This episode I discuss the concept of moving from pain to power, particularly in the context of men's personal growth and development. Yaron shares his framework called "CROP" (Cleansing, Reconnecting, Observing, Peace/Play/Potential) as a way to help men navigate this journey. The conversation covers topics such as defining pain and power, the role of shame, embodiment, and the importance of self-awareness and presence. I share my experiences personally and professionally with working with men.

My hope is if you're a man is having a difficult time, this will give you some insight some tools to work with.

Key Insights/Learnings:

1. Pain can be a teacher or a source of suffering, while power is associated with freedom and presence.

2. Shame cannot survive being spoken – sharing and being witnessed can release the power of shame.

3. Leaning into pain and discomfort, rather than avoiding them, is crucial for personal growth.

4. Cultivating self-awareness through practices like body scans and observing one's thoughts and actions can lead to more freedom and power.

5. The "CROP" framework provides a cyclical approach to cleansing, reconnecting with one's authentic self, observing life with greater awareness, and living with peace, play, and potential.

6. Personal growth often involves letting go of old identities and beliefs, which can be challenging for those around us.

7. True change is an ongoing process, not a one-time achievement – it's about embracing the journey, not just the destination.

Show Notes:

0:00 - Introduction

1:00 - Defining pain and power

7:00 - Yaron's personal journey with pain and finding healthy role models

12:00 - The power of leaning into pain and discomfort

17:00 - The role of shame and the importance of speaking it

22:00 - Embodiment and using the body as a guide

27:00 - Strategies for developing self-awareness and presence

33:00 - Cultivating freedom and disconnecting from old identities

38:00 - The "CROP" framework (Cleansing, Reconnecting, Observing, Peace/Play/Potential)

43:00 - Preparing loved ones for personal growth and change

47:00 - Final thoughts: living life vs. thinking about lifeYaron's BIO

Yaron Engler, an inspiring force for positive change, brings a playful and honest approach to his coaching. With over 25 years of experience as an educator, coach, husband, father, and world-class musician, he draws from a diverse background, including featured talk at TEDxJaffa.

Yaron, the Founder of On Being Men, supports driven individuals through deep conversations and challenging practices, focusing on honest communication and purpose alignment for healthy relationships, clarity, confidence, and freedom.

Despite challenges, including battling depression and overcoming societal expectations about his passion for drumming, Yaron's journey led him to develop the CROP Cycle, a simple framework for men's growth in relationships, purpose, and freedom.

A gift for our listeners: 

Download BOUNDARIES IN ACTION: Men’s Guide to Inner Freedom in 5 Essential Steps and gain more freedom, connection, and fulfilment. - 

Get in touch with Yaron below:

Website: https://onbeingmen.com/

90-day training program: 

THE MAN YOU WANT TO BE 

In-person workshop for men in Sussex - April 2024 : YOUR CORE QUEST 

YouTube channel: 

Instagram: 

Linkedin Yaron:  

Mentions: Brene Brown's website.

Brene's TED talk - The Power of Vulnerability

Brene's TED talk - Listening to Shame

Get in touch with Sal

If this episode has caught your attention and you wish to learn more, then please contact me. I offer a free 20 min call where we can discuss a challenge your facing and how I may be able to help you.

and welcome.

2

I am delighted to be

joined by my guest Yaron.

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Yaron Engler is joining me today.

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He's the founder of Ambient Men

and he's a specialist with working

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with men in a whole host of fields.

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But I'm going to let Yaron go

deeper and explain that fully

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when we get into conversation.

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And our conversation point

today is to talk about how

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we can go from pain to power.

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So that's quite a, quite an interesting

trajectory and I'm really Excited

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to talk to Yaron about his work with

men and how he's taken them on that.

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Plus I have some

interesting points on that.

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So we're going to jump straight in.

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So first of all, Yaron, welcome.

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Really

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good to have

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you,

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Yaron Engler: Thank you, my friend.

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It's really great to be

here, and I look forward

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to see what we're going to explore.

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Sal: me too.

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So let's, let's really get clear when

we're talking about pain and power.

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Again, they're words

that can take us places.

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What's your definition

of, of pain and power?

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Yaron Engler: First of all, I really

like the fact that you're starting

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the conversation with, with clarifying

definitions, because I think a lot of

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times we talk about things and we don't

really know what we're talking about,

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so it would be great to experience that.

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I haven't thought about it

before, so I'm going to share my

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spontaneous, in the moment answer.

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Pain for me That's a really

interesting question.

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Pain for me is a burden that can be

either a teacher or a source of suffering.

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I like that.

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I didn't know it before.

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Power for me...

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Power for me is freedom.

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Sal: Perfect.

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Really, really, really eloquent.

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And as we say, it's so, for me, it's

so important to get clear on what do we

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mean by a phrase or a term, because it

could mean something different for me as

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it does to you and to, to anyone else.

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So it's so important to, to get clear.

43

So for me, pain, pain is something

which is highly sensitive.

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I'm sensicurity.

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Um, it hurts.

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I found it interesting hearing

what you said about it being

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a teacher and I you're right.

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It can also be a, uh, for me

it can be a suppressor as well.

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It can become, it pushes me down.

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So it's a, it's a powerful force.

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I guess it's how that force is going.

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Is it pushing us down or pushing

us forwards is something that I'm

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interested in, in, in going into.

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And power.

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Well, power is an

interesting word in my term.

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Power sometimes makes me think of

energy and drive and moving forwards.

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And other times it can

feel a bit dominating.

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So a little like a shadow and

light, there's sort of perhaps

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different aspects of power.

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Again, it feels to me.

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How is it applied?

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You know, what's the force behind

the there would be my interpretation.

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So um, So we've kind of got some idea

of where we're talking about now.

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So perhaps we'll start,

let's take We're men.

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Um, being a man in 2023 unusual thing.

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Certainly I'm, I'm over

mid, uh, mid century now.

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I've been around for, on

this planet a long time.

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And it's a funny old thing being a man.

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Because when I grew up, I was...

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Given all these messages, not explicitly

in a handbook, but you know, by my

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parent, my dad, and culture, and

those messages don't fit today.

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That's what I find.

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They don't fit today.

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Some of them do, but

then some of them don't.

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And I've had to do a lot of self work

to question would be, certainly to

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you personally, how have you adapted

yourself as a man of the, of the world

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from being a young boy when, when

you grew up to the man you are today?

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How have you

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Yaron Engler: That's a good question.

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it's interesting that it comes, but

I think Payne was an amazing guide.

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At the beginning, something put to push

away, and to try to avoid as much as I can

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until I understood in my early twenties,

I understood that, as I said before,

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pain can be an amazing teacher and, and,

and, and a door to a lot of wisdom and a

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lot of freedom, which again, as I said,

power, power is an interesting word.

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And I'm sure we're going

to touch that more.

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I didn't have positive role

models as a man, as a child.

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I'm, I'm, I don't think so.

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I saw what I saw.

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I had an inner truth that there was

something better than that, but it's

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hard to really apply that when we,

when I didn't see external examples,

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but there was something, you know,

I suffered from depression from

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being a teenage, for many years.

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And in my case, it was also physical.

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So I would get stuck with my neck

or with my back for two, three days.

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I could not move.

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And it happened every two, three months.

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I would get stuck like that.

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And in my mid twenties, through

a brother of a friend who later

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on became my girlfriend, he

introduced me to Greenberg method.

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I don't know if you heard

about Greenberg method.

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But Greenberg method, is a form...

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they do the analysis through your feet

and then they start to work on the body.

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And it's all about connection

between body, mind, spirit.

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It's, you learn how through

breath and work with your muscles,

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you can really release pain.

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And it's incredible since I did that,

work, I really learned how to release

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pains and find more freedom in me.

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So that was part of the release.

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of negativity that I had, but then

also, I think another very important

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milestone for me, apart from acknowledging

that pain is a I think in my case,

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I didn't really have healthy role

models as, as a man, as a child.

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And, I always wanted to find them.

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And it wasn't easy.

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So there are two layers for the

answer that I'm going to give you.

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One is, I think the thing that

really helped me is to find, role

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healthy role models more or less 10

years ago, actually, when I heard

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about this concept of men's work,

which is what drove me into that.

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Because I suddenly saw men that

had this very strong capacity to.

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being what I would call the masculine

traits, you know, very direct, strong

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with business, strong with strategy and,

you know, all these kinds of traits.

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But at the same time, they had

very easy access to compassion,

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to love, to, to self awareness.

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And I really liked that overall.

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spectrum that I saw from a man,

because for me, it was used to be

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either the macho guy or the kind of

the losery guy or something like this.

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So that's one thing.

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The other thing that is in a way

contradicts the idea of being a

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man is I suffered from depression

for many, many years in my life.

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And after, you know, it started

when I was a teenager and.

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In 2010, I learned once and for all

to let go of my depressions and that

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happened through a deep spiritual path

that I took, which helped me see the,

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disconnection from identity and that

everything that we add to the story

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that we, you know, we live in a story.

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Our life is a story.

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But it's completely imagination.

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So I can say many things about

myself, I am a man, I am a

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father, I am I am whatever.

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But it doesn't really mean anything from

that space of depth of spirituality.

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So in a way, disconnecting from

the idea of a man as well helped

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me become the man that I am

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right now.

142

So there is a contradiction there.

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Sal: I love that.

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A contradiction I would probably also

a paradox, which is of course a, uh,

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holding two, two opposites at the same

time, which feels like there's a lot of

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that in the world, but we don't see it.

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Our brain slash mind is very much built

on binary, certainly in our Western

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culture, we're very much binary thinking.

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It's either this or that.

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You're a man or you're a woman.

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You're a tough guy or you're a pussy.

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Whatever these binary terms are.

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But that's not actually true in my

experience of life, certainly in

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my personal and my professional.

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And I'm really curious that you

said there, but that unhooking of

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identity, that's such an interesting

one because identity, you know,

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it's, we, we defend it, don't we?

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We're like, I am whatever,

I'm this, I'm that.

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And if someone says that

you're not, it's very hurtful.

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And yet.

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It's really interesting if we challenge

that assumption, that, that construct,

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that story we've either told ourselves or

somehow, you know, like, like clothing,

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just managed to put all these clothes on

and like, Oh, I felt this is who I am.

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Can I, I'd love to go, because the

word spiritual again can take us

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off into different terminology.

166

What's your interpretation of spiritual?

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So we can understand how you

perhaps got to, to, to that

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Yaron Engler: You have

really good questions.

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You know, you asked me to define

things that I use on a daily

170

basis, yet I never really defined.

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So what is spirituality?

172

I think my interpretation of spirituality

would be an inquiry for truth.

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Like, you know, instead of protecting

my identity, I prefer to spend my

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time to feel what is true to me,

because when I find what is true to

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me and I can apply it, I feel free.

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And if I said before, freedom is power.

177

When I try to protect my identity, I

am getting lost in ego, in a lot of

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things that I found really damaging,

to be honest, to my life experience.

179

So, for me, the spirituality...

180

is a beautiful inquiry again,

yeah, to, to find some freedom

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and peace and

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quiet.

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Sal: Wow, That's really That's

such a powerful way interpretation.

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I'm really touched by that.

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Um, I kind of want to speak to

my interpretation of spiritual as

186

well, because when I was younger, I

thought it was all about a religion.

187

Then I just realized that

religion was a particular thing.

188

And I was lucky enough to be involved

in, Dwighter Vedanta, which is the, uh,

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ancient Sanskrit practice of non duality.

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And I got involved in that many years ago.

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And it did a similar thing to try and

inquire what is truth and, and to go

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beyond the assumptions that we all have.

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And in many ways we can't

live without assumptions.

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Otherwise it'd be a very confusing world.

195

But to believe the assumptions are

true, perhaps is dangerous or limiting.

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And I'm always fascinated to hear when

we, we challenge something or question

197

and say, Yeah, but is that really true?

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Or perhaps is it really true

in my experience can open us up

199

because if someone's in pain and

wants to change, it feels like

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there needs to be some movement.

201

There needs to be some movement either

with the pain or out of the pain.

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But if there's no movement, it's

you know, you're stuck in that

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that and it's not a nice place.

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So when we think about moving out of

pain, what other powerful ways are you

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working either on yourself or with the

guys that you work with to help that

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trajectory, that moving out of pain?

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So using it as a doorway,

as you said, what

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Yaron Engler: It's, it's interesting,

it's to do the complete opposite.

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It's, instead of moving out of

pain, it's to lean into the pain.

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I think most of the sources of

our problems in life is by the

211

fact that we are avoiding things.

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A question that I would ask the

people that I work with, the same as

213

I ask myself, is what am I avoiding?

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And the thing that I'm avoiding,

that's what I would say, okay.

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It's time to lean into that, because if

I'm avoiding a tough conversation with my

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wife because we have tension between us,

I can continue to avoid it and avoid it.

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The relationship is going to get more

tangled and more tangled and more

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tangled, and we see the outcome of so

many divorces, so many, separations,

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so many toxic relationships, so many.

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The commonality of talking about, the

wife or the husband that I, Oh yeah, kind

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of talking behind the back as if it's a

burden instead of something that it should

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be like, wow, I really love my wife.

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I really am connected.

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So if, if I'm avoiding to have

the tough conversation, I'm

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just leading to more pain.

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If instead of avoiding that pain,

I'm leaning in and I'm having,

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Hey, something isn't working here.

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And my voice can be a little bit,

you know, trembling and whatever,

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and I can be shaky, whatever the

trauma is, but I'm leaning in and

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through that I can release the pain.

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Same thing with work.

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There is this phone call, or that

email, or this conversation that you

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are avoiding, and that creates you to

feel more lost, and more disengaged,

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and more pissed off, and more resentful.

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If instead, like, no, I'm going to lean

in and I'm going to make that phone call

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and I'm going to allow myself to face

that person, whatever, and, and, and in

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the work that I do with men, it's a lot

about how to embody the traits that you

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want to have in those conversations.

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So it goes deeper than that, but it's

always, instead of going out of pain,

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I'm inviting people to go in now.

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It's not a surprise that

there are not a lot of.

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Men that are willing to go there.

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you know, there is a lot of stuff that

invites us to kind of go around it

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and play, you know, around the bushes.

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This is not my approach because

I didn't find it useful.

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I found it very, very useful to lean

in and deal with stuff for real.

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At the same time of doing that

spiritual practice where you start to

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really get to know, and I'll choose

my word carefully, what you are, not

249

who you are, the who is again, that

identity, but to understand what I am.

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and move my life from there.

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This is how I deal with pain.

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I found it super

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Sal: It really is profound.

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It's, it's work.

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I've had to get involved in myself.

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I've trained as a psychotherapist,

so psychotherapy is a, is a,

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generally a going to the darker

places in a, with a person.

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I, I've moved slightly on from

the psychotherapeutic model now

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to a more of a coaching model, but

I've two done years of therapy and

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looking at the pain and, and pain's.

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An interesting thing, I, I'm, I'm

fascinated in neuropsychology,

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like how the, the physical system

of our mind body works as well.

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And pain is a very.

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Acute signal.

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That's what it is really.

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If we talk about, you know, how the body's

responding, it's a very acute signal.

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We, we have nociceptors

in our, in our body.

268

So they are actually, they're

often called, pain receptors,

269

but I heard someone recently

described them as threat receptors.

270

And I thought it was quite interesting

about these parts of our body, which are

271

saying, Hey, there's a threat, whether

it's, you could burn your arm on a hot

272

stove or you could bang your hand on

a solid wall or something like that.

273

But when we think of pain, if

it's a signal, It's a sign.

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Signal and sign are the same thing.

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So what is the sign telling us?

276

And that's what I'm hearing you're,

you're, you're helping people figure out.

277

So what is that sign?

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And it's interesting because we often

have a reaction to pain, which is quite...

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well, it's neurological, right?

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You know, if you, if you, the classic

in your kid, you burn your hand on

281

the stove, you pull your hand away.

282

It happens before thinking.

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I think it happens in the

20th, 20th of a second.

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It's a really quick time, but it's before

the thinking brain comes online and

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says, that's, that's not good for us.

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So I do question and I wonder if our

response to, say, emotional pain, say,

287

a difficult conversation with partner

or someone at work, if we're having

288

the same, almost like the amygdala part

of the brain, the old brain saying,

289

like, alert, stay away, we need to

get the front part, the, the present

290

part online to say, what's the signal?

291

What is that?

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Rather than just let's move away from it.

293

Because if we keep moving away

from pain, we're being hunted,

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we're being chased by the pain.

295

And I think that's a really interesting

point that I'd love your thoughts on.

296

Yaron Engler: Yeah, it's, I

really like what you just said.

297

And for me, what I'm

noticing, let's take fire.

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You know, if I put my hand into

a fire, I immediately go away

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because it's, it hurts physically.

300

But we also have the understanding

that fire is great for us, and we

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use it for many, many different ways.

302

So there is the differentiation there

between, okay, it can cause pain.

303

But there are more benefits for some

reason, and especially with men, because

304

of stigma, because of society, because

of social norms, because whatever it

305

is, because of, again, not so great role

models, male role models, when it comes

306

to emotional pain, because it's also a

little bit less tangible, you don't really

307

see it, we don't see it, when we get the

burn, we run away and we don't go back

308

anymore, because we're not really given

the tools to deal with emotional pain,

309

especially as men, you know, the, the

usual, cliches of, you know, don't be a

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pussy, man up, all these kinds of things.

311

And I always say that because it is

important also, we are being taught in

312

school, you know, what happened in 1827,

how to calculate angles of triangle, never

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use this kind of stuff in life, you know,

it would be more useful if they teach us

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how to put a shelf straight on the wall,

how to create saving accounts and how to

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be more emotionally capable to handle the

challenges in life, because in the end of

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the day, this is what we are all craving.

317

We are craving to love and be loved,

yet wherever I look around me, most

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people are guided by fear, not by love.

319

And for me, this is another great question

that I ask myself on a regular basis.

320

Am I acting from fear or

am I acting from love?

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And when it comes to pain, I can choose.

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Am I acting from fear or

am I acting from love?

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The choice is extremely obvious for me.

324

Yet.

325

The choice that the majority of us take

is, is acting from fear, which caused more

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fear, which is called more pain, which

is caused more fear, which is caused.

327

It's a chain.

328

So, yeah.

329

Sal: For those who follow my

podcast and like my little snippets

330

of neurosciences, there's a...

331

There's three levels to the brain,

not literally, but this is an old

332

piece of idea called the triune brain.

333

There's the very old part, which

is, they call it the lizard brain.

334

So it's the bit that runs a

heart rate, blood pressure,

335

lungs, breathing, responses.

336

Then the mammal brain, which is

the emotional center of the limbic

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brain, and then the neocortex.

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I'm just going very quickly because

we can get caught up in neuroscience.

339

But what we forget as human

systems with our iPhones and our

340

businesses and our cultures is

that we're still animals at heart.

341

We're still, we've got all those

primary systems and the primary systems

342

are called primary for a reason.

343

Not only were they first, they act first.

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And I think it takes some from

really self aware as you said

345

about being spiritual, being really

questioning about how am I reacting?

346

Who is reacting here as well,

is another question I ask.

347

Is it me?

348

Is it my dad?

349

Is it an idea of a bloke

that I think I should be?

350

If we don't stop and question,

we are in a state of reaction.

351

If we do stop and question, and of

course use our breath, and like,

352

literally breathe for a little bit, like,

let's get part of that mind or brain

353

online to say, Where am I coming from?

354

Love, fear, who's responding now, then

we don't get out of that cycle of pain.

355

Do you know another thing that

strikes me, Yaron, is that I

356

remember when I was a kid, I was,

I've always been highly sensitive.

357

Now that used to be it,

ribs, like sensitive.

358

Now I realize it's a skill set.

359

It's like having 4D technology.

360

I'm aware of everything, but it

can be overwhelming sometimes.

361

But when you're super sensitive,

like you feel a lot, like literally,

362

I mean, I feel a lot physically

and mentally, emotionally.

363

It's can be overwhelming,

but it can also be revealing.

364

And if you show, and my experience

of being a boy when I grew up in the

365

seventies of showing, if you showed stuff,

which was anything other than what the

366

social construct was, rather than be

tough, and it wasn't tough, there is this.

367

I know I got laughed at.

368

I can remember peers being

laughed at for stuff.

369

And there's that quality

of shaming that can go on.

370

Whether kids know this or whether

people know this, there's something

371

wrong with you because you've

expressed an emotion, a feeling.

372

And shame's something I've had

to do loads of work on myself.

373

I continue to do work on it.

374

I talk about it a lot with people,

certainly the men I work with.

375

I'd like to get your insights

on shame because it's this...

376

Sneaky, powerful, kind of damaging energy

or emotion, whatever we want to call it.

377

And it really, for me, has stopped me so

many times in my life until I faced it.

378

Like you were saying, face your pain.

379

What would you, perhaps you could

share more on your thoughts about

380

shame and how that works with something

with men and moving from pain.

381

Yaron Engler: It's really interesting that

you're asking that because we literally

382

just this on Tuesday we did a session with

one of the groups around shame, and it's

383

a very challenging session, but beautiful

because again, it's leaning in and on the

384

other side, guys suddenly feel like, ah,

I'm free from this thing that I've been

385

holding with me inside me that nobody

knew for 20 years, suddenly like it.

386

doesn't matter anymore.

387

And it's, and there are two

things I would like to mention.

388

first of all, it's important to

differentiate between shame and guilt.

389

because they're, they're similar.

390

And I think a lot of times we mix them.

391

Shame is more connected to kind of an

understanding, feeling that something

392

is wrong with me as a being, you know,

something was the way I was built

393

is wrong, it's kind of very, very,

ingrained in the sense of beings.

394

I am, something isn't right about me.

395

Guilt is very similar, but it's more

about an act, some action that I.

396

did.

397

So with guilt, it's easier to, there

is someone that you can, again,

398

lean in and have a conversation,

apologize, clean the thing.

399

With shame, it's more about

your relationship with yourself.

400

And then you probably know Brene Brown.

401

She has a sentence, which

I think is just bang on.

402

And it says, shame cannot

survive being spoken.

403

I have seen this so many times that when

we allow ourselves to speak our shame in

404

a safe space where we can just share this

thing, and it's amazing with the groups of

405

men because a lot of times I see men that

literally held this really dark, horrible,

406

painful, suffer causing thing in their

being for literally 5, 10, 20 more years,

407

speak it out, And And the funny thing

that happens, first of all, feel free.

408

There is a little bit of like, oh,

shit, this is like, a bit scary.

409

But, but then once it's done, they feel

free, but also this, this realization that

410

they suddenly see, they will see in the,

in the space, three, four, five other men

411

saying me too, and then you understand

that this dark thought that you had about

412

yourself, that you are ugly, that you're

stupid, that you're not good enough,

413

that you're whatever it is that the

is, it's like, oh, shit, I'm not alone.

414

And it's actually just common.

415

And so on.

416

And I think it's really important because

so many of us, and I used to be there, I'm

417

no longer in that space because I've done

a lot of work on myself, but if you are

418

someone listening to this and you judge

your, the way you think, the way you feel

419

as something is wrong with you, trust me,

if somebody would put a mic on anybody's

420

thoughts, we would all be either in

prison or in a mental asylum, all of us.

421

So everything is okay.

422

and again, take this.

423

Shame cannot survive being spoken.

424

That's a great tool that I believe

425

Sal: absolutely Beautiful, Yes.

426

I know Brennan Brown's work.

427

I've used it.

428

I've cited it.

429

And it's, it's powerful for,

we'll, we'll put a link in the

430

show notes for, for listeners.

431

if you don't already know Brenny

Brown and it's so powerful, what you

432

said there, and it's something I've

experienced and clearly you're, you're

433

working with him naming it saying,

Hey, I feel like this, I feel whatever

434

that is, it releases the power.

435

It's, it's like, it dispels

its, magic charge, doesn't it?

436

For me, it's like, once you've spoken it,

particularly if you've been witnessed.

437

And someone who's just like, yeah, okay.

438

Yeah, me too.

439

And that's, oh, that's okay.

440

And the witnessing and the speaking

is a really powerful thing.

441

Is that something you've experienced?

442

Yaron Engler: No, but I just had like a

really interesting, you know, it's the

443

thing about like a water that is getting

stuck and you have the hole there and

444

you see that something is stuck and

it's like, I don't want to touch it.

445

I don't want to touch it.

446

I don't want, but if you just

go and touch it and you move

447

it, the water starts to flow.

448

It's, and I love what you said

because the image came very strong

449

for me that it's just that we need

to, again, it's about leaning.

450

Sal: me, there's something,

and I want to speak around the

451

body of this and embodiment.

452

So I, I do a lot of my regular,

as you'll know, for new people.

453

so I work with the mind, I work with

emotions and I work with the body.

454

I'm so interested in how

we use physical movement.

455

in an intelligent way.

456

And I don't just mean to grow big muscles

and be cardiovascularly efficient,

457

even though that's really good.

458

If our body is functioning and moving

well, it's a processing system.

459

It processes trauma.

460

It creates all sorts of things

that work our brain, and hence

461

our mind is in a different state.

462

And all experiences

embodied to some degree.

463

I had a, share something personal.

464

I had a treatment done

recently, a fascia treatment.

465

So those who don't know, if you

have a certain deep tissue massage,

466

fascia is the connective tissue.

467

And there's some deep work going in there.

468

And my, my, my guy did a bit of work on

an old scar, 30 year old scar in the body.

469

I thought it was fine, you know, I've

been, I've had a lot of work done and

470

he did some work on it and the next,

through the night and the next day,

471

oh, the anger and the fury and then

the fear, literally, I was as if I was

472

drunk and I hadn't drunk any alcohol,

it was as if I was drunk and I said to

473

my partner, like, you know, just give

me space, I need space, it's something

474

that's got triggered and released, it's

coming up and it went, literally, it was

475

24 hours and it just sort of faded away.

476

So there's so much in our body and we

want to get closer to our body as well.

477

The embodiment, the physicality.

478

What are you doing, Yaron, that

brings men into their bodies and,

479

and does any form of bodywork?

480

I'm curious to what you

might use in your practice.

481

Yaron Engler: Oh, there's a lot.

482

As you know, I'm sure that

you have many, many practices.

483

I think.

484

You know, I won't go into all of it

because it's, it's useless, but I think

485

as a first step is, it's just to, it

comes back to what we spoke about before.

486

It's to build awareness.

487

So again, just as a simple form, we are

so busy as man, especially in our, we

488

are in our heads thinking constantly.

489

And it's about allowing myself

to, okay, there is thinking, but

490

what is going on with my body?

491

And really to start developing

the awareness of sensations in the

492

body that we don't even notice.

493

So something that I really

like to do, and I do it very

494

often, is kind of a body scan.

495

It's a form of simple meditation.

496

You draw people into breathing

a little bit, and then I tell

497

them like, Notice where you carry

tension in your body right now.

498

And for example, I am now, as I

speak to you, I'm noticing that

499

I have Some tension in my throat,

which is a common place for me.

500

It's a chakra that I haven't yet

released and still work in progress.

501

But by noticing it, then I can start

to change my breath or to change

502

my posture a little bit or not.

503

Just acknowledge, Oh, here's a teacher.

504

There's a teacher here that told me that I

am holding tension in one part of my body.

505

What does that mean?

506

And then to spend some time with it.

507

And it's, it's to start using the body

as a guide that if there is tension,

508

I can slowly release the tension.

509

And if I start to release the tension in

my body, I will release more potential

510

for thinking, for relaxing, and so on.

511

A lot of people don't notice

that they have headaches.

512

All the time, that they have

pain in the neck all the time.

513

And, and then we're surprised that we are

constantly angry, frustrated, ta, ta, ta.

514

And that's the thing.

515

Okay.

516

So pay attention to the body

and start releasing that.

517

And you'll see that again, the impact

will be on all the other ingredients

518

that you're more interested in your

level of clarity, confidence, and so on.

519

Sal: Yeah, it

520

did.

521

Um, I've done body scans and if

you, if, if, if our listeners

522

haven't done it, it's really a case

of going to any part of the body.

523

A lot of us start from the feet

up and you spend time noticing.

524

Now I'm fascinated.

525

I have a lot of kinesthetic awareness.

526

It's perhaps a natural intelligence

I was given and I've done huge

527

amounts of physical training and

I'm very connected to my body.

528

I've worked with people who've

been traumatized for different

529

reasons, different, situations,

and they've had a really difficult

530

time connecting with their body.

531

So for some of us connecting

with our body is difficult.

532

So I would say wherever we are

at, start with the most obvious,

533

and I almost guarantee you can

connect with your fingertips.

534

So here you need to be

touching your fingertips.

535

There's reasons for this.

536

There's more neurons in your nerve cells,

in your fingertips, your lips and your

537

tongue than anywhere else in your body.

538

So if, if that's the least you do,

rubbing your fingertips will give you a

539

feel of what's going on just physically.

540

And it starts at the subtle.

541

And some of the guys I've worked

with, we go gross, like the big stuff.

542

So if you carry a heavy weight

or let's say do a heavy deadlift,

543

you really have to pay attention

to your body to do the exercise

544

because it's so overt and demanding.

545

And it can start there.

546

It can start there for guys.

547

I found that's a really powerful way.

548

Go heavy, go intense and go there.

549

And then if you're luckier, you

might be able to go towards the

550

yoga practice where you spend time

and it's really, really subtle.

551

But it's start where you

have some connection will

552

be my, my, my work on that.

553

I will start with where we can find

connection and then we expand from there.

554

What, what, what's your thoughts on that?

555

Yaron Engler: I think

the gym example is great.

556

And that's a great space for men,

actually, to start building that

557

awareness and to literally work on

it in a way that they can notice.

558

So I have seen so many times in

gyms, trying to lift a weight, we are

559

closing, squeezing, and that's the

complete opposite of what we should do.

560

So the invitation for men, if you

are someone who goes and does weight.

561

Next time you lift, instead of tensioning

and tensing everything, try to release

562

and to take a deep breath in and as

you exhale and you lift the weight,

563

relax your body instead of creating

tension, it's contradictive, but doing

564

the gym actually is a perfect exercise.

565

Thank you.

566

Place.

567

You know, I'm still waiting for

the gym that instead of putting

568

also this kind of music that takes

you all kind of out of yourself.

569

What if we do gyms that have more relaxed

music that invite you to slow things down

570

and to lift those weight from a place of

relaxation instead of place of forcing.

571

We are forcing too much in our lives

instead of creating from just a more

572

relaxed and free

573

Sal: Forgive me, I'm chuckling in

the background as you're on speaker.

574

I go to a popular gym, it's a really

great gym, I won't name it but...

575

Sometimes I see some guys there doing

the face and the face is squeezed,

576

the eyes, the jaws, like crazy.

577

And I could almost guarantee they

need to go triple on that weight.

578

Because I've been made to do

it by some of my trainers.

579

They'll just go, no go double.

580

You're like, What?!

581

That's when you really would pull

that face because it is beyond

582

almost the edge of possibility.

583

What is interesting about your thing,

and it's both funny and also concerning,

584

is we need to help, I think when we're

moving, whether it's weight, whether it's

585

yoga, or whether it's walking down the

road, we have tension and we can be tense.

586

And they are very different phenomena,

so physically and emotionally.

587

You can be tense, which is

tight, which is resistant, which

588

is a freeze state, which is...

589

It's kind of tantamount to moving

towards a trauma type, experience.

590

It's also perhaps a depressed

state, it's lockdown.

591

Whereas tension is the right amount

of force that your body might need

592

to walk, or to lift, or to carry.

593

If we misunderstand the two and get

binary, we go, we're tense or we're soggy.

594

We're in problems.

595

So the right amount of tension, and I

had very fortunate experience in yoga.

596

I did a lot of yoga for years, became

a yoga teacher and learned about

597

tensional forces and, biotensegrity

is one of the terms of the, the

598

tensional integrity of the body.

599

The same I see with the mind you're on.

600

This is such an interesting thing

that people have tension in the mind.

601

It's like, okay, I need to focus

on something or they're tense.

602

Like, Oh my God, I've got to do this.

603

And I think if we are softer, more with

the feeling, and this is everything

604

you're saying, and I love it.

605

We're with that feeling, whether

it's a heavy weight or whether

606

it's a challenge at work.

607

A difficult conversation.

608

The right tension, but not tense is

possibly how we're going to navigate that.

609

That challenge isn't in front of us.

610

Yaron Engler: And just to build on

that, a great, just to connect things

611

with what we said before, it's to

observe where you're coming from.

612

Are you coming from love or

are you coming from fear?

613

What I mean by that is those guys

that you say that are like, Oh,

614

like this, what actually guides

them to lift such a big weight?

615

It's if we take it down and

we drill down, it is fear.

616

I'm not good enough.

617

I need to look strong.

618

I need to, it's, it's, it's, it's, and

if someone goes to the gym for a place,

619

I'm going to take care of my body.

620

I'm going to take care of myself.

621

I don't care what people think about me.

622

I'm going to take this weight,

take a deep breath and lift

623

it because I do it for myself.

624

That's coming from, from love.

625

So all these things, It's, yeah, the tense

and the tension, it's to, again, analyze

626

for yourself, where am I coming from?

627

And that will help you to guide

yourself to what you said,

628

to the, to the positive path

629

Sal: yeah, yeah, absolutely.

630

It's so interesting.

631

I've been there, I've done it where

I've shown up at a gym or training

632

session where I've I've tried to prove.

633

because my own insecurities, my own

shame has been sneaking up in my mind.

634

And I'm like, yeah, I'm going to, I did.

635

I'll catch it.

636

I'm like, dude, what are you doing?

637

No one gives a damn anyway.

638

And I moved because of all of

the health markers for health,

639

for mental, physical, emotional.

640

And I say this to everyone I work with.

641

Exercise has got the wrong

concept in our culture.

642

Exercise is freedom.

643

Exercise should be joy.

644

It's vitality.

645

Who doesn't want more of that?

646

And there are ways to do it.

647

But if you come at the gym or whatever

training you're doing, and you're

648

trying to prove something, you're

trying to fill a hole of insecurity,

649

the weight will never be heavy enough.

650

It just won't.

651

Yaron Engler: I love that.

652

I love that.

653

And again, I totally relate to that.

654

And I still catch myself.

655

It's again, it's a work

in progress forever.

656

It's not like I'm, you know, but it's good

to catch ourselves and clean and clear

657

because then again, we have more power.

658

We have more freedom.

659

Sal: let's bring our, this

kind of bring our trajectory.

660

So we're, we're really speaking like,

okay, how can we move from pain to power?

661

And it feels like we're really

naming the key components about

662

seeing it, being with it, and some

of the, the, the ways to start

663

understanding where are you coming from?

664

So if we move our attention more

towards how do we, we're going

665

closer towards power now in.

666

in this space.

667

We, you defined power earlier

and I'm wondering about power.

668

I'm wondering about, I'm trying

to embody this myself, the pain

669

I've been through and as place of

power, how can we get more power?

670

So perhaps, what are we aiming for?

671

What is it?

672

You describe freedom.

673

I describe movement autonomy, but

what's, what are some of the strategies

674

you've been deploying both for your own

experience and the men you're working

675

with to start tuning into what is power?

676

How do we go towards them?

677

Yaron Engler: So for me, as I

said, power for me is freedom.

678

And when I say freedom, it's the

freedom from the identity that I'm

679

supposed to be something or someone.

680

Once I remove that pressure and understand

that I no longer need to live by what

681

my parents are expecting from me, what

society expects me, what I should be

682

doing, but I'm, I'm investigating more.

683

What is it that is driving me?

684

Not even what it is that I want, because

that's another, what is it drives me?

685

and we can connect this to the word

purpose, which is a big word, you know,

686

but I, I do believe that, spending time

to, Let some kind of thing that is a

687

drive a why whatever the language again

language is a funny thing But we all know

688

that there are things that pull us that

we will do anyway That it's and a lot

689

of us because we spend a lot of time in

our head We we forget about this and we

690

start to kind of go follow the written

rules and some written rules and and

691

and it's miserable so by Disconnecting

from that identity and that need to do

692

something because I'm supposed to, and

spending time in really defining who am

693

I and what do I want to create, and then

I can create freedom, and then I can,

694

through that freedom, I, again, power

is a funny word, as you said, because

695

when I think about power, it's like,

all this macho and if people are still

696

chasing that, I find it funny, to be

honest, and, so it's not really what I'm

697

talking about, because for me, power is

presence, is freedom, um, so again, I

698

think the lack of identity, the relaxation

into what is instead of what's supposed

699

to be, and yes, and spending some time

in, in feeling into what is my purpose,

700

what is it that I'm meant to be

701

here?

702

Thank you.

703

Sal: Power is presence.

704

Wow.

705

That is a line.

706

I'm all about presence because

if you're not, if you don't exude

707

presence in life, where are you?

708

You're somewhere in the past.

709

You're somewhere in the future.

710

They're both abstractions in reality.

711

If you're not really with what you're

doing, then you don't have presence.

712

And power.

713

You know, if we think for

a second, What do I want?

714

What do I want for life?

715

And I don't know many

people that different.

716

I don't know, yeah, you might want

this car or that house or this job.

717

They're kind of the expressions,

but what do we want?

718

We want to feel good.

719

We want to feel loved.

720

We want to feel safe.

721

Whatever those feelings are, they're

all generally positive feeling.

722

Most people want the positive stuff.

723

And freedom, presence.

724

Those are wonderful ways to

express yourself into being.

725

And of course, when we think about

freedom or the opposite, being trapped

726

or shut down, if you're driven by an

idea or the past or a construct of what

727

a man should be, what you should be,

You need to get free of that because

728

otherwise it's, it's, it's, it's a

box and I'm really fascinated to, to

729

sort of talk a bit more about freedom.

730

It's a value that I hold dear.

731

Freedom is something which, for

me, I'm just going to caveat this.

732

It's not about sitting on

the sofa doing nothing.

733

It's, it's free to choose, free

to be present, free to learn.

734

So it's quite a dynamic thing that

connects to things as opposed to,

735

I don't have to go to work today.

736

That's just not doing anything.

737

So my term of freedom is, is

having volition and energy

738

to go towards and learn.

739

How Are you helping people uncouple that

old narrative and connect with freedom?

740

Do you actually, do you help people

say like, this is your freedom?

741

How are you working with some of the

guys you're working with who might have

742

strong connections to the past identity

and yet want to move towards power?

743

What's some strategies

you're, you're using?

744

Yaron Engler: there are many

ways that I can work, with men.

745

And I think probably the best way

to describe it is I created a very

746

simple framework that really helps

men understand where we are playing.

747

So we are using a lot of tools,

but it will all fall into

748

that crop framework and crop.

749

First of all, we like to talk

about meanings of words here.

750

So the meaning of crop,

there are two meanings.

751

One is something that we're planting.

752

in the ground in order to nourish

ourselves later on, that it will come

753

as a crop, which is something that

I feel is a good strategy for life.

754

And to be very careful with

what we're planting, of course.

755

And the other meaning is, you know, like

in Photoshop, we have a lot of a picture.

756

And there's a lot of stuff and we like to

crop the thing that really matters to us.

757

The same thing with life.

758

You know, we have the mortgage,

the kids, the thing, the work, the

759

whatever, the going to the gym.

760

There's a lot of noise.

761

How can we let go of everything,

all the noise and keep what we,

762

what truly, truly matters to us.

763

And crop comes from the C R O

P and I'll start from the end.

764

What we want in that sense of

freedom that we're talking about

765

is, is peace, play and potential.

766

We want to play life with our

potential and to really enjoy a

767

free life, fun of, where we connect

with people, where we have fun.

768

In order to be in that peace

space, we need to move to the O.

769

And the O is what we

have been talking about.

770

It's to have a much deeper

observation of what's going on.

771

How am I acting?

772

Why am I thinking like this?

773

Why am I speaking like this?

774

What is actually going on here?

775

And the more self aware I become to what's

going on, the more I can then act in life.

776

In order to do that self, that

observation, I need to know who I am.

777

And that takes me to the R.

778

The R is reconnecting, reconnecting with

who you truly are, not what you've been

779

told, not all the stories, all the masks

that we put, but really reconnecting

780

with something really, really.

781

Deep, that is you.

782

And in order to do that comes

the C, which is where the heavy

783

lifting of the work is happening.

784

That's the cleansing and clearing.

785

And that's a lot of unlearning.

786

You know, we live in a world where we

constantly need to learn more things,

787

and we get more and more information.

788

I go in the other way.

789

I'm telling you we're going to cleanse

and clear a lot of shit that you've

790

accumulated, that it makes you feel that

you're something or someone, but it's

791

actually killing you because it's not.

792

And so we do a lot of

practices around the clean.

793

We spoke about shame.

794

We clear the shame.

795

We spoke about, we talk about

habits around the information

796

that we consume and the food that

we consume and a lot of things.

797

And we start to let go naturally.

798

Once we start to let go,

it's like a hard disk.

799

You know, you take a

hard disk that is full.

800

The computer says I'm full.

801

No more space.

802

You take the hard disk out.

803

You start to cleanse a lot of files

and then by doing that you can plug

804

the hard disk and suddenly there

is space for new programs, new apps

805

that are more relevant for you.

806

So coming back, we do the

cleansing and clearing of...

807

A lot, which naturally, this reconnection

with who you truly are just bubbles up

808

naturally, and that can be scary for

a lot of men, because what comes up as

809

truth can contradict the way you lived

your life for 10, 20, 30 years, and that

810

can be scary, and this is where a space

like the men's group is really good,

811

because you will be encouraged to go

there, lean in, lean in, lean in, lean in.

812

compared to your habitual environment

where people tell you, what are you doing?

813

What's wrong with you?

814

And a lot of judgment.

815

So you do the cleansing and clearing,

you reconnect with who you are.

816

You start to observe yourself

and life in a very different way.

817

And then you start to play to potential.

818

And actually I can add

another P, the power.

819

I didn't think about it before, man.

820

It's something that comes out of this

821

Sal: Beautiful.

822

Yeah.

823

Crop P.

824

I love it.

825

Thank you.

826

it's really, it's a really elegant model.

827

It's clear, it's simple, and it has

a, a, a beautiful, life cycle to it.

828

And it's, it's really powerful.

829

you're, you made a point there,

which I'm really struck by.

830

I want to kind of, I want to speak to

it, which is, When you change, other

831

people may not be ready for that.

832

So I've had it with my coaching clients

where they've done deep existential work

833

and they're like, I'm going to change.

834

I'm done with being the person I am.

835

I'm going to change.

836

And I work with them in my own unique

way, but not too dissimilar from you.

837

But to caveat that, if you're in

a place of change, people may not

838

be on board with you changing.

839

People may really struggle with that,

because as humans, we like homeostasis.

840

We like what we know.

841

It's status quo biases, a thinking bias.

842

Anytime we change, or if our

partner changes, that can be

843

challenging for the other.

844

So if you're embarking on change work...

845

I would definitely say, let your

close people know and say, tell

846

them what's likely to happen.

847

You want them on board, right?

848

You want them on board if they're doing

this kind of process, as opposed to

849

surprising the life out of them and

like, Oh, suddenly you're different.

850

What are you up to?

851

And then creating more disruption.

852

So it's, it's definitely, if

you're going through an evolution

853

point in your identity as a

person, particularly as a man.

854

I would say, bring the other in.

855

It also demonstrates vulnerability and

it also means when you speak of it, we

856

are still distinguishing any bits of

shame because we've spoken about it.

857

That's, that's my experience of,

of when someone really changes.

858

Have you seen that Yoram?

859

Yaron Engler: Yes, but I would

like to add another piece to that.

860

I think it's a, it's a good take to,

to tell the people around you, but

861

I want to be very honest as well.

862

When you really go there and you start

to change, there is a price sometimes.

863

And it could very much be that people

that are very close to you as if,

864

because they're not really if you

look at it, but people that are, you

865

consider to be very close, but you

feel that there is a disconnect, you

866

would naturally start to feel that

there is more and more disconnect.

867

Now again, that sounds scary

and this is why we avoid this.

868

But, and this is where the value of

leaning in, imagine if you start, you

869

know, you clear again, the hard disk

from, from people that might pull you

870

back or hold you back or judge you.

871

What if you understand that by doing that,

you clear the space and you will be with

872

people who understand you better, who

can really acknowledge what you do and

873

appreciate this, who can really inspire

you and make you think and feel things

874

that you want, but you don't have access

now because you're a little bit limited.

875

So there are two things.

876

there is the preparation of people around

you and, and naturally you will see

877

that some people join into the journey.

878

but some people will drop on the way and

it's okay because you'll find others.

879

So yeah, it's an important point.

880

And another thing I just want to mention

about before you, you mentioned crop as

881

a, as a kind of a complete life cycle or

something like this that you mentioned.

882

I want to be very, very clear.

883

As you and I said before, what I said

about crop, it's not that we graduate

884

from cleansing and clearing, we then

reconnect and then we observe life and

885

then everything is great and potential.

886

No, it's a continuous cycle.

887

And every time we go deeper and deeper

and deeper, as you said, you catch

888

yourself still, I catch myself still.

889

And this is another, concept that

I think is important to break.

890

Which is, as men, we are looking

for solutions and we want to

891

solve things and get to it.

892

You will never get to it.

893

as you already know, whatever was

your biggest achievement in life,

894

Really, like the biggest, biggest,

How long did you celebrate for?

895

Two hours?

896

A day?

897

Maybe you went crazy for a week?

898

And then, life comes back in a cycle.

899

So, let's stop kind of

attaching to the results.

900

Go there and have them because

they're nice postcodes to aim for.

901

But really, be present, enjoy

what you're doing on the path.

902

Because, I like to say this, we can either

think about life, or we can live it.

903

Sal: Beautiful, absolutely beautiful.

904

I think it is, I think it's

an important point to bring

905

ourselves gently to a close.

906

Are you thinking about your life

or are you going to live it?

907

Thinking is safe.

908

Because it's in your own head, it's an

abstract, it's fantasy, a lot of the

909

time, living it is real, smelly, tough,

beautiful, elegant, all of the above.

910

So you can either live an idea of

life or you can live the real life.

911

I guess we get to choose, right?

912

So, you're on, we can speak for hours.

913

It's such a delight to have you on.

914

I know you do amazing work with men.

915

We shall leave your details in

the show notes for guys who want

916

to learn more about your ROM.

917

you can reach out through the

contacts in the show notes.

918

Amazing.

919

Thank you.

920

I hope, dear listener, that

some of these points have

921

triggered you, got you thinking.

922

If you're feeling a bit

scared, that's not a bad thing.

923

As Yaron has already said, lean into it.

924

But of course, if you feel like you

need support, go find the right people.

925

There's plenty of us out here.

926

Change is possible.

927

Till the next time, dear

listener, take care.

928

Sal Jefferies: Thank you

so much for listening.

929

If you enjoyed the episode,

please subscribe and if a friend

930

would benefit from hearing this,

do send it on to them as well.

931

If you would like to get in touch

yourself, then you can go to my website,

932

which is sal jeffries.com, spelled S

A L J E F E R I E s sal jeffries.com.

933

Hit the get in touch link and there

you can send me a direct message.

934

If you'd like to go one step further

and learn whether coaching could help

935

you overcome a challenge or a block

in your life, then do reach out and

936

I offer a call where we can discuss

how this may be able to help you.

937

Until the next time, take care.