Welcome to episode 1, season 1.

Catalyst founder Felice Schwartz embraced a vision for the future of the workplace in her 1992 book Breaking with Tradition based on “fulfillment, both personal and professional,” where everyone is “able to define and pursue their goals freely, regardless of gender.” 

From this initial vision, the Catalyst of today strives for “workplaces that work for women.” This is the future of work we at Catalyst seek to create at workplaces everywhere. This is our why. 

How an organization communicates its commitment to diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) work makes an impact—both to the outside world in this moment of anti-DEI pushback, and internally to employees who want to know their company cares. 

For this first episode of Breaking with Tradition, hosts Lucy, Victoria, and Erin sit down to set the stage and discuss both the Catalyst “why” and why it matters that we talk about it. And as can be expected from a research organization, we bring in some evidence-based insights to back us up! 

Hosts

Lucy Kallin, Executive Director, EMEA, Catalyst

LinkedIn | Bio

Victoria Kuketz, Director, Corporate Engagement, Canada, Catalyst

LinkedIn | Bio

Erin Souza-Rezendes, Vice President, Global Communications, Catalyst

LinkedIn | Bio

In this episode

• 1:07 | The origin story. The inspiration for this podcast, Catalyst, founder Felice Schwartz and her 1992 book Breaking with Tradition.
• 4:28 | Building a human-focused workplace. Women are half the population, but they're also not a monolith. Victoria, Lucy and Erin discuss why gender equity is critical to diversity, equity, and inclusion.
• 9:35 | Finding your voice. Why it's important for companies to talk about equity and what it looks like.
• 15:35 | World-class employers. Why some companies are building workplaces that work for women despite the DEI pushback.
• 19:35 | Modern-day rebels. How our hosts break with tradition.

Favorite moments

• 1:41 | Erin: As someone who works in communications here at Catalyst, you know, I think about our work as breaking with tradition all the time. Because really, what we're focusing on is our shared humanity.
• 2:18 | Victoria: From a productivity crisis, AI upskilling and adoption across industries, we're constantly facing new and emerging challenges. So this breaking with tradition theme really resonates with me because we need to innovate and from a DEI perspective, upskill and leverage the entirety of the workforce to meet these challenges...
• 10:32 | Lucy: 76% of employees want their companies to take action. And I think that's where Catalyst comes in. I'm leaning forward because I'm getting too excited now.
• 12:33 | Victoria: DEI is for everyone. And it really makes cultures better. It leverages talent, it lets people lean in. Because there is that slippage in that understanding we are seeing DEI backlash.
• 14:10 | Erin: It's true there is DEI backlash. I won't minimize that. But is it true that companies are stepping back or not fully embracing it? I think for organizations that were committed, they're unapologetically so.
• 14:35 | Erin: Diversity, equity and inclusion, if it's working well, what does it really look like in someone's life? It looks like sitting here on a podcast at home while my daughter is getting on the school bus because I'm working from home.
• 16:42 | Lucy: The ones we're working with are the ones that are looking to embed it as a cultural shift. That gives them what I said at the beginning, a competitive edge, a differentiator in the market and an attractiveness to an employee.
• 17:48 | Victoria: What I'm actually seeing with the incredible supporter organizations that I work with is that they're actually doubling down in these times. They're actually saying that, you know, what's going on social media as a political project is actually not going to affect our commitment to be world-class employers.
• 21:22 | Lucy: I think I've always broken the tradition because I always start from there. From the why have we always done it that way?
• 22:47 | Victoria & Erin | You're an Innovator. Yea, that's just your energy.

Fun Facts

• 93% of employees say that it’s at least somewhat important for their organization to be vocal about its DEI efforts, yet 1 in 4 employees say their senior leaders never or rarely engage in DEI.
• 76% of employees want their companies to take action – and ensure their workplace is diverse and inclusive to all.
• More than 50 countries will go to the polls in 2024.

Research you can use

• Your guide to DEI messaging
• Shaffer, E. & Torrez, B. (2024). How to talk about diversity with employees to achieve your company’s objectives. Catalyst.

About us

Catalyst is a global nonprofit supported by many of the world’s most powerful CEOs and leading companies to help build workplaces that work for women. Founded in 1962, Catalyst drives change with preeminent thought leadership, actionable solutions, and a galvanized community of multinational corporations to accelerate and advance women into leadership—because progress for women is progress for everyone.

Hi everyone. Thanks for joining us on the first episode of Breaking With tradition. I'm Erin , and I'm sitting here with my fellow hosts, Lucy Kallen and everyone's warm. Hi. You too. Erin.

Hey. You too. So good to see you. Okay. And I want to kick us off by saying that this podcast really draws inspiration from Catalyst founder Polly Schwartz, who in her 1992 book called breaking with tradition, envisioned a workplace based on quote unquote fulfillment, both personal and professional, where everyone's able to define and pursue their goals freely, regardless of gender.

And I think it's I just love that. And I think it's a goal that we're still working towards, frankly, even over 30 years later. Right. and that vision really resonates so much. And I think our organization as a whole, and as someone who works in communications here at Catalyst, you know, I think about our work as breaking with tradition all the time.

because really, what we're focusing on is our shared humanity. And in some ways, that can feel revolutionary. Yeah, I know what you mean. There. I'm with you. I like that feeling and preservation. Right? Yeah, I totally agree, Aaron. This is the future of work we at Catalyst really seek to create at workplaces everywhere. That's really our why.

And when I think about it, as well as in my role as director of Supporter success, I'm always thinking about the wicked challenges we're facing worldwide and especially within corporate, from a productivity crisis and I upskilling and adoption across industries. We're constantly facing new and emerging challenges. So this breaking with tradition theme really resonates with me because we need to and innovate.

And from a DEI perspective, upskill and leverage the entirety of the workforce to meet these challenges and guide our clients in not just meeting those challenges, but also really building from that equity lens and position themselves as industry leaders and doing so.

Yeah same here. And Victoria touch on a really good point when you said because of the work we do with the global organizations that we work with and as the so my role at canvas as an executive director, I never go after the Emir. Well, I think working with tradition resonates with me a lot because not just for my field itself specifically, but also just in terms of like how people feel in the workplace.

We've moved so much in the last few years from perhaps doing what you would normally just is just required of you to actually thinking about whether the workplace matters for everyone. And that actually resonates with me. You know, that it's that the changing of the role slightly to you come in. If you've graduated as a law student, you photocopy X amount of briefs for 600 hours, whatever, and then you start doing the real work.

And to actually thinking about why people stay and I think is at the very core of that. So we thought it would be fitting, to kick off our first episode, by discussing countless the why deo diversity, equity, equity and inclusion matters and also what it is that we're seeing other organizations do to continue keeping it as an agenda item.

As can be expected, the catalyst for research organization, therefore, most of everything we'll talk about will be evidence based with evidence based, data backed, and we'll be talking about real examples that we're seeing organizations implement out there. And so the things we're talking about are not based on just theory, partially based on real examples of what organizations are, grappling with right now.

I love that that's so well said. Lucy at Catalyst. Our vision for the future, as we all know, is workplaces that work for women. So let's talk a little bit more about why gender equity is critical to diversity, equity and inclusion work. So I guess a couple things that I'm thinking about today is that Catalyst really focuses on women because women are half the population.

It's important to note, though, that, the experience of women across the world and, you know, we're global, not for profit, women are not a monolith either. So not only do many belong to other marginalized and intersectional groups, but gender itself is on the spectrum, and Catalyst research is about empowering companies to create a workplace that's equitable for everyone, and really understanding those deep intersections and the breadth and depth of the work.

I think what else I'm thinking about, the other thing I'm thinking about is it's also a simple way to start looking at the challenge of creating an equitable workplace. So if we can start by creating that for women, we'll make huge strides in lifting up other marginalized communities as well. If we look at Catalyst History and why Philly Schwartz founded the organization in the first place.

And as we know, but for the benefit of our listeners, that was in the 1960s. We've really risen to meet the challenges of the moment as we've evolved. Yeah. I mean, think about, yeah, I mean, you think about, you know, 1960s in New York and I'm sure around the globe, too, women were, very limited in what, you know, expectations work for them.

and so just to speak specifically to why police, started Catalyst. I mean, she was thinking about ways to help women get back into the workforce after their they, you know, raise their kids to school age. Their kids were back in school. And. Yeah, just saying, you know, how can we support women on an individual level sort of reenter, right, or enter for the first time?

and, and also so important to note that, you know, it's true that for some women, work has always been part of their lives as a necessity. you know, my own family have always been part of the do what you got to do crew. and it wasn't a choice, right. but that just thinking about, you know, 1960s, America just because of where we were sitting.

Right. and so that that work has since evolved to not only tell, you know, women, this is how you can advance your own career, but to say this is what organizations, leaders and companies need to do to create the environment where women can show up, stand and and thrive. Right. So, I'm really motivated by that approach that, we're not fixing women, we're fixing systems, we're fixing, policy, we're fixing structure.

and, you know, we talk a lot about that. What are the policies that we have to put in place to ensure that people can feel included, that we have, you know, promotion mechanisms that are equitable? All of that is the how that's so important. It's how we actually get the work done. Right. But to me, when we talk about gender equity and diversity, equity, inclusion, it is about finding ways for people to show up in their full humanity.

And it's as simple and as complicated as that. if it weren't complicated, we probably would have, you know, this wouldn't be an issue. We would have solved it, six years and. Right. so I, I like to think about kind of stripping it down to its most basic, which is how do people embody their full humanity in the workplace?

and that's not easy for many, many groups of people, including women. Yeah. You make a really interesting point. As funny as as as a, as on a call early on today. And I loved the way, one of her supporters described, building up on the equity space, building equity space in the workplace. And she said, and I think this is also relevant as maybe 50% of, I think 50% of population of countries are going to the polls to vote.

Right. I just said it's it's up to the leaders to create diplomatic, safe environments in the workplaces that can appeal and work for everyone. I thought that was absolutely spot on because the US, you're going to vote, we are going to vote here in the UK. and so but, I loved the sense of the responsibility of the leaders and thinking about a workplace that is safe and it's diplomatic and it's welcoming for all.

I loved that, I thought that was really good. So you're totally right. So and what I was saying at the beginning, when I'm saying that, you know, changing a workplace from something that is you going, you do x, y, z, you clock in, you check in, you do this, you do what's required and you leave to actually 90% of the time where I in the workplace, wouldn't it be great for that time that we're there for it to be, a place that we all can thrive?

And our research also shows that 93% of employees say that it's important for their organization to be vocal about defects. and yet, 1 in 4 of the employees said that their senior leaders rarely or never engage in data conversations. Well, there's different reasons for that, right? There's a bit of I don't know what I want to say.

I don't know what my stance is, I don't want to get it wrong, etc. but if you think about the fact that it's like 93% globally of employees are saying, I would like us to have the discussion. I guess the question to leaders is, why aren't you engaging with? But also the other thing is, it's not just about talking about you, you know, because I think there is there's a bit about like, let's just talk about it.

And, and also, and not actually that you have any actions, but it's not just about talking about 76% of the employees want their companies to take action. And I think that's where Cutlass comes in. I'm leaning forward and getting too excited now, but I think that's where this gets in. It's like 76% of your employees is so 93%.

Let's talk about it. That's 1 in 4. And then 76% are saying, take action, and ensure that your workplace is this is diverse, inclusive for all. And I'll still, borrow what I heard this morning. and it's the for can say for but just with that, I mean, I never that was really good. I love the fact that you were taking me on the journey when you agree in the 60 years.

And I was kind of like coming with it, going, we're here. And what's changed? we've got kind of look at the US. I've got a question for you, and this question I'll answer myself as well, because it's. So what are the headwinds your region is facing? What are you hearing? And, Victoria, we was talking about the fact that you're out and about.

You're in meetings continuously the last few days. Just would love to know what are the headwinds that you're hearing or seeing in your different regions. Thanks for the question, Lucy. I really have the benefit of being out in community the last three days. And, you know, I was really thinking about the fact that we're in a situation where where we really have to continue to evolve to meet the new 2024 challenges of workplaces everywhere.

I think when we look systemically and not just in my region, we are seeing moments of DEI hesitation, as you said, which I think that leaders absolutely have to be able to work through this much better to be, communicating earnestly with your employee populations and avoiding this topic or speaking about it at all. I think people can absolutely hold space for authentic leaders that they trust who are trying to communicate about DEI, rather than just avoiding the topic whatsoever.

And then I also think we need to see the entirety of the entirety of the employee population understanding their place within the DEI conversation DEI for everyone. And it really makes cultures better at leveraging talent. It lets people lean in. And I think that because there is that slippage and understanding, we are seeing some DEI backlash. And so I think it's really important that men specifically understand not only their place, but their leadership within the conversation as well.

And that's why I'm really proud of our Mark Marca program, men advocating real change, which is, I think, really being uptake, a uptake in across organizations everywhere so that we can really understand that Di is for everyone. Erin, what do you think? Yeah, I love that. Victoria. Yeah, I you know, I think that the, the truly is for everyone.

And I think that, you know, the phrase the acronym has been weaponized and turned into something that we we know it isn't truly at its core, diversity, equity and inclusion. Are there outcomes that we hope to see in workplaces? Right. And that's, I also think if we give examples of what does that actually look like in practice, it helps people understand better what is that they're actually trying to accomplish.

Right. So, you know, we're certainly in the United States, I think seeing, a lot of that sort of public narrative about push back. And I'd be interested to hear from from both of you, if you're actually seeing that, in, in companies themselves. Because my take is that maybe that's the, you know, the public narrative is, you know, DEI is, you know, it's true.

There is public backlash. I won't minimize that. But is it true that companies are stepping back or not fully embracing it? I think for organizations that were committed there, they're unapologetically so. Right. And I would love to hear from you, too. Who have, you know, you're really working with companies every day on this. And the one other thing I'll say is, you know, on the examples front, we can talk about diversity, equity and inclusion as if it's working well.

What does it really look like in someone's life? It looks like sitting here on a podcast at home. Well, my daughter is getting on the school bus because I'm working at home. I'm able to help her do her morning routine and then hop on a podcast. It's flexibility in where and when and how we work. That's diversity, equity and inclusion.

That's drives gender equity in the workplace. Right. it's being paid fairly and having transparency around that pay. And, if there is a gender gap in that pay organization, knowing that and knowing what your company is going to do to fix it, right. That's diversity, equity and inclusion. So I would say I think, you know, especially from a communications perspective, the more we can give real life examples and show what this means for real people, the better.

I love that. I think, Victor, I'm going to jump in next because I'm going to go right ahead. So but but I wanted to answer that question about how is this showing up in your region as well. Right. And and I'll tell you where and organizations dialing back because if you tell the right irony and you're right, the backlash is real, whichever way it may come and it may come through, they may call it whatever you want to call in terms of fatigue.

But what we are seeing actually, for those, I guess the dial back to what I think, if you want to call it that is organizations that have seen this as a project. So we're going to do DEI for a period, which means that we're just going to do policies. We're going to change x, y, z. that yeah, it's a one off project or we're going to do x, y, z.

Yeah. Then you can write off because you, you didn't link it to anything that mattered. You didn't link it to strategic objectives. You didn't think of it as, a market leader. This is what you want to be or competitive edge that it will give you or, a part of when you think about your missions and your values and all of that.

So the organizations that have looked at it as a one off thing, they're probably doing something. But then there's another organizations we're working with, the ones we're working with are the ones that are looking to embed it as a cultural shift. That gives them what I just said at the beginning, a competitive edge, a differentiator in the market and attractiveness to an employee and understanding that says that if you don't change.

And to Erin's point about if you do not think about the the environment you need to create for your employees, women, men so they can take the kids to school first, or you know, they can do this. And if you don't have flexibility as making a note when you were saying that you don't have flexibility, then you will lose out because you're competitive across the street.

We'll have flexibility. They'll say you can come in whatever and they'll get the most out of it. and I think that's that's for me, the organizations that we're working with that are smart leaders and others that are the ones that are looking for lasting impact that's culturally embedded, that's going to be the norm. Wow. That was a powerful statement, Lucy.

I love how you phrased that. and I think just the way in, Erin, I think you're right. I think that what I'm actually seeing with the incredible supporter organizations that I work with is that they're actually doubling down in these times. They're actually saying that, you know, what's going on on social media and as, a political project, is actually not going to affect our commitment to be world class employers and all the things that Lucy just outlined, to be innovators, to embrace the future of work, to leverage all the talent they have in their organizations and correctly to not categorize, you know, personal commitments and workplace commitments as well.

You know, if a mom does need to drop off her child at school in the morning and the school drop off time is 8:50 a.m., that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that they can come to work, you know, 20 minutes later and really, be the leader that the organization is working for and be productive and really deliver on the goals of the organization.

so I think it's really about embracing the, you know, the entirety of people's lives and knowing that, when you do that, people are with you, that you've earned their trust and that they're going to be there for you and they're going to give you their all. Yeah, I love that. I mean, so true. And again, this is what when you're doing diversity equity inclusion work well and for the right reasons.

To your point Lucy, because it's truly, aligned with the mission of your organization and your values, you'll do well. We know we know that companies who do diversity, equity, inclusion well also do well. You know, in terms of, you know, employees who feel included are more productive. This is this is helpful for, for businesses. Right.

And it's the right thing to do for it is the right thing for you. Okay. Well, I can talk about this with you all day and look at whether you're I sometimes we do get to get to in our roles talk about this. but before we, sign off, of our first episode of breaking with tradition, I wanted to ask if you could think about, in your own experience.

in your life, in your in your work experience, when you've broken with tradition. Tell us about that. Oh, that's an amazing question. I think that for me, it was really about changing industries and deciding that Catalyst was absolutely the right place for me and where I wanted to make my professional home. My background is really as a public policy researcher, and I had a focus on democratic engagement for the last ten years, but in every way, that's the I.

And so I came to this recognition, that in doing that work in studying populations, I looked at polarization last year before I came to Catalyst, I looked at the needs of communities across the nation and, really had important takeaways there. And what I realized is that things like economic prosperity, pay equity, trust all of the things that we're working on at Catalyst every single day really stood out to me as an employer.

That was level set for 2024. And I think that, you know, I broke tradition and I entered a new industry and actually as just come up on my one year anniversary and I couldn't feel more fulfilled or proud or happy. Yeah. Lucky us. You've been here a year. It feels sometimes like you've been here forever, actually. Like what?

It was victory and out with that. So congrats. One year as a Catalyst this year. That's awesome. Oh, yeah. So you must have joined just when we came in around the same time today. Congratulations. In your timeline. Right, Lucy? Your timelines. Yeah. Congratulations to you. so I'm slightly different because I like the fact that it returns kind of like nailed in terms of, like, when she's done it.

Like when she's quite specific. I think I've always broken the tradition because I always start from there. Why have we always done it that way? Yes. Why? What's that? I've always kind of go like, yeah, but why? And I think it's even from when I was at school, the things like I went are very sort of very traditional version one has to wear I'm, you know, have a straw hat and all that.

And I remember saying, well, and then you had to be set in college and I thought, now I'm just so I actually, I did do this whole thing about attempting to, dye my hair blond. It came out gold, which wasn't really what I was going to get to, but, I think I've always I've always gone for places where they'll say.

And I and I joined a telecoms are one of the biggest telecoms organizations here in the UK early on. And that was definitely we do things this way. It's always done that way. And because server like what? Why do we do it that way? So I think I've always gone into places where I feel like there could be improvement here.

We could change something if we just stop thinking about that. That's the way we've always done it. And so I'm always attracted to stuff that's the bit like we've always done this and I'm like, but it's not working. So, why don't over shift it? So I don't really have a specific thing so I can go. Yeah, okay.

I took this and that was breaking tradition. I think I just generally do it anyway. You're an innovator just in your energy. Yeah, it's just your energy. Enough. I, I think I try to, but I do think that there's, I think there's something about accepting what we think is the norm. and I tell you the reason why it's I my father was a huge influence in my life, and my father said to me, I have four brothers and I remember when we were growing up here, I'll be like, oh, I can't do this.

And you'll be like, why? And I said, oh, because the boys can do it. And of course, yeah, but you're first and foremost Lucy. and then the next bit identify. So I think it's always about the stuff that you should do that fit within your things that you know how to do, but also not accepting that to say that something is the right thing to do, because we've always done it that way, that doesn't that doesn't normally it's not useful for the future.

It's sort of like that's totally breaking the traditions. I don't totally I love that you both have examples that are, you know, about your I almost like your career, right? My just a little more tactical, I would say like a, you know, an instance. Then I broke with tradition in the, in the workplace in particular, was a great working.

I started out right after college working in a in politics and in government, and, male dominated continues to be, and, you know, I think even just showing up as myself in a space that was not designed for people like me, and, and being genuinely me and, you know, not trying to shift into kind of the more masculine norms that I was seeing in terms of, you know, my behavior, my dress, even, kind of, you know, management style.

I it wasn't easy to do. And looking back, I mean, that was almost 20 years ago. And I think, oh, little, little me in that space, like, without even realizing at the time, just like my presence in the arena as a young woman, around a bunch of people who did not share those identities. that's tradition in a way.

and also it, another, another time when I repetition and I hope that it helped others do the same thing and actually change a tradition and sort of set a new norm was, right after I had my daughter ten years ago, I was working, in a job that I absolutely loved. I was working in communications at an organization and that, was helping to understand the obstacles and opportunities for women in politics.

And, you know, what are the challenges when we're trying to help women ascend to, you know, the highest offices? And interestingly, a lot of the challenges are very similar to what we see in business and in every other space. Right. so that's not surprising. All right. I was, you know, had a very long commute. It was, you know, far from home.

And it was pre this was, you know, of course, pre-COVID and when working remotely and hybrid was not the norm. And I very quickly realized in order to be the type of employee I wanted to be, have a job I loved and be the type of parent that I wanted to be. I had to have a hybrid schedule so that I could physically be present more and frankly, not commute three hours and be exhausted when I got home.

So I asked if I could have a hybrid schedule. And I know this was, you know, in 2013, and because I made the case for that, was unapologetic about why I, why I should do it and could do it. and then that set a new precedent for the organization, and it was available to everyone. Yeah. You just have a round of applause.

That's a great story. so I'm still proud of that because it felt like, yeah, a bit of a norm change. And it's so interesting to think about it now. Like how much change we've seen in ten years. Like we're all sitting here working remotely. The three of us, at least, you know, and many organizations are doing that, or at least having discussions about what hybrid should could look like.

that's a pretty rapid pace of change in a decade. I that's a fabulous story. I'm sitting here and you reminded me of something because when you talk about the male dominated, and I think we should talk about this at some point, you know, like, what do you do when you enter market or an industry that feels like you're the only, and how do you cope?

And also the armor and all of that stuff. And the bravery to speak up. I just thought that some of the stuff you talked about there and just so profound, and also how we forget those moments, right, where you've changed the policy because that's what you did. Yes. Created a policy in a working environment for your colleagues. I wonder how many people also knew that that was because of that?

It was triggered by what you requested and and felt inspired, right? Yeah. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Yeah, totally. That's a great story. you should tell me. You want to tell everyone about that Catalyst. What? Yeah, I mean, that's going to. Well, you know, it's it's interesting because I thought of it as, okay, I'm advocating for myself. So it was more of the like, okay, how can if we're looking at sort of the traditional model of, of advocacy, it's like, okay, individual woman, what are you doing to help yourself?

And actually, yes, that was the case that actually what it turned into was a systems shift. and part of it too is I had a, manager and mentor at the time who was very unapologetic and authentic about her own identity as a working parent to, and so that was modeled and seeing, you know, seeing, her ability to say, okay, I have to leave at five, I have daycare pickup and doing it not and not saying, oh, I'm so sorry or, you know, just doing it.

So I think she also unknowingly was modeling how to break with tradition a little bit too. Okay. So mentorship and sponsorship, you know, critical that that could be a whole other topic. And, you know, actually I could bring it home and back to Phyllis Schwartz. I think about what you did, and I really think about her in that moment as well.

Right. We think about one individual woman sitting at a table advocating for a better career and system for herself. And now we look six years later and we're joined by global community of the most incredible organizations across the globe. And so it goes to show you that individual advocacy can actually lead to global change ups. Right. And actually, it's good that, Erin, one of the things you talk about is the leaders and you're giving that example, that woman I had a really good manager at one of, organizations where I think there's always this theory about it's not the same now, but from, if you're in the office, you won't leave because you're

walking around looking around and you feel this anxiety about leaving early and what manages to dos at it, when we should be leaving shoes to walk around and speak to everybody in the wherever they might be sitting and saying, what are you doing this evening? Which was her way of saying, time to go home. So what are you doing this evening?

I love that times if you gone and she literally. And I just to figure out really it was literally just it to get to I think it was like 530 whatever I should come around and say, so what are you doing this evening? And you think, yeah, this evening. yes. It was like a mind shift, but, and those are just subtle things that you used to do.

and I pray that one day I'm at least half the manager that has to share what she shares because she would do this, things that were just sort of so considerate. And what it meant is you have the permission to go now. There's no need to carry on. It's fine. Just go. Go and start the life you've been at work.

Go and spend some time with your loved ones or just go do something else for yourself. I also always remember then I think that's such a good way of saying it's the end of the day. I love that, I love that, may I borrow that? Because, you know, it's heart is I think it's something that's even harder to do as a manager when you're managing folks in a remote environment, because you might see their little, you know, their green on teams or whatever.

but, you know, you know, we're not seeing them throughout the day in the same way. So yeah, could be as simple as a message. That's right. Okay. This has been truly I mean, what a joy. It's been so much fun. to start breaking with tradition with both of you, Lucy and Victoria. and with this podcast, I hope that we'll continue to challenge, the now and embrace new as we strive for a better workplace, for women and for everyone.