In this episode of Dancing Class, choreographer Gary Clarke shares his journey from growing up in the mining village of Grimethorpe to founding his own dance company. Gary reflects on childhood memories of the miners’ strike, discovering movement through rave culture and baton twirling, and the teachers who helped him along the way. He shares stories of training at Northern School of Contemporary Dance, performing with Lea Anderson, and creating politically charged works like Coal and Wasteland. The conversation explores resilience, class, creativity, and how dance can tell working-class stories.

Content Guidance: Reference to drug use

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Hi, I'm Laura. Hi, I'm Rachel. And this is the dancing

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class podcast made possible by the British Academy,

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Lever Hume Small Research Grant Fund and Leeds Becket University. In this series,

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we invite dance industry professionals from working-class backgrounds in the UK

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to talk about their experience of dance education and their careers. We're

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interested in discussing the ways in which dance can be a vehicle for class

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mobility in the UK and contributes to discourses around leveling up. This

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series also researches the role of dance as a catalyst for social and economic

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progress. Some of our discussions take place while dancing and are recorded

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with spatial sound. This creates an immersive effect and the best listening

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experiences via the use of headphones. These recordings will be labeled as

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binaural. We hope that you enjoy the series.

1:00

Thanks for tuning in. Welcome Gary Clark.

1:05

Welcome. How lovely to have you with us today.

1:08

Hello. Very excited about the conversation.

1:10

Very excited. Yes.

1:12

Um, tell us who you are Gary, what you do.

1:16

Um, so I'm Gary Clark. I'm the artistic director of Gary Clark Company. Uh but

1:21

used to be a dancer, choreographer, and now artistic director.

1:26

Fantastic. Tell us where you're from.

1:30

So I am from a small coal mining village called Grimethorp, which is just on the

1:35

outskirts of Barnsley in South Yorkshire.

1:38

Um and Grimethorp was home to one of the biggest uh coal mines in the UK. And the

1:44

whole of the village was built around that coal mine. So one way or another,

1:48

everyone in that village was connected somehow to the coy. So I've grown up

1:52

very much around it. And was your uh family working there?

1:56

Yes. So I'm from a whole line of coal miners.

1:59

Um so my granddad, my great-granddad, all of my uncles.

2:02

Mhm. Um yeah. So it's kind of deep within my

2:05

veins coal mining. Actually a fact. My dad when he first

2:10

came to the UK in uh probably like early 50s was a coal

2:17

miner in Wales for so he was a co he went down the pit for

2:21

5 years before migrating north to the cotton fantastic

2:27

it was a big it was a big industry was huge really massive and go on

2:32

yeah and so growing up Gary when did dance come into your life

2:36

okay so this is a long one Yeah, we we're ready for it.

2:40

2:43

which is when I was born. So, I am a Thatcher's childh.

2:47

Y um so grew up in this kind of working

2:50

very very lower workingass mining village.

2:53

Um and it was a very thriving village around that time. I remember as a young

2:58

boy it was full of kind of noise and color and prospect. It was really it was

3:02

kind of bustling because of the work there, because of

3:05

3:09

miner strike happened, the infamous strike. Um, and so this

3:14

kind of very colorful, vibrant village turned into this kind of

3:18

hot spot for politics. Yeah, it was one of the main areas where all

3:22

of the kind of protests were taking place simply because of the the size of

3:26

the cure. There were thousands of men that worked there.

3:29

So, it kind of became this real um energized political space. And

3:34

Grimethop's a really small village. So suddenly when you've got thousands of

3:38

people taken to the streets protesting. You feel it.

3:41

We really feel it. So as a young boy, I was only four at the time.

3:45

Well, I was five when it ended. But some of my earliest memories as a

3:49

young boy is going on those marches and taking to the streets and seeing

3:54

the kind of vividness of the coal miners,

3:57

but also the police presence as well in the village. Um the noise, the media was

4:03

rife. Yeah, we're talking daily. Yeah.

4:06

Um, and the minor strike stretched for a year and a half. So, what started off as

4:11

quite a positive galvanized movement started to become really desperate. So,

4:17

people were losing money, they were losing hope,

4:20

despair kind of started to infiltrate into the the energy of the village and

4:25

then it got really tough and I remember it being really tough. Um and the

4:30

village started to kind of um almost turn on each other. You know, there was

4:34

a lot of family splits that were happening. You'd get bricks thrown

4:37

through your window. Oh my god.

4:39

There was constant chance at midnight. Maggie, Maggie, Maggie, out, out, out.

4:43

You know, it was really, it was very hot and very desperate.

4:48

Stressful. I Yeah, it was really stress. I mean, it

4:51

hit the village really hard. And I think at the beginning a lot of the miners

4:55

thought they were going to win the strike and

4:57

there was a lot of positivity and then slowly but surely we knew that wasn't

5:00

going to budge right

5:02

and that's where it's the reality started to hit was that people were

5:06

going to lose their jobs but not only their jobs their livelihoods their

5:09

community their purpose you know it wasn't just about work.

5:12

Yeah. It was everything that surrounded it

5:15

and identity to a certain degree. Huh. Absolutely. and pride, you know, like

5:20

taking pride on on on working and keeping the country

5:24

thriving through through industry. You got to remember coal mining was just one

5:28

part of industry in this country which is now desolate. I mean, if you

5:32

look at the kind of landscape of industrial Britain, it's flattened. You

5:35

know, there's nothing there and call centers are there.

5:38

Um, so that's that's kind of where my kind of political kind of um interest I

5:46

think comes from. Mhm. Um, but access to arts and creativity

5:50

5:55

mean, this was way before Billy Elliot, you know, you just didn't do it.

5:59

And also, a life in dance or art, you know, that just wasn't heard of. You

6:04

were expected to go down the pit. That's kind of what you did.

6:07

And it was very binary in them days. You know, the men were men, the women were

6:11

women. And that actually terrifies me now.

6:14

I can imagine. you know, the thought of actually going underground and and being

6:18

expected to do that back. Oh my god, that was it was just

6:23

unthinkable. Um, so it's not like I've come through a

6:26

traditional routine to dance. None of that kind of dance training when you

6:30

were young was available to me. But what we did have in the village was um minor

6:35

galas and local discos. And there were like major troops.

6:40

I love it. I always wanted to be in a majorette troop and have a kazoo.

6:45

We've had students who've come through major things like and it's amazing.

6:50

I'm one of them. Yes, I used to be a major.

6:52

Really? Did you have a Did you do baton twirling?

6:55

I started off on baton and then I upgraded to mace which is like the big

6:59

Oh, the big leader at the front. Yeah. But I was selftaught.

7:03

Oh my gosh. Cuz all the major troops were were

7:06

girls, you know. So boys again just didn't do major. The minute I picked up

7:10

a baton, I mean, that started to raise eyebrows, you know,

7:14

about my sexuality, but also the kind of person that I was, you know, that I was

7:18

creative. So, how old were you when when this was

7:20

happening? About eight or something. Um, no, younger. I mean, my first bat

7:25

twirling started when I was Well, it was the minor's gala, so we're talking like

7:28

three, four, four year olds. Wow. And I used to march behind the

7:32

majorettes onto the pitch, but then they they used to go on and do the

7:35

competitions where I had to stay behind cuz I wasn't part of the troop. And were

7:38

there other boys that joined in or was it just you?

7:41

Just you. Abs. Yeah, there was just me. So again,

7:44

suddenly it was, you know, my my dad in particular was very he wasn't happy at

7:48

all, you know. Um but Grimethought Majorettes um saw me,

7:53

you know, I used to be at the side of the football pitch while they were, you

7:56

know, doing their competitions and they tried to get me in. They tried

8:00

to poach me and said, "Look, we've got, you know, your son's

8:03

they recognized the talent. That's so brilliant." And my dad said,

8:07

"No." Oh, no.

8:09

He just was like, "Absolutely not. That is just not happening."

8:13

I still He has regrets now, I think. Right.

8:16

Because I could spin that bat on. I bet you can.

8:18

And you know, I still can't I can't if there was I'd be able to show you now.

8:22

I'd love to see that. I I love baton twirling. I think it's amazing.

8:26

Oh, it's lovely. It's so Yeah. But I remember when I was dancing

8:30

for uh Liv Lauron, Bal Lauron up in Newcastle and she found out that I could

8:34

bat twirl and the next day she came in and gave me a cane.

8:36

Yeah. And two weeks later I'm on saddles while

8:39

stage spinning spinning. So it comes in use totally.

8:44

It comes in useful. I'm surprised you haven't put a section

8:47

in one of your pieces. It's um it's always in and out. it. It

8:51

almost made it into horse mate, my autobiographical solo, and then it took

8:54

it out and it's never quite made it, but I can still do it. And that's I guess

8:57

that's where I started my thirst for movement and skill and performing

9:01

and performing. Yeah. Um, and we used to have local

9:05

discos and stuff. But as soon as that the minor strike ended, which is kind of

9:10

the next part of the story really, uh, this very colorful, vibrant village

9:15

that I'm talking about just absolutely collapsed. Like many villages and towns

9:20

around the UK. The scars still run deep. You know,

9:24

you've just to look at Britain now, working-class Britain, and you can see

9:27

these communities that are desolate. They're still underfunded,

9:30

underresourced. the kind of level of health there is

9:33

really low, unemployment's high and this is 40 years on, you know, this

9:38

is 40 years on. Um, so I guess, you know, coming out of

9:43

9:48

especially growing up as a youngster. Yeah.

9:51

Um, there was just absolutely nothing. There was no prospect. There was no um

9:56

career pathways. All the miners lost their jobs. Um the government turned

10:01

their back on us. Um so it was quite bleak. Yeah. Um

10:06

10:10

deprived village in Europe. Gosh.

10:13

And we live and when you live through it, you just don't understand that. Um

10:18

and I made a piece of work called Wasteland which um looked at the

10:22

downfall of industrial Britain and the the rise of the rave culture. And as

10:26

part of that research, I I I went back and got photographs of Grimethorp in the

10:29

'90s, and I was showing the commissioners for

10:32

my new work. And I remember some of them saying, "Oh, is this like after the

10:35

war?" Wow.

10:39

No, the people in those pictures are my next door neighbors. Like, I know

10:42

they're still alive, but it just and that really shocked me

10:46

because for me that was really normal, seeing these images of boarded up houses

10:50

and kind of, you know, almost like bomb sites, you know? It was it was it was

10:54

horrible. Um so kind of grime thought became

10:59

um yeah an absolute wasteland and drugs was brought into the village. Um alcohol

11:05

abuse, addiction, crime. Oh gosh.

11:08

Um domestic violence, you know, it was just really um

11:14

when things fall apart, everything falls apart.

11:17

Impacts everyone. Absolutely. The whole community just

11:20

fell apart and people were turning on each other because they had no other

11:22

outlet. They had nowhere to turn. Um, so I was kind of witness to this as

11:28

a young teenager. Yeah. Yeah.

11:30

Not really knowing what where to go, how what to do, feeling quite lost like many

11:36

of us were. But it's at that point that I discovered

11:39

movement because I knew there was something inside of me

11:44

and it was either drugs, death or dance. Is that the title of your next piece,

11:51

Gary? Maybe that's the title of this podcast the title. Yeah,

11:56

but it's really true. I mean, I'm not, you know, I'm not joking. I say, you

11:59

know, a lot of my friends became drug addicts, some went to prison, some did

12:02

die, you know, and so it was like, okay,

12:06

and I think and unconsciously I made that decision that that path wasn't for

12:09

me. There there had to be another way. And

12:12

so I started to move my body and it was in private and it was in your bedroom.

12:17

In my bedroom. It was when the illegal rave uh culture started to come through.

12:21

was my brother who's 7 years older of which I'll talk about in a bit cuz

12:25

there's a there's a whole story there. Um he beca he was actually part of that

12:30

generation that was leaving school as I was still at school.

12:33

Okay. Okay. So imagine coming out of school during

12:36

that time. Nothing.

12:38

Absolutely nothing. All the apprenticeships had gone. All of the

12:41

training there's no jobs. Where do you go?

12:45

Uh so my brother became an illegal raver.

12:49

Yeah. And so he was taking over with all of his friends the kind of derelict

12:53

warehouses and workspaces that once had workingass industry.

12:57

Yeah. He was then changing that into a

13:00

landscape of color and dance and expression and emotion and music

13:04

and energy and community. Yeah. For sure.

13:07

You got you know when when you decimate a community we'll try as best to come

13:11

back together in whatever means that is cuz that's what we know.

13:14

So my brother was part of that movement um and used to go vanishing for days. I

13:19

mean, sometimes we'd not see him for like a week and then he'd come back and

13:22

none of us really knew where he'd gone, right?

13:25

And he was raving. He was out raving and he'd just bounce from one rave to the

13:28

next and gosh. And just dance all night long.

13:30

Just dance for days and then and then come back

13:33

and sleep. And did he ever dance with you at home,

13:35

Gary? Was there ever any of that interaction?

13:38

No. But what he did do is bring God, now I can tell my age, but he brought

13:43

home the mixed tapes. Oh, beautiful.

13:46

Yeah. Um, and they used to have kind of handdrawn scribbles on the front from

13:51

the rift that had been like uprising or techno beat, you know.

13:55

Um, and I remember finding these tapes and playing them and feeling a rush

14:01

through my body of this new music. Before this, it was kind of pop music

14:05

and dance music. So, but suddenly this very, very urgent, quite political,

14:10

loud, repetitive music was, it was so inspiring. And I

14:16

started to thrash around. Wow.

14:18

And that's kind of and but I didn't know I was dancing. I didn't know even dance

14:23

existed. But my body was doing something and I knew it was an awakening. I just

14:28

knew that it was something and it was working and it was a tonic.

14:32

Yeah. I can feel it now as I speak about it

14:34

cuz it's so it's still there, you know?

14:38

Yeah. sort of like super knitted into your fleshy being in a way like

14:43

and like wow what is this feeling it was a feeling it was a

14:47

so I mean it wasn't a dance training as such it was feeling

14:50

knowing in your body that that's what you do

14:52

and then the feeling after I've done it was the rush of it and going oh and you

14:55

know that feeling you get when you dance and your whole muscles and your blood

14:58

fizzes like lemonade it was that feeling you know

15:01

and the endorphin rush from it and and off and

15:06

you know like that endorphin rush is also going to raise your positivity as

15:10

well. Your mental health is going to go absolutely in a positive direction for

15:16

sure. I I always say to people I I've seen the

15:18

transformational change that dance can have on people.

15:21

Yeah. Yeah. Because I've lived through it. Like I

15:24

really value movement and dance for it for its um human purpose.

15:29

Yeah. Yeah. And and human purpose. Yeah. Absolutely.

15:34

the connecting of of ourselves to each other as well as what it can absolutely

15:39

do in the sort of environment of your own body and then the environment of of

15:44

the world around you bodies together. Yeah. Bodies together.

15:47

And just to just for clarity then Gary so this was like dance was never at

15:52

school or was it

15:54

or was it? Uh no no uh it wasn't uh they had a performing arts department

16:00

um but it wasn't like dance training you

16:03

know it was quite light and it's just also was something that wasn't available

16:06

to me or so I thought it wasn't available to me

16:09

so it wasn't part of PE no no it wasn't

16:12

we did have performing arts but it yeah we had performing arts and there was a

16:15

dance studio so it did exist but I but it was never offered to

16:21

someone like me right

16:24

and I it was never an option to me. And it was only by chance that I I actually

16:30

got caught in the dance studio with my brother's tape.

16:32

Oh, brilliant. By the performing arts teacher. Amazing.

16:35

Tell us the story. So,

16:38

come on. I knew that there was this studio.

16:41

Again, I didn't even know it was a dance studio. Looking back now, I'm going I

16:44

don't quite know what I knew that was, but it was a room with a mirror, you

16:48

know. Um, and I was in like year nine at high

16:52

16:55

95. And it was the year Grimethop collure

16:59

shut down. So the Grimethopy closed and we all got taken onto the hill to

17:05

watch the uh the chimneys come down. They put dynamite underneath it.

17:09

Oh my god. And we all had black balloons. Um

17:13

and we all got taken up there and they counted it down 3 2 1 and the whole

17:17

village watched it. And then we saw the collure just collapse. And I always

17:21

remember hearing Willigartha schools on like a hill. I remember hearing this

17:26

huge like howl. Yeah.

17:28

And it was the miners howling, you know, with grief.

17:31

Yeah. Of course. Um

17:33

so Gra came down and we we released hundreds of black helium balloons into

17:38

the sky. Yeah.

17:41

And in my work, Cole, I referenced that. There's a whole black balloon section.

17:45

Um, so it was that year in particular that's when I took my tape into school

17:50

and pressed play. Yeah. So I came out of my bedroom and into the

17:53

dance studio into an actual studio

17:55

because around that time as well I was quite lonely. I was you know I was gay.

17:59

I was struggling with my sexuality. So there was a there was all of that

18:03

um you know woven into you know we talk about intersectionality

18:09

right there. Um so there was a lot going on. Um but I

18:13

finally, you know, came out of my bedroom and at lunchtimes I would, you

18:17

know, spend some time on my own. Um in that middle ground, the year nine.

18:24

Yeah, it was a particular time for me. Um so I used to kind of hide myself

18:29

away. Anyway, I found myself in this dance studio putting the tape in,

18:33

thrashing around at like lunchtime. Then the door opened and Miss McCainan came

18:38

in and said, "What are you doing?" And I

18:40

thought I was in trouble and I kind of went, "Oh god, nothing. Nothing." Really

18:43

embarrassed. She said, "No, what are you what are you doing?" Oh, beautiful.

18:46

I've just heard the music. What is it? I said, "I don't know. I'm just playing

18:49

my brother's tapes and I'll I'll leave the studio." She was like, "No, come on.

18:52

Show me like what is it?" So, I showed her and um

18:59

that was the beginning. Yeah. And she went, "Okay,

19:04

um do you want to do it in in assembly?" Wow.

19:08

Oh my god. And I was like, "No." I said, "I really" and she said, "No, I think

19:12

you I think you should like, you know, I think you should do it." So, I plucked

19:17

up the courage. Um,

19:19

that's incredible. That is I sllicked back. Um, I had some like wet look gel.

19:24

I put my hair back. I put some sunglasses on and a tracksuit.

19:27

Oh my god. I pressed play on a tape recorder and I

19:30

flashed around on stage on stage for the assembly.

19:33

For the assembly, which back in the day, um, you know, was really new. I mean,

19:38

there's a boy on stage thrashing around. Yeah. To uprising rave music.

19:44

Amazing. With no set steps. I mean, one could

19:46

call it improvisation. Absolutely.

19:49

Without any score, without any idea of where you're going. Just follow the

19:53

music and feel. So, I did that and then I I remember at

19:56

the end of the song I just stopped and I was heavy breathing and it went quiet

20:01

and then all of a sudden they all just screamed. Gary went, "That's amazing.

20:05

Oh my god." And I was like, "Okay." they'll run on stage and join you.

20:09

Well, that's kind of what happened. I mean, from there, Miss McKinnon then

20:12

said, "Do you want to do another song? Like, do you want to do two?" And I was

20:15

like, "Okay, fine. Let's do two." And then it was three. And then suddenly, I

20:18

was kind of putting on my shows in assembly. And then,

20:22

um, oh my gosh. So,

20:24

but this was all by myself. So, but then I found this girl called Emma Anderson.

20:28

Emma, if you're listening, you know, real inspiration. Um, Emma joined me and

20:32

was like, "Okay." So, we became dance partners. But then of course because we

20:36

were two we I couldn't just we couldn't just do what we wanted anymore. So then

20:40

I had to say well if you put your arm here and if you put your arm there and

20:43

so you started choreographing

20:45

started choreographing before you knew the word

20:47

before I knew what it was but top of the pops was big around that time as well.

20:51

So and there was a lot of if you take your mind back to the '9s top of the top

20:55

of the pops was full of dance music with very little lyrics

21:00

you know. Yeah of course. No, no, no, no, no.

21:04

Long gone was songwriting, but music and and beats and um kind of dance. That was

21:09

that was the So, there was a lot of movement. If you look at videos from

21:12

back at top of the pops from that time, it was full of dance.

21:15

It was there was always a routine, wasn't there? It was a real performance.

21:19

Yeah. Totally. So, I started to learn some of that and

21:21

we'll put that into the kind of um you know, assemblies.

21:25

And then um a big turning point for me was Miss McCain without me knowing uh

21:30

rang Bowser College. Oh, brilliant.

21:33

And said to Liz Mcpollen and Jenny Miku were running the course, I think I've

21:38

got a dancer. Um and it's a boy. It's a guy.

21:43

And as I as I know it, um that very day they got in a car and they drove to

21:49

school to see you.

21:51

And I got called out of mass. They said, "Can Gary Clark come to the office,

21:54

please?" And I was like, "Oh my I don't get what I've done.

21:59

And I walked in and there they were, these two amazing women, and they sat me

22:03

down and said, "Uh, we're going to we're going to take you now and we're going to

22:06

take you to Bz College and we want to show you around."

22:08

Oh, that's so beautiful. And were you 16 then, Gary?

22:12

Yeah. So, this had moved on. So, I'm uh No. Um 15? No, it was in my last year at

22:17

school because what happened was is academically I was doing

22:23

um I wasn't doing great academically with things like maths, science,

22:28

um you know, all of those kind of subjects. I was struggling, but I wasn't

22:33

a bad kid. I wasn't a bad student. I just had something else.

22:38

Yeah. Um and I and the school recognized that.

22:41

God, what an amazing school. Yeah, they were incredible. They were

22:45

incredible. And so what happened was is after I'd

22:48

gone to Banza College and had a look around and I knew that there was a there

22:52

was a next step. The school knew there was a next step.

22:55

They allowed me to come out of my lessons and go to the dance studio.

23:00

Oh, beautiful. Wow. Which was fantastic to work on whatever

23:04

routine I was doing in assembly. Um, so I didn't do very well. I didn't

23:08

take my maths exam. I had a conversation with the math teacher said, "Do you not

23:11

want to take the exam?" And I said, "No." So she was like, "Fine." So I

23:14

didn't take notes. Get rid of that stress.

23:17

Yeah. Well, kind of. Cuz they all knew the

23:19

school knew. They were supporting me going on. They thought, well,

23:22

he's doing this. He's doing something,

23:25

you know, and it's not in math and science, but

23:27

but they but they valued it. They And there was value.

23:31

Absolutely. In that.

23:33

And did your family know about all this at the time, Gary?

23:37

No. No.

23:38

So, this was really new. Um, and then when I did tell them that I was going to

23:44

Banza College cuz it was decided that's where I was going to go into again. I

23:47

didn't know at the time what what was coming because I didn't know any other

23:50

artists. I didn't know what performing arts was.

23:54

You know, it was not really, you know, I didn't know what

23:57

what that career path could look like. So, it was really new, but I just

24:00

trusted the teachers. I trusted Liz and Jenny at Bzi College. And I trusted here

24:05

my instinct, my stomach. It just and actually that trip when I went to

24:08

college and I walked around and I saw the building and felt the energy

24:13

as a 16year-old it was like oh okay this feels

24:17

yeah this feels like this could be for me

24:19

and it wasn't school was scary for me it was a scary place

24:23

why because of the academia I think looking

24:26

back because I think school um presented to me um an environment

24:34

where pressure I think was put on um me to learn in areas that I knew I couldn't

24:41

excel in. So things like maths used to give me real anxiety. Um

24:45

and I used to get really nervous and it just wouldn't go in my brain. I just

24:49

couldn't compute it. So I used to dread a lot of the lessons at school. It

24:54

wasn't it wasn't a great time. But then in going into a performing arts

24:58

school or college and then feeling that energy and going, "Oh, this is my tribe.

25:02

This is my pe this is my space. I feel relaxed. feel and it was full of that

25:07

kind of creativity and vibrancy. Yeah.

25:09

Um and Barnsley College is actually we I

25:12

took third years there when I used to work here as a university. I used to

25:16

take our third year dance students to the college and we'd be in a studio

25:22

and we'd do a workshop and then they'd perform the the choreography that had

25:28

been made with them and connect with the students. It was really beautiful.

25:32

There's a lot of alumni including yourself, isn't there? from college. You

25:36

still work in dance a lot. Yeah. Because I think um they

25:39

they had really high quality training there. And when when we went there, it

25:43

was about um it was about excellence. It was it was really about trying to really

25:50

train people for the industry with all of its

25:54

struggles and heartache and hard work. like we were working around the clock

25:58

and you know they were really kind of strict with us and disciplined and they

26:02

gave us a lot of reality checks about the competitive nature of the industry

26:07

the landscape of what to expect the training that you needed it was

26:10

excellent it was really really excellent and that's why the the alumni is really

26:14

really high especially from that time you know it was a very it was a very

26:19

exciting time I think for bowser college back then and you had people

26:23

you had teachers that were working in the industry

26:26

um that were tapping into what was out there, coming in and feeding it directly

26:30

to the students. And that felt really exciting that they weren't just

26:33

teachers, they were practitioners and I know you you do the same, you know, that

26:38

it's really important that we learn from the industry and the people within it.

26:42

So that felt really exciting that we knew it was coming right through uh from

26:46

the industry into our training at such a young age.

26:49

So was it at Barnes College where you started watching performance? Yes,

26:53

that's so Liz Mcpollum, dance teacher, within my first god, uh, I'd say two

26:59

months, sat me down with a pile of, uh, VHS's.

27:03

This is the first thing she did. So, she said, "I want you to, uh, stay in here,

27:05

and you're going to watch every one of those videos."

27:08

How brilliant. And I'm 16. I've just left a mining

27:12

village. And the videos I watched was Flesh and Blood by the Chumlies.

27:16

Oh, brilliant. Dead dreams of Monroe men by DV8

27:20

physical theater. The Right of Spring by Pina Bouch.

27:23

Oh, wow. Wonderful. Uh, Ghost Dancers by Chris Bruce.

27:26

Naturally. I mean, I can go on. You know, there was

27:29

a whole list of the great and it blew my mind. Michael Clark Company.

27:33

Yeah. And and I think she gave me these

27:37

because one, she wanted to introduce me to dance, but two, they were political.

27:40

There was something about the choreographers that she sat me down

27:44

with. They were all they all had a message. They all came out of the 80s.

27:47

They all were of a time when Thatcher was in reign. So there was a huge push

27:52

back I think in art generally in the 80s and these choreographers were making

27:57

quite groundbreaking work that were pushing boundaries and challenging

28:00

stereotypes. Yeah.

28:02

And I loved it. But it was such a new world for me.

28:06

But I got hooked and I uh I got the bug and I got obsessed. I absolutely got

28:11

obsessed. And it opened my mind to the possibility of uh

28:15

a life in this. Yeah. And how how dance and art can be

28:20

political and how you can create statements with what you do that it's

28:23

not just decorative or spontaneous, but you can consciously apply yourself to

28:28

movement and shape it in a way that has a message and it can it can create

28:32

change. Um, and like Lee's work and and Lloyd's work

28:37

and DVA and they they all created change in the landscape

28:41

both in terms of dance, art, culture, but politically as well, you know, like

28:46

they were talking and and about issues to do with all sorts of stuff, you know,

28:50

and that that really resonated with me. Um, but then also, you know, watching

28:55

the work of Olston as well and seeing the beauty of of craft and seeing just

29:00

movement as a form, you know, was was really and and Siobhan Davis, you know,

29:04

that that struck a chord with me as well because it also allowed me to understand

29:08

about how to shape things as well and how movement can be a vehicle for

29:13

architecture, which I loved. So then being able to

29:16

kind of put those two things together with my own work is feels really

29:19

exciting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so yeah, Barnesley

29:22

College gave me a lot. But my parents, sorry to go back to that question. My

29:25

parents didn't know. No, it was all quite

29:28

So they knew you were at Barnesley College. They knew you were doing dance.

29:32

They didn't know. Um, they didn't know about my um

29:38

your dancing and assembly. My dancing and assembly. But then once

29:41

started to go into what you were going to do next, the record of achievements,

29:44

can you remember those? Oh yeah.

29:47

Yeah. I've still got my

29:49

I still have it. I can't seem to throw it away

29:51

because it says it's I want to be a dancer. I mean, it actually says what I

29:54

want to do there. Oh my god.

29:56

It says I want to be a dancer or a red coat at Buttons. And I went both,

30:00

didn't we? We all um so yeah, that was um but then when I

30:06

told them that of course they just didn't understand, you know, it's like

30:09

what is dance? All my family worked, you know, they they had what we might call

30:14

real jobs, uh, 9 to5 and it was a, you know, hard backbreaking labor kind of

30:19

work. Yeah. Um,

30:21

so for me to suddenly say, I'm going into performing arts, it was just a

30:24

world that they didn't know about. So shocked uh, but supportive, you know,

30:30

kind of, okay, you do what you do and then we'll just figure out along the way

30:34

what the hell this is. Yeah.

30:36

Um, and then I did two years at Bouncy College, which was incredible. And then

30:40

Liz Mcpollen, um, oh, it's her birthday tomorrow. She's going to be 70, which is

30:45

great. Still, we're still very, very good

30:47

friends. Uh, she took me under her wing when I was 16 and she, um,

30:53

she said, I don't think you should go and be a red car. I think you should go

30:55

and go to university. Wow.

30:58

And I was like, to where? What? What's that?

31:02

You know, university wasn't for me, right? a working-class kid from Grimeth.

31:06

Yeah. University to meant a whole of the

31:09

world. It meant academia. It meant money. It

31:12

meant privilege. Yeah.

31:15

It didn't mean me like what's, you know, what's what's this? Um, so she uh made

31:23

me audition for a place at Breton Hall.

31:28

Leeds University. Yeah. Yeah.

31:30

Um, and the Northern School of Contemporary Dance.

31:33

Brilliant. Uh, and I auditioned at Northern and met the great Naen

31:38

Senior uh, who could see what she could see

31:44

where I was from and that I was raw around the edges,

31:47

but I needed a space to be able to to train and and learn. Um, and I remember

31:53

in the interview feeling I remember being nervous cuz there was a whole

31:57

panel of people looking at me, you know, it was

31:59

Yeah. And did you do a a class at your

32:01

audition? Yeah. So, we did ballet. Oh my god. We got told we had to wear like,

32:06

you know, come dressed in this. Oh god. So, I ended up wearing an all a pink a

32:11

pink all in one with stirrups. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of photographs we

32:16

need to see after this podcast. Totally. I know. And we had to do a solo as well,

32:20

like a 2-minute solo. And I remember Surely that was easy for you, though.

32:23

Well, I just remember kind of pinballing around the stage and every now and again

32:28

kind of balancing and then like leaping and doing a bit of what I thought was

32:31

cunning. It wouldn't be cunning and and just kind of

32:34

and was that was that improvised Gary? No, I think it was shaped cuz laser

32:37

helped me shape it. But I remember it now looking back it's like wow. And it

32:41

was all to the sound of machinery. Beautiful.

32:43

I mean you know heavy breathing and machinery. So I was postmodern before I

32:47

knew it. Of course. Groundbreaking.

32:50

Um yeah. Then they and then I do remember vividly though there was about

32:54

54 in my audition and I think they only took about two of us. Two or three.

32:59

God remember. That's a lot, isn't it? 54. Wow.

33:02

Yeah. Back back in the day. Big these big auditions.

33:05

So that's really reflecting actually how many young people were dancing at the

33:09

time. Yeah.

33:10

It's like the real Houseion days the ' 90s.

33:14

Definitely. And I think for not back then with Northern it was the when you

33:18

used to be able to get grants from your local councils. Um, Nadine was was and

33:26

will always be passionate about uh bringing uh learning and vocation to

33:31

kids that you know have not come through privilege. You know, that's how Phoenix

33:36

started. That's how Northern started that everyone should have access to

33:40

education. Yeah.

33:41

So, I was really lucky in that in that respect that she saw that within me. Um,

33:45

there was a lot of us there that were from working-class backgrounds.

33:48

That was going to be my next question. Yeah. Um, and So did you feel like a

33:52

sense of solidarity then? Yeah. I mean it wasn't like everybody

33:57

was workingass but you know you there was a whole range of people.

34:01

And were there international applicants as well at that? Yeah.

34:04

Yeah. So there were some I mean not like now I mean you know there's a lot of

34:08

international students but yeah there were there were some uh mainly from

34:12

Europe. So like Denmark and Germany and France

34:16

um and then a lot from you know all over the UK. So people that come through

34:20

London but then from Scotland and Wales that came from all over really.

34:24

Um but there was a big kind of workingass kind of crowd of us there.

34:29

The great thing about Northern though is it it you know the culture that it

34:32

builds is such about it's all about welcoming and it's a kind of you know

34:37

back then with the students it was it felt non- hierarchical. So it you know

34:42

you know it didn't matter what background you were from. We were all

34:44

part of the same team. were part of the same

34:47

course the same year. Class never really kind of came into it,

34:52

you know, in terms of it never created tensions between any of the students

34:56

because we had a love for dance and a curiosity about creativity and that's

34:59

what brought us together. Do you think that's what made it non- hierarchical

35:02

just that that combined interest and totally and I think you could only see

35:07

the difference when we started to like maybe just in our attitudes towards

35:11

things not each other but just the world especially when we started to make work

35:15

some of us that kind of started to choreograph what people were interested

35:19

in. I think then you could start to see where people were slightly where people

35:23

were socially. Yeah. And sort of reflecting their own

35:27

experience up until that point. But again equally valid. It's not like

35:30

we kind of looked to each other with any judgment. It was just like, oh, okay,

35:33

we're all starting to shift in different ways now. And that but that also felt

35:36

really exciting and playful. Um, and we dance

35:40

in each other's works and support each other. So,

35:42

you know, that that world became really Yeah, it was very it was a very exciting

35:47

time. Yeah.

35:48

Um, and being around, you know, working-class people and I had the, you

35:52

know, I was lucky enough to work with Naine. She was still in principal then.

35:56

So her values was very much there and she would bring us into the office

35:59

and talk to us and ask how we were doing and if we needed help and I know I had a

36:04

big um problem at the beginning with discipline. You know I really didn't

36:08

understand the discipline of dance. Explain more what do you mean by that?

36:13

Just the rigor of training. So having to be in a dance studio 9 till 5 every day.

36:19

I mean we done some of it at BZA college but you know at Northern's level it was

36:22

a whole other ask. Um and because I think I'd come through quite a creative

36:27

emotional um pathway so far

36:32

then having to train every day in ballet and contemporary technique

36:38

which was heavy training. I had Namron, you know, I had Sharon. I had these

36:42

amazing teachers that were excellent and what wanted to train high quality

36:49

working dancers. That was so new for me. The rigor, the

36:53

hard work, the sweat, the discipline, the day in day out,

36:56

the repetition. Yeah.

36:59

But again, they were so supportive cuz they knew I weren't a bad kid. You know,

37:02

they took me like, "You're training Gary now." I used to walk out halfway through

37:06

a class sometimes cuz I just thought it's too painful.

37:10

But now you know little did I know now that's you don't do that and actually

37:14

there's but it really taught me about about respect and discipline and it

37:19

taught me about hard work and you know it really gave me the foundations in

37:23

which to build a career on and also then to be a good director and a good boss

37:28

and a good teacher like it really helped navigate my way through into all of

37:34

that. So without that training, I just simply wouldn't be working. You know, I

37:37

wouldn't have the the foundations that I've got I've got now.

37:41

You've got now. And I think it's really interesting

37:43

referencing people like Sharon and Namron and Naen and like you say, in

37:47

terms of their experiences into dance and actually how there's a real parallel

37:53

in terms of Yeah. We're all coming from places of difference and a lot of

37:58

struggle in a lot of contexts. Absolutely. like you say that

38:03

time as being really key in relation to people from working class backgrounds

38:08

accessing that kind of education by educators who'd also experience come

38:12

through that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think one thing

38:15

that Northern really taught me um and I remember have doing a a talk for uh

38:21

Northern's uh Blue Plackle and for Naen and I said something like you could they

38:26

say you can always tell a northern dancer or you could back in the day

38:30

because we were quite steely. We were quite confident. We'd come out with this

38:34

kind of strong steely spine. And I think we were taught back then to

38:39

be seen with confidence, to be proud of who you

38:43

were, to stand tall. Um to not shy away from who you are.

38:48

I And you know, that's incredible. That's an incredible tool,

38:53

life tool, I think, for many of us is to how to stand tall and own who you are

38:58

and be proud of where you're from and and offer what you've got to the world.

39:02

Yeah, I do believe that's what sustained me a

39:04

career for 25 years is that sense of quiet confidence and kind of that I've

39:10

got something to offer, not something to prove, something to offer to the world

39:14

that I'm passionate about. And that's all come through that teaching.

39:18

Yeah. And do you think that that sort of bled into also how you might have felt

39:23

more confident about um entering different spaces like more hierarchical

39:29

spaces like going to grand theaters and not feeling like you you weren't allowed

39:35

to be there. Do you know what I mean? So you're so it's sort of bleeding in even

39:40

um beyond the dance studio, but that that that is giving you a

39:45

confidence as someone who clearly um knew they were working class in a in

39:52

a way that perhaps some of us who were working class didn't know we were

39:56

working class, but we knew we were poor. Do you know what I mean? or so you you

40:00

had a very sort of um early learning in political

40:05

understanding because of where you came from.

40:09

Um but that that this bodily confidence is allowing you to

40:15

move out in the world with a a sense of no, I have a right to be here.

40:21

It's my workplace. Yeah.

40:23

Yeah. It's it becomes my place of work. It's

40:25

my office. It's where I go to work. those spaces, you know, like I've never

40:30

felt um that I shouldn't be in those spaces at

40:35

all. Like ne never. Um and also I never went to theater when I was younger. So

40:39

for me, it was a space that I didn't understand

40:43

cuz you talk about hierarchy, right? You're talking about the kind of

40:46

like where you feel comfortable in a sense or have you ever felt

40:50

unsure about being in a space? Yeah. like because of an awareness of

40:54

like a class difference or uh no and I think if I if I have then I

41:00

think unconsciously I've put my stamp on it

41:03

right rather than gone oh I shouldn't be here

41:05

so I think what I um as a dancer actually I have been in situations where

41:10

it's not about being in a theater but I've been in situations where there's

41:13

been a lot of um money and people from a different

41:19

class and I am aware of that but rather than me just shrink into the

41:23

kind of corners I'll just make my working classness even more

41:26

so you almost perform that um yeah I I um not not perform cuz

41:32

that's exhausting but I think but I don't shy away from it and I and I make

41:36

a point of going yeah well I'm from Barnes and I'm from Grimethop and this

41:39

is my story and this is who I am and you know we get on it's fine like I

41:45

don't I don't um class for me is is I don't I'm not

41:50

militant like that you know like I've got people from all sorts of different

41:53

walks of life and I think sometimes it's just about sitting down and learning

41:56

from each other. It's not about Absolutely.

41:59

what's better and what's worse. Um, you know, I always remember we had a

42:03

a show um and we had to go to this house um for some private funders and everyone

42:10

was sat around drinking champagne and we had to perform in the middle of this

42:14

living room for all these people. Wow.

42:16

What company was this? Can I say?

42:20

Oh, it's up to you. to you. Um it was a it was a Saddler Wells

42:25

commission. Um so it was kind of in house with a

42:28

director who'd come from Broadway and Hollywood and was kind of used to this

42:31

kind of um way of networking, let's say, but we

42:37

had to dance for our money like and this wasn't in a rehearsal room.

42:42

Um and I remember feeling quite uncomfortable. A lot of us felt quite

42:45

uncomfortable. Um there wasn't just me there. those

42:48

people who I know you definitely know was in there. Um, and everyone just

42:54

started to really like say this is wrong. Like we're not doing this. Like

42:59

cuz it just it felt really demoralizing actually just kind of with all these

43:03

people, you know, smoking cigars and drinking

43:05

champagne looking at us like with some sort of

43:08

prize. Um, so everyone left, but I thought,

43:12

"Oh, wow. No, I'm gonna stay and I'm just going to

43:14

drink all their champagne." Yes. I love it.

43:18

And I did. And by the end of the night, I was sat on their knees and we were

43:20

chatting about all sorts. And I had a great I had a great night cuz I thought,

43:23

you know, there's some champagne that's around a bottle. I'm not leaving.

43:29

So I stay and it was great. But I kind of I do I use that as example cuz I

43:33

remember it was one moment where I suddenly go, God, there's so many

43:36

different lifesty, you know, from what I'm used to.

43:42

Yeah. And and you can you can either turn your back and walk the other

43:45

direction or you can meet it. and meet it on your own terms as well because

43:50

they they sort of want to meet as well

43:53

or if you if you presume that their act of generosity is to meet you in the

44:00

middle as well then then things can happen

44:03

and I do think there is a danger of poor workingclass people envying and feeling

44:09

jealous of wealth and people that you know might you might feel have more

44:14

but I know where my values And I know where my strengths are. And it's deep

44:18

rooted in humanity and persistence and love,

44:23

you know, and community and togetherness. And that beats that beats

44:27

any kind of figure for me. That that that tops any kind of financial gain.

44:32

Money really doesn't make you happy. Wealth doesn't make you happy.

44:36

Um, so and then infinity pool might look out of

44:39

place in grind form. It also look really nice. So if there

44:43

was any private thunders out there that want me to dance for them,

44:48

get that hot tub in the garden. You'll have a bottle of champagne ready.

44:51

Yeah, for sure. And so Northern School.

44:54

Yeah. So maybe after Northern School, what happened next?

44:57

Yeah. What what happened next? So um whilst I was training at Northern

45:02

I got obsessed with the work of Lee Anderson and the Chumlies.

45:06

Um that's how we met.

45:09

That's how we Yes. I'm coming on to that which was actually not far off. Yeah,

45:12

since then. So, I got obsessed with Lee and the

45:15

Chumlies. Uh, I used to still very good friends with Lee, but you know, was

45:20

really inspired by her kind of punk attitude.

45:23

Love the fact that the Chumlies were all these women with shaved heads and Doc

45:25

Martens. Thought the fan shaws were cool as a great group of guys, you know.

45:30

Um, so I used to study their work. I feel so sad now. But you know on lunch

45:36

hours I used to go down and get the VHS's from Northern because they had uh

45:40

their work their Lee's work that I used to learn all the choreography.

45:43

Was desperate to be a fan show. Desperate to work with Lee. I'd seen

45:47

them live at Banzi College. Yeah.

45:50

The Lost Dancers of Egon Sheila. Thought they were cool. These six guys in

45:53

fluorescent suits, bros and rock music. Just amazing.

45:58

Yeah. Um, so I got obsessed with Lee and then

46:02

I'd made a patch to myself that I was going to work with Lee. If I work if if

46:07

I'd not worked with Lee by the time I was kind of 30, then I'd just change job

46:10

or something. It became my dream job. It was like I want to be a fan show.

46:14

Yeah. Um, and I remember whilst I was

46:17

training, uh, Luca Silverstrini from Protein was doing a workshop at

46:21

Yorkshire Dance. Now, and Luca knows this,

46:24

but I only went to his workshop because I knew he was a fan show.

46:29

So I did the work I did the workshop with protein

46:34

and then afterwards I went are you you're a fan show aren't you? And he was

46:38

like I am yes and I was like would you do me a favor and would you tell

46:41

Leanderson that I really want to work for her.

46:44

Brilliant. There was only about three of us in the

46:46

workshop anyway and he was like yeah okay fine.

46:49

So off goes Luca. Little did I know that he went and told Lee.

46:52

Brilliant. But that's how it's done. That's how it's done.

46:55

Better than a bloody email isn't it? Absolutely.

46:58

Or a like on Insta. A like on Ina. Yeah.

47:01

Week after or around that time we were doing mock auditions and Odette Hughes

47:05

came in from uh Wayne McGregor Random Dance.

47:08

While she was telling us about her career history, she just dropped in that

47:12

she used to dance fully Anderson and the Chumlies.

47:15

Well, of course, I saw another opportunity. So, I went up to her after

47:18

the class and said, "Oh, you said that you were would you mind just going

47:22

telling Lee that this?" She did the same. So suddenly I was kind

47:27

of putting the feelers out with Lee and Lee was being bombarded with

47:29

messages. I mean there's this guy in Leeds that's

47:32

obsessed with you. Um but all I kept getting back as well

47:35

and what I knew that was Lee Anderson didn't ever audition. She always worked

47:39

with the same troop. I mean the Chumies and Fan shows were going from 84.

47:43

47:47

she was still with the same gang. That's what was great about the chums and fans

47:50

that they were they were a tribe a gang. So, I just thought, "Oh god, how am I

47:54

going to how am I going to get to them?" Just as we were about to graduate,

48:00

Northern introduced the new post-graduate apprenticeship scheme.

48:04

Oh, wow. It was a brand new course.

48:08

Yeah. They' never done it before. They didn't

48:10

know how it was going to go and they needed some guinea pigs.

48:14

Enter. Enter stage left.

48:16

Enter stage. Well, no, actually before before the guinea pigs came along, um

48:22

they put a notice up saying these are the six companies that are part of our

48:26

new apprenticeship scheme. And the top of the list was Lee

48:30

Anderson's the ding ding ding ding ding.

48:33

So there was Lee, there was National Dance Company of Wales, there was Ark

48:37

Dance Company, Kim Brston. Wow.

48:40

There was uh where McGregor, there was um God, who else was there? Scottish

48:45

Dance Theater. Great. Yeah.

48:47

Come on, Gary. Oh, god. Was it Phoenix? Maybe.

48:51

Surely it was Phoenix. That would make sense, wouldn't it?

48:54

But these kind of big midscale companies, you know, they think, "Wow,

48:57

you know, as a student, you think that's what you're training towards." And then

49:00

suddenly there was this apprenticeship scheme

49:02

and of course the Chumlies was on the top. So the whole Northern was going

49:05

Gary like the Chumlies are on here. So I thought it's my opportunity. Um, so I

49:10

applied for the apprenticeship scheme. I think there was 12 of us cuz each

49:13

company had two two apprentices. Yeah.

49:17

Um, and so Theresa Barker came up from London from the Chumlies.

49:21

I love Theresa. Yeah.

49:23

And she taught us some choreography that I knew from what I'd studied in the

49:28

library. So straight away instantly. You were just the style.

49:33

Yeah. And I just thought, I've got to get

49:35

this. Surely

49:37

I have to get this. I'm not sure if the teachers did any

49:40

whispering in any ears, but at the end of that audition, I me and Cath Dugen.

49:45

Oh. Oh my god.

49:48

Me and Kath Dugen. So Kath and I have danced two men and a

49:52

Michael for Gary. Okay.

49:54

It's a web. It's a web connection. It is who's now an associate director at Punch

50:00

Drunk, you know, doing great work. Also from working class background

50:03

background. Actually, we should get

50:04

We should get Cath. Cat's very good. She's great. She's got

50:07

some good from Wigan, you know. We need some Lancaster lasses, don't we?

50:12

We absolutely do cuz that's us. Yeah.

50:14

Yeah. She'd be good to talk to very much. So,

50:17

we can peer. Did you ever go there? Oh, yeah. We can peer.

50:20

Northern Soul. Did you do some Northern Soul?

50:22

No, I have I know of it. Of course I do. Cath talks about it dearly. I think

50:25

Cass's um from a line of coal mining as well, so she's got some stories.

50:30

She's got some coal in her veins, but so yeah, Cath Kath auditioned. So,

50:34

and then we literally got got the placement and me and Cath packed our

50:38

bags and literally within a a week of graduating, we were in London.

50:42

Amazing. um working with the Chumies and Fan Shaws as apprentices on their new

50:46

production three and that's where I met Rachel because Rachel came in and taught

50:50

professional class for the company class

50:52

um and we were part of that and also what was amazing was that when we walked

50:56

in the the chumlies were some of the original chumies were still there. So at

51:00

21, we're working with people in their 30s and 40s, you know, people that have

51:05

been around for a long time. And so suddenly that kind of level of um

51:10

quality and experience and having Lee Anderson there, I mean, it was just

51:14

incredible access into then what became an amazing career, you know, like, wow,

51:20

look at this. to be in that room experiencing that

51:24

with Steve Blake and his music and you know we had people who was there at the

51:28

time something like Mary Herbert was there from Ultim in the Michaela Miaza

51:34

um Jay Cloth the performance artist I mean it was

51:37

Terresa was still there I think it was cuz Theresa got me in to teach class cuz

51:42

I danced with Theresa for Matthew Bourne actually

51:46

um that's right

51:47

quite a few Yeah. So that that was the connection there. Yeah.

51:50

And I was doing like I was being a jobbing freelance dancer around London.

51:55

So I as well as performing in other things. I never

51:58

never got invited to work with Lee really.

52:02

But maybe I just didn't say I should have been a bit like

52:07

I said what about really? Absolutely.

52:09

I know. But I think even that rich you know for me like coming out of Northern

52:13

and then you know being in London and then having all these amazing uh

52:17

practitioners like yourself and Ben right came in and

52:21

well I mean a whole range of people that I think we knew about and knew of

52:26

you know cuz you lot around that time were really present in the scene in

52:30

London. It was thriving. Suddenly having class by these people we

52:35

kind of wow you know it was a really it was excellent actually. It was it was

52:40

excellent and it really gave me and Kath a really good benchmark of of the level

52:45

that we wanted to work at and the potential of what was out there

52:48

as well because then you're in a room with people who are dancing for five

52:52

companies, not just one company and then teaching loads of companies and all of

52:57

that. So, you knew there was a community and a scene

53:01

to be a part of. And I also think there's something about, you know, Lee's

53:05

Lee's background in in in choreography and dance. You know, she's come through

53:09

a kind of she used to be a singer in a punk band. She used to sell ice creams

53:13

on the beach. She's come through visual art. She was an art student at St.

53:16

Martin. So, she's had a kind of unconventional route, too.

53:20

So, Lee's kind of creative space is full of that and kind of non-dancers and

53:26

people that have worked in cabaret. So in terms of this idea of being

53:35

very early on I was working with a company that was breaking all of down

53:39

all of those barriers. Yeah.

53:40

Yeah. Um shaking up what performance is what a

53:43

performance space is. You know we were doing saddles wells but then we were

53:47

also doing kind of sweaty cabaret clubs in Bristol with a drunken crowd. And

53:53

that's that's Leanderson all over. She loves all of that. So there was

53:56

something about having, you know, the experience of doing that.

54:01

It really allowed both me and Kath I think to see much broader than just

54:06

theater work or you know it really pushed us to think

54:09

differently about the world, art, creativity, space, class, gender, I mean

54:14

so many things was just there for us

54:18

and that's immediately as we graduated. Okay. Incredible. So what what happened

54:23

after that? give us a little um potted history of your

54:29

Yeah. your bunny hopping across companies. And

54:32

I think well this this story I think is should should be kind of inspiring

54:36

because I want you know having worked with Lee it opened up so many other

54:42

opportunities to meet other people which then got me more work and employment.

54:46

Yeah. So you know whilst I was working with

54:48

Lee uh Matthew Bourne was auditioning for Swan Lake.

54:51

Oh god I forgot you were a Swan. Oh my god.

54:56

55:02

something. But Michaela Miaza who was uh working

55:06

with Matthew at the time was also in the Chumlies. And she said, "Oh, they're

55:09

auditioning. I think you should audition."

55:11

Yeah. Right. I'll talk to Matt

55:13

about you. So sometimes it is about who you know, not what you know.

55:17

Totally about who you know. Um I mean I do hope that I got the job

55:20

through my you know my dancing. Absolutely.

55:23

Absolutely. Of course.

55:25

But just that but I know now you know being now an uh employer and looking for

55:31

dance that recommendations are well you know people do

55:34

recommend a lot in this industry that's how it works if you're looking for

55:37

dancers. Yeah. And it shows how well connected at

55:40

that time like you say everybody was. Yeah. Absolutely.

55:45

So I auditioned and I got the job. So then I went and did a couple of years

55:49

with Matthew Bond doing Swan Lake. Amazing. Forgot all about that.

55:53

And then in your little furry nicker boxers.

55:55

Yeah. Jumping about really hot.

56:00

Were they not really? Oh, it was all really hot. And it was I

56:02

mean I don't I went to see it actually a few years ago and it was incredible. I

56:06

thought how did I do all of that? Yeah.

56:09

You know, amazing.

56:10

Especially when you know we'd have people in our cast from the Royal

56:13

Ballet, you know, and they'd be me stood at the bar with my feet. But

56:17

um with co in your veins as Rachel says.

56:20

Yeah. I think that's what made me a swan, right? Like there's something

56:23

about Matt saw beyond the technique, you know, about my bite and my passion.

56:29

Absolutely. Well, I know it's going to be crass to hear it, but it is sort of

56:34

like the Billy Elliot story, isn't it? Well, it is.

56:37

Cuz also Adam Cooper is in that bloody film at the end in his

56:42

when he jumps on a Do you think that they knew about you

56:47

when they made that film? No. No. No.

56:50

I I do think it is based on someone. I think it's a real story. Oh, really?

56:54

Yeah. I think there's quite a There's a few of us with the same story.

56:57

Um what was interesting is we ended up doing it swan with Adam.

57:00

We went to Japan with Adam Cooper and the cast were in Billy Elliot. So

57:05

when we got there, there were still some of the guys that were in the film. So

57:07

yeah, the Billy Elliot thing, I don't mind it. Like

57:12

Yeah. Yeah. Uh, and when I saw Billy Elliot, oh my gosh, God, it it even now

57:17

if I watch that film, I just, you know, um I get really tearary cuz I think, you

57:22

know, we're kind of we could being quite jovial about this, but you know, the

57:26

pain and the struggle is still heavy on my chest. Like it just takes if I hear a

57:31

brass band. Oh, I' I'd start crying. And I actually

57:36

I' my first piece of solo choreography that I put into resolution

57:40

called Carbon. Oh,

57:43

and uh the first half of it is in silence and the second half of it is a

57:48

brass band playing all things bright and beautiful that I got off the brass off

57:54

soundtrack. Well, Brastoff was filmed in Grime

57:57

and it's the Grime Thor. So, it's like this massive thing.

58:02

Yeah. But there's something about that isn't there about being when you're

58:06

working class like the sound of working class is things like like it does have

58:11

it carries a sound and with that sound

58:15

carries a pride and an identity and a place and a time and a culture and it's

58:20

so evocative totally that I think whether it's unconscious or not we wear

58:24

it as that you know like we carry it. Yeah. I mean also like steel

58:29

bands make me cry instantly because I grew up in a really mixed heritage

58:34

community predominantly um Southeast Asian and West Indian. So

58:41

also I grew up around listening to a lot of steel bands as well as brass bands.

58:45

I love steel band at school. Oh I love I love

58:47

and I still and like that. So I had a teacher who Yeah. who a music teacher

58:52

and I was I was on there was a program called the 815 from Manchester. Do you

58:56

remember that? The 815 from Manchester. And I remember us all being bundled into

59:01

a mini bus with these steel drums. And we played on the telly. God,

59:05

I love it. Oh, wow.

59:06

Yeah. And I I still love it. When I went I went to the Caribbean on dance

59:10

workshops when I was doing my degree. How did you manage that?

59:15

I know. Amazing. And I just remember being suddenly

59:18

surrounded by steel steel and just being like this

59:23

is a this is like NECA. I I wouldn't know how to play it now, but I just I've

59:27

got real viv vivid and visceral memories of that.

59:30

And do you do you feel it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it's a real

59:34

Yeah, I I can't describe it, but it's like a it's just like coming home. I

59:37

mean, it feels like it's like a the sound that feels most um connected to me

59:43

and yeah, it's just a real welcome feeling when I hear a steel band.

59:49

Wow. Really wants to make me move.

59:52

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I start crying. I can't stop it. Like I get a well up

59:58

and it's just like a switch. Yeah, it's incredible.

But I also think that's why I was good at Latin American and ballroom.

Oh yes. Because I'd done steel pan as a as a top

from like age five. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. Music.

You can see how well I can do it. So sorry we

connecting up with you. Where were we up to? But I think this maybe so you were

just talking about that working class like sounds and associations. So

of course working class features in a lot of your work.

Yeah. And do you want to talk to us about

about that? Yeah, I do. Um, so I guess

when one I started watching a lot of work as we do when we're obsessed by

this crazy industry that we're in because it becomes an obsession and a

lifestyle and even on your days off you end up finding yourself at the theater.

Oh yeah. And it's where your community is. You're hanging out with people and

all your friends and that and you go to watch your friends.

I know. I think early on I'd tried to go no that's work and that's life and then

I realized that without that there isn't life so let's just you know give

there's no line between yeah and what's I think what's really amazing

is even on my days off I still work like I try so hard to switch off and I just

can't and I just cuz I love it cuz I absolutely love what I'm doing

it's it's an obsession it's amazing um anyway yeah so I think I was watching

a lot of work but I think what I not seeing out there in dance was

workingass storytelling. Yeah.

And there was something inside of me that wanted to try and communicate that.

And I thought there's a space open and I think I can fill it.

And I was getting older and getting more

politically aware and started to really understand that my work could be a

vehicle for change that it could be a piece of activism that it could stand

tall not just in dance but but in society

out there culturally. Yeah.

Can I do that? So, I set off on a mission to make my first ever

contemporary working-class dance work. Now, I must talk about Annabelle Dumbar

here because she's my producer. Um, from Nottingham, from a Colefield,

is an incredible woman. Um, set up Dance Works UK in Sheffield

in the '9s. Yeah.

Brought people like the fan shaws, Michael Clark to Sheffield Theaters, who

came out to Bza College and did workshop with us. You know, without Annabelle,

again, I wouldn't be sat here. So, Annabelle and Liz Mcpollin at Bowser

College, key women. Yeah.

You know, so the videos that Liz Mcpollen sat me down in front of then

became a reality when she then took me to the theaters to watch Michael Clark,

Netherlands Dance Theater. Yeah.

On stage. Uh, and Annabelle would program that,

which was incredible. Um,

and I'd met Annabel through Dance Works in Sheffield. And she was really excited

about the work I was making. And then when I said I wanted to make a new

midscale dance called Cole about the coal mining industry,

she jumped on it cuz she just thought it was a really exciting project. And

actually I'd started Cole as a real small idea way before that. I just kind

of flirted with this idea of making a coal mining show, but not really.

And you'd already done your show Horsemeat.

Oh yeah, that's right. Yes. So I'd made a solo called Horsemeat. Uh thanks Ra.

That's good. um in 2006 and Horsemeat looked at it was like an

autobiographical journey. Um it was around the time when I kind of

I've been badly hurt through love. I was feeling very self-aware. I needed some

therapy. So I turned to I'll put it on stage kind

well kind of. Little did I know how hard that was going to be.

Um it was an it was an opportunity for me to just look at look at my life and

go what's brought me here and what's shaped me without it feeling too

self-indulgent although it did become that. Um so anyway I created this work

called horsemeat which was a solo work. Um and we looked at all the different

episodes and actually horsemeat was then full of this kind of workingass workass

storytelling. Of course Margaret Thatcher was in

there. I was dancing around in pit boots and jeans. Rage was there. I was using

video footage of the minor strike. I was dancing to to the erasia in gay

bars but hiding my sexuality. So it all started to come through horse

meet this solo and I worked with three incredible

people on that work. It was amazing. So I got Javier de Frutos

in to work with us and uh Nigel Char,

the late Nigel Char which is amazing. Um and they kind

of helped shape um horsemeat and then I worked with a dancer called uh Yanosh

from uh Vincent Dance Theater. Right. Yeah.

Um and Yanosh came in and learned the solo and I could step back from it.

Wow. Um which was incredible.

Gosh. Um so between us we created this Yeah.

this solo horsemate which went on tone. It showed with Two Men and Michael at

one point. Okay.

Um and that kind of led me on. I think that was the kind of starting point of

looking at story and working-class stories and my autobiography and purpose

and was that your start to thinking okay

maybe I'm not going to be a dancer it's choreog oh sorry I'm saying that a bit

rubbishly was that the start of you going okay I

think I'm going to be a choreographer now

I was I think I've been always been a choreographer before I was a dancer I

think dancer came second interesting and so You're just returning

back to that point. Yeah. And I'd never consciously set out

to stop dancing. It was never me going, "Oh, I've always just followed my path

and my heart and my gut. Like, it's just that's what I've done." And so, I never

thought, "Oh, one day I'm just going to stop moving and stop dancing."

Naturally, it just kind of happened. The last show I did was a piece by Jerome

Bell. Um, the show must go on with Kanduko.

And a lot of that work is about just stillness and standing and composition

and space. But I really remember in that moment thinking we were in Paris and

stood on this amazing stage of these thousands of people and I remember in

the performance in the work thinking this will be the last time I'm going to

perform. Go and there was something about the

stillness of it all and the kind of that it's such a beautiful piece of work just

be just thinking that's perfect.

There's such a purity in what I'm doing. I could walk off stage now and not feel

fulfilled and I'd work with some amazing people, amazing choreographers. I'd

worked with the chumlies. I'd been around the world. I've been in

Europe. I've been throwing myself on slate floors and then, you know, dancing

in alleyways and doing brilliant stuff.

So, I felt really and I still feel really fulfilled. I don't feel like

there's a there's a stone that I need to go and turn or a company I want to work

for. I feel really satisfied with what I did as a dancer.

Yeah. Yeah. Um, but then naturally I just started to

move over into choreography and I was getting more work as a choreographer,

more commissions, my thirst grew, but then of course

the work around being a choreographer and a director then just doubles because

of all of the fundraising and the application writing and the planning.

So I didn't have time either to do many dance projects.

So naturally it just felt like I segueed into

into that into that and that's yeah when Cole

happened. Beautiful. Yeah. So back to Cole. tell

us about that. Um, so yeah, there's there's there was a

gap, I think, for working-class storytelling that I wanted to see if I

could occupy. So I set off on a journey to make Cole,

a contemporary dance retelling of the minor strike. And I brought Annabelle

Dumbar on board and together we created this production which looked at the 84

minor strike. It brought together a a a professional cast of dancers

um but also working with local communities and integrating them into

the work. And it was really important that these communities were from

workingclass mining villages and towns. Um so we worked with over 100 women in

this show of ranging from the age of 40 up to 70 I think.

Uh very very different backgrounds from all over the country but had a similar

connection to the industry. Um, and that was incredible. You know, we changed

lives with that with that show. It was it was an amazing experience. And we

also collaborated with brass bands in each area as well to play the score on

stage. So, it was an amazing piece of work, you

know. I can't even believe now that we made it happen. Sometimes I look at it

and think, "Wow, it was it was so ambitious." Yeah,

I I always remember cuz Gary invited me to the preview in Doncaster at cast

and going there with my partner Dewey and

and that you'd bust in a load of miners and I just thought that was so

extraordinary and special and very made me really

tearful watching it as well, but even more tearful in

who you'd invited into the space to watch it. I just thought that

was amazing. That was that was our one of our main

aims was can we can we get coal miners to the theater for one?

Yeah. Can we get them in to see dance for two?

Like is that possible? And you know

and they might like it. And they might like it.

I'm proud to say that they came in their thousands.

Amazing. And they cried. They protested. They

shook my hand. They said thank you. We we worked with the National Union of

Mine Workers that were championing the project saying thanks for keeping the

legacy alive. We had teachers coming that were

striking. We had um there was a whole row of firemen in Birmingham watching

Cole and at the end I said, "What are you in the pusher talk?" They're like,

"Where, you know, we have, you know, the firefighters from wherever." I said,

"What are you doing here?" They said, "We've not come for the show. We've come

for the solidarity." Oh wow. Oh, Gary.

So, it was like Okay. And what about your dad? Well, my dad my

dad's Yeah, he comes and sees I mean, you know, he loves it, you know, his

dance. He loves it. You know, that's another thing as well. We bust the whole

family over and grind thought they always come and see the work. They feel

very emotional by it. They see that it's their work. You know, it's my family's

work. So, gr not just my dad, but my family, my extended family and the

village are very much a part of that journey. And I wanted to make work for

them, you know, and also to try and break down this stigma and this this um

notion that theaters are not for people. They are public spaces. They are

publicly funded and not many people know they're there.

And there was a point where people were saying, oh, you know, take coal out into

these coal mining communities. And it's like, no, we're going to get the people

out of the coal mining communities into a theater to go, look,

this is for you. This is for you. Just because you're

from a working class background, it doesn't mean you can't see workingass

theater in a theater. In a working class town, like

where people might also go and watch the ballet.

Exactly. Yeah.

And so many people that we've brought in go, "Oh, I didn't know. Oh, I walk past

here every day and I didn't even know it existed."

And then through our audience development, what we've been able to do

is then build a more sustained audiences for that theater

cuz people know it's there now. So they go, "Oh, actually it's not so bad after

all." Yeah. Oh, they go for a cup of tea in a cafe. Fantastic.

It's a public space. So, actually, that's something that Annabelle's really

keen on is how can we bring people from the region into regional theaters to

say, "This is yours. Have access to it. Come and see more work."

And I think by the very nature of the work we create, it it bridges that gap

because they're going, "Well, I'm in the theater one." Yes. But what I'm

connecting with is about me.

Is about me. M so already it's job done in a way cuz

you think you know you think well that's that's great you know that's amazing.

So in a way it's trying to get rid of what we were talking about earlier which

is do you feel uncomfortable in them spaces?

Yeah. Yeah. So we try and break down that barrier

and and provide opportunities for people to access theater.

Um so that was Cole and it it did very well. It won loads of awards. It did it

went to Germany. It was Yeah. And I'm so proud of it. And I am not the

international audiences like they loved it.

Well, we went to Reclan Housen, which is a mining town. And around that time,

there were uh the mining industry was closing, but unlike the UK, they were

celebrated and there was a lot of money and resources put into like prog career

progress. Yeah. And all of the shops and businesses had

loads of like um miners banners up and flags and images and photographs. And it

was honestly it was so beautiful the way

that they respected the coal miners. And so when we brought Cole, it tells a

story of Thatcher's government and the minor strike and the struggles and what

happened and the downfall and the devastation. And the German audiences

were so apologetic to us, you know, they just said, "I'm so sorry. It could be so

different and this is not our experience, but we we're

together with you." Um, in real solidarity.

Yeah. But they loved the show. They loved the show. It was It was

incredible. It was really quite something. And we took all of our

community women from Doncaster over there. Some of them had never been on a

place. So we had dogcaster women in in um

international touring in Germany along with cart manure band

who are from a little mining town next to grime. So suddenly we're all there in

Germany flying the flag for you know workingass artists.

Yeah sure and that felt really exciting. It felt

great. Um and that was and then Wasteland

happened. Yeah. So tell us about Wasteland the

next project. Um, so my brother who was seven years my senior, um, he'll not

mind me saying this, but he's he was part of a generation that got left

behind after the minor strike and drugs took hold.

Mhm. So did crime.

Um, so he's not had the easiest life. Um,

and he came to see Cole. He came to see my show. I'm proud to say he's clean

now. He's got a job. He's a He's a survivor.

Yeah. Um, and there is an article in the

Guardian um, from Lindsay Winship when we did Wasteland. She interviewed me and

my brother David. Oh gosh. Wow.

Wow. Great. But we'll have to put a link to it. Gary

interview. She found out that I'd made Wasteland as a for my brother and she

said, "Well, can I speak to him?" She was more interested in speaking to him

than you know. But what this this article is brilliant because what it

does is it shows you how industrial decline impacted all these young kids in

these working-class environments and what they did to survive. It's a really

beautiful read. Um so yeah, I'll send you the link.

Lovely. But during Cole Q&A, which my brother

came to, he put his hand up um and the woman who was chairing it uh

didn't know it was my brother. He said the gentleman at the back and he went,

"Gary, the story's not over." He said, "Call's not over. What about

us?" Right?

What about my our generation? What happened next?

What's next? And I thought,

I got to make another show. Yeah.

So, I made a show called Wasteland, which looked at the death of industrial

Britain and then the rise of the rave culture. So, I kind of followed my

brother's journey, but also looking at how two different generations coped in a

in a turbulent era of upheaval, like how one generation became still and

static and ground to a halt and yet the next was trying to create this this

movement, this need to build Yeah.

communities which often came through artistic

practice. Absolutely. But then also looking at you

know the the government's crackdown on the rave culture and then seeing the

parallels between the the mining community and the rave community. So

it's just full circle. Yeah. And wastand like co we brought in working-class

women uh men from uh workingclass uh towns and villages who played the role

of coal miners and they sung miners classics. So again another beautiful

strand of strand of the work you know again

ranging from the age of 40 up to 60 70 year old. We had steel workers on stage,

coal miners and it was incredible. Incredible.

Um, and then I'm about to make a a third and final part of what I'm calling the

Thatcher trilogy called Detention, which looks at section 28.

So, yeah, Margaret Thatcher has played a big

part in my career. So, I've got a lot to thank for.

Absolutely. Hello.

And do you think so do you think would you say you're still workingass, Gary?

Wow. This is interesting. Yes. Because I think on paper I

if you didn't know who I was, I think on paper I would be classed as middle class

because of my education, my job title, my job role, my income.

Yeah. Um, but my values are workingass. So I

think I'm grounded and I'm rooted in workingclass values.

You still live in and I still live in Grimethor. I still

live I'm the only one in my family to ever go to university still. Yeah. Mhm.

Um, so there's Yeah. So there I toy with

this quite a lot because some of some of my friends say to me, "You're working

you're middle class. You're middle class now, darling." And

I'm like, "Yeah, but maybe I am." It depends. What? How do we define class?

Absolutely. That is the question, right? How do we define class? I mean, the idea

of working class, you know, back in the day was for working people, you know,

we're talking about people on the ground in industry really, people that right

there who Yeah. worked. Yeah.

Um, and they weren't sort of I don't know. I

think one way of putting it is it they were doing the work, not telling people

to do the work with with low pay.

Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Generally, I think that's what it was.

It was it was it was hard work and low pay.

Yeah. which I think when you look at the public sector now, you know, you can

still see that people are working hard with low pay, people that saving lives

and, you know, putting out fires and keeping crime off the streets, you know,

it's like these are not these are not big wage packets.

Um, so I think the word working class now because of how far we've moved away

from industry and labor and what all that meant,

I think it means I think it means different things to different people.

Yeah, for sure. And I think it can be quite a divisive

tool that people use and it can be thrown around quite

flippantly, I think. Um,

do you think, sorry to interrupt, do you think you've ever experienced that sort

of divisiveness in a negative way

within within the working class? Well, yeah. No, just

in in your life in your life or and your work, have you

ever ex felt like you've encountered that sort of divisiveness in relation to

class experience and difference in class?

Um, not explicitly. No. And I think I'm so because of my upbringing

and my parents and my family, they're so steely like I think I've just taught to

just like take charge of my environments and just

assert myself in ways and I think it's unconscious.

So I can't say that I've ever felt a victim

because of my class or felt injust because of my class because

you know if I want something I'll try damn hard to get it and I'll make it

happen one way or another. Like I'm I'm resilient like that. Like all my

family, you know, like my I've got such a huge family and we've got a resilience

that's that's generations old. It's not just my

generation. it goes way back and that's because of the hard work and

the grit and you stand up and you carry on and you fight for what you believe in

and you you go forward and you um so I think I've always kind of had

that attitude in a way where I kind of try and create that space and and and

own what I what I feel I'm owed or what what the world is owed or

you know or I'll call out injustice you know.

Do you think your dance training has got anything to do with that as well Gary?

I do absolutely. Yeah. Again, I think going back to like Northern and Lisp at

Banzi College, the time of the '9s where we were

politically and socially, I think impacted massively.

I think being in Chapel Town in Leeds, you know, this amazing space, this

community that we weren't in, you know, a metropolitan city, like I think being

being surrounded by all of that, I think was was integral.

again having Naen and the the great teachers there I think all of that um

definitely impacted and I think there was something about training at Northern

and at Banza College which always encouraged us to be who we were like

don't change celebrate who you are you know we were never told not to be or you

cannot and shad not and will not it was always you can you will and try and

yeah don't hide yeah and and use use what you've got as

your power um And I think that's incredible. I

mean, people like Sharon, you know, was a huge inspiration for me.

Um, and Naen and the whole Phoenix lot, you know,

you know, and the way they talk about, you know, color and class and

them carving a way through that in the in the in the early 80s, which again was

so new. And they talk about spirit a lot

and spirit and community, of course. I think all of that has absolutely just

kind of seeped into my bones. Yeah. Um

do you think what now because you you talk a lot about people these figures

throughout your journey and almost like mentors or

you know supporters. Do you find yourself sort of unconsciously now being

a mentor for others or for perhaps workingass dancers

who are coming through or are you aware of that like

Yeah. Like the dancers in your work for instance?

Yeah, I mean I do a lot of mentoring now, but it's not just with

working-class artists. I just do a a mentor a lot. Um, but a lot of my

mentoring is is about resilience. Have I, you know, be strong in your f, you

know, it's all about it's about spirit is about that rather than rather than

class. Yeah.

Um, but I also talk a lot about having a message, knowing what you want to say to

the world, how you want to communicate it. When I work with students, you know,

I always say to them, what do you want to say? How do you want to say it? What

space do you want to occupy? Um, use your art as a vehicle for change,

you know? Um, don't just see your art as

decorative. See it as as as a piece of activism, regardless of what that is. It

doesn't even have to be overtly political. What space do you want to

occupy? So that's the kind of stuff I talk about a lot with people I mentor

is it's about occupying space and being being really switched on to to what your

work can do and the impact it can have on the wider

scope of people the the more global society.

Um and I'm not saying we're going to change the world in what we do but if we

think like that then I think we can create small ripples that might then go

on to create huge ripples and then um you just don't know where it's going

to lead to. And I think that's the beauty and the power of art.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

I think I know what the answer is going to be cuz it sounds like we've sort of

talked about that as well. Yeah, cuz it I don't think you've ever

been wobbled by your class background. Have you

like No.

No. Have you ever hesitated?

Yeah. No bit. No,

no, but I haven't because I'm proud of it

and it's made me it's there's so many values to it that it's all positive

that I see the strength in it. So, no, I don't ever wobble with it. In fact, it's

the one thing that makes me not wobble is that um I think where the wobble

sometimes comes is just insecurity about creating and whether what I'm doing is

is right. But that I think that's not that

that's something else. They are they are wobbles. But in terms

of class wobbles. Uh no not at all. I mean I've you know

butve we've come through I've come through struggles. I've come through

hardship. I've had no money. I've grown up with no money.

But but through that we've learned how to deal with that. So

anything extra for me is a bonus. like life's great because

when you've kind of had nothing and you've had to fight for stuff then now

you know I've got this amazing job and I'm earning a living and I'm doing what

I love and I'm changing lives and I've got audiences and work and prospect and

employment opportunities that's fantastic for me

so everything for me is a bonus nothing's ever a negative even when we

don't get funding or we lose an opportunity we just go okay

okay we just move Yeah. You know, and it's

that resilience like you say from 1984. That's kind of where it comes

from is that working-class resilience of,

you know, Yeah.

And I think I'm a lot tougher than I know. Actually, I do. For sure.

I think I'm, you know, cuz I am sensitive too, you know.

Yeah. I mean, it's so it's such a dichotomy actually. Like it's really

interesting that notion that you have been super tough in your journey and I'm

just sort of circling back perhaps to your dad getting worried

with you with a baton in your hand going that's not tough

but actually the journey is like of a dancer and an artist is like super

duper tough and and and tough in different ways. going down a mine and

sticking dynamite in a wall of coal. Yeah.

Yeah. But it tough nonetheless. And so it's

really interesting um how that that has changed maybe also

your your parents and your family's understanding about what grit is and

what toughness is. Yeah.

In in terms of what you're doing and how you've built a life for yourself.

Well, also they still, you know, they can't believe that I'm still working in

dance and I've been doing it for 25 years. They're incredibly proud, you

know. They're incredibly proud of what I've done. And and that and what was

great was then sitting them down in front of Cole and going,

"Now you can see what I do through your lens." So they can see how dance can

be about them. And and they go, "Oh my god, wow, it was brilliant." So they

start to see dance through a different lens or appreciate it as a different art

form which I think is again that's the power of I think um the

work that we do as a company is to try and do that. You're almost winning

people over something that they probably could never

have imagined. Exactly. And that feels really

empowering I think to do um and all them lessons that I learned

when I when I was younger their life you know it builds character and it builds

it's built me as a person not as an artist not just an artist as a person.

And I think in this industry you it's tough.

This industry is tough. It's wonderful but it's tough. The rejection, the

competitiveness, the rigor, all of it. It you know you got to

you got to work hard. The low pay, the overworked, the

overstretched. It's like it's exhausting.

Yeah. They're working for free. They're working for free. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Walking through injury, all of that.

Absolutely. Keep it going. Keep going. Keep it going. uh the knockbacks, the

rejections, the the days where you're not working and you think you've lost it

all, you know, all of that. It's, you know, I know a lot of people

that have left the industry because of those situations.

Um but there's something about keeping going that I think it's really

Yeah. Well, I know what we haven't talked about or questioned you about is

this notion about um because I think we've got time to stick

this in. this notion about um the sensation of precarity

that a lot of you know we've chatted to some of our guests already about this

and it's certainly there for for Laura and myself this notion that

dance is a precarious career in and of itself and then maybe

there's this another layer of precarity because we know that we don't have a

financial safety net underneath us totally

if no work.

Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't appear.

And so do you does is that also something that you are still dealing

with or have dealt with in the past?

I still deal with it. And this does come back to class.

Yes. Because

I value money. We have to talk about finance.

We have to um

so I still even though now Gary Clark Company is an NPO and we've got funding.

I I I am still aware that that funding can end and that I need to save my

money. Mh.

Like I am not frivolous with money at all. Like you know I don't hold it close

but you know I I I I've leared to to think about the future

and to save and to think that it all could be taken away

and that I'm not from privilege. So I've got nothing to fall back on. So the only

means of income and support, financial support, has got to be through my back

pocket. It's got to be through the money that I earn.

So I'm constantly living in a state of of anxiousness thinking it's all going

to end. Especially when you hear about the funding systems.

Yeah. You know, absolutely. the percentage of funding that have been

successful, what the criteria is, you know, the scare mongering that's

happening amongst, you know, the government that arts are being cut,

dance courses are closing, there's no provision, there's no dancing school.

It's like suddenly you go, "Oh, okay. We really are at the bottom of the pile

sometimes." Yeah.

So that's always there that I never feel confident in the in the industry.

Yeah. You never can presume that you can make a living.

Absolutely. So, I've leared to squirrel away money.

Um, and it's not a lot, but you know, at least I can go, okay, you know, it's

like a security keep me going for a week or two, but you know, we're not we're

not talking a lot of money. And that's and that's kind of

and the fact that that feels just even having a little bit of something, you

know, is eye opening to me because I think we

live, you know, we're not rich. Dancers are just not. And I think and we don't

we don't when you're from a background which

which is not from financial privilege you can't fall back on that

and so there is I I do worry about it even and I'm now in the most secure

position as in terms of our funding but I I don't

ever take that lightly. I was having a conversation yesterday with another

choreographer and they just didn't have any worry and I was going but you know

the next MP round's coming and they were like yeah it's fine like why

I think it's interesting when you say that that like this could all end so

that feeling of like someone could just pull the rug

and I wonder how much of that is actually to do with being in the dance

sector versus being from a working-class background. Do do you see what I mean? I

think because I think for me there's something about that being that feeling

often being tied to how did I get here

and a little bit like some I'm going to wake up and someone's go you this is

absolutely ridiculous. You're not a doctor. Do you know like I think there's

sometimes a bit of that versus the act but actually

we are in a a time where procarity for the art form is probably its highest

since you know um those pre-1980s days.

Yeah. Um and yeah I think it's an interesting

thing for me about what is that about? Is it about who you are as a person

who's grown up in a working-class environment versus who you are working

in in dance that is so drastically poorly funded?

Yeah. In this time.

Yeah. Yeah. And and in a way you grew up as a 5-year-old in an ind you know it

got taken away this industry where people were you know

relying on food donations a year in to the strike. Oh yeah you know and that's

very real for you and absolutely left for nothing. And then if you're coming

from a working class background now, you you haven't got that financial safety

net and nor have you got an financial inheritance because maybe your parents

are in a council house or whatever. So there's nothing there underpinning it at

all. And so that that sensation of procarity I think is

very you know tiring and stressful in and of itself. Yeah. That that young

people are carrying now. young artists are carrying or young artists are going

to workingass artists anymore. Soon it'll

only be for people who can afford it and who have got a safety net

through their families. And I'm not demonizing those guys at all,

but I think we need to uh wake up to the fact that it's

almost like some social conditioning going on. And the danger for me in that

is that if that does happen, then then the world will become onedimensional.

Yeah, for sure. And and there's not enough there's not

enough balance there at all. So, I think we've got to fight really hard to ensure

that working-class voices are heard. But again, for me, it's all about stepping

out of the arts and going what the arts can do bigger.

Yeah. you know what what our purpose is in a global sense to fight for that

you know that purpose and the and the the the benefits it brings to so many

people like that's that's incredible because I think when we talk about

things being you know um where the anxiety is one I think for me it's

twofold one is financial the other is opportunity like suddenly if that

opportunity is not there for me to quit what else am I going to do it it starts

to make you go look at your skill base and and you suddenly go,

"Yeah, there's a lot of transferable skills. We all know that in what we do."

But in the immediate, you suddenly go, "Oh,

you know, I've been doing this for so long." And yet, if that was taken away

as a 45year-old, I don't know where I would turn now. I don't know what what

what area I would go into, especially now if dance is going from

all curriculums and courses. So, that goes then the employment goes and the

funding goes. where we all found upon

why we're all here and so yeah it's scary but um I do have hope

and I think yeah we've just got to keep going

yeah I mean if anything dancers dancers have got stamina

yes yeah and somehow do we need another

movement you know when you look at the land political and social landscape

we've not had a big shakeup for a long time you My mom keeps saying we need to

take to the streets. Sounds like that's what needs to happen.

Gary Gary's leading the revolution brass band with a megaphone at the

baton. Gosh.

Can we see it? Um Sarah.

Oh, so I nearly brought it up earlier because when you when you were talking

about um dancing for the people with the

champagne. Yeah.

Oh yeah. Um, and I can't remember how, but I was going to Oh, no. And it was

when you were saying before that as a precursor to that that you'd been in

rooms with people a very different class and I wanted to

say it was one of those times in Paris. In Paris?

Oh, yeah. On your day off, Gary.

Yes. Oh, this is the connection.

Yes. So, well, I was in Paris with Jean Bell and Sarah Blanc. Yes.

Um, are you talking about Disneyland? Yeah.

Oh god, me and Sarah, it was so funny. There was about 30 of us on tour and we

she put in this group chat like, "Anyone for Disneyland tomorrow?" It was only a

day off. Silence. Like literally silence. And I

was like, "Yeah, [ __ ] that. I'm not going to know galleries. I'm off to

Disneyland." So me, Sarah, and this other chap got on a train and we went to

Disneyland for the whole day. And it was just and we were like, "Can we just get

running on Space Mountain?" And it was so yeah, me and Sarah's been to

Disneyland which is that was Yeah, that was the connection.

Yeah. Um and we keep WhatsAppapping each other

with with Yeah. Sarah's brilliant. So yes, Disneyland. Two grown adults

running on Dumbo. Yeah. Excellent.

So bad, isn't it? It is great. I love it though. It's a great story.

Yeah. We were just discussing cultural hierarchies and smashing them.

Yeah. Yeah.

Um, and I think just to like the last thing we really want to ask is

Yeah. So, we've been asking everybody because

part of the impetus for this podcast is about this notion of leveling up,

leveling up Britain that's come through the conservative government and the sort

of legacy of that. Um, and thinking about certainly what we were just

talking about in relation to arts and this needed of a re revolution, but

thinking about what your thoughts might be in relation to

even that as a term that as a term, but also what that might

mean in relation to how you might position yourself in relation to the

work you do, where you've come from. This kind of sense of north versus south

that's kind of all implicit in that. Um,

have you leveled up? Have you leveled up? Yeah.

On the dance train. See, I've got another hour to get this question.

We should have asked this first. Yeah,

I So leveling up, it's all a bit unless you know about it, it's all a bit

confusing, isn't it? But I think and can be misunderstood.

Yeah, I think on the notion so you know I I like it because I think for far too

long there has been very there's just been a few hot spots for arts and

culture in in our country. And I think, you know, places like Barnium, where I'm

from, has just been creatively forgotten about. So, I like the idea that um

unseen places that might not have arts and culture at its heart are getting uh

funding and money and opportunities to thrive in those areas to create a be

better life for those local people. Yeah.

Um, so I think it's a good thing and I think when we talk and I like and it's

it seems fair if fair is the right word and you talk you asked about what do I

think about the terminology leveling up. Let's level up. It feels like it's

trying to create whether it's doing its job or not an equal balance.

Yeah. Um in society both in terms of finance

and opportunity. Yeah.

Now Barnsley has seen a huge shift. There's been a massive change in that

town center. Really? Did it have was it a recipient

of leveling up funding? Well, there was there was leveling up

and then there was um there was about two or three different strands that all

kind of over overlapped at the time. So, I'm not sure,

you know, don't quote me on this, but I know it got some money to help

to help bolster boost. Yeah, they did get some leveling up

money. I think we can check. Thank god.

Check. Yeah. Um and what Barsy have done is they've

they've put it into the town center. It's all been um regenerated. They have

like an arts festival now. They have dance companies in the local square.

Motion House was there last year. Motion House in

Barnsley. Amazing. Gosh. You know, um uh there's there's music

for kids. We've got a brand new library now. It's fantastic.

Is it working? Oh, it's amazing.

Oh, brilliant. And I took my dancers last summer. The

dancers came and they went, "Oh my god." Like it's we've got cafes on the street

now. It's like it's incredible. The dancers

absolutely loved it. Um so you can see the change and if I showed you

photographs of it that now and then you wouldn't believe it was the same town

and the town are really taking advantage of it. Good.

People come out of the house now. they go and sit out on the lawn and and I

think you can see that firsthand how, you know, by pumping money, strategic

money into a strategic cultural aim can work and does work

because I think people do want to access that stuff.

They've just got to have access to it. Yeah.

Um and gosh, if that had happened in 1985,

God, exactly. Yeah. The problems are though

is when you start moving out of the town center and you start going into the the

local communities like Grimeth then we're struggling but the council are

building up a new uh cultural strategy and we're part of that to go how can we

get arts and culture out into these places of deprivation.

So it's slow but at least the conversations are happening. I'm really

I'm so proud of Barnsley and already we're changing the narrative of Barnsley

because it's known as this workingass um kind of mining town with very little

opportunity and actually we're seeing we're seeing

things shift and change. Um the arts council are really keen that

people from Barnes they apply for money. There's some there's money there for

people for projects. It's just there's very few artists there because everyone

moves away because historically it's not been a place to thrive culturally but

now it is. So I want to try and make a commitment to Barnes in the next 5 years

where Gary Clark Company will have a a base there.

Yeah. And just more visibility to try and provide more whether that's through

performance workshops, classes, whatever it is, but just so we can allow the town

to thrive. Um so yes, I do like it. I know it's

controversial the leveling up and it and it caused a lot of controversy

um especially when people were being asked to move and relocate and things

like that. Um and also where where the money then

got positioned. Yeah.

And how it got distributed. I think depending on where you were, I think

each council and place had its own agenda and where things should go. Um, I

know some towns just pumped it all into art centers that already existed, so

nothing really changed. Um,

so yeah, I mean I'm hopeful, you know, and I but it's only because I've seen

Barnsley thrive that I use as an example. I'm not sure about other towns

and cities around the country and and how that's

worked out leveled up. But in your experience, this has been a

positive. Yeah, I think so. But again, I don't

know how much of that. It's all a bit, you know, you're never quite sure

what pot goes where and how it's all being used.

What about you? What do you know about leveling up? Like what's your opinion of

it? It it's mixed and we ask all our guests

this question and some people have really different um

feelings about it actually. Yeah. Some people really reject

outwardly reject the notion of it. Yeah. in terms of for them they think

it's setting a precedence for um this notion that

the leveling up means that there's a hierarchy and there's those at the

bottom and that they're worthless unless

they're here. So it's problematic in in the narrative that people who are at the

bottom that that they're not culturally or so uh or socially sophisticated.

So it's paint. So it's it's kind of denigrating workingclassness.

But I think there's truth in that. Yeah.

I think there's absolute truth in that. And the reason why they're not

artistically intelligent is because they don't have access to it.

Yeah. or opportunity or finance or money. So we can only progress that

forward that can only change if they have those opportunities. And I think

it's also about it's because for us we talked about this in relation to that

social mobility that it feels very clear to us that that learning to dance and

studying dance has actually become a pathway to actually find yourself

and I'm not saying that one is better than I'm not being hierarchal about but

actually it's opened opportunities that suddenly you find yourself like you know

I you know my family are still where I

grew up but I live a very different life to them

because of the job that I do and you know, the education that I've had

that sets us apart a little bit, but like you, I still feel like there's

those values and that connection, but actually

um I'm really glad that I like feel the absolute privilege to work

in an area that I really deeply care about and I've seen my parents just work

very very hard, long hours and actually coming through dance has

enabled me to feel comfortable to be in spaces like this. Do you see what I

mean? That um

so I think there's something about the social mobility in terms of like

actually that has leveled me up but but I I feel like I want it to be

really clear that that is because of dance.

Yeah, of course. Yeah. I wonder if there's this thing where cuz

when we talk about class the word up so this hierarchy. So if they said leveling

out levelage the language

up means higher up and down. Yeah, absolutely.

Contradiction with leveling, isn't it? Like you set like this sort of

I've never thought of that. I've never thought of it like that. So that feels

really nice to get that perception on it.

But that maybe we need to level out like the whole of society to make it more

equal so there's less of a gap between the very rich and the very poor.

And that that and so that's why some people

level out. Yeah. they and and they feel perhaps

uncomfortable with that term because it's just saying like no, we just need

to make everyone go in that direction, but actually it's not quite as simple as

that. And of course, there's all of like you

Yeah, I get that. Like you mentioned there, Rachel, about

that sort of sense of sophistication, you know, like when I was growing up,

like I was really aware that financially we weren't comfortable.

Yeah. But actually my parents um were you know my dad was was an intelligent

man and he read the Telegraph on a Sunday and he introduced me to like he

knew that I was interested in dance and art and so he would show me paintings

and show me the art extracts of the the paper and you know we'd go on holiday

and we'd visit art galleries and so culturally I had a really rich

um kind of introduction to culture and but actually that was kind of paralleled

with his job. He was a milkman. Um

Yeah. And it's this real tens

and and and opening up the discussion that actually being working class there

often it's very narrow the the focus of what people think workingass is like. So

it's portrayed in like on their telly as like you live in that type of house.

It's usually a counselor, a state, you're you're feckless,

you're poor, you're a drug dealer, it's crime, it's this, but actually there are

multiple experiences of workingclassness in in terms of the the environment

you've grown up in and what you've been exposed to, whether there was a like a

library at the end of the street or not or or whatever. And so we want to try

and also bust this myth that workingclass people are are

unsophisticated culturally or artistically or socially. Actually,

there are plenty of sophisticated workingclass people.

Um and and so that's something about this conversation that we're interested

in having. You know, I my I grew up in my mom's work room. She was a

seamstress. The front room was her workshop. I was in there from the age of

two with a needle and thread in one hand and flipping through Vogue in the other

because she used to have that there to make to copy the the the design. She was

a seamstress. So I knew from a very early age I I was exposed to

extraordinary photography in exotic locations,

looking at art and design and light and color and I knew there was a world

beyond the the pretty poor mean streets of

where I grew up in the stereotype. That's the thing that comes in. Yeah. So

it's kind of interesting. Um yeah, we sort of want to sort of like

break open that notion that being workingass is just this thing. You look

like this, you live here and this is what you think and this is what you know

and it's not much. That's bollocks. Yeah.

So for some people they have had they have grown in up in

those things as well and have had sophisticated thinking and move beyond

that without forgetting their roots. I think what we're talking about is

opportunity. It's just opportunities. It's like people just need opportunities

to read a book, to access art, to and then they'll make their own

decision, you know, but without it. The lack of it, it's the lack of it that's

the problem. That's it. The knowledge that it exists

to be there. It Yeah, it does. It absolutely does.

And I But that's what I've that's what I'm hopeful for that, you know, and also

for everybody. This is not just about artists. For everybody. Yeah,

absolutely. You know, everybody's mental wellbeing

and health and way of thinking, you know, and

imagination and all of it. Yeah. And physic that ability to just be

in their bodies. Yeah. It's it's big.

Let's lead the Gary Clark revolution. Yeah.

Thanks for listening to this episode of the Dancing Class podcast. We hope that

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