Episode 10 — Like, So Dramatic

Podcast: The Judgmental Podcast with Hugh & Christine

Theme: Judicial accountability, courtroom drama, and the politics of family court.

Episode Overview

In this candid conversation, Hugh and Christine pull back the curtain on the Louisville legal scene — from judges mentioning them in court to attorneys using TikTok posts as courtroom ammunition. They dissect recent courtroom encounters, questionable judicial rulings, and how strategy can make or break a case. The duo also reacts to viral courtroom clips, calls out systemic flaws, and examines the influence of money on court-ordered programs.

Key Topics & Segments

•          When TikToks Make It Into the Court Record

o          Christine shares stories of being name-dropped by judges, parenting coordinators, and

attorneys during active cases.

o          How social media comments get twisted into legal leverage.

•          The Alison Russell Controversy

o          Accusations linking Judgey.com to Project 2025.

o          Political labeling as a tactic to divide and discredit.

•          Inside the Louisville Courthouse

o          Positive feedback from attorneys and court staff versus calculated backlash.

o          The surprising neutrality of Judgy despite local assumptions.

•          Viral

Courtroom Clip Breakdown

o          A probation revocation hearing turns tense as a judge lectures a defense attorney.

o          Discussion of judicial demeanor, gender dynamics, and strategic advocacy in court.

•          Judge Jessica Stone’s Facebook Post

o          Why labeling critics “cartoons and media” misses the point.

o          Concerns about fundamental gaps in legal understanding on the bench.

•          When Judges Don’t Understand Business Income

o          Misinterpretations of gross vs. net income in high-asset divorces.

o          How this lack of financial literacy affects child support and maintenance rulings.

•          The Receivership Case That Went Nowhere

o          A cautionary tale about marital business assets being destroyed because a judge didn’t act.

•          Court-Ordered Programs & the Money Trail

o          Families in

Transition, Batterers Intervention, and DUI programs: do they work or just generate revenue?

o          The parallels to the troubled teen industry and privatized incarceration.

Key Takeaways

•          Public criticism of judges often provokes defensive — and sometimes revealing —

responses.

•          Courtroom strategy is as important as legal knowledge, especially when judges are

inconsistent in enforcing rules.

•          Political and financial interests can shape court-ordered programs more than actual

outcomes for families.

•          Transparency, education, and genuine accountability are essential to repairing trust in the judicial system.

Perfect For Listeners Who

•          Are passionate about judicial reform and court transparency.

•          Want to understand the behind-the-scenes realities of practicing law.

•          Follow true courtroom drama and legal commentary.

•          Enjoy candid, unfiltered takes from experienced attorneys.

Episode Links & Resources

•          Judgy.com – Platform for reviewing judges

•          Follow Christine on TikTok & Instagram: @KentuckyChristine

•          Subscribe on: YouTube, Spotify, Apple Podcasts, iHeartRadio

You are listening to

The Judgemental Podcast.

2

00:00:03,210 --> 00:00:06,720

We're Hugh and Christine, the Minds

Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

3

00:00:06,720 --> 00:00:08,700

that empowers you to judge the judges.

4

00:00:08,970 --> 00:00:12,870

It's pastime for judicial accountability

and transparency within the courts.

5

00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:16,770

Prepare for sharp insights, candid

critiques, and unshakable honesty from

6

00:00:16,770 --> 00:00:18,600

two lawyers determined to save the system.

7

00:00:18,810 --> 00:00:19,740

We need some justice.

8

00:00:19,745 --> 00:00:21,600

Justice, my fine justice.

9

00:00:21,600 --> 00:00:22,980

And I wanna ring, be in public.

10

00:00:23,370 --> 00:00:25,605

I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

11

00:00:25,675 --> 00:00:25,965

Yeah.

12

00:00:28,035 --> 00:00:28,635

Christine: All right.

13

00:00:28,635 --> 00:00:30,465

Welcome to the Judgmental Podcast.

14

00:00:30,465 --> 00:00:35,085

We're gonna start off today talking about

how many times we have been mentioned

15

00:00:35,085 --> 00:00:37,485

by the local Louisville litigators.

16

00:00:37,755 --> 00:00:43,755

Actually, one judge did a Facebook post

about us calling us cartoons and media.

17

00:00:44,065 --> 00:00:48,265

But to back up just a little bit, I

started this, my goodness, I think it's

18

00:00:48,265 --> 00:00:53,425

almost been a year and a half, but my

tiktoks, I'm at @KentuckyChristine have

19

00:00:53,425 --> 00:00:58,165

been used as a part of the court record

on at least two or three occasions,

20

00:00:58,165 --> 00:00:59,245

and I've been mentioned by name.

21

00:00:59,245 --> 00:00:59,845

Did you know that?

22

00:00:59,925 --> 00:01:00,047

Hugh: No.

23

00:01:01,322 --> 00:01:04,262

I mean, I, I heard I've, I've heard

about one or two of the instances,

24

00:01:04,262 --> 00:01:05,792

but I didn't know that many times.

25

00:01:05,942 --> 00:01:06,301

Yeah.

26

00:01:06,301 --> 00:01:07,682

So when in pleadings Oh.

27

00:01:07,682 --> 00:01:09,752

Or are spoken about on the record?

28

00:01:09,752 --> 00:01:11,372

Recorded in cases

29

00:01:11,566 --> 00:01:12,795

Christine: d all of the above.

30

00:01:12,976 --> 00:01:13,636

Hugh: Wow.

31

00:01:13,876 --> 00:01:17,956

Christine: So, yeah, when I first started,

I had a follower that asked a question,

32

00:01:17,956 --> 00:01:21,886

and this was a Bullitt county attorney,

Carrie Risin, I, what's her last name?

33

00:01:22,291 --> 00:01:22,531

Oh,

34

00:01:22,581 --> 00:01:22,721

Hugh: Ritsert.

35

00:01:22,721 --> 00:01:22,971

Ritsert,

36

00:01:23,211 --> 00:01:23,481

Christine: Yeah.

37

00:01:23,486 --> 00:01:23,566

Mm-hmm.

38

00:01:23,751 --> 00:01:26,301

She made it a part of an

exhibit on a pleading.

39

00:01:26,301 --> 00:01:26,331

Oh,

40

00:01:26,431 --> 00:01:30,751

and then we, of course, we had

Elizabeth Jenkins, who was a parenting

41

00:01:30,751 --> 00:01:35,781

coordinator who mentioned me on the

record and was like your Honor, in front

42

00:01:35,781 --> 00:01:39,801

of Christian Ward, your Honor, this

pro se litigant that she's an hourly

43

00:01:39,801 --> 00:01:42,831

parenting coordinator on contacted Ms.

44

00:01:42,831 --> 00:01:43,851

Christina Miller.

45

00:01:44,451 --> 00:01:45,531

And I was like, yeah.

46

00:01:46,401 --> 00:01:47,661

And the judge was like, Hmm.

47

00:01:48,291 --> 00:01:52,701

So just the notion to utilize me,

she'd asked like a very benign comment,

48

00:01:52,701 --> 00:01:56,001

just like a very benign question, kind

of just like, what is the procedure

49

00:01:56,001 --> 00:01:57,291

about FOCs or GS or something?

50

00:01:57,291 --> 00:01:57,381

Well

51

00:01:57,493 --> 00:01:57,763

Well ask

52

00:01:57,763 --> 00:01:58,633

Hugh: it publicly.

53

00:01:58,633 --> 00:02:02,053

Or she talked to you privately

and then told the told.

54

00:02:02,773 --> 00:02:02,907

Christine: She

55

00:02:02,946 --> 00:02:03,786

didn't call me attorney.

56

00:02:03,786 --> 00:02:04,026

No.

57

00:02:04,026 --> 00:02:08,076

She said she'd called me and it's like,

I don't, you can't call people on TikTok.

58

00:02:08,256 --> 00:02:11,616

She had commented on one of

my posts talking about these

59

00:02:11,616 --> 00:02:13,986

third party appointments that

obviously everyone knows.

60

00:02:13,986 --> 00:02:14,076

And

61

00:02:14,113 --> 00:02:14,128

And so

62

00:02:14,128 --> 00:02:15,433

Hugh: this attorney saw

it and mentioned it.

63

00:02:15,643 --> 00:02:16,033

Christine: Yep.

64

00:02:16,603 --> 00:02:20,173

And mentioned it to get an advantage to

be like, oh, she's talking to Christine.

65

00:02:20,443 --> 00:02:21,013

Hugh: Christina.

66

00:02:21,253 --> 00:02:21,678

Christine: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

67

00:02:21,913 --> 00:02:22,333

Hugh: Christina.

68

00:02:22,519 --> 00:02:25,176

Christine: And I'll tell you,

Elizabeth Jenkins and I have history.

69

00:02:25,176 --> 00:02:27,216

I was like, when it happened,

I did a TikTok on it.

70

00:02:27,466 --> 00:02:29,986

I had not spoken to her

in probably a year now.

71

00:02:29,986 --> 00:02:33,226

Of course, I texted her after and

she's like, I don't want any problems.

72

00:02:33,226 --> 00:02:34,366

I don't want any problems.

73

00:02:34,366 --> 00:02:37,186

And it was just like, well,

that's the whole thing.

74

00:02:37,276 --> 00:02:41,346

And that goes into the other

attorney that mentioned us by name.

75

00:02:41,406 --> 00:02:42,996

Remember that happened last week?

76

00:02:43,176 --> 00:02:44,076

I did a post on it, Ms.

77

00:02:44,076 --> 00:02:44,766

Allison Russell.

78

00:02:45,096 --> 00:02:46,326

But that just goes, don't remember

79

00:02:46,326 --> 00:02:47,046

Hugh: anything about it.

80

00:02:47,286 --> 00:02:47,826

Christine: Oh, really?

81

00:02:47,856 --> 00:02:48,066

No, I'm

82

00:02:48,066 --> 00:02:48,276

Hugh: kidding.

83

00:02:48,426 --> 00:02:48,966

Christine: Oh my gosh.

84

00:02:48,966 --> 00:02:52,476

This one is like so dramatic

in so many different ways.

85

00:02:52,686 --> 00:02:59,166

But it just goes to show how attorneys

will utilize anyone questioning the system

86

00:02:59,346 --> 00:03:02,446

as a means to , get an advantage in court.

87

00:03:02,476 --> 00:03:03,106

Do you know what I'm saying?

88

00:03:03,413 --> 00:03:03,593

Hugh: Yeah.

89

00:03:03,598 --> 00:03:06,053

I mean, it's, I was a

little bit shocked by it.

90

00:03:06,113 --> 00:03:06,533

Yeah.

91

00:03:06,533 --> 00:03:06,738

But yeah,

92

00:03:07,223 --> 00:03:10,527

Christine: and then we had Jim Murphy,

the GAL we've talked about that apparently

93

00:03:10,666 --> 00:03:14,686

allegedly went up to a pro se litigator

and said that I was dangerous.

94

00:03:14,686 --> 00:03:19,306

And this pro se litigator put that

in the record, which this is a person

95

00:03:19,306 --> 00:03:20,806

fighting about their child or children.

96

00:03:20,806 --> 00:03:23,926

Again, I don't know these, like

I don't represent these people.

97

00:03:23,926 --> 00:03:28,126

I literally make tiktoks and talk

about, Hey, you need to look into

98

00:03:28,126 --> 00:03:29,506

who's donating to your judge.

99

00:03:29,536 --> 00:03:33,826

You need to be careful when you get

an FOC or GAL or parenting coordinator

100

00:03:33,826 --> 00:03:36,166

appointment because it could cost

you tens of thousands of dollars.

101

00:03:36,166 --> 00:03:39,436

And oftentimes here in Louisville, we

have problems with meeting with the kids.

102

00:03:39,961 --> 00:03:40,141

Hugh: Yeah.

103

00:03:40,831 --> 00:03:42,361

Christine: And I don't

think that's a radical.

104

00:03:42,659 --> 00:03:45,008

Hugh: So to be clear though, you

never actually talked to any of

105

00:03:45,008 --> 00:03:50,828

these people that allegedly had, had

dealings with you or had posted to

106

00:03:50,828 --> 00:03:52,658

you or commented on your tiktoks?

107

00:03:53,071 --> 00:03:56,551

Christine: Well, I don't wanna ever like

for sure say my sources, but no, for when

108

00:03:56,551 --> 00:04:01,511

that happened, I'd had a person comment

on my TikTok and I did a response to it.

109

00:04:01,841 --> 00:04:05,261

And I don't think, I mean, certainly

I don't give out my cell phone.

110

00:04:05,261 --> 00:04:07,331

Like you, I have some

people that I talk to.

111

00:04:07,331 --> 00:04:12,331

I have sources and things like that,

but if , I get messages, oh my goodness.

112

00:04:12,331 --> 00:04:13,291

I'd spend all day on the phone.

113

00:04:13,291 --> 00:04:14,068

We'd never work.

114

00:04:14,258 --> 00:04:15,938

Hugh: No, I, I, I understand.

115

00:04:15,998 --> 00:04:16,298

Christine: Yeah.

116

00:04:16,298 --> 00:04:16,898

And I did have

117

00:04:16,942 --> 00:04:19,711

somebody come up to me in court and be

like, I'm a huge fan of yours and what

118

00:04:19,711 --> 00:04:23,661

you're doing, but I just think , it's

the notion that they're utilizing

119

00:04:23,661 --> 00:04:27,641

me or judgey to say negative things.

120

00:04:27,641 --> 00:04:28,691

Isn't it so shocking?

121

00:04:29,957 --> 00:04:33,198

Hugh: I expected there to be a lot

more backlash, really, to be honest.

122

00:04:33,198 --> 00:04:33,408

Yeah.

123

00:04:33,408 --> 00:04:35,658

I mean, when we go down.

124

00:04:36,543 --> 00:04:39,723

Around the courthouse, we

run into people and it's just

125

00:04:39,723 --> 00:04:41,433

been overwhelmingly positive.

126

00:04:41,463 --> 00:04:41,553

Mm-hmm.

127

00:04:41,823 --> 00:04:46,173

And how many, how many people have reached

out and said, well, when I finished this

128

00:04:46,173 --> 00:04:49,683

or that case, you know, maybe we can talk,

I'd like to, like to come on and talk with

129

00:04:49,683 --> 00:04:53,853

you guys and how many people say thank you

for saying what we all wish we could say.

130

00:04:53,913 --> 00:04:54,243

July 29 Cam HW: Yep.

131

00:04:54,288 --> 00:04:54,508

Yep.

132

00:04:54,513 --> 00:04:54,963

And

133

00:04:54,963 --> 00:04:59,253

Hugh: we, you know, this is what

we all talk about in, in groups

134

00:04:59,253 --> 00:05:02,223

and in chats and, you know, when

we're having beers together.

135

00:05:02,223 --> 00:05:04,293

But no one can come out and say it.

136

00:05:04,293 --> 00:05:04,833

Thank you.

137

00:05:05,163 --> 00:05:07,053

And I was really expecting that.

138

00:05:07,923 --> 00:05:12,843

I mean, when you, when you buck any

system, the system usually fights back.

139

00:05:13,143 --> 00:05:17,463

Pretty hard and I'm, I'm happy that almost

everything has been positive so far.

140

00:05:17,591 --> 00:05:17,831

Christine: Oh yeah.

141

00:05:17,831 --> 00:05:19,061

I think the lawyers are sick of it.

142

00:05:19,091 --> 00:05:22,801

I mean, I think most of the, I talk to a

lot of lawyers but most people that are

143

00:05:22,801 --> 00:05:27,421

saying anything negative or mentioning

us in pleadings are attaching tiktoks

144

00:05:27,421 --> 00:05:31,561

as exhibits, which in and of itself is

just a stupid sentence to say out loud.

145

00:05:31,621 --> 00:05:35,131

Most of the time they're court appointed

attorneys that are getting, you know,

146

00:05:35,131 --> 00:05:39,451

appointments for GALs FOCs, parenting

coordinators, mediators, other than

147

00:05:39,451 --> 00:05:41,261

our little Bullock County baby doll.

148

00:05:41,561 --> 00:05:43,421

But again, we appreciate it.

149

00:05:43,421 --> 00:05:45,671

Carrie, I will send you this link.

150

00:05:47,171 --> 00:05:49,271

And so, Allison Russell,

let's talk about this.

151

00:05:49,271 --> 00:05:51,971

'cause I do think this one maybe

upset you a little bit, not upset you.

152

00:05:51,971 --> 00:05:52,991

What's the right way to say it?

153

00:05:54,123 --> 00:05:55,353

Hugh: I don't, I don't know.

154

00:05:55,413 --> 00:05:56,463

I didn't have that take on it.

155

00:05:56,463 --> 00:05:58,173

I was, I was just a little surprised.

156

00:05:58,233 --> 00:06:00,723

Yeah, I was, I was surprised.

157

00:06:00,778 --> 00:06:04,498

Just by the nature of the comment,

and it made me feel old because I had

158

00:06:04,498 --> 00:06:06,058

to ask you to translate the emojis.

159

00:06:06,216 --> 00:06:07,056

Christine: LOL Oh my gosh.

160

00:06:07,056 --> 00:06:07,716

There was an eye roll.

161

00:06:07,771 --> 00:06:08,101

. Emoji.

162

00:06:08,131 --> 00:06:08,431

I thought

163

00:06:08,431 --> 00:06:09,061

Hugh: that's what it was.

164

00:06:09,061 --> 00:06:13,401

But I had to check before I, I I reserve

judgment on the, the post until you

165

00:06:13,401 --> 00:06:14,871

confirmed that that was an eye roll.

166

00:06:15,141 --> 00:06:16,341

Christine: Well, and it's

just one of those things.

167

00:06:16,341 --> 00:06:20,541

And Alison Russell is a court

appointed GAL in cases, and she

168

00:06:20,541 --> 00:06:22,161

does a lot of appellate part work.

169

00:06:22,161 --> 00:06:26,511

She's run for judge before,

but she made this assumption or

170

00:06:26,511 --> 00:06:29,901

allegation that judgey judge y.com

171

00:06:29,901 --> 00:06:32,451

is somehow associated with Project 2025.

172

00:06:32,451 --> 00:06:32,631

That

173

00:06:32,650 --> 00:06:33,373

Hugh: did upset me.

174

00:06:33,403 --> 00:06:33,463

Yeah.

175

00:06:33,463 --> 00:06:38,173

Only because of, yeah, I to be

mentioned in the same paragraph as

176

00:06:38,173 --> 00:06:41,883

project 2025 was, extremely annoying.

177

00:06:41,883 --> 00:06:42,573

I will say that.

178

00:06:42,815 --> 00:06:43,646

Christine: And it's absurd.

179

00:06:43,676 --> 00:06:44,936

And she knows it's absurd.

180

00:06:44,966 --> 00:06:46,856

And I went on TikTok and

said, this is absurd.

181

00:06:46,856 --> 00:06:48,266

You know, it's absurd.

182

00:06:48,266 --> 00:06:50,006

We welcomed her on the podcast.

183

00:06:50,006 --> 00:06:50,096

Sure.

184

00:06:50,306 --> 00:06:52,136

Sent her a really nice message.

185

00:06:52,136 --> 00:06:53,516

We'll talk about anything you want.

186

00:06:53,516 --> 00:06:55,046

It'll be a civil conversation.

187

00:06:55,406 --> 00:06:57,416

But I do think it's weird.

188

00:06:57,416 --> 00:06:59,066

So I notice this.

189

00:06:59,066 --> 00:07:03,866

And now just to be clear, judgy is

very separate from me and you, right?

190

00:07:03,866 --> 00:07:03,867

Yes.

191

00:07:04,556 --> 00:07:06,146

And judgy is neutral.

192

00:07:06,146 --> 00:07:09,056

We are creating judgy to judge

the judges like we wear the

193

00:07:09,056 --> 00:07:10,766

merch, like judgy think you want.

194

00:07:11,066 --> 00:07:14,456

But it's not the notion, like

what I think about judges is

195

00:07:14,456 --> 00:07:15,656

not what judges is gonna think.

196

00:07:15,661 --> 00:07:15,801

Hugh: No.

197

00:07:16,046 --> 00:07:18,116

Christine: You know, and what I think

about judges, you may not agree with

198

00:07:18,167 --> 00:07:18,243

Hugh: me.

199

00:07:18,303 --> 00:07:19,743

No, we don't agree on a lot of things.

200

00:07:19,828 --> 00:07:20,246

Christine: Right.

201

00:07:20,466 --> 00:07:24,576

But we certainly aren't politically

aligned in any sort of radical right

202

00:07:24,576 --> 00:07:26,946

wing or radical left wing, anything.

203

00:07:27,006 --> 00:07:29,496

I mean, the notion to

try to lump us into that.

204

00:07:29,896 --> 00:07:34,906

Is to divide us and to make us

divisive and to make us controversial

205

00:07:34,906 --> 00:07:37,126

and to keep y'all from listening

'cause they think you're stupid.

206

00:07:37,186 --> 00:07:43,046

They think that the general public is

going to do whatever the local Louisville

207

00:07:43,046 --> 00:07:46,016

lawyers that get appointed and what

the local Louisville judges want.

208

00:07:46,247 --> 00:07:46,498

Hugh: Sure.

209

00:07:46,498 --> 00:07:50,008

I mean, one of the things that was

most frustrating with me and my

210

00:07:50,008 --> 00:07:56,403

practice was the way that the court

appointed, I wanna say system, it's,

211

00:07:56,403 --> 00:07:59,433

it's attorneys and other individuals

that are part of court appointed.

212

00:07:59,703 --> 00:08:01,803

They referred to it as the way we do it.

213

00:08:01,803 --> 00:08:01,863

Yeah.

214

00:08:01,863 --> 00:08:05,343

And this sort of, there's this factory,

the system of processing cases.

215

00:08:05,403 --> 00:08:11,313

And I knew that there would

be some protection of that in

216

00:08:11,313 --> 00:08:12,753

reaction to what we're doing.

217

00:08:13,473 --> 00:08:18,393

I just, I found it strange to

be, compared to project 2025.

218

00:08:18,393 --> 00:08:23,073

I honestly don't get the reference

even as a slight, I don't understand.

219

00:08:24,613 --> 00:08:24,733

I,

220

00:08:25,167 --> 00:08:28,056

Christine: yeah, I noticed this when I

ran for office and that's kind of what

221

00:08:28,056 --> 00:08:33,186

really changed my trajectory and kind of

how I, not aligned politically, but just

222

00:08:33,186 --> 00:08:37,895

how I see politics because everybody came

out and painted me something that was

223

00:08:37,895 --> 00:08:42,336

completely opposite of what I was and the

person I was running against, I knew her

224

00:08:42,336 --> 00:08:48,665

political leanings and she was portrayed

as this completely different ideology than

225

00:08:48,665 --> 00:08:50,766

what I knew her to be behind closed doors.

226

00:08:50,976 --> 00:08:56,196

So I think it's a weapon, like if you

were to just utilize my name with, I'm

227

00:08:56,196 --> 00:09:00,546

trying to think of someone controversial

on the right and the left, like.

228

00:09:01,236 --> 00:09:05,746

If you utilize my name with either

one of those people you can just

229

00:09:05,746 --> 00:09:07,906

completely alienate an entire audience.

230

00:09:07,996 --> 00:09:08,596

Hugh: Yeah, that makes sense.

231

00:09:08,686 --> 00:09:09,286

Christine: That's the goal.

232

00:09:09,376 --> 00:09:13,846

Like the goal is to make people think

we are either one way or the other.

233

00:09:13,846 --> 00:09:18,166

And you know, I would say

we're probably as neutral.

234

00:09:18,376 --> 00:09:21,616

I know judges is neutral, but when it

comes to judges, it's a nonpartisan issue.

235

00:09:21,616 --> 00:09:22,276

Sorry, I ramble.

236

00:09:22,276 --> 00:09:22,366

No,

237

00:09:22,532 --> 00:09:23,768

Hugh: Yeah, it's a nonpartisan issue.

238

00:09:23,768 --> 00:09:24,548

Absolutely is.

239

00:09:24,831 --> 00:09:28,786

Christine: I mean, I would say most of

these judges probably lean towards the

240

00:09:28,786 --> 00:09:31,216

left and yet they violate due process.

241

00:09:31,216 --> 00:09:31,816

Like,

242

00:09:31,821 --> 00:09:32,701

Hugh: oh, I don't know about that.

243

00:09:34,043 --> 00:09:35,588

Oh, interesting.

244

00:09:35,588 --> 00:09:36,068

Tell me more.

245

00:09:36,398 --> 00:09:41,228

Well, just in cases of religion, I mean,

one of the, one of the things that I

246

00:09:41,468 --> 00:09:46,268

had to talk to my clients about where

in, in so many cases where the religious

247

00:09:46,268 --> 00:09:49,448

leanings and when it comes into school

choice, if you're looking at Catholic

248

00:09:49,448 --> 00:09:56,558

schools versus a Christian school versus,

and while that in Kentucky law at least.

249

00:09:57,878 --> 00:10:01,448

Private school, unless the child has

some sort of special need, should not

250

00:10:01,448 --> 00:10:03,158

be something that a judge is deciding.

251

00:10:03,158 --> 00:10:07,238

But we knew that religious

affiliation, religious beliefs

252

00:10:07,238 --> 00:10:09,968

are gonna play into it and they're

always going to, judges are humans.

253

00:10:09,968 --> 00:10:10,058

Mm-hmm.

254

00:10:10,298 --> 00:10:15,218

We are not asking computers to judge

our cases, but as a practitioner,

255

00:10:15,578 --> 00:10:17,678

your clients need to understand that.

256

00:10:17,678 --> 00:10:21,878

And the political leanings, I mean,

there were same gendered issues that I

257

00:10:21,878 --> 00:10:27,578

knew if we ended up, I mean, especially

early on with same gender divorce.

258

00:10:27,608 --> 00:10:27,668

Yeah.

259

00:10:27,998 --> 00:10:31,988

When you had the spouses living

in separate counties, big part of

260

00:10:31,988 --> 00:10:35,258

the decision was where you filed

and what the leanings were of that

261

00:10:35,258 --> 00:10:36,608

judge because it was something new.

262

00:10:36,608 --> 00:10:40,318

And it was thanks to what's her

name, Davis, the woman who wouldn't.

263

00:10:41,158 --> 00:10:41,848

Kim Davis.

264

00:10:41,848 --> 00:10:42,088

Kim Davis, yep.

265

00:10:42,088 --> 00:10:42,418

Thanks.

266

00:10:42,418 --> 00:10:43,408

Thanks to her.

267

00:10:43,588 --> 00:10:46,138

It was politicized from

the very beginning.

268

00:10:46,438 --> 00:10:46,768

July 29 Cam HW: Yeah.

269

00:10:46,768 --> 00:10:50,488

Hugh: And I mean, so I, I

think that we had to really.

270

00:10:52,213 --> 00:10:55,423

Do our due diligence on the judges

and, and advise our clients on it.

271

00:10:55,423 --> 00:10:57,583

And I, I didn't find them

to be one way or the other.

272

00:10:57,583 --> 00:10:58,843

It was a very mixed bag.

273

00:10:58,843 --> 00:11:00,463

Especially when you got

outside of Louisville.

274

00:11:00,951 --> 00:11:02,541

Christine: Well, I guess

I would say, oh, for sure.

275

00:11:02,541 --> 00:11:04,491

Outside of Louisville, you

know, I used to practice,

276

00:11:04,551 --> 00:11:04,821

Hugh: I know

277

00:11:04,911 --> 00:11:05,641

Christine: in Morehead.

278

00:11:05,821 --> 00:11:05,971

Oh, I know.

279

00:11:05,971 --> 00:11:06,969

That's where Kim Davis was.

280

00:11:06,969 --> 00:11:07,118

But

281

00:11:07,118 --> 00:11:10,123

Hugh: I, when I think of the Louisville

area, I include the other counties that

282

00:11:10,123 --> 00:11:11,503

most Louisville attorneys practice.

283

00:11:11,503 --> 00:11:13,333

You know, the Shelby Spencer okay.

284

00:11:13,333 --> 00:11:16,403

Samuel Anderson Oldham

Trim, you know that.

285

00:11:16,403 --> 00:11:17,183

That's one circuit.

286

00:11:17,183 --> 00:11:20,333

Then the Trimble Henry

Oldham, and then bullet.

287

00:11:21,533 --> 00:11:22,973

That's, that's pretty much it.

288

00:11:22,973 --> 00:11:25,523

But I mean, that's, that's sort of

the Louisville metropolitan area

289

00:11:25,523 --> 00:11:26,963

that, that people practice in.

290

00:11:26,963 --> 00:11:27,743

So I, I was,

291

00:11:27,871 --> 00:11:30,031

Christine: see people from

here definitely don't do that.

292

00:11:30,061 --> 00:11:32,551

Like, I don't even know, I grew

up in Bullock County and from the

293

00:11:32,551 --> 00:11:35,790

south end of Louisville, but I don't

know that I'd ever been to Anderson

294

00:11:35,790 --> 00:11:37,411

County until I was a litigator.

295

00:11:37,411 --> 00:11:39,841

Like why would you go to, I mean, no

offense, maybe, I don't even know what's

296

00:11:39,841 --> 00:11:43,951

in Anderson County, but people, when I'm

say I'm like, I predominantly it's wrong.

297

00:11:43,951 --> 00:11:44,521

I need to stop.

298

00:11:44,521 --> 00:11:46,981

But when I say like our local

judges, I mean Louisville.

299

00:11:46,981 --> 00:11:47,401

Okay.

300

00:11:47,941 --> 00:11:51,781

But yeah, I would say that definitely

like our Bullock County judges,

301

00:11:51,781 --> 00:11:53,461

no, they are not liberal leaning.

302

00:11:53,818 --> 00:11:54,293

Hugh: I mean, I, I.

303

00:11:55,163 --> 00:11:58,613

I don't know at the moment, honestly, I

just, I, I remember there were certain

304

00:11:58,613 --> 00:12:02,303

issues that you could research and,

and thanks to social media and people

305

00:12:02,303 --> 00:12:04,883

posting online, you can figure out where

they stand on things and you can make

306

00:12:04,883 --> 00:12:09,213

strategic decisions about where what

forum you wanted your case heard in, what

307

00:12:09,213 --> 00:12:12,363

judge you wanted to end up in front of,

to the extent that you had the ability

308

00:12:12,363 --> 00:12:13,653

to file in one place or the other.

309

00:12:13,653 --> 00:12:15,123

That was a very important decision.

310

00:12:15,461 --> 00:12:16,871

Christine: Yeah, and I think

that's one of the problems too.

311

00:12:16,871 --> 00:12:20,501

Like you shouldn't know how your

judges vote, but you know, I follow

312

00:12:20,501 --> 00:12:24,371

pol like local politics pretty closely

and get kind of obsessed with it in

313

00:12:24,371 --> 00:12:25,721

a way that's like weird probably.

314

00:12:25,721 --> 00:12:26,171

But yeah.

315

00:12:26,171 --> 00:12:28,061

You know, we got the

TikTok judge, Denise Brown.

316

00:12:28,061 --> 00:12:29,711

I mean, obviously she hates Donald Trump.

317

00:12:29,711 --> 00:12:31,061

She does tiktoks about it.

318

00:12:31,503 --> 00:12:31,773

Hugh: Sure.

319

00:12:31,803 --> 00:12:33,003

Well, I mean, you have judges that.

320

00:12:33,678 --> 00:12:37,758

Post pictures on social media of them

at events for a specific political

321

00:12:37,758 --> 00:12:39,018

candidate for one of the parties.

322

00:12:39,018 --> 00:12:43,518

So, you know, that was all very helpful to

me as an attorney, to know those things.

323

00:12:43,518 --> 00:12:46,848

You're telegraphing things that are going

to help me make decisions for my clients.

324

00:12:46,848 --> 00:12:51,168

So I, I'm not, you know, from the

outside neutrally, I don't like it.

325

00:12:51,168 --> 00:12:55,578

I don't think that's, I don't think that's

proper, but when I was in the practice,

326

00:12:55,788 --> 00:12:58,788

it was something that I could use and

make better decisions for my clients

327

00:12:58,961 --> 00:13:00,491

Christine: and that goes so much.

328

00:13:00,491 --> 00:13:04,781

You and I have talked about this, but so

much to the point that strategy matters

329

00:13:04,781 --> 00:13:08,561

just as much as knowing the law and the

rules of procedure and rules of evidence

330

00:13:08,658 --> 00:13:12,948

Hugh: more so when you know your

judges are less likely to enforce

331

00:13:12,948 --> 00:13:16,848

the rules or to understand them, you

have to strategize on other things

332

00:13:16,848 --> 00:13:20,778

like people's political leanings

or the things that make you angry.

333

00:13:20,778 --> 00:13:26,028

When I talk about the strategies, like

finding ways to use up, well more than

334

00:13:26,028 --> 00:13:29,388

your allotted time in court so the other

side doesn't get their points across,

335

00:13:29,388 --> 00:13:31,728

ways to monopolize the room just.

336

00:13:31,728 --> 00:13:36,138

I, because you're not, if you can't win

on the law and the rules because it's a

337

00:13:36,138 --> 00:13:40,758

crapshoot, then you're going to try to

strategize in another way as an advocate.

338

00:13:40,758 --> 00:13:42,678

That's sort of the way the practice works.

339

00:13:42,708 --> 00:13:43,068

I,

340

00:13:43,458 --> 00:13:43,758

July 29 Cam HW: yep.

341

00:13:43,818 --> 00:13:49,158

Hugh: I would be mortified if I were the

client and those things were deciding

342

00:13:49,158 --> 00:13:53,868

what was going to happen with the most

important assets in my life or my kids.

343

00:13:54,408 --> 00:13:56,508

That's the world we live in and

that's what we practiced in.

344

00:13:56,586 --> 00:13:58,496

Christine: Yeah, and I think

it's just gone too far.

345

00:13:58,496 --> 00:14:02,186

Like we've gone over the hill as

far as that goes, but absolutely.

346

00:14:02,186 --> 00:14:03,086

Strategy matters.

347

00:14:03,086 --> 00:14:04,166

Strategy matters.

348

00:14:04,166 --> 00:14:08,006

You guys, I cannot over articulate is

that even the right verbiage to say

349

00:14:08,186 --> 00:14:10,796

how much strategy matters in court.

350

00:14:10,856 --> 00:14:16,146

And I think this next viral clip will

kind of show maybe a little bit of how

351

00:14:16,146 --> 00:14:20,136

you think the wrong strategy was used

and how I have PTSD from watching it.

352

00:14:20,136 --> 00:14:21,126

Y'all wanna watch?

353

00:14:24,396 --> 00:14:24,726

Hugh: Alright.

354

00:14:24,726 --> 00:14:26,226

This is a clip we're gonna be watching.

355

00:14:26,226 --> 00:14:27,246

We'll show it on the screen.

356

00:14:27,386 --> 00:14:29,576

To those who are

listening, this is a clip.

357

00:14:29,876 --> 00:14:30,086

From

358

00:14:30,237 --> 00:14:34,908

inside a criminal courtroom, a

motion is made for discovery, which

359

00:14:34,908 --> 00:14:39,564

would ordinarily, I guess, be, have

been provided from the prosecution.

360

00:14:39,626 --> 00:14:43,706

Christine: Well, the guy's in custody

and they miss, they mention probation.

361

00:14:43,806 --> 00:14:47,676

And it seems to me that the

attorney is not a public defender.

362

00:14:48,006 --> 00:14:49,415

And I'll explain more once we watch.

363

00:14:49,415 --> 00:14:49,476

No,

364

00:14:49,926 --> 00:14:50,646

Hugh: I, I, I agree.

365

00:15:03,756 --> 00:15:05,946

Christine: It's constitutionally

allowed or required.

366

00:15:06,426 --> 00:15:06,696

July 29 wide CM: Yep.

367

00:15:08,016 --> 00:15:09,696

Christine: And we were

talking about probation,

368

00:15:18,336 --> 00:15:18,606

right?

369

00:15:25,703 --> 00:15:28,378

Hugh: That statement that not a lot

of the attorneys have done that.

370

00:15:29,098 --> 00:15:30,178

That's really telling.

371

00:15:37,761 --> 00:15:38,751

Christine: Look at the poor defendant

372

00:15:41,181 --> 00:15:43,191

Hugh: standing in a courtroom

with everyone looking at him

373

00:15:43,461 --> 00:15:44,061

Christine: and yelling.

374

00:15:44,061 --> 00:15:45,351

Everyone's yelling like children

375

00:16:15,291 --> 00:16:16,071

proper way.

376

00:16:18,621 --> 00:16:20,811

Hugh: Seems like a proper way

would be to file a motion, which

377

00:16:20,811 --> 00:16:21,891

seems to be why they're in court.

378

00:16:38,966 --> 00:16:40,356

Christine: I wonder if contact Mr.

379

00:16:40,356 --> 00:16:41,796

Nichols is in their local rules.

380

00:16:42,276 --> 00:16:43,176

She says it a lot.

381

00:16:48,418 --> 00:16:50,133

Hugh: Didn't she say at

some point contact us?

382

00:16:50,443 --> 00:16:50,733

July 29 Cam HW: Yeah.

383

00:17:02,278 --> 00:17:04,167

Christine: And when talking about

being personally subpoenaed, that's

384

00:17:04,167 --> 00:17:04,768

the probation officer likely.

385

00:17:24,606 --> 00:17:28,956

All right, so you thought

that, what are your thoughts?

386

00:17:29,338 --> 00:17:31,738

Hugh: So of all the ones that

we were reviewing for the one

387

00:17:31,738 --> 00:17:35,038

today, I thought that was, that

one was in fairly in innocuous.

388

00:17:35,038 --> 00:17:37,798

I think the things that bother me are

not the things that bother you, the

389

00:17:37,798 --> 00:17:42,898

things that bother me, I don't like

when a court says, reach out to us and

390

00:17:42,903 --> 00:17:46,168

they're referring to the prosecution,

and you just get this feeling

391

00:17:46,168 --> 00:17:47,548

that it's all part of one machine.

392

00:17:47,878 --> 00:17:53,578

Like the prosecution and the

court are not part of a team.

393

00:17:53,638 --> 00:17:53,818

Yeah, yeah.

394

00:17:53,938 --> 00:17:55,873

It's not us versus them, both government.

395

00:17:56,093 --> 00:18:00,958

But that, yeah, that, that part

always, always bothered me from,

396

00:18:00,958 --> 00:18:02,488

from my time in dependency court.

397

00:18:02,518 --> 00:18:03,328

The other is.

398

00:18:04,378 --> 00:18:08,878

My takeaway is more just attorneys

sometimes need to read the room, but

399

00:18:09,448 --> 00:18:13,828

I, when the judge says attorneys,

not many attorneys around here

400

00:18:13,828 --> 00:18:18,838

have done that, which is filing

a motion to compel discovery for

401

00:18:18,838 --> 00:18:20,728

your defendant client, which.

402

00:18:21,163 --> 00:18:23,413

If you're not provided

it, you have no choice.

403

00:18:23,413 --> 00:18:24,678

You have to file that motion.

404

00:18:24,816 --> 00:18:26,016

Christine: Well, what probably happened?

405

00:18:26,016 --> 00:18:29,076

Okay, so it's a probation

revocation hearing likely because

406

00:18:29,076 --> 00:18:30,036

there's a probation officer.

407

00:18:30,096 --> 00:18:34,806

This one bothered me a lot because,

well, a lot of different reasons,

408

00:18:35,196 --> 00:18:39,036

but that judge, first off, let's

just have the very, very frank

409

00:18:39,036 --> 00:18:43,116

conversation about, if you wanna look

up the definition of mansplaining.

410

00:18:43,176 --> 00:18:44,946

That's what that judge did.

411

00:18:45,366 --> 00:18:46,596

She just has a vagina.

412

00:18:46,626 --> 00:18:46,956

Okay.

413

00:18:46,956 --> 00:18:51,756

And like I've talked before about female

judges being a problem, but the way

414

00:18:51,756 --> 00:18:58,776

that she condescendingly explained how

to lawyer to a lawyer in is insulting.

415

00:18:59,376 --> 00:19:03,486

But you have to think about when you

are in a room as a defense attorney

416

00:19:04,146 --> 00:19:09,426

and the judge's first inclination

is to protect the prosecutor,

417

00:19:09,636 --> 00:19:11,976

protect the probation officer.

418

00:19:12,126 --> 00:19:13,746

What likely happened is.

419

00:19:14,601 --> 00:19:15,201

He gets.

420

00:19:15,231 --> 00:19:16,641

So it's a male defendant.

421

00:19:16,821 --> 00:19:19,881

The attorney's a male, the defense

attorney gets a call, there's a probation

422

00:19:19,881 --> 00:19:24,411

violation, family member calls and is

like, oh my God, you've got Eric and Eric

423

00:19:24,411 --> 00:19:27,921

needs to get out on, is gonna miss work

and Eric's gonna miss all this stuff.

424

00:19:27,951 --> 00:19:29,451

Here's $1,500.

425

00:19:29,811 --> 00:19:32,571

Attorney picks up the phone, calls

the probation prosecutor, calls the

426

00:19:32,571 --> 00:19:36,171

probation officer to get the report,

the detailed report of the violations.

427

00:19:36,501 --> 00:19:40,281

And I'm just speculating, but it

sounds like the probation officer

428

00:19:40,281 --> 00:19:41,391

was like, I'm not giving it to you.

429

00:19:41,391 --> 00:19:42,021

I don't know you.

430

00:19:42,021 --> 00:19:42,861

I don't know who you are.

431

00:19:42,861 --> 00:19:44,271

Maybe the attorney was rude.

432

00:19:44,631 --> 00:19:46,941

So the attorney's like, well,

we need to have a hearing.

433

00:19:46,941 --> 00:19:49,851

I need to know what the violations

are as written in the report.

434

00:19:50,151 --> 00:19:54,231

And instead of just getting that as

he should, he had to file a motion.

435

00:19:54,381 --> 00:19:54,441

Yeah.

436

00:19:55,011 --> 00:19:59,121

And so the defendant is, constitutional

rights are invoked the second

437

00:19:59,121 --> 00:20:00,531

that you're in an orange jumpsuit.

438

00:20:00,621 --> 00:20:01,041

Right.

439

00:20:01,221 --> 00:20:05,181

And so the probation officer's like,

I'm God, I don't have to give you shit.

440

00:20:05,391 --> 00:20:08,301

And I know when I go in here, my

judge is gonna do whatever I wanna do.

441

00:20:09,218 --> 00:20:10,168

Hugh: That's how, that's how it felt.

442

00:20:10,168 --> 00:20:12,148

It also felt like this

attorney might have been from.

443

00:20:12,553 --> 00:20:14,053

Either practiced in another court Yeah.

444

00:20:14,083 --> 00:20:17,893

Or from a different county because the

judge, as you said, mansplained how

445

00:20:17,893 --> 00:20:21,763

things work in that court and everyone

just gets along and they just ask each

446

00:20:21,763 --> 00:20:27,463

other for things informally, which I

just can't fathom an attorney filing

447

00:20:27,463 --> 00:20:32,083

a motion to compel in an action like

this and getting it before the docket

448

00:20:32,083 --> 00:20:35,593

if they had not picked up the phone and

tried to get it through other means.

449

00:20:35,653 --> 00:20:38,563

It just doesn't make any sense that

you would file the motion first.

450

00:20:38,833 --> 00:20:42,038

I would imagine that this

attorney asked for it.

451

00:20:42,038 --> 00:20:42,198

Yep.

452

00:20:42,203 --> 00:20:44,473

And was told, no, it's not happening.

453

00:20:44,473 --> 00:20:47,983

And then you have a judge making excuses

that there was an oversight or some

454

00:20:47,983 --> 00:20:49,963

making excuses for the prosecution, which.

455

00:20:50,856 --> 00:20:53,886

Christine: And not even the

prosecution, also the probation office.

456

00:20:53,886 --> 00:20:53,946

Yeah.

457

00:20:53,976 --> 00:20:58,991

Which is also separate from the prosecutor

and oftentimes the probation officer.

458

00:20:58,991 --> 00:20:59,351

Fair enough.

459

00:20:59,351 --> 00:21:01,416

And the prosecutor are gonna

fight with one another too.

460

00:21:01,656 --> 00:21:04,176

They're gonna have their

own political dramas.

461

00:21:04,476 --> 00:21:08,046

But it's just the notion that when you

go into court as a defense attorney

462

00:21:08,256 --> 00:21:13,056

and you have the judge first thought,

I'm gonna protect my prosecutor and I'm

463

00:21:13,056 --> 00:21:15,096

gonna protect my probation officers.

464

00:21:15,306 --> 00:21:16,716

Not holy shit.

465

00:21:16,716 --> 00:21:21,546

There's a man in an orange jumpsuit

with his liberties being restrained.

466

00:21:21,756 --> 00:21:21,966

Right.

467

00:21:21,966 --> 00:21:22,296

Word.

468

00:21:22,506 --> 00:21:24,906

And I'm going to yell at you.

469

00:21:25,206 --> 00:21:28,836

Yeah, it's like, it's something that

could have happened also at a sidebar.

470

00:21:28,956 --> 00:21:31,176

You know what counsel's

approached the bench.

471

00:21:31,386 --> 00:21:32,976

You're new in this jurisdiction.

472

00:21:33,216 --> 00:21:36,516

I'm gonna push the little white noise

button and explain it, instead of just

473

00:21:36,726 --> 00:21:41,166

tearing him up and down in front of that

client and probably a wife or kids that

474

00:21:41,166 --> 00:21:45,616

somehow came up with $1,500 to get him out

on probation in front of the whole thing.

475

00:21:45,683 --> 00:21:48,953

Hugh: That's a really good point, and

that is something you do as a sidebar.

476

00:21:49,103 --> 00:21:52,523

And the sidebar is where an attorney

a judge will call attorneys up to

477

00:21:52,913 --> 00:21:55,883

the bar and they usually have some

white noise or something they put

478

00:21:55,883 --> 00:21:58,223

on so no one else in the courtroom

can hear what they talk about.

479

00:21:58,763 --> 00:22:01,913

And the judge can speak more frankly to

the attorneys or give some direction.

480

00:22:01,913 --> 00:22:03,923

And since both of them are

standing there, there's nothing

481

00:22:03,923 --> 00:22:05,213

wrong with them having that Yeah.

482

00:22:05,213 --> 00:22:05,933

Conversation.

483

00:22:05,933 --> 00:22:08,303

And they are often very helpful.

484

00:22:08,363 --> 00:22:08,453

Mm-hmm.

485

00:22:08,693 --> 00:22:12,353

And you want to know if you're stepping

in something or doing something

486

00:22:12,353 --> 00:22:14,573

different than the judge would

like, and they tell you privately.

487

00:22:14,603 --> 00:22:14,693

Yep.

488

00:22:14,903 --> 00:22:17,483

Doesn't cause an issue with your

client, doesn't undermine their faith

489

00:22:17,483 --> 00:22:19,133

in, in your ability to practice.

490

00:22:19,463 --> 00:22:23,183

You certainly just don't want that

conversation on the record as an attorney.

491

00:22:23,183 --> 00:22:28,193

But I will say, you know, when a

judge starts speaking, especially

492

00:22:28,193 --> 00:22:31,133

when she says she's gonna grant

your motion, just be quiet.

493

00:22:31,403 --> 00:22:31,470

Christine: I

494

00:22:31,470 --> 00:22:31,771

I dunno.

495

00:22:31,791 --> 00:22:33,146

I'm like, like, why the hell am I here?

496

00:22:33,146 --> 00:22:34,096

Take the win.

497

00:22:34,313 --> 00:22:34,823

Hugh: I agree.

498

00:22:34,823 --> 00:22:37,283

I would be exasperated too, but

as soon as she said I'm going to

499

00:22:37,283 --> 00:22:38,783

grant it, but she won't let me talk.

500

00:22:39,113 --> 00:22:40,913

Maybe that's the cue to be quiet.

501

00:22:41,003 --> 00:22:42,203

I'm not, this is coming from

502

00:22:42,203 --> 00:22:42,683

Christine: an hourly

503

00:22:42,757 --> 00:22:43,396

rate lawyer.

504

00:22:43,426 --> 00:22:43,726

Yeah.

505

00:22:43,936 --> 00:22:47,806

Not a flat rate lawyer that's wasted

all his time, drove 45 minutes.

506

00:22:47,806 --> 00:22:50,566

I'm speculating, but drove 45

minutes to file a motion to get

507

00:22:50,566 --> 00:22:53,536

something that he's constitutionally

entitled to and he's trying to say.

508

00:22:54,046 --> 00:22:57,466

He's trying to say too, listen,

probation officer I ever call you

509

00:22:57,466 --> 00:22:59,656

again, you better gimme what I need.

510

00:23:00,076 --> 00:23:00,376

July 29 wide CM: Sure.

511

00:23:00,556 --> 00:23:03,346

Christine: And the judge is saying,

oh, I got my probation officer's back.

512

00:23:03,766 --> 00:23:07,786

See, that's to the other side of it that

I'm just like, also there's verbiage.

513

00:23:07,846 --> 00:23:11,846

So, you don't need to be so

argumentative and defensive.

514

00:23:12,176 --> 00:23:12,476

Okay.

515

00:23:12,536 --> 00:23:13,196

Whoa.

516

00:23:14,013 --> 00:23:14,553

Hugh: Who am I?

517

00:23:14,553 --> 00:23:15,513

What am I doing here?

518

00:23:15,513 --> 00:23:16,713

Am I a defense attorney?

519

00:23:16,713 --> 00:23:17,373

I think I am.

520

00:23:17,516 --> 00:23:17,756

Christine: Yeah.

521

00:23:17,756 --> 00:23:19,496

That's like hashtag defense attorney.

522

00:23:19,616 --> 00:23:20,936

Hashtag argumentative.

523

00:23:20,936 --> 00:23:22,196

Put that on a billboard.

524

00:23:22,516 --> 00:23:27,166

And I think these are the small

little things that it's not nearly as

525

00:23:27,166 --> 00:23:31,066

egregious as some of the stuff that

we've watched, but it's also like.

526

00:23:31,606 --> 00:23:34,906

Do you notice too, how that judge,

female judge, I'll say it again.

527

00:23:34,906 --> 00:23:38,936

I know this is just my perspective,

but she doesn't have the ability

528

00:23:38,936 --> 00:23:41,306

to tell him how to go to hell

where he looks forward to the trip.

529

00:23:44,216 --> 00:23:45,056

Is that bad?

530

00:23:45,446 --> 00:23:45,806

July 29 wide CM: No,

531

00:23:46,046 --> 00:23:48,476

Christine: but she doesn't have

control over her courtroom.

532

00:23:48,476 --> 00:23:49,976

She gets emotional.

533

00:23:50,196 --> 00:23:54,456

And again, I'm a female, but she

gets emotional and she gets very

534

00:23:54,696 --> 00:23:58,626

tit for tat with him in a way

that I don't think is ju judicial.

535

00:23:58,686 --> 00:23:58,776

Well,

536

00:23:58,776 --> 00:23:59,111

Hugh: she did

537

00:23:59,158 --> 00:24:00,958

say, you don't want to interrupt me.

538

00:24:00,958 --> 00:24:03,688

I, that's, that's control.

539

00:24:03,816 --> 00:24:05,826

Christine: Oh, well, she,

well, she failed at it.

540

00:24:06,066 --> 00:24:06,906

'cause I'd have kept talking.

541

00:24:06,906 --> 00:24:09,126

I just, she did I command respect.

542

00:24:09,696 --> 00:24:10,176

Yeah.

543

00:24:10,446 --> 00:24:10,746

Hugh: Yeah.

544

00:24:11,033 --> 00:24:15,418

I just, you know, and this is coming from

an, as someone who practiced hourly, I

545

00:24:15,418 --> 00:24:17,788

would've been sitting there thinking,

why are we still talking about this?

546

00:24:17,788 --> 00:24:19,168

What is this a therapy session?

547

00:24:19,828 --> 00:24:25,318

Just say, granted, don't you know, there's

no reason for anyone to explain anything.

548

00:24:25,348 --> 00:24:26,698

I'm filing a motion for something.

549

00:24:26,698 --> 00:24:27,568

I'm constitutionally.

550

00:24:27,928 --> 00:24:31,078

Entitled to, if you're gonna grant

it, grant it and say get it to him.

551

00:24:31,078 --> 00:24:33,598

Get it to him by, you know,

today, leave here, you know,

552

00:24:33,598 --> 00:24:34,888

make it available right away.

553

00:24:35,158 --> 00:24:37,648

And then if we need to have a hearing,

and if it's not all there, counsel,

554

00:24:37,648 --> 00:24:40,654

put a motion on and I'll grant you the

hearing and then move on to the next case.

555

00:24:40,776 --> 00:24:40,986

Christine: Yeah.

556

00:24:40,986 --> 00:24:43,326

It's just, you're in these big

courtrooms, especially in criminal court.

557

00:24:43,326 --> 00:24:45,876

'cause they don't do these closed

courtrooms like civil family court does.

558

00:24:45,876 --> 00:24:46,806

Like that is super rare.

559

00:24:46,806 --> 00:24:48,426

Like, that doesn't happen in real court.

560

00:24:48,426 --> 00:24:51,286

And when I say real court, I

mean, district or circuit court

561

00:24:51,286 --> 00:24:54,616

criminal or civil family court

being closed is very unique.

562

00:24:54,826 --> 00:25:00,286

But you will literally have like lined

up all the cops, all the probation

563

00:25:00,286 --> 00:25:03,191

officers, the prosecutors, like

they, all the attorneys run the,

564

00:25:03,616 --> 00:25:05,686

but it'll be on these motion hours.

565

00:25:05,686 --> 00:25:10,486

It will be heavy, heavy, heavy public

defender, two public defenders versus

566

00:25:10,516 --> 00:25:12,526

15 people that work for the state.

567

00:25:12,616 --> 00:25:15,256

Just like sitting in court and

maybe a couple private attorneys.

568

00:25:15,261 --> 00:25:17,081

Hugh: And the private

attorneys sometimes will go up

569

00:25:17,081 --> 00:25:18,878

there and they'll call all

their cases right in a row so

570

00:25:18,878 --> 00:25:19,663

they can get in, in and out.

571

00:25:19,663 --> 00:25:21,098

And there's should No, no, I agree.

572

00:25:21,098 --> 00:25:23,078

I'm just saying that

there's a protocol to it.

573

00:25:23,078 --> 00:25:24,908

So if you're standing there

in that line, you're thinking.

574

00:25:25,673 --> 00:25:26,183

Oh, come on.

575

00:25:26,183 --> 00:25:26,753

Just be quiet.

576

00:25:26,753 --> 00:25:27,473

Just grant the motion.

577

00:25:27,473 --> 00:25:30,353

This is so absolutely 1 0 1.

578

00:25:30,353 --> 00:25:31,523

Granted, let's move on.

579

00:25:31,523 --> 00:25:32,663

I need to get to my case.

580

00:25:32,663 --> 00:25:33,593

We don't need to, you know.

581

00:25:33,593 --> 00:25:33,863

Oh, see, I'm

582

00:25:33,863 --> 00:25:33,953

Christine: the

583

00:25:34,111 --> 00:25:34,396

opposite.

584

00:25:34,396 --> 00:25:35,026

A public defender.

585

00:25:35,026 --> 00:25:36,166

I've been like, hell yeah.

586

00:25:36,226 --> 00:25:36,976

Keep going.

587

00:25:36,976 --> 00:25:37,846

Tell that judge.

588

00:25:37,846 --> 00:25:38,086

Yeah.

589

00:25:38,476 --> 00:25:39,256

I mean that's, yeah.

590

00:25:39,256 --> 00:25:41,386

The difference, I think, I don't know.

591

00:25:41,896 --> 00:25:42,826

Interesting point.

592

00:25:42,976 --> 00:25:45,166

We do see a lot of these

viral clips differently.

593

00:25:45,396 --> 00:25:47,783

Hugh: Well, I mean, from my point

of view, if the judge had started

594

00:25:47,783 --> 00:25:51,143

that way with me, I'm thinking, what

does this look like to my client?

595

00:25:51,233 --> 00:25:51,593

July 29 Cam HW: Mm-hmm.

596

00:25:51,658 --> 00:25:54,533

Hugh: And good point, as soon

as I know I'm winning on it.

597

00:25:54,563 --> 00:25:54,653

Mm-hmm.

598

00:25:54,893 --> 00:25:58,344

It's, it's sort of like the, the way

they train you in trial law, if you.

599

00:25:59,873 --> 00:26:02,753

Object and you lose on the

objection and it's clear.

600

00:26:02,753 --> 00:26:04,463

You can't argue your way around it.

601

00:26:04,463 --> 00:26:08,003

Some objections you, you can tell

that there's, if you argue and

602

00:26:08,003 --> 00:26:10,673

you present exactly why you're

objecting, you probably will win.

603

00:26:10,673 --> 00:26:12,023

But otherwise you lose.

604

00:26:12,203 --> 00:26:15,443

You say thank you, yes, you say thank

you to the people in the courtroom.

605

00:26:15,473 --> 00:26:17,603

It's not 100% clear that you lost.

606

00:26:17,603 --> 00:26:18,593

You're not arguing.

607

00:26:18,593 --> 00:26:22,853

It doesn't, you know, it doesn't

harm you to, let's say the witness.

608

00:26:23,033 --> 00:26:27,653

If you're questioning a witness that's

an adverse witness and you lose on

609

00:26:27,653 --> 00:26:30,624

an objection that the other side

is giving and you say thank you and

610

00:26:30,629 --> 00:26:32,003

you just move forward confidently.

611

00:26:32,003 --> 00:26:35,663

You have continued to control

the room and you are not on your

612

00:26:35,663 --> 00:26:39,233

heels for that witness who's

automatically, who's defensive anyway.

613

00:26:39,473 --> 00:26:40,913

So to a certain extent,

614

00:26:41,902 --> 00:26:42,743

thinking about those things.

615

00:26:42,743 --> 00:26:46,403

If the judge says, I'm going to grant it,

then I'm just gonna shut up, sit down.

616

00:26:47,063 --> 00:26:49,013

I'm not going to get into it any further.

617

00:26:49,013 --> 00:26:51,143

I'm gonna lean over to the

client, say, we got it.

618

00:26:51,143 --> 00:26:52,283

They're gonna have to give this discovery.

619

00:26:52,283 --> 00:26:53,483

Then I would say, judge, thank you.

620

00:26:54,023 --> 00:26:55,043

When can I have this?

621

00:26:55,043 --> 00:26:56,363

My client is missing work.

622

00:26:56,363 --> 00:26:57,173

I'm doing all these things.

623

00:26:57,173 --> 00:26:58,403

When am I going to get this?

624

00:26:58,741 --> 00:27:00,901

Christine: Well, you wouldn't

write a dissertation on it.

625

00:27:02,551 --> 00:27:05,297

And that segues into, I, I

think in that case you need to

626

00:27:05,333 --> 00:27:07,193

Hugh: be quiet and you

mustn't write a dissertation.

627

00:27:07,711 --> 00:27:12,061

Christine: Oh, this segues into

Judge Jessica Stone, y'all.

628

00:27:12,151 --> 00:27:18,541

This is Division Five's Louisville

Judge that called us cartoons and media.

629

00:27:18,541 --> 00:27:19,891

So I'm very excited about that.

630

00:27:19,891 --> 00:27:22,141

We got our press pass via Judge Stone.

631

00:27:22,631 --> 00:27:24,221

Can I do a little backstory on her?

632

00:27:24,731 --> 00:27:25,181

Hugh: Go for it.

633

00:27:25,751 --> 00:27:30,221

Christine: So Judge Jessica Stone was

a prior prosecutor district court.

634

00:27:30,461 --> 00:27:36,701

She had a pretty contentious divorce in

Division five and she's an attorney and

635

00:27:36,701 --> 00:27:38,981

she decided to run for family court judge.

636

00:27:39,031 --> 00:27:40,201

And she won.

637

00:27:40,231 --> 00:27:40,471

Okay.

638

00:27:40,471 --> 00:27:44,101

She had never practiced family

law in any capacity, and it's my

639

00:27:44,101 --> 00:27:47,191

understanding that she ran because

she had problems with the system.

640

00:27:47,251 --> 00:27:48,181

Is that your understanding?

641

00:27:48,226 --> 00:27:48,316

That,

642

00:27:48,678 --> 00:27:50,573

Hugh: that, those were all

the rumors that I heard.

643

00:27:50,663 --> 00:27:50,903

Yeah.

644

00:27:50,903 --> 00:27:52,313

Which I kind of thought, well good.

645

00:27:52,313 --> 00:27:53,483

If you have issues with the system.

646

00:27:53,483 --> 00:27:53,963

Let's see.

647

00:27:53,963 --> 00:27:54,803

See if you can fix them.

648

00:27:54,946 --> 00:27:55,096

Christine: Yeah.

649

00:27:55,096 --> 00:27:58,186

The Courier did a whole article on

it about how, you know, everybody

650

00:27:58,186 --> 00:28:00,076

wished her well after she won.

651

00:28:00,376 --> 00:28:04,546

Well, I would say it took her about 27.3

652

00:28:04,546 --> 00:28:09,376

seconds once she put that black robe

on to just fully drink the Kool-Aid.

653

00:28:10,733 --> 00:28:10,943

Hugh: Yeah.

654

00:28:10,943 --> 00:28:14,903

I can't say that I noticed any

difference from the very beginning,

655

00:28:14,903 --> 00:28:18,053

from the remainder of, of family court.

656

00:28:18,053 --> 00:28:19,223

It was just business as usual.

657

00:28:19,223 --> 00:28:22,613

Nothing, nothing changed other than

there was some wrangling over staff.

658

00:28:22,703 --> 00:28:22,943

July 29 Cam HW: Yeah.

659

00:28:22,943 --> 00:28:23,123

And

660

00:28:23,123 --> 00:28:24,383

Hugh: some, some things like that.

661

00:28:24,383 --> 00:28:28,883

But as far as the way the dockets were

run, how people were treated, , the

662

00:28:28,943 --> 00:28:32,953

court appointments and the, you

know, rubber stamping what GS and

663

00:28:32,953 --> 00:28:37,033

FOCs would say, that kind of stuff

seemed to just continue as usual.

664

00:28:37,326 --> 00:28:39,456

Christine: Now, I'll tell you, I

mean, in all honesty, I'm, I don't

665

00:28:39,456 --> 00:28:40,686

wanna bring any levity to this.

666

00:28:40,686 --> 00:28:41,586

I'm not being dramatic.

667

00:28:41,586 --> 00:28:44,736

I hadn't watched motion hour and

probably a year when I went for

668

00:28:44,736 --> 00:28:46,566

the baby case and I sat in on her.

669

00:28:47,031 --> 00:28:51,321

Motion hour and truly aghast.

670

00:28:51,441 --> 00:28:54,381

She doesn't understand

rudimentary concepts of law.

671

00:28:54,471 --> 00:28:57,981

And I am genuinely concerned,

and I know a lot of Louisville

672

00:28:57,981 --> 00:28:59,361

litigators share this concern.

673

00:28:59,361 --> 00:29:00,861

I spoke to people afterwards.

674

00:29:01,231 --> 00:29:04,171

I'm afraid that somebody's gonna

get hurt with one of her rulings.

675

00:29:04,171 --> 00:29:06,361

'cause I don't think she has

any idea what she's doing.

676

00:29:07,493 --> 00:29:10,103

Hugh: The one thing I, I can say that

I'm thinking a little bit more about.

677

00:29:10,103 --> 00:29:16,823

When she first started, I did find

that she had the demeanor and the way

678

00:29:16,823 --> 00:29:20,063

that she spoke to people at motion

hour, starting off like, here I'm

679

00:29:20,063 --> 00:29:21,263

a new judge, I'm still learning.

680

00:29:21,263 --> 00:29:26,993

She, there wasn't a huge ego to where

you could point out that there were

681

00:29:26,993 --> 00:29:31,013

errors and issues and she was very

willing to say, okay, you're right.

682

00:29:31,013 --> 00:29:32,903

I, I, it looks like I'm

gonna re-look at this.

683

00:29:32,903 --> 00:29:34,418

And she would go back and actually mm-hmm.

684

00:29:34,498 --> 00:29:34,818

July 29 Cam HW: Look at

685

00:29:34,818 --> 00:29:35,218

Hugh: it, which.

686

00:29:35,828 --> 00:29:36,428

It's kind of rare.

687

00:29:36,428 --> 00:29:39,008

Now we have some judges that will still

do that and they've been on the bench

688

00:29:39,008 --> 00:29:40,388

forever and they still will do that.

689

00:29:40,388 --> 00:29:43,058

And to their credit, they can

admit when they're wrong and they

690

00:29:43,058 --> 00:29:44,228

can go back and re-look at things.

691

00:29:44,528 --> 00:29:48,098

But that was a very, that was one thing

that was positive to me at the beginning.

692

00:29:48,098 --> 00:29:54,138

I thought, well this could be something

where, you know, we politely file 59

693

00:29:54,138 --> 00:29:57,873

0 5 motions or motions to reconsider

in things that we will still get some,

694

00:29:57,973 --> 00:29:59,593

you know, so 15 nine get some results

695

00:29:59,768 --> 00:29:59,931

Christine: would

696

00:29:59,971 --> 00:30:01,051

be like something though.

697

00:30:01,051 --> 00:30:03,271

She, what he means by that is

like politely file something.

698

00:30:03,271 --> 00:30:04,771

I do not mean to interrupt

you, but just like

699

00:30:04,776 --> 00:30:04,976

July 29 wide CM: mm-hmm.

700

00:30:05,206 --> 00:30:07,831

Christine: When you, the judge gets

the law blatantly wrong or gets a

701

00:30:07,831 --> 00:30:09,061

ruling blatantly wrong, you gotta,

702

00:30:09,391 --> 00:30:09,656

July 29 wide CM: that

could be a fact as well.

703

00:30:09,686 --> 00:30:09,976

Yeah.

704

00:30:10,081 --> 00:30:10,561

Christine: A fact.

705

00:30:10,641 --> 00:30:14,156

But you file just to say, Hey

judge, like look at this law

706

00:30:14,271 --> 00:30:16,461

fact testimony, et cetera.

707

00:30:16,731 --> 00:30:18,291

And you do that politely, but Yeah.

708

00:30:18,291 --> 00:30:18,561

Sorry.

709

00:30:18,561 --> 00:30:18,981

Yeah, you do.

710

00:30:18,981 --> 00:30:19,027

Hugh: I

711

00:30:19,078 --> 00:30:22,438

mean, you point out you point out

the manifest errors of fact law

712

00:30:22,438 --> 00:30:27,388

under the rule and you say, you

said that this was the wife's.

713

00:30:28,063 --> 00:30:30,673

Premarital property in order to

her, it was actually the husbands.

714

00:30:30,673 --> 00:30:34,123

And I think that you, you know,

just misread, you know, if something

715

00:30:34,123 --> 00:30:36,733

happened, but you clearly didn't

mean this, but this was in the order.

716

00:30:36,733 --> 00:30:37,783

It needs to be corrected.

717

00:30:37,783 --> 00:30:37,784

Mm-hmm.

718

00:30:37,793 --> 00:30:39,253

And those things will be corrected.

719

00:30:39,253 --> 00:30:42,313

And some judges will look and

say, oh man, I'm sorry about that.

720

00:30:42,313 --> 00:30:43,363

We all make mistakes.

721

00:30:43,363 --> 00:30:43,843

We correct it.

722

00:30:43,843 --> 00:30:43,903

Yeah.

723

00:30:44,113 --> 00:30:46,423

That's why the rule is

there and it, and it works.

724

00:30:46,423 --> 00:30:50,593

And then there are some that absolutely

you can't challenge them if you say that

725

00:30:50,893 --> 00:30:52,453

that's not even a party to the case.

726

00:30:52,453 --> 00:30:56,263

You use the wrong name, still

won't correct it and will slam you.

727

00:30:56,263 --> 00:31:02,573

And so I had had some experience with one

of our current judges who just wouldn't

728

00:31:02,663 --> 00:31:06,713

correct basic things that, that were,

he just would reverse the parties and

729

00:31:06,713 --> 00:31:08,663

rulings and I couldn't get them corrected.

730

00:31:08,663 --> 00:31:12,413

So when I saw her willing to correct

things and say, yep, I may have,

731

00:31:12,443 --> 00:31:13,493

I may have gotten that wrong.

732

00:31:13,493 --> 00:31:15,353

I, I, that was huge for me.

733

00:31:15,468 --> 00:31:19,358

I, I, I was very hopeful that we

would have somebody that would, you

734

00:31:19,358 --> 00:31:20,933

know, you still take a look at things.

735

00:31:22,796 --> 00:31:23,016

Oh,

736

00:31:24,036 --> 00:31:24,256

Christine: si.

737

00:31:25,021 --> 00:31:26,161

It's really difficult.

738

00:31:26,161 --> 00:31:30,101

And I do get, from the attorneys I

talk to, they're just like I said,

739

00:31:30,101 --> 00:31:33,071

some fundamental things that I

don't think she knows the law on.

740

00:31:33,371 --> 00:31:37,031

I have not heard one, and lemme be very

clear, I have not heard one positive

741

00:31:37,031 --> 00:31:40,661

thing from any attorney in her division.

742

00:31:40,841 --> 00:31:41,321

Period.

743

00:31:41,326 --> 00:31:43,601

And I, I do hear it about other judges.

744

00:31:43,684 --> 00:31:45,828

Hugh: Yeah, no, I mean, I,

I will say that that's true.

745

00:31:45,828 --> 00:31:49,928

There were, there were people that I, I

spoke with and I would, you know, bitch

746

00:31:49,928 --> 00:31:54,428

and moan about certain people, court

appointed people or you know, people

747

00:31:54,428 --> 00:31:56,168

that were involved in so many cases.

748

00:31:56,168 --> 00:31:58,808

And there, there were some attorneys

that had been around for a long time

749

00:31:58,808 --> 00:32:03,488

that always would have positive things

to say, to sort of, well, that's okay.

750

00:32:03,488 --> 00:32:08,018

But sometimes that person, you know, would

always say things positive and, and the.

751

00:32:08,693 --> 00:32:11,363

It didn't generally happen when you

were talking about division five.

752

00:32:11,463 --> 00:32:11,823

And this is

753

00:32:11,854 --> 00:32:14,261

Christine: Jessica Stone, and this

is the Facebook post that Alison

754

00:32:14,261 --> 00:32:17,801

Russell initially did talking about

judgy, but she made a comment on there

755

00:32:17,801 --> 00:32:19,211

and we'll share it on the screen.

756

00:32:19,431 --> 00:32:27,456

But essentially she just said, we can't be

distracted from cartoons and press media.

757

00:32:27,461 --> 00:32:27,831

Media.

758

00:32:27,891 --> 00:32:28,191

Yeah.

759

00:32:28,221 --> 00:32:28,581

Media.

760

00:32:28,581 --> 00:32:29,931

Media we're media.

761

00:32:30,231 --> 00:32:36,051

And that, that takes away, we mustn't take

away from the hard work that Division five

762

00:32:36,601 --> 00:32:41,221

does every day, which of course there were

like three attorneys that are like, oh

763

00:32:41,221 --> 00:32:42,451

my gosh, you have the hardest job ever.

764

00:32:42,451 --> 00:32:43,321

Oh my God, I love you.

765

00:32:43,321 --> 00:32:46,321

Hashtag you know, blowing

kisses and things like that.

766

00:32:46,321 --> 00:32:50,251

Again, I'm being a bit facetious

and sarcastic, but one.

767

00:32:51,106 --> 00:32:51,856

Judges.

768

00:32:52,006 --> 00:32:53,296

Y'all aren't that dumb.

769

00:32:53,356 --> 00:32:56,476

You know that anybody that does

that on Facebook is talking

770

00:32:56,476 --> 00:32:57,556

about you behind your back.

771

00:32:57,556 --> 00:33:00,796

The second they hit enter on

that post, let me just tell you.

772

00:33:00,826 --> 00:33:01,366

Okay.

773

00:33:01,706 --> 00:33:02,126

Two.

774

00:33:02,126 --> 00:33:05,666

And I do think judges realize that

also all the people, and you don't

775

00:33:05,666 --> 00:33:09,446

get mad at me, all the people that

are making those sort of posts are

776

00:33:09,476 --> 00:33:14,876

the attorneys that are probably

making between 50 and $75,000 a year.

777

00:33:14,906 --> 00:33:19,616

You know, I mean, no one will go harder

for the system than the worker bee

778

00:33:19,616 --> 00:33:22,166

that's making 50 to $75,000 a year.

779

00:33:22,346 --> 00:33:24,056

That like gets a little bit of clout.

780

00:33:24,086 --> 00:33:28,196

'cause they get invited to a Christmas

party at the judges like guest house.

781

00:33:28,196 --> 00:33:28,886

You know what I mean?

782

00:33:29,015 --> 00:33:30,828

Hugh: Well, or the ones that

are taking court appointments.

783

00:33:30,833 --> 00:33:30,932

Christine: Yeah,

784

00:33:30,932 --> 00:33:31,348

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

785

00:33:31,496 --> 00:33:34,226

Oh, these are, I mean, I think all the

positive comments were court appointments.

786

00:33:34,226 --> 00:33:35,396

Maybe not one attorney or two.

787

00:33:36,258 --> 00:33:37,153

Hugh: Oh, I, oh, I agree.

788

00:33:37,253 --> 00:33:37,673

Mm-hmm.

789

00:33:37,758 --> 00:33:41,088

And then there's some of the same

people that leave positive reviews for

790

00:33:41,088 --> 00:33:43,668

court systems, which Google reviews.

791

00:33:43,818 --> 00:33:44,298

Wow.

792

00:33:44,298 --> 00:33:44,478

Yeah.

793

00:33:44,478 --> 00:33:45,673

Google reviews for, for.

794

00:33:46,428 --> 00:33:47,718

Municipal court systems.

795

00:33:47,718 --> 00:33:48,828

That's some apple polishing.

796

00:33:48,888 --> 00:33:49,578

That's amazing.

797

00:33:49,736 --> 00:33:50,726

Christine: Oh my goodness.

798

00:33:50,726 --> 00:33:55,796

And so also, let's just

debate to the ethics of Judge

799

00:33:55,796 --> 00:33:58,676

Stone saying that about us.

800

00:33:58,676 --> 00:34:01,076

Like, what was she one thinking?

801

00:34:01,076 --> 00:34:03,926

I know people that are waiting, and I

know numerous attorneys that are waiting

802

00:34:03,926 --> 00:34:05,696

for orders from her from March and April.

803

00:34:05,746 --> 00:34:07,936

But what was she thinking, do you think?

804

00:34:10,233 --> 00:34:13,623

Hugh: I read it as being defensive

about our, our roll calls with the

805

00:34:13,623 --> 00:34:17,703

judges that when she's not on the bench

and we're pointing out who, well, we

806

00:34:17,703 --> 00:34:20,943

haven't pointed out specifically which

divisions are there, but we are pointing

807

00:34:20,943 --> 00:34:23,583

out that there are a lot of people

that are not there in the middle of the

808

00:34:23,583 --> 00:34:25,592

workday on multiple days of the week.

809

00:34:25,922 --> 00:34:26,013

Mm-hmm.

810

00:34:26,253 --> 00:34:31,572

It seemed the, the tone to me was,

well, I would respond to this, but

811

00:34:31,572 --> 00:34:36,943

I'm way too busy working on, you know,

my job as a, a family court judge.

812

00:34:37,460 --> 00:34:40,041

Christine: I'm way too busy, but I

have time to post on social media.

813

00:34:40,045 --> 00:34:40,065

Well,

814

00:34:40,085 --> 00:34:40,306

Hugh: it.

815

00:34:42,636 --> 00:34:45,081

Christine: I, I just, you

know, bless her heart again,

816

00:34:45,081 --> 00:34:45,891

that's gonna be my new hashtag.

817

00:34:45,891 --> 00:34:47,331

Bless all their hearts.

818

00:34:47,481 --> 00:34:51,440

Seriously though, Jessica Stone we would

like for you to, we would like for all

819

00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:53,150

the judges to do a good job in court.

820

00:34:53,150 --> 00:34:57,711

Seriously, there are families and children

that it's literally life or death.

821

00:34:57,831 --> 00:35:03,051

And so I hope that instead of getting

on Facebook or taking the time to get on

822

00:35:03,051 --> 00:35:07,911

Reddit and talk about me, that maybe there

are a lot of free CLEs in family law.

823

00:35:07,941 --> 00:35:12,111

And we talk a lot about the rules

of evidence and things that can make

824

00:35:12,111 --> 00:35:14,091

the system better on this podcast.

825

00:35:14,091 --> 00:35:15,651

And I do on TikTok as well.

826

00:35:15,651 --> 00:35:18,921

So you could, you know, certainly

subscribe to our channel.

827

00:35:18,921 --> 00:35:21,501

Maybe you'll learn a

thing or two, I swear.

828

00:35:21,501 --> 00:35:23,451

Parties, in turn, cameras on.

829

00:35:23,661 --> 00:35:25,371

Speak to people with respect.

830

00:35:25,461 --> 00:35:26,511

You got anything else?

831

00:35:26,983 --> 00:35:29,338

Hugh: Oh, gross.

832

00:35:29,338 --> 00:35:31,498

Revenue of a business versus income.

833

00:35:32,998 --> 00:35:33,603

Christine: I can't.

834

00:35:33,656 --> 00:35:33,706

That's

835

00:35:33,706 --> 00:35:34,581

Hugh: a, that's a, that's a good one.

836

00:35:34,761 --> 00:35:35,601

Christine: Oh my goodness.

837

00:35:35,751 --> 00:35:37,821

Actually we do, we'll do

a little segment on that.

838

00:35:37,821 --> 00:35:40,911

We should, because gr Did you

guys know that gross income

839

00:35:40,911 --> 00:35:42,141

and net income are different?

840

00:35:43,371 --> 00:35:43,401

Hugh: I

841

00:35:43,447 --> 00:35:44,038

bet you did.

842

00:35:45,812 --> 00:35:46,641

Christine: Oh my goodness.

843

00:35:46,641 --> 00:35:48,801

And so, I am,

844

00:35:48,833 --> 00:35:54,028

Hugh: it's so bad and it's, it just

seems so petty to say, and it seems like

845

00:35:54,028 --> 00:35:55,618

we're making this up, but we're not.

846

00:35:55,918 --> 00:36:00,268

This is the stuff that we struggled with

and that people would spend $50,000 Oh.

847

00:36:00,268 --> 00:36:01,618

And we would have to appeal.

848

00:36:01,618 --> 00:36:05,843

And you, , a regular appeal on something

property related that's not expedited is,

849

00:36:05,873 --> 00:36:07,943

is a year and a halfs a year and a half.

850

00:36:07,943 --> 00:36:10,043

It has been for the last 10, 15 years.

851

00:36:10,313 --> 00:36:13,283

They take a year and a half, and then

you end up back in front of the same

852

00:36:13,283 --> 00:36:16,253

judge and have to politely explain that.

853

00:36:16,928 --> 00:36:22,658

This is business revenue on the tax

return that my business made $7 million.

854

00:36:22,658 --> 00:36:23,408

Mm-hmm.

855

00:36:23,409 --> 00:36:25,598

I have a salary of $75,000.

856

00:36:25,838 --> 00:36:27,848

We have lots of people

that work for the business.

857

00:36:27,878 --> 00:36:30,128

I didn't make millions of dollars.

858

00:36:30,128 --> 00:36:31,568

Like there is a difference.

859

00:36:31,808 --> 00:36:35,198

This is a tax return, but

it's, it was shocking how often

860

00:36:35,198 --> 00:36:36,458

that happened that Oh yeah.

861

00:36:36,488 --> 00:36:40,838

Someone could come in with one page of a

business tax return with a motion and say,

862

00:36:41,438 --> 00:36:45,818

this person makes $50,000 a month and you

can see from this business tax return.

863

00:36:45,818 --> 00:36:46,988

So they should pay maintenance.

864

00:36:46,988 --> 00:36:49,058

And then you walk outta motion

hour and they'd be ordered

865

00:36:49,058 --> 00:36:50,468

to pay all kinds of money.

866

00:36:50,648 --> 00:36:52,988

And you'd have a hearing

six, seven months later.

867

00:36:53,318 --> 00:36:53,498

Yep.

868

00:36:53,528 --> 00:36:54,638

And it would be a temporary order.

869

00:36:54,638 --> 00:36:57,758

And there's nothing you could do

because a judge doesn't understand

870

00:36:57,758 --> 00:37:00,428

that someone's business where

they might have 50 employees.

871

00:37:00,833 --> 00:37:04,414

Makes money, but that doesn't mean

that that's the income of the party.

872

00:37:04,531 --> 00:37:05,971

Christine: Oh, y'all,

you have No, it's mind

873

00:37:05,971 --> 00:37:06,271

Hugh: blowing.

874

00:37:06,271 --> 00:37:06,571

Had

875

00:37:06,571 --> 00:37:10,381

Christine: idea how often

judges do not consider payroll.

876

00:37:10,381 --> 00:37:13,801

Like they don't deduct payroll

of a company, any expenses.

877

00:37:13,891 --> 00:37:18,631

They calculate child support and

maintenance and I mean obviously the

878

00:37:18,631 --> 00:37:23,401

other expenses too are egregious,

but payroll of other employees, other

879

00:37:23,401 --> 00:37:28,981

constituents of Louisville, it's just

a fundamental lack of understanding of,

880

00:37:29,158 --> 00:37:32,458

, Hugh: But it's not that, okay,

somebody needs to sit down and

881

00:37:32,458 --> 00:37:33,598

learn how to re a tax return.

882

00:37:33,898 --> 00:37:37,288

The statute says for

self-employed individuals,

883

00:37:37,318 --> 00:37:39,178

here's how you calculate income.

884

00:37:39,418 --> 00:37:45,388

So the legislature has given us a black

and white list of things to look at.

885

00:37:45,388 --> 00:37:50,248

Yeah, you take the gross revenue and you

subtract out legitimate business expenses.

886

00:37:51,193 --> 00:37:54,433

It's not, you don't take the gross

revenue and say, that's the income

887

00:37:54,433 --> 00:37:57,403

and I'm gonna, I'm gonna divide up

all the property and order maintenance

888

00:37:57,403 --> 00:37:58,813

and child support based on that.

889

00:37:58,813 --> 00:37:59,053

But

890

00:37:59,053 --> 00:37:59,113

Christine: it

891

00:37:59,201 --> 00:38:00,479

sure should not rocket science.

892

00:38:01,566 --> 00:38:01,671

Hugh: science.

893

00:38:01,671 --> 00:38:05,421

Christine: And that goes to, we talked

last time about these judges not

894

00:38:05,421 --> 00:38:08,271

having had clients sometimes because

they went from the prosecutor's

895

00:38:08,271 --> 00:38:13,251

standpoint and Jessica Stone was a prior

prosecutor at the district court level.

896

00:38:13,461 --> 00:38:16,701

But just understanding

how companies even work.

897

00:38:16,701 --> 00:38:19,101

I mean, when we were

practicing, I was solo.

898

00:38:19,101 --> 00:38:21,261

I did have a firm, you had a huge firm.

899

00:38:21,441 --> 00:38:24,561

But there is a shit ton of

business decisions that have

900

00:38:24,561 --> 00:38:25,981

to be made on top of clients.

901

00:38:26,233 --> 00:38:31,183

Hugh: I remember we had a, an issue of

substance abuse in a company that was

902

00:38:31,183 --> 00:38:38,893

owned by the husband and the wife and

the wife had access to, she ran the

903

00:38:38,893 --> 00:38:43,573

books and had access to the cash and

control of things, whereas the, the

904

00:38:43,573 --> 00:38:48,643

husband, my client did the operations,

but it was the wife that had the.

905

00:38:49,003 --> 00:38:54,313

Substance abuse issue and was emptying the

bank accounts and was spending money on

906

00:38:54,313 --> 00:38:58,093

things and was, was going to destroy the

business, ultimately destroy the business.

907

00:38:58,153 --> 00:39:03,613

So ultimately, when a business is the

subject of litigation and it has to

908

00:39:03,613 --> 00:39:08,953

be preserved, the court will basically

appoint someone to run the business

909

00:39:08,953 --> 00:39:12,253

or to oversee, to make sure it's

preserved and not run into the ground.

910

00:39:12,363 --> 00:39:14,699

So in order to protect the company from.

911

00:39:15,539 --> 00:39:17,129

What ultimately was its demise.

912

00:39:17,129 --> 00:39:21,149

I filed a motion to place the company in

receivership so the court could administer

913

00:39:21,149 --> 00:39:22,889

and monitor the running of the company.

914

00:39:23,159 --> 00:39:25,319

So its assets were not wasted.

915

00:39:25,439 --> 00:39:25,499

July 29 Cam HW: Yeah.

916

00:39:25,499 --> 00:39:25,739

So

917

00:39:26,069 --> 00:39:26,939

Hugh: simple motion.

918

00:39:26,969 --> 00:39:27,749

Oh, there were two motions.

919

00:39:27,749 --> 00:39:30,329

One for contempt because she had

the wife had violated a bunch of

920

00:39:30,329 --> 00:39:33,839

orders about spending business

money on personal pursuits.

921

00:39:33,839 --> 00:39:36,689

And then to I also asked to place

the company in receivership.

922

00:39:36,689 --> 00:39:38,099

And, and

923

00:39:38,527 --> 00:39:39,847

Christine: you explained

all this in your motion.

924

00:39:39,847 --> 00:39:40,267

I'm sure I

925

00:39:40,411 --> 00:39:41,849

Hugh: explained it in the motion.

926

00:39:41,849 --> 00:39:43,169

I talked about how it worked.

927

00:39:43,349 --> 00:39:45,989

I appeared at motion hour

to make the argument.

928

00:39:46,469 --> 00:39:50,309

I was absolutely convinced that the

judge had not even looked at the motion

929

00:39:50,369 --> 00:39:55,709

when I asked to place to appoint a

receiver to help run the business.

930

00:39:56,549 --> 00:39:58,319

I think I had explained

how it had to work.

931

00:39:58,319 --> 00:40:00,179

'cause the business actually

was located in Florida.

932

00:40:00,179 --> 00:40:00,209

Okay.

933

00:40:00,209 --> 00:40:01,889

So we were gonna have

to involve a Florida.

934

00:40:02,369 --> 00:40:04,739

The question from the judge

was, what's a receiver?

935

00:40:04,867 --> 00:40:05,587

Christine: What Judge?

936

00:40:06,076 --> 00:40:06,826

Hugh: TikTok judge.

937

00:40:07,876 --> 00:40:10,966

So it got denied and ultimately they.

938

00:40:11,536 --> 00:40:12,286

Used up all the cash.

939

00:40:12,286 --> 00:40:15,196

The only thing left from that

business were a couple contracts,

940

00:40:15,196 --> 00:40:16,336

which were still valuable.

941

00:40:16,336 --> 00:40:16,396

Yeah.

942

00:40:16,396 --> 00:40:19,816

And they divided up who got to serve

the contracts for this company, but they

943

00:40:19,816 --> 00:40:24,496

divided up the actual physical property of

a company, which everyone knows is usually

944

00:40:24,496 --> 00:40:26,896

not the bulk of the value of a company.

945

00:40:26,956 --> 00:40:29,026

And it was because all the cash went away.

946

00:40:29,446 --> 00:40:32,686

There just wasn't an understanding

of what a court could do.

947

00:40:32,686 --> 00:40:36,706

It was, I was faced with,

well that's, that's bad.

948

00:40:36,706 --> 00:40:37,486

Let's get a hearing.

949

00:40:37,486 --> 00:40:37,816

What?

950

00:40:37,816 --> 00:40:38,836

I can't do anything.

951

00:40:38,836 --> 00:40:39,766

What do you want me to do, Mr.

952

00:40:39,766 --> 00:40:40,066

Barrow?

953

00:40:40,096 --> 00:40:40,906

What do you want me to do?

954

00:40:40,906 --> 00:40:41,506

Like, what do you mean?

955

00:40:41,716 --> 00:40:41,877

You can't

956

00:40:41,919 --> 00:40:44,979

Christine: order someone to not dissipate

the marital estate if you can't do

957

00:40:44,979 --> 00:40:46,899

it as a family court judge who can,

958

00:40:46,996 --> 00:40:47,686

Hugh: well, they did.

959

00:40:47,746 --> 00:40:48,436

They ordered it.

960

00:40:48,526 --> 00:40:51,466

They were violating it, and so we

couldn't get them to stop violating it.

961

00:40:51,466 --> 00:40:52,576

We filed a motion for contempt.

962

00:40:52,576 --> 00:40:57,076

We are getting a hearing, but in the

interim, this is the marital asset.

963

00:40:57,136 --> 00:40:57,256

Yeah.

964

00:40:57,256 --> 00:41:01,096

That's everything that actually owned

the property where the parties lived.

965

00:41:01,156 --> 00:41:01,246

July 29 Cam HW: Mm-hmm.

966

00:41:01,486 --> 00:41:02,056

It was

967

00:41:02,056 --> 00:41:03,436

Hugh: the entire marital estate.

968

00:41:03,436 --> 00:41:04,666

This was a marriage without kids.

969

00:41:05,536 --> 00:41:08,956

You have to stop it from being

wasted until you can figure out Yeah.

970

00:41:08,956 --> 00:41:10,306

What is going on And.

971

00:41:11,146 --> 00:41:15,286

It just, , it was like my, I was

just an being annoying by asking

972

00:41:15,286 --> 00:41:19,516

the court to actually do something

about it and was just got nothing and

973

00:41:19,516 --> 00:41:20,567

the parties ended up with nothing.

974

00:41:21,369 --> 00:41:24,549

Christine: Which I mean also on top of

that, which is horrific in and of itself.

975

00:41:24,549 --> 00:41:28,839

And if the court, the court absolutely

has the authority to put things in

976

00:41:28,839 --> 00:41:32,019

place or incarcerate people and you

can have a quick turnaround for a

977

00:41:32,019 --> 00:41:34,119

hearing, but also my God should be

978

00:41:34,119 --> 00:41:34,239

July 29 wide CM: able

979

00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:34,599

Christine: to, yeah.

980

00:41:34,624 --> 00:41:35,649

They have the power to.

981

00:41:35,649 --> 00:41:36,009

Yeah.

982

00:41:36,349 --> 00:41:39,319

But my God, what if something would've

happened if you're dealing with substance

983

00:41:39,319 --> 00:41:41,719

abuse and someone had lost their life too.

984

00:41:42,321 --> 00:41:42,566

Hugh: Sure.

985

00:41:42,776 --> 00:41:43,226

Or a kid.

986

00:41:43,226 --> 00:41:43,286

Yeah.

987

00:41:43,316 --> 00:41:44,121

I mean, if you were dealing with.

988

00:41:44,791 --> 00:41:45,421

Kids issues.

989

00:41:45,421 --> 00:41:46,291

Well, what do you want me to do?

990

00:41:46,531 --> 00:41:50,341

I would imagine I wouldn't be faced

with the same thing related to kids.

991

00:41:50,371 --> 00:41:54,601

'cause judges don't mind making rulings

from motion hour on the bench without

992

00:41:54,601 --> 00:41:58,111

a hearing about people's kids, but

protecting a piece of property where there

993

00:41:58,111 --> 00:42:00,931

is a clear system for how to do this.

994

00:42:00,936 --> 00:42:01,106

Mm-hmm.

995

00:42:01,651 --> 00:42:05,431

I mean, when courts do this all the

time, when you're dealing with naming

996

00:42:05,431 --> 00:42:07,501

a company as part of a debt dispute.

997

00:42:07,591 --> 00:42:07,681

Yep.

998

00:42:07,681 --> 00:42:12,421

Or a bankruptcy, a liquidation, there's,

there's all kinds of cases where a

999

00:42:12,421 --> 00:42:15,571

judge has to appoint someone to run a

company or to oversee it, to make sure

1000

00:42:15,571 --> 00:42:18,901

that it's protected until the interest

in that company can be resolved.

1001

00:42:19,294 --> 00:42:22,864

Christine: Otherwise, there's no

incentive for someone to follow the rules.

1002

00:42:22,864 --> 00:42:28,054

And I get that a lot in family

court in particular, that perjury,

1003

00:42:28,144 --> 00:42:29,524

you know, is not really a thing.

1004

00:42:29,524 --> 00:42:31,414

People lie all the time in family court.

1005

00:42:31,414 --> 00:42:33,244

There are no consequences for it.

1006

00:42:33,484 --> 00:42:36,574

Now, obviously our perjury

statute is in Kentucky.

1007

00:42:36,574 --> 00:42:40,024

I'm not necessarily saying people that

lie in family court should go to jail.

1008

00:42:40,024 --> 00:42:42,964

I don't really believe in

incarcerating people to the extent,

1009

00:42:42,964 --> 00:42:46,024

like over incarcerating people

or utilizing that as a tool.

1010

00:42:46,204 --> 00:42:49,534

That being said, if there

aren't any consequences, it's

1011

00:42:49,534 --> 00:42:51,124

almost like it's encouraged.

1012

00:42:51,226 --> 00:42:53,516

Hugh: That's exactly what

the result of this felt like.

1013

00:42:53,516 --> 00:42:53,696

Yeah.

1014

00:42:53,786 --> 00:42:56,096

That the judge denied that motion.

1015

00:42:56,096 --> 00:43:02,576

She set a hearing for contempt, which was,

you know, probably months, months away.

1016

00:43:03,086 --> 00:43:07,766

And behavior not only continued as

normal, but it became more brazen.

1017

00:43:07,886 --> 00:43:07,976

Yep.

1018

00:43:08,006 --> 00:43:10,466

Because, oh, well you tried

to stop me now you can't.

1019

00:43:10,526 --> 00:43:12,026

And that was the end of it.

1020

00:43:12,026 --> 00:43:14,576

You can't go recapture that money.

1021

00:43:14,685 --> 00:43:15,034

Christine: Right.

1022

00:43:15,154 --> 00:43:16,504

Half of nothing is nothing.

1023

00:43:16,795 --> 00:43:17,066

Hugh: Yeah.

1024

00:43:17,066 --> 00:43:17,606

It's gone.

1025

00:43:17,721 --> 00:43:18,011

Christine: Gone.

1026

00:43:18,176 --> 00:43:18,746

Oh my goodness.

1027

00:43:18,746 --> 00:43:18,840

And

1028

00:43:18,874 --> 00:43:21,754

obviously that judge has no business,

in my opinion, in my opinion.

1029

00:43:21,754 --> 00:43:24,254

So low opinion doing high asset cases.

1030

00:43:24,254 --> 00:43:27,549

We don't have many on the bench

that have the, brain function, the

1031

00:43:27,549 --> 00:43:32,149

wherewithal to understand complex

financial issues, in my opinion.

1032

00:43:32,149 --> 00:43:36,809

Again but also that goes to the fact

that I am, I gotta look up how long

1033

00:43:36,809 --> 00:43:39,809

I've been actually out of it, but

I'd say over two years at this point.

1034

00:43:40,199 --> 00:43:43,559

And you're four or five months

maybe since your retirement,

1035

00:43:43,559 --> 00:43:43,560

Hugh: four

1036

00:43:43,686 --> 00:43:44,166

Four months

1037

00:43:44,256 --> 00:43:45,246

Christine: working your ass off.

1038

00:43:45,456 --> 00:43:45,546

Hugh: Yep.

1039

00:43:45,816 --> 00:43:50,496

Christine: But , the role or like the

transition from litigator to advocate

1040

00:43:50,496 --> 00:43:56,436

is one that I kind of want to, if you're

not weird with it, do like a touch

1041

00:43:56,436 --> 00:44:01,086

point every podcast or once a week

kind of about like how it's changed.

1042

00:44:01,116 --> 00:44:01,806

Do you know what I'm saying?

1043

00:44:01,806 --> 00:44:01,896

Sure.

1044

00:44:02,076 --> 00:44:02,466

Yeah.

1045

00:44:02,471 --> 00:44:04,566

Because like for example,

yesterday when you watched

1046

00:44:04,566 --> 00:44:06,096

those reunification camp videos

1047

00:44:06,793 --> 00:44:07,153

, Hugh: Yep.

1048

00:44:07,243 --> 00:44:10,843

I still jump very easily

back into advocacy mode and I

1049

00:44:10,843 --> 00:44:12,193

was blown away that, that I.

1050

00:44:13,468 --> 00:44:18,118

Well, the biggest takeaway right now

from me was that I had my nose down and

1051

00:44:18,118 --> 00:44:22,558

was just working my cases for so long

that I was blind to all these things

1052

00:44:22,558 --> 00:44:23,633

that were going on behind the scenes.

1053

00:44:23,633 --> 00:44:23,913

Mm-hmm.

1054

00:44:23,993 --> 00:44:27,298

Or were going on in other jurisdictions

that I've now learned through this

1055

00:44:27,298 --> 00:44:31,508

project with you that I Yeah, it

was, but that was still shocking.

1056

00:44:31,921 --> 00:44:32,161

Christine: Yeah.

1057

00:44:32,161 --> 00:44:33,271

And it's the same with me.

1058

00:44:33,271 --> 00:44:36,391

Like I really, I know this is

so naive to all the listeners.

1059

00:44:36,451 --> 00:44:39,631

I thought we had a Louisville

family court problem.

1060

00:44:40,021 --> 00:44:42,511

I did not realize it was

a family court problem.

1061

00:44:42,691 --> 00:44:45,981

I didn't realize it was , the judiciary

is out of control and there's no

1062

00:44:45,981 --> 00:44:48,231

judicial accountability problem.

1063

00:44:48,291 --> 00:44:52,951

And yesterday we had a strategy meeting

and had some atrium beers, which

1064

00:44:52,951 --> 00:44:56,791

were delicious at, that's a local

brewery here, but I showed him the

1065

00:44:56,791 --> 00:45:01,694

reunification video from Sebastian and

I think it's Amaya Outta California

1066

00:45:01,988 --> 00:45:02,678

Hugh: Reunification Camp.

1067

00:45:02,948 --> 00:45:03,518

Christine: Yes.

1068

00:45:03,518 --> 00:45:03,578

Yeah.

1069

00:45:03,888 --> 00:45:04,848

If I misspoke, sorry.

1070

00:45:04,968 --> 00:45:05,388

Hugh: No, no, no.

1071

00:45:05,388 --> 00:45:06,768

Just the, the camp part was

1072

00:45:06,801 --> 00:45:08,111

what was shocking to me that.

1073

00:45:08,523 --> 00:45:08,763

Yes.

1074

00:45:08,763 --> 00:45:13,743

In order to heal a relationship between

a child that may have been abused by

1075

00:45:13,743 --> 00:45:17,193

a parent, you send them, you isolate

them from the parent that they're

1076

00:45:17,193 --> 00:45:23,043

bonded to and send them to a camp for

intensive one-on-one time for weeks.

1077

00:45:23,253 --> 00:45:23,403

Christine: Mm-hmm.

1078

00:45:23,643 --> 00:45:27,333

Hugh: With the parent who, you

know, allegedly was abusing

1079

00:45:27,491 --> 00:45:30,031

Christine: or that they were

allegedly alienated from.

1080

00:45:30,251 --> 00:45:32,231

It's just, it was, it's a shit show.

1081

00:45:32,291 --> 00:45:34,241

They've been outlawed in California.

1082

00:45:34,451 --> 00:45:38,821

But I think that's why we have so many

people in the family court reform or

1083

00:45:38,821 --> 00:45:45,161

abolished family court movement that

have such strong beliefs is because some

1084

00:45:45,161 --> 00:45:48,491

of this stuff is happening and a lot of

it's happening, like to pro se litigants

1085

00:45:48,521 --> 00:45:50,231

and a lot of attorneys just don't know.

1086

00:45:50,231 --> 00:45:51,131

I had no idea.

1087

00:45:51,251 --> 00:45:52,661

I had no idea when I was practicing.

1088

00:45:53,025 --> 00:45:53,163

Hugh: Yeah.

1089

00:45:53,403 --> 00:45:56,283

I mean, I'm interested to learn

more about where that came from.

1090

00:45:56,283 --> 00:45:58,383

Did it come from a legislative initiative?

1091

00:45:58,383 --> 00:46:01,863

Did it come from state politics

or did it come from the bench?

1092

00:46:01,893 --> 00:46:04,353

I mean, a lot of those, when you get into.

1093

00:46:05,133 --> 00:46:08,493

Certain kinds of camps or

reprogramming and things, those

1094

00:46:08,493 --> 00:46:11,553

usually are not coming from court.

1095

00:46:11,553 --> 00:46:15,603

Those are coming from some political

agenda and written into state laws.

1096

00:46:15,603 --> 00:46:17,443

So that that would be interesting.

1097

00:46:17,546 --> 00:46:22,676

Christine: from an industry that

makes a shit ton of money in certain

1098

00:46:22,676 --> 00:46:26,126

reunification therapy tactics.

1099

00:46:26,546 --> 00:46:28,976

It's just like the

troubled teen industry Now.

1100

00:46:28,976 --> 00:46:32,216

That's something, it's one of those

things where when you talk about

1101

00:46:32,246 --> 00:46:35,636

it in family court, people can sort

of label you one way or the other.

1102

00:46:35,636 --> 00:46:38,396

But if you talk about the troubled

teen industry, I think now as a

1103

00:46:38,396 --> 00:46:42,296

society, we absolutely acknowledge

that the camps that Paris Hilton

1104

00:46:42,296 --> 00:46:44,516

were going to were disgusting, right?

1105

00:46:44,516 --> 00:46:47,906

I mean, and there was a lot of federal

matching federal funds were given.

1106

00:46:47,906 --> 00:46:52,016

And then there was also the privatization

of it where you had wealthy people with

1107

00:46:52,016 --> 00:46:55,616

children that were quote unquote out

of control, and they were sold a dream

1108

00:46:55,616 --> 00:46:58,676

that just wasn't true and they were

just laughing all the way to the bank.

1109

00:46:59,066 --> 00:47:02,306

But the notion that when

you have an industry.

1110

00:47:02,651 --> 00:47:06,101

That is ripe for money, like

with these custodial evaluators

1111

00:47:06,101 --> 00:47:09,491

and some of these treatments for

people going through family court.

1112

00:47:09,821 --> 00:47:13,051

It just lends to the fact,

or it goes to the fact that

1113

00:47:13,051 --> 00:47:14,521

it could be easily exploited.

1114

00:47:14,731 --> 00:47:15,931

God bless, I can't speak today.

1115

00:47:15,988 --> 00:47:17,368

Hugh: Yeah, no, I, I agree.

1116

00:47:17,368 --> 00:47:18,208

I mean, we see it.

1117

00:47:18,598 --> 00:47:19,078

We see it.

1118

00:47:19,078 --> 00:47:20,758

You see it in domestic violence cases.

1119

00:47:20,758 --> 00:47:20,878

Yeah.

1120

00:47:20,878 --> 00:47:21,328

As well.

1121

00:47:21,358 --> 00:47:26,008

You see just cookie cutter solutions

that, okay, you have to go to this,

1122

00:47:26,038 --> 00:47:29,698

go through this program, and then we

will just, you know that here's your

1123

00:47:29,698 --> 00:47:32,218

package, here's the package deal of

what you're gonna get and what you're

1124

00:47:32,218 --> 00:47:36,448

gonna go through, and that it certainly

doesn't help or solve anything there.

1125

00:47:36,448 --> 00:47:40,228

There are so many programs that people

go through with the court system,

1126

00:47:40,588 --> 00:47:45,268

and I am, I remember one single time

in my career that someone told me.

1127

00:47:45,668 --> 00:47:49,358

That they really found the

court's families in transition

1128

00:47:49,568 --> 00:47:51,458

parenting program to be helpful.

1129

00:47:51,758 --> 00:47:54,818

And my only thought about that

was, oh, bless your heart.

1130

00:47:55,238 --> 00:47:55,358

Amen.

1131

00:47:55,658 --> 00:47:58,508

Like, how in the world did

you find that to be helpful?

1132

00:47:58,508 --> 00:48:00,548

There's a lot of feel good stuff.

1133

00:48:00,548 --> 00:48:03,248

There's a lot of jump through hoops,

there's a lot of money changing hands.

1134

00:48:03,278 --> 00:48:03,368

Mm-hmm.

1135

00:48:03,668 --> 00:48:04,928

About these programs.

1136

00:48:05,911 --> 00:48:09,571

Christine: there's a prosecutor out of

New York that talks about, there were two

1137

00:48:09,571 --> 00:48:10,711

different programs he mentioned there.

1138

00:48:10,711 --> 00:48:12,481

There's batters intervention program.

1139

00:48:12,486 --> 00:48:12,586

Mm-hmm.

1140

00:48:12,666 --> 00:48:15,301

Which if you have a domestic

violence order issued against you,

1141

00:48:15,301 --> 00:48:19,291

you're required by state law to

attend batterers intervention.

1142

00:48:19,291 --> 00:48:20,581

And it's a part of your court order.

1143

00:48:20,801 --> 00:48:23,531

And obviously guess who's

making money on those?

1144

00:48:23,861 --> 00:48:27,581

But there's a prosecutor out in New

York that's like, we have never had

1145

00:48:27,581 --> 00:48:30,371

higher rates of domestic violence,

but we have more people go into

1146

00:48:30,371 --> 00:48:31,931

these batters intervention programs.

1147

00:48:31,991 --> 00:48:32,921

Do they work?

1148

00:48:33,351 --> 00:48:36,381

And then also the Families in

Transition is a program that

1149

00:48:36,381 --> 00:48:37,851

we have here in Kentucky.

1150

00:48:38,061 --> 00:48:42,141

. You file for divorce, you're

required to go to this class.

1151

00:48:42,171 --> 00:48:44,991

That is just complete, in my opinion.

1152

00:48:45,051 --> 00:48:45,561

Bullshit.

1153

00:48:46,288 --> 00:48:46,588

Hugh: Yeah.

1154

00:48:46,588 --> 00:48:52,098

I, you know, to a point you made earlier,

, I'm not an abolished family court.

1155

00:48:52,833 --> 00:48:57,003

Type I I think that there are very

intelligent people on the bench that

1156

00:48:57,003 --> 00:49:00,393

could handle things, and I think the

things that, what frustrated me most

1157

00:49:00,393 --> 00:49:04,203

in my litigation practice were the

things that were messed up were simple

1158

00:49:04,203 --> 00:49:08,538

things that you didn't have to be super

intelligent to understand and that they

1159

00:49:08,853 --> 00:49:11,283

are experts that you get involved in.

1160

00:49:11,313 --> 00:49:15,573

If you have a high asset case,

you, you know, I know the judges

1161

00:49:15,573 --> 00:49:17,373

have thousands of cases, they do.

1162

00:49:17,733 --> 00:49:21,753

I you want to have experts that can

crunch the numbers because the judges

1163

00:49:21,783 --> 00:49:24,963

simply are, you're never going to

have judges that have time to do that.

1164

00:49:24,963 --> 00:49:30,363

So it, I don't, didn't ever think

that it was an issue of intelligence.

1165

00:49:30,723 --> 00:49:35,093

And I also think that, I also think

that there is something to be said

1166

00:49:35,093 --> 00:49:39,353

for when people start going through

a divorce, some basic education on

1167

00:49:39,353 --> 00:49:42,563

how to speak with one another, how to

co-parent how to do all of that stuff.

1168

00:49:42,563 --> 00:49:46,133

But as soon as you turn it into a

factory, that's super cookie cutter.

1169

00:49:46,463 --> 00:49:48,653

And it's sort of like when

they send people to traffic

1170

00:49:48,653 --> 00:49:50,153

school for a traffic violation.

1171

00:49:50,243 --> 00:49:50,453

Oh my gosh.

1172

00:49:50,483 --> 00:49:53,483

You're gonna go in on Saturday morning,

you're gonna look at your phone and play

1173

00:49:53,483 --> 00:49:54,893

games, not pay attention to anything.

1174

00:49:54,893 --> 00:49:56,303

You're gonna get your

certificate and you're gonna

1175

00:49:56,303 --> 00:49:57,503

get out of it and move forward.

1176

00:49:57,848 --> 00:49:59,198

That's what was happening.

1177

00:49:59,198 --> 00:50:02,378

And those same people would go and

bad mouth each other the next day

1178

00:50:02,708 --> 00:50:04,088

and not follow any of the rules.

1179

00:50:04,088 --> 00:50:06,128

So it was an ineffective system.

1180

00:50:06,218 --> 00:50:06,283

Christine: Mm-hmm.

1181

00:50:06,701 --> 00:50:10,211

Well I just think if you put money in

anything then it's gonna lead to the

1182

00:50:10,211 --> 00:50:13,901

possibility of the C word corruption.

1183

00:50:13,901 --> 00:50:17,051

And I hate to use that word 'cause

I do think it's so polarizing.

1184

00:50:17,381 --> 00:50:20,261

But I really think you have to

in some regards follow the money.

1185

00:50:20,261 --> 00:50:23,501

And there are just a lot of people

with their hands out when it

1186

00:50:23,501 --> 00:50:27,221

comes to family court and also

other court ordered treatments.

1187

00:50:27,221 --> 00:50:30,431

I mean, arc is a huge one, which

we can't go down that rabbit hole,

1188

00:50:30,431 --> 00:50:33,911

but in eastern Kentucky, the people

of Eastern Kentucky, I love y'all.

1189

00:50:33,911 --> 00:50:38,081

I know I need to do more of a deep dive

on the stuff I said I would before, but

1190

00:50:38,111 --> 00:50:41,861

the exploitation of people going through

the court system with court ordered

1191

00:50:41,861 --> 00:50:46,301

treatment, whether it be substance abuse

treatment, anger management, treatment,

1192

00:50:46,301 --> 00:50:52,301

batters intervention, DUI classes, I

mean, you know how much it, how difficult

1193

00:50:52,301 --> 00:50:56,831

it is to get a license with the state

to be able to teach the DUI class.

1194

00:50:56,891 --> 00:50:59,261

And it's because there's so

much fucking money in it.

1195

00:51:00,583 --> 00:51:00,733

Hugh: Yeah.

1196

00:51:00,733 --> 00:51:01,753

That doesn't surprise me.

1197

00:51:01,753 --> 00:51:05,413

My, my experience with it though

is that it's sort of similar

1198

00:51:05,413 --> 00:51:07,003

to privatizing anything else.

1199

00:51:07,003 --> 00:51:10,723

When the government has a purpose

for something and then they privatize

1200

00:51:10,723 --> 00:51:12,793

it, the purpose then changes.

1201

00:51:12,853 --> 00:51:18,953

If you have a private for-profit person

or organization providing a service, the

1202

00:51:18,953 --> 00:51:20,783

goal is no longer to provide the service.

1203

00:51:20,783 --> 00:51:21,318

The mm-hmm.

1204

00:51:21,403 --> 00:51:22,433

Goal is to make money.

1205

00:51:22,433 --> 00:51:26,963

So you're going to look for ways to

meet the bullet points of what you're,

1206

00:51:26,993 --> 00:51:29,663

what what you're told you have to do

to get the money, and you're gonna

1207

00:51:29,663 --> 00:51:33,173

look for ways to do it as quickly and

efficiently and as much of a you know,

1208

00:51:33,173 --> 00:51:36,503

just crank people through the system

as possible and it loses its purpose.

1209

00:51:36,503 --> 00:51:40,133

It's the same way when you privatize

jails, you start running into Yep.

1210

00:51:40,133 --> 00:51:43,583

People starving , and nutrition

issues and every, you know,

1211

00:51:43,583 --> 00:51:44,753

corners cut on everything else.

1212

00:51:44,753 --> 00:51:48,323

It's, I, that's sort of how I

saw it, was that okay, this may

1213

00:51:48,323 --> 00:51:49,493

have started from a good idea.

1214

00:51:49,863 --> 00:51:52,023

But this is absolutely ineffectual.

1215

00:51:52,293 --> 00:51:56,833

It's become an industry that I remember

at a time where the families in transition

1216

00:51:56,833 --> 00:52:02,023

program, we were asking regularly

the judges to waive the program.

1217

00:52:02,053 --> 00:52:02,293

Yes.

1218

00:52:02,353 --> 00:52:06,733

And we would waive it where, let's say

your child was 17 and a half years old.

1219

00:52:06,733 --> 00:52:08,503

The parties had been

separated for five years.

1220

00:52:08,503 --> 00:52:12,313

They've been co-parenting very

well, but hadn't gotten around

1221

00:52:12,313 --> 00:52:13,453

to finalizing the divorce.

1222

00:52:13,453 --> 00:52:14,473

They have a Yep.

1223

00:52:14,473 --> 00:52:17,263

An uncontested divorce where

they're not fighting about anything.

1224

00:52:17,263 --> 00:52:20,443

They may be good friends, they may

still live in the same household,

1225

00:52:20,863 --> 00:52:24,643

and you would ask to wave families in

transition because number one, by the

1226

00:52:24,643 --> 00:52:26,683

time they get in, the kid's gonna be 18.

1227

00:52:26,683 --> 00:52:27,673

It's not gonna matter.

1228

00:52:27,733 --> 00:52:29,953

And they don't need it, or

they just don't need it.

1229

00:52:30,133 --> 00:52:33,943

And so we had, for a long time it was

being allowed Uhhuh, it was no big deal.

1230

00:52:33,943 --> 00:52:35,203

And it was a smart decision.

1231

00:52:35,263 --> 00:52:35,383

Yep.

1232

00:52:35,413 --> 00:52:36,553

Let's move these people through.

1233

00:52:36,553 --> 00:52:37,123

Let's get it.

1234

00:52:37,123 --> 00:52:40,123

We're not waiting for these certificates

for people who clearly know how to raise

1235

00:52:40,123 --> 00:52:43,213

a successful child, but the providers.

1236

00:52:43,288 --> 00:52:44,668

It got that changed.

1237

00:52:44,668 --> 00:52:44,758

Yep.

1238

00:52:44,878 --> 00:52:48,178

And made it to where you couldn't have

just complained so much because the

1239

00:52:48,178 --> 00:52:52,798

revenue was less so, and everybody had

to go through it, no matter whether

1240

00:52:52,798 --> 00:52:56,638

you needed it, whether it was a

total waste of time, all of a sudden

1241

00:52:56,638 --> 00:52:57,868

you couldn't get out of it anymore.

1242

00:52:57,958 --> 00:52:58,078

Yep.

1243

00:52:58,078 --> 00:53:02,038

No matter what the circumstances, you

had to continue to attend because the

1244

00:53:02,038 --> 00:53:04,798

providers got mad that less people

were coming through the system.

1245

00:53:04,918 --> 00:53:05,158

Christine: Yep.

1246

00:53:05,218 --> 00:53:09,111

And that goes to you letting

me say my favorite quote ever.

1247

00:53:09,111 --> 00:53:12,501

The road to hell is paved

with good intentions.

1248

00:53:12,921 --> 00:53:13,371

All right.

1249

00:53:13,371 --> 00:53:15,861

Y'all judgy y.com.

1250

00:53:16,131 --> 00:53:19,581

Remember, if you like what we're

doing, like share, subscribe,

1251

00:53:19,641 --> 00:53:24,831

YouTube, Spotify, iHeartRadio, apple

Podcast, you name it, we're on it.

1252

00:53:24,831 --> 00:53:29,301

I'm Kentucky Christine on

TikTok and Instagram, judge y.

1253

00:53:29,301 --> 00:53:32,571

We appreciate y'all so,

so, so, so, so, so much.

1254

00:53:32,871 --> 00:53:33,291

All right.

1255

00:53:33,291 --> 00:53:33,651

Bye.

1256

00:53:33,716 --> 00:53:34,066

Hugh: Peace.

1257

00:53:44,388 --> 00:53:44,678

Yeah.

1258

00:53:44,788 --> 00:53:45,078

Yeah.

1259

00:53:46,543 --> 00:53:46,603

We