studies

and reviews is such a big part of

451

our marketing is we want people,

we want to find more people like

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them and not focus too much time

on like, Oh, why did you leave?

453

And when did you leave?

454

And let's measure why you left.

455

Like that, that is actually

less important to me.

456

Upendra Varma: So Melissa, let's

talk about the backstory here.

457

It's have you raised any external

funding so far to build your company?

458

Melissa Kwan: So we do not

have any institutional funding.

459

So no VC, no private equity.

460

We do have like friends and family

funding in the beginning to get started.

461

But David and I, David

is my CTO co founder.

462

We wrote the first checks.

463

So we invested financially, of

course, and our time, um, into the

464

business to, to get it started.

465

Upendra Varma: And then like, as a

free, are you completely bootstrapped?

466

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

467

I mean, I would consider that bootstraps.

468

Like we don't have zeros funding, but

I think having zero funding is, is a

469

misconception of bootstrap companies.

470

Yeah, bootstrap

471

Upendra Varma: You've

got to start somewhere.

472

Yeah.

473

Melissa Kwan: yeah, you

don't have VC funding.

474

We have like friends and family.

475

Upendra Varma: And then

how big is your team today?

476

Melissa Kwan: We have all

contractors, zero employees.

477

But as for full time contractors,

we have eight people.

478

And then we have like some

part time on as needed.

479

So as needed is like

Designers, contract writers.

480

Upendra Varma: who built

the entire product?

481

Is it just, you know, you,

your CTO working with this

482

Melissa Kwan: Yeah, my CTO, yeah,

my CTO, we've got a team in Vietnam.

483

We have a team of five developers,

developers in Vietnam, and

484

we just recently brought on

another senior from Ukraine.

485

Um, but he is like the

lead of the products.

486

He still, he still writes code and he

manages the development team as well.

487

I wish I can code, but.

488

You know, I can't.

489

Upendra Varma: All right.

490

So Melissa, so what's,

what's the big vision here?

491

Right.

492

So where do you see your company going

in less than next two to three years?

493

Melissa Kwan: Well, we just

crossed a million ARR, um, which

494

I feel like it's a big milestone.

495

So thank you.

496

So this is the biggest, like

now officially the biggest

497

company I've ever built.

498

Um, honestly, my

499

Upendra Varma: And you've got

absolutely two people on your, you

500

know, what you say, permanent payroll.

501

Is that how we can see it?

502

Right.

503

So because everybody's a contractor.

504

Melissa Kwan: um, yeah,

I don't pay myself.

505

Um.

506

Yes, I hope to, and, and, you know,

in the next few months, um, but you

507

know, they're, they're, even if they're

a contractor, I would still consider

508

them on payroll because they're,

I'm just paying them differently

509

because they're far away, they're not

510

Upendra Varma: And are

you profitable today?

511

Melissa Kwan: Uh, I think we hit our

first profitable quarter last quarter.

512

But I don't pay myself.

513

So this is a big, you know, this is a

big detail is if I did pay myself, then I

514

can't, but I did sell a company in 2019.

515

So I'm, I'm, you know, living,

living off the proceeds of that,

516

um, which allows me to do what I do.

517

Um, yeah.

518

So I

519

Upendra Varma: Going back to the

vision of your company in the

520

Melissa Kwan: Yeah.

521

The vision of my company, I

just number one, I want to pay

522

myself, not a small salary.

523

I want to pay myself a market salary.

524

You know, I've been doing this for

13 years and the only two years I've

525

ever had a real salary was when I sold

my previous company to a new company.

526

All of those years when I was working for

myself, I was not getting a market salary.

527

So I, I want to pay

myself a market salary.

528

I want everyone on my team

to get a market salary.

529

And my goal is just to make sure

everybody has a good time and live well.

530

And if In the future, we sell this

company that would be a bonus, but

531

it's not the thing that I'm going for.

532

The thing I'm going for is freedom

and lifestyle and making sure everyone

533

is taken care of and has a good time.

534

Upendra Varma: And are you going

to raise VC funny and VC money?

535

And are you going to sort of

chase that extraordinary growth?

536

Melissa Kwan: never.

537

I think I want to chase extraordinary

growth without VC money.

538

I think that's key.

539

Upendra Varma: Yeah.

540

That's wonderful, Melissa.

541

All right, Melissa, thanks for

taking the time to talk to me.

542

It's a wonderful conversation, right?

543

So hope you scale AWA now to

much, much greater heights.

544

Melissa Kwan: Thanks so much.