Shownotes
This week, we’re joined by Phil Armstrong from the Early Excellence Curriculum Team as we explore effective transition processes within the EYFS.
Transcripts
00:00
Here at Early Excellence, we specialise in early childhood education. We offer expert advice and guidance through training, consultancy and classroom design. With the Early Excellence podcast, we aim to inspire and support you as well as challenge your thinking. So if that's what you're looking for, you've come to the right place.
00:26
to episode 115 of the Early Excellence podcast. This week coming up we have got a podcast interview with my colleague at Early Excellence, one of my colleagues at Early Excellence, Phil Armstrong, who is on our curriculum team and we have a really great, well I think a really interesting conversation about in-depth transition.
00:47
about really getting it right. So not just thinking about dates that are in the diary, you know, around meetings for parents or new start of visits, et cetera, but really thinking about the depth of practice. And so we cover lots of things. We talk about three key elements of practice around transition. So we talk about the child, the environment, and the adults as well. And then we go on to talk about key tools to really use.
01:14
when getting to know your children in terms of starting points. And so we talk about, again, in quite a lot of depth, we talk about getting to know your children well, not just in terms of what they can do and not just in terms of what they already know, but also about kind of those learning attributes. So we talk about the tools of Professor Ferrell-Avars.
01:39
wellbeing and involvement tools and how we can use them as part of the transition process. Okay, so lots of depth here, lots of conversations around key elements of practice to really think carefully about transition and really getting it right, aiming to get it right. Okay, so I hope you find it interesting. I'm sure you will. Here's my Early Excellence podcast chat with Phil Armstrong.
02:10
Phil, hello and welcome to the podcast. Hi Andy, it's great to be here again. How are you doing? I'm very well, I'm very well. Yes, all good. The sun is shining. It's, yeah, it's feeling quite spring like. So yes, I'm all good, all good. Everything all right where you are? Yeah, similar actually. Yeah, daffodils, well actually no, daffodils have gone over. Bluebells are flowering. It does definitely feel like spring. It's a great time. Perfect, perfect. Right, so because we are now into the summer term,
02:39
Of course, thoughts are starting to go towards transition for many people. You know, starting to think about next year's cohort coming into school, starting to think about processes for transitions, starting lots of people starting to think about actually what do we need to have in place? And so at this point in the year, of course, it's always going to be a hot topic transition. So we're going to talk all about transition, aren't we? We're going to talk all about the key things to consider.
03:09
and how actually it isn't just something to think about in the summer term, but actually something to think about really throughout the year and to have embedded as part of your practice. We're bringing out very soon a reflection tool for people to use in terms of transition, which will be really, really useful, I think, to people. It's something that you'll be able to access on the Early Excellence websites. And so in line with that, I think actually it's a really important thing for us to talk about.
03:38
So transition then. Where do we start with this? Because it's a huge thing, isn't it? Transition, getting it right is huge. Where do we start? What's the easiest way to look at it, Phil? I think for me, the starting point is kind of reflecting on your normal processes and the things that are in place already and how those have been working well for your children, for your team, but also for the parents and carers of those children as well.
04:06
And I think as you were saying there, Andy, it's not an event, you know, it's kind of not this dramatic event which sometimes it can turn into. And that bit of reflection I think is really important. Conversations about what have we done? Why have we done this? So you've got almost like a baseline about your current transition processes. Yeah, I think it's a lot of work that Julie Fisher, I'm sure a lot of people listening are familiar with Julie's work and in her Moving on to Key Stage One book, for example, she talks a lot about transition and how we need to think about the processes involved.
04:36
And of course, never forgetting at the heart of that process is the child. And how often the transition kind of transition when we think about it in schools or moving into settings, we tend to think about it from an administrative perspective rather than from an educational perspective, perhaps, and those kind of relationship kind of aspect of it as well. And it's interesting, of course, because we're recording this.
04:58
the day after when lots of parents will have found out in schools in England about where their children are going to be going to primary school in September as well. So it's definitely a very kind of topical moment to be having this kind of conversation as well. So lots of you will be familiar with the Olexans kind of triangle that we use to help structure some of our thinking and as part of our courses and training and so on, which is based around kind of Holy Trinity, the EYFS, I sometimes think of it as the child.
05:27
the environment and thinking about those positive relationships and thinking about adults. And I think using those as a structure can be really helpful, not only in evaluating your current transition processes, but thinking how to strengthen them and how to make them as effective as possible. And as you were alluding to there, Andy, the idea that it's not a one-off thing. This needs to be something that we think about long term.
05:51
So when those children have moved on into September into a new year group with a new teacher and building those new relationships, how do we sustain previous relationships? So we're not having a cliff edge at the end of every year. So I think there was a lot to kind of unpack, but I think that kind of triangle can be quite helpful. I think. Yes, definitely, definitely. So we're gonna talk about the child. We're going to talk about the environment and we're going to talk about the adults in relation.
06:20
to transition. Okay, so the child first of all. Of course, the child has already had many transitions when they come to us. You know, whether actually we're talking about coming into nursery or whether we're talking about coming, you know, starting at school in reception, the child's already had quite a few transitions when you think about it actually, you know, from staying with different people to perhaps going to a childminder perhaps, perhaps going to a...
06:50
nursery setting, a private nursery setting maybe, there will probably have been a range of different transitions leading up to the transition either into nursery or into primary school. It is quite an interesting thing. What else do we need to think about in terms of the child then? I think just to go back on what you were saying, I think that is a really important thing for people to reflect on and perhaps children in some ways are having even more transitions they would have had.
07:17
and that kind of preschool experience for the maybe more mix that might have been in the past. We have, of course, more people are working from home. So perhaps their children are spending more time at home rather than going to a setting. We have children who are doing part-time in a setting, sometimes with a child mind. So yes, you suggest it can be a real kind of complex picture for each child. And I think that is a really important starting point for having conversations with parent carers when children are joining us is, what's life currently like for that child?
07:47
Are they used to having different people, to having to move about, to go to different places? And how have they coped with that situation? And how have they as parents kind of felt with that as well? And what's gone really, really well? I'm always a big fan of kind of focusing on what's gone positively and using to draw that on, draw on that when we're thinking about what to address next. So we're thinking about that kind of prior experience of the child in terms of being with other people, but also then thinking about who is that child.
08:16
What really makes them tick? What are they fascinated by? What are their interests? Now, where are they on their own journey of learning, I suppose, and again, recognizing that they're all gonna be at different stages. And particularly when we think about perhaps children transitioning into a reception class and school, how young some of those children will be. And again, when we think about that transition from reception into year one, obviously we're thinking particularly about early childhood education within this conversation, but.
08:44
Children are having transitions every year, when they're moving through school. But some of those children, they're still developing those prime areas, they're learning how to be who they want to be, they're learning how to communicate their needs. So building a really rich picture about who that individual child is, what their interests are, what their unique needs may be as well is so important. What are they maybe scared of? What are they nervous about to part-time transition? Are they able to articulate that as well?
09:13
What do they really love to do? And also where they are in their family group, I think is really important for us to make sure we're clear about. Are they the first child in that family to start school within that particular family unit? And all of the kind of expectations that come with that. Or are they perhaps child number four? You know, and is this something that the parents and girls have been through multiple times? Building this picture that is as rich and as deep as possible, we know it's gonna help us as adults working with those children.
09:43
to make sure that that transition can be as smooth as possible for every child that we're actually going to be working with. Yes. So very much when we're talking about the child, it's very much about gaining information, isn't it? It's about really getting to know as much as possible. And of course, the process of gaining that information is also valuable in that through gaining that information, you're also hopefully building trust, building trust with parents, building trust with, with
10:10
carers and also with previous settings etc building those relationships of course is key. Okay so we've talked about the child, let's move on to our second point on our triangle then and that is the environment. So the environment itself, this is an interesting one isn't it, that for children with varying experiences, prior experiences, they will respond differently to the
10:40
as we have it within our early years setting, whether that be in nursery or whether that be in reception. So as you mentioned before, there is such a vast variety of experiences that children might have had, from going to a childminder to going to a nursery setting to having been the fourth child in the family and therefore they've been already into reception multiple times as part of drop-offs and so on.
11:08
There's a huge difference between that and a child who actually hasn't really left the family home at all or very much and hasn't really had that many different experiences. And of course, you can see that in the children, can't you? You can see that, you know, for some children stepping into an early years environment, maybe a very busy reception classroom with lots and lots of choice, could be potentially incredibly bewildering.
11:34
Whereas for other children, it's exactly what they need at exactly this time, because they're all set. They're ready to get started. And trying to balance that out, I think, is really difficult. Trying to work out actually, how do you meet the needs of that really broad range of need, I think, is really difficult. So we do need to think about the environment. So let's get...
12:00
into that then what does our own what do we need to consider when we reflect on transition in relation to the environment then? So I think yeah as you touched on that I think it's that recognition that the children joining us may have had very very different experiences and not starting with any assumptions you know so when we're thinking about their experiences and resources we're offering those children as part of the child initiated opportunity and play.
12:28
It's we can never come from the perspective that they know what these things are, that they've come across these things before. Now, if you've got a nursery within your school and most of those children transitioning in from nursery into reception, you've got kind of more information to draw on, kind of thinking about, OK, they've had these resources before. This is a continuum part of that process. But perhaps if you're a reception teacher who's got children coming in from 10 or more different settings, plus those children who may be
12:55
working with a childminder, children who may be at home with parents. We need to gather as much information as we can about what's their play experience been like, what the resources they've been exposed to, how independent have they been in using those resources to explore, to play, to kind of challenge themselves as well, what experiences they've also had about working alongside other children. It's part of that process as well, I think it's so important. And then really thinking about what am I going to need to do to
13:25
help these children access this truly enabling environment. You know, we give children agency, we enable the children to go and access amazing provision, both inside and outside. But alongside that, we need to equip them with the skills, knowledge and standards so they can use these resources to follow their own interests, to create, to work together, to problem solve. So I think it's that really careful kind of exploration, observation,
13:54
and conversation amongst colleagues, thinking about, well, actually, they don't know how to use this resource. And we thought they did. Well, maybe the cohort the year before came in really amazing at using Lego, for example, and then the children that come in this year typically did not use Lego before. And it's taking that time and never assuming that the children know what is there. What are things called, for example? And that's where we as adults can really help them by ensuring that we are as consistent as possible.
14:24
So is every adult really knowledgeable about the resources that are available? So they can be the best possible partner in playing and learning for those children, but also be really effective guides in terms of introducing those resources in a developmentally and sensitive, appropriate way for those children. And so never assuming, I think, is always my kind of starting point. But at the same time, really carefully think about how you're going to introduce resources and watching those children think, actually, yeah, they've got real expertise.
14:54
that group of children, could we use them to be great modelers of how to use those resources to the other children? And I'm sure you love it as well when you see children who are experts in using something and how they teach another child is really fascinating. And this was something that really struck me, particularly working in a nursery environment where you have multiple points of entry across the year to children joining you at many, many different times. So you don't have that kind of one starting point.
15:23
which is almost from an ad-hocs-fectivism, was slightly easy to manage in terms of introducing resources. And what I loved seeing in nurseries was those slightly older, more experienced children suddenly becoming the teacher. You know, it's like, oh, we've got new children, can you show them how to use these areas of provision? And how they do it can be sometimes far more effective than we can. You know, they're almost, they're easy, they can get into the shoes of that child sometimes more easily than we can in the language they use and the particular skills that they demonstrate.
15:53
So really understanding that environment, really knowing about who those children are, go back to that first point of what's their interest, what they're fascinated by, but really thinking about how we're gonna make this environment be as effective as possible so that no child is kind of overwhelmed by it. Because it can feel very overwhelming, particularly if you've got a very big group of children and resources that children have not seen before. So yeah, never assuming, I think is always my starting point. Yeah, definitely.
16:22
I was thinking alongside that, I was thinking that particularly early on in the year, I mean, ideally throughout the year, but particularly early on in the year, using the wellbeing and involvement scales, I think can be really important to you. I think it can be really useful and can be very important. And so, you know, for example, when we're thinking about wellbeing, considering reflecting with, you know, when the children have started, when they're there within the environment,
16:50
Where do you see those high levels of wellbeing? Which areas of provision support that? I think is quite an interesting conversation to have. So, for example, I tend to find, and it's kind of anecdotal, I suppose, but I do tend to find that the more sensory experiences tend to be the areas that children will go towards when they are needing that, that sort of emotional support really. That you'll often find children who are...
17:17
upset because perhaps their parent has just left, you know, just dropped them off, they will go towards something like the water area, but it's quite a soothing sort of space. There's a tactile element to it. It's very much non-threatening, isn't it? There's not a right or a wrong way to do something really in that area. And I think the sensory experiences, children find that quite calming. And so...
17:44
You know, thinking along those lines of actually which areas of provisions seem to provide kind of some emotional support for your children in kind of helping them turn around that sort of difficult time at the start of the day perhaps or whenever it might be. Actually that's worth thinking about because if we don't do that, then potentially, you know, you've got a child who is dysregulated, maybe a child who's finding it difficult to engage with other children or whatever it might be. We know.
18:14
that of course, unless children have that high level of wellbeing, then actually they're not going to be in the right place for learning. So certainly from a wellbeing perspective, but also from an involvement perspective, which areas of your provision are you seeing higher levels of involvement in? And conversely, which areas of your provision are you not seeing much involvement in? And that's where, of course, we would come back to what you were saying before of
18:42
Do the children know what to do in that space? Do they know how to use the resources? Do they know what the possibilities are? And so, yeah, I think from both perspectives, wellbeing and involvement, I think that can be a very useful tool in terms of transitioning. I would completely agree. I'm a personally huge fan of the wellbeing involvement skills because they are such a valuable tool in terms of evaluating our own practise and provision, but also at times of transition.
19:10
really, really effective. And if we were thinking about particularly if you children transitioning through perhaps the same school, so going from two year old provision into nursery, into reception, if we know there's a child who's got generally a high level of wellbeing and a high level of involvement, and then we start to see a dip occurring as part of that transition, that should start to raise some questions. Now it's natural for change causes a dip in our kind of wellbeing sometimes, that insecurity.
19:39
But if then it doesn't come back up again, it starts to raise some questions. I personally used to find the Stu scales, sustained shared thinking, emotional wellbeing scales really useful as part of that strategy, because we know, don't we, that if you've got high levels of wellbeing, high levels of involvement, they are quality indicators of good practice and children are open to learning and recognising where children are going, where they're not going, why are they not going there? Why are those children not really exploring everything that's on offer?
20:09
These are questions that we need to be asking ourselves. And that's why I've seen in some settings where adults, rather than always starting the day, perhaps in a nursery with a key group in the same space, they actually rotate where they're going to start. So it's raising the children's awareness of different areas of provision. Because for some of those children, until they're feeling more confident, they're always gonna wanna be with that key person. That's the first person they're connected with within that particular setting.
20:36
But if that adult is only ever starting the day in the block area, there's a risk that that child may only ever stay in that block area or wherever that adult goes. It was actually by rotating and showing that the adults love being in all of these spaces. Then that's communicating a really positive message about the environment as well. So, yeah, I would wholeheartedly agree. I think using those kind of leaving skills is so, so powerful. And I think regularly revisiting them as well.
21:05
Because there's activities that we do sometimes on the training and the kind of concept of care with activity from Lueven, where you ask adults to write down all the children that they work with. And often when people do it, say you've got 25, 30 children in the class you're working with, there's usually one or two children get missed off. And it's not always the same children or the children who you think it's going to be.
21:29
Sometimes those children are right at the front of the blind. It's often someone perhaps the children have drifted a little bit into the shadows. And the idea being that we can only really hold so many children in our mind at certain points of time. So revisiting that list regularly is so important. So often I'll encourage a school or setting to revisit it and do that activity about every six weeks or so. And just double check, is every child in the sunshine? Is every child under a spotlight?
21:56
so that nobody's even missed in terms of their wellbeing, involvement, their learning. And particularly at times of transition, when there's so much going on, there's lots of business, there may be some children who are taking more of our time than other children, is there that risk that we're missing out on a child who's perhaps has slipped a bit into the kind of the wings, I suppose, really. So yeah, I would heartily agree. The Leuven scales, they should be shouting about them more, I think. Yeah, absolutely. You know, they're...
22:25
They can very easily, I think, be missed. We could easily sort of, we're so busy, aren't we? In particular at the start of the school year, really busy time, of course, we've got such a lot going on. And yet actually, unless we get that well-being and involvement really working well, actually we're not going to see the same, we're not going to see the same level of learning, the same level of progression either. Yeah, definitely. The other thing to say, I think, in terms of environments is that
22:55
We've got to think very carefully when we're talking about transition. I think one thing that I often see is that we are very, I suppose we're under pressure, we feel under pressure as teachers, as practitioners, to show that this year group is a step forward from the last year group. Okay. And of course that's right. And it should be, you know, reception shouldn't be the same as nursery year. One shouldn't be the same as reception. Of course.
23:24
But I do think that sometimes because of that pressure and because of that need to show a difference, we sometimes go too far in that trying to show a difference and that that manifests itself within the environment. And so if nursery have got this set of construction, then we have a completely different set of construction and so on. If nursery have got wooden blocks, we don't have wooden blocks, we have something else because they, nursery have got those or whatever it might be. And...
23:53
The danger of that though is that transition is even more of an event than it needs to be. And I think it's far more effective to think about the continuity as well as the progression. That of course there is going to be progression, of course there needs to be, but it doesn't need to be for every single resource. Okay, so no, I'm wording that wrongly. There does need to be progression.
24:21
However, it doesn't mean we change the resource. Okay, so some resources of course will show progression. If they're the same resource, they potentially have a broad range of possibilities. And then actually we don't need to stop using them at the end of nursery, because if it has a broad range of possibilities, we can carry on, we can carry on into reception. We could even carry on beyond.
24:50
if possibilities allow into year one. But I think sometimes we steer away from that. And I think actually that makes transition more difficult. Do you see what I mean? I completely agree. And I think there's a great value in familiarity. So particularly that kind of transition process. There's even things I've seen in some settings in schools where when children transition from nursery to reception, there's a familiar set of books, for example.
25:16
So it's like, oh, I know this book, I've seen this story before, because books give us tremendous comfort and security sometimes. But yeah, also that, oh, I know how to use that resource. So when you're transitioning, transitioning is such an emotional process and it's all about sorting your relationships. It's so complex. So actually to move into an environment where everything else has changed as well is really overwhelming. If we think about from an adult perspective, moving from one school to another school,
25:44
We kind of know we've been through transitions in our adult kind of life, we're kind of used to that. But suddenly we find we're in a school where we don't know how to use any of the equipment anymore, we don't know where things are, we don't know what things are called. It becomes very overwhelming. But if you go to a new school where actually, ah, they call something the same name, something is located in the same place, that reduces that anxiety and it allows us to function more effectively in our roles. So yeah, I completely agree.
26:11
Often what I say to people is it's not the resource that has to change, it's the teaching. So it's thinking about the potential of that resource. So again, you'll see that, won't you, mid-year sometimes in reception classes, year one classes, nursery, it's like, oh, we need to change the resource because they're not moved on with it. And often it's because we haven't thought about how to move on with that resource. And also in thinking about...
26:33
having similar resources. I mean, blocks, as you know Andy, that other people listen to me a lot, I love blocks as a resource because they're incredibly versatile. What you see a year one child doing with blocks will sometimes be very, very different to what you'll see a three year old doing with exactly the same resources. And it's that unlocking that potential rather than necessarily changing the resource. And it is that kind of balance, isn't it? What I found really interesting is some of the skills we work with, we do have two year olds coming all the way through.
27:04
is they've really looked together as a team from early years through and perhaps even into year one, year two is, okay, we have these resources, but what's different in the way these children are using it? What's their progression journey, I suppose, and how do we support them with that rather than saying, oh, we can't have that because we had it when the children were younger. I think it's just constant conversation and reflection and thinking about what is gonna be most appropriate for the children that we're working with, but change for change sake.
27:34
never good. Yes, yeah, absolutely. I certainly think that's an interesting thing to consider. So for people who visit for early as teachers, for reception teachers who visit perhaps previous settings, having that conversation about actually, well, which resources do you have, which are very popular for your children that are going to be coming to us? Which areas of provision tend to be the ones that get used a lot by the children are going to be coming to us in reception?
28:00
And really looking at that continuity for those children so they've got something familiar to come into, I think is an important conversation to have. The other thing I was going to say around this as well was that there was some really interesting conversations that I've had previously on the podcast with teachers and practitioners around role play and how actually you can use role play as a...
28:27
as a tool for supporting transition and the kind of the emotional discussions around transition. So, using role play in terms of, say if you were in a reception class and you've got children moving from reception into key stage one, or maybe from nursery into reception, that you can actually, you could use your domestic role play as a prompt for talking about transition, about change.
28:54
Is that something you've come into contact with? Yeah, I've seen that. I've certainly seen where people have used stories to help support with it as well. So there's some really kind of fiction, stories about starting schools, starting nursery, those sorts of things. So it's kind of, again, helping children see things from someone else's perspective, but actually it's also their own perspective because that's the same anxieties they may be having. I've seen schools where children have created like a class book for the next children who are joining.
29:22
So it's like, if these children are gonna be joining our class, what would you want them to know? Which is really interesting. So it's like they're giving them ownership. I've also seen in some schools where the children, and it's usually done in this term, where they've made a book for their next teacher of all the things they love to do. So again, it's quite a nice kind of thing, you know, to kind of share celebrating that these are all the things we're really brilliant at. These are things we really love to do. And it's all very much from child kind of voice perspective. But...
29:50
helping to start that relationship and to build that relationship going forward. So I think anything that kind of helps the child be part of the process, particularly when we think about that environment and that because that it's their space of work, it's where they should be feeling really confident and exploring what's there. So yeah, I think I've not seen in the home corner. That's a really interesting one. Yeah, I was thinking of the school that, and I'm trying to think which which school it was, is it?
30:19
It was a nursery attached to a school and, or as part of a school and what they did was they put the home corner up for sale. Oh yeah. Remember that? Have you seen that? Yeah, I've seen that one before. They put their home corner up for sale at the end of the year and the children basically boxed up lots of the things within the home corner as if you were moving house and they put a for sale sign up and all of those sorts of things and they used it as a way of talking about transition. So they talked about, well actually.
30:49
you know, has anybody moved house before? Has anybody, you know, been, you know, moved house and what does that feel like? What's that like when you have change in terms of where you live? And of course, you know, that leads into that conversation about how at first it doesn't even feel like your own home, you know, you just almost feels like you're in somebody else's house. And then over time, eventually you start to feel more at home, you come back into your
31:19
your new home and actually it feels like home and you relax into it. And of course that then you can use that quite well because you can then talk about that alongside transition within school and you can say, well, actually, when you first move into your new classroom, it won't feel like your classroom. In fact, you'll, you might well want to come back to your old classroom. It will feel really strange, but then over time, actually, you will, you know, you'll start to settle into it.
31:47
And over the first few weeks, you'll start to get back into the routines of it. And maybe there'll be new things as well for you to discover and to learn and a new routine maybe, but you'll really start to get into it and you won't even think about the last year group after that. And it's, it's that sort of, I suppose, using what's familiar is an experience for some of the children to then talk about actually what is coming up. And so, yeah, the, the, I think the home corner was, was, was packaged up.
32:16
boxed up and then unpacked when they started in reception. And we've talked, I've talked about that with quite a few schools actually. And that idea of, you know, how we tend to set our classrooms up, almost like show classrooms, but children join in September and it's the whole get it all ready and we forget that it's their space, I think sometimes and the home corner can be a great option. So yeah, I've certainly seen the model where schools will pack it up in July. And then the new children joining. They open up.
32:46
the home corner with the adults. So it's literally like they are moving into the classroom. So other spaces may be ready to go, but the home corner is like, we're gonna set up this house together. And just like when you unpack your own home, you never do it all in one go. You know, there's certain boxes you do first and gradually do it, which of course gives a great opportunity for conversation and look, talk about vocabulary and so on. But also it's giving that ownership to the children as well. So the new children, this is their new home.
33:16
when they're joining rather than a show house, which is what sometimes it can kind of feel like. And the impact, certainly those schools that I know have talked to about this is they said the children really felt ownership of this space. And would obviously, as a consequence, would spend quite a great deal of time in it. Linked into it slightly, I know you've talked with Amanda from Binkham about the baby project and things that they've done before in the past. And I know as part of their transition process, the children from
33:45
that was the baby they were going through, through inter-reception. That was included as a part transition. So that kind of seamless journey, it was like, no, this is the next step that goes along with this as well. Um, so yeah, that ties back into that familiarity, but also that sense that can we keep some things consistent? You know, can we really think about, does it all need to be so dramatic? I guess it is the ultimate kind of question we need to keep asking ourselves. Yeah. No, really interesting stuff.
34:14
Okay, so we've covered already two of our points on our triangle. We've talked about the child, we've talked about the environment, which of course brings us on to our third point, which is crucial of course, and that is the role of the adults in terms of transition. Really important of course that adults build those relationships, spend time building those relationships, you know, right from the word go, but also, you know, kind of before that really.
34:42
And it always strikes me as interesting that in terms of transition processes, schools and settings vary hugely in terms of what it is they do for transition. You know, you go to one school where they say, well, we do home visits. We've always done home visits. It's difficult to arrange. It can be a pain sometimes in terms of timings, etc. But then actually, we...
35:08
every, you know, our members of staff, we go out and we meet every family, meet every child in their home environment where they're most secure. And then you go from that end of the spectrum to actually, you know, the transition processes are a one visit. It's a kind of, we open up our early years classroom, the children come in with their parents, they get a kind of an afternoon of being in the classroom and a chat to me and all of that sort of thing. And then that's it until they start pretty much.
35:38
And it strikes me there's a world of difference between the two different approaches there. And so I thought it'd be quite interesting to talk about the role of the adult and of course actually what key things we need to consider as part of those processes. Where would you start with this? What would be the key messages do you think? I think it's again it's a bit like a unique child we need to think about unique adults. So for some parents and carers, as we said earlier that...
36:06
It might be the fourth child who's joined that school. But even then, we can't assume that that parent is feeling the same about what is happening about that child going to school. If it's their last child to be joining the school, it might be an incredibly emotional kind of process, as well as the first one joining. And it goes back to what you talked about with trust. And a number of years ago, I was at a conference and somebody talked about how often education, perhaps people don't value.
36:35
you know, themselves enough, really. And this person, very, very powerful, he said, we must never forget that every single day, parents give us the most precious thing in their lives. You know, they give us their children, they trust us with these children. But it can be a very anxious experience for parents, particularly if they've not had a positive experience at school themselves. We must never assume that they understand the vocabulary of our school or our settings.
37:01
We all are immersed in these environments. We know all the kind of acronyms, we know all these sorts of things. And it's a bit like when we go into a different workplace environment and people start talking about something and they assume we know what they mean. They don't always know what we mean. So we need to make sure that our communication is really, really clear. And giving parents that time to come back to us and ask those kinds of questions, because it can feel quite intimidating sort of process. Not only is it an anxious process, it's not.
37:30
I think it's Polly Shields in:37:57
talking about not only what their child was going to be experiencing, who those adults were around them, but also about things like curriculum, what the child was going to be learning. They felt they were very much part of it, but it was done in a very sensitive, not overwhelming way. Whereas, in some cases, suddenly where they might have had a really positive relationship with the nursery, the child arrived at school and almost the parent was kind of like, there you go, thank you very much and goodbye. And these kind of extremes.
38:26
and parents worrying about doing the right thing or doing the wrong thing, being told off and so on. So I think it's having a really honest, open and ongoing relationship and not expecting transition conversations to be over the first week of September. This thing needs to continue. But what I have seen some schools and settings do is regularly revisiting the process with parenting.
38:51
How is it going for you now? Six weeks later, is this all okay? Do you understand what we're saying here? Never ever assuming that everybody understands the same message in the same way. It's strange really. I've also seen some strategies where schools have, you know, they've considered doing the traditional let's bring your children in and do like a stay and play in nursery. They've done that, but they've also done a time when just the adults can come in when there's no children.
39:20
so the adults can explore the environment. They get a sense of, oh, that's where my child's peg is gonna be. That's where the toilets are gonna be. All these things that cause anxiety, this is where they'll go to get a drink. This is when they start talking about this area because often when a parent is visiting perhaps with their child, they're not able to take all that information in because they're thinking about their child, they're thinking about things that are going on. So almost giving them that freedom to explore. And I've seen that work particularly well. And thinking really carefully about
39:49
those initial parent kind of care introduction meetings, they're often done later on in the evening, aren't they? Can everybody come? Are they really accessible? I know some schools and settings use video as well for those people who can't make it. So it's like, here's who the key workers are gonna be. Here are the office people. These are the people around supporting your child. But thinking about what information is gonna be really helpful for that parent that moment in time and what they can't take on board. They're probably not.
40:17
going to be ready to sit and listen to the whole UIFS, for example. You know, there are going to be other things that they're really worried about. And we can always come back to these things later on, but it's really having that conversation about what would be helpful to you? What would you like to know? What would reassure you? Um, when we do kind of sessions about transition, we often end up talking about things like Maslow, there's kind of hierarchy of needs and the things that, you know, if children are worrying about lunchtime, snack time, toilets, all those kinds of things.
40:47
that's gonna be a block to accessing lots of other things that we're offering for them. And if their parents are worrying about that too, that's another block that we're putting in place. So if we can provide all that reassurance, I remember there was one setting, we had conversations with about children transitioning to school and how complicated lunch was gonna be for those children. Some of those children had never used, they had to suddenly use trays for carrying their lunch on and these children had never had that experience before.
41:17
So as part of the transition process, it was basically helping children learn how to use this. So when they arrived in the school, that anxiety was reduced, their anxiety of the parent was reduced as well. So I think it's really broad conversation about what would you really, really like to know? And interestingly, I've also seen some schools where they've carried on that model beyond early years and to primary where the children transitioning from year six to year seven.
41:45
They've also caught up with parents a few months later on and said, can you just tell us how it went? Are there things we could have done that would have supported that process? Which goes back to this idea of transition not being one off, it's an ongoing process. And what's really interesting from an adult perspective, and less so to do with parents, but more to do with teachers. I do know of one school where the reception teacher regularly goes and spends time in the year one class.
42:15
kind of timetabled in to work alongside the year one teacher to see how those children are doing. And they've said it's been invaluable in giving them insight about what happens more in Key Stage 1. But also she's been able to support the year one teacher so well, actually I could do that before. Or this is something that we're really interested in. All the kind of stuff that you can't do in an hour long conversation. They've got regular timetable time to do. Obviously, logistically that's changing, but they've said it has been really, really valuable.
42:44
But yet the kind of evidence is very clear that if parents and carers are supportive effectively as part of the transition process, transition is more effective. It's just there's no doubt about it. And it reduces not only anxiety in adults, but it reduces it for children as well. And ultimately that's what we're all called. And the two are closely linked, of course, you know, that, you know, nine times out of 10, if you have an anxious child, then actually the parent will
43:13
be anxious as a result or anxious, of course, first of all, and then actually the child is anxious because they are picking up on the anxiety from the parent. And so, yes, having those processes, although they're time consuming, like sort of home visits or whatever else it might be that you do, although it's time consuming, it's always time well spent because actually unpicking issues after the event are far more time consuming.
43:42
They're far more difficult. And also, if you haven't built that relationship, conversations further down the line are more difficult. So if you've built that relationship already with parents and carers, and you've had that real understanding from day one, that really close relationship around understanding their children, understanding where they're coming from.
44:10
then if actually it turns out that actually a child needs additional support for something, whatever it might be, or there is a particular issue in terms of their development, that conversation is far easier to have because you've already built that relationship. Whereas if you haven't, if we haven't put that time in, if we haven't, if we've tried to just get up and running with what we might call the teaching and we kind of missed out all of those other things, then actually...
44:35
It does come back to biters really in my experience. Hugely, hugely. I think also the other group that we need to be thinking about is that wider kind of school or setting team. So often the conversations around transition are with perhaps with the class teacher and the parents of the child. What we forget is that there's going to be a number of other adults who are going to be connecting with this family and with this child as well. So our support staff involved in these conversations, you know, and thinking about
45:05
know, lunchtime for example, you know, it's like, oh here are the new children that are joining us, how is that all managed? Because very quickly we get into school routine and some children we know are very, you know, they just might close in, they might not tell us what they're worried about, what those inequalities are and as you said we can address those quickly if we know and if all the adults that are around that child, it's that kind of village around the child kind of approach, isn't it really, everyone being involved. I always think some of the people that, you know,
45:32
know most about children and families are actually school office teams. You know, they have this very specific relationship with them. So are they part of your transition processes as well, I guess, really, and evaluating how things have gone. Oh, parents are asking the same question. Usually if there's one parent asking a question, there's probably a number of others who would like to ask the same question as well. So drawing on all of that and that bit of time reflecting, I think, is so important. Yes, there's such a lot here, isn't there? You know, we could almost go on all day.
46:02
Unfortunately, we had better probably call time on it. But there is such a lot here to really get to grips with. And there are certain elements we haven't really touched on yet at all that actually you could easily get into as well from baseline and assessment as a starting point, which of course links closely to transition. There's all sorts of other things as well, isn't there? But hopefully the conversation will have helped people get started really with that idea of actually what underpins effective.
46:31
transition, effective transition processes, what are the key things to consider? And hopefully people will find the advice useful. Moving forward, I mentioned at the start of the conversation that we are bringing out a reflection tool around transition with some of the things that we've talked about today that will be included within the transition tool and also other things as well. You'll be able to access it on the Early Excellence website. So go to earlyexcellence.com.
46:59
you'll be able to access it there. And yeah, let us know how you get on. It's always interesting to hear from people in terms of that transition process, because as I said earlier, Ron, people kind of go about transitioning all sorts of different ways. And so it's always interesting to hear from people in terms of how they do it and what's been successful and perhaps what's not been successful. Phil, thank you very much for joining us today. It's been great to talk to you. Absolute pleasure. Thanks, Andy.
47:33
So there you go. Thank you very much to Phil for joining us for this week's episode of the podcast and of course to new people for listening along as well. I hope you found the conversations and the discussions useful. Certainly, you know, thinking about kind of building on our conversation. If that conversation around wellbeing and involvement is something that struck a chord for you in terms of your school or in terms of your setting, it is something that we deliver or can deliver bespoke training on.
48:02
So if that's something that you're interested in, please do get in touch. We can come to your school or we can deliver it. Of course, there's a webinar session as well. I found certainly in terms of my own experience that it can make such a difference. That focus on actually what's behind the learning. Those learning attributes of wellbeing and involvement, really looking at those key areas of what underpins effective learning within the EYFS is crucial. All right.
48:32
So yeah, if you want to know more, if you want to, if you want to know more about our training that we can offer in a, as I say, in a bespoke way, then get, feel free to just get in touch. Okay, drop me an email. My email address is just andy at earlyexcellence dot com, So if you want to know more about training like that, then just get in touch. All right, okay. Very good everybody. Have a good week and we'll see you next time. All right, take care. Bye-bye.
