Are you feeling overwhelmed by endless meetings and responsibilities as an NGO leader? What if saying "no" more often could actually help you make a greater impact?

Many NGO leaders struggle with taking on too much, leading to burnout and inefficiency. In this episode, Pravat Gurung shares how learning to say "no" helped him reclaim his time, empower his team, and become a more effective leader. If you’ve ever felt like you need to do it all, this conversation will show you a better way.

In this episode you'll discover:

• How setting boundaries and prioritizing key responsibilities can help you lead more effectively.
• Learn the power of trust and vulnerability in leadership and how they can transform team dynamics.
• Gain practical steps to structure your time and empower your team for greater efficiency and impact.

Hit play now to learn how saying “no” to the right things can help you create a bigger impact in your work as an NGO leader!

Resources Mentioned:

Pravat Gurung's Linkedin Profile

Register Now: Becoming the Modern Humanitarian and Development Leader

If you’d like to become more productive, be able to say no and empower your team to make an even greater impact, sign up now for the May 6th course!  You can find a link for more information and to register here!

Discover how saying no to more things can help you say yes to making

a greater impact in today's episode.

Welcome to The Modern Humanitarian and Development Leader podcast, the

podcast, helping humanitarian and development supervisors make a greater

impact by taking control of your time, leading more inclusively and

empowering your team all the while avoiding stress, burnout, and overwhelm.

I'm your host, leadership coach and former aid worker, Torrey Peace.

Are you ready?

Let's get started.

Hello, my aspiring modern NGO leader.

I hope you're having a wonderful week.

And I'm so excited about today's episode because we have a special

guest named Pavatt Gurung.

And in this episode, you're going to learn from Pavatt one, an important

lesson that helped him balance his time,

two, why vulnerability matters and three steps Pravat used to build trust with his

team that that increased coordination and more efficient implementation.

So Pravat Gurung is currently with the Asia Foundation as

a deputy director in Nepal.

He previously served as a political analyst and has also

led USAID funded projects for the National Democratic Institute.

He also has over a decade of experience in print and radio media which has

definitely helped him in this episode.

And before we get into the interview, Pravat is also a former student

of my course, "Becoming the Modern Humanitarian and Development Leader".

He shares some of the impact that the course has made on him and

how it's made him a more balanced leader who is able to empower others

through the skills he learned.

And so if that sounds of interest to you, registration is an open now for

the May 6th course, so please find the link in the show notes to find out more

and how you can also become a modern humanitarian and development leader.

Now onto the interview.

Pravat welcome to the podcast.

And how about we just start by, if you'd like to just introduce yourself

and tell us how you arrived in the humanitarian and development world.

Hi, Torrey.

Thank you so much for having me.

It's, it's a pleasure to be with you on this podcast.

I'm Pravat Gurung, I'm from Nepal.

I've been working in the development sector for the past 12 years and

I'm deeply passionate about bringing that smile on people's faces.

That's what I really enjoy.

How I came into the development sector.

I came in as a as a note taker, if I can say that.

I was a note taker, for the United Nations Development Program in Nepal for

a conflict prevention program when Nepal was just going through the peace process.

And I had just joined in as a note taker fresh out of school.

I was a note taker and that really got me, got my brains working like

governance and conflict and that's, that's how I came into the sector Torrey.

Oh, that's so interesting.

Mm-hmm.

And what a great introduction to, to the humanitarian world.

And, and also you have a background in radio, correct?

I did work at the radio.

That was my first job as a teenager, right out of school.

I was at the radio for almost 12 years as a part-time radio jockey,

and I thoroughly enjoyed it.

That's amazing.

And I know, like you can, I think everyone can hear your wonderful

radio voice, radio friendly voice.

So

I actually don't like my voice so much, but I, I, I hope people do.

Oh, I think it's great.

I think it's perfect for radio.

I can see why you pursue that for a while.

Thank you.

Thank you, Torrey.

You're welcome.

So, yeah, so.

I brought you on this podcast 'cause I know that you have a story that you would

like to tell, and in particular one that it's very meaningful for you because

it happened to you, but also because I think it's something that really brings

out some lessons that we can kind of explore as we go along the way in terms of

humanitarian and development leadership.

Mm-hmm.

And some of the things we talk about on this podcast.

So.

Yeah.

Where would you like to begin in this story of how you arrived

to the leader you are today?

Before taking the "becoming the Modern Humanitarian and

Development Leader" course I would describe my leadership as more

directive and result focused.

As a supervisor, I constantly supported my team, of course, and implementing

programs, but over time I also realized how dependency had grown in the team.

And which also meant I had a lot of things piled up on my plate.

Which, was not a very good feeling, but at the same time I realized that there

needs to be more autonomy in the team.

Especially after taking the course I have learned to be more

scheduled if I can say that.

I have also most importantly learned to say no.

That is something I also keep telling my team members learn to say no.

And many a times there have been where I could not say no where I was

still juggling a lot of work, which is added more to my plate, basically.

This not only created stress, but I could not perform the way I

wanted, which frustrated me even more.

And if solf facto, I could not work more than that, right?

But thank, thank you so much to the course I feel like I, I'm more scheduled now.

But even then I, I keep telling my team also that we need to be

more scheduled, more plan and also to enjoy the process story.

I still feel we are so, into our programming, implementation

our indicators, our progress, our life of program targets that

we forget about the process.

So I, I really wanna focus also on how I. Interesting a process can get if

you make it interesting and enjoyable.

Right?

So that's also what I've been focusing on.

But that has also been an outcome of the coach approach and that

is where I saw our team main input and how we can enjoy that.

'cause if we enjoy that process and take it forward automatically your result

is going to be so much more impactful because you are enjoying the process

and you're also creating that ownership.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I love that.

That's such a great point that I don't think we often think about

is enjoying the process and mm-hmm.

And that you know, a lot of times we're chasing after results, but I

think you're right that we need to, in order to, to take care of ourselves

and our teams, we need to make sure we enjoy the process as well.

Mm-hmm.

I, I'm curious, Pravat, maybe we can go back a little bit.

Before you had this aha moment that you need to say no and, and, and

set a schedule and so on, what were things like for you and your team

before you were doing those things?

. Pravat: It was amazing when I joined The Asia Foundation.

It was very different from a lot of other organizations I've worked with.

And when I came in this 52 million Australian dollar program wow.

It was, it was a big program.

30 plus staff with a lot of national staff all over the country.

And with my habit of not to say to team members that just

added onto my plate so much.

At one point I was just, my calendar was so full.

I had three events scheduled at the same time to which I had

said maybe to two and yes to one.

So no way was I, was, was I be able to attend two maybe meetings

and one meeting at the same time.

Which also I, it, I, I think that was my sudden realization

that I, I cannot do this.

I would go through also recorded meetings sometimes 'cause I would

miss some of the meetings, but, but this was also the time when I had

just joined the organization, Torrey.

Mm-hmm.

And I wanted to learn a lot because different organizations

are, are differently operating.

And because I was the deputy director, there was a lot

of things for me to take in.

Also because the program was already six years old.

So there were a lot of things ongoing.

And then like you said, there was suddenly this realization when I saw

three meetings on my calendar not being able to attend even one of them.

And then I was also doing the coach approach.

And that's when we were also doing the calendar we were doing our

scheduling, asking ourselves the difficult questions like, do you

really need to go to this meeting?

My brain was like, no, you don't think, I think I remember coaching

you around that actually.

You do?

Yeah.

'cause I was like very, very helpful for that.

I'm really thankful for that.

And then in my, in my mind, I kept asking that question is

like, do you really need this?

And my brain didn't even take a satisfaction of a second to answer.

It is like, "no".

I think that's, that was a very good realization for myself and I

now also encourage my team members to use calendar more frequently.

Having things scheduled.

Making sure that you're doing, of course, priorities can change.

But then you can always talk to your supervisor, to your program team members

and do it a little bit more differently.

But having that schedule, I feel, will really help you in your planning further.

Yeah.

And, and so I, I just think it's really helpful, first of all, that thank you for

being so open and, and honest about this.

And I think it's completely normal too.

We see it all the time.

Mm-hmm.

And so, mm-hmm.

I think it would be helpful for those leaders out there who are

struggling with saying "no" right now.

First of all, what was driving you to accept three meetings at the same time?

I mean, you mentioned you're trying to learn, but what, what else do you feel

like was the thought process behind "I need to say yes to everything"?

I think the first thought was, of course, I gotta learn more.

Mm-hmm.

And when you attend these meetings, definitely you're getting so

much information especially as a new joiner to the organization.

There was so much information to seek and everything is so

interesting in the organization.

You definitely wanna keep, you know, try out and things here and there.

But I, I was maybe too excited and accepting all these meetings

is, is the best I can say.

But at the same time, what I also did was, I would say yes.

So I would also get updates on those emails.

'cause if you reject it, you don't get the updates.

But if you accept these invitations or say maybe to it, then you'll get

further updates on your email the recording, the meeting notes and stuff.

So sometimes if I couldn't go to these meetings, I would

still end up listening to them.

And still be getting those information, but the realization of having

three meetings in that calendar was, was a bit too much for me.

But the learning aspect was definitely there, Torrey.

I think it's that want as a leader to have or grasp all this

information that's available.

Mm. But at the same time to make sure that you have the capacity and the time

to actually internalize all that, all those learnings a little bit more better.

I also realize that you need time.

Right, and you need to question yourselves and not just listen, but also have

these conversation with yourself to see like, okay, what is this really about?

What is this topic about?

What is this?

If you're talking about monitoring an evaluation situations, like

what is this process about?

Really questioning yourself and then seeing how this is useful

to you personally for your own growth, for your team's growth,

and for your program's growth.

I think that is what I've really realized in the past few years that I've worked.

Yeah.

And in the course we talk about the thinking behind your actions, and I

think one of the thoughts that you had was, "I need to know it all".

Mm-hmm.

Do you agree with that?

Like I think a lot of leaders have that feeling is Yes.

It's a very \common thought.

Yes.

Yes.

What, what is the thinking that you have now, which helped you make this

transition to what you described now as like being able to better manage your

schedule and help your team as well?

Mm-hmm.

I think my first realization point was with you, Torrey, during our course

time, like I cannot know everything.

It's a human behavior, I guess, that I will want to know a lot.

I'm very inquisitive with a lot of things, be it program management

or operations or finance.

I love data sets, so there are a lot of interests that's within me, but also when

I was talking to my supervisor, who's been very, very supportive and helpful,

he was also of the same school of thought that Pravat, you cannot know everything.

I don't know everything.

And as soon as he said that, I was like, oh, if he doesn't know everything,

which is, you know, like any other human expectation of my team members, it's

okay to not know things is something that he, he told me, which is true.

We're all humans and we have so much technology now.

If we want to know something, Torrey, we can know about it in,

in a few seconds, in a few days.

We have fast resources we can dive into.

And that's what your team is for right?

Is is helping you know more Exactly.

To helping you Exactly.

With that experience, I, and, and I am the something you mentioned earlier,

which I think is worth bringing up because I see this as also a common

way of thinking among leaders, and that is my team expects me to know it all.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

So how did you grapple with that?

How were you able to overcome that thought?

So, so again, with, with my supervisor I had this conversation.

Those conversations really helped me to say like, okay it's okay not to

know, but to learn more if, if needed.

Mm-hmm.

And, and I went back to my team and when they came to me with brand

new information, things I would not know, I would just say like,

Hey, I don't know about this.

Can I come back to you mm-hmm.

After I have the full information or after I discuss it with my senior

advisors, I'll come back to you?

And.

Nothing really happened.

The program really just moved forward and there was no backlash against me saying

like, oh, Pravat doesn't know about this.

It was nothing like that.

I think the team members were very nice and they said like, oh, I'll

send you more information or I'll send you links on how this is working.

'cause I work with like five outcomes and five different units.

So that's a lot of team members and, and a lot of units to be catching up with.

So now I've come to the realization that as, as long as I trust my

team members from day one, cause they're really hardworking and

very independent block of people.

They've been amazing.

And that's that.

I think that has been a very strong foundation for me to build

everything based on the trust that we've created with each other.

I think that that is also very important to you to have that trust.

'cause if you don't, then whatever you do.

Is, is, is not gonna work.

Yeah.

And you'll end up having more on your plate editing documents at midnight.

Well, yeah.

I mean, that's a lot of the reason why some leaders take

on more work as well, right?

Because they're, they're like, I don't trust my team to do the work, so.

Exactly.

That's so wonderful that you didn't have that particular obstacle.

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Exactly, exactly.

And after completing the course, I feel I have become more intentional

about my leadership evolving.

And I think that my leadership style has now been both empowering and adaptive.

I realized that leadership is not just about directing or making decisions, but

also creating a space where your teammates are heard, supported and motivated.

To achieve the best of results.

So sometimes just lending that ear as a leader and just hearing it out

without being a supervisor or without worrying about the budget implications

it might happen, the program, you just need to sit and listen.

Because failure is a part of the process of learning Torrey.

And I feel very strongly that if you don't fail you're not gonna learn.

That's wonderful.

And I know that you and the Asia Foundation Nepal team has been

working towards building this learning culture and like you

said, failure is a part of that.

And I wanna back up a minute again because for, for people who are listening to

this, leaders who are listening to this and 'cause I think, it's such a wonderful

thing that you had this kind of vulnerable conversation with your supervisor.

If someone wanted to have a similar conversation with their supervisor

about needing to know it all, how might they go about that because I

feel like that essentially, it sounds like it gave you permission to not know

it all because you realized like, oh, my supervisor just doesn't know it all

yeah, I think my expectation was the same too.

It is like, oh, my supervisor knows it all when I had that conversation.

So how, how did you start that conversation?

Because that takes some vulnerability to start a conversation like that.

How did you do that?

It it is.

But also there, it, it's, it also depends on what kind of relationship

you have with your manager, right?

Sure.

But also I'm very frank with my supervisor.

I will usually write down notes of how I feel and, for example, if we have a

weekly meeting that we do every week to catch up on what's happening with each

of us to see how the programs are going.

But I also share about how I have felt over the past one week.

And this is something that we have both agreed to do in the meeting.

Be open to each other.

Hmm.

So it's, it's trust exercise too.

No, Torrey?

Oh yeah, definitely.

And during these meetings, I will make sure that I will share with him

some of the notes that I would've taken in the past week to see like, okay, how

did I feel during some of the meetings?

Or was I happy with some of the meetings?

Was I not happy?

What did I thought of it?

Or where improvement needs to be made.

So we discuss all these things.

And my supervisor again very frequently asks not just me, but to all the

team members on their mental health, how are we doing health wise stress?

Is it creating a lot of health issues for us?

And it feels very nice when when your supervisor does that to the entire team.

But at, but at the same time, it allows me to be open.

He's creating that space for the entire team to be vulnerable.

And my advice, Torrey, would be really to learn to listen and embrace vulnerability.

Because it's easy to believe that showing vulnerability weakens your position.

Mm-hmm.

But in reality it builds trust and fosters openness within yourself, I

feel and with your team being willing to ask for that feedback and show

empathy goes a long way in creating a supporting and high performing team.

And at the end of the day, it's, it's human behavior.

Torrey, I, I would like to connect it to human behavior.

If you feel like you're being heard.

If you feel like somebody is showing empathy or care towards you

being vulnerable will, will come a little bit more easily, I feel.

But again, vulnerability in the development context can be

connected to a lot with power.

Also, so I understand when, when a lot of leaders will say like, oh,

being vulnerable is being weak.

Mm-hmm.

Which is not true.

The vulnerability I feel everybody is it will have

different kinds of vulnerability.

It's on how we deal with it and how we share really.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you that, that's such a great point as well.

And, what was it that you told or you said or you asked your supervisor?

Like your words that you used mm-hmm.

That allowed him to then say, you don't need to know it all.

Because the reason I'm interested in that is because I want to

help other leaders think of how they can have this conversation.

So what was it that you had said which led to that?

I would wanna go back to my three meetings and the sudden realization

of I don't need to know everything.

Especially having that very strong trust base with my team members and

the updates I was getting on email.

So I had a very good conversation.

I jotted down in my notebook that I need to talk about this to my

supervisor, otherwise I was gonna forget.

And the next week we had our weekly catch up and I asked him how or

what I should prioritize my work?

'cause I was being invited to a lot of new meetings and I had just

joined the organization and I was setting my priorities straight.

But my supervisor at that point told me that I don't need

to attend all the meetings.

Is is it was.

He actually asked me that I could attend meetings if I'm required in

those calls, but also take a lot of updates from team members was something

that he shared with me and I've been doing that which automatically

has reduced my work schedule.

At least I have not had three calendar requests in a day at the same hour.

Oh, that's good.

And, and the coach approach also, of course, has helped me drastically in

managing my calendar a little better.

And learning to say no, but with good reasons to make sure that your team

members are not, not hurt or, you know, taking it negatively when you're

actually saying no to these meetings.

Right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Such a, such a great thing to learn.

Well, wonderful Pravat.

So you've mentioned all these great changes that you've made, and then

now you mentioned the way you've evolved as a leader to become, I

think you said, more empowering and so what changes have you noticed mm-hmm.

With your team since, like before you started making this more

intentional leadership style and after?

I feel like when you're working in, in a larger team or a bigger team,

your visibility of your teammates automatically go lower 'cause you're

trying to focus on a lot of things.

But I think the first approach that I adopted was to have smaller groups where

it can have one-on-one conversations, or at least have a three or four people

in conversation and not 10 in our group.

Mm-hmm.

So I made sure that that we had these conversations through which we were

able to build our trust further.

Remember that I was a brand new deputy director in this organization.

And coming back to human behavior again, you will not

trust someone very immediately.

Right?

So we were able to build that trust through these meetings that I did

with different units and outcomes.

I also had personally one-on-ones with most of the team members,

all the team members actually.

And that helped build that trust with my team members, which I feel

helped them get those issues and challenges that they are facing,

or at least share the issues and challenges that they're facing with me.

Hmm.

When I just joined, I would immediately give a solution if

somebody came to me with an issue.

But after the coach approach, I, I'm trying to be more aware that

sometimes the solution's already there when your team members come

to you and, and are asking questions and, you know, come up with issues.

They actually have their answers themselves.

So I, I just try to protrude into it nowadays.

Or ask, simply ask them what kind of solution would they see for

this and move ahead accordingly.

But again, the change that I've seen in the team is, is definitely the value

of sharing more and more coordination.

The team now have been really able to build stronger trust, have

more open communication which will also lead to grander planning.

And planning is so important when it comes to implementing our

programs or operationalizing it.

I feel like the team members now because they have trust amongst

each other they're planning better.

Mm-hmm.

And because they're planning better they're automatically implementing

it stronger than they used to.

And also the core value that the Asia Foundation carries of open

communication I've been reiterating time and again, and that is something

that the team has really picked up.

Wonderful.

That's so wonderful.

Pravat, what a great impact that you've made.

And it sounds like they're making more of an impact.

And I'm just curious before we wrap up, what is this, these changes

and, and your leadership style and everything that you've discussed so

far, how has that impacted you and like, let's say your workload and your

overall like day-to-day in the office?

I think thanks to you, the coach approach has been very, very helpful.

It has the tools and mechanisms, some of the mechanisms that we went

through in the course I actually use it in different instances.

The scheduling one, I have used it with my team members to make sure

we can schedule ourselves better.

In the next few years, I hope to create a more adaptable work culture

that can foster an environment where people have the time to innovate.

Because that is so, so important.

Nice.

Be more creative, right?

If you have that creative space, and share these ideas to, to your team

members and not just keep it to yourself.

And I firmly believe that by empowering individuals and encouraging continuous

learning, we can build a more resilient team capable of navigating the complex

challenges that each one of us are facing.

Wonderful.

So well said, Pravat.

And just give you an opportunity also, is there anything you'd like to share or to

say to other leaders listening right now?

Yeah, actually I stepped into the leadership

role just two years ago, Torrey.

So it took me actually at least six months to settle into my new

position and actually be a director.

And I, and I'm sure a lot of new directors who are coming into their positions, new

deputy directors coming into positions.

I, I'm sure they will feel the same.

I was a program manager.

I started as an note taker back in the day.

But my last job was a program manager to come out of that mindset of a

program manager and go higher up and just be supervising the program

management, it was very difficult for me.

Mm. So I just wanna say that leadership is a journey.

Really, right?

It's not a destination.

It's a continuous process of learning.

I feel that I've learned adapting and a continuous reflection on yourself.

Ask yourself those hard questions.

The course, of course was instrumental Torrey, so thank you so much.

That has helped me understand a lot of things, the importance of personal

growth how it connects to our overall work and resilience in leadership really.

So for anyone interested in making an impact in the humanitarian

or development sectors, I would highly recommend that they embrace

the mindset of a lifelong learner 'cause we will never stop learning.

It's, it's continuous process

And like you said at the beginning, enjoy the process.

Enjoy the process.

All right, so I hope you enjoyed that as much as I did.

Pravat has such a radio friendly voice, and it's always a pleasure learning

from him and his experience as a leader.

So a few things that he mentioned included, how he was able to be

able to say no to more work and basically manage his time better.

But he did mention one of those being when he had this conversation with

his supervisor and it sounds like what helped him was, number one, the

trust and relationship he had with his supervisor, but also just being able

to bring it up, which I think is such a great idea that is so underrated,

is just simply communicating what was on his plate and then asking

his supervisor for their thoughts.

And most supervisors, if they're serious about wellbeing, will help you manage

your workload, will help you to say no.

Another thing that he brought up was from the course, that also

helped him manage his time and to say no, and that is scheduling.

And planning according to his goals and the impact that he

wants to create as a leader.

He mentioned, scheduling and planning, but more specifically in the course, we

talk about how important it is to number one, have an idea of what we want to

create as a leader, the impact we want to create, and then that allows us to

be able to better prioritize our time.

So we make sure that we're using our time to make more of an impact.

And then finally, he mentioned among other things, the importance of trust.

He mentioned he built trust with his team through one-on-one meetings, through

team meetings, through telling him that he didn't have all the answers and

trusting others' way of doing things.

Not to mention coach approach type conversations are also great ways

to build trust where we ask others questions in order to find out or help

them come up with their own solutions.

So if you're interested in learning more about Pravat or to contact

him, please find his LinkedIn profile link in the show notes.

And if you'd like to join the course that Pravat took called "Becoming the

Modern Humanitarian and Development Leader", registration is now open.

You'll learn skills to become a more productive, leader, to be

able to say no and empower your team to make an even greater impact.

Sign up now for the May 6th course or find out more information by going to

the registration link in the show notes.

Alright, until next week, keep evolving.

Bye for now!

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