TITLE: Histamine Intolerance, Menopause & Estrogen: The Hidden Link Hurting Women’s Health

ABOUT THE GUEST: Virginia Ziulu is a qualified Nutritional Therapist with over 12 years of experience in women’s health, lipedema, perimenopause, menopause, inflammatory conditions, and histamine intolerance. She runs a global online and in-person clinic, offering personalized 1:1 nutrition programs and functional testing to help women optimize their health. A former lipedema patient and cancer survivor, Virginia combines clinical expertise with lived experience to empower her clients.

EPISODE DESCRIPTION: In our first episode of 2025, we welcome Virginia Ziulu to explore the hidden connection between histamine intolerance and menopause, a topic that affects countless women yet remains widely misunderstood. We dive into the role of mast cells, antihistamines, and genetics, uncovering why some women are more prone to histamine intolerance during perimenopause and menopause. Virginia also sheds light on the link between viral infections like Epstein-Barr, autoimmune conditions, and long COVID, explaining how they contribute to hormonal imbalances and immune dysfunction. Beyond symptoms, we discuss practical strategies for managing histamine intolerance, including the role of gut health, diet, magnesium, hormone replacement therapy (HRT), and insulin resistance. Virginia shares why testing for hormone levels, and reducing stress are critical tools for self-advocacy and symptom relief.

IN THIS EPISODE: 

[7:45] The Histamine Bucket: How histamine builds up and overflows, triggering symptoms.

[13:07] Histamine Rebound Effect: Why stopping antihistamines or foods can worsen symptoms temporarily.

[18:57] MTHFR Mutation: How genetics impact histamine metabolism and hormone regulation.

[25:00] Epstein-Barr: Viral infections linked to autoimmune conditions and histamine issues.

[26:00] Long Covid: How viral reactivation affects immune health and histamine intolerance.

[31:00] Perimenopause - What Happens & When: Hormonal shifts, symptoms, and their impact on histamine levels.

[34:00] Eczema & Menstruation Connection: How hormone fluctuations trigger skin inflammation and histamine reactions.

[39:00] Stress & Perimenopause: Why stress worsens symptoms and disrupts hormonal balance.

[42:00] Vitamin D: Take in the Morning: Best timing for Vitamin D to support hormones and immunity.

[44:00] Magnesium Types: Different forms of magnesium and their health benefits.

[48:00] Breast Cancer, Lipedema & HRT Alternatives: Managing symptoms with non-hormonal therapies and lifestyle changes.

[52:00] Insulin Resistance & Type 3 Diabetes: The link between hormones, metabolism, and cognitive health.

[53:00] Food & Histamine: How diet influences histamine levels and intolerance symptoms.

[56:00] Histamine-Releasing Foods: Why fermented foods like sauerkraut and kimchi may trigger histamine reactions.

PLUCK THIS! SEGMENT: 

• Virginia’s is offering a FREE Histamine Guide! On Instagram, comment HISTAMINE on Episode 11 Reel or email me at spencer@spencerita.com to receive the document. 

TOP TAKEAWAYS: 

• Estrogen fluctuations during perimenopause can activate mast cells.
• Histamine is a neurotransmitter that can provoke inflammation.
• Antihistamines can have side effects, including reducing DAO enzyme levels.
• Gut health is crucial for breaking down histamine effectively.
• Genetic testing can help identify predispositions to histamine intolerance.
• Methylation pathways are important for processing histamine and hormones.
• Insulin resistance worsens during perimenopause and menopause.
• Dietary choices significantly impact histamine intolerance.

RESOURCES:

Virginia Ziulu on Instagram: @virginiashealthcorner

Virginia's Website: https://www.virginiashealthcorner.ie/

DISCLAIMER: The information provided in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only and is not intended to diagnose, treat, cure, or prevent any disease or medical condition. This content should not be considered medical advice or a substitute for professional healthcare guidance. Always consult with a qualified healthcare provider before making any medical decisions, starting a new treatment, or altering your health regimen.

ABOUT THE HOST: Spencer Moore is a creative professional, creative wellness advocate, and host of The Hairy Chin Podcast. Originally from Raleigh, NC, Spencer has resided in Barcelona, Spain since 2016. Her warmth, humor and authenticity bring light to tough conversations about female wellness. Drawing from personal battles with chronic illness and early-stage breast cancer, she is committed to breaking taboos and empowering women in their health journeys. 

Website: www.spencerita.com

Welcome to the Hairy Chin Podcast. I'm Spencer Moore, your host, here to explore the good, the bad, the hairy and the fabulous of female health. Join us for eye-opening conversations, myth-busting insights, and relatable stories that celebrate the realities of womanhood. And don't miss our Pluck This! segment for tangible takeaways from each episode. Life takes a village, let's do this together.

Hi, Virginia.

Hello, Spencer.

Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for being here.

You're very welcome.

Today, we have a great episode where we are talking about histamine intolerance and menopause, which is such a great conversation. I'm really excited to dive into this because menopausal symptoms are such, they're so famous and that women really suffer through menopause. And they're all these symptoms that come up. And so I love this conversation of kind of diving deeper into those symptoms and that there could be other causes and just kind of this umbrella of menopause. Right. Yes, absolutely. And so today we are talking with Virginia Ziulu. She is a practitioner in Ireland. And let me give you a bit of an introduction. Virginia Ziulu. Of Virginia's Health Corner is a fully qualified and insured nutritional therapist with over 12 years experience in the health and wellbeing industry. Virginia has a busy in person and online worldwide clinic with over 200 plus hours of clinical experience. She is trained in functional medicine and offers bespoke 1:1 nutrition programs in the areas of lipedema, female hormones, perimenopause, menopause, inflammatory conditions and histamine issues. Virginia uses and recommends functional testing in her clinic, providing a detailed and personalized test interpretation to all of her clients. Virginia is also a former lipedema patient and cancer survivor and mother of two. Welcome.

Thank you.

So that touches on actually a lot of things that we've talked about here in this podcast of just the Hairy Chin Podcast. I had a great episode with Kristen Richards about lipedema. I also had a really great episode, with Corinne Ellsworth-Beaumont about breast cancer. Now you are a cancer survivor. Which cancer?

Hodgkin's lymphoma. So blood cancer? Hodgkin's lymphoma? Yes.

Okay. So I suppose my experience started from clinical experience. And then it went to personal experience as well. So I have studied histamine more than any other topic so far, even more than lipedema shall I say that? But yeah. So menopause. I suppose we need to start with defining menopause and dividing menopause into two stages. So the early stage of menopause, which is perimenopause, which is precede in the years preceding your and, you know, your final menstrual cycle, which could start from the age of 35. Up until about, as you said, 49 to 51. Usually when you have to be one full year without a cycle to be classified as menopausal. So it's a bit of a bumpy ride until you get there. So I suppose, yeah, the histamine intolerance comes in in both time. So perimenopause and post menopause, but it's more prevalent around perimenopause where the symptoms can become quite pronounced. In menopause. I still see it, but not as much as I see it perimenopause, which is very those very years. And there is a reason for that. So what I found clinically with clients was if so in perimenopause estrogen actually fluctuates so much that you have periods of very low estrogen and periods of very high estrogen. And the problem is the symptoms the women get the aches, aches, the pains, the anxiety, depression. All those symptoms that you listed are due to these fluctuations because women normally, you know, cycling women, you'll have a steady influx of hormones. Yes. They've shook to weight, but not that much compared to perimenopause where they literally drop and spike, drop and spike. So estrogen the the issue is that estrogen predominantly activates the mast cells, which are the ones that release histamine then. So it's kind of a, you know, one activates the other situation. So when there is too much estrogen in the body, in the case of obviously this fluctuation, there are happening, mast cells gets activated for no specific allergic reason. And that's when histamine gets released. So that's the hormonal component that I have come across. So estrogen activates these inflammatory pathways. But I also found with the fluctuations. So when it drops it can also cause mast cells to activate. So it's a kind of a it's both situations. But I found it mainly with high estrogen levels. It's sort of a, switch to the muscle. That's the hormonal component leaving the inflammatory component aside. So that is just purely hormonal. The problem is when women experience these fluctuations, there is inflammation as well. Because estrogen, obviously estrogen are also good to protect our immune system. And good levels of estrogen are key. Well, not too much. Not too little. Good. Good levels are key to support our immune function and actually reduce inflammation. So if we start to lose them little by little and you know also we lose progesterone as well. Progesterone is another hormone that causes the mast cell activation when there's too little of it. So when women go through perimenopause they ovulation they start to ovulate less. So they have a ovulation cycles very frequent. So they don't ovulate. And if they don't ovulate don't produce progesterone. So there is a huge drop. But these hormones what what does it do. It actually stabilize the mast cells so that you have the fluctuations and then the loss of progesterone. These combination really triggers histamine intolerance. And then you add food. Then you had obviously triggers. Then your body I call it the histamine bucket. So if we fill the body with too much histamine from the outside of environment as well, aside from hormones. So we get too much high histamine foods and then we get the environmental histamine. So toxic perfumes, environmental plastics, anything like that can also trigger mast cells. If you add all these things, then we can see why we have such a high prevalence of histamine intolerance. The body just isn't able to clear all these histamine. So. Right. The main. Okay. So then how I found that on myself. So histamine can get of mast cells can get triggered by viruses as well. So that's why we have such a high prevalence of histamine problems since Covid because obviously was one of the main virus. The affect is everyone all over the world. So we have so mast cells. What are mast cells. What is system it. So mast cells are immune cells that we have all over the body, including our brain, our connective tissue, our heart or skin, adipose tissue. And they are the most responsive, in acute reactions. So for example, the urticaria. So the typical skin reaction that is the first line of immune response that you get when you're exposed to an allergen, for instance

And now I would say in the United States, this is called hives. Right. So urticaria here and in Europe it's more urticaria. But in in the United States we do call it hives. And yes, it's an allergic response to that. Yeah.

For example, to the sun. So these mast cells that are all over the skin respond to release. Releasing histamine and histamine is a neurotransmitter. It's a chemical that it promotes vasodilation promotes basically the role is to provoke inflammation. It provokes inflammation to help you to get rid of the inflammation. So it promotes the right environment. For example, if you get a cut in your hand, it promotes the right environment to heal that course. So it actually promotes vasodilation which is expanding of your blood vessels. It creates obviously, bleeding to allow obviously all the immune cells to come together to fix that course because the alert's the immune system basically. So there is some changes in structural changes. Obviously the vasodilation, it's all to do for immune system recruitment. So you recruit other parts of the immune system to act fast. So that's why you have the reaction so histamine is not bad. We do need some histamine to alert in a case of anaphylactic shock, for instance, or in a real, you know, situation. But sometimes these mast cells react when they shouldn't be reactive and we just get these all over the immune response find that a lot of the audience might understand histamine in terms of antihistamine. Right. Because there's a lot of medication in the United States, we call it Benadryl. It's it's different in every country. And so this is to prevent histamine right. Antihistamines. So I think it makes it seem like histamine is bad.

Like we don't want histamine. But like you're saying histamine is good for the body in certain ways. But these antihistamines lower the histamine response to lower the allergy response. Correct.

Yes. And we get into a very interesting topic there. So antihistamines obviously yes. They're like there's so many different types. You have H1 which is your Benadryl H2 and they three which is the new generation given for depression.

So histamine is actually a neurotransmitter but it is excitatory so it excite the brain. But he also is the reason why you get anxiety because excite it's an excitatory neurotransmitter. So that's it speed things up. So if it's in the gut, diarrhea, if it's in the skin, you know, the rashes, the hives, the itching. And so it speeds things up and it excites the brain.

So for, for instance, yeah, the antihistamine, it depends like most of our receptors are H1 receptor. So we have it in the brain. All of our body is mostly H1. But there is H2 for instance in the gastrointestinal tract. So one of the causes of reflux it's also related to high histamine. And that's another type of antihistamine you need to use.

Then H3 is very rarely used for antidepressants because you don't want you do want some histamine in the brain. You don't want too much, but you do want some histamine in the brain. The problem with antihistamine is that they can reduce the treating. So use they can be used long term by medical indication. But antihistamines can reduce an enzyme called Dao.

If you use them too frequently. And that's a problem because Dao or breaks down your histamine in the gut So that means that if you take them on a regular basis, maybe high dosages, for instance, Benadryl is over-the-counter, but you can take 180 up to 200mg prescription based antihistamine. The problem is when you stopped them,you have the rebound effect.

So your histamine can actually double and you have way worse symptoms than you ever had before. That's why they wean you off. Like quarter and a half. And then the second day, you never should stop antihistamine like that straight away. You should always wean slowly with the help of a professional. But the problem is they can also reduce stomach acid because stomach acid, some of these antihistamine are meant to stop acidity, and stop in the gastrointestinal tract, which is not great because that can promote, gut infections, SIBO, H pylori because it's affecting the pH of the stomach as well.

So two things. The third thing could be obviously potentially dry skin because antihistamine dry dries everything. So it dries mucus. It dries every mucous membrane of the body so it can promote dryness. And obviously we know that and dehydration. So we know that's not great either. So I think they are quite lifesaving if you use them for the types of MCAS

But you need to make sure you are, counteracting the side effects if you use them every day as a treatment Yeah. think that is interesting because I'm not sure that everybody that that the common general population knows that the overuse of antihistamines is a real problem. It can really disrupt the whole body.

And so I think that it's kind of common to have an allergy reaction, especially during allergy season, hay fever and things like that. And your allergies continue. So you just keep taking the medication. So I think it's really good advice to talk to your doctor to always wean off this medication. One thing that I will talk about later, but that really did surprise me is food.

There's histamine releasing food, and I really want to get into that later. But, there's there's a low histamine diet that you can go on with food. It is a quite restrictive diet because a lot of foods release histamine or have high histamine. And one of these foods is fermented foods like kombucha, which a lot of people think are really good for the stomach.

But if you were having a histamine intolerance and you are having these allergic reactions, you want to stay away from foods like avocado, which is told to have such good healthy fats. But it's not good for histamine intolerance. So we're going to get into that later just to kind of let people, if they want to hear about that, they can hang around.

What I would love to do, we've talked about histamine. I would love to talk about, what you mentioned, and we kind of got off topic of the DAO in the, in the gut, and how that's related to histamine and what that means. Your gut health is so trending right now. It's so big, but it's big because it's so important.

Yeah I'd love to talk about that.

Crucial. So basically the way the body breaks down is the so let's say we have a big histamine rush from a muscle activation due to any, any due to food for instance. the body has to break down this histamine. And there's two pathways. So there's the DOA in the gut. So it breaks down your histamine at a gut level.

And then if you have regularly you know high enzyme activity you just get rid of it in the urine mainly. You know, and that's like kidneys process histamine. The other pathway which is less talked about is the methylation pathway. So it's the HNMT enzyme which is the one unfortunately responsible for all the brain inflammation. So all the brain fog, the anxiety.

That's the neuro type of enzyme. So I call it the Neuro enzyme in the Gut enzyme. So you want to be having both of them functioning really, really well. If you have histamine intolerance. You might also have some genetic snips that will snips or just, genetic mutations that make you less like able to break down histamine in both pathways.

So they DOA snips and then you have the HNMT and other pathways. So you need to know your genetics when it comes to histamine, I always do a genetic test just to rule out if it is DAO, then fine, we do know that we need to support that pathway. If it is the methylation pathway, we do know that it's really important to support that. DAO can be taken as a supplement, but it's quite expensive and I find the most beneficial one is from pork. So it's from animal based origin. And the plant based just doesn't do the same job. Not as good as animal based. And it has been proven. So, you know, the pork version is the enzyme the works best. Then the other thing about menopause is progesterone helps to boost DAO enzyme.

in particular progesterone. So when progesterone declines, the DAO also declines. So that's why women also experience these gut, like bloating would be one of the main reasons. So bloating indigestion diarrhea or irregular bowel movements. These can also be linked to histamine intolerance.

So with the lack of the progesterone that is giving us a nice boost of DAO, especially on the luteal phase, we are also losing the ability to break it down. So that's one of the gut factor. And then the methylation a lot of women are deficient in MTHFR gene, well deficient, have a mutation or some some sort of the MTHFR gene which affects how you process certain things.

So drugs, hormones, histamine, and how your yes, how you metabolize histamine. So if you have one of those, you just need to look after your methylationAnd I've talked about this actuall I have the MTHFR mutation. I have it both alleles, it’s homozygous, and almost all of the podcast episodes that I've done tell you about female health, this has come up in one way or another.

There's a significant percentage of just the general population that has this genetic mutation. Not not on both, but there's a significant it has one or both, and it comes up everywhere in your health.

And so I do think that it's very important if you're dealing with chronic health or if you have symptoms that you just can't quite nail down.

This genetic testing gives you so much information because your methylation methylation pathways are how you clear toxins from your body. They deal with histamine like you said, histamine intolerance. There's a really strong correlation between methylation pathways and mental health. So depression and anxiety, it really head to toe can affect the body. So I love that you brought that up because I know personally it has changed a lot in my health plans and knowing that I have this mutation.

Yes, exactly. And you can test for it again, I always I love using genetic testing, but I use them with a context. So regional genetic testing again if you have the MTHFR for it doesn't mean that you actually are having MTHFR symptoms. So I always pair them together. So if we have snips for instance, for histamine, I always put together with for a blood test or a urine test.

So I always say the present and the predispositions have to come to match together because you can be on average supplement in the world because your have a choline snip because you have that snip. But then you just test your levels and you're actually fine. So you're like, okay, well, I have a predisposition. I need to make sure I'm getting enough choline or enough B12, but I'm fine.

So it has to be taken with a pinch of salt as well. So not all snips are a death sentence. Basically. So exactly. That's very true because it because if you look for everything, you always find something. Yes. And if you think that it's, you know, you have to take it in context exactly of how you're feeling and how your symptoms. I, I love that perspective. Very nice. Okay. you were talking about progesterone

Let me say you're talking about the gut and the neuro in the methylation.

Yes. So, DAO is in the gut So breaks down histamine in the gut and progesterone lowers these enzymes.

Also other factors diminish these enzymes your gut infections. So if you have parasites big one parasites or if you have Candida, if you have any, if you have mold, if you have mold, toxicity, your DAO is not going to function very well because any gut, so DAO is produced in the gut in the lining of the gut specifically.

So if you have any of these pathogens, you're going to have a problem with the lining and the mucosal health of your gut. So your DAO and going to be produced, it's a problem in the gut itself. So until you fix the root cause I always go off to the root cause because I just can't accept.

Oh, yeah, we're just slow on this, and we just eat the enzyme forever. I'm like, hold on. Can we make the, gut like, 100% or 90% so that we can make our own DAO, although we're low in progesterone. So we're taking all the factors together and maximize, the chances we have or producing the DAO Basically, that's what we're doing.

The methylation is a little tricky because you don't want to mess up with methylation. So you don't want to over methylate or well under it's obviously a problem, but you want to be in the middle because if you over methylate that can also be a problem. So methylation obviously if you're speeding up methylation for histamine, you're also speeding up for hormones.

So you're also speeding up your DNA methylation. So like if you have had for instance breast cancer, you don't want to speed up methylation too much because that's gene replication. So methylation also is involved in replication of cells. So

I always consider everything but should be in the middle night in the middle, you know, not low not high right in the middle. So you can test for different type of methylation activity in the body. So hormones and other type of methylation. So yeah I to me it's really really important when it comes to histamine intolerance. So when it comes to the viral activation of let's say of mast cells So the histamine problems that comes a lot of people, mainly my work in the clinic now is all about long Covid, MCAS.

Within the legitimate community as well a lot unfortunately and more toxicity. So you're constantly having something that is triggering the activation of these muscles. So of course the low histamine diet which will come separately can help. But your body there is a viral component that is constantly activating your immune system. So it's nothing to do with you have ingested.

Of course, you have to be careful of how much you put in, but if your body is responding to the attacker inside where with viral is usually spike proteins still being present in the body and it's, you know, continuously activated the immune system. So in the case of long Covid is the virus that's lingering in parts of your body.

So it could be the lungs could be the heart. And it's continuously giving symptoms and activating the immune system. So that's one example for long Covid. Yeah

one of the conversations I had was with a woman diagnosed with multiple sclerosis. And we talked about the prevalence of autoimmune disease in women in that episode. It's very high 80% autoimmune is female led.

But we talked about Epstein-Barr vaccine bar virus and how that can lay dormant in the body and activate. Do you find that a lot of your patients, are positive for Esptein-Barr or do you test for Epstein-Barr?

I have a personal hate hate love relationship with Epstein-Barr because, yeah, because it's for a personal reason, Hodgkins Lymphoma has been linked with Epstein-Barr infection.

So there is a very high percentage, some studies linked. So we have the non-Hodgkin's, which is linked to pesticides. And we have the Hodgkin’s which is linked with possible, Epstein-Barr exposure or infection. Wow. Yeah. And I actually remember when I got Epstein-Barr, I never got tested for it, but I remember maybe two years prior my cancer that I had really swollen glands, really high temperature, and it had to be Epstein-Barr but I was never swabbed for it, so I never got,

the answer, but it was definitely Epstein-Barr. So, Yes, Epstein-Barr and then shingles. You have a problem with shingles, which is what I had as well. And that's what brought me to the MCAS. Unfortunately, the constant battle, because once you have this reactivation, it's it's you're constantly battling to get rid of the viral load. So.

So I just want to say something about viral infections. So people think you're actually not killing viruses. You can't kill viruses because they're always dormant. You can put a virus into a dormant state, but you never kill us. That's the problem. So you can make that the immune system push the virus into dormant. So make it obviously non non active.

I suppose what happens with the chickenpox for instance. And then you have a dormant and that's body can be reactivated through shingles later in life. So yes. Yeah I'm the same with Epstein-Barr. And I believe that's what's happening with Covid as well.

and I will say with Epstein-Barr, just to mention Epstein-Barr is the virus that causes mononucleosis.

Yeah.

just for people if, if they've tested positive for mono, if they've had it, it's kind of the kissing disease of teenagers.

That is the Epstein-Barr virus.

Yes. Yeah. So what happens then is in terms of histamine intolerance is when this virus gets reactivated. So we have a lot of these during Covid because Covid actually reactivated a lot of the other virus that were dormant. So I had loads of clients. And that's what a long Covid actually. A lot of the long Covid issues come from is also multiple reactivation of viruses that were obviously dormant in the body. So a constant low grade inflammation that just brings, your life into misery. Misery because it's terrible. Sure. So with viruses. Yeah. It's, I suppose when you're working with that histamine intolerance, you have to reduce the load, through food, through supplements, make sure you're taking, histamine, stabilizer, mast cell stabilizers. You can do a lot of things and take the nutrients to support your immune system to put that virus at bay again.

So to put that virus park the virus again. So make it non-active, I suppose. But it's not as easy as described. Because of the virus. Yeah. And the virus, unfortunately leave marks in different organs and areas of the body. And that's what keeps triggering the immune system and the inflammation. So,

It's very interesting about the viruses going into dormancy and that they can be reactivated from other viruses. I, you know, I've heard a lot about long Covid. I've read a lot about it, but I've never had it put in such kind of clear terms that it just, you know, Covid really reactivated these viruses.

And so I think that's a really interesting way to look at it. Yes. And to think about the fact that you just have to get these viruses back, kind of sleeping parked as you said,

I like that that verbiage,

What I would love to do is let's go into the relationship between histamine and estrogen. And then kind of how that happens through menopause with the estrogen dropping the histamine. And then from there we can talk about kind of some of the other things that can affect us in intolerance, like chronic stress, right. Things like that. And then from there we can go into kind of addressing the symptoms and things like a low histamine diet and we can talk about food does that sound good.

Yes. So a normal man's because we can talk about estrogen if we don't talk about, the normal or the cycling of estrogen throughout. Cycling woman before perimenopause. So what happens with estrogen. So day one of your all of our cycle when we bleed I'm talking about prior to hormone changes. When we bleed we actually have very little estrogen.

So between day one and day five of our cycle there's nothing happening. So progesterone is low estrogen is low. And we just feel yuck. So then slowly by day five estrogen starts to rise and we feel that, finally and we feel so much better because estrogen is starting to come up and that around day five. And then we have the testosterone as well, because we are trying to reach day 14 with the peak of hormones.

So estrogen, testosterone. And then gradually progesterone is actually not elevated on day 14. It's elevated on day 20 or 21. That's when it peaks. So that's that estrogen slowly rising. And then it produces the follicle stimulating hormone. And then it produces another hormone called the luteinizing hormone which stimulates ovulation. So we should have a peak of all the hormones around day 13.

And then 14 is the estrogen It's dominates pretty much everything. So the high levels of estrogen are ovulation then estrogen obviously progesterone is the one that dominates. So LH promotes ovulation and that boost progesterone. So progesterone gradually peaks up. And then by day 20, 21 or 22 depending on your cycle length and when your average, it peaks. So that's the nice peak of progesterone.

Now estrogen are not low by any mean. They're still high. But if you look at a chart you see estrogen being for instance 400 on day 14 and 200 on day 21 or 22. So it's kind of half usually to be optimal, but the peak is definitely day 14. So that's what estrogen and progesterone do. And then when when obviously the drop triggers menstruation.

So to drop off to to boom just triggers. And that's when. So women can also find symptoms get worse. But that's how it works. So in perimenopause it's a disaster because we have lengthening of the luteal phase because we're not ovulating, so the luteal phase last forever and ever. And, we have longer cycles. So instead of stopping bleeding a day five, we could have seven day cycle with a lot of bleeding.

Generally, women will experience heavy bleeding, around perimenopause and that estrogen tends to rise. It rises at the wrong time because obviously, if you have high bleeding, you know, every menstruation, you have to go back to the previous cycle. So your day one is what happened a month before that, right? Yeah. It's always behind. So you have to think about what happened there.

Did I have enough progesterone or obviously you didn't ovulate. And then your estrogen dominates. What happens is progesterone kind of keeps estrogen low. Why not lower half of all of the you know what was that ovulation. If progesterone is low estrogen will go up. So estroge wiill stay high during the luteal phase. And that's not good because you don't have the calming effect of progesterone and you don't have the progesterone or the reduces the estrogen. So you have high estrogen throughout the whole cycle. Pretty much.

Yeah. So in perimenopause it's high when it shouldn't be high. So it's high on and that actually promotes your high bleeding them because high estrogen promotes clotting promotes high sorry heavy bleeding and longer cycles. You

okay. And compared to progesterone that is high levels normal estrogen normal bleeding. So 4 or 5 days. So that's what's happening.

And women actually get the worst of the histamine intolerance on day 21 or 22 of the cycle. Because that's when progesterone should have been high. Not there to keep the histamine the DAO and the histamine low and that's when they get the symptoms. I find more than ovulation because it's it's the luteal phase that tends to bring more histamine issues for women.

So.It's interesting. Right now I have and talked about this on other episodes. I have quite chronic and severe eczema, and I was encouraged to track my cycle and my eczema symptoms together, which I had never thought of before, that my eczema could be related to my menstruation and the levels of estrogen in my body. And it's very, very correlated.

And it has just been quite eye-opening to me to see when my eczema has flared, during my menstrual cycle and also through, breast cancer treatment when I was on an estrogen blocker that just brought up a whole world of, changes in my eczema with eczema flares. So it's even these types of things that I think a lot of women don't understand are correlated and connected.

There's a very high prevalence of women that have psoriasis, that have eczema. And these could very much be correlated to your hormones.

Yes, absolutely. Hormones. Control a lot of things in our body, unfortunately. and from what I understand about perimenopause and what you said earlier, just to kind of reinforce this is that your hormones are going from the ceiling to the floor and back up again. And so the symptoms can be worse during that time than in menopause. I think that the idea is that menopause is just so miserable for women, and the symptoms are so unbearable, you know, and and there's this whole conversation then about hormone replacement therapy, to manage symptoms.

But the symptoms in perimenopause can be as equally difficult for a female.

Right. Exactly. They can be either you can feel so if you have low estrogen, you can feel as bad as high estrogen. So when estrogen are low and that menopause, you have the weight gain, you have the bloating, the puffiness, depression, anxiety.

So you have similar there's similar symptoms. One, you know, between the low and the high estrogen. So, but the low is more correlated with depression. So it's kind of low mood. Tiredness, fatigue, the high estrogen is more, like I would also say estrogen speeds things up. High estrogen and low estrogen slow things down. So energy and high estrogen tend to cause the opposite.

So obviously breast, tenderness, swelling, all the PMS symptoms, but more so in the anxiety type of issues, anxiety, more than depression. So

yeah. So then if you're going through perimenopause and you're going from low estrogen to high estrogen and you're going from depressive symptoms to anxious symptoms to migraines to low energy, I mean, you just have every day it's,

Yeah, you just draw a card. It's mood swings are the best swings all over. Yes, yes.

So let's talk about kind of these symptoms. Because what we talked about at the beginning of the episode was that, you know, there's just kind of this umbrella of perimenopause and menopausal symptoms, right. And that it's just kind of what women we have to go through this tunnel to get to the other end. But like we've had in this conversation, there can be other factors than just it being umbrella menopause symptoms. Right. So what can a female do to address these types of symptoms? In her 40s, for example, when she's starting to feel changes and she's starting to feel a bit outside of her body in terms of, you know, like we just mentioned these symptoms, what how can these be addressed?

The first thing I do, if obviously women can afford it, is actually a Dutch test or a hormone urine test. The first thing is understanding what's happening. Obviously, we could have a different picture if the if the, urine was taken a week before or a week after. Yes. But you get a pretty good indication of what's happening.

In the on the hormone perspective, blood, you don't really get the same because blood gives you the circulating amount of estrogen, and urine gives you the metabolites of estrogen. So metabolites are more, there are more accurate way of determine how things are going for you because you obviously make the E1, E2, e3, estrogens and then the estrogen is a predominant hormone pre menopause.

And then you have estrone You know two different types. But each the metabolites they're making, each of the inflammatory metabolites is the more anti-inflammatory ones based on that. You know, because one metabolites will give you those symptoms more than the other one. So the 16 for instance, is the more,proliferative type of metabolites, 16 hydroxy

And that tends to bring a lot of symptoms for women in perimenopause. Yeah. So it's more I call it inflammatory type of estrogen.

And then you promote then you I support women going towards the more anti-inflammatory ones. So I study the there are pathways I showed you there genetics. But for women generally they can't afford that or they can't do anything.

Just blood test would be helpful. You know, it's not I'm not saying it's not what it has to be catched at the right time. It has to be, the right timing for them. Otherwise your you might have low estrogen. And then the next day you have super high estrogen. So it has to be timed. Well, but you can certainly check things like, your FSH with your follicle stimulating hormone.

Yeah. Which tends to change in perimenopause. And then you'll know, if there is too much of a request for the follicle stimulating hormone. So it's elevation. It's like, okay, things are not working the way it should be. And then LH which is your ovulation hormone again, you know, you based on that you can and progesterone you kind of know some of the picture for women going through that I always work with the triggers.

So what can you do. Stress is a big one for women in perimenopause because most, not all of them for most women will be at the peak of their career. Well have children, young children still, and they'll be so stressed because they have a lot on. And that's why ultra immune disease is very prevalent in women, 80% of women.

And that is why. Because it's the time is the age of women that is between 40 and 50 is the highest of stress for their life. So yes. So if I say focus on things to improve your nervous system regulation tech like tools for your nervous system, meditation, get into your, you know, use devices to help you with vagus nervous, you know, vagus nerve stimulation.

But stress management would be my number one tip to start with, right. What can you do to lower that stress? Because then you can clear your mind from other things, and then you can actually see your symptoms better. Is it anxiety. Is it my gut. Ok, what can I do okay I can I can see clearly now because you have looked after their nervous system before anything else.

You know, the areas that you need to focus on if the digestion is a problem now generally probiotics will be like I love using food based probiotics. So like kefir again, fermented foods for small amounts, you don't need huge amounts. And it sounds like if it's actually okay, it doesn't really trigger histamine response small amounts and but not overly fermented.

Or use probiotics based for like generally low histamine probiotics. Very important probiotics can be histamine producers.

And then if there is most of the other issues are fatigue, brain fog. So a lot of neuro neurological type of issues. So on that level I support like the most my most favorite nutrients would be vitamin D

one thing I will mention here, just for those who don't know, perhaps, is that with vitamin D it's very important, the fat soluble vitamin.

So it's very important to take it correctly. You need to take it with food. Otherwise it doesn't absorb in your body. And you just pee it out. And it it's just it's not helpful. So I do think it's important to understand the best way to take that supplement. There are liquid drops that you can do. Correct? Yes.

Prepared to take it in the morning because this year you have to follow your circadian rhythm.

So that's what vitamin D is produced is in the morning time because it's with light and sun There's no point of taking your vitamin D at nighttime because you're actually going against your circadian rhythm of natural vitamin D production, because you need light, you need obviously the sun UV while the sunlight. So you actually trying to replicate when is the best time, when is it usually made naturally.

So you're aging that process. Some people have a genetic mutation also that can make them really, poor vitamin D absorbers. And I'm seeing this in clinic. So you giving them 10,000 of vitamin D and they're like Why? Why, nothing has moved. Yeah. Yeah. It is the mutation on a gene for vitamin D. So there is such a thing as well.

And if you have gut problems like small intestinal bacteria overgrowth, if you have gut issues or infections, you're not going to absorb vitamin D either. So important. Like it's like you when you see the you optimize those things. It's amazing because you see that vitamin D going going really, really high. You're like, oh, finally things are working. And cofactor magnesium is really important to absorb vitamin D.

So you have to have enough magnesium. Yeah very important for vitamin D I was going to go to magnesium was my other favorite nutrient. So vitamin D magnesium yes yes.

So now when you say that do you mean that you should take vitamin D and magnesium together? No. At the same time, no. It

just means that you need to have enough magnesium, in your body to absorb vitamin D properly.

So it's a cofactor for vitamin D absorption. So even if it's not, you can take that even in the evening because your body will still hold on to some of it. You're not going to pee 300g of magnesium straight away. So it's still going to stay in your body. Yes yes yes.

Yeah. And a lot of people recommend magnesium at nighttime because it can have a calming effect and it can help.

Help sleep. Right?

Yes. But you can also take it in the morning. There’s so many different forms. So there's malate. There is threonate now. There is glycinate. So I use every different one, it has a role. So citrate is for constipation. Glycinate is for hormonal balance sleep. Then you have malate.

It is for fibromyalgia. So for pain it can be used during the day. And then you have threonate, which is the latest one that came out which is used for brain inflammation. So it can be used for long Covid. And all of them the others can be taken during the day. So you, you have to take them doing today to have that effect on the nervous system.

So it's quite fascinating. Magnesium is huge, huge. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So addressing the root cause of the histamine intolerance. So if it is hormonal then obviously we can't really, you know, you can't make progesterone from food.

I mean, that's misconception is that's still going around. It used to be like five, six years ago, I used to hear, oh, take, wild yam, you know, like, if you eat these make, you know, there's no food that will increase your progesterone. No. Just no estrogen. Yes. But progesterone, not really. So estrogen, you can take herbs to promote obviously production of estrogen.

but they're all very weak at the end of the day. Yeah. The weak substances and they're not going to make you sit and go, oh, I'm back to my cycling days. And then you have there is cream.

There are progesterone creams which women use and they found really beneficial. So it is from wild yam. That's what identical progesterone is from. It's wild yam.

But if women feel I know we talked briefly about HRT, but if women feel that they need HRT and they have no other like history of breast cancer, or they don't have any other contraindication.

Now, lipedema unfortunately, is a contraindication because you can't really go on a normal HRT level. I would suggest talk to their, hormonal specialists or usually clinic the specialist in women's health and to work towards an HRT program or an HRT path that works for them. Now that's only if you feel now you don't have to go on HRT.

You don't have to. But some women might be more predisposed, for instance, for dementia and other things. But again, we don't have a strong, robust studies to say HRT prevents dementia 100%. We don't have that. So it's all about how women feels. If women are feeling really bad and they have, they can't control their symptoms anymore. I will definitely consider HRT and use bioidentical HRT only I will.

No, I would only ever use by identical. So

And what does that mean? Bio identical

means that the body it's the body. It's similar to the hormones that the body makes. So it's not like synthetic estrogen they used to be given before. So it's the more closer type of hormone that your body makes naturally. So

And you mentioned about, breast cancer patients and lipedema that they cannot go on the full levels of HRT. And I just want to touch on why that is. If you want to just explain for a second and then maybe talk about what options they would have other than HRT.

So for breast cancer, obviously it's very clear because of estrogenic effect, because if you have had an estrogen, any type of breast cancer, pretty much they don't give you HRT estrogen and progesterone positive.

So hormone positive breast cancer, it's a no no. Because what the consultant which I would also argue about that what they do is they don't want estrogen. So the minute you get breast cancer it's like estrogen are no no they're about and estrogen blockers everything tamoxifen. And it's like we don't want estrogen. Reality is not all about that is about what estrogens are you making.

Obviously the word the inflammatory estrogen. Do the actually are linked with breast cancer. So but the problem is they don't want anything to do with estrogen. So obviously if you have I do understand that in a way because if you have an estrogen

based type of cancer, you don't want to fuel your body with more estrogen because you simply don't know unless you're testing every day.

You don't know how your body's processing them internally. So, for that reason, it's the safest option to avoid

no progesterone. In some instance, they do give it in like or they give vaginal. Some women with breast cancer do get vaginal pass through for instance of estrogen. So it is possible because it's localized. So it's not systemically and progesterone as well internally.

So some consultant are willing to do that in small dosages.

That's why it's not recommended because you take in most women take estrogen. Aromatase inhibitors and estrogen blockers and you just can't have estrogen in the body at all. Yes. So that's the breast cancer reason. Lipedema is also because lipedema is triggered in puberty. Menopause obviously premature menopause.

It is triggered by estrogen. So although I've seen women that had pretty much very normal estrogen all their life with ease, how did the body processes these estrogens for us in terms of lipedema. So put HRT there could mean that the tissue can grow and can make symptoms worse. However, some women find the smaller dosage. So microdosing with HRT helps small amounts of hormones actually helps to keep that inflammation a bit small inflammation.

But if you can't, obviously because you ask me what do you do if you can't?

Now technically the medical world will tell you not to take phytoestrogen either.

Anything estrogenic, it's like, no, no, no sage, no, no, no. To me that's incorrect because phyto estrogen actually helps to balance the estrogen overall. So they actually helps to keep them.

So in some cases low. So again I looked at the genetics I look at the pathways and see if there is anything that I am concerned about with phytoestrogens. But I just wouldn't cancel. So yeah. Just because you had breast cancer because remember that phyto estrogen is still very weak. They're not HRT, they're very weak.

But for lipedema, I think the part that makes an inflammatory is actually the bean in itself. So it's the soya bean itself that causes inflammation. It's not the estrogenic is the actual being that can cause, it's the lectins. It's more to it. It's not just the estrogenic. No. So what can you do? I would definitely take herbs to help, you know, to balance the metabolism of estrogen.

So you can take there are so many lovely blends with ashwagandha, for example. Although ashwagandha at the moment is being a bit controversial for breast cancer because apparently it's not recommended post breast cancer as well with something that needs to be studied more. But ashwagandha? But lovely. I would say take lovely herbs to balance the nervous system as well.

So rhodiola, passionflower, things like that. That would really help to keep the hormone balance. Because remember, the more cortisol you have, the more estrogen, fluctuations are going to high and blood sugar imbalances all throughout the day. So look, sugar, right.

Cortisol increases from stress and insulin resistance affects the entire body.

I ave just spoken with a woman, I'll have an episode coming out soon. That insulin resistance is being linked to Alzheimer's. It's being called the new type three diabetes. It's it's linked to polycystic ovarian syndrome. I mean, it is across the body. Insulin resistance is a big thing. So it's important to understand how all of these are connected.

Yes. And perimenopause and menopause promotes insulin resistance because the loss of estrogen, the estrogen makes more women more insulin sensitive. So it promotes the function of insulin. But in perimenopause, when there is a loss of estrogen, it promotes insulin resistance. So insulin resistance not working very well pretty much. right. The locks are locked and there's no way to open there. It just doesn't work.

It's yeah the cells become resistant to it. So they don't clear, sugar very well from the blood. And it starts to spike and then it causes all the resistance problems. Yeah.

And so talking about sugar, let's talk about food because there's a lot of diet, changes and adapting your diet that can help and hurt.

And excuse me histamine resist. Histamine intolerance. Yes. Okay. I’m getting my words mixed up.

So let's talk about food. We talked a little about the fermented foods earlier and avocado and things like that. What do you recommend and what do not recommend for women that are having these changes and having symptoms of histamine intolerance?

I would say the low histamine diet can be, a temporary aid.

I don't recommend using low histamine forever unless you have a significant problem with histamine like MCAS or severe. Those type of virus issues. I would always use it as a temporary aid to understand where your body needs support with. But yes, look at the culprit. You know, when you have a histamine response. Because, like I do when I have dark chocolate, sometimes the one that I'm absolutely fine again when progesterone is nice and high, but sometimes I'm like, no.

So dark chocolate is one of the biggest culprits because it's really high in histamine. So, and especially the 89% is like so even the organic one doesn't matter. But some theories say that is actually the mold that causes the reaction to the dark chocolate. Because obviously. Yeah, because obviously dark chocolate is fermented. And if you take cacao powder, for instance, which is not really fermented as much as the, it's actually fine for histamine issues.

So it's interesting to see cacao versus dark chocolate. So the powder versus chocolate. But our chocolate is,

and I will say this coffee is also fermented in a similar way that chocolate is. And I don't think people really

understand that the jitters people get from coffee and the kind of, the sweating this can be from the mold that is from the fermentation of the coffee.

Right? It's not so much the caffeine. I mean, it can be the caffeine also, if you drink way too much. But there's been a lot of talk about coffee in the past years about the effects of mold in coffee. Absolutely.

Same problem with the coffee beans, same problem fermented and where they've been exposed. If there was very moist environment, obviously the more moist, the more mold growth.

I love a brand. There's a brand in the US that is, you have to get a brand certified mold free. If you want to really enjoy a coffee and you have histamine problems. It's not caffeine at all because unless you are a slow metabolism of caffeine and then, you know, you can't have four cups a day, but generally for one cup, right.

It's not really the caffeine for one cup. So, right. No, but some people with histamine problems can tolerate even one cup. One cup of day.

There's purity. So purity is the most popular one I suppose. Purity coffee. And that would be mold free, certified mold free. And I have some of my, MCAS clients and they have no reactions. So there you go. Wow. It is mold. Yeah

That's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah, it's really interesting. Now let's talk about these fermented foods because, you know, it's such a thing now and gut health is so important.

Connected the brain gut connection, all of this. And so I think there's these trends of eating these gut healthy foods. Yeah. Right. What happens with histamine. You have oh my god.

If anyone has struggled or suffer from histamine intolerance try to eat sauerkraut or kimchi. It will kill you. You'll get heartburn instantly the minute you put this out.

And that used to happen to me before I discovered the whole histamine thing. I'm like, why am I getting these heartburn? And then it clicked to me years later that it was bloody histamine. And then bone broth is another one because bone broth is also cooked for so long. Anything that is slow cooked, even the slow cooker can release histamine.

And I was having terrible heartburn with, bone broth. Home made, the best bone broth and I was doing keto and I remember doing my fast and having my bone broth, and this heartburn was killing me. And then I got a headache. I'm like, that was histamine all along. So yeah, yeah,

yeah. You discover and it can be such a puzzle.

It can be so frustrating because you're actively choosing ingredients and foods that you think are going to help heal you, that you think are going to make you feel better. You know, I think you talked about,

dark chocolate, you know, dark chocolate and red wine can trigger migraines. But, you know, these are both very high in histamine, right?

And then they have these bone broth diets where, you know, you have all these health problems, and you just need to drink bone broth for a week, and you'll feel better, and you end up with a migraine and skin problems and histamine and stomach problems, heartburn and stomach problems. So I do think that it's the individual, you know, they're all of these people that want to kind of fix your problems and say, well, if you do this one thing or if you eat this food, you're going to heal your gut.

Yes. But if it doesn't work for you as an individual, it's not for you. No. Right.

And it's fine not to eat all the fermented foods. I mean, if you have a really well balanced diet and you eat a lot of vegetables, of any sorts, you are getting the fiber that you need to boost your microbiome so you can get.

I just want to say it's it's a big thing. Now fermented foods is the the trendy, yeah. Right now. And I'm like, if you have histamine intolerance, just don't eat just don't have fermented foods because it's and some people don't even like it. I don't like sauerkraut, but because it's healthy, people think, oh, I need to have kimchi and sauerkraut.

But if you have a histamine problem, just, you know, just try other things. Maybe.

And I do find that I was it was interesting for me to learn that there are histamine, there are foods that are high in histamine. And then there are foods that are released. Yeah. Liberators Correct. And so right. And so for me avocado was so surprising to find.

That is quite high in histamine. I had no idea. And you know, that's such a superfood these days. Everybody wants avocado in all of the recipes and and and everything. So, you know, there's the fermented foods and then there's also the you talked about the low histamine diet is a quite restrictive diet. And but it is just interesting to at least look at the list of which foods are very high in histamine.

And I will have, some images, linked in the resources for people to check out just to see, you know, is their diet packed full of foods with histamine? Yeah, it may be.

Exactly. And then I have a comprehensive list that I give to clients, which I'm happy to share because it's very misleading, I think to find information some would say this is high to low.

So I've done loads of work on the histamine foods list. Oh, I've done a lot of work, but there are good resources where people can look at. There is Mast Cell 360, there's a lot of resources, that I can suggest, you know, for people to look if they feel they have a histamine problem.

So

we are getting into closing of the episode. And in doing that we are arriving at the Pluck This! segment. This is the segment of the Harry Chin Podcast where we offer tangible takeaways for the audience, and they can do something now with everything that we've talked about in this wonderful episode with Virginia.

Virginia has a wonderful offer for this episode. We've just been talking about histamine and food and histamine intolerance. And so she has a histamine guide that will be available. It will be available through Instagram. We will be posting a real about this episode and about histamine intolerance. If you comment histamine in that reel, then you will be sent through an Instagram DM.

This histamine guide from Virginia. Yes yes. Absolutely.

That's fantastic.

So if you do not have Instagram and you're listing this through the podcasting platform, please reach out to me at Spencer@Spencerita.com by email.

You can find it in the resources below. And we will make sure that we can get that guide over to you.

Perfect. Okay.

That's fantastic. So we're getting to the end of our episode. It's been so informative. Really, really interesting. Just in terms of kind of some final thoughts, what advice do you give to women going through what we're going through?

I mean, we've, we've talked about some actionable steps, but is there is there anything else that you really want to share with women on this theme?

I would start by reducing stress. I would start by looking at nervous system regulation and supporting using herbs, using nutrients like I mentioned, passion flora.

Holly basil. Holly basil is a lovely one as well.

Magnesium. Just lovely supporting herbs to help you during these process.

You know, and obviously navigating perimenopause and menopause because they can be quite challenging to be on the other side then, and look after your stress and support your body with, I would say wholesome home cooked food as much as you can and have plenty of color.

So look for colors in your diet. So, do the interesting veg. Try the interesting vegetables you've never tried before because very likely they'll have some health benefits for you. And get enough protein. So aim to have your optimal protein intake per meal and keep your blood sugar steady.

Well, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a wonderful conversation, very informative. And I'm just I'm so pleased to with you being here.

Thank you. It's a pleasure. Thanks a million.

Thank you so much.

Thanks for joining us on The Hairy Chin Podcast. If you enjoyed today's episode, please head over to www.spencerita.com to join our creative community. I'm Spencer Moore reminding you that knowledge isn't just powerful, it's empowering. When you know better, you do better. So stay strong, keep going, and I'll see you next time.