Podcast Description:

In this episode of Gospel Talks, we sit down with Pastor Matt to explore his journey into ministry, the crucial role discipleship played in his growth, and the challenges of church planting. We discuss the his church planting model, the importance of longevity in ministry, and practical ways to equip believers for evangelism. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or believer seeking to share your faith more effectively, this episode is packed with wisdom and encouragement for building a lasting church community.

Chapter Markers:

00:00 Introduction to Evangelism and Discipleship

01:20 Pastor Matt's Journey to Ministry

04:55 Influence of Mentorship in Ministry

09:17 The Challenges of Church Planting

11:36 The Concept of the Meeting House

13:52 The Benefits of Longevity in Ministry

16:09 Creating a Lasting Church Community

18:52 Equipping Believers for Evangelism

23:27 Training for Effective Evangelism

28:39 The Joy of Coaching in Ministry

everybody to Gospel Talks podcast where we help Christians all over the world become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship. With me this week is Pastor Matt, and he's one of our exchange trainers. I'm of course Pastor George and one of your hosts that's on here every week. But I'm really excited to have Pastor Matt all the way from Wyndham, New Hampshire, and he's a senior pastor of Heritage Baptist.

He's one of our exchange trainers, which means he's ready. He's willing. He's capable to travel around to churches and if your church is in the north east there somewhere and You guys would be interested in an exchange seminar at your church. This is the guy to do it This is this is somebody who's very God's blessed and gifted and equipped in evangelism and teaching churches lay people how to do it as a matter of fact We're gonna get to that later. But before we jump into all that, why don't you why don't you tell us?

What was your childhood like? Where did you grow up? And how did God get you from there to being senior pastor, lead pastor at Heritage Baptist? Yeah, well, thank you, George. It's great to be here. It's quite the story, actually. I was born and raised in Denver, Colorado. So I lived 18 years of my life there before I went off to school. I was born into a family. My parents were believers, so they're believing people. They took me to church. But I would say, know, the church we were in wasn't

It wasn't vibrant, it necessarily growing. And then there was a man that came out to our area and started a church in our area. And I remember as a, I was probably 10, 11 year old boy going to meet at this church in a school. It had just started in a school. And we went to the gymnasium. And the coolest thing for me as a kid was I sat in a gymnasium and watched this pastor preach under a basketball. Because I love basketball.

Yeah. know, and I was just like all about that. So that was a major draw for me as a kid. But as I grew up, I realized how God used one man to come and start a church in our area and how that was really a turning point for me just in my whole life. The influence I would have because of that, the things God would do through my family because of that. And so that really later on in life impressed me to the point

where I thought if God would use me in that way, just to touch one person, one family, one life, my life would be well spent. And so that's kind of how God worked a desire for ministry in my heart. And I pursued that desire when I was 14, 15 years old. I just kind of surrendered to that and said, God, I'll do that, whatever you'd have me to do.

had some great mentors at church that invested in me and went off to study Bible, study seminary. And when I was in seminary, God brought this thing again to my heart about church planting and just the importance of it and the impact it could have. I saw it up close. So as a result of that, after I was married, my wife and I began praying about where God would have us start a church. And we visited

several parts around the country. Northern California, which was great need there. It was very comfortable to me. It was west. I'm from the west. But I'd had some exposure to a church in New England and got to know the people of New England. And I kind of joke with people that I'm kind of fit for New England, you know, a little cold and stodgy. So that goes well.

Actually, I tell people, New England, they say it to your face instead of behind your back. So I can totally appreciate that. But so that's how God kind of put New England on my heart. It was an internship I served at for several summers at a church in the area. And I just thought that there's a need. There's churches in New England, most of them don't believe the Bible, don't believe the gospel. And so just the real burden of reaching people with the truth of the gospel. And so it was

23, 24 years ago now, my wife and I and my young son moved into England and started Heritage Baptist Church. Same situation, I preached under a basketball hoop. started in a school, just like that. Eventually we were able to settle in a permanent location. so the Lord's hand's been on us since then, we praise the Lord for what he's done.

Nothing excites me more than seeing people come to Christ and grow in Christ and know that their lives are changing. So when we go back to that church in your early childhood that wasn't like really doing well and then you moved to this church plant, you, like how old were you when you guys moved to that church plant as a family? Yeah, so that's when I was 10, 11 years old, something like that. Do you have any recall as to why that church wasn't doing well? Do you remember anything about it? Yeah.

Uh, I do remember, I think there was an issue with the pastor, the leadership in the church. And so, uh, what actually ended up happening was, um, the church where we were going, there was a trouble with the leadership and the pastor moved on and they actually ended up joining with this new church plan. And so the other church plant kind of had the people, right. And the, uh, the excitement and the other church had a building, but they were kind of floundering.

And so the Lord worked it out that those two churches actually merged. I was actually able to go back to that church, I guess, and attend there. Wow. So this pastor that had such an impact on you and your family, what made him so impactful? I mean, I'm guessing he knew that you're headed to ministry. He's probably thrilled if, I don't know if he's still around, but on this side of glory. Yeah, he is. In fact, some of the folks who probably know him, his name's Matt Olson.

Wow. in Colorado. Wow. And that was my pastor growing up. he just, you know, whenever I talked to him as a young person, I remember he was interested in me. Yeah. And it wasn't just, you know, everything else going on around. He was interested in me, took a personal interest. To this day, you know, I can call him up and chat with him, you know, and so still have that. So which I really appreciate. But I just think

Having started a church in New England now and just knowing what that takes and all those steps and it gives me even more appreciation that he was willing to do that and come to Colorado all those years ago. And just it really had a profound influence on me. So what did taking an interest in Matt look like growing up? Like what did what kind of things Pastor Olson engaged in? he was, like I said, very much interested in day to day life. What was going on with me?

checking up with me at church, I remember skiing together with him. We would go skiing and I love to play basketball and I remember playing basketball with him on a basketball court, you know, and I think those were kind of strengthening aspects to our relationship that opened the door to deeper discussions and things going on in my life. So, yeah, I think it wasn't like one big thing necessarily. It was little things that

I think it took time to make sure our paths crossed. Well, often it is the little things. It's the little things that make a big difference. So you're in seminary, you intern in New England, and you guys get ready to plan a church. You're starting at gymnasium. Well, what did that look like from gymnasium? I know now you guys have built a beautiful building.

and the church is doing really well. You guys have seen God work tremendously there, which you don't hear that a lot these days. It seems like church plants get off the ground much slower these days. So what was it? What did that whole thing look like? Start to finish. Yeah, well, it was a ride for sure. OK, maybe just a little story. we were meeting at a middle school, maybe a mile and half from our house down the road, and we would go and set up the gymnasium.

And it was trashed from the week before and we'd have to go in and pick up trash and clean the place up and make it decent. But we made it work. But early on, I would actually drive by a place where there was another church that was starting. And this place was like packed out with people. And I would drive by that going to meet with just a handful of people.

Get discouraged much? There were times where I was like, Lord, what am I doing here? know, this, when you're church planting, you're thinking, oh yeah, there's going to be, you know, just these crowds of people. And it's just, yeah, we always have these visions. And I think you need that. need to be positive. With thematic music playing in the background, right? Yeah. That's right. Exactly. And so, um, the Lord had to really do a work in my heart in that time, those early times to say that, that church

planting church growth isn't numerical per se, right? It's always individual. I have these few people, but are these people, how much more like Jesus are they now than when I met them? And that's growth. That's real growth. And so, I got to do that work early on in my life just to show me that it's that kind of growth that you really want to be after. And that's...

I think that in turn lends itself to numerical growth because people are really growing personally in themselves and now they're sharing that with other people. But that's really the Lord had to do that work early on in my life. the church, like I said, we met in this gymnasium for a number of years there and I think I turned a corner there, really just started focusing on the people that God had given us and we were still reaching out and we were seeing growth in that building.

And then really, by God's grace, he enabled us to purchase some land in the area. It was about five years in. So we met in that school for about five years. And here's an interesting story. I got the men of the church together and we're talking about long-term strategy in the church. And I said, you know, we need like 10 acres of property on a main road here in Southern New England. And there's a guy in our church, old New Englander, you know,

accent and everything. And he said, I was at that meeting and he says, when pastor Matt said that, I thought this guy's not from around here. He's crazy. He's talking millions of dollars. That'll never happen. You know, and it was just a few years ago at our, I think it was our 15th, maybe our 20th anniversary that he's like, I remember being in that meeting, thinking this guy was crazy. And here we are, you know, just 10, 15 years later on eight acres on a main road in Southern New Hampshire. Wow. He said,

it blows my mind every time I think about it. So only God can do that, right? The church isn't building and all those things, but I think it's through those things that God builds people. And they see how God provides those things and how God is working and how God can do things that we think are impossible. But if they advance his kingdom and his purposes, he doesn't. Yeah, I hate when people, I hate that we say that. I do it all the time, I beat myself up a little bit. like, we say, I'm gonna go to church.

No, I'm going to a church, I'm going to the church's building. I'm not going to church. Church is, you know, these people. And so I think we've even so attached the idea of church to buildings that we may have put ourselves a little bit in a box in terms of thinking you have to have a building to do church and you don't. No, you don't. In fact, we intentionally, I didn't want to lose that kind of...

mindset in our church because we had met in so many different places. A school, we met for an entire summer one summer outside on a tent in our property before we developed it. We've met in community buildings, you know, and I didn't want to lose this sense of now our church has changed because we have a permanent facility that, you know, houses all of our ministries. So we intentionally now refer to our new church building as the meeting house.

It's the place where the church meets. And we, of all people, know that our church can meet anywhere because we've done it in so many different places. And that's not what makes us who we are. But God has provided this meeting house and we're thankful for it. I like that. I'm going to use that meeting house. That's a wonderful way to couch it. So you've been at this, this has been your post in ministry. This church is where you've been for what? 23 years now. So have you ever thought about?

doing something else, going somewhere else? I'm guessing offers have come up. There's always churches looking for pastors. So, I mean, why have you stayed in this one place for 23 years? Well, you know, there have been other opportunities that, and my approach is never, I'm looking for the next opportunity, but if God provides something, I should not just overlook it. And so when those have come, you know, my wife and I have taken hard looks at them.

and to see what the opportunities are. honestly, it's just whenever I think about that, I think about the faces of people that I have seen come to Christ and now grow in Christ. And I think of leaving that and it tears my heart out. And I'm like, I don't think I could do that. Not that I couldn't at some point, right?

But I think as long as God still has that really kind of close-knitness in my heart with that, it would be really hard to do. And it would have to be very clear and maybe an exceptional opportunity of influence that I knew God was giving me that I could move to. But I just haven't really sensed that to this point. What have been the benefits of being in the same place for 23 years? Oh, yeah.

There really are a lot of benefits. You build a lot of strong personal relationships. You build, I don't want to be tried about it. You build a little cache in that I can say things to people now because they know that I love them. There may be some hard things, but the bridge is strong enough to bear the weight of it. And maybe there are hard things that they need to hear that are helpful. But I know that

we've been around the block enough and there's been enough time and investment that that will land well with them. And I think it might be what they really need to hear. Whereas if you're in a ministry for a short time, it's hard to get there. You're still feeling people out for a while. But the longevity, I think, enables you to have deeper conversations and really deal with necessary things.

When we left Northwest Valley Baptist Church to go to Africa and plant, came back two and a half, three years later, there were so many people in the church we didn't recognize. In your church, have you seen the congregation turn over a lot or have you been able to see the same, know, keep a majority of the people? How's that been over the years? it really has been a consistent addition. We don't really see a lot of people leaving.

Some people move from the area, you know, and they'll move away. But we've got people that have been with us for 23 years. You know, and people can kind of set their benchmark. Yeah, I started attending church here. You know, this was 10, 15 years ago. I started here. And so it has been, I think, just a consistent addition. It's not been wild swings of growth, with the exception these past couple of years. You know, if you build a building, there's excitement there that you get a little more.

publicity and just in the community when people drive by. But it's been fairly consistent growth each year and been stable that way. So that is actually so rare for people to hang on to... People tend to... I mean, we have a transient society, so that I think accounts for probably about half of it, but the other half is a lot of people leave churches hurt. What...

for you as a pastor, you don't have to be a pastor listening to this, but you can just be a fellow Christian or somebody who attends a church or is a lay leader. What's the key to creating a kind of church that you actually can hang on to people for a long time? What are the things that drive people away? Yeah, that's really a good question. And I don't know that I've really actually put thought into that and said, here's exactly what we're doing. I think some of it is...

the region of the country in which we live, right? New England's not so transient. People are generational there and it's a corner of our nation where you're not just passing through, you're kind of settled. That would just be my secular reasoning on that. In a church culture though, I've always been of the conviction that I don't really have a lot to offer as a pastor. I'm not real charismatic and

I don't have these great stories every week and these amazing things that happen to me. But what I do know is that God's Word is true and it's powerful. And if I can just every week do my part to mine the truths of God's Word and put who God is before them and give people a big God, not a shallow God, a big God. If I can do that each week,

know that and they'll come back to it and they'll hang on to it. What I tell folks is a lot of times people come to church and they're looking for, know, I'm in trouble with my marriage. Give me the five things that will save my marriage. I'm in trouble with my finances. Give me some kind of program that's going to help get me on my feet or whatever. What I just try to relate to people is look, we all have those kinds of issues, but you may not hear those issues directly addressed here in our congregation. There's some help that we can give you.

But if I can get you to know who God is and change your view of your whole life the way that he views it, those things will change. They're not going to change in the way you think they'll change. But what's going to happen is God's going to change you. And when he changes you, now there's something different in the equation. And those things will change because you're changing. So I think just to try to keep that before people, we have these core values in our church.

The first one is centered on God. And that is, God isn't something that we bring into our life to help us. No, we center our lives around Him. And when we do that, we're kind of calibrating our compass in the right direction. And so we know how to navigate life because we're on center. And then we want to be grounded in His truth. We know God through what He has said. And so we spend a lot of time in teaching and instruction and knowing who God is by what He's revealed.

And then we don't want to just be like the Dead Sea, all input and no outgoing. So we have to be focused on others. And that's the last thing. And I think when we do those two things, it does help people focus on others. And that's what builds community. Because we're all centered on the same thing. And that's a big deal these days. Community is very, very important to people. Unfortunately, I don't know if you've noticed this, a lot of corporations, Fortune 500 companies,

have become better at community than local churches and people are finding their community at work, whereas work was just a place to work and you got to find your community elsewhere. Now, these workplaces have realized, you know, one of the best tools we have for retention is creating community. And there's more potlucks happening at some of the companies down the road from us than there is happening at church anymore. And it's one of those things that's a super vital ingredient. I know for you that at your church, you guys are growing, you guys are seeing

God do tremendous things. I know that one of the things that you've been very, very key in and leading your church is you love to equip believers. You love to train people. You're a good teacher and not just you help people put things into practice. And I feel like one of the things you come across in church is people feeling like evangelism today is impossible, or they have to have a seminary education to do evangelism.

or do any kind of ministry, how have you successfully trained people, seen people successfully get trained in evangelism? What do you feel like are the things pastors or leaders have to help their people overcome? What would you say to the listener who isn't a pastor or leader, how do they overcome their fears about evangelism, their hesitancy? Yeah, yeah, those are all great questions. You know, I truly believe that

a true child of God, they in their heart of hearts want to evangelize. They know the gospel, they know it's transformed their life, and they really want to do that. In fact, if you've ever led someone to Christ, you know the sense of that. And when that happens in my life, I go away thinking I could do this every day all the time, right? And all that is just confirming, I think, of the Spirit of God that this is what I've called you to do.

One of the things that we have to do though is equip people to do that in that we're removing some of the barriers to that. And I think some of the barriers are we recognize the importance of evangelism in the gospel. And maybe one of the barriers is fear, but fear in this way, I don't want to mess this up. It's so important. I mean, what if I leave something out? And so what has really been helpful

Obviously, it was taught you need to evangelize, but exactly to sit down and say, okay, here's how it happens. Well, when I actually did an internship at a church during that summer, they did something called evangelism explosion. was a while back. And that was the first time someone sat down and said, okay, here's how you're going to do this. And just that kind of process suddenly hit my mind that yeah, you've got to teach people by showing them.

And that was really a turning point in our church where I think people said, as a church plant, was Pastor Matt is out evangelizing people and seeing them come in. That was the point where it's, no, we're all doing this. And we're all going out and seeing people evangelized and bringing them in. And I think what the exchange did is it overcame that fear for them. I'm going to mess this up. No, you're not. Here's just a simple tool. You can cater it to you, but it's a tool that will help you.

and at least keep you on track. And very effective. The Bible study in particular was very, very effective, so much so that we had training again a couple of years later and four times in our church actually over the course of their church's history. And what's really exciting is...

is when you have people like in the third time we had the training, they were actually saved by someone giving the exchange earlier. So now they were come to Christ of the exchange and now they're being trained to do that in the next seminar. We've had that happen a couple of times, which is really exciting. So somebody in your congregation, they've been led to Christ, they've been baptized, they're growing in their maturity, they know how to read the Bible, they know how to pray.

and they come to you and say, let's say this Sunday, this theoretical person walks up to you says, Pastor Matt, I really want to be able to lead somebody to Christ. So where do you start with them? What does that concretely look like? Yep, yep. So I would start with them and I would say, let's you and I do the exchange together. And we're going to play, I'm trying to lead you to Christ. And I would just go and do the Bible study with them.

and say, here's how it works, here's how it would be involved, and then lead them through the steps of that. We would do it over time. Maybe we'd do that in a couple of sittings. I think that's a way of training them, you're seeing me do it. I have done it as well recently. I think it was very helpful when there was someone, the young man that came to our church that didn't know the Lord, he was interested in the gospel. And so I took another young man in our church who did know the Lord.

and the three of us got together and did the exchange. And so we all participated that way. This other young man hadn't done it before. So he's kind of watching me do it with this guy, but he's involved too. And I told him, I said, I'm going to do this so that when I'm done, the next one's for you and you're going to do the next one. And so just kind of that, I think people need that on the job kind of training, right? And that's helpful. That's where I would begin. I would do the exchange with them.

maybe even get them involved with me doing the exchange with somebody else and then help them to see that process. Well, yeah, I isn't that what Jesus did with his disciples is he took them with him. How many times as pastors do we do all these things behind the scenes in ministry or outside of Sunday, but we don't take anybody with us. We don't take a young man. And I get it. There's some things, there's some meetings I can't take anybody with, but there are actually sometimes that it's better

to have two or three. As a matter of fact, I've noticed my schedule, I don't know if it's like this for you, but it's gotten so overwhelmed with individual meetings that what I've started to do is think to myself, okay, of all these 18 guys I meet with regularly, which one of them would get along with each other? And now I've started meeting groups of two or three. And what that does is like creates, it helps them have more relationships in the church than just me, so it's healthy in that way. But then these guys get to kind of,

sharpen each other or minister to each other. Often when you meet with an unsafe person, it's good to have more than one person in the room and more than one perspective. And I think what really helps with that too, if you're doing that kind of training, is let's say this person does come to Christ. have my trainee as it were, and I have this person that's come to Christ. Now I've kind of established a relationship with them and I've said, okay, here's a new baby. And now you have this relationship.

And now I can kind of coach this person and say, here's the next step you ought to do with them. And it creates that relationship. So we try to do that just as a natural flow when people come into our church. We don't have a written policy about this. But if someone's new to our church and they want to join our church, I want them to do the exchange with somebody in our church. It does a couple of things. It keeps exchange...

people fresh in our congregation, right? They're doing it. I know they're looking for people to do it with that are lost, but here's someone new to the church, and they're doing it with them. And then this new person into the church, they're making a contact. They're making a relationship with somebody in the church. And I, as a pastor, now know that someone new to our church, they're gonna get a very clear gospel presentation.

And it helps me to know at least that they've had a very clear understanding of the gospel. It's been explained to them in great detail. And one of my jobs as a pastor is that I think everyone that comes through our door should have that opportunity and be able to hear that. And then even if they do know the Lord, let's say it's a person that does know the Lord, but they've done the exchange with somebody else in our church. Now I can say, well, I think they're trained enough where now they can do that with somebody else that they know. And I'm going to encourage them in their circle of influence.

to use that tool to be able to share Christ with people that they know. That's like almost exactly the approach I've recently started taking. So there's a guy that came and visited church. This lady in our church invited him. She's one of our widows and he's her next door neighbor. He's very young. He's like in his early 30s. So she introduced him to me. He told me about his background. I immediately thought,

this guy and this guy would be perfect. So I asked one of our, the leader of our addictions ministry, Sasso, to come to lunch with me and him and I had so many exchange Bible studies going on personally that I knew I didn't have capacity for this guy and I said, Scott, Sasso, I think you guys should have an exchange. Like we got to know each other enough over lunch that I could say, hey guys, like what do you guys think about you two meeting and doing the exchange Bible study? And they both loved it and...

He came to Christ, God came to Christ, and the Lord has transformed his life. He's getting ready for baptism. but that's, I think we can do that. We can be super connectors for our people. Somebody, everybody comes up to the pastors, right? But sometimes connecting with somebody else can be a little harder for some reason. But I think just a little push that way helps people, you know. I don't think people don't wanna do that. Maybe they're just, they're just not quite sure. And if we can just think creatively in ways that I can actually help people make those connections.

And I think it's taking confidence in those people, right? One of the things I think as pastors we have to get over with is, well, it's not exactly the way I would do it, right? I think everybody should do it the way I would do it. Well, not necessarily. God's gifted people in different ways. I want to make sure you know what you're doing, give you good tools that way, but I have all the confidence in the world that the Spirit of God lives in you and that you'll be able to take on that responsibility and that role of sharing the gospel with this person.

And I'm cheering you on from the sideline. You know, I've heard it said and it's true. think in my stage of ministry now, I get more joy out of coaching than playing. Early on, it was like I'm doing all these Bible studies and trying to these people in and everyone walks through the door. I want to do the Bible study with that one. You there's ripe fruit right there. Yeah. Now I think I get more joy out of just recently, I had a man in our church that did exchange training. He led a young man from India.

to the Lord in our church, Hindu, and he's telling me about it and texting me about it. And to me, that was just like the best. I mean, just to hear how all of that went down and he's going to baptize them on Easter Sunday, Lord. Wow. And it was just awesome. So those are the things that really get me going now is to see that people are trained and when they're using their gifts and how God's multiplying his work that way. I think what I love most about

just this whole interview has been, you know, started right off the bat with, I'm not like one of those crazy dynamic, you know, super, super cool teachers with all the cool, you know, slideshows and presentations and stories. But it's the power of God's word. And I feel like the more we lean on our charisma or our personalities or talents, the less we lean on God's word. And really it is the difference maker in any ministry.

is we can't change people, but God's word can. So, I so much appreciate that. Thank you so much, Pastor Matt, for joining us, and thank you for your wisdom, just telling us what's going on in your ministry. So, if you guys are in that New England area, and you'd love for somebody to come and show you guys how to use the exchange, what he does repeatedly with his own congregation, I know Pastor Matt would love to do that.

And so we'd love to make that happen. can email me george at exchangemessage.org and I can help try to set things up and figure out a time that works for both the church and Pastor Matt. And so thank you so much for your ministry Pastor Matt. Thank you guys for listening. If you haven't subscribed, please hit that subscribe button. It helps us a lot. And share this podcast with somebody that you find it might be helpful with. Share it with your pastor. Share it with your parents. Share it with leaders in your church.

I really appreciate this audience so much. know you guys have supported us so well. We love you. And we'll see you guys next week. Thank you.