Explore the power of Christian authenticity in discipleship with Yolanda Solomon, author of "Discipleship as Holy Collaboration," in this compelling Pivot podcast episode. Yolanda shares her journey from skeptic to passionate disciple-maker, offering insights for church leaders seeking to foster genuine faith in a world craving sincerity.

Discover practical strategies for cultivating authentic Christian living, from reframing discipleship as an invitation to divine delight to creating transparent spiritual communities. Whether you're a pastor battling burnout or a ministry leader striving for genuine impact, you'll find valuable approaches for reimagining discipleship as a collaborative, authentic adventure in faith.

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Q4 Webinar: The Path from “I” to “We”: Extending Christian Community to the Neighborhood

Yolanda: And this is what I tell them, is, number one, you're not the Holy Spirit. We are not called to work. The miracle of transformation in people. That's the Holy Spirit's job and the Holy Spirit's really good at their job. Um, the second thing I tell them is, in discipleship, what we want to do is point people to Jesus, not us. And that usually takes a little bit of the pressure off because they're like, well, you know, I struggle with doubt myself. I'm kind of I don't know if I believe all this yet. Right? And I'm like, that's okay. You're not pointing them to be a clone of you. We're pointing them to Jesus. We are all what is. Let us look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. And so, number one, you're not the Holy Spirit. Number two, we're we're not pointing people to culture. We're pointing them to Christ.

Dwight: Today on the show. Whose responsibility is it in the church to disciple others? Many Christians tend to think of that as the pastor's job, but Jesus commanded all his disciples to make disciples. So how do we create a culture of collaborative discipleship in our congregations? Hello everyone. I'm Dwight Zscheile.

Alicia: And I'm Alicia Granholm. Welcome to the Pivot podcast, where we explore how to follow God into a faithful future by equipping all God's people to love and lead in the way of Jesus. We are really excited to welcome Yolanda Solomon as our guest today. She is the author of the new book Discipleship as Holy Collaboration Helping Others Follow Jesus in Real Life. She's also the Director of Discipleship at Epiphany Church in Brooklyn, New York, and has worked in campus ministry at Columbia University. Yolanda, welcome. Thank you.

Yolanda: Hi. Hello, Alicia and Dwight. How are you guys doing today?

Alicia: We're doing great. We're really excited to have you with us today.

Yolanda: I'm really excited to be here.

Dwight: So, Yolanda begin by telling us a bit about your own discipleship journey. So how did you come to faith and what differences Jesus made in your life?

Yolanda: Oh, man. All right. I'm going to try to give you all a medium, uh, version of this. And so I actually grew up in church. I grew up going to a predominantly African American Baptist church in Brooklyn, which is where I was born and raised. Um, and I was a church kid, you know, I did the youth choir and Girl Scouts and the usher board. I don't know if y'all know the usher board. Uh, we were the greeters. Um, uh, I mean, I was in church multiple days a week, and church was fun. Church was fun. Um, a lot of my friends went to church, um, and so church was a really fun place, uh, for me as a child, even as a teenager. Um, when I went to college, I went to college in upstate New York, and I stopped going to church. Now, I didn't necessarily stop going to church because I didn't want to go, but none of my friends went to church. It just was a new situation and a new context. And so it was one of those things where it's like, wow, if no one's making me go and none of my friends go, I really I'm not going to go. However, I did join a gospel choir at, uh, Cornell University, um, because I like to sing. And so that's just ironic that I was doing Christian activities, but not necessarily going to church. Um, and so a few years into college, I did a semester in Los Angeles because that was my major. I was a TV and film major. And so it was the semester before I was going to graduate. I knew I was either going to live in New York or in LA, and I was trying LA out. I was interning on a show called Dawson's Creek. I'm dating myself. And, uh Carsey-Werner. I did another internship at a production company, uh, called Carsey-Werner, and I really was going to decide, am I going to live there or live here after graduation? So my goal was go out there and schmooze in the book. I say God had other goals. Um, a friend of ours, a friend of my family, also lived out there, and she reached out to me. When I got out there, she was a working actress, but we'd grown up in the same church, and she invited me to church and I told her, no, thank you. Um, I wasn't really interested in going to church. However, she was a working actress, a pretty successful actress, also a dancer. We'd go into the same performing arts high school back in New York City, and she, uh. How can I say? I think I say in the book she discipled me without me knowing it. And what that means is she and I wouldn't have said this back then, but she, you know, so I didn't have a car, which you can do in New York City, but not so much in LA. So she would offer. Oh, you need a car out here. Do you need a ride to get groceries? And, um, I don't know if you guys are familiar with Los Angeles traffic, but it's horrible. And so I and, you know, looking back, I'm like, wow, that was the most Christ like thing a person can do. Um, offering to, you know, pick me up, drive me to the grocery store, bring me back, and then go back to her home, which was not close. Um, and she she was like a grown woman. I was in college. She had a job. She had jobs. And so what happened was, I think I say in the book, discipleship is caught, not just taught. And I was watching her life. And I wouldn't have said this back then, but I think what she did was she embodied discipleship. She with her life, with her time, with her money, with her ear. She walked beside me and just loved me. Right. She just I believe she showed me the love of Jesus. Um, and she, you know, she didn't kind of take my no thank you for church as. No thank you. And so long story short, she continued to be a friend. She continued to she shared her community with me. She would, uh, introduce me around because I was very interested in networking. And so she would, um, introduce me to people in the industry and answer questions. And she always would say, if you ever want to go to church, doesn't matter where you are, you know, where I live. I will leave a key to my house and a flower pot by the door. I don't know if you do that in New York, but out in. Her neighborhood. She lived in Beverly Hills. Leave the key by the flowerpot. And one night and I talk about this in the book, I won't go into too much detail. I came to her house, and it was. It was a rough night. It was a kind of a pivotal point in the semester. And I had some decisions to make. And I remember thinking, out of all the people that I'm out here working with, working for, wanting to be like wanting to schmooze with, she has the most joy out of all the people I know out here, whether she's working or not, which I found out that was a big deal for actresses. So whether she was booked or not, she had joy. Um, you know, she never changed depending on whether she was driving me to get groceries or whether we were at the Soul Train Music Awards or at the House of Blues after party or at some, you know, industry event. She was the same person and her name is Ariyan Johnson. Um, and so Ariyan left this open invitation one late Saturday night. I stumbled into her house, and I remember when I woke up, I was very, very drunk. She said, you look awful. Let's go to the afternoon service. And we did. And we went to a church called Faithful Central Bible Church in Inglewood with Bishop Kenneth Ulmer was the pastor. And for the first time, I believe the Word of God kind of penetrated my heart. Um, I go into detail in the book, um, but for the sake of the podcast, I really was forced to wrestle with the Word of God for myself. And I made a decision that day, you know, to follow Jesus.

Alicia: Yolanda, thanks so much for sharing that story. I'm curious, um, how your own journey has, you know, influenced how you understand and what you understand discipleship to be?

Yolanda: Yeah. And so that journey, I mean, it what I, what what I think is the most pivotal part is that she, her life did so much talking without her saying a word. Now, yes. Once I went to church with her, I had a million questions and she would answer them as best she could. Uh, I started, you know, catching a bus from the Valley to Inglewood to go to Bible study. And, you know, she'd come and see me and ask how I was doing. But her life spoke volumes about what it meant to follow Jesus. She actually seemed to enjoy following Jesus like she had a real joy about it. And I think for me now, you know, fast forward 20 or so years, um, I'm really myself, uh, as I work in ministry, I worked in campus ministry before I began working at our local church here in Brooklyn. Um, and I just try to be myself. I think early on in ministry, I tried to be like other pastors and preachers that I admired, and it was a mess. It was a train wreck. Um, very exhausting to try to be someone else. But I think over the years, particularly working with college students who are just very intuitive, you know, they haven't learned how to fake it yet. Um, they're, they they enjoyed me being me. And they would say things like, Yolanda, you seem like somebody that is like normal, like you're not a weirdo. And I know they didn't mean any harm by that, but like, you make God, you make following Jesus seem like something I can do because you just seem so regular. And so I think her just not giving me a discipleship script and not giving me a five point plan of how to follow Jesus, but literally just embodying, I think, the compassion and the love of Jesus and allowing me to see that. Um, but again, having that Bible ready if I had questions has definitely influenced how I, you know, try to make disciples.

Alicia: Yeah. Thanks. I love that. Um, can you share a little bit with our listeners about what, um, you know, a little bit more about your ministry context, uh, at Epiphany and, um, you know, what, what discipleship looks like there and maybe some challenges as well.

Yolanda: Oh, yeah. Um, and so the church that I attend and I'm on staff at, on the ministerial staff is predominantly millennial Gen Z Christians. I would say predominantly, you know, you have black black people, African American, Latinos, um, Asian American, um, that's the predominant demographic of the church. And they are very they don't read the Bible. Uh, they don't really read much, you know, and that's no shade, you know, shout out to all my epiphany family. Y'all know I love you. Um, that that generation doesn't really read everything is like videos. And so to expect them to, like, read the Bible, um, they, they, they really don't. And so they are not necessarily new Christians. But seeing the Bible as what I call a meta narrative is, uh, or just a big story of redemption. And God's creation is something that I help them to see that, you know, Haggai is connected to the book of acts, and Amos is connected to, uh, you know, first Peter and seeing just that narrative of creation and redemption and recreation and consummation as something that it's a story that they're being invited to is a challenge to, to say, like, hey, the Bible is not this fragmented bit that you kind of pick and choose from. Um, I teach a lot of classes. I teach discipleship classes at church, kind of beginner, intermediate, advanced classes. I do discipleship training. I train discipleship leaders so that our pastor and the pastors aren't the only people making disciples. Um, one of the challenges I face is disillusionment. Um, it is 2024, and I would say the past ten years, I feel like every day has been sometimes feels like it's been picked out of the book of revelation, right? Between the pandemic, um, between, you know, uh, the cultural, um, how can I put it just just the craziness of political idolatry and the elections and the cosmic polarization in Christians and in churches in New York City, even, um, uh, I, like I said, political idolatry. And just I see a disillusionment, particularly among my context, where they see the loudest Christians. They're not, I don't think, the biggest, but to them, they see that the Christians with the loudest voices, with the biggest platforms seem to be Christian nationalists. They seem to be white supremacists. They seem to be very sexist and misogynistic and so, um, helping. Them to kind of. Uh, how can I say, uh, separate? This is this is, you know, what you're seeing over here is nationalism isn't necessarily, uh, the Jesus of the scriptures. Um, but and that's a huge part of what I do. I actually teach a class called Jesus and Justice at our, at our church to help them to see, like, you don't have to throw away your heart for social justice to be a Christian. Um, Jesus actually cares more about justice than any of us. Um, and then finally, just on a very plain level, a lot of them see discipleship as just I'm giving up everything pleasurable about life and just reframing discipleship and following Jesus as an invitation into the divine life, as something that is actually really, really beautiful. Um, not just good and right, even though it is, but beautiful. I actually wanted to call my book, uh, The Beauty of Discipleship. But you know how sometimes other people have the name of your book? Because, you know, there are things that we know to do that are beautiful and good and right, that we don't do, uh, even though they're good. Uh, but, you know, we're naturally attracted to beauty. And so I'm constantly in my discipleship classes pointing them to the life of Jesus and trying to encourage them and, and myself to encounter Jesus in the word, um, and see him as beautiful, um, and see the kingdom of God as attractive as this alternative, beautiful way of life and this abundant life that God calls us to enter in. Right now. I think a lot of them see, uh, the goal of Christianity as happening after you die and me trying to reframe, no, God calls us into the abundant life right now. Uh, discipleship is something that we can enter into in the land of the living. Yeah.

Dwight: So one of the kind of key pivots that we talk a lot about in this podcast is a shift on the part of leaders from focusing on trying to make, you know, and retain institutional members, right, of an institutional church, to really cultivating a culture of discipleship where there are expectations, there's a clear vision for what it means to follow Jesus in daily life. And and then there are practices by which, you know, people who are part of the church kind of can try that on and go deeper into it and all of that. And so I'd love to hear a little more from your perspective. Um, you know, just that connection between following Jesus and, and real life as you talk about, you know, in the, in the title of your book. Right. So how did this actually land in people's everyday lives? And I wonder if there are any stories you have of, of that or maybe some other, some illustrations of where that that happened or maybe some challenges. And what would you say to church leaders who maybe don't have an inherited culture of discipleship in their congregations, and they're trying to lean into that?

Yolanda: Um, yeah. I try to keep it super simple, because discipleship is a very churchy word. Honestly, growing up, no one talked about discipleship in my church. It was like Sunday school. And, you know, you go to a new member's class or something and maybe someone invites you to go to McDonald's to get, you know, a burger or something after church and you hang out with them and they talk to you, um, about Jesus. But when you talk about moving from a culture of membership to discipleship, I think discipleship. I try to really make it plain that we are. It's receiving Jesus's invitation to follow in his footsteps, right? A disciple is a follower like I. And again, I try to make it super plain. And so if if we're if a disciple is a follower, Jesus is calling us to follow in his footsteps. And so God invites us into this divine life to receive new life in Christ and not just to receive life, but to participate in our everyday lives in the continuation of the mission of Jesus. Right. And so how does that look? And I and I talk about this in terms of like most of you guys struggle to do this by yourself. And that's because I don't think we were ever created to follow by ourselves. So I kind of moved them from a framework of I'm individually following Jesus, my older brother. That's how we like to refer to Jesus. Hebrews chapter two is a favorite of mine. Uh, but we're following together right? And so discipleship is a corporate expression of obedience to God. Right? Because we're following. But it's a corporate expression of love for neighbor. So we're loving each other together in a way that allows other people to see what Jesus's love looks like in practice. Right. And so real world, real world, what that looks like is, um, what does it look like to kind of keep our eyes on Jesus together, to follow together? Who are you connected to? That's usually the first step. Like we like, there's no paradigm for Lone Ranger Christianity. Um, who I use John chapter 15 a lot in my teaching, you know, the vine and the branches. And even though we're in New York City, you know, we garden, we have our little urban gardens. So I asked, like, who is your companion plant? Like, who are you friends with? Not just like, who are you networking with? Who are you working with? Who are you trying to like, you know, uh, do business with because people come to New York City to grind. And I remind, uh, you know, my, my, my brothers and sisters at church, we're not coffee beans. Like, we're not just only meant to grind like and be ground like. Rest is a part of discipleship following together. So, number one, who are you following alongside? And that usually takes a little while of like, wow, I really don't know if I have any Christian friends. And so now it's like, all right, look around you. Who who's cool? Like like, who's your Ariyan? Who who is not a weirdo that you actually see following. And you would like to follow alongside them. And maybe I can make that introduction. I set up a lot of I call myself a Holy Ghost matchmaker. I spend a lot of time connecting our discipleship leaders to people who are seeking to be discipled. Um, and so that's a huge part of it. I'm trying to remember the second part of your question. Help me out. Help me out, Dwight.

Dwight: No, no, this is great. I think, um, I was just curious, like, some stories around, you know, like some people in daily life where, you know, following Jesus made a difference. And I know you tell some stories in the book, but are the things that that you'd want to share?

Yolanda: Yeah. I think, you know, it's one thing to tell people, you know, Jesus says in Mark chapter ten verse 45, you know, I didn't come to, uh, be served, but to serve and give my life as a ransom for many. It's another thing to serve alongside people. Right? And so one of the things, you know, I encourage people in our church to do is if you're going to a soup kitchen, if you're going to tutoring, if you're going to do anything that involves service. Because to me, the heart of discipleship is service. It's service motivated by love, right? We're serving each other. Jesus washes his disciples feet and then tells his disciples, do the same thing. Make a pattern of doing that. And every time you do that, remember that I did it for you. And this is how people are going to know you're following me, because you're going to love them the way I loved you. And so anything that kind of is a metaphor for foot washing, right? Bring the person that you're discipling along, let them serve alongside you. Let them see that following Jesus isn't just mental assent to doctrine, but it's like helping my cousin with their homework after school or, you know, volunteering at a place where God is already working, which might not be the church, right? It might be one of the many community organizations in New York City. We have billions of them actually here. Right? Join God where God is doing, where God is working. Excuse me and bring somebody along so that they can begin to see. Catch a vision for following Jesus with all of our senses. Um, I think one of the stories I tell in the book, I don't know, you know, Dwight, there's so many, uh, manuscripts and editions, you know, this is my first book, so I'm like, what got cut and what's still inside? But I think one of the stories that's still in there is, um, one of the groups of people I like to encourage are young parents in our church. I have two children. And, you know, when you're a young parent, you're going through it. It's rough. Um, and so I enjoy taking walks, prayer walks with young parents because they usually don't have time to sit in a. Coffee shop for two hours and just dissect the book of Romans. Right. And there are they're sleepy. Um, and they're about ready to die. And so let's just go for a walk, especially while the weather is nice. And let's pray together as we walk and let's talk together. And I need the exercise, and you need somebody to talk to and pray with. And so those are, you know, and particularly in a city like New York where it's very pedestrian, pedestrian, you can do that sort of thing. Um, that's one of the practical things that I do. I'll just set up a 25 minute prayer walk with someone, and we'll just go for a walk and talk and pray. And I invite our discipleship leaders to do that, because a lot of them will say, well, I don't have time, Yolanda. And I'm like, you don't. Doesn't take much. You know, some of the best discipleship comes giving somebody a ride home from somewhere or just walking to the subway station together. Um, or you're going this way. I'm going this way. Let's talk. Yeah.

Alicia: I love that. As a mom of of four and seven year old, I can relate.

Yolanda: Yeah. No.

Alicia: You know, I was thinking too about, um. I long ago, uh, I was a youth pastor, and I was just reminded that, um, one of the things that we would do is, uh. So I was a youth pastor at a, uh, Lutheran church, so we had confirmation, uh, for our middle schoolers and, um. We'd gather on Wednesday nights. And one of the things that kind of to your point of of, um, right, learning how to um, not, you know. Yes. Love our neighbors practically, uh, out of the outflow, right. Of, um, just our own relationship with God and Jesus. Um, but also where, uh, how do we how does God show up in, in the real world, right outside of the four walls of our of our church building? Um, so once a month, we would either do a, um, a service night. So there's small groups would just go out and serve together or do like a fun night where they would just, you know, just kind of build that community element. Um, and the kids, they would they preferred the service nights over, like the, the just, you know, fun fellowship nights, if you will. And I think it's right. There's that. It's, uh. We don't want to serve out of the out of the what we get out of it, but. Right. It's mutually beneficial.

Yolanda: Um, maybe we should.

Alicia: Maybe we should.

Yolanda: Maybe we should. I think there's something, and kids get it, but I think we get it, too. In the book, I talk about the fact that Jesus is a great teacher and his his his pedagogical didactic right. His teaching strategy is I do, we do, you do. And when you think about how most of us learn and you see this with kids like my oldest son, he is a kinesthetic learner. It's always hands on. A lot of times people don't learn by imitation. You can learn by imitation, but that's not for everyone. And we see that in the scriptures. Jesus moves from doing things and having his disciples watch, which sometimes they catch things. But eventually Jesus moves to working with his disciples. Which is why I called the book Discipleship as Holy Collaboration. Right? In the book of John, chapter 11, Jesus raises Lazarus from the dead. But then he tells his disciples, you guys unwrap him, unbind him, and loose him. In other words, I want you guys to get so close to the miracle that I just performed. You're going to smell him. You're going to touch him. You're going to get close to him. I imagine Lazarus was a little wobbly when he came out of the grave. Right. Put your arm under his arm. Right. This is my little sanctified imagination. Help him walk. And I can't think of a better metaphor for discipleship as us walking alongside people who are new, right, newly reborn in the Lord, and helping them to unwrap and untangle from things that are destructive, from things that have to do with death. And when I think about children and just that hands on learning, you know, when I was a child, um, my youth pastor used to take us to the nursing homes on the fifth Sunday. That was Youth Sunday. Right. Um, and we would give communion to what we called the sick and shut in, and even I didn't, I wasn't I didn't have the language for this back then. But there was something different about taking communion and holding the hand, the soft, wrinkled hand of an elderly person, than sitting in a pew and hearing a sermon. You can be discipled by both. But there was something embodied about singing a hymn with those old folks, and us doing it together as kids and seeing their eyes light up and seeing the joy and and me feeling what I felt was, I'm doing this. I'm a real Christian, even though I'm a teenager. And I think for those of you and I don't know your listeners who are discipling, particularly younger people, sometimes they feel like that's for the grown ups, that's for the older folks, but inviting them to do what they can do because it makes it real. Sometimes this being born again thing, it doesn't always feel real to us. I think as grown ups, we can even admit that. But it when you're when when you're doing it as a group, when it's embodied, when you're introduced to the body of Christ, it, it it makes it so much more real because it's there's a tangible there's a tangibility. I don't know if even that's a word. Right. There's a tangibility to it. Where my faith is, is something that I'm working out like this isn't. It's an outworking of what I believe. Right? I believe that I'm called to love. I believe that, you know, God loved me and was motivated to be my salvation because he loved me. Not just me, but us. And so now I'm called to bind myself to people in the way that God has bound himself to us. I love that that's so beautiful.

Alicia: Um, in your book, you give some other examples from Jesus's life to illustrate, you know, this embodied discipleship. Um, could you share a few more of those examples and maybe how we can apply them to our own lives today?

Yolanda: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I didn't mean to cut you off. Um, I, I think I mentioned Lazarus already, one of my favorite. And here's the thing about Jesus, one of the things I talk about in my discipleship classes is habits, right? I don't know if you guys are familiar with James K Smith. He's one of my favorite authors. He talks about the power of habit. Um, and this is a great way to kind of get non churchy people to talk about discipleship. Right. And I say, you know, our habits form us. What were Jesus's habits. Right? Jesus always seemed to have a habit of table fellowship with strangers. Jesus never seemed to meet someone who wasn't a friend, and Jesus was constantly eating. If he wasn't eating, he was feeding someone. And I see the table as a metaphor for embodied discipleship. Um, all through the gospels, you can pick any gospel you want. Jesus will perform these these miracles around food, right? Fish and loaves. And he's around people and he's ministering to them. But then the people get hungry for actual food, right? The sermon is good, but I'm starving. Jesus. And so Jesus will create food out of nothing, it seems, or out of little. And then he'll tell the disciples, you guys pass it out, you guys distribute it. I'm going to do the miracle. But you guys go from patch of grass to patch of grass and literally distribute my miracle. I want you guys to touch the fish and touch. The bread and hand it out, and so be my hands and so be my feet. And I think in that moment, Jesus is teaching his disciples and teaching us, um, that ministry isn't just about giving people information. It's not just about doctrine. Even though doctrine is important, it's about serving people and serving all of them. It's holistic. Right? And so what are people's felt needs? What are people's cultural concerns and their, uh, socio economic concerns? And right, like, yeah, we're going to share the word with them. But the ministry that we are offering to people this good news, it has to touch mind, body and soul like people are hungry, you know, like for real food. Um, and so that's one of those embodied, uh, discipleship lessons. I call it a we do lesson that Jesus works. And how that works itself out in my context is when you're in New York City or any city, you're constantly surrounded by people you know. And when I was up in Ithaca in college, you know, you could drive around in a car and you could you could avoid people. And I'm sure people in New York City can avoid people if they try hard enough. But here we're always surrounded by people. So one of the things that will happen is I'll be meeting with someone in a formal or informal discipleship meeting, and a homeless person, an unhoused person, will come up to us and either try to sell us something or ask us for money or food. And in that moment, um, usually. Well, I used to be annoyed, you know, like, come on, man, I'm trying to, you know, but what? As I begin to pray, particularly when I was working in campus ministry, I remember thinking to myself, Yolanda, you are so silly. God just gave you an opportunity. To to to illustrate how to be good news to someone in front of this person that you've been trying to disciple and teach about Jesus being good news to the poor. And stop seeing this as a interruption, and see this as an invitation to be literal good news to a poor person. Right. And and we I think we kind of forget like when Jesus, Jesus was always good news to poor people, like, yes, the poor in spirit. But like when Jesus, you know, I don't know what him and Zacchaeus talked about in Luke chapter 19. But the next thing you know, there was reparations. Zacchaeus is handing out a money fourfold to all those poor people in Jericho that he had fleeced not too long ago. And so that is just one example of embodied discipleship. Yeah.

Dwight: So for those maybe listeners who are wondering, maybe feeling a little bit like I'm not qualified to be someone to disciple someone, or what if I do that, I might maybe do more harm than good? What practical steps would you offer to someone who's just kind of unsure, maybe, about taking on that role of, of really of, you know, owning that, that work of discipling?

Yolanda: Yeah. Well, I, I get that a lot. Surprise, surprise. Um, and it's usually the people who I believe would make the best disciples. These are the quiet, humble, patient, kind people. Uh, who are like, no, no, pick someone who's a much better speaker or more charismatic. And I'm like, no, no, you, um. And what I tell them is, number one, you're not the Holy Spirit. We are not called to work. The miracle of transformation in people. That's the Holy Spirit's job and the Holy Spirit's really good at their job. Um, the second thing I tell them is, in discipleship, what we want to do is point people to Jesus, not us. And that usually takes a little bit of the pressure off because they're like, well, you know, I struggle with doubt myself. I'm kind of I don't know if I believe all this yet. Right? And I'm like, that's okay. You're not pointing them to be a clone of you. We're pointing them to Jesus. We are all what is. Let us look to Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith. And so, number one, you're not the Holy Spirit. Number two, we're we're not pointing people to culture. We're pointing them to Christ. Um, number three, it's service. It's service. It's service motivated by love. And so you're not necessarily trying to be God for this person. You are looking to serve this person and listening to them. Right? I, one of the things I love to, to, to point out is how good of a listener Jesus is, because usually they're worried of what if I say the wrong thing? I'm going to lead them astray. I'm going to lead them off the path of following God. Right? They'll be worse off for having talked to me. And I'm like, let's look through the Gospels, let's look at Jesus. Let's stick with the Lazarus story. Before Jesus resurrects Lazarus, he spends so much time talking to his disciples, convincing them that you guys aren't going to Bethany to die. Number two, talking to Lazarus' sisters, grieving with them, crying with them, hearing their frustration around God. Right. So many people, uh, you know, that I meet. They are frustrated. They are angry. They are a little confused. And that frustration is that God has disappointed them. And I point them to Jesus doing some of his best ministry by listening to the frustration that Mary and Martha in this passage, you know, Jesus, if you were here, our brother wouldn't have died. And I say, how many people do you know that are struggling with grief and all they want is for someone to hear them out at, of, of and to know it's okay to be angry at God, right? The ministry of presence is so important. And so they go, oh wow, Yolanda, I don't have to talk at first. No, actually, the less talking, the better. Get to know people is another thing I say, so that you're not wasting time answering questions that they're not asking. Right. We come with our three point sermon on sovereignty and the suffering of God. Nobody wants to hear that when they're grieving. Listen to them, hear their heart, learn their cultural concerns, and and take it from there. And so, uh, reminding people that the Holy Spirit does the work, pointing people to Jesus and not ourselves, being a really good listener, um, not trying to disciple people by themselves, like reminding them, hey, you guys have us, like, your elders are here, your pastors are here. Call your mom. I'm sure she'll be so excited that you're discipling someone and she can. And oh my gosh, what a mother's day gift. Mom, could you pray for me? I'm discipling someone. Call grandma, right? Like, let other people in because it is a collaboration I'll never forget. Um, when I first started working in campus ministry, um, I was dealing with the issue of, of a, uh, I guess, bulimia, anorexia. A lot of the women that I was discipling would say, I think I have an eating disorder. I'm not eating. I don't know how much of that is due to workaholism. I don't think this is pleasing to God. What do I do? And to be quite honest, as an African American woman, where that's not necessarily the issue. I remember saying to myself, I really have no experience dealing with this. And but my friend, my ministry partner who came out of Texas and out of a context working with cheerleaders, she was like, oh yeah, Yolanda, I got I've got some resources for you. And so again, like not feeling like you have to have all the answers, not feeling like you have to. You know, I remember when I started teaching high school, Sunday school and thinking, I have to answer every question that these high schoolers have about God. The Bible says, you know, have always be be ye also ready, right? You know, uh, you know, have an answer for, you know, when people ask you where your hope comes from. But I didn't have all the answers, you know, but then inviting other people in who were praying for an opportunity to embody their faith, who would who are so happy to come alongside me and say, oh, yeah, I'd love to pray for you, or oh, yeah, I think I have something for these, you know, teenagers. Yeah, that they could use. So.

Alicia: Oh, that's so beautiful. Um, I love that imagery too, right. I think, I think a lot of us, uh, struggle with that, you know, those unrealistic expectations of how we're supposed to show up if we're going to be disciple, disciple making disciples. Um, well, let me get ready first. You know, let me prepare first. Let me do all the things and then seminary.

Yolanda: Let me take I'm ready.

Alicia: Right. Yeah.

Yolanda: And I'm like, you know, seminary is great, but honestly, sometimes people just want somebody to listen to. I mean, I try to. You might be the only person asking this person how are you? And then listening and looking them in the eye and not looking at your phone while they're talking to you that they've experienced all week. And you might say, well, I'm not Jesus. You know, none of us are. But you can embody the patience of Jesus. You can embody the compassion of Jesus, you know? And so that's something that, you know, I'm regularly trying to encourage and invite people into.

Alicia: Yeah. And and it's so doable. Right? I mean, anybody can listen, uh, when, when we, when we were intentional about it, um, what would you say for maybe pastors who want to make a shift, um, to really raising up disciples who are making disciples in their congregations or in their community and context? What do you like? What sorts of things might they need to start or stop doing from from your experience?

Yolanda: Oh, Alicia, um, my advice for pastors might seem a little harsh. Uh, my, my, I have a whole chapter dedicated to. And that's because most of my friends are pastors, and they complain a lot to me, and I'm a safe place. I would tell pastors to stop doing everything yourself. The majority of pastors either do everything, or they have a click of three people that they ask to do everything. And you know what? When you're a pastor, a lot of pastors have trust issues. You know, you're ministering to people and discipling people, and then they leave. And and that is that is just part of ministry, right? People move to another place or they leave your church or they go somewhere else. And so, you know, pastors can tend to put a wall up and say, I'm going to trust these three people because they're loyal. But then those three people and the pastor are burnt out. In the book, I talk about how people will come to church. They'll share the gospel with their neighbor, and then they'll come and introduce them to their pastor and say, all right, my job is done. And I say, that's a great way to get your pastor to quit or start drinking, right? And so because the pastor can't disciple everyone themselves. And so the first step I have for pastors is you got to stop doing everything. You've got to empower more people. You've got to my pastor, one of the things he did, he had our leadership, uh, group go through a book called The Vine and the trellis before he bullied me into writing my book, um, and had us identify, like, some of us are trellis builders, some of us are more into structure and frameworks and building the, the, the, the framework. And some of us are vine workers, right? Some of us are just we can talk and listen and spend time and we're extroverted, but we both need each other, right? The vine has to hang on the trellis so that when 25 people come to church as a result of sister so-and-so sharing the gospel at the grocery store, they have somewhere to go. There's a trellis, like there's a place for you and a place for you and a place for you. And so training, training people, empowering your people, taking risks. Asking people who are new to discipleship after you've trained them, hey, could you lead the prayer service? Hey, could you organize something? Hey, there's a woman who called me who's grieving a loss. She just lost a loved one. Could you call her and pray with her? I know you know how to pray. And I would do it because I feel like I would do it right. And, you know, some of us, we have those control issues. A lot of pastors have control issues. But you know what? I could actually go take my kid to baseball practice if you call her. Or I could take a nap that I need. Or I could do some or I, you know, or I could do something else. And so I keep it very simple for the pastors. Empower people, take risks. Remember that you are not the Holy Spirit. This all doesn't. You know, one of the things we say at our church is this is God's church. These are God's people, right? They are not our people. This is not our church. And the more we recognize this isn't me, this is, um, what is the man's name? Howard A. Snyder. He wrote a book called The Community of the King. I love this book. He says the more we recognize that we are the work of God, the easier it is to do the work of God. The more we recognize that we, not just me, but all of us, are a part of the interconnected, interdependent body of Christ birthed by Jesus. The easier it is for us to let other people do the work. Because we're all connected to the vine, we're all connected. If we're branches connected to the vine, we're we're all connected to the vine, but then we're all connected to each other, right?

Dwight: Yolanda, thank you so much for this wisdom. That sounds doable. You know, it doesn't sound too intimidating.

Yolanda: Praise God.

Dwight: Which is gets us back to, I think, some of the beautiful simplicity of what we see in the Gospels and how Jesus did his ministry with people. And I think that's where the church needs to, to, to to turn in this, in this moment. So thank you so much for, for writing this book and for being with us on the Pivot podcast today.

Yolanda: Well, thank you for having me. And honestly, the Gospels is my that's my sweet spot. I stay there. Most of my discipleship classes are in the Gospels, because I really do believe that. It's like, have you ever you guys ever had a friend like you have a friend group, right? And then you meet a person and you're like, oh my God, you would love my friends, and you're trying to bring a person into your already established friend group. And this doesn't always work out well, but sometimes it does. And that is how I see discipleship. Like we, we have been invited into this beautiful community of divinity. Right. It's this Holy Ghost friend group, right, of the Trinity. And we want to invite other people into this friend group that we've been invited in and convince them, like, you're going to love them. You're going to love these guys. Right? And so, yeah, I try to keep it simple, Dwight. Yeah.

Dwight: Amen. That's beautiful. Well, and to our audience, thank you so much for joining us today. And remember to check out Yolanda's new book, Discipleship as Holy Collaboration, to help spread the word about pivot. Please like and subscribe. If you're catching us on YouTube or if you're listening, head to Apple Podcasts and leave a review if it really helps. Finally, the best compliment you can give us is to share Pivot with a friend. Until next time. This is Dwight Zscheile and Alicia Granholm signing off. See you next week.

Faith+Lead: The Pivot podcast is a production of Luther Seminary's Faith lead. Faith lead is an ecosystem of theological resources and training designed to equip Christian disciples and leaders to follow God into a faithful future. Learn more at Faithlead.org.