Cowgirl Artists of America’s podcast features an enlightening conversation with filmmaker Mark Sternberg, who is currently creating a documentary focused on the contributions of female Western artists. He shares insights into his journey from a successful marketing career to pursuing his passion for filmmaking, driven by a desire to tell untold stories. Mark highlights the striking, yet common statistic that only 10% of artworks in museums are created by women, a revelation that sparked his idea for this project. Throughout the episode, he discusses his process and the impactful interviews and stories he has gathered. This episode invites listeners to reflect on the significance of women’s narratives in Western art and encourages them to support the documentary's mission to bring these stories to light.

Takeaways:

1. Marc Sternberg shares his journey from a successful marketing career to pursuing his passion for filmmaking.
2. The documentary aims to highlight untold stories of women in the West and Western art.
3. Curiosity plays a vital role in uncovering deeper truths and building strong relationships.
4. The project seeks to amplify underrepresented voices and perspectives .

People/artists mentioned in this episode:

1. Barbara Van Cleve
2. Maynard Dixon
3. Veral Goodnight
4. Terry Kelly Moyers
5. Deborah Fellow
6. Mark Sublet
7. Donna How Sickles
8. Kim Trickey
9. Hilma af Klint
10. Kandinsky
11. Gorilla Girls

Welcome to Cowgirl Artists of America's podcast. I'm your host, Megan Wimberley. I'm so excited about today's discussion with filmmaker Marc Sternberg.

Marc is currently in the middle of creating a documentary on art by female Western artists.

And we're going to talk about his background, what inspired him to create this documentary, how it's going, and how you can actually get involved for transparency. I do want to mention that CGA is partnering with Marc on this project, and I've had the privilege of sitting for an interview and the documentary.

We're welcome, Marc.

Thank you so much. Excited to talk to you.

We're so glad to have you. Marc, I'd love to learn just a little bit more about you. Can you tell us a little bit about you and how you got into filmmaking?

Yeah. So I actually wanted to go to film school for undergrad.

I was into film class in high school and I worked at Blockbuster thinking I was going to be the next Quentin Tarantino. And my parents actually didn't let me go.

When we went to tour schools, they would ask, like at USC and Chapman, they asked the tour guides, what's he going to do when he graduates? And the response was, he's going to serve coffee to directors. So that ended my dreams of being a filmmaker then and there.

So I went off and had a very successful marketing career. So I went to business school instead and went got my MBA and sold my first business at 23. So I had a successful run.

I just always felt like I wasn't doing what I was supposed to be doing. I wasn't doing what I was passionate about. I was just trying to make money.

And so then Covid hit, and my wife and I had a moment where we said, well, what would you want to do? And she gave me the opportunity to really step back and think about what I could do if I were to career transition.

And so I decided I'm going to go back to my passion, which is film. And I got into Oxford for screenwriting.

So I started with the screenwriting route and then I applied for producing because producing is really the business of film. And so I got into one of the top film schools as a producing major, masters in producing. And so I'm just about wrapping that up right now.

So that's been really great. But in. In the whole process, I've been a filmmaker the entire time. So that's the truth is I've always managed creative teams.

I've always had graphic design, video and photo report up to me and created Studios in big companies. I've also made films on the side for myself, and now I'm working on my fifth documentary. So I very much been a filmmaker.

I just didn't have that title. I was a businessman. And now finally I can claim the title that I've always wanted, which is filmmaker.

That's amazing. And I'm sure something that so many of our artists listening will. That will resonate with so many people. Your.

You are so impressive on how much stuff you do. Whenever I sat down and talked with you about that, you're still in school and you're doing all these documentaries.

From a fellow person who takes on a lot, I can't say I can't imagine managing all of that stuff, but I suppose we kind of figure it out.

Yeah, you just prioritize. I really think that's the key. It's.

You do what you love and you really prioritize the things that are important to you at the moment, and you just juggle those things as effectively as you can. That's. That's how I maximize. It's not because I put something aside and I say, I'm only going to focus on this.

I say I'm going to give this this much time and I move on to the things that I really want to accomplish just to keep going. To me, I'm not singularly focused. So I don't know if that's a blessing or a curse, but that's very much my style.

Yeah. And it helps when you're so passionate about everything, too, because it keeps you that drive and motivation.

I wonder, can you take us back to the moment when you first realized that women's stories in rest weren't being told the way that they deserved and kind of what happened that inspired this documentary?

Yeah. So that was really the whole reason for this documentary.

My mom is a docent at the Phoenix Art Museum, so I grew up a lot of the time in Arizona, and I would go with her to the museums, and the Phoenix Art Museum has an amazing Western art collection. But we actually one day went to Western Spirit in Scottsdale and they had a traveling exhibit called Women of the West.

And that really struck me because I'm like, this is an amazing museum. Why is there a women's exhibit? And it was fantastic exhibit. But I'm like, why? Why is there a need for a women's exhibit?

And it's crazy that I didn't know the answer to that. So I had to go and research the answer. But it really piqued my interest and so when I researched it, the 10% representation of women in.

In the arts world, in museums in general, not just Western art, is the typical norm. And that's globally too. That's even in Europe as well as America.

But in that art museum, there's only two pieces, or at least at that point, there were only two pieces in the permanent collection that were women created art. And so those numbers just really struck me as something like it's 20, 25. This seems strange.

Like, this doesn't seem like the right ratio, in my opinion. I was just very, very surprised by the fact. And I'm like, I think there's a story here that I would love to tell.

Not that I have any credibility to tell it, but really just that it was something that was fascinating to me and something that I was curious to see where it would go. And I knew that the audience wouldn't know a lot about this topic because I didn't. And I'm an educated person.

I'm working on my fifth master's degree. I grew up early on in D.C. going to museums every weekend. So I felt like I was very academic and educated.

And I didn't know that I didn't study anything like that in school, so maybe I just didn't have that angle. But it really was a surprise to me.

And so it was something that I wanted to explore and a story that I really thought I could tell, not because I have the background in art, but because I have that curiosity. And I just really love asking questions. And just like what you're asking now is the why. I love to ask the why behind the what.

Yeah, you're like speaking my language. There's so much about what you said. I always encourage people to be curious.

You know, it's whenever we lack curiosity that we're unable to see with fresh eyes. And that's what art is all about to begin with.

Excuse me, but the percentage that you bring up of 10, I. I started really digging in and researching too. And that number, like 9 to 11% comes up a lot.

And I had a similar experience where I went into that inspired Cowgirl Arts of America, where I went into a major Western art exhibition. And of course, all of the work was beautiful.

But as I walked around looking at the faces of the artists on the bios, it was very obvious that there were not many women. And I asked myself the same thing. Why? Why is that? And when I crunch the numbers on the show, that 10% comes up a lot.

I think it was 9% the year that I was inspired to start CGA, and. And the issue is certainly complex and not just one thing, but. But we have to ask why. And. And I love the.

The curiosity thing, because the thing I tell people a lot is just bring a little bit of awareness to it when you go into a show and just pay attention and see what you notice, because you will start noticing that coming up a lot. And I also even notice in a lot of shows, I think it's starting to get better now.

But I've noticed even a lot of shows that have women in it, most of their ads show the male artists. And again, it's not across the board, but these are things you kind of see coming up. And again and again and again.

It's not about being judgmental or blaming anybody. Is about asking the question why? And then telling the story, which you are doing. That's so exciting.

Did you.

I really wanted to ask why that I didn't know that this was an issue, because for me, it was like, this feels like a big thing that I just somehow missed my whole life. Like, it took me into my 30s to figure this thing out.

And so what I really realized is something you just said, which is going and looking at the name cards, that's not something a typical museum goer does, right? They go and they admire the art.

They really enjoy what they like, and they go around, maybe if they really enjoy a piece, they go and look at the name, and maybe they start to see that name come up multiple times. But sometimes the name is ambiguous, sometimes it's an acronym. Right? They just use their first initial. They don't use their full name.

And I. I kind of know why now, but it's really interesting to think about why that is not a known thing. And there are usually not images of the artist, not a photo of an artist next to the piece either.

So there's not a real easy way to figure this out unless you actually go down the academic route of researching it.

Yeah, that the images are what made the difference for me, because I kind of knew about this as an existence, but it was so much more impactful to see the image, the faces looking back at me. And you talked about not going to art school and not being aware of it, but the same 10% shows up in art school books, historically, if at all.

And so when you think about one. One little, like, fun test that I like to do with people sometimes is to just say, quick, name three artists as fast as you can.

Almost always it's going to be men, because those are the artists that are promoted. Those are the artists that we learn about. And historically, you know, men had more opportunity to become professional artists.

Women, their work was considered more home craft, sort of enrichment for their lives, but not necessarily as a professional. And then you have some women who, like Hilma off Clint, who was I now, I think Swedish. Is that right? Now I'm forgetting, so don't quote me on that.

But she did this really cool work. She said in her will not to show her work for 20 years.

And so Kandinsky was considered the, the father of expressionistic art, but she was actually doing it before him. But nobody knew because she had asked for her work to not be shown.

And so the, the historical complexity of it is really interesting to get into as well. And you're interviewing some art historians and things for the documentary, is that right?

Correct. Yeah. I'm really trying to attack this from all the angles because I. I think a story really needs the depth.

You can't just have the breadth of a lot of interviews. You really have to have the depth. And I think that comes from having those different angles.

So the artists are giving one angle, then the experts are giving the other. And the experts are broken into many categories. So art direct, art gallery directors, museum directors, gallery owners, art historians.

I'm even starting to talk to some, like the magazines and, and other aspects of the art world that really has a perspective on this topic. Not everyone wants to talk about it, especially not this topic and not specifically, but they, they are very fascinated.

The fact that I'm pursuing this idea. And I've heard a lot of no's from places that I expected, especially women's type of organizations that have said no to me.

And that really surprises me. And it also surprises me when I hear a no from a leader in an organization that's a woman that says no representing the organization.

And I, I get some of the why for the no, but they're not telling me that, so they're not actually giving me the reason. I just have to extrapolate and guess. But I'm really not a political person. I'm as apolitical as you could possibly be.

So this is not me taking a stand and saying this has to be some kind of movement or some kind of agenda for either side. I mean, I really think this is just an issue in reality for everybody that it's, it's really nonpartisan.

It's an issue that it's just representation of underrepresented voices. And if we ask ourselves why, maybe there's a reason, culturally, that this is happening.

Yeah, it's really just the story. Right. And there's some stories that are missing, and there's some stories that are present.

And so the way I really like to talk to people about it is if we really care about the west, if we really value the west in its story, then we have to value women's stories, because women's stories have been there from the very beginning. And so how do we celebrate women's contributions?

I'm getting way off here on my question, so hopefully I don't get lost, but Barbara Van Cleave, who I was going to talk about later, she is one of the OG cowgirl artists. You know, as far as she was interested in showcasing women in Western art. And so she would go out and photograph women on ranches.

She was a woman rancher. She is in her.

Her 80s, and she still rides horses, galloping through the field, taking photos while galloping, which is impressive in and of itself that she can photograph on a galloping horse.

But she talks about how so often the women on the ranches, they did a ton of work, but they were happy to just kind of play a back role as far as not being really present in the story of it. They. They were fine for their husbands to get, you know, all the glory, and they just, you know, and that was. And that's totally fine.

But.

But she found that, you know, she would go in and she would photograph them and really celebrate and highlight that contribution. But the other thing that I find kind of interesting is, say, if you have major Western art exhibitions, and right now, Western culture is huge. Right.

People are just gobbling it up, and people who are outside of the culture don't know. So, like, maybe those of us who grew up in it and we go to those shows and maybe we don't see women presented in the work either.

But we know that those women are there because we grew up with them. We grew up with moms who are horse trainers and grandmothers who are artists and.

And all of the things but the world that is coming in to consume that art, they might make assumptions based on the stories that are not there.

And I find it kind of interesting that when you have a show that is predominantly male artists, that the stories of women are often very, very few, but also they're told from a male perspective. And so women are often portrayed as beautiful or in very traditional roles. And you. And you see them a lot as kind of secondary characters, if at all.

Have you noticed anything like that in your Research.

So that's kind of been my second thesis concept, is first of all, the representation of the women artists themselves. And then the subject matter is. The secondary component is, are women represented in the art itself a subject matter? And I agree with you.

I'm not seeing it. And I've had this conversation in museums and in galleries where we actually. Then take a look. We. I say, I haven't noticed that.

I'd love your expert opinion of this. And a lot of it's not on camera because we get up and we actually walk around.

But I've had these conversations and they're like, oh, yeah, women are in. In these paintings. But exactly like what you just said. What's their role in the painting? It's something in the background.

It's something very minuscule and mundane. It's just an ordinary task. They're not in the limelight, and they're hardly ever represented as a cowgirl. And there were a lot of cowgirls even.

Even in the olden days, let alone now. Right. So it's the fact that it's not represented at all. And if it's told at all, it's told by a male subject matter or a male artist.

So, again, is the perspective a little bit warped as well? So it's super fascinating to me, and I just love to ask the why.

But I think we hit the nail on the head together of if it's a man presenting it, he's going to present his perspective. If it's a women presenting it, I think there's a whole nother angle that could be told.

And again, telling the whole story, I feel like, is an important part of retaining history as well as just learning.

Right? Yeah. And it's not about taking away perspectives. Right. It's just adding the perspectives, adding the stories.

So we do have that full picture, I think a lot about my great grandmother because she was in her 80s and she trained a mustang. She was a fabulous horse trainer. And what a cool woman, you know, and there.

And you can go into the archives at the cowboy museum and you can learn about a lot of really cool women. A lot of people don't know women were banned from bronc riding in the rodeo because one hurt person, one woman, one time got hurt.

And they were banned for a really long time from Bron riding. And so there were these things historically that are very fascinating that happened. But you have these women who are just like.

I mean, they're Western women, you know, and. And their stories are worth telling.

And having that main, main character I want to circle back to something you said earlier because you talked about people saying no, they wouldn't do interviews with you. And you kind of extrapolate why you think that is. And of course this is all assumption because like you said that you're not asking them.

But I'm curious, what, what do you think is the reason that they're not interested in participating?

I think a lot of it's fear. Fear of how they're going to be portrayed in the film, which honestly is perfectly fine and understandable.

However, I'm getting full edit rights to the subject.

So I'm not, I'm not going to put anything in this film that the subject themselves is not comfortable with being presented because some people are telling me things that they're like, oh, I could get in trouble for saying that, so let's cut it.

And there's no way that I would go around and put that in the film because my intention in making this film is not to create a buzz and to create problems for people, it's to tell a story and a more complete story. So I'm not trying to make anybody look bad.

But I think the fear is how they could be portrayed as well as what if they're an organization owner, how their customer base might perceive them as siding with, with the bad guys. Right. Which is so crazy to think about that. That's the perspective.

But I really do believe that there's some aspect of if they join the other side or if they're part of this narrative that they're somehow negative impact for their business because the customer base is going to perceive them differently and. Yeah, perceive them differently, maybe. But why is that a bad thing? Is what I don't understand.

So I like to take the argument a little further than maybe they are in their own heads. But again, they're not telling me this direct feedback. It's just a simple and polite no, thank you. Like, this is not for us. But what does that mean?

And I'm not, I'm really not trying to throw shade. I'm not naming any names or any organizations because of that. I really, I'm perfectly fine with people saying no.

The only thing that I would really ask is could you tell me why and maybe ask a follow up question so that I could defend the project itself like I am. I'd love you to know what it actually is before you cast judgment on me and say no because of your assumptions.

So, yeah, and this is a great time to go back to curiosity. Right? Because. And I've Told you. I have to really be mindful about how I talk about these things, because I don't want. It's so easy.

I think the climate of our culture right now is anger and frustration and fighting, and I don't want to have any part of that. I. I'm not interested in that. I literally. The only thing I want to do is build community.

And.

And I believe that we are all better together. And how do we sit together when we have a lot of variety of opinions? For one, we lean into kindness, and for two, we lean into curiosity. Right.

And if we're leaning into kindness and curiosity, we can have different opinions, we can have different perspectives. A lot of people can come together, and we are all better together.

I think in our current culture, it can be really hard to make that happen, especially if there's preconceived notions about things. And. And certainly I've seen that happen.

And I can understand why people are apprehensive about these conversations, which is really sad, because, like. Like we have already said, this is not about telling anybody they're wrong or making. It's nothing.

The whole point of this is telling and celebrating that full story of the West. It's there whether we see it or not. So why would we not want to see it?

And most of us have women in our lives that we love and admire, and of course, it would be lovely to see them. Them celebrated. And so this is.

Again, I'm just kind of reminding everybody in case anybody is feeling a little prickly about the conversation, this is just about bringing us together in a way to celebrate this full, vibrant story that is the West.

So I wonder, and I can cut this out if I need to, but I know you mentioned to me that when you were filming that there were some instances where an artist, you would ask them a question, and they would act like whatever issue was not something they had experienced or a problem. And then later on, off camera, they might mention, well, let me tell you the real story now. Are you able to talk about that at all with no names?

So, yeah, I mean, that happened quite often. A lot of the time from the artists, it was. They would tell me a bit of the story. They would.

They would start to go down the path, and they're like, I really don't want to go further because it might make somebody uncomfortable or it might make someone feel like I'm casting them in a negative light, which, honestly, they probably were. So they were just being very careful. What really surprised me was the other side was the.

The Experts, because the experts would usually just say no to the question. They wouldn't even pursue, like trying to give some examples of what those issues were. Or they would flat up deny that there was an issue.

And then we would go and have a coffee or a meal together and the camera is now off. And they would tell me great depths of some of these answers that I would have loved to put on camera. But again, it's that comfort and the fear.

How are they going to be perceived? And how is the person that they're mentioning or talking about the situation going to be perceived? Because this is a very small community.

That's one thing that I really learned pretty quickly. Maybe my fourth interview, and I've done now 50 interviews in this Western art community. So it's. They. Everybody knows each other.

If you mention a specific show or you mention a specific city, they know what show you're talking about. If you mentioned the year, they know if they were there or not. Like they.

It's very easy to puzzle this together without even mentioning specific names. So I understand the. The concern. And then if you're really calling someone out on film, is that even the right thing to do? So I get it.

But there have been some atrocious stories that I've heard, and so I love it when they then decide to give me the generalized version of, there was this time when this happened. And I think that's fantastic because again, if this is a political thing, then you're just making something up and you're talking about your opinion.

But this is a personal experience that someone's sharing. How can you ignore that or even be upset about that? You have to just listen to their story because it's true. It's what they experienced.

And some of those were typically like if the husband and wife were the ones in the tent, in their.

In the art tent at a show, and the wife is the artist, the potential customers coming into the tent would almost always go to the man and say, I love your art. And to me, that's just a crazy assumption, that that wouldn't even cross my mind. I would ask, which one of you is the artist?

I want to just go straight to the man and assume, because that's just not how my mind works, because I think women have just as much capability as men to be the artist. So the fact that that's the initial thought is. Is strange to me, but that's very much. I heard that story over and over and over from people.

But what really concerned me was the stories of not being accepted into shows and, and being passed over for opportunities to get into museums and hearing some of the backstory that they heard about the why, which was discrimination. It was very much. A lot of it came down to them being a woman and then a man being preferred for that award or for that show for that very reason.

And a lot of it comes down to the easy way. The scapegoat to get out of that is, well, they have more experience. But that's not true these days. So that's. That's very much not.

Not the correct answer. But that's often the answer that's given.

Yeah, that it's so interesting because I had a note to mention one of our members, Kim Trickey, who has talked about being at shows with her husband and that happening. And, and you would think that that would be something that just happens in the past.

But I do shows by myself frequently and people will assume that I'm not the artist, even though I'm the only one there. And they will ask me multiple times, you're the artist? And I'm like, why are you?

It took me a second to realize why they were asking me because it was so confusing. And then when I was talking to Kim, it started kind of clicking for me. So it's not just the. Just things that happen in the past.

And you mentioned, like having a hard time getting into museum shows. And it's interesting because, Donna, how Sickles, who again, one of the OG artists who I believe you interviewed. Right.

One of my favorite art interviews for sure.

She's amazing. I love her. Barbara Van Cleave too. Both of those women are just like, I'm starstruck.

But Donna, how Sickles talked about how, you know, historically it was men getting into these shows, but what happens whenever men, when you're in a museum show, you get, you get prestige, you can raise your prices, your reputation grows, all this stuff. And so if historically, again, historically, that's what's been happening, it's. It has.

Women haven't necessarily had the opportunity to get the prestige and grow there. And when you look at the prices of artwork, often women artists at the same level of men, their work is priced substantially lower.

And so it was really interesting talking to her about how it's kind of this vicious cycle of the women weren't there. And so it kind of cre. It's a self fulfilling prophecy. I don't know if I'm explaining it so well, but.

But it can be challenging because the men who have been in the show have built their Reputation, they've built that relationship. They're in there. And. And some of these shows, it's often the same artists over and over again. And so when you're drawing from the same.

Well, or maybe it's always the men's name that come to your head. Sometimes it's not even conscious. And so I always say that, you know, like, this isn't necessarily.

I know you mentioned some people having had an experience of specific discrimination, which I do think that there. Sometimes that does happen.

But I think a lot of times it is kind of a lack of awareness towards the system that's been created where we're just drawing from the same well over and over and over again.

Right, right.

And so bringing some mindfulness into that and saying, oh, you know, hey, I noticed that we only have 9% women. Why is that? And then. And then see if there's a solution to it or see why it is or, you know, there. That why question is just so powerful. Why.

Why is this happening?

And I wonder if when I have no idea how a jury decides who is allowed into a show or who's invited into a show, if there's a selection of art that comes through. But I would hope that it's blind. I would hope that there's no name connected to the piece.

When they're deciding what art is deserving of this entry at Oxford, they All the grading is blind, so that your name is erased from the. The assignment. And it's actually graded by three people before you get your final grade because they're very cognizant of bias.

These teachers know who you are because you're in class with them. So them seeing your name is automatically going to signal something in their mind when they're grading your paper or your work.

And then someone else also having another opinion on the work is another way to validate that there's no bias. So I feel like that's a very fair way to go about it.

Again, I have no idea how a jury selects or a committee selects what art and what artists are allowed into a project, but I would hope that there's some component of that, because otherwise there's a underlying bias.

Of course, I think so. Juries are always different depending on. And also the thing is, if an artist.

An artist at a lot of the level what we're talking about, they have such a distinct style, you're going to know who it is, whether their name's on there or not.

I already do. Yeah.

Yeah. So I think the name the blind thing is almost Impossible.

But I think bringing curiosity into like considering like how many women are in the show, how many, how many African American artists are in the show, how many indigenous people are in the show and just seeing what, what stories are being told, if there's predominan infinitely one perspective, and then simply, excuse me, simply asking yourself why? Why is this happening?

Yeah.

And is there anything that we might consider about this? Is this the best strategy? And. And I know I have to keep giving this disclaimer, but again, it's not about removing voices.

It's not about saying somebody can't be here. It's about opening up the full story and the full, the full perspectives that are there.

You know, one of the, the things we talked about kind of how a lot of times these things are just lack of awareness towards it. It's not purposeful discrimination. It's just. It's things that kind of recycle themselves.

But something I've heard many people say to me since, not many, but several people say to me since starting CGA is that they have had people tell them that women are in these certain shows or these groups or whatever because they're not working at the same level as men. And I just find that really tragic.

And so I would love to kind of transition into talking about the women that you interviewed and the quality of the work and the craftsmanship and can you just talk about that? What type of artists did you select? How did you make that selection to begin with?

Yeah, and I. And I've heard that exact statement too. So I. And on camera and off camera a bit of that.

Women aren't as, as strong of artists as, as men as an answer or a reason for some of this happening. And that's such a crazy statement. But. But yeah, so what I decided early on.

So my initial proposal for this project, I researched and researched and researched and I came up with a list of 10 artists that really had a lot of web presence. So it wasn't necessarily that they were the top artists, but it was women artists that had a lot of web presence because I'm. I'm a web guy.

I've been an E commerce and digital marketing for 20 years. So I'm very familiar with if someone is rising to the ranks digitally, there's something that they're doing that the audience is responding to.

So I knew that there was some weight to this list. However, I spoke with Veral Goodnight. She was one on the list that I had and she became a champion. So she's my number one champion.

For this project, Artist Veral Goodnight.

And she said, marc, you have to be very cognizant of who you select because the audience is going to judge your, the quality of your film and the quality of this narrative based on the quality of the artists and the art that you've portrayed. So she was like, could I be your artist advisor?

And that wasn't even a role that I was pitching or asking her to be, but I named her my art, my art advisor for this project, because I really was. That idea stuck. And it was like, she could be the one that knows who these artists are, knows this background and knows the quality at least another.

Another set of eyes to judge that. Because I'm really looking at rankings and I'm looking at a lot of the digital algorithm that I'm able to pull.

But she knows their story and she knows what shows they're in and what those certain ranks maybe mean. So it was very helpful meeting with her early on.

She was my first interview when I went to Colorado, so I had spoken to her on the phone several times.

But I started in Arizona, did several interviews there, and then I went to Colorado and she was my first stop because I really wanted to make sure, am I on the right track? What should I be pursuing?

We would go over the list of names that I've contacted or names that I wanted to contact, and I would do that with every artist that I met with. Who. What are the names on this list that you know and what are the names on this list that are missing?

What are some of those missing names that I really need to add? And so that's how it grew from there. It started with 10 and now it's well over 200, the list. So it's incredible how it's growing.

And that's artists and experts as well.

So it's not just artists, but I've interviewed 30 artists and they've all been at a level that Feral Goodnight deems as worthy of being in this project. And really that I validated from my research.

Now, I've been working on this for two years, so I really do feel like I've gotten to understand the world and understand some of the ranking. And unfortunately, the ranking is not necessarily indicative of the art like we talked about.

Maybe they haven't had that opportunity, maybe they haven't reached that level at a museum show, but I'm able to validate the quality of the art.

And some of the artists have been in their twenties that I've interviewed just to get that other perspective of Those emerging artists and I'm not putting them at the same level. I'm not obviously saying that they're a tenured 40 year career artists, but it's important to have those fresh voices.

Are they still experiencing those same things that someone that's been in this industry for 40 years has experienced and what's their perspective? And part of my interview content is the future.

So I'm very fascinated in their answers to the future versus the answers of someone who's been in the industry for 40 years. So yeah, I just love getting the different perspectives because like we said, it's telling the complete story.

Do you feel like the newer artists are seeing it a little bit differently

or are they mixed bag? Yeah, I've really.

And they'll, they'll be very honest and say maybe it's because I haven't experienced this yet, but they're, they're very gung ho and very like, oh, the world is great and everything's changing. And maybe it is for them. Maybe they are getting these opportunities and the ones that I'm talking to are already successful.

So they're already on this path of they're going to have a great career. So maybe I need to talk to some of those that are frustrated that haven't even gotten to a show yet at all.

I don't, I don't know how I would validate those interviewees.

But yeah, they, they very much are excited and positive and haven't experienced any depth of what I've talked about so far in this interview as well as the interview content that I've heard.

That's awesome. That's really encouraging. And I think, you know, there is something to be said for quality too.

You know, it's not, we can't just be like somebody should get into a show because they are X. That's not the reality of art. And we should strive for having high quality work. And I love that you're doing that. That's why with CGA too.

Because our mission is to help increase opportunities and representation for female Western artists and makers, which means that we need to start with them early on. And so we have newbies in our organization at the open level.

But we also understand that you have to, if you want to show that women are working at this level, you have to have other things that are juried and, and ways in which to qualitate that. And so I love that you're taking that into consideration for the documentary.

I think that's going to help it be even more impactful because not everybody is working at the same level, and that's men and women and who, whatever, you know, like everybody's at different levels. So how has it felt going into these artist studios? What have you had in each?

It's been such an honor. I mean, I'm in a position of honor being invited into the homes and invited into the studios of all these amazing artists.

I don't have a background in Western art or art even. So the fact that they're even allowing the stranger into their home and then allowing me to turn on my camera and ask them questions is amazing.

But having a cup of coffee, everyone wants to start by getting to know me. So we usually spend about 30 minutes before we even jump into any interview content with the camera on.

It's having a cup of coffee, having a meal together, just getting to know each other. And usually it's in their living room or in their studio or their kitchen, which is fantastic because I'm really in their environment.

And I'm so excited to be invited in because I now consider all of them friends. I really do care about them, and I've loved experiencing this journey with them. And their art is incredible.

So to me, I'm basically meeting a celebrity in the art world who is really kicking butt, who's really risen to a certain level. That's incredible. And even with all this discrimination, even with all the difficulties and hurdles, they're the overcomers.

They're the successful ones. And so I'm celebrating their success and so excited for them and their future.

And just getting to know them and asking them their why and asking them about their journey is so fantastic. It's such a fun experience.

I'm sure a lot of the stories you're capturing are full of heritage, hard work and dedication, which is the West. Right? Those are big values in the West. And I wonder if you can speak to some of those.

Yeah, a lot. A lot of them have some connection to the West. Maybe they're currently living on a ranch.

Several that I went interviewed were at ranch homes, and sometimes they were generational homes.

But almost everybody mentioned somebody in their family that had some connection to the west, maybe their grandma or their grandfather or somehow they were. Were really introduced to this space because it's a very unique space. And not everyone lives in the West.

All of my interviews were in the Southwest of America, so I very much had that bias. But all these people were fascinated at an early age by the west that captured them. And some of them are living that lifestyle as an artist as well.

And so getting to know their why was one of my favorite questions. Like what does cowgirl spirit mean to you? Was one of my favorite questions.

And hearing a lot of varied answers, but a lot of them really, if you distill it down, it was the same answer. And it really is that grit, that hard work, that tenacity. And you have to be as an artist, to be a successful artist.

You have to be able to, to live a lifestyle where you're told no all the time and you just keep going. You believe in yourself and you believe in what you're doing. Being a woman artist is even harder.

And then Western art is considered a lesser art form.

That's another really great question I love to ask the experts is when you think about art and Western art, usually it's like the redheaded stepchild. It's. It's considered a lesser art form. And the same thing is in film. Western film is considered the Western.

Movies are considered lesser art form than the, the drama or, or other genres too. So it's really interesting. So a women artists in Western art, it's just a really interesting mix.

But yeah, it makes sense when they have a direct connection to the west because it's, it's a story that they've just been captured by and they get to tell that and embody that in their art.

What about their dedication to their craft? Have you been impressed by that or have you heard any stories that have been really inspiring to you?

Every single one. I mean even the studios that they've built, it's.

It's been amazing to see the dedication to the craft just at the level that some of these artists have.

These award winning artists, they have now really doubled down their investment and added onto their house or built separate units where there's these beautiful studios where they're just inspired. They create this environment where they can continue to make their best work.

And yeah, every single artist has had tons of work, work in progress, work that they've abandoned. Some of it I thought was amazing. I'm like, you should probably revive that one.

And then tons of just art supplies and they live this, this is not something that they're coming to after 5:00'. Clock. Like, I'll spend a couple hours doing this. They are so passionate, so dedicated and the breadth of work, I'm just always so impressed.

I'm like the quantity of work that you have on hand, there's a lot of money in that. And so a lot of them and they won't, they won't put it out into the world, maybe because it's not their best work or.

And some of it because they want to have pieces of their own work that they own, which I think is a very noble thing as well.

What about as you're visiting with the artist? I mean, you've done. You said this is your fifth documentary, I think.

Is there anything about your engagement with the women and their stories that feels innately feminine or unique to the female experience besides what we've talked about?

I think the candor of everybody.

Everybody that I've interviewed has been very honest about how they feel about the profession, how they feel that they've been perceived and that their focus on their art is really using their perspective. So it's telling their story through their perspective, which I agree.

From earlier on in our conversation, it's telling the whole story, and they're very cognizant of that. Nobody that I've talked to has been like, I'm here to make a stand for women. I'm here to break barriers. It has nothing to do with that.

I'm here to be the best artist I can be. I happen to be a woman, and I happen to be fascinated by the West. So therefore, I'm a woman artist. Or what I say, a cowgirl artist, which.

That has not been well received or received in any of the interviews because. And a fascinating answer to that is the perception when I say cowgirl artist is that they're a working cowgirl.

So there's someone who lives on a ranch and actually does ranch work. And so they're all saying no, unless they actually live on a ranch. And some were that I interviewed. Otherwise they're saying, no, I'm not a cowgirl.

I'm just a Western artist. I'm a woman Western artist. And I said, sure, but I'm using the term cowgirl artist because cowboy artist is what's used for the men.

And they're not all cowboys. It's just the term that's used. So I'm just using a similar term. But, yeah, that's not gone over well in the interviews. And it's a.

It's an aspect of respect, which I didn't know. So I've been educated during this process. But, yeah, it's very much. Everybody wants to tell their story.

Nobody's here to make waves or to break barriers. They're just trying to be their best selves and trying to be recognized as an artist.

Yeah. And I think all of that is so true. And we see that again and again as well. And. And we get emails all the time. I'm not a cowgirl.

Can I join Cowgirl Artists of Americ? And it really is about that historical context of the word and the way in which we understand Western artists.

But, yeah, I think that authenticity really is what it comes down to, and that's what you've talked about so much in the last few minutes, is the authenticity of women. And we see that in so many ways that that comes out. So it's fascinating that you're seeing it in the project as you're interviewing people as well.

Before this, before you started this project, what was your inherited picture of the west and Western art? And has it shifted since you've done this project?

Yeah, so I grew up in dc, but in high school we moved to Arizona. So I spent at least 10 years in Arizona. So the west was crazy to me.

As this new experience coming from Washington, D.C. telling my friends in high school that I'm moving to Arizona, they're like, oh, are you gonna go ride horses and drive a buggy? So, like, the concept of the west, even in a lot of the Eastern US Is old school. It's not. Not how it is today. But I was just fascinated by it.

It's a completely new environment, so I really embraced it. And I just love the art form, too, the Western art. I love the colors. They always speak to me, those jewel tones. I just.

I think it's such a fascinating capturing the landscape. It's not just brown and. And little bits of green for the cactus. Like, there's so much beauty in the west.

And the way Western artists capture it, really landscapes, really what draws me into Western art, that's just my personal preference. And then Maynard Dixon has always been a favorite of mine, so I'm really drawn to that.

But seeing all this diversity, seeing how other aspects of Western art come in, especially with women artists bringing a new perspective. Like, Maeve is such an interesting example, too. She's taking plexiglass and colored plexiglass and turning that into saddles and shirts.

And there's so many different aspects of Western art. And that's how I start my interviews. How do you, as an interviewee, define Western art?

And that's such a difficult question because is it geographical? Is there some boundary? Is there some subject matter that makes it Western art? What if you're in England and you're creating a painting about a horse?

Is that Western art? Like, there's so many really interesting ways you could tackle that question.

So, yeah, it's very much broaden my Perspective of what Western art is, what the subject matter is, and really what I enjoy too. It's not just the landscapes anymore. It's really the fine art.

I really enjoy the story that's being told and the style that someone's really crafted that's unique. And like you said, I can start to tell which art is from which artist at this point, because there's a style that they've created and this.

The sense of how they view the world that I really enjoy.

I do. I. I think one of the things that. That came up for me as you were talking is your deeper appreciation for more Western art.

And I think about how you mentioned Western art being considered kind of like a sub or lower art, which we have heard. We've have artist members who say when they were in grad school, their professor said, don't paint that or you're. You will fail.

Like, you can't do that. That's, you know, whatever. And they did it anyway, and now they're very successful.

But I wonder about that appreciation level because really, if you think about it, the thing that people are drawn to at the west and Western art is the. This iconography and this story. And.

And you think about even why some of our national parks were developed was because of Western artists painting these beautiful places and saying, look what is out here.

And so it really, when you think about that, it's really in its own right, kind of on par with like, Greek artwork because it is this masterful, epic story of a land and its people, which is really pretty incredible. That would be a whole nother topic for convers.

Were there, as you were interviewing and filming, was there any one or two moments that just really stuck out to you or you got some sort of crazy insight that you didn't expect?

Yeah. So you were one of my favorite interviews. And it's not just because you're interviewing me right now, but you.

You gave a lot more depth in the specific questions about how women are represented and how women are perceived that I hadn't heard a lot. And I just think you're so well versed in it. And you're also willing to say some things that others aren't willing to say on camera.

You didn't say anything that was insulting or that shouldn't be used in the film, in my opinion.

Of course, I'm going to share it with you before, but you really were able to tackle the hard subjects and you really spoke very eloquently and answered the questions. You never diverted from the question. So it was fantastic. My first interview was Terry Kelly Moyers.

So I was absolutely thrilled to interview her as my, my first. I want to go back and re interview her now that I know all that I know because yeah, she's just an amazing artist.

I remember sitting in in Deborah Fellow's living room before interviewing her and just being so enamored by her art.

I mean she has all the sculpture work, the body of art in her home is amazing and she's just such a well known artist and her, her husband Fred was there as well. So I got to meet a famous cowboy artist and he's so supportive of her. So that was a fantastic experience looking out into her beautiful landscape.

Mark Sublet was another fascinating interview. He actually interviewed me more than I interviewed him. So there's a podcast on that and Vero Goodnight. I mean what an amazing person.

She's just been such a champion from the moment I met her and going to her ranch. I actually spent three days. Three days with her and a full 24 hours of interview.

She said it took her three days to recover from that experience just because we went so deep. I mean there was so much.

Her breadth of work is amazing and some of the experiences she had like the day the wall came down project, I mean to such incredible work and so willing to share. So yeah, it's just been moments I've treasured.

That's really awesome. Yeah, I can't imagine 24 hours because the interview we did exhausted me. I think it would have taken three days. Yeah. To recover from that.

Man, I find it so interesting and I do feel hesitancy in talking about some things because I just think that there are so many landmines the way just be not even because of it. Like you said, this isn't a political thing. This is just people telling their stories.

But there's so many assumptions that people jump to when you say a certain thing or you use a certain word. Like there's words that have been said in this podcast. I'm like, oh my gosh.

Like are people gonna hear that and hear something a hundred percent different than what you and I are talking about and then they can't hear another word after it. And I think that's so tragic. And so I feel like to be able to show up in these things, it's.

It is really being able to be comfortable with vulnerability, which is scary. And it's not only vulnerability for yourself, but maybe your business or whatever it is.

So I think that when people are able to speak through those things it is like showing up through the fear of it, because I don't know. And. But at the end of the day, we cannot control the way other people behave, whether other people hear me.

I have spent a lot of hours trying to get somebody to understand me.

And I finally learned, and not about this is about something else, but I finally learned that you cannot do anything to make somebody understand you who doesn't want to understand you. And. And you don't have to do that much to get somebody who wants to understand you and. And what we can do for ourselves.

You know, I always think about that. You know, that there's a verse in the Bible about removing the log in your eye before you try to remove the speck in your brother's eye.

And I think about that a lot. So when I find something frustrating, is there a way to turn this in on myself or have a moment to learn?

And so I think about for these things, what can I turn in on myself to learn? And it is to be able to sit with the discomfort of someone else's opinion and to be able to be kind and curious about it.

And that's why I go, I say it all the time. Like, my two biggest values, I think, are kindness and curiosity, because if we can lean into those, we can build better communities.

And so I don't know, that's a little bit of a side trail, but I think it does have to do with what we're talking about.

I think it's so important too, for the audience that's listening to this because they're going to try to understand what's our motive, what are we, what's our end game, what's our goal? And my goal is not to convince anyone.

And in any aspect of my life, I am not trying to convince anybody of what I believe, what I think, because you're allowed to think whatever you want. And I, I'm. I'm a faith. I'm a person of faith. So I definitely believe in God, a higher power. And I believe that everybody has their version of that.

And I believe God lets us decide what that is. Not that there's. I'm not saying that he's saying that there's right or wrong, but I'm saying that he allows us to.

So how can we not allow other people to have other perspectives when our Creator, when God even allows us to. To. Even if we reject him, he allows us to reject him, which is incredible. That's true love.

So being able to love on someone enough to say, hey, we don't we don't agree on this, but why does that matter? Why can't we still be human beings and have a conversation and possibly even friends?

Because we're curious and we're intellectual and we actually want to have meaningful conversations. I don't want to be around a bunch of people that believe the same thing as me. I want to be in rooms where I'm simulated, where I'm learning.

I'm so fascinated when someone has a different perspective than me.

And then the other topic you mentioned before I jumped in was, is it effective if we're having these conversations, if someone is just so closed off to what we're doing and maybe a word triggers them or something like that? And I think about the gorilla girls. I mean, they were so out there and so loud, but how impactful was that? Right.

It's still talked about today, and it definitely had its, its moment. But what we're trying to do is educate people is to say, hey, this, this is a part of the story that maybe you haven't heard yet.

Maybe this is the opportunity for you to hear it. We're not forcing it down your throat.

We're not saying you need to believe this certain thing or do a certain thing, because I'm not prescribing a solution either. I'm just telling a story, and I'm letting people who've experienced this tell their story. And I've heard a lot of different perspectives.

So when you watch the documentary, it's not going to be one neat statement that's telling you to believe a certain thing.

It's literally 50 different people giving me their, their life story, their journey, and connecting those into a meaningful narrative is my, my intent. And it's really to educate and it's to expose a story that maybe you haven't heard, but it's not to convince you or to make you do something.

Yeah. And what a way to understand the world in a deeper capacity is by listening to all those stories, not just, you know, being open to listen to those.

And as far as motive goes, everybody can go to cowgirlartistsofamerica.org to find out mine, which is to help women grow their career through community education, collaboration and promotion.

And we actually were, to my knowledge, one of the first art organizations dedicated to women and often even including those dedicated to men, to accept members of the opposite gender. We've been open to men since the beginning. It was kind of quiet at first, but now we actually advertise it because we do think we're better together.

And so, you know, I don't know.

I think I feel a lot that I have to keep really explaining myself in these, in these conversations because I want people to really understand the motive and where we're coming from. And I think that, that you've said it so well.

And I think when your documentary comes out and people are able to see it, they're going to be able to see it's a generous act to tell the stories that are being untold or that aren't being seen as much. And so I'm, I. I just can't wait to see it. How are you really?

It's helped elevate my brand. My personal brand is underrepresented voices. So I'm really trying to amplify underrepresented voices.

I have a degree in screenwriting, which I was focused on fiction. So I actually have 12 scripts that I've written that are fiction scripts. And then here I am working on five documentaries, true life stories.

So I really, I'm just fascinated by story. So whenever I hear a story that I feel like has. Is worthy of being on film, I want to help tell that story.

And I love true stories because they're so much more meaningful. I mean, you can come up with a crazy story and try to have an agenda attached to it and really try to, to make something with fiction.

But I think it's so much more effective when it's a true story. Someone's really overcome some amazing obstacle. Their why and their how and just the pursuit of, of their goal, even with those obstacles in place.

That's why we always come back to movies like Rocky that are just so inspirational. And when they're based on the true story, there's so much more power behind them than just something that's made up.

Yeah.

And any artist, I don't care if you're a man or a woman, any artist who has made it, that's an incredible story because like you said, making it as an artist is incredibly challenging. I always tell our artists there is no other market like the art market. And so, yeah, just. That's inspiring in and of itself, I feel like.

And then getting to hear these women and their stories, I think is going to be spectacular. Is there anything that we haven't covered? We're going to talk about how to support the project in a second.

But just as far as the project or your experience, is there anything else you want to share?

Yeah. So, I mean, I didn't think, like, who am I to tell this story, Right. I'm, I'M a guy.

I don't have a background in art, but really as a filmmaker, it's another art form. So I've been very much embraced into the art world as another artist, which I didn't consider myself to be when I started making this film. Filmmaker.

I'm very much a producer. So I'm thinking about what's the saleability, what's the market of this, this project. But this is just a story that I'm passionate about.

So it's become a passion project where I'm just really looking to uncover all these untold stories. And I've created this brand around it where now I'm really always looking for those amplifying, underrepresented voices.

So all the documentary projects that I'm working on really fit that brand. And the ones I'm pitching, I'm actually pitching quite a few very exciting new projects that are all around that same idea.

Because when I scroll through Netflix or any of these other channels, I'm so tired of all these murder mysteries. And even if they're true stories, like why do I want to know about the serial killer? I mean, it's not interesting to me.

And all this stuff about witchcraft and, I don't know, it's just not uplifting content. And these true stories are absolutely incredible. I naturally gravitate to them that those are the types of stories that I watch.

I love documentary so very much. Being embraced as an artist, being a filmmaker has been amazing. And really being able to see, it's hard being a filmmaker. It's hard being an artist.

So I actually am embracing that same journey. So I understand the tenacity that it takes.

Yeah, that's amazing.

So for people who are listening and they're excited about this project and they want to support it, can you tell us a little bit about where you are in the project or goals and then tell them how they can become a part of this project?

Yeah, so our goal is to really about a hundred thousand dollars is what we want to raise. And that could be either as an investor, so a part owner in the film, or as donations. Happy to have a mix of those two methods.

But really, $100,000 gets us to a level of quality that we can release this film and really win some awards at these art. It's getting into shows, getting into these. Just like as an artist, you need to get into these juried shows.

The film world's the same if you're able to get into these art. These film festivals, like Tribeca, like South by Southwest, These very important shows.

That's where you get the credibility and that's also where you get your initial audience, that then you're able to go to a Netflix or you're able to go to an hbo, which are two of my top channels that I really want to have this film released on. You can't just go and knock on their door and say, hey, I have this film, or hey, I have this idea.

Even worse, you really have to have a final product that's polished, it's edited, and it's ready to be viewed, which includes the licensing for the music and all the team that I have to pay, that I haven't paid for all their work.

So it's, it's an expensive endeavor, but a hundred thousand dollars for a high quality documentary that has the potential to make money when it's licensed to other larger distributors like Netflix and hbo. I'm already starting to talk to European distributors, so it's amazing the potential reach that it has. But again, this film isn't completed.

The content, the interviews. I've completed 50 interviews. But now it really needs to be polished.

It needs to be edited to the point where like we talked about in this interview is you have to lead someone down this journey. It has to be engaging the whole time. It also can't be too in your face.

It can't make the audience not want to continue watching it, but really show the whole story. And I have 50 interviews that I can pull from. So there's a lot of depth and breadth to the potential of this film.

But to make it a, an hour and a half feature documentary, it really needs to be edited well. It needs to be finished well. So raising 100,000 to do that.

My, my internal motivation is just to do a cut that I'm the only editor, so I've been the writer, director, cinematographer, and now the editor. And so to do that, I can just do it on my own dime and release it for something like Cowgirl up, which will also get visibility.

But I really do want to raise $100,000 where I can bring in a high quality team and really get this into these shows. Tribeca, south by Southwest, where it can, it can then be elevated. And that's really the goal.

It's to be seen by a large audience so that this is an awareness type of project. And then also so it can get recognition so that more people will see it and so that'll be more an impressive story that's being told.

I think the content's there because I've Been a part of all these interviews and the stories are amazing. It's just really getting it finished to the point where anybody can see it.

And it's high enough quality level where it can be on these premier platforms.

Yeah. And so if people want to support the project, where can they go? And we'll put it in the show notes too. But is it all through GoFundMe right now?

Yeah.

So GoFundMe is, is the platform for donations and that you can see the link if you go to my website, which is sonofabotanist.com There's a link for Cowgirls. That's one of my projects and that's the one we're talking about. There's a link to the GoFundMe on that page.

And I'm working on several other documentaries, some that aren't even published there yet. But this is really one that I'm very passionate about.

And we do need to raise the funds to actually make it at the quality level that will be seen by the large audience we want to attract.

And what about if somebody wants to go the investment route? Do they email you or is there a button on your website?

Yeah, just contact me. I have a full 30 page business plan with all the back end explained. Yeah, film is a very complicated investment.

So, yeah, I have all of that explained. But I've been in business for 20 years, so I'm very familiar with all of these terms and I made a robust business plan.

So this is not just some hopeful wishful thing.

And actually the content's already wrapped, so this is an amazing time for someone who would want to invest or to donate to get it to the finish, finish line. And it's called a finishing fund.

And so, yeah, that's absolutely where we're at and that's where we need to be in order to have this at maximum potential.

That's awesome. Anything else you want to share?

I don't think so. I think we covered all right. But I really appreciated your interview.

I know at the show it was chaotic to pull you away and do that interview, but I mean, what you said was very. Was one of the best interviews that I had and just so thankful for your participation and for your encouragement on this whole project.

Yeah, well, I'm proud to be a part of it and glad to be able to help you and. And so I, I can't wait to see the finished piece.

So every woman Marquez filmed carried a piece of western history, a piece that deserves to be preserved, honored and understood. These stories are an integral part of the truth of the West. If this conversation resonated with you, please help bring these stories to the screen.

You can find the link to support in the show notes. Marc, thank you for what you're doing and helping to tell these stories.

Appreciate it. Thank you. Megan.