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David Berger - Reimagining Myths for Redemption
Episode 15 • 7th July 2023 • Mythic • Boston Blake
00:00:00 00:45:53

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Author David Berger discusses Task Force Gaea and his mythic influences. Ovid's Metamorphoses, Clash of the Titans, Wonder Woman, and more!

About David Berger

David Berger was the boy under the blanket reading books by flashlight when he should have been sleeping, and he hasn’t stopped reading since. His creative fires started by reading Greek mythology, the stories of Olympian gods and heroes sparking a conflagration of learning that took him through novels—sci-fi, fantasy, or whatever he could find—and that, coupled with his love of comic books, especially Wonder Woman, brought him to writing. The act of putting pen to paper gave him an outlet he had never had, and the inspiration of the Muses pushed him forward.

His love of fantasy prompted writing a Greek myth fantasy series, Task Force: Gaea, a Celtic fantasy trilogy beginning with The Quest of Wyndracer and Fyrehunter, as well as an anthology of his own short fiction and poetry, Hippocrene’s Promise. When he’s not teaching or writing, he’s living his best fantasy life playing Dungeons & Dragons.

www.davidbergerbooks.com

Twitter: CaptW0nd3r

Key Moments

  • 04:49 - David Berger's origin story
  • 09:44 - Task Force Gaea
  • 17:19 - Reversing Ovid's Metamorphoses: Artemis and Actaeon, Perseus and Medusa
  • 20:38 - Year of Redemption: reflections on teaching high school during the 2020 Covid shutdown
  • 26:35 - Clash of the Titans, Perseus is a dick.
  • 34:46 - Odysseus, the rise of humanism, and the twilight of the gods


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Music composed by Kevin MacLeod

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Transcripts

Boston:

This episode will benefit from some context.

Boston:

My guest today is David Berger, who is a good friend that I

Boston:

met a number of years ago.

Boston:

He is not only an incredibly talented writer and lover of myth and Wonder Woman.

Boston:

He's also a dedicated teacher.

Boston:

David and I recorded this episode back in May of 2021, and some of

Boston:

what we discuss is really pertinent to that time when we were coming

Boston:

out of the Deep Covid lockdowns.

Boston:

This recording has been on ice for a really long time, and I just sat

Boston:

down to edit it a few weeks ago, and it was a really powerful experience

Boston:

because it reminded me of why I started this podcast in the first place.

Boston:

I started Mythic for three reasons.

Boston:

One was to give myself an outlet to talk about myth and pop culture and

Boston:

how those things weave together.

Boston:

The second was to engage the mythological community the people who

Boston:

are approaching mythology from both an academic and creative perspective.

Boston:

The third reason was to find my people.

Boston:

If you're listening to this, you might be somebody who really

Boston:

identifies with myth and archetypal thinking, storytelling, and.

Boston:

At least in my experience, it's a pretty small group of people who really

Boston:

thinks deeply about these things.

Boston:

And I created this so that we would have a place to discuss.

Boston:

And so sitting down with David, David and I share so many interests

Boston:

in common, you'll hear more about David when I introduce him.

Boston:

but I guess what I'm trying to say is that I'm excited to get back to

Boston:

the core of why I started Mythic.

Boston:

I'm going to make some changes to the format.

Boston:

More storytelling, which people have asked me for, more of my own responses to pop

Boston:

culture and more guests, I hope, who are working with myth in different ways, who

Boston:

have maybe a more casual relationship with mythology than say, depth psychologists.

Boston:

And also I hope to continue to interview as a many depth psychologist

Boston:

and mythologist as I possibly can.

Boston:

But at the end of the day, one of the reasons that myth endures is because

Boston:

it not only enlightens us, it not only inspires us, but it entertains us.

Boston:

Myth is fun and talking with David.

Boston:

And more importantly, editing after two years this conversation with David

Boston:

really got me back in touch with having community around myth and storytelling.

Boston:

And toward that end, I'm going to start hosting a monthly Zoom call

Boston:

for anybody who wants to join.

Boston:

If you'd like to get that information, you can go to boston

Boston:

blake.com or mythic podcast.com.

Boston:

I'll have it in both places, there'll be free.

Boston:

There's no charge for that.

Boston:

I hope I'll see you there.

Boston:

I would love to meet you, would love to meet the people who are listening

Boston:

to Mythic and to discuss myth and pop culture and personal development,

Boston:

and how they all weave together.

Boston:

So I hope you enjoy this episode.

Boston:

Thank you for being here.

Boston:

And here is Mr.

Boston:

David Berger.

Boston:

My guest today is Mr.

Boston:

David Berger.

Boston:

He is the author of a series of mythology, superhero novel.

Boston:

And the ones I've read are the Task Force Gaea series.

Boston:

I met David online many years ago, through the DC Comics Message Boards.

Boston:

And then, when that was when DC comics had message boards and then

Boston:

that closed down and the Wonder Woman tribe migrated to Comic Book

Boston:

Resources, and David was the moderator.

Boston:

AKA Aegis bearer of the Wonder Woman chat room and, Wonder Woman, as she

Boston:

has brought so many friends into my life, she brought David into my

Boston:

life and I'm very grateful for that.

Boston:

And David is also a high school teacher in Land O Lakes, Florida, and, is a

Boston:

generally great contributor to humankind.

Boston:

Thank you for being here, David.

David:

it's my pleasure.

David:

Thank you for having me.

Boston:

How did myth find its way into your life?

David:

I think it all started back in school when I was very young and we

David:

learned about Greek mythology in school somewhere, probably in middle school.

David:

And I found myself fascinated by the stories and the magic behind the stories.

David:

My first introduction was to Greek mythology and then

David:

it later expanded to others.

David:

Then once the comic world came into my life and of course, Wonder

David:

Woman, and then they meshed that's when I think I even was more fueled

David:

to look more into it because wow.

David:

If mythology ties into this other character, I want to

David:

know more about the mythology.

David:

And I just kept reading every book I could.

David:

I mean this was before the internet.

David:

So every book I could find and multiple books, even if it was on the same

David:

subject .Picture books, I look at art.

David:

art based on mythology.

David:

So I saw things that I probably didn't understand much back then, but now

David:

as an adult, I do understand, It was, it's been a huge part of my life?

David:

Every day of my life is surrounded by some aspect of mythology, whether it's

David:

in the shrine I'm sitting in right now, or just pieces of art on the wall of

David:

my home are based in mythology as well.

Boston:

How old were you when these came into your life?

David:

I'm going to say, early teens, maybe 11 or 12 at the earliest,

David:

whenever middle school started.

David:

Or maybe it was late elementary.

David:

Cause I know that tenure at 10 years old, I was in fifth grade.

David:

So maybe about twelve.

David:

I think it was when I was in junior high school, middle school,

David:

when we started reading that.

David:

And I don't know how it got introduced.

David:

I don't know from what lessons or what books we were looking at, I do

David:

actually have a copy somewhere in my home of D'Aulaire's, mythology, which

David:

has been one of my favorite books ever, just because of the artwork.

David:

And I know that you're probably familiar with it.

David:

and then.

Boston:

a beautiful book.

Boston:

It was one of my first mythology books to,

David:

One of my favorite pictures in it is a picture of Gaia and your runner.

David:

Yeah.

David:

It's just, it's a spectacular piece of art and the whole book is, and I

David:

think somehow I acquired that book.

David:

I don't think I ever returned it to the library, to be honest, I

David:

think it's got to still has the book card in the inside cover.

David:

Yeah, that was when I first started.

David:

And then any other book that had it in it, any book I could find.

Boston:

That's about when it started for me too.

Boston:

That's when I really started digging deep and I had the reading

Boston:

chops to be able to track it down.

Boston:

But most of the myths that I could find were kids' books.

Boston:

Had comics already entered your world at that point.

David:

Yeah, I think so.

David:

I think that was about maybe I wasn't interested yet in

David:

Wonder Woman the way I am now.

David:

But I think as a comic book reader, that was when I started

David:

getting into comics at that point.

David:

And that's how I was introduced to the comic book, mythology Wonder Woman thing.

David:

And then also Super Friends that episode of her origin.

David:

all that was all of that was around the same time for me.

David:

I think.

Boston:

And when you did plug into mythology and to dilemma, do you

Boston:

remember one of the first stories that, that caught your imagination?

David:

The stories that I remember are the ones tied to the pictures and

David:

I there's picture of Artemis running through the woods with animals around her.

David:

And I remember reading about her and being one of Zeus's favorite children.

David:

And, and also as a huge spread in the book of Athena with everything about

David:

her, from crafts to war, to everything.

David:

And I just remember.

David:

The story is about all the birth stories, all the origin stories.

David:

I remember, which I've gotten later, more into, as I got older,

David:

but those were the ones that stood out to me, just the creation myths.

David:

going from Chaos to Gaia, to, to the Titans and all of that, just for

David:

some reason, origin myths stories.

David:

I always like to know where they came from.

David:

And then later on, as they got older and became full-fledged gods, what they did.

David:

and that was a very superficial look in that book.

David:

that was not like an in-depth.

David:

Later on Edith Hamilton's mythology became like a Bible to me and

David:

I have owned multiple copies of that book over the years and

David:

Bulfinch's and all sorts of books.

David:

But I don't know if there's any particular story.

David:

I could open up a book of mythology to any story and lose myself

David:

for however long I have pages.

Boston:

Yeah.

Boston:

To open up the book of mythology and just pick a page and go, and that world,

Boston:

that, that mythic realm, you can just step in there and stay for a while.

Boston:

I think of these gods and goddesses as being real forces

Boston:

in life, not just characters on a page or fictions describing,

Boston:

primitive ways of seeing things.

Boston:

I think of them as being psychological, psychologically relevant.

Boston:

Do you relate to any of the gods or goddesses?

Boston:

Do you see how those archetypes might work and function in your own life?

David:

From early on and I don't know why exactly, Apollo

David:

was a favorite God of mine.

David:

I know he and his sister did not always have the best.

David:

they could be harsh.

David:

With their use of their bow and arrow.

David:

But I, as far as being a god of reason and I got up music and

David:

spending time amongst the muses and, and the God associated with light.

David:

And I don't know if some reason him.

David:

Maybe being a young blonde kid, seeing a young blonde god just maybe think of

David:

that's the one I, as I identified with anyway, and being a reader and one who

David:

appreciated reason and understanding.

David:

And I think for some reason or another, I think that's the one, that's the one

David:

figure who stands out and who became a much stronger figure in my writing,

David:

in the novels I've written he's, he's included in every book, and from that

David:

I've tangentially, appreciated, Artemis and other figures in his life too.

David:

But that, he's the one figure that stands out in my mind is from earlier.

Boston:

Let's talk about the novels you've written.

Boston:

What's the origin story of Task Force Gaea?

David:

The origin story started in high school for some sort of

David:

creative writing project we had to do.

David:

And the teacher gave us carte blanche to do anything.

David:

And I had written it originally with a team of heroes in outer space,

David:

like a star Trek meets Greek myth feel because it would be different.

David:

And I only remember writing the ones.

David:

It was a lengthy story for me, it was a good 20 pages back, but back

David:

in high school, 20 pages to write for a short story, it was quite a bit.

David:

And I remember because star Trek was big on TV for me.

David:

And I remember the outer space thing, and I wanted to be different and

David:

encountering versions of creatures in outer space that you'd see in the books.

David:

And so I wanted to tie it together and that the original team, I can't even

David:

it's been so long was it was a little bit different, but, It evolved over the time.

David:

But I knew I wanted mythology to be a part of it.

David:

And my version of the mythology too, like using the standard figures that

David:

you can encounter, but I wanted to create other monsters, other gods, other

David:

primordial beings, so that it would have more of my touch rather than simply the

David:

originals, which, we all tend to know.

David:

I didn't want to feel like I was being a copy of.

David:

And using that, but because it happens so much, you read any book of adventure

David:

and any creature that comes up, it's oh, that's a version of this Cerberus.

David:

That's a version of a Chimera or something.

David:

I wanted mine to have a flavor of that without it being, I didn't want, the

David:

ghost of Homer or some other figure in ancient history to wag his finger at me

David:

and say, no, no, That's how it started.

David:

And then once the story was written, it sat in a notebook for a very long time.

David:

I didn't have aspirations of writing a novel until much, much later.

David:

but that was where, when I decided that, oh, I want to expand on that story.

David:

Eventually I picked it up again and worked with it until the first

David:

book, which was like 25 years.

Boston:

I was just listening to a Jungian analyst tell this story

Boston:

of starting to draw a picture of when he was a little kid and.

Boston:

he was shamed for the outcome and he put away as crayons and never

Boston:

picked them up again until I think he said it was 50 years later,

Boston:

it was much, much later in life.

Boston:

And he said the same picture came out of him at that point when

Boston:

he, he, and he got, he, it was his wife, I believe who gave him

Boston:

the permission slip to do the creating.

Boston:

And it really struck me that this is a thing that happens to artists and

Boston:

writers and makers of any kind where something gets in us and it just

Boston:

stews and refines and dances around in our psyche until we let it out.

Boston:

And I'm struck by.

Boston:

that 25 year gestation period, something sparked you, it sat, you probably visited

Boston:

it, stepped away and visit it and stepped away, like with much distance until

Boston:

then it like comes out finally formed.

Boston:

and then that led to another book and another.

Boston:

So how many books have you written now?

David:

In that series three are published and one is in

David:

the process of being tweaked.

David:

It's basically done.

David:

I just have to go back through and make some final changes.

David:

After letting it sit for so long, I realized there were aspects

David:

I wasn't really happy with.

David:

And I'm currently waiting for the cover art to manifest itself

David:

from an artist I've looked into.

David:

Then there'll be a fifth for that one.

David:

Yeah.

David:

So I have an end point, but hopefully, some kind of end point, but I'm

David:

not against doing side novels with picking a character out of the book

David:

and doing something with that person or, giving up the characters are not

David:

going to necessarily be laid to rest.

David:

I'd like to continue.

David:

I have another side venture on that as well, which ties into the plot of

David:

my, of one of the books where the gods are mortal and the whole anthology I'm

David:

working on is how a year in the life of each of these gods and they have to

David:

live as a human being for that year.

David:

And, the challenges of being a fully blooded mortal person with

David:

no power, and being in a position in life that they are not.

David:

Accustomed to, where Poseidon is relocated to Kansas and has to live as a farmer

David:

near no water.

David:

And how do you live a life like that for a year?

David:

Not knowing what that's even or, Hermes is a life coach.

David:

Haiti's coach.

David:

I think Hermes is a paraplegic actor.

David:

so Hermes has to get away, get around without the use of his

David:

legs and be a he's an actor.

David:

It's just, there's a whole bunch of storytelling I want to do where I put

David:

the gods as humans in a challenging situation and have them, Hestia

David:

is homeless in London somewhere.

David:

And she has to get around and knowing who they are inside, but not looking the same.

David:

And then having to, adapt for an entire year.

David:

They have no choice.

David:

And how do you, and what do you take away?

David:

And I've alluded to it in the books, I've alluded to the fact that they

David:

have had this journey, even though I haven't finalized that book yet,

David:

I've made comments about they've remember certain qualities or certain

David:

traits that they had to adapt to when they were living that way.

David:

So I've so I want to get that book done as soon as this book is finished before the

David:

fifth one, I think just because I want to, I really want to get that out of my, like

David:

Athena being birthed from Zeus's head.

David:

I want that collection of stories out in the world as well.

Boston:

There's a quality in modern life.

Boston:

people aspiring to be godlike.

Boston:

And one of the things that's so appealing about Greek myth is that gods are

Boston:

not necessarily aspirational figures.

Boston:

They might be.

Boston:

You know the best Weaver, but you don't want to aspire.

Boston:

You certainly don't want to compare yourself to a God.

Boston:

And this idea that the gods would become more whole by having an

Boston:

experience of being human, as opposed to humans becoming more refined

Boston:

by being more god-like, that just strikes me as a wonderful parable and.

Boston:

Because since we are humans, it seems to me that being more human

Boston:

is really the way to go, to be more of what we are instead of trying to

Boston:

get away from it and be some ideal.

Boston:

As you said, Apollo and Artemis, yes, they're extraordinary and outstanding

Boston:

and remarkable and also dangerous.

Boston:

and like all of the gods, the light and shadow side are both very intense.

Boston:

Like humans, but hopefully we're better integrated and we're not flipping from one

Boston:

extreme to the other the way the gods do.

Boston:

We could learn.

Boston:

They can't.

David:

It's funny.

David:

you mentioning this, I'm also working on a collection of short stories and I know

David:

sort of been gestating for awhile where I'm turning this, the transformation

David:

stories kind of like a reverse Ovid where.

David:

One of the first stories was about Actaeon when he was transformed.

David:

My story is.

David:

basically the stag gets away because another hunter steps in to save

David:

him and ultimately he realizes that this is a human been transformed.

David:

And he makes pleased to the gods to look for redemption and eventually

David:

the stag has transformed back into Actaeon and the man and he become close

David:

well closer than friends, but there's something in that story that shows that

David:

there's some redemption, that Actaeon didn't mean to stumble on upon Artemis.

David:

He was taken in by her beauty.

Boston:

Will you tell the story of Actaeon of Artemis and Actaeon to create context?

David:

sure.

David:

Actaeon as a hunter.

David:

And he was traveling with his hunting dogs and he stumbled upon

David:

Artemis and her maidens bathing.

David:

And it was a purely innocent act from what I gathered.

David:

I don't think he was looking for it.

David:

He happened to part the branches and see her there.

David:

And she took such an affront to that, that she splashed water on him.

David:

And he turned into a stag and that his hunting hounds turned on him

David:

and in the myth they devoured him.

David:

And that was one of the ways in which she could be very abrupt.

David:

I don't think it was cruelty.

David:

I think it was just her being who she was a goddess and feeling the sense of you've.

David:

You dare to look at me and that story and my story kind of makes

David:

it so that he becomes human again.

David:

And there's some redemption and I call it a heart's redemption, but H a

David:

R T for that, the other one is, I'm.

David:

I was always fascinated by Perseus and Medusa as a child.

David:

As many people who know the story.

David:

My story is Perseus goes to cat to kill her and instead of doing so before he's

David:

about to chop her head off, asked her, how did you come to be who you are?

David:

And she tells the story, and then they somehow vowed to work together.

David:

And she returns with him to Polydectes and does the thing in the myth

David:

where she turns them all to stone.

David:

And then somehow he again, finds a way to find redemption through Athena.

Boston:

Yeah.

David:

she has really transformed back into this maiden again, but I'm

David:

trying to make it so that it seems plausible and workable that because

David:

we know Poseidon raped Medusa and Athena's shrine, and rather she couldn't

David:

take her vengeance out on Poseidon.

David:

So she took it out on Athena and one of the most striking things I've seen.

David:

What would you say?

David:

Yeah, one of the most striking things I've seen in recent years is, a statue

David:

of Medusa holding Perseus's head..

Boston:

It's stunning.

David:

And I didn't want to do that story cause I figured that kind of has

David:

already been done through the statue, but I wanted to do it where I want to

David:

pick certain stories of transformation based on the gods doing what they

David:

do, and finding redemption somehow.

David:

So that these people actually, through a legitimate means find peace and

David:

the gods themselves can go, oh yeah, that I made a mistake or something.

David:

that's what I've also been ruminating on.

David:

I think part of that redemptive idea for me is through this past year of

David:

teaching through open thing, finding redemption in other ways, too,

David:

in redeeming ourselves in myself.

David:

And, it's been a very difficult year in that, in my profession.

David:

as many people have had.

Boston:

Would you mind saying more about that?

Boston:

The year of redemption, or the, or experiencing redemption

Boston:

through this past year.

Boston:

This COVID time.

David:

I spent almost 30 years in the classroom and we've had to

David:

drastically change what we do with hybrid learning through zoom and

David:

having kids on camera and the same time

David:

we have kids in the classroom.

David:

and I've had students already who struggled with, how do you read a

David:

play when you're all reading parts, when you can't see each other and

David:

do all of these things together, all this stuff we had to deal with.

David:

And I struggled a lot this year.

David:

I ugly cried more in the past school year than I have in the past five

David:

years, just because it was so much of a struggle to put the passionate.

David:

Doing what I love to do, but not being able to do it the way I want to.

David:

And being on the fly, asked to create curriculum that has to

David:

get posted to a virtual place for students to be able to access it.

David:

And we didn't have a year or two to prepare.

David:

It's just here we go.

David:

We're on the hitting the ground running.

David:

I feel like I know myself and I know that I wasn't my best.

David:

I know that there were areas I wish I could have done better on it.

David:

Students in bursts of honesty tell me what they wish I had done differently.

David:

And I take that to heart.

David:

it wasn't done out of malice.

David:

It was done out of, we just wished that you had done these things differently

David:

because we don't feel as if we got the best experience in these circumstances.

David:

And yes, they were hard to hear, but we're human.

David:

And as a human being, I have to find a way to redeem myself next year.

David:

Like I have plans for how I want to deal with things, because

David:

now we have a year of students.

David:

The juniors will be my seniors who spent a year, some of them, at home and won't have

David:

been in the classroom for a whole year.

David:

How do you reacclimate to being in the building?

David:

Will there be masks?

David:

Will there not?

David:

I it's just, it's a very introspective time.

David:

transformation.

David:

And we've talked about that too, in the past, the idea of transforming yourself

David:

and transformation as a whole, becoming someone better and someone stronger

David:

and looking at your flaws and looking at all the weaknesses and using that

David:

as a tool to create and be more than what you were before, which ties of

David:

course, into our Wonder Woman love.

David:

But I think all of that comes from, mythological transformations.

David:

That's all the mythology was for me as a child was watching one thing,

David:

being transformed into another, Gaia transforming nothingness into reality.

David:

Gaia becoming the earth.

David:

All of these things.

David:

Just transformation is like a motif throughout the entirety of know mythology.

Boston:

That's why Ovid called it The Metamorphosis.

Boston:

transformation and to transformation.

Boston:

And that's the message of myth that everything is constantly in

Boston:

motion and becoming something else.

Boston:

It's a message of method.

Boston:

The only constant in life is change, and I would argue that transformation is a

Boston:

conscious act that everything changes, but to transform requires your participation.

David:

It's interesting that you make that connection.

David:

I think change and transformation aren't really exactly the same.

David:

Change happens because circumstances happen and we have to adapt on the fly.

David:

But transformation, I think is a conscious choice to transform yourself.

David:

You have to make deliberate things happen.

David:

Yes, the day changes in tonight and night changes.

David:

into day that's just a part of the natural world.

David:

But to transform takes effort.

David:

It takes that sense of a purpose.

David:

It takes a vision it takes reflection.

David:

You have to look back upon yourself and say, where have I been?

David:

What am I doing?

David:

And what do I need to do in the future?

David:

And some people don't do that.

David:

They just live day to day.

David:

And I think people like yourself and me, we are people who are reflective

David:

and transformative And in some way, whether it's conscious or not, we

David:

look toward myth, the idea of the collective unconscious, or just a

David:

sense of the storytelling of the world has always been collective.

David:

Transformation is in every culture.

David:

Whether it's Egyptian or Greek or Celtic or whichever, there's

David:

always some natural or supernatural transformation that happens.

Boston:

I think there's a mystery in there.

Boston:

A reason that never goes away.

Boston:

our Zeit Geist right now is so methodological and so

Boston:

mechanical and technical.

Boston:

And transformation somehow implies spirit.

Boston:

It somehow implies an unseen force like that something can transform that a new

Boston:

form can take the place of an old form to truly become something different

Boston:

that flies in the face of this cause and effect, back and forth world that

Boston:

it seems like everyone's looking for 10 ways to make your life better.

Boston:

And very rarely does that involve really looking in and reflecting

Boston:

on who you've been, who you are and who you want to become?

Boston:

That series of Wonder Woman in the mid eighties, when George Perez started

Boston:

writing the book, that's when the mythology went really front and center.

Boston:

And that I really saw Wonder Woman as this kind of awesome life coach.

Boston:

one thing that comes up is that what was the standalone book with the Justice

Boston:

League, where she takes out every member of the justice league, she wraps herself.

David:

League of One.

Boston:

League of One.

Boston:

Thank you.

Boston:

So in Justice League of one Wonder Woman wraps herself in her own lasso.

Boston:

And this is part of her regular meditation of constantly being

Boston:

honest with herself and learning to hold her own contradictions and to

Boston:

constantly be renewing her own soul and purifying and looking at the truth.

Boston:

And I absolutely loved.

Boston:

That's the being with the truth of who we are, the warts and all.

Boston:

When was the last time you watched Clash of the Titans?

Boston:

The eighties, the 1981.

David:

Probably not that long ago within the past five or six months.

David:

within recent times,

Boston:

Oh, great.

Boston:

So I rewatched it a couple of months ago also.

Boston:

And first of all, I love it.

Boston:

I will never not love that movie.

Boston:

To Perseus is a deck

David:

Yeah.

Boston:

goes and he steals the eye from these three women like holds their

Boston:

eyeball hostage and then he goes to Medusa at home and chops her head off.

Boston:

That movie, there was no reflectiveness at all.

Boston:

They never, it was just.

Boston:

Always forward.

Boston:

It was very machismo, very masculine, there was no learning involved.

Boston:

He was gifted from the beginning, gets the presence from Zeus and

Boston:

then goes and does some really awful things and then to marry, Andromeda.

Boston:

Who's also just being blown around by the winds of fate.

David:

it's interesting that you bring that up because as a kid.

David:

I wouldn't say I looked up to heroes like Perseus.

David:

I don't think I ever looked at them that way, but I always thought of them as

David:

like in the heroic sense of, I didn't know any differently about Medusa as

David:

far as the pity I would have for her.

David:

Like it didn't, it never dawned on me as a child.

David:

I didn't understand the nuances of what, why Athena did what she did

David:

and and why she couldn't do anything to preside and that kind of thing.

David:

So the idea of Perseus slaying a monster, we always view her as a monster.

Boston:

she's ugly.

Boston:

Yeah.

David:

Yeah.

David:

and some people have tried to even say, if Thena actually empowered

David:

her, because they give her the power to turn men to stone and anyone who

David:

would look at her or try to harm her.

David:

And I get that it is an empowerment, but the way she's been portrayed

David:

in storytelling is more of a regressed, monstrous figure,

David:

not an intellectual woman who.

David:

I could walk around of her own free will and engage, and then use that only as

David:

needed, rather than just this moment, you look at her bam, you're turning to stone.

David:

I find that looking back on the mythology, and I think we recently touched upon this.

David:

I don't know if I think it was through Twitter, the myths, the great

David:

Greek myth series on Netflix or.

Boston:

It's on Amazon prime, The Great Greek Myths.

David:

And I really enjoyed that version of things like listening to the stories

David:

and some things I thought were definitely different from the way I remembered them.

David:

But of course, mythology has variety of origins, depending

David:

on who's telling the story.

Boston:

It's also French and there are certain cultural norms that

Boston:

the French version like translation of things was holding on to.

David:

There are certain things about that and just watching the stories unfold.

David:

It is very patriarchal.

David:

Zeus is the center of that universe for them and all of them

David:

male figures act accordingly.

David:

Whereas the women, the goddesses do plenty as well.

David:

Hara she's got her own power, but it's always Zeus and his prowess,

David:

as I had done with my students, I call it his magic Thunderbolt.

David:

That's what he taught everybody with and they're somehow impregnated.

David:

And that's why I take such offense to.

David:

Going back to the comics when Wonder Woman was made her daughter.

David:

it wasn't just the change of the story.

David:

It was an entire switch of patriarchal influence where

David:

she never ever had that before.

David:

And.

David:

That's why I loved her so much.

David:

Cause it was a matriarchal thing.

David:

I am more into what Gaia did or what the goddess is done.

David:

Even when Artemis transforms Actaeon, The power of women has always been looked upon

David:

as dark in some ways as it's a negative.

David:

Oh, she's just acting out because she's a woman.

David:

Whereas the men do it and they're being men, they're being it's elevated.

David:

And I think that's where mythology for me is I can look at the myths and

David:

understand them and take from them.

David:

But like in my books, when I have empowered characters, the

David:

female characters in my books are tremendously empowered.

David:

Even though they go up against mythological whatevers, the male

David:

heroes in the book, don't overshare.

David:

The women at all, they actually really work with they, they encourage, they

David:

learn from as it's supposed to be.

David:

it's not just, I don't want to just be so pro-feminist that every female

David:

character has to be above every man, but there has to be an equal footing there.

David:

And I think that's what mythology taught me, looking at that.

David:

What I thought was so impressive as a child and it was magic.

David:

It was magic, seeing things, transforming to other things or

David:

seeing the gods do what they do.

David:

But then realizing as an adult that yeah, that the Greek culture was very different

David:

than I realized it was as a child.

David:

And the same thing was true with every other culture that has mythology to it,

David:

including Christianity, Judaism, Islam.

David:

There's a certain storytelling that goes along with it.

David:

And it's the largely grossly patriarchal and, oppressive and abusive.

David:

And not many people like to see that because it takes away what they

David:

believe to be part of who they are.

David:

And it challenges them.

David:

I like that though.

David:

I like being challenged.

David:

I like being on the outside.

David:

I like being on fringe.

David:

That's where I'm happiest.

David:

I like being one of the weird, because then I know I have a place.

David:

but yeah, I don't know.

David:

It's this mythic, this idea of this mythic conversation to me is when

David:

I talk about this to my kids, I do an entire unit, basically from the

David:

birth of the universe through the Trojan war to get to a particular

David:

poem by Yeats about Leto and the Swan.

Boston:

Yes.

David:

But I do this entire storytelling to get them every time I talk

David:

about a god, I tell a story or two, and it's all about storytelling.

David:

And I get to the place where, that leads into the Trojan war and

David:

what happens with Agamemnon and Menelaus and all of this stuff.

David:

The versions of myth, and the kids are just wide-eyed they go,

David:

how do you know all that?

David:

I said, I've been teaching it forever, but it's one of my passions.

David:

It's storytelling.

David:

We talk about transformation and we go into a whole side conversation about

David:

that too, I surround myself with magic because that's what triggers my creativity

David:

like drinking from the fountain.

David:

that the muses are inspired by, I w I want to have, I wish Pegasus would fly by.

David:

I could put wings on my dog and just let him run around.

David:

I named my dog after Odysseus's dog because that was an important

David:

figure in my storytelling.

Boston:

All of my devices have mythological names, hard

Boston:

drives computers, phones.

Boston:

I also, there's something that triggers my imagination and triggering my

Boston:

imagination triggers a sense of mystery.

Boston:

And a sense of meaning.

Boston:

I just taught a course called creating with the gods and we were, it was

Boston:

a coaching program where we use the months of the year as a framework.

Boston:

So you've got the gods for whom the months are named.

Boston:

So Janus, Februus, Mars, Aphrodite, Maia, and Juno, and it was so much fun

Boston:

because the game really became where our myths embedded into our language.

Boston:

We're having these images fed to us all the time.

Boston:

And the more you know about the stories, the more a single word can activate

Boston:

a whole way of seeing the world.

Boston:

It can all be magical, naming your dog Argo.

Boston:

Yes, myth is magical, but myth isn't magic.

Boston:

It's where fantasy is used to communicate something very real, very true.

Boston:

That doesn't actually fit into the world of facts.

Boston:

At least that's how I see it.

David:

I've watched the great myths series and the last two seasons where the Trojan

David:

War, and then of course Odysseus's return.

David:

And I've always loved The Iliad and The Odyssey and even The Aeneid,

David:

which doesn't wasn't touched on.

David:

But I love those stories because, and there's much to learn from that.

David:

Even though Odysseus is also a Dick, he sleeps with all these other goddesses

David:

and yet he wants to go home to his wife.

David:

it's a very different way of looking at things.

David:

Just the things that the trials and tribulations of humanity against

David:

greater obstacles, and they choose to be empowered by themselves.

David:

And the idea that at least to put it, they put it out in the series, was that

David:

Odysseus was moving toward abandoning the gods, was more about himself and being a

David:

human being and the gods felt threatened by that idea, which makes a lot of sense.

Boston:

I thought that was a pretty inspired take on it.

Boston:

I liked that a lot and I've never heard that before.

David:

Yeah.

David:

Me either.

David:

And I wonder if that's, because you said it was inspired by this French series.

David:

I wonder if it was a European version of events that they

David:

had taken from something else.

David:

And I didn't look at the source material, I don't know, but

David:

looking back on the story.

David:

And even that really bad home, I don't think it was a Hallmark movie, but

David:

it was a movie with Armando Santiago.

David:

He played Odysseus and Isabella Rosalini played Athena and it was a fun movie,

David:

but it was very much the same idea that Odysseus wanted nothing from the gods.

David:

And the gods kept saying, we control you, but he's no, not really.

David:

I think that for me, As more spiritual in my life and I am superbly religious.

David:

Now, I feel like I'm more a control.

David:

I take inspiration from other sources, but I don't find myself betrothed to them.

David:

And I want to live my own life and not look to a book of texts,

David:

whether it's the Torah or whatever to say, this is how I must live.

David:

I think I understand Odysseus journey.

David:

You want to do your own thing?

David:

You want to be your own person and not be beholden to powers greater

David:

than you are, or have people say, no, your wisdom actually came from

David:

me as a goddess of wisdom where he's saying, no, I think my willingness

David:

and my cunning is really my own.

David:

that, that sense of owning who you are and owning your own power is incredibly

David:

for lack of a better word, empowering.

David:

It's just, it's powerful to say that idea of loving who you are

David:

for all your gifts and using them.

Boston:

When you were growing up, what were some of your favorite stories?

Boston:

nursery rhymes, children's books, movies, cartoons, comics, TV.

David:

The ones that stick with me the most were ones

David:

that have a fantasy and magic.

David:

whether I've been King Arthur or just, magical things that were beyond the normal

David:

mythological magical stories of all types.

Boston:

Do you remember one of the first that caught your attention?

David:

Wow.

David:

Making me think back way far.

David:

I think the earliest memories I have are like first storyline stories

David:

like that are sitting in my public library, reading a book of mythology.

David:

And that was the one thing that stands out, not maybe

David:

one particular myth, but just.

David:

Stands out to me the most.

David:

And that, that kindled the fire.

Boston:

Thank you.

Boston:

What's something that you believe to be true that you cannot

Boston:

prove, or that cannot be proven.

David:

I don't know if it can't be proven or not.

David:

I'm unsure on this one, but I think that true compassion for others can

David:

do more than anything else in the world, more than money, more than

David:

anything, compassion has the most power.

David:

And yet it is the most underutilized.

Boston:

That's beautiful.

Boston:

In what ways are you the same now as you were when you were a little kid?

David:

I'm still in love with comic books and escape and fantasy more.

David:

Now, if not, then, then I didn't know any better.

David:

That was all new to me.

David:

Now I embrace it more as a.

David:

And the transformative part of my life.

David:

But yeah, it's, I'm the same in that way.

David:

I cosplay, I dress up as other characters.

David:

Not many people will admit to that without a sense of shame.

David:

sometimes they will go, I do this for Halloween, but no, I

David:

have pictures of my cosplay.

David:

My phone has a picture of my cosplay

David:

So yeah, that's how I am the same now, as I was then.

Boston:

Have you ever encountered a phenomenon that you just can't explain?

David:

Wow, what an open-ended question.

David:

oh, wow.

David:

My fear is that it's going to come back to something nature-based or

David:

something and in, in the truest sense of that, but there's a certain sense of.

David:

I don't call it.

David:

Pleasure, maybe pleasure, euphoria being out in the natural

David:

world, that transcends reality.

David:

And in a sense, it just, there's something about being a part of it all.

David:

I am not better than worse than I am more equal to those things around me.

David:

There's a tree there's grass, there's a lake there's me, but it's

David:

just, I feel like I'm that one.

David:

Yeah, I dunno how else to describe it, but I enjoy standing outside and

David:

taking in nature in that euphoric sense.

David:

Like I'm a part of the natural world, just as much as anything else.

David:

If I don't know if that truly answers your question, but that's

David:

what pops in my head when you asked.

Boston:

That does sound phenomenal.

Boston:

And perhaps the answer is the same, but the next question is when in your

Boston:

life have you experienced ecstasy?.

David:

Multiple times, I think ecstasy for me comes from when I experienced

David:

the truest sense of joy and love.

David:

Whether it's with other people, whether I'm alone out in the world.

David:

there's a certain feeling that, ecstasies or some can be considered sexual.

David:

It could be other things.

David:

It could be religious for me.

David:

It's not so much religious, but it's when I experienced love in some form

David:

or another, I feel a sense of ecstasy.

David:

There's it's an empowerment.

Boston:

I hear love and compassion and transformation as these three core

Boston:

values in you that are really infusing your work and your life and what it

Boston:

is to be a teacher and an artist, cos player, as we come to the end of our

Boston:

time together, is there anything you want to bring to the conversation?

Boston:

Something we haven't hit on something that's really alive for you right now.

David:

I feel like I'm at a crossroads of my life for some reason or another.

David:

I can't.

David:

and every time I think about that, again, going back to mythology, I

David:

think a pack of tea and the goddess of the crossroads and opportunities.

David:

And I'm looking to find some sort of magic or other worldly inspiration to bring me

David:

across the other side of that intersection and put me on that path somewhere.

David:

Again, that's as I'm sure you understand mythology, it's not an

David:

overt religious experience per se, like the ancient Greeks had, but it's

David:

an embodiment of the intangible things of the things in the world that we

David:

embrace are mythical and magical.

David:

I feel like I'm looking towards something coming that I don't know yet what it is,

David:

but I know that I'm at that crossroads and I need to be respectful to myself

David:

and others for that I need to pay homage.

David:

I need to, I don't worship Hecate but I feel like I need to respect the world

David:

and in all of its energy in order to move me forward and get me to where I need.

Boston:

Such an interesting place to be in life.

Boston:

I feel like we're there collectively, at the end of this long Dar

Boston:

year, that has lasted a century.

Boston:

So many of us are questioning future paths and that sense of crossroads and

Boston:

you and I are both kind of midlife.

Boston:

And so we're also at that point of, okay, we've done and we've succeeded where we've

Boston:

succeeded and we failed where we failed and there's this other half of life ahead.

Boston:

What's that going to look like?

Boston:

Hecate is a really wonderful one to bring into that too.

Boston:

She's the goddess of the crossroad.

Boston:

She's also a goddess of willpower.

Boston:

I think being curious and open to the force of Hecate is a really

Boston:

potent, powerful place to be.

Boston:

It's too bad.

Boston:

She's got such a bad rap because of the Christian association with witchcraft

Boston:

and such, but she's a powerful figure and a connection to the subconscious.

Boston:

She's one of the ones who could move between the underworld and the earth.

David:

Well, she was, I think from a certain stories have told she was the

David:

ruler of the underworld perfor Hades.

Boston:

Oh, I haven't read that story.

David:

I had a few times, she's also a part of that triad of

David:

Hecate, Demeter, and Persephone.

David:

It's the triple goddess figure.

David:

And it's also a transformation.

David:

At a crossroads, it's a place to transform your journey.

David:

so there's all sorts of things and we could spend hours discussing this.

David:

I don't get many people who understand and appreciate the mythic like you do.

David:

You're the first, if anyone ever asked me, who's someone you would talk to

David:

about mythology in general, the first person would be you because I've known

David:

that about you for such a long time.

David:

So that's one of the aspects of you that I think I admire is that you embrace that.

Boston:

Oh, I'm honored.

Boston:

Thank you.

Boston:

it's it is the love of my life and this is a niche conversation.

Boston:

And I am finding that there are people who love it and who want to have it.

Boston:

And because it is so obscure, you talk to somebody at a party about

Boston:

this and their eyes just glaze over and what is wrong with you?

Boston:

But then you find somebody, you say Hecate and their eyes

Boston:

light up like, oh, Who's that?

Boston:

That's what this podcast is about.

Boston:

Like, how do I find, where are, where are they?

Boston:

Where are our people that we can really have this

Boston:

conversation and go deep into it.

Boston:

if people want to find you online or read your books, where can they go?

David:

the books are on Amazon.

David:

If you look up David burger Task Force, Gaea Gaea spelt with an E.

David:

You can find me on Twitter is @mrdberger and Instagram is inspired Gemini.

Boston:

That's today's show.

Boston:

Thank you again, David Berger for being on the podcast, for being one of

Boston:

the first interviews that I ever did.

Boston:

And thank you to our listeners.

Boston:

I'm so glad you're here.

Boston:

Like I said at the beginning of the episode, I'm about to start a series

Boston:

of Zoom sessions where we can talk about the intersection of mythology and

Boston:

personal development and pop culture.

Boston:

You can find more information about that at my website,

Boston:

bostonblake.com or mythic podcast.com.

Boston:

You'll want to subscribe to the newsletter.

Boston:

That's where I'll release updates and more information and topics that we'll discuss.

Boston:

mythic podcast.com is also where you can find more episodes,

Boston:

more information about the show.

Boston:

If you are enjoying the podcast, I hope you will consider leaving us some stars

Boston:

wherever you get your podcasts and consider sharing it with your friends.

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