True leadership comes not from domination and control, but from attunement to natural rhythms, deep respect for interconnectedness, and embracing a more humble, spacious approach to guiding ourselves and others.

In this episode, Ben is joined by Mimi Kuo-Deemer. She is a sixth generation lineage holder teaching Baguazhang, and a Qigong teacher with over 20 years of practice. She’s based in Oxfordshire where she teaches and livestreams sessions.

This discussion covers the revolutionary perspective on leadership offered by Daoist principles, offers practical ways to find steadiness and calm in your busy life, and explores a different way of relating to nature and change that moves beyond control and separation.

Links

• Mimi’s website
• Mysticism, sacred and profane : an inquiry into some varieties of praeter-natural exerience
• Might Daoism be a home for you in '22 (and beyond) – Episode 7, with George Thompson
• Who doesn’t want a little peace and calm? – Episode 8, with Martin Alyward
• LeanMind - helping leaders back to clarity and calm.

Welcome to Peripheral Thinking, series of conversations with artist

advisors, academics, activists, all people championing ideas

on the margins, the periphery.

Why?

'cause that's where the ideas which are gonna shape the mainstream tomorrow

are hiding today on those margins.

Today in today's conversation, I speak to, uh, Mimi, Mimi Kuo-Deemer.

Mimi's a teacher and guide of various movement and medica meditation practice.

I was about to say meditation.

Definitely not that.

Uh, meditation and movement practice.

Things like Qigong, you know, in the past some yoga too.

But all her teaching is really rooted in, in Daoist,

understanding Daoist principles.

Now, if you don't know much about Daoism, uh, you should, uh, and this

is your opportunity to dive into it in a little bit more detail in

a, in a way, this is a conversation about leadership, uh, how you lead.

The stuff of your life, how you lead, uh, with your families, how

you might lead the organizations of which we're part of how we

might lead entire countries.

Uh, and the conversation offers a really radical reframe on a lot of those ideas.

You know, if you are like me, you would've, you spend

time in a culture where.

The stuff of our work and the stuff of leadership is often about

productivity and busyness and pushing harder, achieving more.

the Daoist lens offers, like I said, a really revolutionary,

uh, reframe of that actually.

Uh, and at the heart of Daoist ideas is finding a power, and I dunno if they

would use a word power, but finding a, a power and a steadiness in in simplicity.

In humility, in quiet, in a kind of nature.

So understanding and acting as nature would really revolutionary

ideas really for the, given the culture that we live in.

Also, you know, timeless ideas and a perfect example really,

of the peripheral thinking that we're talking about.

You know, like I said, these are ideas which exist on the margins for many

of us, but they're timeless ideas and extremely powerful ideas too..

And this conversation gets into all that.

You know, on the one hand it's simultaneously practical.

Some very simple things you can start incorporating in your day to day

to find your way more to a steady and calm, whatever you are busy.

But at the same time, I hope it inspires you with some of these bigger

ideas to, you know, pointing you to this quite revolutionary reframing.

Um, I found the conversation really inspiring.

In fact, it inspired me to, um, start a new little project of my own

actually, which I hope will help you.

Also find your way back to Carmen Carty.

If you go to our website, Buddha on the board.com, you'll find a little

link to some information on there of a project we're starting called Lean Mind.

Um, which I said takes a lot of its inspiration from

this conversation with Mimi.

And you know, many of these other conversations I've had on peripheral

thinking and much of the work I've done myself over the last.

Uh, 10 or 20 years.

So, you know, if you are prone to suffering from bouts of overwhelm

and uh, you know, wishing to find your way back to steady and calm,

whatever you are, busy, go to the website better on the board.com.

Have a look at Lean Mind.

We might be able to help you.

But for now, um, I hope you plug in and enjoy this conversation with Mimi.

Mimi, thank you for joining me on Peripheral Thinking.

It's a pleasure to be on this podcast and really nice to see you, Ben.

the conversational seed of this podcast, um, goes back a few months now

actually to about June time in 2024.

So pretty close to sort of five, six months away.

And we were having a conversation, uh, over a picnic table, uh, in the, in the

southwest of France, uh, coming to the back end of a retreat, which we'd both

sat, uh, with Martin Elwood, who Martin has been a guest a few times on the

podcast, and is a long-term teacher of mine and, and a teacher of yours too.

Is that right?

Mimi?

Yeah.

Yeah, Very drama teacher.

I remember that moment very clearly.

Ben sitting there at the end of the retreat.

Uh, and there was something that you shared in there, which

was a, um, a, a teaching from the.

Uh, from the Da Ching, you have to, uh, excuse my pronunciation.

Uh, which just was really, it kind of, it really landed for me.

It kind of offered a really insightful, different lens on leading, which is

one of the things I'm really curious about as a theme for this podcast

and this podcast and how we lead, well personally, how we lead others

well, particularly in times of, you know, extreme upheaval and change

of which, you know, we don't need to kind of name all of those things.

There's a lot of that going on.

Uh, and so I think the, the conversational thread, in a way goes all

the way back to that and exploring that further, but only come back to that kind

of specific verse a little bit later.

The specific chapter that I was referring to.

'cause like I said, it was, it was really resonant for me.

Uh, but maybe just before we, we get into that, maybe so.

Uh, one of the things we were just talking about before we started

speaking the, the, the room you're speaking, Tom, speaking from

really exudes a beautiful calm.

So where, where are you speaking from today?

My room is in the northwestern part of my home, which is in

Oxfordshire in a village called Stones.

And this is the room that doubles is my office, as well as the room that I often

do a lot of live stream teaching from.

Uh, it has some objects that have come from different places.

The scroll.

Lots of people often ask about that scroll.

It was from my mother who was given it, by a calligrapher.

I'm not sure how famous or, not very famous at all

that calligrapher might be.

Uh, but I quite liked it.

And, um, it's called, it, it's a line from the book of Changes, the Aging,

and it says, um, tin, which means the way of, sky and Dao, the way of heaven.

And, all things is responsive to diligence.

Good work.

sincere effort.

Uh, so I, I kind of like that because it encourages me as a person to feel

that if I'm gonna be in harmony with the way things are, earth and sky and,

and all things, all experience, I can't just sit back and put all my thumbs.

Uh, there, there is some contribution daily, a commitment to, uh, a type of,

of doing and being, that does reward, does feel like over time I can be in

harmony with that, that source that way, the way of nature and sky and earth.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

So you made reference to teaching space.

So, uh, what, what conforms the, what, what do you teach

is maybe the simplest question.

But, you know, I'm finding that a funny question to be asked lately

and how to respond to it because it's evolved and it's continually changing.

I am more comfortable now saying I teach, uh, internal martial arts.

And a lot of times when I say internal, people are very confused.

So I'll say martial arts for short.

Um, and I'm teaching a lineage of Jiang, uh, that I'm now the

sixth generation lineage holder in, in this tradition in practice.

But I also practice Tai Chi, which is a really well known internal martial art

Chen.

I have a deep, long love of Qigong, which I've also been teaching.

It's the Chinese energy intention cultivation practice, uh, that I've been

practicing for over 20 years now, and been teaching it probably for about 15.

And I teach, uh, dharma teachings meditation and Buddhist wisdom.

And that is really coming more forward as a, a very,

symbiotic, aspect of the Qigong.

It feels a complimentary, it feels like the things that I love both about Qigong

and, um, contemplative wisdom practices.

Share a lot of foundational, um, juiciness and, Aja Suto,

another very, well-respected monk in the Teter Baan tradition.

You've sat a retreat with him.

He's also a, a big lover of Qigong.

And, feel that he's really helped me bring together my love of

dharma and my love of, energy work.

Uh, so on some form, of course these are external movements.

I see these movements, uh, kind of manifest externally.

But you were sort of talking to the idea that there is an internal

martial art there, and I'm just curious what the relationship

then is between those two things.

Yeah, that is a, a, um, a difficult to answer

question in some ways because.

The internal martial artists also have differing opinions about what

actually is an internal martial art and why is it internal versus something

that is classified as external.

Uh, but classically in Chinese, martial arts worlds, there are

three primary internal martial arts.

One is Tai chi, one is Jiang, one is Chen.

I practice all three.

And the, the, the main distinction that I can point to for listeners

that's useful is that in the internal martial arts, there's an equal

emphasis on martial application,

like the fighting forms as well as spiritual cultivation, meditation,

and health and longevity.

So there's, uh, a lot of attention given to how the practice improves or

supports the health and wellbeing of a person, organ and meridian health

through, through, um, circulation, through postural alignment, through,

uh, balance of yin and yang.

Uh, strength mobilization, uh, softness, firmness, uh, and

then all of that also is a, a beautifully, meditative practice.

And a lot of the imagery that is used in a lot of the names of forms that are

used, are drawn from the natural world.

They're animal forms or they use imagery from nature.

And so the, the spiritual meditative aspect could be, uh, a, a word that

I quite like that I've recently been using, panenhenic it's, um, it's

a term developed by, uh, professor of eastern religions from Oxford.

And it basically points to a sense of when an individual loses one

sense of individualism, in, in res response to the, uh, powerful

presence in unifying na uh, quality of nature, nature mysticism.

I mean, it's let, it's subtle, it's humble.

It's, it's, it's discreet.

Like the Tai Chi master looks like water, looks like they're just flowing,

but their power is immense, right?

And their strength is often unparalleled to an external

martial arts practitioner.

So this also brings in qualities of the, the philosophical, uh,

underpinnings that Taoism, but you know, aspects perhaps also of

other contemplative traditions.

Buddhism, but Daoism in particular is very, known for the emphasis on, the Dao

being that which cannot be named right.

It's, it's mysterious, um, but it's also the most like water, but humble.

Daoism, um, can't, it's very difficult to define exactly what Dao is.

And, and in part it's because, here's another fancy word

for you, apathetic, right?

It is a religion that is, uh, or a belief system that is defined by what

it is not Dao dao is, um, unnameable.

It is, uh, the mystery.

you know, it can be no adhere or be conformed and

confined to no shape or form.

It's a formless that is the most a, a able to move through the tiniest crack.

And so it's named and it's understood by what it is not apathetic.

Um, it's quiet istic.

It's, um, main principles and teachings are effortless action, right?

Which I can talk about later is, uh, a key concept, simplicity, humility,

naturalism or innate nature, attuning to it, and doing practices that help

one, cultivate, the innate nature.

That is everything we are without the social conditioning,

And, and, and so, you know, these could be nice, uh, things to hear, nice ideas

that, from the peripheral thinking mind come, come more to the fore.

When we hear them it's like, oh, that's enticing.

That sounds interesting.

But something like Qigong, something like the internal martial arts, although

they may have health, uh, benefits, they may have, you know, remedial effects

or preventative effects primarily on things in conditions like arthritis.

They're also coming at it from these very core Daoist, uh, linchpins

of humility, of effortless action, of simplicity, of quiet, of the

mystery, of the, the unknown, of the nameless of, uh, the innate nature,

the naturalism that is, the thing we see happening, you know, in nature.

But yet somehow human tendencies have evolved such that we get cut off from

that, or we get so mired and, and stuck in the, uh, the, the thicket

of our views and our opinions and our, our ways of trying to manage

how we move through society, right?

That we, we lose touch with how, you know, the basic things

like, oh, how is our breath?

Lose touch with, oh, when the seasons change, the temperatures, the light,

the, the, uh, the conditions externally are changing and as you were saying,

trigger an internal change within you.

Right?

And, and very often the me western medical world, the response

to that is, treat the symptom

and eradicate the pain somehow.

But don't try to do anything that would prevent it from recurring.

Just mask it

bandaided.

Whereas within the DAOs traditions of these practices, Qigong, internal

martial arts, et cetera, there's Chinese medicine, there's this

invitation to, become more attuned to what is happening seasonally.

What is happening in my body that changes?

How can I humble myself to, these shifts and changes and cycles and not

feel that I am separate from them?

Apart from them, not governed by them.

and in a, in a sense, just bow to them, respect them and say, okay, right, this

is changing seasonally or bow to them.

Like, oh, my age is, I'm getting older.

My age is, is that, which requires a little bit more care and attention

rather than, you know, continuing in the same kind of gallivanting, bulldozing,

aggressive watching, clinging, pushing, you know, um, ambitious way that we may

think we need to continue and do well

into our eighties.

where whereas, you know, maybe there's, there's a different

approach and I think this is where.

For me, the internal martial arts, Qigong has so much ri richness is

that there is this physical component to it, and there is in that physical

component, a, a, a real reverence and, and way of seeing our physical

manifestations is quite sacred because they are attuned to, and part of, and

inextricably linked to all things.

Like there's that interdependency, there's that interconnectedness.

And if, you know, leadership is a, a theme that I think we are gonna be

looking at a, a, a really effective, uh, leader within sort of these arts

or within Taoism is someone who has as a goal that attunement to, The changes

within nature, the sensitivity, the deepening respect, the bowing to, uh,

an honoring of the small place one has in this great expansive universe,

rather than what traditionally, I think since enlightenment thinking has taken

hold, which is a very domination model, uh, you know, we're given, we're given

nature to be the stewards of it, right?

Um, it's something that we can take from and, and if we're not taking

from, we have to take care of it.

Whereas the Daoists are like, mm, no, that takes care of itself.

And, and if, if we just take care of our place within that, um, then

we can align with it, harmonize with it, and feel more, attuned to

it and make decisions for ourselves and for the greater good that are

from a, a, a, a, a less ego-driven place, and from a, a more humble,

quiet, but very generous and virtuous and spacious, and aligned place

this sort of subtle but very profound shift, which needs to happen

in, in kind of one's perspective and the kind of invitation really about

how somebody would step into that.

And the, the last thing, which was just in my mind, uh, you were talking

about, uh, the, this kind of sort of subtle difference of, of nature

and you know, whether it's kind of posten, post-enlightenment thinking,

but I'm sort of conscious of, or, or reminded of the thing that nature

in the dictionary is described as.

it's everything other than humans.

And so somehow that we are separate and so, and you know, in some form,

like you kind of made reference to, oh, it's something we need to take care of.

But obviously the other thing which is then stitched into all

the cultural understanding is that we are separate from it.

Uh, uh.

And so you in the, in the best sense of that, it's something that we look

forward to in the worst sense of that it's something that we take from,

uh, but actually the, the thing that you were talking to, which is really

subtle but profound difference.

No, no.

It will take care of itself.

This is not something for me to control, you know, for me to command and control.

It is alive, it is breathing, it is, it is, it is doing

all that it does as I am.

So how I take care of myself.

And so that bit, I'm kind of really keen to, to come back to just one

other thing you made, you made reference hopefully, uh, this being

peripheral thinking and we're talking about the ideas on the margins, but

I'm also really curious about, I.

people following their kind of the own, their own kind of threads, the little

bits of ideas and thoughts, which are pulling them from the periphery

of their own selves a little bit.

And you kind of made, I, I was just kinda curious, how did you find your

way back to this teaching or into teaching and this, this as a, as a kind

of line and work of offering for you?

What was your route to this?

Oh, serendipity.

I don't know how else to accredit it.

Attribute the, I think.

It's just, uh, something I'm, I, I found myself unable to not do.

Um, and being certain teachers meeting, being, being exposed

to ideas and practices that were just deep, deeply impactful.

And, it would be a long story and I don't think that

interesting necessarily.

Um, and it might take the whole, the whole conversation, but the, I

would say serendipity, it just plays a, a, a huge role and, and chance.

Um, and particularly for me, internal martial arts was very serendipitous.

I was only really interested in, in Chong before that yoga and

meditation, and I.

Fantasized about learning sword and Tai Chi one day.

But I was like, how am I going to do that?

I live way out in the middle of Oxfordshire.

I'm not gonna find a teacher, don't wanna travel into London anymore.

Um, but I would love to, but I'm just not gonna even put myself

there because what are the chances?

And at that time, I was close to 50 years old, like, how am I gonna learn a

new form and practice so sophisticated?

But I wanted to, I, I was going to Beijing to help my mother move and good

friend of mine said, if you're gonna be there for a period of time, you have

to go and do some sessions with Leo Fu.

Just have to, and I trust this person a lot.

I've known him a long time.

So I did.

And initially my thought was, I'll learn some Qigong from him and I.

He's a B wag master.

And within minutes of meeting him, I was laughing in stitches.

I would just felt so happy.

And he, he worked privately for two hours a day, for a couple weeks and he

started teaching me something so radical to my know, knowledge and understanding.

And I'd done a lot of dance and movement and yoga and chi go, this just kind

of kicked it all out of the water.

Like, um, and I was like, what is this?

This is incredible.

And that, that was serendipity.

Like the fact that we met the fact that we had a good relationship,

that it was an easy one.

It was able to continue despite the pandemic.

We started on Zoom, uh, and I had time because of the pandemic.

And I, I really just dedicated myself more and more to these practices.

I just was.

It was sort of an obsession, I would say, for a.

think one of the things that's kind of interesting about that

though, which then links to what you were talking about before, um, you

know, your answer is serendipity.

Uh, and, but in, in a sense, our ability to kind of notice the invitation to

serendipity requires a stillness, requires a slowness, requires a, uh,

like if I, if I'm, if I'm sort of stuck in the kind of ego dominant

sort of narrative and mindset, which is sort of still super pervasive, uh,

across, you know, the kind of cultures that, that we live in, it's kind of

much harder, I think, to, to be aware of those little kind of invitations

and signals, which in a sense we are being presented all of the time.

Uh, but the busyness of our time, the busyness of our living, the, the

idea of separateness means we are just blind to those things a lot.

A lot.

And actually maybe part of the, the kind of root in for people.

'cause one of the things I'm curious about is, is how people, you know, what

is the kind of process that people might go through, they might recognize Oh.

I'm, you know, really kind of overwhelmed by busyness.

I'm really sort of stuck in a lot of these kind of ideas about leading

in this way, working in this way, controlling in this way, because

I'm really kind of caught up in the thickets, like you were talking about,

uh, you made reference to, to a moment ago where these thickets in the mind

or, or wherever, you know, how do I kind of find my way out of that?

And actually that, that needing a stillness to be able to, to kind

of navigate beyond and needing a stillness to be able to find the

clues and cues of, of serendipity.

And I'm kind of really curious about that point of transition,

that point of change, and how people find their way to and through that.

Yeah.

Oh, if I only had an answer, gosh, I

would be, I would be, uh, I.

Yeah, I think, it's a paradox you have in, in a sense, there's the last thing.

Anybody who is busy, stressed and caught up in the, how many

gonna get through this day?

How am I going to accomplish things on my list?

The last thing that that person then probably needs is,

I gotta start doing this to

make, make more, more chill.

I have to do this to create the space in my life.

It's just going to create another level of stress, of

trying, striving, of clinging.

Um, and, and we see this a lot, you know, there's wellness burnout.

and people say, I know meditation is really good for me.

And I, I'm, I've been doing it for 20 minutes, for two weeks,

and it, I just get so stressed.

and, and so, in part it's this possibility to commit in small ways

to something that feels like, actually when I do this, there's a little

brightness in my heart when I do this.

The, the churning and the, the constant grind slows down for a

moment and I feel some relief from it.

that said, the initial entry, entry and foray into any kind of these practices.

Will make you come face to face with the, the loudest and most

calamitous aspects of heart and mind.

Right?

And so that, that can be, a foil for a lot of people.

So, you know, I often think, how have I gotten here?

And I'll say, the one thing that I haven't ever really lacked

is, um, is, is discipline.

Like I, I'm, I'm good at that.

Like I will sit down and meditate.

And when I, when I started 2002, I did it for five minutes a day.

And that gradually increased to the maximum that I could do.

17 minutes, I could not get 17 minutes.

And that was for a long time.

And I didn't have any fancy medi meditation, mindfulness techniques.

I.

All I did was count down from 50 to 20, counting the exhalations

and the inhalations.

Inhale, exhale 50, inhale 49, exhale 48, get to 20.

Just count the exhales till I get to zero.

And that would usually take me about 70 minutes.

And I'm like, now what do I do?

Increase the number.

again, and then my leg was asleep and I was uncomfortable.

but it was nothing fancy.

But I, I just committed to it.

'cause I was like, what else am I gonna do?

I, but also there was a sense that by the end of that, like,

I did focus my mind for a moment and I was able to just do that.

And, and that felt good.

and I think it's the accumulation of commitment to something that.

That can lead to a shift in that spaciousness or that quietness.

and, and I think it's, it's a tough one these days because committing to

something new, whatever your age might be, means something else has to give.

Right.

And, and very often life feels so full that it's very hard to

find what what's gonna give.

and, and then these practices are gradual and cumulative and, you know, ng

fu, Chinese martial art or uh, Buddhist martial art, ng fu it is a slow process.

You know, you repeat the same thing again and again and

again and again, again, again.

And it's like a lot of people are gonna give up 'cause

it's not very interesting.

And so, I, I don't ever wanna make these practices Feel like they

are, um, panaceas, like they're, they're going to cure everything and

they're, they're great for everyone.

that said, it's like, a little bit consistently over time

is how change happens, right?

And how something like space might open up at a, at an opportune moment or at

the right moment, that serendipitous crossroad, and we have that capacity

to recognize like, oh, this is the, the direction I'm gonna go now.

but I think again, it, it's a very, uh, beautiful opportunity, but it's, you

know, it takes a certain commitment.

And, uh, actually I wrote down, um, one of the chapters I opened it actually,

the chapters in the Doubted Jing.

I read, I just like to flip this book open sometimes.

And this morning it flipped up into 43, and said the softest

thing in the world overcomes the hardest thing in the world.

Non-being can enter places without openings Through this,

I know non-action is beneficial.

The teaching without words, the benefit of non-action.

Few in the world can reach this

' cause It's, it, it is just like the scroll.

I was saying the way of harmony takes effort, takes

diligence, it takes commitment.

The trouble is, oftentimes dedication, discipline, commitment.

These come with loaded burden Expectations that we put on ourselves

or we feel from the outside.

And if you come back to the DAOs teachings, not non-action,

it's not not doing anything.

This is the, a big misnomer.

It's Non-action is doing just the right amount without getting caught

up in pushing struggle, strife.

When you do something and it becomes a burden and it's stressful.

That's not the teaching of wwe.

Um, I wrote down something, this is WWE best understood.

One stops doing everything that prevents one from being

what one is, nothing extra.

It's misconstrued as passivity to the point of atrophy.

Um, and often related to kind of like this quiets where you just

withdraw, but it's really just doing the least required of uh uh,

what you need to do that's least required to do something well.

But that stop, you stop doing everything that prevents one from being what one

is, and that points to another concept.

I mentioned innate nature, Suran.

And very much like the Buddhist teachings, which you were asking

about what are the, the crossovers.

In a lot of the Buddhist teachings, there's so much offered as to how

we understand these patternings and imprints and, and, um, habitual energies

that get accumulated in our hearts and our bodies and our way of thinking.

And it's to start recognizing when we get triggered by things and, and an

unskillful pattern emerges, And oh, we can recognize, oh, that, that's

causing ill will rather than goodwill.

I'm gonna sit with that.

I'm gonna soften that.

I'm gonna get embodied and see what, what I can, um,

what new options I might have.

Similarly, in Daoism, the practices are called the Arts of the Heart.

And everything in these practices, uh, that include meditation,

breathing, visualization, movement, very, very key movement, practices,

diet, lifestyle, all of these are arts of the heart aimed at radically

deconstructing the energies that we've accumulated and how our nervous

system or our heart is kind of just getting pushed and pulled and jerked

around and reactive in situations.

And it's that radical deconditioning, all the social constructions

that have been layered on us again and again and again.

We see these more and more clearly when we breathe, meditate, do energy work,

eat well, have a certain lifestyle, and then those start deconstructing, right?

They lose their grip on us, they fall off, and then.

As a result, we don't return to just some infantile kind of ignorance.

We return to a clear, bright knowing of all the patterns that we have of,

we know everything, you know, that has accumulated to make us who we are.

But we just let go of the, the, the named self that is conditioned in

the world and we come to the nameless sense of who we are that is full

of potential, um, bright, spacious, clear, right awake, a heart that's

very free, But again, these are arts that take gradual processing, gradual

application commitment and time, and the result of that is humility.

Great egolessness.

Right.

And, and humility, not necessarily just as like a humble servant to a

higher being, which is how Christianity is often looking at humility.

But humility in the sense of, you know, there's a famous scroll in,

um, Chinese painting called travelers through mountains and streams.

And humility is like this huge towering mountains gigantic, taking

up the whole scroll streams big.

And then only if you look super, super, super carefully, you're

gonna see these tiny people.

And, and humility as just this, I think in the data J system, like the sign

of a great person is to, to know their place in the relation to greatness,

right?

As the small place in relation to greatness.

It just comes with a sense of, you know, we don't have to push and strive.

If someone disagrees with us, it's okay.

beautiful leadership in, in ancient times was a person

who had the view of fastness,

Who could step outside of the small petty I, me my tendencies to constrict

around personal problems and see, not, not devalue the personal problems, but

to expand and, and also see the greater unfolding of things and un grasp around

the tendency to contract around oneself.

a great leader has the view of what's described in the first chapter of

the da Jing, that which is named and nameless, and that which is source

and ma like source and manifest like.

These two emerge from sameness, but differ in name is what it says,

The sameness is called mysterious.

Mysterious, and again, more mysterious.

The gateway to all that is wondrous.

A great leader understands the importance of the every day in

the practical and the named, but doesn't lose touch with the unnamed

and the source and the vastness and the mystery, and one can help point

others in that direction of, you know what, it might seem like this

is the end all, and this is like, what's going to stress me out so much.

But actually, if you just walk outside and you look at the trees

or you stand on the ground with your feet connected to the earth, you

do some movements that help you.

You settle and clear.

You can recognize a, how that can change really quickly.

The shift in the, the, the.

the changeability and the impermanence of, of those moments of tight grip.

And, and b, you can also see the interconnection to, to more than

what is just happening at that smaller individual type experience.

And then that, that, that it opens us up to a, a much wider relationality.

and going back to kind of practices that just for someone who wants

to, to have a little taste right, but may maybe feels overwhelmed,

like, oh, how do I commit to this?

Even just those little moments, like if we stand on the earth,

the reason the earth can make us feel more grounded is because.

The earth is solid and firm because it doesn't contend with being below

water, flows down, doesn't try to rise up, And that humility that

just, you know what, don't take myself so seriously if I'm wrong.

If I lose this, if I don't get this job, if I don't achieve what

I'm trying to achieve 30, 40 years from now, am I gonna look back on

this and really wrestle with it?

It's gonna be important at the moment of death.

And, and, and that's the importance.

It's like, ugh, the ground is just quiet and low and humble.

I, I, I can connect to that and, and maybe I can just loosen

the, grip of, you know, gotta do this now, gotta do that.

Now, I haven't done this and people are relying me on for

this and I haven't done it.

And you know, normal, totally normal.

But just go and stand.

Connect to aspects of the natural world that are unfolding within

you without you even for a moment, pretend like you're a bird.

And, and, and this is playful as well.

Play really gets, uh, it, it disperses tension really quickly, right?

If we just monkey suddenly,

or a cat or tiger, right?

There's this, this immediate sense of, oh, all my silly human problems.

maybe I don't have to just keep looking at my human tendencies.

Maybe I can just learn from the courage of the tiger, the, the

cheekiness of the monkey, uh, and.

Yeah, it just expands and it, it Connects us to something greater

than just the human psychology and the human realm, which I

also powerful and underrated.

I mean, it just brings, um, it kind of just, we just, if this, the

examples you're giving there, just weave in a completely different sort

of spirit to the, to the kind of feelings and ideas of struggle and

straight and needing to turn up in a certain way, or being seen to act in

a certain way or whatever it might be.

All of that sort of stuff, which we are sort of contracted around

most of the time actually.

Just the idea of like, you were sort of pointed to there, bringing that sort of

spirit of the kind of animal, the play, the cheekiness, whatever it might be, it

dissolves, you know, a lot of that sort of story dissolves in the face of that.

I remember actually a, a really powerful moment on a retreat.

My first retreat with Aja Suto.

you know, he's, at the time I think he was 73, 74, so he's been, he'd been a

monk for 40 years and he was referencing a practice and Chi go and he kept

saying, he kept calling it something that I was pretty sure was inaccurate.

She hit, it's like, gosh, she's really mispronouncing this, do I say something?

So in a small group meeting, I, I decided that I would, I was like,

so I just wanted to ask if the practice that you're describing is

this, or if there's another name that I don't know, but I'm pretty

sure then we, he said, no, no, no.

It, it, it's, it's whatever he said, Jiang,

but I'm pretty sure it's Jang.

Like if we're just standing like, like almost like a tree.

And it was like, oh, you know, Mimi just let go of it.

It's not important.

But then I was like, no, no, I'm gonna say something.

And initially I saw him kind of say, no, no, no, I'm, I'm

very sure, uh, it's this.

And then when I said, no, I, I'm pretty sure it's called John drunk.

And his almost without thought he said, huh, just shows how much, I don't know,

like ego

and just like, wow,

that was cool.

Yeah.

As, as a kind of, teaching is a really powerful thing.

'cause if we think about, if I think about how I am, you know,

whether it's with kids, my kids, or, and or in work or those

things, actually the tendency to.

Feel like I know or be seen to know or be in those kind of positions

is very strong, you know, actually.

Um, but the kind of power that comes from, in many ways, the kind of just

the decades of practice and experience to go, oh, I am fixing on an idea here,

which is just my little understanding or misunderstanding of what it may be.

How can I kind of pull back?

How can I find pause?

How can I be grounded?

How can I find the stillness?

Uh, is such a sort of actually an, an enlivening and powerful response, you

know, if we can practice our way to it.

Yeah.

And I watched him do that many times in those small group meetings it.

was just incredibly inspiring.

And I thought, you know what?

This is a leader,

spiritual leader and, and that maybe, I don't know what your

next question might be, but for me, this ties into chapter seven,

which is a chapter I happen to have memorized.

I'm memorizing certain chapters, but this one.

On the retreat, I was thinking about it again and again 'cause

I felt like it summarized the 10 Days of Barton's teachings.

Um, it says Heaven lasts long and the earth endures.

The reason Heaven and earth can endure and last long is because

they do not live for themselves.

Thus, they live long.

Therefore, sages and sages are leaders in Taoism, like they're the,

the, the ones who can really, um, go, you can go to for wisdom, right?

Therefore, sages place themselves last and so become first step outside

themselves and so become complete.

Is this not because stages are selfless, thus they're able to fulfill themselves.

I.

And it's just Heaven lasts long and the earth endures.

Like things continue.

Why do they continue?

Why are heaven and earth able to last long and endure?

' cause they're not tied up with I me money.

They're not constricting around themselves like because they

do not live for themselves.

Heaven and earth are just doing their thing.

They're not preoccupied with what's in it for them.

If it's anthropomorphized, but it's not even, you can't do that, right?

It's inevitable, it's unnameable, it's whatever.

But the sage then follow, follows the way of this modeling.

Like this is the perfect model and places oneself

last and so becomes first.

It's like in that moment, Aja Suto.

He, he just owned it, right?

And he said, oh, just show us how much I don't know.

And in that instant, I was like, you are a leader.

Like, wow, I have so much steepening respect for you.

And I, I saw him say, do that again and again with, with different situations.

Like someone was really complaining about the monastic sexism and

how he was always leaving first.

And then the, his co-teacher, a woman former nun, would follow him out.

And she was just really upset by seeing this and really upset by this.

And at the end of this he said, Hmm, it upsets me too.

And that night he made sure she left first.

It was just beautiful.

It was just like, switch.

But step outside themselves.

And so become complete like.

decentering the self, And everything in wellness these

days is the exact opposite.

It feels like it's about how is this gonna help me?

How am I going to feel better?

How am I going to be more kind?

How am I going to be more relaxed?

It's all about me, me, me, right?

But the sage steps outside, oneself, it places.

And so becomes complete.

It's like, actually everything is interconnected, That's

the view that leaders have.

Everything has, uh, interrelationality and, and and co arising.

And in seeing that, Vince importance around what I'm feeling, who I am, what

my views are, doesn't really matter.

Then you can just be goofy.

You can be, because, you know, like the end of your life again, like what this

mortal, this cycle of the life, if you wanna go there, like, how are we, how

are we gonna orientate that direction?

Are we gonna be like, uptight and like, Mm what's in it for me?

Or are we just gonna be like, huh, I wanna soar like a dragon.

Yeah, I wanna move like clouds.

Yeah, I mean there's just the, the, the importance of playfulness I

think was sort of just, is such a sort of lost, I was say underappreciated.

Uh, but it's, it is a, it is a, it's a lost element of being adult, isn't

it, in so many kind of places and spaces, really, the kind of importance

of a, and actually just as you were kind of pointing there, how just.

Powerfully sort of disarming and resetting and cleansing.

It is actually just to bring some spirit of play, but we've kind of wrapped

ourselves up into a cultural story that, you know, the leader acts in a certain

way, is seen in a certain way, dresses in a certain way, speaks in a certain

way, does things, doesn't do things.

You know, actually the idea that actually that play might

be an important part of that.

The idea that as the leader, I don't actually, the, the point is

not having the answers and kind of acknowledging that and putting my, you

know, just everything we were talking to there in, in, in, in verse seven.

It's just, you know, these are such kind of powerful judo flips, uh,

of ideas and thought they really, and, and really resonant with it.

The, um, ancient sages, uh, were often called down from the

hermitages to become emperors.

Wouldn't that be wonderful if a chairperson, a president, a

leader, whatever organization or country or nation or religion,

would have spent time in nature

harmonizing understanding their role in and their place in cycles

and changes and seasons of things.

And only by that thorough understanding of, the powers that

play and, and the small infinite ismal place that we have in that,

you know, as a hermit looking out to the night stars every night.

I.

Growing from the land, eating from the land, you know, harmonizing

with the changes in weather.

Only then would you have the, uh, mantle to lead.

And so I guess in, in a sort of, to sort of tie it all together to

kind of bring, to bring, to bring to an end, because I think a lot of that

is sort of really, really inspiring.

If we are talking, you know, if somebody, somebody's listening in a

way, the kind of invitation that I guess in a sense is, you know, if you

are not in a hermitage at the moment, you are not in there, but equally just

the opportunity, like you were, you were talking to actually to, to, to, to

go outside, to stand with your feet on the ground, to take a moment, you know,

without your shoes and socks on, just to feel the steadiness, the steadiness

of the, of the ground below you.

To, to take a breath, to slow down, to find an opportunity to

let some things go, whether they are ideas or beliefs or stories.

Just a just a sense into, um, the kind of opportunity that might come from

a, from a commitment, a discipline to practice like you were talking about.

Don't forget to pay.

Brilliant.

I think Mimi, on that note, we should end.

Um, thank you so much for coming and sharing your wisdom and your,

uh, your, your ideas and teachings.

It's hugely appreciative.

And actually just hearing the hearing you talk your way through it

actually, I found extremely sort of calming and settling and grounding.

Um, so yeah, I, I really appreciate you, you coming and sharing your wisdom.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And my last thing would just be saying, play and decenter yourself.

Just, uh, feel yourself connected to more than just you.

That's the, the movement towards leadership is the view of vastness.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

I will link to all of your kind of teachings and, uh, all

of the places people can find you in, in the show notes.

But thank you again for coming.

I really appreciate it.

Pleasure.

Thanks again for inviting me.

I hope you enjoyed that conversation with Mimi.

now if it, if it kind of resonates with you, do check

out other similar conversations.

There's one much earlier with, uh, another dais teacher

called George Thompson.

Uh, you might also check out the conversation that

I had with Martin Alwood.

Uh, there's a couple of those.

Uh, the, the, the more recent one is very relevant.

Martin and I, or Mimi and I share, share Martin as a teacher.

Uh, so you may enjoy that.

And as I mentioned early on, you know, if, if a lot of these ideas resonate

for you, if the need to find a way back to clarity and calm, whatever the busy,

whatever you are busy, whatever the stress is and overwhelm of your day,

if there's a need or wish to find that.

Then head on over to our website, but are on the board.com.

Uh, you'll find some information there on a new little thing we

have launching called Lean Mind.

Uh, I hope that will help you find your way back to steady and calm.

But meantime, thanks again for your time, your ears, your listening.

Uh, we really appreciate it.

If you think somebody else would benefit from sharing in this

conversation, please do share it.

Uh, until next time, we wish you well.