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How we can go from Pain to Power as a man with Yaron Engler
Episode 2829th February 2024 • Mindset, Mood & Movement • Sal Jefferies
00:00:00 00:48:36

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This episode I discuss the concept of moving from pain to power, particularly in the context of men's personal growth and development. Yaron shares his framework called "CROP" (Cleansing, Reconnecting, Observing, Peace/Play/Potential) as a way to help men navigate this journey. The conversation covers topics such as defining pain and power, the role of shame, embodiment, and the importance of self-awareness and presence. I share my experiences personally and professionally with working with men.

My hope is if you're a man is having a difficult time, this will give you some insight some tools to work with.

Key Insights/Learnings:

1. Pain can be a teacher or a source of suffering, while power is associated with freedom and presence.

2. Shame cannot survive being spoken – sharing and being witnessed can release the power of shame.

3. Leaning into pain and discomfort, rather than avoiding them, is crucial for personal growth.

4. Cultivating self-awareness through practices like body scans and observing one's thoughts and actions can lead to more freedom and power.

5. The "CROP" framework provides a cyclical approach to cleansing, reconnecting with one's authentic self, observing life with greater awareness, and living with peace, play, and potential.

6. Personal growth often involves letting go of old identities and beliefs, which can be challenging for those around us.

7. True change is an ongoing process, not a one-time achievement – it's about embracing the journey, not just the destination.

Show Notes:

0:00 - Introduction

1:00 - Defining pain and power

7:00 - Yaron's personal journey with pain and finding healthy role models

12:00 - The power of leaning into pain and discomfort

17:00 - The role of shame and the importance of speaking it

22:00 - Embodiment and using the body as a guide

27:00 - Strategies for developing self-awareness and presence

33:00 - Cultivating freedom and disconnecting from old identities

38:00 - The "CROP" framework (Cleansing, Reconnecting, Observing, Peace/Play/Potential)

43:00 - Preparing loved ones for personal growth and change

47:00 - Final thoughts: living life vs. thinking about lifeYaron's BIO

Yaron Engler, an inspiring force for positive change, brings a playful and honest approach to his coaching. With over 25 years of experience as an educator, coach, husband, father, and world-class musician, he draws from a diverse background, including featured talk at TEDxJaffa.

Yaron, the Founder of On Being Men, supports driven individuals through deep conversations and challenging practices, focusing on honest communication and purpose alignment for healthy relationships, clarity, confidence, and freedom.

Despite challenges, including battling depression and overcoming societal expectations about his passion for drumming, Yaron's journey led him to develop the CROP Cycle, a simple framework for men's growth in relationships, purpose, and freedom.

A gift for our listeners: 

Download BOUNDARIES IN ACTION: Men’s Guide to Inner Freedom in 5 Essential Steps and gain more freedom, connection, and fulfilment. - 

Get in touch with Yaron below:

Website: https://onbeingmen.com/

90-day training program

THE MAN YOU WANT TO BE 

In-person workshop for men in Sussex - April 2024 : YOUR CORE QUEST 

YouTube channel: 

Instagram

Linkedin Yaron:  

Mentions: Brene Brown's website.

Brene's TED talk - The Power of Vulnerability

Brene's TED talk - Listening to Shame

Get in touch with Sal

If this episode has caught your attention and you wish to learn more, then please contact me. I offer a free 20 min call where we can discuss a challenge your facing and how I may be able to help you.

Transcripts

Sal:

and welcome.

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I am delighted to be

joined by my guest Yaron.

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Yaron Engler is joining me today.

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He's the founder of Ambient Men

and he's a specialist with working

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with men in a whole host of fields.

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But I'm going to let Yaron go

deeper and explain that fully

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when we get into conversation.

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And our conversation point

today is to talk about how

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we can go from pain to power.

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So that's quite a, quite an interesting

trajectory and I'm really Excited

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to talk to Yaron about his work with

men and how he's taken them on that.

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Plus I have some

interesting points on that.

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So we're going to jump straight in.

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So first of all, Yaron, welcome.

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Really

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good to have

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you,

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Yaron Engler: Thank you, my friend.

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It's really great to be

here, and I look forward

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to see what we're going to explore.

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Sal: me too.

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So let's, let's really get clear when

we're talking about pain and power.

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Again, they're words

that can take us places.

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What's your definition

of, of pain and power?

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Yaron Engler: First of all, I really

like the fact that you're starting

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the conversation with, with clarifying

definitions, because I think a lot of

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times we talk about things and we don't

really know what we're talking about,

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so it would be great to experience that.

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I haven't thought about it

before, so I'm going to share my

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spontaneous, in the moment answer.

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Pain for me That's a really

interesting question.

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Pain for me is a burden that can be

either a teacher or a source of suffering.

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I like that.

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I didn't know it before.

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Power for me...

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Power for me is freedom.

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Sal: Perfect.

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Really, really, really eloquent.

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And as we say, it's so, for me, it's

so important to get clear on what do we

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mean by a phrase or a term, because it

could mean something different for me as

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it does to you and to, to anyone else.

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So it's so important to, to get clear.

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So for me, pain, pain is something

which is highly sensitive.

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I'm sensicurity.

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Um, it hurts.

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I found it interesting hearing

what you said about it being

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a teacher and I you're right.

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It can also be a, uh, for me

it can be a suppressor as well.

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It can become, it pushes me down.

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So it's a, it's a powerful force.

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I guess it's how that force is going.

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Is it pushing us down or pushing

us forwards is something that I'm

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interested in, in, in going into.

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And power.

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Well, power is an

interesting word in my term.

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Power sometimes makes me think of

energy and drive and moving forwards.

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And other times it can

feel a bit dominating.

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So a little like a shadow and

light, there's sort of perhaps

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different aspects of power.

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Again, it feels to me.

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How is it applied?

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You know, what's the force behind

the there would be my interpretation.

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So um, So we've kind of got some idea

of where we're talking about now.

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So perhaps we'll start,

let's take We're men.

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Um, being a man in 2023 unusual thing.

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Certainly I'm, I'm over

mid, uh, mid century now.

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I've been around for, on

this planet a long time.

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And it's a funny old thing being a man.

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Because when I grew up, I was...

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Given all these messages, not explicitly

in a handbook, but you know, by my

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parent, my dad, and culture, and

those messages don't fit today.

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That's what I find.

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They don't fit today.

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Some of them do, but

then some of them don't.

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And I've had to do a lot of self work

to question would be, certainly to

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you personally, how have you adapted

yourself as a man of the, of the world

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from being a young boy when, when

you grew up to the man you are today?

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How have you

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Yaron Engler: That's a good question.

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it's interesting that it comes, but

I think Payne was an amazing guide.

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At the beginning, something put to push

away, and to try to avoid as much as I can

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until I understood in my early twenties,

I understood that, as I said before,

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pain can be an amazing teacher and, and,

and, and a door to a lot of wisdom and a

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lot of freedom, which again, as I said,

power, power is an interesting word.

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And I'm sure we're going

to touch that more.

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I didn't have positive role

models as a man, as a child.

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I'm, I'm, I don't think so.

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I saw what I saw.

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I had an inner truth that there was

something better than that, but it's

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hard to really apply that when we,

when I didn't see external examples,

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but there was something, you know,

I suffered from depression from

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being a teenage, for many years.

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And in my case, it was also physical.

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So I would get stuck with my neck

or with my back for two, three days.

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I could not move.

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And it happened every two, three months.

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I would get stuck like that.

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And in my mid twenties, through

a brother of a friend who later

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on became my girlfriend, he

introduced me to Greenberg method.

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I don't know if you heard

about Greenberg method.

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But Greenberg method, is a form...

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they do the analysis through your feet

and then they start to work on the body.

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And it's all about connection

between body, mind, spirit.

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It's, you learn how through

breath and work with your muscles,

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you can really release pain.

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And it's incredible since I did that,

work, I really learned how to release

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pains and find more freedom in me.

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So that was part of the release.

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of negativity that I had, but then

also, I think another very important

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milestone for me, apart from acknowledging

that pain is a I think in my case,

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I didn't really have healthy role

models as, as a man, as a child.

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And, I always wanted to find them.

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And it wasn't easy.

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So there are two layers for the

answer that I'm going to give you.

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One is, I think the thing that

really helped me is to find, role

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healthy role models more or less 10

years ago, actually, when I heard

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about this concept of men's work,

which is what drove me into that.

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Because I suddenly saw men that

had this very strong capacity to.

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being what I would call the masculine

traits, you know, very direct, strong

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with business, strong with strategy and,

you know, all these kinds of traits.

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But at the same time, they had

very easy access to compassion,

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to love, to, to self awareness.

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And I really liked that overall.

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spectrum that I saw from a man,

because for me, it was used to be

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either the macho guy or the kind of

the losery guy or something like this.

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So that's one thing.

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The other thing that is in a way

contradicts the idea of being a

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man is I suffered from depression

for many, many years in my life.

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And after, you know, it started

when I was a teenager and.

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In 2010, I learned once and for all

to let go of my depressions and that

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happened through a deep spiritual path

that I took, which helped me see the,

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disconnection from identity and that

everything that we add to the story

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that we, you know, we live in a story.

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Our life is a story.

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But it's completely imagination.

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So I can say many things about

myself, I am a man, I am a

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father, I am I am whatever.

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But it doesn't really mean anything from

that space of depth of spirituality.

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So in a way, disconnecting from

the idea of a man as well helped

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me become the man that I am

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right now.

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So there is a contradiction there.

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Sal: I love that.

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A contradiction I would probably also

a paradox, which is of course a, uh,

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holding two, two opposites at the same

time, which feels like there's a lot of

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that in the world, but we don't see it.

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Our brain slash mind is very much built

on binary, certainly in our Western

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culture, we're very much binary thinking.

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It's either this or that.

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You're a man or you're a woman.

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You're a tough guy or you're a pussy.

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Whatever these binary terms are.

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But that's not actually true in my

experience of life, certainly in

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my personal and my professional.

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And I'm really curious that you

said there, but that unhooking of

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identity, that's such an interesting

one because identity, you know,

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it's, we, we defend it, don't we?

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We're like, I am whatever,

I'm this, I'm that.

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And if someone says that

you're not, it's very hurtful.

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And yet.

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It's really interesting if we challenge

that assumption, that, that construct,

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that story we've either told ourselves or

somehow, you know, like, like clothing,

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just managed to put all these clothes on

and like, Oh, I felt this is who I am.

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Can I, I'd love to go, because the

word spiritual again can take us

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off into different terminology.

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What's your interpretation of spiritual?

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So we can understand how you

perhaps got to, to, to that

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Yaron Engler: You have

really good questions.

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You know, you asked me to define

things that I use on a daily

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basis, yet I never really defined.

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So what is spirituality?

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I think my interpretation of spirituality

would be an inquiry for truth.

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Like, you know, instead of protecting

my identity, I prefer to spend my

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time to feel what is true to me,

because when I find what is true to

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me and I can apply it, I feel free.

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And if I said before, freedom is power.

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When I try to protect my identity, I

am getting lost in ego, in a lot of

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things that I found really damaging,

to be honest, to my life experience.

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So, for me, the spirituality...

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is a beautiful inquiry again,

yeah, to, to find some freedom

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and peace and

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quiet.

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Sal: Wow, That's really That's

such a powerful way interpretation.

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I'm really touched by that.

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Um, I kind of want to speak to

my interpretation of spiritual as

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well, because when I was younger, I

thought it was all about a religion.

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Then I just realized that

religion was a particular thing.

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And I was lucky enough to be involved

in, Dwighter Vedanta, which is the, uh,

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ancient Sanskrit practice of non duality.

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And I got involved in that many years ago.

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And it did a similar thing to try and

inquire what is truth and, and to go

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beyond the assumptions that we all have.

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And in many ways we can't

live without assumptions.

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Otherwise it'd be a very confusing world.

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But to believe the assumptions are

true, perhaps is dangerous or limiting.

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And I'm always fascinated to hear when

we, we challenge something or question

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and say, Yeah, but is that really true?

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Or perhaps is it really true

in my experience can open us up

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because if someone's in pain and

wants to change, it feels like

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there needs to be some movement.

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There needs to be some movement either

with the pain or out of the pain.

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But if there's no movement, it's

you know, you're stuck in that

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that and it's not a nice place.

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So when we think about moving out of

pain, what other powerful ways are you

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working either on yourself or with the

guys that you work with to help that

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trajectory, that moving out of pain?

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So using it as a doorway,

as you said, what

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Yaron Engler: It's, it's interesting,

it's to do the complete opposite.

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It's, instead of moving out of

pain, it's to lean into the pain.

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I think most of the sources of

our problems in life is by the

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fact that we are avoiding things.

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A question that I would ask the

people that I work with, the same as

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I ask myself, is what am I avoiding?

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And the thing that I'm avoiding,

that's what I would say, okay.

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It's time to lean into that, because if

I'm avoiding a tough conversation with my

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wife because we have tension between us,

I can continue to avoid it and avoid it.

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The relationship is going to get more

tangled and more tangled and more

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tangled, and we see the outcome of so

many divorces, so many, separations,

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so many toxic relationships, so many.

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The commonality of talking about, the

wife or the husband that I, Oh yeah, kind

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of talking behind the back as if it's a

burden instead of something that it should

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be like, wow, I really love my wife.

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I really am connected.

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So if, if I'm avoiding to have

the tough conversation, I'm

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just leading to more pain.

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If instead of avoiding that pain,

I'm leaning in and I'm having,

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Hey, something isn't working here.

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And my voice can be a little bit,

you know, trembling and whatever,

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and I can be shaky, whatever the

trauma is, but I'm leaning in and

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through that I can release the pain.

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Same thing with work.

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There is this phone call, or that

email, or this conversation that you

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are avoiding, and that creates you to

feel more lost, and more disengaged,

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and more pissed off, and more resentful.

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If instead, like, no, I'm going to lean

in and I'm going to make that phone call

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and I'm going to allow myself to face

that person, whatever, and, and, and in

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the work that I do with men, it's a lot

about how to embody the traits that you

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want to have in those conversations.

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So it goes deeper than that, but it's

always, instead of going out of pain,

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I'm inviting people to go in now.

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It's not a surprise that

there are not a lot of.

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Men that are willing to go there.

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you know, there is a lot of stuff that

invites us to kind of go around it

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and play, you know, around the bushes.

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This is not my approach because

I didn't find it useful.

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I found it very, very useful to lean

in and deal with stuff for real.

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At the same time of doing that

spiritual practice where you start to

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really get to know, and I'll choose

my word carefully, what you are, not

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who you are, the who is again, that

identity, but to understand what I am.

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and move my life from there.

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This is how I deal with pain.

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I found it super

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Sal: It really is profound.

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It's, it's work.

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I've had to get involved in myself.

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I've trained as a psychotherapist,

so psychotherapy is a, is a,

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generally a going to the darker

places in a, with a person.

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I, I've moved slightly on from

the psychotherapeutic model now

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to a more of a coaching model, but

I've two done years of therapy and

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looking at the pain and, and pain's.

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An interesting thing, I, I'm, I'm

fascinated in neuropsychology,

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like how the, the physical system

of our mind body works as well.

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And pain is a very.

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Acute signal.

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That's what it is really.

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If we talk about, you know, how the body's

responding, it's a very acute signal.

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We, we have nociceptors

in our, in our body.

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So they are actually, they're

often called, pain receptors,

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but I heard someone recently

described them as threat receptors.

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And I thought it was quite interesting

about these parts of our body, which are

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saying, Hey, there's a threat, whether

it's, you could burn your arm on a hot

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stove or you could bang your hand on

a solid wall or something like that.

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But when we think of pain, if

it's a signal, It's a sign.

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Signal and sign are the same thing.

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So what is the sign telling us?

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And that's what I'm hearing you're,

you're, you're helping people figure out.

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So what is that sign?

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And it's interesting because we often

have a reaction to pain, which is quite...

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well, it's neurological, right?

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You know, if you, if you, the classic

in your kid, you burn your hand on

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the stove, you pull your hand away.

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It happens before thinking.

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I think it happens in the

20th, 20th of a second.

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It's a really quick time, but it's before

the thinking brain comes online and

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says, that's, that's not good for us.

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So I do question and I wonder if our

response to, say, emotional pain, say,

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a difficult conversation with partner

or someone at work, if we're having

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the same, almost like the amygdala part

of the brain, the old brain saying,

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like, alert, stay away, we need to

get the front part, the, the present

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part online to say, what's the signal?

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What is that?

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Rather than just let's move away from it.

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Because if we keep moving away

from pain, we're being hunted,

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we're being chased by the pain.

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And I think that's a really interesting

point that I'd love your thoughts on.

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Yaron Engler: Yeah, it's, I

really like what you just said.

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And for me, what I'm

noticing, let's take fire.

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You know, if I put my hand into

a fire, I immediately go away

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because it's, it hurts physically.

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But we also have the understanding

that fire is great for us, and we

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use it for many, many different ways.

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So there is the differentiation there

between, okay, it can cause pain.

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But there are more benefits for some

reason, and especially with men, because

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of stigma, because of society, because

of social norms, because whatever it

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is, because of, again, not so great role

models, male role models, when it comes

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to emotional pain, because it's also a

little bit less tangible, you don't really

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see it, we don't see it, when we get the

burn, we run away and we don't go back

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anymore, because we're not really given

the tools to deal with emotional pain,

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especially as men, you know, the, the

usual, cliches of, you know, don't be a

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pussy, man up, all these kinds of things.

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And I always say that because it is

important also, we are being taught in

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school, you know, what happened in 1827,

how to calculate angles of triangle, never

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use this kind of stuff in life, you know,

it would be more useful if they teach us

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how to put a shelf straight on the wall,

how to create saving accounts and how to

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be more emotionally capable to handle the

challenges in life, because in the end of

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the day, this is what we are all craving.

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We are craving to love and be loved,

yet wherever I look around me, most

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people are guided by fear, not by love.

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And for me, this is another great question

that I ask myself on a regular basis.

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Am I acting from fear or

am I acting from love?

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And when it comes to pain, I can choose.

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Am I acting from fear or

am I acting from love?

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The choice is extremely obvious for me.

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Yet.

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The choice that the majority of us take

is, is acting from fear, which caused more

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fear, which is called more pain, which

is caused more fear, which is caused.

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It's a chain.

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So, yeah.

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Sal: For those who follow my

podcast and like my little snippets

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of neurosciences, there's a...

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There's three levels to the brain,

not literally, but this is an old

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piece of idea called the triune brain.

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:

There's the very old part, which

is, they call it the lizard brain.

334

:

So it's the bit that runs a

heart rate, blood pressure,

335

:

lungs, breathing, responses.

336

:

Then the mammal brain, which is

the emotional center of the limbic

337

:

brain, and then the neocortex.

338

:

I'm just going very quickly because

we can get caught up in neuroscience.

339

:

But what we forget as human

systems with our iPhones and our

340

:

businesses and our cultures is

that we're still animals at heart.

341

:

We're still, we've got all those

primary systems and the primary systems

342

:

are called primary for a reason.

343

:

Not only were they first, they act first.

344

:

And I think it takes some from

really self aware as you said

345

:

about being spiritual, being really

questioning about how am I reacting?

346

:

Who is reacting here as well,

is another question I ask.

347

:

Is it me?

348

:

Is it my dad?

349

:

Is it an idea of a bloke

that I think I should be?

350

:

If we don't stop and question,

we are in a state of reaction.

351

:

If we do stop and question, and of

course use our breath, and like,

352

:

literally breathe for a little bit, like,

let's get part of that mind or brain

353

:

online to say, Where am I coming from?

354

:

Love, fear, who's responding now, then

we don't get out of that cycle of pain.

355

:

Do you know another thing that

strikes me, Yaron, is that I

356

:

remember when I was a kid, I was,

I've always been highly sensitive.

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:

Now that used to be it,

ribs, like sensitive.

358

:

Now I realize it's a skill set.

359

:

It's like having 4D technology.

360

:

I'm aware of everything, but it

can be overwhelming sometimes.

361

:

But when you're super sensitive,

like you feel a lot, like literally,

362

:

I mean, I feel a lot physically

and mentally, emotionally.

363

:

It's can be overwhelming,

but it can also be revealing.

364

:

And if you show, and my experience

of being a boy when I grew up in the

365

:

seventies of showing, if you showed stuff,

which was anything other than what the

366

:

social construct was, rather than be

tough, and it wasn't tough, there is this.

367

:

I know I got laughed at.

368

:

I can remember peers being

laughed at for stuff.

369

:

And there's that quality

of shaming that can go on.

370

:

Whether kids know this or whether

people know this, there's something

371

:

wrong with you because you've

expressed an emotion, a feeling.

372

:

And shame's something I've had

to do loads of work on myself.

373

:

I continue to do work on it.

374

:

I talk about it a lot with people,

certainly the men I work with.

375

:

I'd like to get your insights

on shame because it's this...

376

:

Sneaky, powerful, kind of damaging energy

or emotion, whatever we want to call it.

377

:

And it really, for me, has stopped me so

many times in my life until I faced it.

378

:

Like you were saying, face your pain.

379

:

What would you, perhaps you could

share more on your thoughts about

380

:

shame and how that works with something

with men and moving from pain.

381

:

Yaron Engler: It's really interesting that

you're asking that because we literally

382

:

just this on Tuesday we did a session with

one of the groups around shame, and it's

383

:

a very challenging session, but beautiful

because again, it's leaning in and on the

384

:

other side, guys suddenly feel like, ah,

I'm free from this thing that I've been

385

:

holding with me inside me that nobody

knew for 20 years, suddenly like it.

386

:

doesn't matter anymore.

387

:

And it's, and there are two

things I would like to mention.

388

:

first of all, it's important to

differentiate between shame and guilt.

389

:

because they're, they're similar.

390

:

And I think a lot of times we mix them.

391

:

Shame is more connected to kind of an

understanding, feeling that something

392

:

is wrong with me as a being, you know,

something was the way I was built

393

:

is wrong, it's kind of very, very,

ingrained in the sense of beings.

394

:

I am, something isn't right about me.

395

:

Guilt is very similar, but it's more

about an act, some action that I.

396

:

did.

397

:

So with guilt, it's easier to, there

is someone that you can, again,

398

:

lean in and have a conversation,

apologize, clean the thing.

399

:

With shame, it's more about

your relationship with yourself.

400

:

And then you probably know Brene Brown.

401

:

She has a sentence, which

I think is just bang on.

402

:

And it says, shame cannot

survive being spoken.

403

:

I have seen this so many times that when

we allow ourselves to speak our shame in

404

:

a safe space where we can just share this

thing, and it's amazing with the groups of

405

:

men because a lot of times I see men that

literally held this really dark, horrible,

406

:

painful, suffer causing thing in their

being for literally 5, 10, 20 more years,

407

:

speak it out, And And the funny thing

that happens, first of all, feel free.

408

:

There is a little bit of like, oh,

shit, this is like, a bit scary.

409

:

But, but then once it's done, they feel

free, but also this, this realization that

410

:

they suddenly see, they will see in the,

in the space, three, four, five other men

411

:

saying me too, and then you understand

that this dark thought that you had about

412

:

yourself, that you are ugly, that you're

stupid, that you're not good enough,

413

:

that you're whatever it is that the

is, it's like, oh, shit, I'm not alone.

414

:

And it's actually just common.

415

:

And so on.

416

:

And I think it's really important because

so many of us, and I used to be there, I'm

417

:

no longer in that space because I've done

a lot of work on myself, but if you are

418

:

someone listening to this and you judge

your, the way you think, the way you feel

419

:

as something is wrong with you, trust me,

if somebody would put a mic on anybody's

420

:

thoughts, we would all be either in

prison or in a mental asylum, all of us.

421

:

So everything is okay.

422

:

and again, take this.

423

:

Shame cannot survive being spoken.

424

:

That's a great tool that I believe

425

:

Sal: absolutely Beautiful, Yes.

426

:

I know Brennan Brown's work.

427

:

I've used it.

428

:

I've cited it.

429

:

And it's, it's powerful for,

we'll, we'll put a link in the

430

:

show notes for, for listeners.

431

:

if you don't already know Brenny

Brown and it's so powerful, what you

432

:

said there, and it's something I've

experienced and clearly you're, you're

433

:

working with him naming it saying,

Hey, I feel like this, I feel whatever

434

:

that is, it releases the power.

435

:

It's, it's like, it dispels

its, magic charge, doesn't it?

436

:

For me, it's like, once you've spoken it,

particularly if you've been witnessed.

437

:

And someone who's just like, yeah, okay.

438

:

Yeah, me too.

439

:

And that's, oh, that's okay.

440

:

And the witnessing and the speaking

is a really powerful thing.

441

:

Is that something you've experienced?

442

:

Yaron Engler: No, but I just had like a

really interesting, you know, it's the

443

:

thing about like a water that is getting

stuck and you have the hole there and

444

:

you see that something is stuck and

it's like, I don't want to touch it.

445

:

I don't want to touch it.

446

:

I don't want, but if you just

go and touch it and you move

447

:

it, the water starts to flow.

448

:

It's, and I love what you said

because the image came very strong

449

:

for me that it's just that we need

to, again, it's about leaning.

450

:

Sal: me, there's something,

and I want to speak around the

451

:

body of this and embodiment.

452

:

So I, I do a lot of my regular,

as you'll know, for new people.

453

:

so I work with the mind, I work with

emotions and I work with the body.

454

:

I'm so interested in how

we use physical movement.

455

:

in an intelligent way.

456

:

And I don't just mean to grow big muscles

and be cardiovascularly efficient,

457

:

even though that's really good.

458

:

If our body is functioning and moving

well, it's a processing system.

459

:

It processes trauma.

460

:

It creates all sorts of things

that work our brain, and hence

461

:

our mind is in a different state.

462

:

And all experiences

embodied to some degree.

463

:

I had a, share something personal.

464

:

I had a treatment done

recently, a fascia treatment.

465

:

So those who don't know, if you

have a certain deep tissue massage,

466

:

fascia is the connective tissue.

467

:

And there's some deep work going in there.

468

:

And my, my, my guy did a bit of work on

an old scar, 30 year old scar in the body.

469

:

I thought it was fine, you know, I've

been, I've had a lot of work done and

470

:

he did some work on it and the next,

through the night and the next day,

471

:

oh, the anger and the fury and then

the fear, literally, I was as if I was

472

:

drunk and I hadn't drunk any alcohol,

it was as if I was drunk and I said to

473

:

my partner, like, you know, just give

me space, I need space, it's something

474

:

that's got triggered and released, it's

coming up and it went, literally, it was

475

:

24 hours and it just sort of faded away.

476

:

So there's so much in our body and we

want to get closer to our body as well.

477

:

The embodiment, the physicality.

478

:

What are you doing, Yaron, that

brings men into their bodies and,

479

:

and does any form of bodywork?

480

:

I'm curious to what you

might use in your practice.

481

:

Yaron Engler: Oh, there's a lot.

482

:

As you know, I'm sure that

you have many, many practices.

483

:

I think.

484

:

You know, I won't go into all of it

because it's, it's useless, but I think

485

:

as a first step is, it's just to, it

comes back to what we spoke about before.

486

:

It's to build awareness.

487

:

So again, just as a simple form, we are

so busy as man, especially in our, we

488

:

are in our heads thinking constantly.

489

:

And it's about allowing myself

to, okay, there is thinking, but

490

:

what is going on with my body?

491

:

And really to start developing

the awareness of sensations in the

492

:

body that we don't even notice.

493

:

So something that I really

like to do, and I do it very

494

:

often, is kind of a body scan.

495

:

It's a form of simple meditation.

496

:

You draw people into breathing

a little bit, and then I tell

497

:

them like, Notice where you carry

tension in your body right now.

498

:

And for example, I am now, as I

speak to you, I'm noticing that

499

:

I have Some tension in my throat,

which is a common place for me.

500

:

It's a chakra that I haven't yet

released and still work in progress.

501

:

But by noticing it, then I can start

to change my breath or to change

502

:

my posture a little bit or not.

503

:

Just acknowledge, Oh, here's a teacher.

504

:

There's a teacher here that told me that I

am holding tension in one part of my body.

505

:

What does that mean?

506

:

And then to spend some time with it.

507

:

And it's, it's to start using the body

as a guide that if there is tension,

508

:

I can slowly release the tension.

509

:

And if I start to release the tension in

my body, I will release more potential

510

:

for thinking, for relaxing, and so on.

511

:

A lot of people don't notice

that they have headaches.

512

:

All the time, that they have

pain in the neck all the time.

513

:

And, and then we're surprised that we are

constantly angry, frustrated, ta, ta, ta.

514

:

And that's the thing.

515

:

Okay.

516

:

So pay attention to the body

and start releasing that.

517

:

And you'll see that again, the impact

will be on all the other ingredients

518

:

that you're more interested in your

level of clarity, confidence, and so on.

519

:

Sal: Yeah, it

520

:

did.

521

:

Um, I've done body scans and if

you, if, if, if our listeners

522

:

haven't done it, it's really a case

of going to any part of the body.

523

:

A lot of us start from the feet

up and you spend time noticing.

524

:

Now I'm fascinated.

525

:

I have a lot of kinesthetic awareness.

526

:

It's perhaps a natural intelligence

I was given and I've done huge

527

:

amounts of physical training and

I'm very connected to my body.

528

:

I've worked with people who've

been traumatized for different

529

:

reasons, different, situations,

and they've had a really difficult

530

:

time connecting with their body.

531

:

So for some of us connecting

with our body is difficult.

532

:

So I would say wherever we are

at, start with the most obvious,

533

:

and I almost guarantee you can

connect with your fingertips.

534

:

So here you need to be

touching your fingertips.

535

:

There's reasons for this.

536

:

There's more neurons in your nerve cells,

in your fingertips, your lips and your

537

:

tongue than anywhere else in your body.

538

:

So if, if that's the least you do,

rubbing your fingertips will give you a

539

:

feel of what's going on just physically.

540

:

And it starts at the subtle.

541

:

And some of the guys I've worked

with, we go gross, like the big stuff.

542

:

So if you carry a heavy weight

or let's say do a heavy deadlift,

543

:

you really have to pay attention

to your body to do the exercise

544

:

because it's so overt and demanding.

545

:

And it can start there.

546

:

It can start there for guys.

547

:

I found that's a really powerful way.

548

:

Go heavy, go intense and go there.

549

:

And then if you're luckier, you

might be able to go towards the

550

:

yoga practice where you spend time

and it's really, really subtle.

551

:

But it's start where you

have some connection will

552

:

be my, my, my work on that.

553

:

I will start with where we can find

connection and then we expand from there.

554

:

What, what, what's your thoughts on that?

555

:

Yaron Engler: I think

the gym example is great.

556

:

And that's a great space for men,

actually, to start building that

557

:

awareness and to literally work on

it in a way that they can notice.

558

:

So I have seen so many times in

gyms, trying to lift a weight, we are

559

:

closing, squeezing, and that's the

complete opposite of what we should do.

560

:

So the invitation for men, if you

are someone who goes and does weight.

561

:

Next time you lift, instead of tensioning

and tensing everything, try to release

562

:

and to take a deep breath in and as

you exhale and you lift the weight,

563

:

relax your body instead of creating

tension, it's contradictive, but doing

564

:

the gym actually is a perfect exercise.

565

:

Thank you.

566

:

Place.

567

:

You know, I'm still waiting for

the gym that instead of putting

568

:

also this kind of music that takes

you all kind of out of yourself.

569

:

What if we do gyms that have more relaxed

music that invite you to slow things down

570

:

and to lift those weight from a place of

relaxation instead of place of forcing.

571

:

We are forcing too much in our lives

instead of creating from just a more

572

:

relaxed and free

573

:

Sal: Forgive me, I'm chuckling in

the background as you're on speaker.

574

:

I go to a popular gym, it's a really

great gym, I won't name it but...

575

:

Sometimes I see some guys there doing

the face and the face is squeezed,

576

:

the eyes, the jaws, like crazy.

577

:

And I could almost guarantee they

need to go triple on that weight.

578

:

Because I've been made to do

it by some of my trainers.

579

:

They'll just go, no go double.

580

:

You're like, What?!

581

:

That's when you really would pull

that face because it is beyond

582

:

almost the edge of possibility.

583

:

What is interesting about your thing,

and it's both funny and also concerning,

584

:

is we need to help, I think when we're

moving, whether it's weight, whether it's

585

:

yoga, or whether it's walking down the

road, we have tension and we can be tense.

586

:

And they are very different phenomena,

so physically and emotionally.

587

:

You can be tense, which is

tight, which is resistant, which

588

:

is a freeze state, which is...

589

:

It's kind of tantamount to moving

towards a trauma type, experience.

590

:

It's also perhaps a depressed

state, it's lockdown.

591

:

Whereas tension is the right amount

of force that your body might need

592

:

to walk, or to lift, or to carry.

593

:

If we misunderstand the two and get

binary, we go, we're tense or we're soggy.

594

:

We're in problems.

595

:

So the right amount of tension, and I

had very fortunate experience in yoga.

596

:

I did a lot of yoga for years, became

a yoga teacher and learned about

597

:

tensional forces and, biotensegrity

is one of the terms of the, the

598

:

tensional integrity of the body.

599

:

The same I see with the mind you're on.

600

:

This is such an interesting thing

that people have tension in the mind.

601

:

It's like, okay, I need to focus

on something or they're tense.

602

:

Like, Oh my God, I've got to do this.

603

:

And I think if we are softer, more with

the feeling, and this is everything

604

:

you're saying, and I love it.

605

:

We're with that feeling, whether

it's a heavy weight or whether

606

:

it's a challenge at work.

607

:

A difficult conversation.

608

:

The right tension, but not tense is

possibly how we're going to navigate that.

609

:

That challenge isn't in front of us.

610

:

Yaron Engler: And just to build on

that, a great, just to connect things

611

:

with what we said before, it's to

observe where you're coming from.

612

:

Are you coming from love or

are you coming from fear?

613

:

What I mean by that is those guys

that you say that are like, Oh,

614

:

like this, what actually guides

them to lift such a big weight?

615

:

It's if we take it down and

we drill down, it is fear.

616

:

I'm not good enough.

617

:

I need to look strong.

618

:

I need to, it's, it's, it's, it's, and

if someone goes to the gym for a place,

619

:

I'm going to take care of my body.

620

:

I'm going to take care of myself.

621

:

I don't care what people think about me.

622

:

I'm going to take this weight,

take a deep breath and lift

623

:

it because I do it for myself.

624

:

That's coming from, from love.

625

:

So all these things, It's, yeah, the tense

and the tension, it's to, again, analyze

626

:

for yourself, where am I coming from?

627

:

And that will help you to guide

yourself to what you said,

628

:

to the, to the positive path

629

:

Sal: yeah, yeah, absolutely.

630

:

It's so interesting.

631

:

I've been there, I've done it where

I've shown up at a gym or training

632

:

session where I've I've tried to prove.

633

:

because my own insecurities, my own

shame has been sneaking up in my mind.

634

:

And I'm like, yeah, I'm going to, I did.

635

:

I'll catch it.

636

:

I'm like, dude, what are you doing?

637

:

No one gives a damn anyway.

638

:

And I moved because of all of

the health markers for health,

639

:

for mental, physical, emotional.

640

:

And I say this to everyone I work with.

641

:

Exercise has got the wrong

concept in our culture.

642

:

Exercise is freedom.

643

:

Exercise should be joy.

644

:

It's vitality.

645

:

Who doesn't want more of that?

646

:

And there are ways to do it.

647

:

But if you come at the gym or whatever

training you're doing, and you're

648

:

trying to prove something, you're

trying to fill a hole of insecurity,

649

:

the weight will never be heavy enough.

650

:

It just won't.

651

:

Yaron Engler: I love that.

652

:

I love that.

653

:

And again, I totally relate to that.

654

:

And I still catch myself.

655

:

It's again, it's a work

in progress forever.

656

:

It's not like I'm, you know, but it's good

to catch ourselves and clean and clear

657

:

because then again, we have more power.

658

:

We have more freedom.

659

:

Sal: let's bring our, this

kind of bring our trajectory.

660

:

So we're, we're really speaking like,

okay, how can we move from pain to power?

661

:

And it feels like we're really

naming the key components about

662

:

seeing it, being with it, and some

of the, the, the ways to start

663

:

understanding where are you coming from?

664

:

So if we move our attention more

towards how do we, we're going

665

:

closer towards power now in.

666

:

in this space.

667

:

We, you defined power earlier

and I'm wondering about power.

668

:

I'm wondering about, I'm trying

to embody this myself, the pain

669

:

I've been through and as place of

power, how can we get more power?

670

:

So perhaps, what are we aiming for?

671

:

What is it?

672

:

You describe freedom.

673

:

I describe movement autonomy, but

what's, what are some of the strategies

674

:

you've been deploying both for your own

experience and the men you're working

675

:

with to start tuning into what is power?

676

:

How do we go towards them?

677

:

Yaron Engler: So for me, as I

said, power for me is freedom.

678

:

And when I say freedom, it's the

freedom from the identity that I'm

679

:

supposed to be something or someone.

680

:

Once I remove that pressure and understand

that I no longer need to live by what

681

:

my parents are expecting from me, what

society expects me, what I should be

682

:

doing, but I'm, I'm investigating more.

683

:

What is it that is driving me?

684

:

Not even what it is that I want, because

that's another, what is it drives me?

685

:

and we can connect this to the word

purpose, which is a big word, you know,

686

:

but I, I do believe that, spending time

to, Let some kind of thing that is a

687

:

drive a why whatever the language again

language is a funny thing But we all know

688

:

that there are things that pull us that

we will do anyway That it's and a lot

689

:

of us because we spend a lot of time in

our head We we forget about this and we

690

:

start to kind of go follow the written

rules and some written rules and and

691

:

and it's miserable so by Disconnecting

from that identity and that need to do

692

:

something because I'm supposed to, and

spending time in really defining who am

693

:

I and what do I want to create, and then

I can create freedom, and then I can,

694

:

through that freedom, I, again, power

is a funny word, as you said, because

695

:

when I think about power, it's like,

all this macho and if people are still

696

:

chasing that, I find it funny, to be

honest, and, so it's not really what I'm

697

:

talking about, because for me, power is

presence, is freedom, um, so again, I

698

:

think the lack of identity, the relaxation

into what is instead of what's supposed

699

:

to be, and yes, and spending some time

in, in feeling into what is my purpose,

700

:

what is it that I'm meant to be

701

:

here?

702

:

Thank you.

703

:

Sal: Power is presence.

704

:

Wow.

705

:

That is a line.

706

:

I'm all about presence because

if you're not, if you don't exude

707

:

presence in life, where are you?

708

:

You're somewhere in the past.

709

:

You're somewhere in the future.

710

:

They're both abstractions in reality.

711

:

If you're not really with what you're

doing, then you don't have presence.

712

:

And power.

713

:

You know, if we think for

a second, What do I want?

714

:

What do I want for life?

715

:

And I don't know many

people that different.

716

:

I don't know, yeah, you might want

this car or that house or this job.

717

:

They're kind of the expressions,

but what do we want?

718

:

We want to feel good.

719

:

We want to feel loved.

720

:

We want to feel safe.

721

:

Whatever those feelings are, they're

all generally positive feeling.

722

:

Most people want the positive stuff.

723

:

And freedom, presence.

724

:

Those are wonderful ways to

express yourself into being.

725

:

And of course, when we think about

freedom or the opposite, being trapped

726

:

or shut down, if you're driven by an

idea or the past or a construct of what

727

:

a man should be, what you should be,

You need to get free of that because

728

:

otherwise it's, it's, it's, it's a

box and I'm really fascinated to, to

729

:

sort of talk a bit more about freedom.

730

:

It's a value that I hold dear.

731

:

Freedom is something which, for

me, I'm just going to caveat this.

732

:

It's not about sitting on

the sofa doing nothing.

733

:

It's, it's free to choose, free

to be present, free to learn.

734

:

So it's quite a dynamic thing that

connects to things as opposed to,

735

:

I don't have to go to work today.

736

:

That's just not doing anything.

737

:

So my term of freedom is, is

having volition and energy

738

:

to go towards and learn.

739

:

How Are you helping people uncouple that

old narrative and connect with freedom?

740

:

Do you actually, do you help people

say like, this is your freedom?

741

:

How are you working with some of the

guys you're working with who might have

742

:

strong connections to the past identity

and yet want to move towards power?

743

:

What's some strategies

you're, you're using?

744

:

Yaron Engler: there are many

ways that I can work, with men.

745

:

And I think probably the best way

to describe it is I created a very

746

:

simple framework that really helps

men understand where we are playing.

747

:

So we are using a lot of tools,

but it will all fall into

748

:

that crop framework and crop.

749

:

First of all, we like to talk

about meanings of words here.

750

:

So the meaning of crop,

there are two meanings.

751

:

One is something that we're planting.

752

:

in the ground in order to nourish

ourselves later on, that it will come

753

:

as a crop, which is something that

I feel is a good strategy for life.

754

:

And to be very careful with

what we're planting, of course.

755

:

And the other meaning is, you know, like

in Photoshop, we have a lot of a picture.

756

:

And there's a lot of stuff and we like to

crop the thing that really matters to us.

757

:

The same thing with life.

758

:

You know, we have the mortgage,

the kids, the thing, the work, the

759

:

whatever, the going to the gym.

760

:

There's a lot of noise.

761

:

How can we let go of everything,

all the noise and keep what we,

762

:

what truly, truly matters to us.

763

:

And crop comes from the C R O

P and I'll start from the end.

764

:

What we want in that sense of

freedom that we're talking about

765

:

is, is peace, play and potential.

766

:

We want to play life with our

potential and to really enjoy a

767

:

free life, fun of, where we connect

with people, where we have fun.

768

:

In order to be in that peace

space, we need to move to the O.

769

:

And the O is what we

have been talking about.

770

:

It's to have a much deeper

observation of what's going on.

771

:

How am I acting?

772

:

Why am I thinking like this?

773

:

Why am I speaking like this?

774

:

What is actually going on here?

775

:

And the more self aware I become to what's

going on, the more I can then act in life.

776

:

In order to do that self, that

observation, I need to know who I am.

777

:

And that takes me to the R.

778

:

The R is reconnecting, reconnecting with

who you truly are, not what you've been

779

:

told, not all the stories, all the masks

that we put, but really reconnecting

780

:

with something really, really.

781

:

Deep, that is you.

782

:

And in order to do that comes

the C, which is where the heavy

783

:

lifting of the work is happening.

784

:

That's the cleansing and clearing.

785

:

And that's a lot of unlearning.

786

:

You know, we live in a world where we

constantly need to learn more things,

787

:

and we get more and more information.

788

:

I go in the other way.

789

:

I'm telling you we're going to cleanse

and clear a lot of shit that you've

790

:

accumulated, that it makes you feel that

you're something or someone, but it's

791

:

actually killing you because it's not.

792

:

And so we do a lot of

practices around the clean.

793

:

We spoke about shame.

794

:

We clear the shame.

795

:

We spoke about, we talk about

habits around the information

796

:

that we consume and the food that

we consume and a lot of things.

797

:

And we start to let go naturally.

798

:

Once we start to let go,

it's like a hard disk.

799

:

You know, you take a

hard disk that is full.

800

:

The computer says I'm full.

801

:

No more space.

802

:

You take the hard disk out.

803

:

You start to cleanse a lot of files

and then by doing that you can plug

804

:

the hard disk and suddenly there

is space for new programs, new apps

805

:

that are more relevant for you.

806

:

So coming back, we do the

cleansing and clearing of...

807

:

A lot, which naturally, this reconnection

with who you truly are just bubbles up

808

:

naturally, and that can be scary for

a lot of men, because what comes up as

809

:

truth can contradict the way you lived

your life for 10, 20, 30 years, and that

810

:

can be scary, and this is where a space

like the men's group is really good,

811

:

because you will be encouraged to go

there, lean in, lean in, lean in, lean in.

812

:

compared to your habitual environment

where people tell you, what are you doing?

813

:

What's wrong with you?

814

:

And a lot of judgment.

815

:

So you do the cleansing and clearing,

you reconnect with who you are.

816

:

You start to observe yourself

and life in a very different way.

817

:

And then you start to play to potential.

818

:

And actually I can add

another P, the power.

819

:

I didn't think about it before, man.

820

:

It's something that comes out of this

821

:

Sal: Beautiful.

822

:

Yeah.

823

:

Crop P.

824

:

I love it.

825

:

Thank you.

826

:

it's really, it's a really elegant model.

827

:

It's clear, it's simple, and it has

a, a, a beautiful, life cycle to it.

828

:

And it's, it's really powerful.

829

:

you're, you made a point there,

which I'm really struck by.

830

:

I want to kind of, I want to speak to

it, which is, When you change, other

831

:

people may not be ready for that.

832

:

So I've had it with my coaching clients

where they've done deep existential work

833

:

and they're like, I'm going to change.

834

:

I'm done with being the person I am.

835

:

I'm going to change.

836

:

And I work with them in my own unique

way, but not too dissimilar from you.

837

:

But to caveat that, if you're in

a place of change, people may not

838

:

be on board with you changing.

839

:

People may really struggle with that,

because as humans, we like homeostasis.

840

:

We like what we know.

841

:

It's status quo biases, a thinking bias.

842

:

Anytime we change, or if our

partner changes, that can be

843

:

challenging for the other.

844

:

So if you're embarking on change work...

845

:

I would definitely say, let your

close people know and say, tell

846

:

them what's likely to happen.

847

:

You want them on board, right?

848

:

You want them on board if they're doing

this kind of process, as opposed to

849

:

surprising the life out of them and

like, Oh, suddenly you're different.

850

:

What are you up to?

851

:

And then creating more disruption.

852

:

So it's, it's definitely, if

you're going through an evolution

853

:

point in your identity as a

person, particularly as a man.

854

:

I would say, bring the other in.

855

:

It also demonstrates vulnerability and

it also means when you speak of it, we

856

:

are still distinguishing any bits of

shame because we've spoken about it.

857

:

That's, that's my experience of,

of when someone really changes.

858

:

Have you seen that Yoram?

859

:

Yaron Engler: Yes, but I would

like to add another piece to that.

860

:

I think it's a, it's a good take to,

to tell the people around you, but

861

:

I want to be very honest as well.

862

:

When you really go there and you start

to change, there is a price sometimes.

863

:

And it could very much be that people

that are very close to you as if,

864

:

because they're not really if you

look at it, but people that are, you

865

:

consider to be very close, but you

feel that there is a disconnect, you

866

:

would naturally start to feel that

there is more and more disconnect.

867

:

Now again, that sounds scary

and this is why we avoid this.

868

:

But, and this is where the value of

leaning in, imagine if you start, you

869

:

know, you clear again, the hard disk

from, from people that might pull you

870

:

back or hold you back or judge you.

871

:

What if you understand that by doing that,

you clear the space and you will be with

872

:

people who understand you better, who

can really acknowledge what you do and

873

:

appreciate this, who can really inspire

you and make you think and feel things

874

:

that you want, but you don't have access

now because you're a little bit limited.

875

:

So there are two things.

876

:

there is the preparation of people around

you and, and naturally you will see

877

:

that some people join into the journey.

878

:

but some people will drop on the way and

it's okay because you'll find others.

879

:

So yeah, it's an important point.

880

:

And another thing I just want to mention

about before you, you mentioned crop as

881

:

a, as a kind of a complete life cycle or

something like this that you mentioned.

882

:

I want to be very, very clear.

883

:

As you and I said before, what I said

about crop, it's not that we graduate

884

:

from cleansing and clearing, we then

reconnect and then we observe life and

885

:

then everything is great and potential.

886

:

No, it's a continuous cycle.

887

:

And every time we go deeper and deeper

and deeper, as you said, you catch

888

:

yourself still, I catch myself still.

889

:

And this is another, concept that

I think is important to break.

890

:

Which is, as men, we are looking

for solutions and we want to

891

:

solve things and get to it.

892

:

You will never get to it.

893

:

as you already know, whatever was

your biggest achievement in life,

894

:

Really, like the biggest, biggest,

How long did you celebrate for?

895

:

Two hours?

896

:

A day?

897

:

Maybe you went crazy for a week?

898

:

And then, life comes back in a cycle.

899

:

So, let's stop kind of

attaching to the results.

900

:

Go there and have them because

they're nice postcodes to aim for.

901

:

But really, be present, enjoy

what you're doing on the path.

902

:

Because, I like to say this, we can either

think about life, or we can live it.

903

:

Sal: Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

904

:

I think it is, I think it's

an important point to bring

905

:

ourselves gently to a close.

906

:

Are you thinking about your life

or are you going to live it?

907

:

Thinking is safe.

908

:

Because it's in your own head, it's an

abstract, it's fantasy, a lot of the

909

:

time, living it is real, smelly, tough,

beautiful, elegant, all of the above.

910

:

So you can either live an idea of

life or you can live the real life.

911

:

I guess we get to choose, right?

912

:

So, you're on, we can speak for hours.

913

:

It's such a delight to have you on.

914

:

I know you do amazing work with men.

915

:

We shall leave your details in

the show notes for guys who want

916

:

to learn more about your ROM.

917

:

you can reach out through the

contacts in the show notes.

918

:

Amazing.

919

:

Thank you.

920

:

I hope, dear listener, that

some of these points have

921

:

triggered you, got you thinking.

922

:

If you're feeling a bit

scared, that's not a bad thing.

923

:

As Yaron has already said, lean into it.

924

:

But of course, if you feel like you

need support, go find the right people.

925

:

There's plenty of us out here.

926

:

Change is possible.

927

:

Till the next time, dear

listener, take care.

928

:

Sal Jefferies: Thank you

so much for listening.

929

:

If you enjoyed the episode,

please subscribe and if a friend

930

:

would benefit from hearing this,

do send it on to them as well.

931

:

If you would like to get in touch

yourself, then you can go to my website,

932

:

which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S

A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com.

933

:

Hit the get in touch link and there

you can send me a direct message.

934

:

If you'd like to go one step further

and learn whether coaching could help

935

:

you overcome a challenge or a block

in your life, then do reach out and

936

:

I offer a call where we can discuss

how this may be able to help you.

937

:

Until the next time, take care.

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