Robb Munger shares his journey from real estate development to running a homeless shelter and the importance of relationships in helping the homeless. He emphasizes the need to see each person as an individual and to ask the right questions to understand their unique circumstances. Robb also discusses the misconceptions about homelessness and the importance of compassion and understanding. He believes that focusing on relationships and acknowledging the humanity of others is the key to solving the homelessness problem. Robb's legacy is to help people become better and make a positive influence on others' lives.

Well, it's so good to have Rob on How You Do It Day, Rob.

Oh, fantastic.

Good to have you on. Looking forward to this interview and the topic we're gonna cover because I think it's an important topic in our culture. So I'm looking forward to seeing what insights you have for me and my audience.

Well, great.

I love to ask my guests this question, what's the best piece of advice you've ever received?

Oh boy.

There's so many good pieces of advice I've received.

Right now I've been praying and meditating on, you have to walk your own walk. You have to be your authentic self. And right now I believe you have to have focus on compassion and understanding. So that's been my walk lately. So I think that's probably the best piece of advice I've had is just you gotta walk your own walk.

Mmm.

I love that. Who shared that with you? Remember where it came from?

I don't. There's been so many great people in my life that have influenced me. You know, it's fine when you look at success and people say, oh, you're self-made or something. And it's like, no, I've been molded by a lot of good people.

That's good. Speaking of that, you kind of segue nice to the next question. Who are some role models in your life or mentors along your journey that stand out about how they impacted you and maybe just kind of share what about them stood out to you?

Well, right now, first person that comes to mind is Pastor Ray Townsend. He works at Exodus. He came to Exodus, he was a retired Methodist pastor. I segue from finance and real estate development and business into...

nonprofit world and Pastor Ray was a nuclear engineer and so he went to living out of his mind, you know brain all the time to then having to be living out of his heart and then he saw me and so he's helped mentor me. So that's been a blessing. My father Abraham Lincoln, I was born on February 12th so

I've always been passionate about equal rights, you know, or, you know, freedom of rights to people and compassion there. And so that, you know, Abraham Lincoln.

freedom of rights, and so that, Abraham Lincoln, and then just my father. So I guess I have quite a few. That's why. That's great, I love that. So tell us your journey of how you got from where you are, where you started and where you are right now and what you're doing right now.

and then just, you know, my father and so I guess I have quite a few more than just one.

Well, yeah, my journey's kind of unique. Everybody has a unique story though, I think.

You know, I ended up going to school in a small Michigan town. We were just talking about earlier, Charlotte, or Char-la in Michigan, it was Charlotte, North Carolina. And then I moved, my parents moved and ended up in even a smaller town called Springport. And I graduated with a

I think 46 kids in my class. And so I had a small town mentality and then wanted to get out of there. So ended up going into the army military college and became an officer in the army. And then met my bride in college. And then we ended up moving to Grand Rapids, Michigan which was considerably larger. And I ended up, my passion.

Wow.

had always been really real estate and finance. So I ended up growing a real estate brokerage firm and then ultimately ended up starting to develop land and building houses. I was flipping houses before it was on TV. I tease people and I say, in fact, I was driving a Ford Bronco, the full size ones.

I was flipping houses before I was on TV. These people, I can't say they got infected.

before it was popular to drive four-wheel drive trucks too. So I'm kind of a country guy put into a big city. So my mentality and personality was more, you know, small town and developed my company and developed a finance company to a pretty good size nationally and developed a couple thousand lots and commercial buildings and everything.

And I developed my company and developed a finance company to do it for a good size nationally. And it built a couple thousand lots and commercial buildings and everything. But my real turn was when I stopped in 2007 to help Tim McCann. He was a homeless guy that was holding a sign up saying, I'll work for Booth. And it was a Saturday morning.

But my real turn was when I stopped in 2007 to help Tim McCann. He was a homeless guy that was holding a sign up saying I'll work for food. And it was a Saturday morning. I was out getting some parts for ATVs and stuff before the kids and wife were up. And it was one of these Michigan, we have these gray days. I don't know if you have them in Iowa, but I mean, you can't really tell the difference from.

I'll get some parts for the ATVs and stuff for the kids and flight for us. And it's one of those... Michigan, we have these great days. I don't know if you have them in Iowa, but... You can't really tell the difference from a cloud, you know? I mean, this is... it's just red. Right.

cloud and you know I mean there's just it's just gray and raining and this poor guy was out there and so I pulled over started talking to him he said you work for food and he says oh yeah I said tell you what if you're here on Monday I'll put you I'll pick you up after my business meeting and then I will put you to work and I'll I got some housing so I'll put you in a studio apartment and

I swear to God, I went to church the next day and prayed to God he wasn't going to be there. So I was like, what did I just commit to? At that time, I had several real estate projects going and then my finance business and then I have four kids and all the personal stuff.

He's standing on the corner with his backpack and his duffel bag. So I picked him up and, you know, I thought I was going to be the white night where I was helping him. You know, I was feeling pretty good because, you know, financially things were going well and family wise things went well. And so I thought, boy, oh boy, I'm going to, you know, I'll lift him up. Well, after about 10 days and hearing his story.

up and I thought I was going to be the wifey knife where I was helping him. Right. You know, pretty good. You know, financially things were going well.

I realized God put him in my life, I didn't get put in his life, I mean, God put him in my life to lift me up. So he worked for me about six, eight weeks, then he started drinking, and at that point I said, hey Tim, I'm not set up to, you know.

to handle that. At most I'd have five employees in my company. We had a lot of subcontractors and vendors into the hundreds, but our overall operation wasn't big enough where I'd have an HR department that I could work with him. So I got him into a rescue mission, and then he called me two days later and he says, hey Rob, they said I need a mentor. And I'm not really super smart.

I got him into a rescue mission, and then he called me two days later, and he says, hey Rob, I said I need a mentor. And you know, I'm not really super, super smart. I said, well that's great, you know, I'm not super smart, but that's a good idea. And he goes, yeah, I want you to be my mentor. And I said, no. Oh.

I said, well, that's great. That part was smart, but I said, that's a good idea. And he goes, yeah, I want you to be my mentor. And I'm.

I don't go downtown. At that time we lived on about 40 acres and I'm more comfortable on a Kubota tractor doing projects and even though I had bigger things, I always enjoyed kinda not going downtown big towns. So I ended up being his mentor, which really was taking him to church every Sunday and picking him up and he'd...

lunch with my wife and family and then.

Ultimately, the board of directors of the rescue mission asked me to be on the board, which I had turned them down five times. And then they had a luncheon. And like I'm pretty dang slow a lot of times, and they take me to this luncheon, and there's a guy that's doing his testimony about how his life's changed. And well, shoot, at that point, I said yes.

He had a luncheon and like I'm pretty damn full of life. I think he just luncheon and he started doing his testimony about how life changed and at that point.

Okay, and my background remembers finance. I didn't ask to look at the P&L, profit and loss or the balance sheet. I just said yes. So it was a hard moment. Get there within about four months, find out they're financially really insolvent and they've been around for over 40 years and they're building, they had told me their building was paid off.

And my background number is fine M. Right. I think S.

However, they forget to tell me that they had a line of credit that was maxed. And so, executive director resigns. At this point, I see my opening. I figure, hey, I've done my God thing with Tim. Tim's already left the mission. And I've been on the board of rescue mission. I figure, hey, I'm going back to my normal life.

And I'm good because I just said, hey, we probably should just close this place down, sell the building, pay off all the debts, and distribute the proceeds to another nonprofit. And the executive directors asked me to, I was actually out hopping into my four by four tile and they said, hey, you know who should run this place? Still had no clue.

I was actually out to meet up and into my four-by-four style. And he said, hey, you know who's the brother of mine? Still can't know who it is. Hehehehe.

They said, you should. So I ended up running the rescue mission. Within three weeks, we're out of money, out of cash, or out of, I mean, we couldn't even cover payroll. The water company was going to shut off the water once the power got shut off.

So anyway.

I ended up staying, ended up turning around the mission, paid off pretty much the whole line of credit. And during this time, there was this building from Michigan Department of Correction that they had vacated and some investors had owned, which is now Exodus Place. And I had it set to be donated to the rescue mission through a very large corporate donation. And the...

Oh, wow.

and the board of directors said, hey, you just got us out on the fire. We're in the skillet right now. That's the skillet on fire. Right.

Board of Directors says, hey, you just got us out of the fire. We're in the skillet right now. We're not looking to get back in the fire. So my journey is I'm thinking, great, I can get out of this. I've done Tim. I've been on the board. I've saved the rescue mission. I've done my good thing. I'm going back to my normal life where

I get to go on these long vacations, Ritz-Carlton, and cruises and stuff. So I resign because the board turned the donation down. And I'm thinking, hey, I'm good. And about two weeks later, I'm out with dinner with my wife. And yeah.

Yeah.

It was unbelievable. I'm not really a crier, but all of a sudden I started crying and it was as if the Holy Spirit just hit me and said, I needed to do this. And this was 2009, highest bankruptcy, highest foreclosure, highest unemployment. I mean, this was not the time. And then it's for men. I mean, the building's really set up with those gang bathrooms, so it's only for like men or women.

This was 2009. Highest pay person, highest proposal, highest unemployment. I mean this is not the highest. And this is for men. Right.

And I knew men, so it was men. I'm like, men aren't cute and cuddly. So I'm like, this is bad. And my wife just looked at me, she goes, I think you should do it. I said, this is absolutely insane. This is probably most likely gonna fail. And she goes, you look convicted, Rob. I mean, this is what you should do. And I ended up starting Exodus Plays,

Yeah.

first name was Exodus building. Exodus was, we're across the river in Grand Rapids, so the rescue missions and the community services are all on the east side and we're on the west side, so the guy says, hey, this is exiting our old way of life and we're coming into the new way. And so, it's, so, yeah, it was a crazy ride. And the...

Hmm, interesting.

The thing is, is we leased the building, at least it for $100 a month, with the agreement to assume there are nearly $300,000 in back taxes. They said, hey, well, as long as you raise enough money to pay the back taxes off, you can, we'll work with you, but if it starts to look like you can't keep up with the back taxes, eventually get them paid off, we're gonna pull the plug. And so, and then the building had been,

Hey, as long as you raise enough money to pay the back taxes off, we'll work with you, but if it starts to look like you can't keep up with the back taxes, the best is to get paid off or we're in full blood. And then the building had been flooded. Oh no!

flooded. So yeah, it was probably the worst of the worst. So worst economy, probably the worst demographic. I mean, you know, I would have rather had puppies, kittens, or, you know, orphans or widowed women. But here I'm dealing with men and then, and then they're coming out of prison. So, you know, back then, you prisoners are

felons that got out of prison, it was really difficult for them to get jobs. So everything was stacked against me and the whole organization. But ultimately, we ended up as a team. And this is where, like I mentioned, with wisdom, there's been a lot of people in my life to give me wisdom. And the men and myself, we...

We had our job roles, but we always respected each other's opinion and advice. And ultimately, we became the largest transitional housing facility in the state of Michigan.

and ultimately, the largest business in the world. Wow, what a story. As I think about your journey, can you tell us kind of, you kind of touched on you were trying to, you're working with men. What is the mission of Exodus Place? If you were trying to find what are you trying to accomplish with those men? Because you had the trifecta, bad economy,

Yes.

Working with men, ex-cons, I mean, it just, there were so many things stacked against you. So what are you trying to accomplish with these men to help transform their lives?

Our clear goal is a hand up instead of a hand out. And with that, creating a foundation, some of the foundational items is, one, there's no violence in our facility. There's violence, you're removed. I mean, you can cuss every once in a while because they're going through tough times and so there's frustration, but there's no violence. And...

Hmm.

To today, right now, I think it's been over two years since we've had a skin to skin, where somebody's punched somebody. We have 135 men. It's hard to accomplish that deer camp, with like five guys. But our mission is a hand up instead of a handout. So we don't fit every, not everybody fits our program. So if...

Right.

you have severe alcohol issues or drug addictions, you're not gonna fit our program because our program's more on the light side. We're working with you. So let's just say you're a heavy drinker and you say, hey, I know I have a problem and I need to start getting off of it. We have enough help with our counselors and our pastors and our medical team to help.

you know, kind of wean people off that way, but we're not a severe addiction facility.

As you think about what you're doing, there are a lot of misconceptions about homeless people. I think you ran across it when you met your first homeless person. What are things that maybe society, when they see their problem, aren't getting or understanding about the homeless situation most people find themselves in?

The thing that bothers me the most is the generalization. I've heard home challenged, homeless, unhomed. They're all labels. If you start calling the person by name, Jerry, Joe, Jim, and realize that they are actually a person, and

Right.

and not generalize, all of a sudden, it takes on a different role on how you're looking at solutions. Because if we're just looking at the homeless, well, let's put, like California, I think they put, what was it, 24 or 34 billion dollars into the homeless last year. And money's not gonna cure it. It assists in coming out with a desired outcome, but just throwing money at things

There's a lot of programs that are ineffective, that aren't getting measured, and they go, like, I say they, people that are not familiar with the lifestyle and the needs will create this program thinking, well, this will help them. Well, and then they forget to ask the homeless person, and it's a person, what they need.

that are ineffective, that are getting measured, and they go, I say they, people that are not familiar with the lifestyle and the needs will create this program thinking, well, this will help them, but then they forget to ask a homeless person, that's a person, what they need. Right. Good example, we got through a lot of rough stuff, and we're...

Good example, we got through a lot of rough stuff and we're stabilized to a point where I said, hey, we have a nice budget and we have a nice plan right now, we're not at risk of losing the building. I said, we're gonna have a steak dinner. Okay, this is coming from me with a full mouth of teeth.

stabilized to a point where I said, hey, we have a nice budget, we have a nice plan right now, or we're not that risky losing the filming. I said, we're going to have a steak dinner. OK, this is coming from you. We're the most powerful team. Right.

Guess what happened? I got so many complaints that I had a steak dinner. And these were all great, you know, big old steaks, filets, rib-eyes, T-bones, they could pick anything they wanted, they could order any, they absolutely hated it. And I said, what's up? And they go, I got two teeth in my head, man. He says, how am I gonna eat steak?

Yeah

And so, you know, that disconnect, and that's where, you know, I think if we focus on a relationship with the homeless and ask them what they need, we can help them far better and greater than what I can. You know, if it's all in my mind of what's a solution, it's not gonna work, but together, I keep finding.

Right.

Together, we always find the best solution together, not just one person trying to impose my ideas and my thoughts on another person.

So I just, I can't get that picture out of my head. So we're, so our approach to homelessness is we're offering steak dinners to people with no teeth. And we're wondering why it's not working. That's interesting because I think, I remember working with a particular community, it was all Hispanic, and working with a congregation who wanted to reach out to them. So they wanted to celebrate Cinco de Mayo with that community, thinking it's how we could relate to them. Well, they didn't serve.

what would typically fit a Mexican community, they served brats and sauerkraut. And I'm like, so you talk about disconnect is like that really isn't understanding your community. And I think it's really kind of a widespread problem I see when whatever there is an issue in a community, if you don't talk to the people that are directly impacted by your great ideas,

then you don't really understand what their needs are.

You're exactly right.

Yeah. So think about just your community. What have you found to be the most effective way to help the homeless in the Grand Rapids area? Which I love Grand Rapids, by the way. I heard that I've been there a couple of times and I know that you are now the microbrewery capital of the world, but that's a side note.

Oh yeah. You know, I use rescue missions like to rest on John 3.16 and I rest on John 3.17, Christ came to have a relationship with us and not to judge us. And I'm paraphrasing that, but it's pretty darn close. Our secret at Exodus is relationship. Every time that we try to just...

Right.

execute things more in a binary way. It's like, hey, this is what needs to get accomplished. Without relationship, it fails. When we start developing a relationship, and there's some, I mean, it's a difficult situation. We get some guys in that are severe bipolar schizophrenic and delusional and...

Right.

So it takes a bit with our medical team, our case managers, outside case managers to connect with that person. But relationship is the number one factor. People say, well, you have a big building, that's easy. We can build all these apartments for the homeless. We can put them all in there and it's going to fail.

And people say, well, no, housing first, that's the right way to go. And it's like, no, you get somebody that's bipolar schizophrenia or has been homeless out in the tent for so long, really there's a lot of community there. And then you isolate them into an apartment. The isolation gets so loud in their head that they leave the apartment and they go down to the soup kitchen or the rescue mission because that's where they're at.

They're used to. So it's that relationship is more critical than housing. Housing, we can figure it out. I mean, housing, we have a classroom that's, you know, 20 by probably 35 feet long. It's that I can put probably 30 people in there. I can house them easy. I can feed them easy. But I can't have a relationship with them easy. And that's where the secret sauce is in curing our homelessness.

I can't have a relationship with a person. And that's where the secret sauce or the secret danger in a home is installed. As I think about what you're saying, it looks like we need to figure out a way to deal with individual needs, but we're not scaled to do that. Excuse me. And so how do we, I think we like the idea of like have just one mass solution, but we're not scaled for relationships. And so...

You're right, we're gonna have difficult times understanding that every single homeless person has a different unique situation and circumstance. So if you had a message, I guess, for those who say, this is something that's been on my heart, I've been watching it on TV, it's burning in my heart, what advice would you have for a community or a church that says we wanna do something with the homeless population? Where would they start?

Really meet one of the homeless peoples and find out what their name is. Ask questions. I bring people into Exodus and they're successful people and I love them. They're great friends and great people. They jump in with solutions. And I'm like, okay, do you know where this guy's coming from?

Right.

or, you know, because we're dealing with men and, oh yeah, I go, okay, all your bills are paid. Do you ever worry about food? No, do you ever worry about, you know, wanting to get drunk or high tonight? Well, no. Do you have three, four kids that you can't afford and they might be all in different adult foster care or, you know, out throughout the, you know, area? No.

So your solution fits your demographic. So I would suggest always sit down with somebody that's challenged and take some time, ask a lot of questions. We don't have to come up with solutions right away and see where they're at, ask them their story. Kind of like what you're doing with me today is...

do a mock interview and say, hey, you know, what's going on in your life? I met with a relatively famous person here that ended up going to prison. And I said, okay, what happened in your life? And he told me what happened as a child. And I said, oh.

He goes, you know, nobody asked me about that. They're just asking me about what I did. And I said, well, there's always a story behind how you got there. Like for the churches or for somebody that wants to go out into the community, find out where the person grew up. Find out what happened with their parents, their aunts, uncles, you know, their mental health.

Nobody asked me about that. Nobody asked me about what I did. Right.

And people don't like to talk about mental health, but we'll talk about Biological, you know the flu or kovat but the reality is our brain gets like a flu at times, too You know if you don't have enough sleep at night you can you're not quite on your game and that doesn't mean you're Mentally ill but it's you're mentally challenged at you know to figure out complex problems So to ask some of those questions of seeing where they're at

That's a lot better than coming with all the answers and.

for answers that, you know, you might give them answers that really aren't gonna fix any problems.

that you might give all the answers that really aren't needed in some problem. I love that, that's really true. It reminds me of some video I saw where somebody's like, here we come with all the answers, but no one's really asking those questions. So.

Exactly. I'm working on a large multi-family project. I do my real estate development. I have my company and then I also have Access Place. I've been toying with a big multi-family project I'm doing and this morning I realized I'm not asking the right questions because there's some just

Right.

with land development and then building. And there's a lot of factors and less complex than a human being. But I realized I wasn't asking the right questions. And since I wasn't asking the right questions, I was going down, I knew I was going down the wrong road. You know, it's, and it, I don't know about you, but you go to the wrong direction. It's not much, it doesn't have much with GPS, but have you ever gone down the wrong direction?

And then you go, oh, I've wasted all this time, this money. I feel stupid from, you know, that's how I feel, stupid. And then you got to backtrack. And if I had asked better questions or asked directions, you know, my wife would say ask directions. But fortunately, I have GPS now. You can probably remember when you had to ask for directions. Or I had a map, you know, paper map.

Oh, yeah.

Hehehehe

But you know, you got to ask those really, really good questions to help the person that you're helping or helping yourself.

Exactly. I'm curious, Rob, this is a fascinating conversation, but I'm curious in terms of where you're at today. What are you excited about in this season of your life?

Um, I'm excited about our-

I'm excited about our current problem, because I see our current problem is.

We have a lack of acknowledging humanity right now. People are hating on people. I mean, if I say one wrong thing, well, I don't like this guy at all. Well, you know, hey, I'd love to go out for ice cream with Biden. I think Trump should probably be in the basement with some of his ideas and take his Twitter account or ex account away, you know? There's...

Mm-hmm.

right.

something good in everybody. And I can focus on the good and not focus on the bad. You know, we have to acknowledge some of the bad, but to focus on the good. And where I'm seeing things go, Keith, is we're getting such a huge problem with the cancel culture that I believe that it's going to ultimately

change around where people are like, you know what, we're tired of this. This noise has gotten too bad. And I'm excited that humanity is gonna really start coming back where people go, you know what?

That person slipped up what he said. I know that person. He didn't mean that. And I'm not gonna hate on him. And so I think our problem now with humanity being so commoditized and so, I guess just spiteful and hateful towards people, I think it's gonna get to a point where.

it's boiling over and people are going to start going back towards humanity and saying, you know what, it's just not comfortable to take that hate on and that, you know, whether it's Fox, you know, you get the Fox News camp, you get the MS, you know, NBC camp. I mean, I think where I'm at right now that I'm super excited for is humanity come in and get some more understanding and showing love and compassion.

or the Fox, you know, you took the Fox News camp, you took the MS, you know, NBC camp. I think we're on that right now, but I'm super excited for this new end, I mean, it's more exciting, so we're working on that. That would be a nice switch because it is getting a little tiresome. Oh, is that? I know.

people.

Oh, is it?

I was in, I've traveled to Europe the last couple years, and whether I was in Spain, Italy, Paris, London, the general person there, it's just traveling, whether they're from the US or from native country, they're tired of the political and the news, and they go.

And when you start talking to them, they go, we really just want to get along.

Right.

And so the whole world's like this. I mean, it's not just the United States. We'd like to think United States is the only country in the world, but the reality is we have eight billion people on this planet and most of them want to get along and work together.

Most of them want to get lost. Right, exactly. I'm curious, Rob. I'd love to ask my guest this question. What do you want your legacy to be?

Um...

Helping the people, and it doesn't have to be homeless, really help anybody that I'm in contact with to become a better person so that they enjoy their life better and then make a positive influence on other people's lives.

I like that.

So, as we wrap up our conversation, what key takeaway do you want the audience to get from our discussion?

look for the relationship with people.

And we don't always have to be judging them in a negative way, but really look for that relationship first, because that's the critical thing. And if you're in business or nonprofit, it's funny, my business is Thrive, because I focus on the relationship with my subcontractors, my customers, my tenants, everybody. I'm so focused on relationship and...

being a peacekeeper and trying to...

lift them up, that ultimately that relationship is, I mean, that's such a secret to my business right now and my nonprofit is that relationship and seeing who they are.

That's awesome. Where can people find you? And if I could, they find the Exodus place. They could learn more about what your ministry is. And also if they wanna talk to you, connect with you, figure out how they can do it in their own location.

Oh definitely. It's www.exodusplace.org and somebody can fill out a contact form. Then I have my own personal website which is rob. And so you can check me out both places and just see what we're doing.

Rob, thanks so much for this conversation. Thanks for what you do, how you pour into men's lives and hopefully transform their lives and get them on the right track. Because I think what you're doing gives us hope that we can solve a problem that looks insurmountable to solve.

Oh definitely. Thank you. I appreciate this Keith.

Thank you.