In this episode of the B2B SaaS podcast, dive into the remarkable journey of E Webinar with its co-founder and CEO, Melissa Kwan. Discover how E Webinar, a pioneering webinar automation solution, has scaled to new heights without relying on traditional VC funding. Melissa shares insights into the company's founding, unique features, growth strategies, and vision for the future, offering valuable lessons for entrepreneurs and SaaS enthusiasts alike.
Whether you're an entrepreneur, SaaS enthusiast, or interested in balanced business growth, this episode offers invaluable wisdom and inspiration.
You can also watch this episode on youtube here.
Well, we just crossed a million ARR, um, which
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:I feel like it's a big milestone.
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:So thank you.
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:So this is the biggest, like
now officially the biggest
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:company I've ever built
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:Upendra Varma: Hello everyone.
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:Welcome to the B2B SaaS podcast.
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:I'm your host Upendra Verma and
today we have Melissa Kwan with us.
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:Melissa is the co founder and CEO
of a company called E Webinar.
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:Hey Melissa, welcome to the show.
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:Melissa Kwan: Thanks for having me.
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:Upendra Varma: All right, Melissa,
let's try to understand, right.
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:What E Webinar does and why customers
are willing to pay your money.
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:Melissa Kwan: Okay.
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:Uh, eWebinar, um, is a
webinar automation solution.
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:So we turn any video into an
interactive webinar that you
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:can set on a recurring schedule.
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:So you can do hundreds of them every
single month without needing to be
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:in front of a camera to do it live.
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:So we scale, um, you know,
live webinars, things like live
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:demos, training, onboarding.
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:Um, we automate that for you.
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:So you never have to do them yourself.
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:Upendra Varma: Good.
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:And what use case are you
specifically trying to focus on?
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:Right?
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:I mean, I could see a lot
of use cases here, right?
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:So I'm, I'm assuming you must
have, you know, you know, zeroed
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:down on a couple of them, right?
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:So what use case are you
trying to solve here?
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
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:Um, I mean, there's two primary one is
of course, like sales and marketing,
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:like Legion, people using this for like
sales pitches, demos, thought leadership.
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:And then the second is customer
success, which is like post sale.
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:So it could be like training
content, onboarding.
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:As you can imagine, if you have a tech
company, a SAS company, um, you know,
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:you've got like lots of onboarding and
training to, you know, deliver to your
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:customers, but we also actually serve
a lot of non tech companies as well.
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:Like insurance companies.
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:You know, real estate companies that
are constantly training their agents
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:on like new regulations, new products.
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:Upendra Varma: So if I joined
one of your webinars, right?
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:Does it look like a real webinar?
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:Do I know I'm on an automated setup
or like, how does it even feel?
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah, I think we've
done a good job into making it look
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:and feel more like an interactive TV.
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:There's a two way participation
where there's what we call a lot
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:of interactions that come up.
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:So like, Polls questions, uh, you
know, contact form sales notifications,
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:you know, things that pop up.
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:So there's like things you can, I guess,
play with for the lack of better term
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:as you're watching the experience.
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:So it's less like a zoom or you're in
it and like someone's talking at you.
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:And then there's a chat system where
you can like ask the host questions.
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:They can respond in real time
or respond later through email.
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:So it's kind of like a support chat.
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:Um, I mean, it looks and feels Not
so much like, like it's live, right?
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:Like we encourage our customers
to never lie to their customers
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:and say it's live when it's not.
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:But it, it's almost like the
Netflix of webinars, right?
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:Like whether you're watching friends.
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:At 7 p.
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:m.
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:on a Thursday when it's live
on network or watching it on
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:Netflix, it's the same show.
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:So I would say, like, people know that
it's not 100 percent live because they're
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:getting it immediately and when you
click on the registration page, there's
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:like 10 time slots you can choose.
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:Um, but, you know, it's more of a hybrid
because there is a chat that you can
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:respond in real time if you want to.
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:Upendra Varma: Yeah, my question here
is like, I mean, does it work, right?
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:So, I mean, if I'm watching a
webinar, maybe I'm attending
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:to hear to somebody, right?
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:So, but if it's something that's
recorded already, and if you already
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:let me know, like, I'm just trying
to understand like what, what's that,
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:you know, drop off rate between a live
webinar or something like this, because
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:this is like wonderfully scalable.
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:That's very obvious.
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:If I'm a, if there's somebody sitting
in a sales team, I would definitely want
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:this, but yeah, does it work as good or
even better than what I have right now?
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:Melissa Kwan: I mean, you're asking
the founder of a company, is it
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:better than what you have right now?
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:So I'm going to have to say yes.
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:Upendra Varma: And I'm assuming
you'll back it up with some,
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:some data or something.
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:So that's,
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
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:And so, um, yeah, I, I mean, let's put
the whole drop off thing, like drop off
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:rate thing to the side for a second.
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:Like I think the attendance rate to
live events, because it only happens
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:one time is, is known to be low.
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:Right.
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:I would say like 20 percent
or lower because people sign
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:up and they want the replay.
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:Cause like 11, your time is 11 PM my time.
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:So I sign up to get the replay,
but maybe I never watch it.
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:Right.
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:We all have replays we don't watch.
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:Um, and that's accepted as the norm,
but just because that's a norm, I
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:don't think that has to be a reality.
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:I think the nature of having something
be accessible anytime you want and for
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:the quality to be even better than live,
because The content's tighter, the video
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:quality is better, there's no housekeeping
and questions and interruptions.
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:Our, uh, our average attendance
rate across all of our customers
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:is 65 percent on average.
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:My demo, like, you know, because people
are really by nature of coming to my
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:site, watching my demo, so they're
most likely going to come in, but the
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:attendance rate of my demo is 90%.
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:Anyone that's run a webinar before
knows that that's impossible.
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:These are impossible rates,
but it's because we're making
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:it available at your schedule.
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:I'm not forcing you to fit my schedule.
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:So I think that's piece one.
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:Um, the question that you ask
is like, what's drop off rate?
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:Like, well, I can't speak for
everybody because drop off
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:rate is fully dependent on.
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:The person delivering the content, the
industry, and is the video quality good?
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:Is the sound quality good?
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:But I want to say that because
it's pre recorded, the quality, the
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:scripting, the video quality, like
can be much better and much tighter.
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:And we give you the option within
the software to allow people to
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:watch in like playback speed, right?
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:So to watch in like 1.
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:5.
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:I cannot sit through something That
is like a, you know, normal speed.
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:Every podcast, every video, I watch at 1.
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:75.
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:All of them.
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:So, I'm gonna drop off if I watch a live
webinar or live event because I'm bored.
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:But if I'm going to something
automated and I think there are
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:other people like me, I can choose to
watch it faster if I want to, right?
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:So I think that's kind of the
main difference, but I think drop
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:off rate is fully dependent on
like, Are you delivering value?
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:Upendra Varma: yeah.
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:And that's a great pitch Melissa.
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:I think I got a sense of what you're
trying to say here, but let's move
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:on to your customer base here.
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:Right.
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:So as of today, right, how many
paying customers do you have
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:on your platform approximately?
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
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:So I think we have like, I think
just under 800 companies now.
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:Upendra Varma: And then like,
what sort of, what sort of deal
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:sizes are we talking about here?
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:Right.
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:So like how big of bigger deals, I know
there's going to be a spectrum here.
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:Right.
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:But like typically what.
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:For your ideal customer, right?
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:How much would they typically pay you?
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:Is it a 10, 000 deal?
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:Is it a 100, 000 deal?
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:Is it a 1, 000 deal?
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:Melissa Kwan: So we're, uh,
we're a self serve platform.
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:So we're, we're a product led growth SaaS.
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:So it's a, it's a low investment product.
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:So we start at a hundred bucks us.
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:And then, so it goes from like
a hundred, 200, 300, and then.
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:It kind of goes up from there.
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:But our average is, I think a hundred and
I wa I wanna say like it's $150 a, a team.
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:Um, is the average
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:Upendra Varma: That's per month, right?
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:That's per
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:Melissa Kwan: per month?
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:Yeah.
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:Upendra Varma: right?
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:It's around 2, 000, something like that.
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:Your ACV, something like that.
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:Got it, right?
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:So yeah, and just let's move on, right?
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:So where are people
discovering you, right?
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:So where are you getting all
of this growth from, right?
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:So what growth channels have
been working for you so far?
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
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:So my, actually, my post today on
LinkedIn is about all the $0 marketing
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:strategies that, that we, that we
deployed in, in, um, the past three years.
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:But I wanna say ss e o
and content, which we.
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:Um, like the strategy we own is
the most successful, um, marketing
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:strategy that we have over 50 percent
of our demos actually come from there.
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:Um, I share, you know, two to six times
every single week on LinkedIn, just not
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:related to company content, but like my
experience bootstrapping three companies.
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:So 20 percent of our
demos come from there.
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:Um, and then there's a
lot of other stuff, right?
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:Like.
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:Not just SEO optimized content.
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:We create a lot of co marketing
content, like guest posts, templates,
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:trainings for, you know, things that our
customers and prospects find valuable.
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:And we put that content out there.
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:Um, and then there's also like,
you know, getting into app
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:stores, right, doing integrations.
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:Once you do an integration, maybe
they'll do like a, an announcement.
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:So.
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:There's all this kind of stuff that
kind of has like compound interest
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:over time, but I want to say like
social media and like SEO optimized
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:content are the two major traffic
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:Upendra Varma: And I want to
deep dive a bit into this, right?
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:So, and in terms of content, right?
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:So what sort of content
are we talking about?
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:Is it just, you know, SEO optimized
blog posts, which are long form?
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:Is that it?
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:Or do you have any specific
strategy that's going on?
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
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:I mean, I think content is broad, right?
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:The idea of content is broad.
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:So, um, of course, like SEO key, like
heavily keyword research, like, um,
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:content is like long form content is
like I would call SEO optimized so
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:that those are like 50 percent of our
traffic comes from organic search.
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:Pieces of content or like, of
course, social media posts, templates
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:within our, um, you know, within
our products, customer case studies.
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:Getting people to write reviews on
like G2, Capterra, all those things.
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:Creating resources that I share with other
founders that are completely unrelated.
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:So like, a good example is a
financial projections Excel document
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:that you can copy and paste.
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:Um, I have, you know, I actively
get on other people's podcasts.
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:So like, You know, the podcast
that we're, we're on now, right?
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:It's, it's a marketing
strategy of mine as well.
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:I've had a podcast in the
past with 15 episodes.
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:All of it is evergreen content.
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:Every single one of those
has a page on my site.
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:So these are just like some,
some of the more obvious things.
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:Um, and then, you know, the less
obvious things I would say, like
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:getting HubSpot, you know, Marketo,
Salesforce, and then having people
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:discover us through there as well.
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:Upendra Varma: So, so Melissa,
you talked about your LinkedIn
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:strategy as such, right?
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:Where you typically go out and share your
own bootstrap journey, your story, right?
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:That people connect with and
maybe they come to you, right?
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:So my question is like, does the
customer base you're trying to
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:target overlaps with that, right?
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:So do you have a good overlap there?
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:Because if there's No overlap.
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:It might not make a lot of sense.
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:Right.
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:And, and I asked this question,
everybody, because I mean, everybody
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:says like, okay, just go ahead.
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:Be honest, share your journey.
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:But I mean, if that doesn't match, right.
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:So it's not going to make any sense.
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:Right.
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:So in your case, what's,
how does that look like?
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:Does it match?
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
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:So, um, and that's a great, that's a great
question because, so I took a course on
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:like how LinkedIn works from Justin Walsh.
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:Uh, I don't know if you know him
as a creator, but his whole like
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:method is write about something
within your expertise that attracts
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:the audience you care about,
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:Upendra Varma: Yeah.
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:Melissa Kwan: otherwise it's useless.
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:So the best customers for eWebinar are
resource strapped companies, right?
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:Right.
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:Because we are almost
like an extra person.
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:That are doing these webinars
for you and resource trap
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:companies are bootstrap companies.
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:Like they are my number one
target customer or like small
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:medium companies, right?
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:Which consider themselves
kind of boots bootstrappy.
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:So, um, it just, it just was just such a
natural fit that I would only write about.
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:Like stories from my bootstrapping
journey to attract other bootstrappers
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:and then they come to my profile and the
main link that I have is, is ewebinar.
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:com.
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:So for me, it definitely
matched, but you're right.
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:Like, if you're, if the content
you're putting out there is not
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:attracting potential customers.
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:They were, they're never going to come
to your site, but I think there's a
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:reason why 20 percent of our demos
actually come from LinkedIn is because
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:there is, there is an alignment there.
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:Upendra Varma: Got it.
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:And let's move towards
the bottom of your funnel.
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:Right.
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:Is it completely self serve?
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:Right.
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:Or do you have any, you know, touch motion
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:Melissa Kwan: self serve
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:Upendra Varma: Okay.
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:Melissa Kwan: zero.
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:I refuse to, I refuse to talk to anybody
regardless of how big their company is.
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:It's about training your customer.
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:Like I know I hate calls and I didn't
start a product to be product led.
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:So that I can talk to people.
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:I did that in the beginning, right?
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:For the first year, because like
every company starts off sales led,
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:I had to sell probably our first
a hundred deals, but that gets
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:tiring pretty quickly because you're
not getting the return, right?
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:Sales cycle is long and it's
like a hundred bucks to start.
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:So when somebody comes into the funnel
and they're like, Oh, I would like
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:to talk to a person before I sign up.
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:The answer is no, I will not talk to
them because if I talk to them once.
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:They'll know that after they sign up,
they can get me again and again and again.
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:And so it's part of me, like training
my customers to know that we're always
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:there on support, on text, on email.
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:And they can get us at
any time of the day.
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:They just can't get me on the phone.
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:Upendra Varma: That makes a lot of sense.
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:So, so what happens in your funnel, right?
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:Is it like, okay, somebody discovers
you if they start a trial and then
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:they essentially after, you know,
whatever that time period is, they
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:just have to subscribe to a paid plan.
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:Is that it?
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah, that's really it.
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:Right.
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:You know, they join a demo, um, after they
join a demo, they get entered into like a
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:Upendra Varma: But that's
an automated demo, right?
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:So there's nobody sitting out there.
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:Yeah.
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:Using your own
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:Melissa Kwan: That, we use our
product to deliver our demos.
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:So like, I think last year over
:
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:I didn't do a single one live, but
there's a kind of a 10 day, very
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:quick follow up like every second day.
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:And then they get it put into like a six
week kind of follow up and then they get
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:it put into a sequence of getting one
mail per month about like, you know, how
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:customers are using us and things like
that as kind of a nurture campaign if
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:they do not sign up and don't convert.
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:If they sign up, but don't convert,
then they get put into kind of
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:a different, a different track
of 12 emails over the next year.
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:Uh, but really just to remind
them that, uh, we're here.
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:But everything is like self
serve and super simple.
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:Upendra Varma: And then just,
can you just quantify how
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:this funnel looks like, right?
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:So what sort of a conversion rate
are we talking about for somebody
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:who signs up to somebody who
becomes a paid customer of yours?
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:Approximately.
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:So,
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
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:So about, um, 20 percent of people
that join our demo will sign up on,
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:um, on a, on a trial, but of course
not everybody has to watch a demo
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:before they sign up on a trial.
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:Like some people sign up
without, without that.
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:Um, and then depending on the month,
I guess our conversion rate from trial
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:to paid is anywhere between 35 to 40%.
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:Before we doubled our prices.
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:So our prices when we started used to
be 50 and now it's a hundred before
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:it, when it was 50 conversion rate
was about 60%, but we had a lot more
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:churn and we had a lot more people
that weren't very tech savvy and needed
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:more support after we raise our price.
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:Um, you know, we had less trials.
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:You know, a lower conversion,
but it's a net positive
339
:because we are charging double.
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:But the major positive is we're
getting more serious people signing
341
:up, not just people signing up because
we're cheap and they need a bunch of
342
:handholding and then don't convert.
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:Upendra Varma: so what's really
been working for you, right?
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:I mean, I'm assuming they're
like bunch of, you know,
345
:competitors out there, right?
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:So, so how do you establish that
credibility during those, you know,
347
:14, 20 days when they're using
your product for trial, right?
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:So how do you manage to convince them?
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:And if you're not getting into
a call, right, so how are you
350
:establishing that credibility?
351
:Why, why, why do they have to pick you?
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:Right?
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:So what's, what's happening there?
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:Like, what's the secret sauce?
355
:For
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:Melissa Kwan: two things.
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:Um, one is we have the most
incredible product by far.
358
:I want the customer to be in deep research
because if I was the first person you
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:come to, you have nothing to compare to.
360
:If the first car that I saw was a Ferrari.
361
:I'd be like, well, what else is out there?
362
:Maybe, maybe there's something better.
363
:Maybe the seat's too low.
364
:Like, I'm not sure, right?
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:But anyone who is deep in research
and has seen like two or three other
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:products or maybe five or six, they'll
come to us and be like, this is the best.
367
:So that's number one is
like, you have to have
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:Upendra Varma: And what
do you mean by the best?
369
:Is it like, what's, what's that feature?
370
:Like, is it in terms of feature set?
371
:Are you talking about usability
or performance of what's okay.
372
:Melissa Kwan: And I, I don't
say that lightly, right?
373
:We have the most features.
374
:We have the only chat system
that lets people hop in real time
375
:or respond later through email.
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:It's not a fake email
box that looks like chat.
377
:It's real.
378
:We have 20 different interactions.
379
:It looks and feels like
the Apple of webinars.
380
:And this is words, you
know, from our customers.
381
:Number two is.
382
:For better or for worse, we
are always available, right?
383
:We have a small team, everybody's
on support seven days a week.
384
:If someone's awake, they're responding.
385
:And this is part of trust, right?
386
:Like, of course that's not
sustainable over time as we get
387
:bigger, but people feel close to us.
388
:They feel like we're human.
389
:You're not getting put in a
queue of tickets and someone
390
:responds to you in five days.
391
:And we listen to your feedback and we
actually implement it if it makes sense.
392
:So our
393
:Upendra Varma: that even if I'm
just starting a trial and I'm
394
:not your paid customer, would
you reply to me immediately?
395
:Okay.
396
:So that's my next question, right?
397
:So like, like I'm assuming now that your
customer support is not automated, right?
398
:You've got people, you know, just, okay.
399
:And what's the
400
:Melissa Kwan: we have a very, we have
a very big, no, but we have a very big.
401
:Like help center.
402
:So it's automated in that sense.
403
:Like any, any question they have, maybe we
have an article like we don't help them.
404
:We don't get on a call.
405
:We only help them through text and email.
406
:Um, like we, we just use
HubSpot for, for ticketing.
407
:Um, but we have a very.
408
:quick response time and a very
huge library of help articles
409
:that they can actually go through.
410
:Um, but I think the most important thing
is we make them feel present and we make
411
:ourselves trustworthy and we make our
customers feel like they're part of the
412
:process so they can impact the roadmap.
413
:So they make a difference in our product.
414
:So I've heard that like time and time
again, it's why people pick us is
415
:because our support is really good.
416
:Upendra Varma: And Melissa,
what about churn here, right?
417
:So I'm assuming you're spending a
lot of time in ensuring that your
418
:customers are successful, right?
419
:So what sort of churn rates are we seeing?
420
:I mean, obviously after
increased prices, right?
421
:So now that you've got a bit less churn.
422
:Melissa Kwan: Yeah, I mean, I think
churn is normal, especially for SMB.
423
:Um, I think our churn is
anywhere from like eight to 10
424
:percent revenue wise a month.
425
:It's higher than I want it to be,
but it's also because we've never
426
:worked on that part of our business.
427
:We've always been like chasing something
else, but actually as we speak, this
428
:quarter is the first quarter where we're
looking at how to better activation and
429
:churn and onboarding by, you know, More
better in app messaging, better emails.
430
:We just installed user pilot.
431
:We don't even measure anything.
432
:We have no stats on our customers.
433
:We've just been like.
434
:Chasing features, chasing revenue,
but now we're in a place where
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:we can like breathe a little bit.
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:Um, but yeah, like churn is, is higher
than I want it to be, but there,
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:you can't, you can't save all churn.
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:Right.
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:If that makes sense.
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:Like some people are just not ready.
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:Some, and maybe like, maybe some
people sign up and it's more,
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:it's too expensive for them.
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:Maybe they're not even
ready in their business.
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:Um, I I've heard this really great
thing before where it's like when, when
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:customers or when companies obsess about
churn, it's almost like leaving a party.
446
:Where people are having a great time
to chase after people who left because
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:they're not having a great time, right?
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:It's, you should, you should find more
people who want to come to the party.
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:And that's what we've been doing.
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:And that's why customer case studies
and reviews is such a big part of
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:our marketing is we want people,
we want to find more people like
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:them and not focus too much time
on like, Oh, why did you leave?
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:And when did you leave?
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:And let's measure why you left.
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:Like that, that is actually
less important to me.
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:Upendra Varma: So Melissa, let's
talk about the backstory here.
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:It's have you raised any external
funding so far to build your company?
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:Melissa Kwan: So we do not
have any institutional funding.
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:So no VC, no private equity.
460
:We do have like friends and family
funding in the beginning to get started.
461
:But David and I, David
is my CTO co founder.
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:We wrote the first checks.
463
:So we invested financially, of
course, and our time, um, into the
464
:business to, to get it started.
465
:Upendra Varma: And then like, as a
free, are you completely bootstrapped?
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
467
:I mean, I would consider that bootstraps.
468
:Like we don't have zeros funding, but
I think having zero funding is, is a
469
:misconception of bootstrap companies.
470
:Yeah, bootstrap
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:Upendra Varma: You've
got to start somewhere.
472
:Yeah.
473
:Melissa Kwan: yeah, you
don't have VC funding.
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:We have like friends and family.
475
:Upendra Varma: And then
how big is your team today?
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:Melissa Kwan: We have all
contractors, zero employees.
477
:But as for full time contractors,
we have eight people.
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:And then we have like some
part time on as needed.
479
:So as needed is like
Designers, contract writers.
480
:Upendra Varma: who built
the entire product?
481
:Is it just, you know, you,
your CTO working with this
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:Melissa Kwan: Yeah, my CTO, yeah,
my CTO, we've got a team in Vietnam.
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:We have a team of five developers,
developers in Vietnam, and
484
:we just recently brought on
another senior from Ukraine.
485
:Um, but he is like the
lead of the products.
486
:He still, he still writes code and he
manages the development team as well.
487
:I wish I can code, but.
488
:You know, I can't.
489
:Upendra Varma: All right.
490
:So Melissa, so what's,
what's the big vision here?
491
:Right.
492
:So where do you see your company going
in less than next two to three years?
493
:Melissa Kwan: Well, we just
crossed a million ARR, um, which
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:I feel like it's a big milestone.
495
:So thank you.
496
:So this is the biggest, like
now officially the biggest
497
:company I've ever built.
498
:Um, honestly, my
499
:Upendra Varma: And you've got
absolutely two people on your, you
500
:know, what you say, permanent payroll.
501
:Is that how we can see it?
502
:Right.
503
:So because everybody's a contractor.
504
:Melissa Kwan: um, yeah,
I don't pay myself.
505
:Um.
506
:Yes, I hope to, and, and, you know,
in the next few months, um, but you
507
:know, they're, they're, even if they're
a contractor, I would still consider
508
:them on payroll because they're,
I'm just paying them differently
509
:because they're far away, they're not
510
:Upendra Varma: And are
you profitable today?
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:Melissa Kwan: Uh, I think we hit our
first profitable quarter last quarter.
512
:But I don't pay myself.
513
:So this is a big, you know, this is a
big detail is if I did pay myself, then I
514
:can't, but I did sell a company in 2019.
515
:So I'm, I'm, you know, living,
living off the proceeds of that,
516
:um, which allows me to do what I do.
517
:Um, yeah.
518
:So I
519
:Upendra Varma: Going back to the
vision of your company in the
520
:Melissa Kwan: Yeah.
521
:The vision of my company, I
just number one, I want to pay
522
:myself, not a small salary.
523
:I want to pay myself a market salary.
524
:You know, I've been doing this for
13 years and the only two years I've
525
:ever had a real salary was when I sold
my previous company to a new company.
526
:All of those years when I was working for
myself, I was not getting a market salary.
527
:So I, I want to pay
myself a market salary.
528
:I want everyone on my team
to get a market salary.
529
:And my goal is just to make sure
everybody has a good time and live well.
530
:And if In the future, we sell this
company that would be a bonus, but
531
:it's not the thing that I'm going for.
532
:The thing I'm going for is freedom
and lifestyle and making sure everyone
533
:is taken care of and has a good time.
534
:Upendra Varma: And are you going
to raise VC funny and VC money?
535
:And are you going to sort of
chase that extraordinary growth?
536
:Melissa Kwan: never.
537
:I think I want to chase extraordinary
growth without VC money.
538
:I think that's key.
539
:Upendra Varma: Yeah.
540
:That's wonderful, Melissa.
541
:All right, Melissa, thanks for
taking the time to talk to me.
542
:It's a wonderful conversation, right?
543
:So hope you scale AWA now to
much, much greater heights.
544
:Melissa Kwan: Thanks so much.