Shownotes
Elijah from Infinite Defense joins John and Kaylee to tell the story behind Infinity Targets, the self-healing rubber targets he started building as a college engineering student. He couldn't afford the $500 rubber-dummy setups on the market, so he ran his own material testing out in the desert, figured out a manufacturing process, and taught himself business off Google. After shutting down during Covid and working construction and landscaping, he restarted the company from a blank slate on April 20, 2022, out of his dad's garage. Three years later it runs out of a warehouse with more than 60 target designs.
The conversation gets into how the targets actually work. The rubber stretches to let a bullet pass through, then closes back up due to its elasticity, so there's no hole left behind, just a bright contrasting mark you can spray over. Elijah explains the Gen 2 vulcanized recycled rubber, the round-count guarantee of 110 rounds of 5.56 per square inch, why hollow points and slugs are the only things that won't work, and the safety case against steel at close range where fragmentation and ricochet become a risk. He makes the value argument too: one Infinity target outlasts roughly 200 cardboard targets, and the Quantico PMO office cut two to three hours off range days just by not swapping targets between shooters.
Marketing is a through-line. As a young founder who grew up on social media, Elijah leaned on free organic content, watched TikTok become his first big platform before it banned him, and built an affiliate and YouTube creator program instead of print ads. He talks about supporting newer creators his own age and still running the social accounts himself. The back half turns to policy, where Elijah and the hosts go after the ATF, the brace ban, SBR rules, the receiver definition, and the $200 tax stamp that traces back to the 1934 cost of a Thompson. Kaylee ties it to GOA's mandate to protect, defend, and restore the Second Amendment, warning that the biggest risk for gun owners right now is taking a win and going apathetic.
Links
Questions this episode answers
How did Infinite Defense get started, and why did Elijah build a rubber target instead of buying one?
Elijah started building self-healing rubber targets as a college engineering student because he couldn't afford the roughly $500 rubber-dummy setups on the market. He ran his own material testing out in the desert, worked out a manufacturing process, and taught himself the business side using Google.
How do self-healing rubber targets actually work, and how long do they last?
The rubber stretches to let a bullet pass through, then closes back up from its own elasticity, leaving no hole behind, just a bright contrasting mark you can spray over. Infinite Defense guarantees 110 rounds of 5.56 per square inch on its Gen 2 vulcanized recycled rubber.
What are the advantages of rubber targets over steel and cardboard?
One Infinity target outlasts roughly 200 cardboard targets, and the Quantico PMO office cut two to three hours off range days by not having to swap targets between shooters. Unlike steel at close range, the rubber avoids the fragmentation and ricochet that create a safety risk.
When is steel still the better choice over a rubber target?
Elijah says he isn't trying to phase steel out of the industry, and notes the rubber targets won't work with hollow points or slugs. Those rounds are the exceptions where the self-healing rubber falls short.
How did Infinite Defense use social media, TikTok, and YouTube affiliates to grow?
As a young founder who grew up on social media, Elijah leaned on free organic content and watched TikTok become his first big platform before he was banned. He then built an affiliate and YouTube creator program in place of print ads, and still runs the social accounts himself.
How did the company handle social media restrictions and bans on firearms content?
After TikTok banned him, Elijah shifted to an affiliate and YouTube creator program instead of paid print ads, and made a point of supporting newer creators his own age. He continues to run the company's accounts and produce most of its content himself.
Why do Elijah and the hosts think the ATF and the $200 tax stamp don't make sense?
They argue the $200 tax stamp traces back to the 1934 cost of a Thompson and no longer makes sense, and they criticize the ATF over the brace ban, SBR rules, and the receiver definition. Co-host Kaylee frames it as a bill of rights, not a bill of needs.
What does Gun Owners of America say gun owners should do right now to keep the momentum going?
Co-host Kaylee ties the conversation to Gun Owners of America's mandate to protect, defend, and restore the Second Amendment. She warns that the biggest current risk is taking a win and going apathetic, because apathy kills the momentum.
Chapters
- 00:22 — Rapid Fire round
- 02:55 — How Infinite Defense got started
- 04:54 — Going all in on social media
- 06:35 — Surviving the firearms content crackdown
- 08:52 — Testing materials and target longevity
- 10:53 — Rubber vs steel vs cardboard
- 12:39 — What self-healing actually means
- 13:44 — The full target lineup
- 15:11 — Building growth through YouTube affiliates
- 19:03 — Backing the next generation of creators
- 21:10 — From the Soapbox: the ATF and brace ban
- 29:25 — The broom analogy for NFA laws
- 33:20 — Taxing a constitutional right
- 36:35 — Don't take a win and go apathetic
About the guest
Elijah is the founder of Infinite Defense, the maker of Infinity Targets, self-healing rubber shooting targets. He started the company as an engineering student, transferred to ASU after he stopped playing college football, and later dropped out to run the business. He ran his material testing out in the desert and taught himself business through Google. He restarted Infinite Defense from a blank slate on April 20, 2022, building it out of his dad's garage before moving into a warehouse. He still runs the company's social media accounts and handles most of its content himself. Based in Phoenix.
Key quotes
"I was a red anodized AR part guy, just shooting paper targets and whatnot." — Elijah
"We're not trying to phase out steel of the industry." — Elijah
"We just brought a better solution to the market." — Elijah
"It's a bill of rights, not a bill of needs, period." — Kaylee
"Apathy kills the momentum." — Kaylee
"What logical human just goes, I'm stopping because this is hard." — John
Transcripts
Welcome to Gun Owners of America State of the second podcast.
Speaker A:I'm Kaylee.
Speaker B:And I'm John.
Speaker B:And today we're joined by Elijah from Infinite Defense.
Speaker B:How are you, brother?
Speaker C:I'm good.
Speaker C:How are you?
Speaker B:Good.
Speaker B:Coming in all the way from Phoenix, so I don't feel outnumbered today.
Speaker B:I actually have friends.
Speaker A:No way.
Speaker B:Quit.
Speaker B:No way.
Speaker A:You have friends?
Speaker B:No, not a one.
Speaker B:Well, let's go ahead and start off with our Rapid Fire segment.
Speaker B:This is where we're going to ask you five questions.
Speaker B:You answer them as quickly or so slowly as you want.
Speaker B:The first question is how do you take your coffee?
Speaker C:A lot of creamer and sugar?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker A:All right.
Speaker A:Are you a pineapple on pizza kind of guy?
Speaker C:No.
Speaker C:I don't think it's gross, but I don't.
Speaker C:I wouldn't order it.
Speaker B:What was your last impulse buy?
Speaker C:Oh, last weekend I bought chickens just for no reason.
Speaker C:And now I have a chicken coop and two baby chicks.
Speaker A:That's amazing.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker A:That's.
Speaker C:I didn't know what to do on a Sunday and I just like, I saw a tick tock of chickens and I was like, I'm gonna go buy chickens today.
Speaker B:You gonna start a chicken army?
Speaker C:I guess Three eggs forever.
Speaker A:Now, I wish that was the case, but as somebody with way too many chickens.
Speaker B:Yes.
Speaker B:This idea for Infinite Defense, he's going to be signing Infinite Defense eggs on his website.
Speaker B:Go check them out.
Speaker C:Yeah, I mean, at the price of eggs right now, it might be more profitable.
Speaker A:So what are you binge watching right now?
Speaker C:I just finished andor this is like a Star wars series.
Speaker C:I've seen all the other Star wars things and for somebody never watched andor.
Speaker C:So I'd watched that all like in a day last week.
Speaker B:I couldn't get into it.
Speaker B:It was.
Speaker C:I had to like force myself.
Speaker C:It got pretty good.
Speaker C:I think the new one comes out.
Speaker C:I think.
Speaker C:I think last weekend it came out.
Speaker C:So I now.
Speaker C:Time to binge watch that.
Speaker C:All right.
Speaker B:Go to Home defense.
Speaker B:Go to EDC.
Speaker C:Go to home defense.
Speaker C:I always have my main 145 AR just hanging on the wall and then EDC usually carry a Glock 19.
Speaker C:Keep it simple, reliable.
Speaker B:Kaylee, like most Americans, you have a savings account, right?
Speaker A:I do.
Speaker B:Do you have an ammo savings account?
Speaker A:I also do.
Speaker B:And is that through Ammo Squared?
Speaker A:It is, and I've had it for over two years.
Speaker B:Ammo Squared is the only website where you can purchase ammo a little bit at a time and then get it shipped directly to your door.
Speaker A:Absolutely.
Speaker A:I have a Little bit of money that goes in every month and then I can divide what percentage of that money is used for, what calibers of ammo, and then all of a sudden hit a thousand rounds and get shipped to my door.
Speaker B:Well, what if I don't want one of the 70 calibers they have available?
Speaker A:You get to pick and choose and you can even adjust the mounts so that you can hit your target goals faster.
Speaker B:Well, what if I don't want that ammo anymore?
Speaker B:Can I switch it?
Speaker B:Can I get my money back?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:It's really easy and I always like to see the graph fill up at the end of every month.
Speaker B:So where do I go to get such an awesome service?
Speaker A:Go to ammo squared.com get it.
Speaker B:Now start your ammo savings account at ammo squared.com now let's go ahead and just get into who you are, what you do, what the company does, how you got started, all that.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So essentially how the company got started.
Speaker C:I was an engineering school dropout.
Speaker C:Once I stopped playing college football, I transferred to ASU to finish my engineering degree.
Speaker C:I had more time to recreationally shoot.
Speaker C:I was a red anodized AR part guy, just shooting paper targets and whatnot.
Speaker C:But while I was going to school for engineering, there's self healing targets kind of started to become a thing and really the only one on the market was rubber dummies, which I thought was super cool idea.
Speaker C:Very expensive, is like $500 for a whole setup.
Speaker C:And I didn't have the money as a college student living in my dad's house to pay for that.
Speaker C:So I wanted to make something similar, more cost effective, a little bit more efficient that would work with the target stands I already had.
Speaker C:So just did a bunch of material testing, took it all out to the desert, tested it out, figured out a manufacturing process and then it was time to start learning about business.
Speaker C:So spent a lot of time on Google, like how to build a website, how to start an llc, all that stuff and just threw up a simple website and an Instagram page and this was before Instagram was strict on gun account.
Speaker C:So I got a good amount of organic growth and kind of just went from there and then we had shut it down for Covid.
Speaker C: th of April: Speaker C:I started it back up from a blank slate is infinite defense and so it'll be three years this April.
Speaker C:Kind of just started there out in my dad's garage.
Speaker C:Ended up renting a house, working out of that garage.
Speaker C:Eventually I was able to buy a house, worked out of that garage about a year and a half in.
Speaker C:And then we were able to get a warehouse almost two years ago and kind of been there ever since.
Speaker B:So when you guys started back up, you had had those really big social media blitz, you know, what was that like?
Speaker B:What.
Speaker B:Why did you take advantage of that social media kind of content creator space?
Speaker C:I guess I'm just young and I'm always on social media and that's just how I grew up.
Speaker C:So I kind of knew how it works.
Speaker C:Most importantly, it was free and I had to pay for advertising.
Speaker C:I would just make videos because we love shooting.
Speaker C:That's why we made the product and we're always out there testing, shooting, having fun.
Speaker C:So it was easy to get content on our own and so kind of threw it up on a bunch of these different platforms.
Speaker C:We already had a couple followers on Instagram and a couple videos went viral, got us a lot of traction.
Speaker C:TikTok was actually like our first biggest platform.
Speaker C:I think we had 30k followers on TikTok by the time we only had like 10,000 on Instagram and then eventually got banned because they started making their rules more strict.
Speaker C:But that would generate a lot of like sales traffic for us.
Speaker C:And I guess we never just stopped marketing that way and it's just what we know and what I know best.
Speaker C:Now obviously we have paid Facebook ads and all that stuff, but social media is the easiest.
Speaker C:It's free and we're able to interact with our consumers and customers just almost face to face or just directly without having to go through a bunch of other hoops.
Speaker C:And it kind of.
Speaker C:You get to show like your genuine self and the ins and outs of the business and all the behind the scenes which people really like.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker A:That'S awesome.
Speaker A:How has that been, you know, as you know, coming out of.
Speaker A:Of COVID we saw a significant amount of.
Speaker A:Well, I don't.
Speaker A:I guess the best way to put it nicely is restrictions on second amendment content, if not downright ban in some cases.
Speaker A:Like you said with your TikTok being taken down.
Speaker A:Now that we're kind of post election, you know, Zuckerberg and others have made some statements.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker A:I'm obviously very clumsy.
Speaker A:If you're watching this, sorry, just drop my iPad.
Speaker A:But you know, Zuckerberg's made some statements.
Speaker A:Elon Musk buys ex.
Speaker A:All of those things kind of happen.
Speaker A:How has that transition to the kind of the post Biden era changed your all social media landscape.
Speaker C:Currently we're starting to gain more traction again.
Speaker C:We were beforehand.
Speaker C:We've taken measures to kind of counteract all the prior restrictions on social media.
Speaker C:For instance, I don't post any gun content anymore with our official page.
Speaker C:We have a sister company that's an ffl, so I post anything with a gun in it on that account and collaborate.
Speaker C:So I don't get restricted on the target page.
Speaker C:But that might change.
Speaker C:Seeing how restrictions might change based on what Zuckerberg said, I'm not going to hold him to his word or believe that's going to actually happen.
Speaker C:So I'm going to keep operating how I have been operating until I actually see like change across the industry because there are still people getting shadow banned and restricted and banned.
Speaker C:So I'm not going to risk it just because of what he said.
Speaker C:And obviously based on what he said, he's kind of a wishy washy guy just depending on the administration.
Speaker C:So who's to say it's not going to change and another four years.
Speaker A:No, that's an excellent point.
Speaker B:I'm trying not to cough into the mic.
Speaker B:So.
Speaker B:So you came up with this, this product.
Speaker B:How did you, how many materials, how many tests did you go through to find the right material?
Speaker B:And then how do you ensure the longevity of these targets as.
Speaker B:As people are shooting them?
Speaker C:Yeah, so we tested a couple different materials.
Speaker C:Honestly it was about 54.
Speaker C:They're all rubber based.
Speaker C:The one we started the company with, it was a recycled rubber, basically could withstand about 100 rounds of 556 per square inch.
Speaker C:And we've since upgraded to a Gen 2, which is what all our products currently use.
Speaker C:It's actually thinner, lighter and it lasts about twice as long.
Speaker C:It was just changed with the manufacturing process.
Speaker C:Now it's vulcanized rubber, it's all recycled, but there's no binders like urethane or glue in it that kind of would flake off.
Speaker C:So we've upgraded to that, we've tested that.
Speaker C:I believe LA County Sheriff says it about 120 rounds per square inch.
Speaker C:So it's about a 30% longer lifespan.
Speaker C:But we're seeing about twice the lifespan in actual use cases because you're not just nailing one square inch, you're kind of all over the target.
Speaker C:So we guarantee, that's our guarantees, 110 rounds a square inch.
Speaker C:5, 5, 6 per square inch.
Speaker C:But typically on like a full size ipsic target or competitive shooter, see around 7,000 rounds which is mostly 9 and 5 by 6.
Speaker C:There are no caliber limits.
Speaker C:To our targets you can shoot up to 50 BMG, which we've done at point blank range and they're completely fine.
Speaker C:Just the only things that won't work are hollow points and slugs, which is just finished physics and I don't think we're ever going to get around that with this kind of material.
Speaker C:But if you're shooting hollow points at the range, I think you have enough money to buy another target.
Speaker B:So what do you mean it just takes a chunk out of it like it's designed to.
Speaker C:Yeah, like it's a cookie cutter pretty much.
Speaker B:So the people are going to be listening to this and think okay, I've been shooting steel for this long.
Speaker B:What is the advantage to shooting the rubber target?
Speaker B:I, I know the advantages of it, but for those out there who are listening, what's the advantage of having these rubber targets?
Speaker B:What's the, the use case?
Speaker B:Why, why should I switch from a steel target over to your rubber target?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:It definitely specific to their use case.
Speaker C:Essentially we're not trying to phase out steel of the industry.
Speaker C:One we want to replace all paper and cardboard products.
Speaker C:So essentially you're going to save a lot of money over time.
Speaker C:Obviously it's a bigger upfront investment, but typically an infinity target is going to save about last as long as about 200 cardboard targets will, which equates to about $200.
Speaker C:And Infinity targets retail at 139 shipped.
Speaker C:So you save money over time.
Speaker C:But more importantly I think is saving time itself.
Speaker C:Instead of having to paste over individual holes or change out paper targets, you just walk up with spray paint, spray paint over your hits, you have a fresh target ready to go to the next drill.
Speaker C:Plus it's weatherproof, waterproof, it's not going to blow away in the winds.
Speaker C:It's a lot more user friendly.
Speaker C:Hits are a lot more visible.
Speaker C:So there's a lot of value inside of it.
Speaker C:And when it comes to steel, I use it in tandem.
Speaker C:Steel's great for long range where you're not going to see hits on our targets anyways past 200 yards.
Speaker C:But obviously you get the audible feedback of steel.
Speaker C:The only downside with steel is using it in close engagements.
Speaker C:You get fragmentation and ricochet, as you found out this weekend.
Speaker C:And so with our targets, obviously the bullets pass through, there's no risk of fragmentation or ricochet, so they're completely safe to use, which is great when you're training close to medium distance, especially close quarter self defense, drawing from the holster, stuff like that.
Speaker B:And then the other component that I I like about your targets is the, how lightweight they are.
Speaker B:So instead of dragging steel out into the desert, which can be a pain.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:But I can grab a lightweight target, staple it or clip it up to a wood frame instead of having to have such heavy components to get going that which is fantastic.
Speaker B:Now they're marketed as self healing.
Speaker B:How does that work?
Speaker B:What is, what is self healing mean?
Speaker C:So the best way I can put it is basically due to the elasticity of the rubber.
Speaker C:It's like if you stretch out a rubber band, you let it go, it goes back to its original shape.
Speaker C:So essentially the bullet would pierce the material, it would stretch out, allow the bullet to pass through and then due to elasticity, it just closes back up.
Speaker C:It will take some material away.
Speaker C:Obviously they don't last forever, but basically material closed back up.
Speaker C:There's no hole.
Speaker C:But the paint comes off with the round.
Speaker C:So you can see a nice bright contrasting hit of where you shot the target and then you can just spray paint over.
Speaker C:And since there's no hole, it looks like a brand new target.
Speaker C:And the cool part about that is it actually insulates itself.
Speaker C:So you're shooting with thermal optics.
Speaker C:Our targets are, might be the best thermal targets on the market because you can see your hits for about five minutes around precisely through a thermal optic because it insulates itself and you don't need any special pasties or paints or anything.
Speaker C:You just use your day to day infinity target and you can cite in your thermal optic.
Speaker B:And now you guys offer the torso.
Speaker B:Is there any other options out there?
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker C:So we have, I want to say over 60 different target designs now.
Speaker C:We started with the USPSA target essentially when we started, I saw that's kind of what everybody was using as a cardboard target.
Speaker C:So we just went with that style, which worked best for us.
Speaker C:Obviously we've come out with reduced sizes, half size infinity targets.
Speaker C:We have defensive style, like anatomical torsos.
Speaker C:We make all the police qualification targets.
Speaker C:We just came out with a line of like animal plinkers, like a little squirrel, groundhog, bird.
Speaker C:We just did, I think the squirrel with tac pack, which was cool and starting to come out with different target hosts like do it yourself racks and target stands and whatnot.
Speaker C:We do paper targets now as well, bought a paper target printer and just to make some funny paper targets and whatnot.
Speaker C:That thing is used and abused just for the wrong reasons in the office.
Speaker C:But yeah, I mean we're always coming out with different stuff.
Speaker C:We have a whole line of hunting targets now like boar, deer, Coyote, turkey, bears, whatnot.
Speaker C:So.
Speaker B:What is the advantage to the animal targets?
Speaker B:Are they two size?
Speaker B:Can you get like a turkey target?
Speaker B:Can you get a good pattern identity out of it?
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:So obviously with the highly visible hits, it's easy to identify patterns.
Speaker C:They're about half size to third size, depending on the animal.
Speaker C:I'm not going to make a full size grizzly bear, but we have the capability to.
Speaker B:It's just if you want a full size grizzly bear, get you and about a thousand of your friends.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And then contact him.
Speaker C:We do do custom work so we can make that happen.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:But it's, it's cool to be able to.
Speaker B:I've, I've used your targets.
Speaker B:I like the, the rubber self healing targets.
Speaker B:They're, they're fantastic on the range, especially when you're going out to the desert because it's so much easier than dragging that steel all the way out there.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:Especially when it gets to like a hundred in the day and then you got to grab the steel afterwards.
Speaker B:It may be a little hot.
Speaker B:Yeah.
Speaker B:Not gonna lie.
Speaker B:But grabbing your targets because they're rubber, because they're easy to use, you just grab them, throw them back in the, the car and go.
Speaker B:You guys focused about a year to two years of a lot of groundswell through YouTubers and that, you know, what was the, the marketing campaign behind using, I'd like to say affiliate programs.
Speaker B:What was the groundswell of that and why did you go that route instead of doing like the traditional route?
Speaker C:The traditional route in terms of like.
Speaker B:Like print ads and things like that.
Speaker C:Obviously we come from a strong social media background so I could see the power behind it.
Speaker C:Obviously as society changes, people are on the Internet a lot more than reading magazines or whatnot.
Speaker C:I think we've done maybe two print ads ever which were specifically for shot show or something.
Speaker C:But I myself, all my friends, always watching YouTubers, very familiar with that community, always grew up watching like Grantham administrative results, stuff like that.
Speaker C:And I was like, oh, I want to get my product in there.
Speaker C:And people were like, you should get your product in their hands.
Speaker C:So worked with a group to get all the YouTube influencers, but we also manage affiliates on our own.
Speaker C:So a lot of content creators will reach out and we'll send them product, get them set up with the affiliate program and they'll push out a bunch of content and stuff for us.
Speaker C:It's always worked really strong, especially since it's commission based too.
Speaker C:So it's not a lot of upfront money so as a small business, it's a good route to go.
Speaker C:Instead of putting $10,000 up to do a commercial somewhere, a billboard or whatever, and hoping that it's going to work out.
Speaker B:What's it like for you?
Speaker B:So I know my experience, but as a small business owner who watched a lot of YouTube content, what's it like for you now that they're now your friends and you get to talk to them all the time?
Speaker C:It's, it's pretty cool.
Speaker C:Like you said, like they're just friends now.
Speaker C:So like I talk to them all the time.
Speaker C:It's not like mind blowing, but like knowing how I was as a kid, like I would be very proud of myself today and like be like, oh, that's super cool.
Speaker C:And I still think it's super cool.
Speaker C:Like when our target show up in a grand thumb video and I have friends texting me about it, they're like, hey, we saw your stuff on this channel, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker C:Which is awesome.
Speaker C:And it's also awesome to get to work with like the newer creators that since I've seen the growth of a lot of these big creators, I'm like, oh, these kids are like doing really good.
Speaker C:They're gonna be like the next big thing.
Speaker C:I want to work with them.
Speaker C:I love watching their content.
Speaker C:Now.
Speaker C:A couple names to like throw out is like Desk Pop, Gorillas in the Mist are a couple I watch all the time.
Speaker C:But they just make really good content and they might not be the biggest channels, but I just love to support people my age that are kind of starting where I started and I can see the, the future in that.
Speaker C:So it's a cool spot to be in for sure.
Speaker A:So it's really like I'm going to stop and restart that thought.
Speaker A:I should never drink that much coffee.
Speaker A:So I love that you said that you, you kind of focus on the mainstays that have been in the industry for a while as well as the next generation that's coming up in the industry and people your own age.
Speaker A:Because I think oftentimes we want to pigeonhole ourselves into just what we know, just our own agent demographic or this has been a staple forever, but we always want to build that on ramp as a two way community.
Speaker A:And so I think that it's really cool that a large part of your marketing strategy is finding the next generation of, of people that are growing and growing with them as opposed to waiting until someone arrives and then try to work with them.
Speaker A:I think that's really awesome and will help the community grow.
Speaker A:As a whole?
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:And I think that's a unique aspect of my position, is that I still run all of our social media pages.
Speaker C:I do most of our content, editing, posting, whatnot.
Speaker C:So I'm always on those platforms.
Speaker C:So I kind of get to see a glimpse of things that maybe if we were a much larger company and I had someone working part time as a social media manager, I wouldn't see these accounts, I wouldn't be watching them or on the platforms as much.
Speaker C:So luckily with the position I am, I'm able to get a glimpse into that and stay active in the community, commenting, replying to people's comments.
Speaker C:Like I said earlier, like showing our true genuine selves.
Speaker C:Like we're a bunch of 25 year olds that go shooting twice a week and get to work in the industry and have fun and we get to show that to everybody.
Speaker C:We're not like a big conglomerate corporate structure that wants to be PC and, and it's just there for the profit whatnot.
Speaker C:We're actually out there having fun and we encourage people to come do the.
Speaker B:Same thing we are about at the halfway point.
Speaker B:So let's go ahead and go to our from the Soapbox segment.
Speaker B:This is where we get spicy.
Speaker B:This is where we talk our biggest gripes, biggest frustrations with the AT policy.
Speaker B:All the above.
Speaker B:So do you have a spicy take for us today?
Speaker C:I don't think it's super spicy.
Speaker C:I don't think the ATF should exist.
Speaker C:But nothing in specific.
Speaker C:I do.
Speaker C:We do have our FFL and sot.
Speaker C:So I.
Speaker C:There's a lot of things that I think are dumb and I hate and it's most things that the ATF comes out with.
Speaker C:Yeah, nothing in specific but.
Speaker A:So I have a question.
Speaker A:Has there ever been a time where you thought that your age was a disadvantage in the industry or have you kind of considered it an advantage in the industry?
Speaker C:I would say both as we, as I, as we grow and I learn different parts of obviously starting out, I thought it was a disadvantage.
Speaker C:I didn't think people would take me seriously when we started, I knew nothing about business.
Speaker C:It was kind of a learn as we go and trial and error type of thing.
Speaker C:So I thought that was a disadvantage.
Speaker C:And obviously I'm sure I've lost deals or weren't able to close deals because I don't have the right paperwork done or form set up.
Speaker C:But I think that was just a lack of knowledge, not necessarily my age.
Speaker C:And where it comes to an advantage, I think when it comes into the Play of social media and everything.
Speaker C:Because I was, I grew up around it, I knew how it works, was constantly on it.
Speaker C:So I think in that aspect it would be an advantage.
Speaker B:I think I've got one for you.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:How do you fight back with the.
Speaker B:With the traditional people who don't like your product, who think rubber targets may be dumb?
Speaker B:How do you fight that kind of pushback to sell, to beat the establishment of paper and steel to get into that market?
Speaker C:Yeah, I think there's people.
Speaker C:You're never going to change their minds.
Speaker C:They're set on their ways, but obviously the ones that are on the line, there's always a pain point somewhere.
Speaker C:Maybe they don't like the weight of steel targets or they hate going through paper targets or where they're at, it's windy and they hate chasing them in the wind.
Speaker C:It's always attacking those pain points.
Speaker C:If obviously you're not going to change someone's mind if they're set in their ways and they, I mean, if you don't have the money for infinity targets, I mean, hey, paper targets still work.
Speaker C:They've worked for years.
Speaker C:They're not going to stop working.
Speaker C:We just brought a better solution to the market.
Speaker C:But yeah, that's pretty much where I would go with that.
Speaker C:I did think of a gripe, an ATF gripe, definitely the brace band.
Speaker C:It makes no sense to me now.
Speaker C:Half the braces nowadays are rigid enough to be a stock and I really don't understand where the gray lines are in that.
Speaker C:And then just the fact that like receivers can be firearms.
Speaker C:So you can buy every single part to a firearm and have it shipped to your door, except, like one piece and then you can just go to the store and get it and then you can assemble it.
Speaker B:That's.
Speaker B:Yeah, we've never talked on that.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker B:I love that you brought up the pistol brace.
Speaker B:I think everybody in this room right now is in agreement that the pistol brace band was first off unconstitutional by a body that just decides when it wants to make rules.
Speaker B:Whenever.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:Somebody who passed it and then said no and then this and the.
Speaker B:All the in between.
Speaker B:Also at the same time, I think the pistol brace brand really, or the pistol bracelet market has really proved that the SBR laws are stupid.
Speaker B:Yeah, I mean, listen, we were.
Speaker B:I was just talking about this, this weekend with Stephen Williford, who everybody knows Stephen Williford, the laws.
Speaker B:He's like, yeah, I had a friend who built an AR pistol and got in trouble and I was like, well, what do you get in Trouble for well, it didn't meet the 26 overall inch length where it was, it was too long.
Speaker B:I was like, well yeah, that doesn't make sense because it's a pistol.
Speaker B:And then you trying to understand, you know, even I've had people who've come up to me and been like, I built this, this 14 5.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker B:And I'm like, cool, that's awesome.
Speaker B:And they're like, yeah, I'm all legal and blah blah, blah.
Speaker B:And then yeah, like yeah, you pinned it.
Speaker B:Well, it.
Speaker B:And they're like, what do you mean you pinned it?
Speaker B:It's, it's so asinine that because you know, a pin and weld makes it 2 more inches when 145 is a standard barrel length now.
Speaker B:Yeah, it shouldn't make it in S.
Speaker B:2 inches shouldn't make it.
Speaker B:An SB are 2 inches is this big.
Speaker B:It's not that big.
Speaker B:But just to think that for somebody like you and I and Kaylee who have been in this fight for so long and know that a 145 with a pin and muzzle brake makes it a legal firearm.
Speaker B:But think about the millions of Americans who just saw like 145 became hot 145 upper.
Speaker B:They're like, I want the shortest package I can get, which everybody wants.
Speaker B:You want a nice compact package.
Speaker B:Not understanding the laws, not understanding that.
Speaker B:And now potentially being felons without even knowing it.
Speaker B:Just like the pistol breakspan, the pistol brace ban.
Speaker B:The ATF made millions of firearms owners felons overnight.
Speaker B:The estimated number is 10 to what, 60 million.
Speaker B:It's a estimated because you know, it's, it's ridiculous.
Speaker B:And just like you said, I can order all the parts, I can have everything shipped to my door.
Speaker B:But the, the receiver.
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So if you build your own and you just order 14 5, because that's mainstream.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And if you follow the definition by the ATF, which they set with the receiver for an AR15, the lower receiver is not technically meet the definition of a receiver.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker B:And it's ridiculous that that's what they deem to be the serialized item.
Speaker B:I should be able to order everything to my house and have it there and built just like the founding fathers intended.
Speaker A:Yeah, I mean I think it's one of those things where you have a non elected bureaucracy that is bloated and rogue, making and defining things in a way that is often convoluted, very difficult to find and ultimately goes against a constitutionally protected right.
Speaker A:And the problem that I think most Americans have with members of Congress and with the ATF and with with the federal government in general, and often the state government is that they want to pretend that the Constitution is the government granting rights, but it is not government granting rights, it's government protecting rights.
Speaker A:And if you look at all of the great firearms manufacturers, all of the great thinkers that have created the firearms that we know and love, it all started by them building them at home, right?
Speaker A:They had to come up with the ideas, the designs.
Speaker A:And anytime that you're limiting that innovation, you're also hurting what growth we would see in the industry.
Speaker B:People like you, me and Elijah have been in this for so long, we understand the laws and everything.
Speaker B:We have so many new gun owners who may not understand it and get advice that they may not know or not know how to find the right thing.
Speaker B:And that education and outreach from companies like Infinity Defense and like GOA is what we need to do to help them to understand that.
Speaker B:Hey, because even when you talk to a new gun owner, and this is my favorite example, I had a last job I worked at, I had a girl who was in our office who was not a gun person, didn't know anything about guns.
Speaker B:So I was like, okay, I'm gonna explain this to you in the simplest way I can understand.
Speaker B:Here is a 16 inch broom.
Speaker B:It's a legal broom.
Speaker B:Now I'm gonna cut two inches off of it.
Speaker B:Now it's a 14 inch broom.
Speaker B:Now it's an illegal short barrel broom.
Speaker C:Unless you pay me $200.
Speaker B:Unless you pay me, now I have to pay 200 to have my short broom.
Speaker B:And she's like, that doesn't make any sense.
Speaker B:It's only like an inch and a half.
Speaker B:Like, yeah, but if I cut it down to like 12 inches and put a broom brace on the end of it, now it's a pistol broom.
Speaker B:And she's like, wait a minute, but you just said earlier that that was an illegal broom.
Speaker B:Oh, yeah.
Speaker B:Well, it gets even better.
Speaker B:Now I have my shotgun broom and that's an 18 inch shotgun broom.
Speaker B:But if I cut it down to under 18 inches, now it's an illegal shotgun broom and I've got to pay the government $200.
Speaker B:And.
Speaker B:But if I make it 26 overall inches and don't never put a stock on it and put a little grip on it, now it's a any other broom.
Speaker B:And she looks at me and she's like, these laws make no sense.
Speaker B:And from a person who doesn't understand the firearms, who's learning for them to go, what do you mean this makes no sense?
Speaker B:Spoke a lot to me, because that is what we're dealing with.
Speaker A:No, and here's the thing about that, right?
Speaker A:Understanding the law doesn't make the law just.
Speaker A:It also doesn't make the law rational or logical.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:Just because we know what the rules are doesn't mean that the rules shouldn't be changed.
Speaker A:And so it's incumbent upon us to explain how illogical those rules are and then provide them an avenue to engage with those laws, whether that's contacting their congressman, whether that's making a phone call to their elected representatives, or sending them an email saying, do you really know how illogical this law is?
Speaker A:Because that's the way that we get the law changed.
Speaker A:Right.
Speaker A:If we want to see the NFA abolished, which I think is one of the main goals that everyone sitting here has, that we want to see a restoration of the Second Amendment, it's going to take more than the knowledgeable gun owner to make their voices heard to get these illogical rules changed.
Speaker A:It's going to take everyday people from all walks of life and not just people within the gun industry in order to actually move the needle.
Speaker B:Well, you bring up a great point.
Speaker B:The thing that makes me laugh the most.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And we've talked about suppressors and, and you know how we want them off the NFA and all that stuff.
Speaker B:So they want, they don't want you to suppress your gun because it's loud, but they want you to put a suppressor on your car because it's too loud.
Speaker B:And that's called a muffler.
Speaker B:It just, hey, well, your gun's loud.
Speaker B:So we don't want, we want it to be loud, but your car's even louder.
Speaker A:My personal favorite is the governmental agencies can't agree.
Speaker A:Like OSHA has come out in support of suppressors and the ATF is like, no.
Speaker A:And it's like even within the, even within the government, people are like, yeah, that's really stupid.
Speaker A:Like, this just protects your hearing.
Speaker A:Like this is, this is, this is logical for us to have.
Speaker A:But.
Speaker B:Well, let's just talk about how the whole reason why the tax stamp is $200.
Speaker B: how much a Thompson costs in: Speaker B:32.
Speaker B:4.
Speaker B:34.
Speaker B:Two year gap there.
Speaker B:But yeah, it's ridiculous.
Speaker B:That again, that was $200 was a lot of money.
Speaker A:$200 is still a lot of money.
Speaker A:But here's, here's what is so frustrating about the tax stamp.
Speaker A:You shouldn't be taxing a constitutional right.
Speaker B:Bingo.
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker C:I think it's really Just some money grab for their department.
Speaker C:Why is it $200?
Speaker C:Like you said, it was the cost of a Thompson.
Speaker C:Now I doubt it takes $200 worth of manpower to go through the paperwork and get it filed.
Speaker C:I know it doesn't because it went from a nine month period to a three day period and it still costs the same amount of money.
Speaker A:It's a bill of rights, not a bill of needs, period.
Speaker A:And the Constitution is very clear about that.
Speaker A:The framers were very clear about that.
Speaker A:It took 27 words to write the Second Amendment, but how many thousands of words has it taken for all of the regulations and the bills that have passed and everything that has undone or attempted to undo what the second Amendment stands for?
Speaker A:And that's why we have our mission, why we at GOA have a mandate to protect, defend and restore the second Amendment is because of the massive overreach by the bureaucracy and from Congress and past administrations.
Speaker B:I love how you brought up the time period for suppressors and this is what makes me laugh.
Speaker B:Their excuse for the time being so long and now how it's shortened is, well, you know, when we got one that was really hard, we just stopped.
Speaker B:And now we figured out that we don't have to stop anymore.
Speaker B:We just put that to the side and start going through the rest of them to check them off.
Speaker B:I don't know about you, but if my boss who's sitting right next to me found out that I stopped for nine months to wait on an answer on one thing and just stopped working, I would be fired.
Speaker B:Can confirm.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:Well, it's just that I think we're all very aware of the amount of overreach and how bloated the bureaucracies are in the government in general.
Speaker A:I think we've made that statement very clear.
Speaker A:And I think that that's why you have such a push right now in this administration to go through all of the waste, fraud and abuse.
Speaker B:I just.
Speaker B:What logical human just goes, I'm stopping because this is hard.
Speaker A:And then probably more than you want.
Speaker C:To imagine.
Speaker B:But that's the gist of why they're justified such the long waiting period.
Speaker B:And that's ridiculous.
Speaker A:Yeah.
Speaker A:I mean, again, it goes back to the point where we as gun owners, it is incumbent upon us to take personal responsibility in defending the second Amendment so that when those things come up, and they will come up, and they will come up in every.
Speaker A:There has never been a perfect administration.
Speaker A:There will never be a perfect administration.
Speaker A:So we constantly have to stay vigilant.
Speaker A:I think that there's a very big problem that we could face potentially as gun owners, and that is to take a win and become apathetic.
Speaker A:You take a win and then you work hard to build upon the next win.
Speaker A:Apathy kills the momentum.
Speaker A:Right now, gun owners have momentum.
Speaker A:We have had momentum with new gun owners coming into the movement as we have built better on ramps for increasing the amount of gun owners by providing them education, by talking with them, by increasing the size of the Second Amendment community.
Speaker A:We have built momentum at the state level with Second Amendment preservation acts and constitutional carrying, and we are building momentum at the federal level, while as we continue to work on things like the Shush act and the Hearing Protection act and as we continue to file lawsuits and win lawsuits.
Speaker A:But if we just stop and say, hey, we had a good election, like, see you again in four years, well, what does that say about our side?
Speaker A:Right?
Speaker A:We can't afford to let our foot off of the gas.
Speaker A:We can't afford to take a break because we have had infringements.
Speaker A:I mean, the NFA and the Gun Control act, we're coming up on 100 years of tyranny, essentially.
Speaker A:And so we have a lot of work to do.
Speaker A:And so the biggest fear that I have is that people just go, okay, well, we're good for a little while.
Speaker A:Now is the time that we make the biggest strides in the restoration of the Second Amendment.
Speaker B:I think you're absolutely.
Speaker B:I don't think.
Speaker B:I know.
Speaker B:You're absolutely right.
Speaker B:And the big thing is, is now is the time to educate the new gun owners, the existing gun owners, the people who have been saying, you know, well, I'm good with this or I'm good with that.
Speaker B:Now it's time to educate them and go, hey, we want to make this stronger.
Speaker B:We want to make this.
Speaker B:You know, you should be able to get the guns that you want and to reach out even the smallest education, like.
Speaker B:Like the broom example, that small education can change somebody to go, okay, well, now what do I do?
Speaker B:How do I.
Speaker B:How do I get into this fight?
Speaker B:And the easiest way to get into the fight is to go to gun owners.org and sign up to be a member Shameless plug.
Speaker B:But also go there because we can.
Speaker B:You can search by your district, who your senator and congressman is, and write them a letter.
Speaker B:There's a form letter, Kaylee lexus, a text.
Speaker B:30 seconds to do it.
Speaker A:Yes.
Speaker A:I timed it multiple times.
Speaker B:30 seconds to go.
Speaker B:Reach out.
Speaker B:Be polite, but be the squeaky wheel.
Speaker A:I do want to go back to one thing that We've been talking a lot about and that is new gun owners.
Speaker A:And obviously as a target company, a lot of trainers use your product.
Speaker C:Yes.
Speaker A:And you know, they are training new gun owners and hopefully also seeing lots of longtime gun owners.
Speaker A:I'm a big advocate for training and training often have.
Speaker A:Have you guys seen that natural progression as more and more gun owners are coming into the fold?
Speaker A:Trainers looking for better targets, more visible targets and looking to kind of, I mean, over time the value that you save versus like cardboard, I would imagine has to make the trainers more profitable over time as well.
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:And I think another point to that is the time saving aspects.
Speaker C:For example, the Quantico PMO's office in Virginia or the USMC PMO office at Quantico, they started using our targets and now their range days they save about two to three hours of range day just from having to change out targets between shooters.
Speaker C:And when it comes to an instructor standpoint, that's a lot of time they could be with the students, teaching them, helping them, providing oversight, whatnot.
Speaker C:So they get a lot more value that way as well.
Speaker C:And so the students, plus I think with a lot of new gun owners, a lot of them aren't going straight to instructors to learn how to use a gun.
Speaker C:Usually they have a friend or they can go out to public land and kind of do it themselves or do it with a friend who might have a gun.
Speaker C:And obviously I personally, I don't think that's the way to go as a new gun owner, but a lot of people do do that.
Speaker C:So obviously the more fun we can make the range day, the more they're going to enjoy shooting, the less time they have to be chasing paper targets around and whatnot.
Speaker C:Having a valuable target that makes the range day a lot more efficient, more fun, less laborsome is going to improve the shooting experience for that new shooter.
Speaker C:And they might enjoy it more than they would with cheap paper targets and it might make them want to go out and shoot more and practice more and train more.
Speaker B:Elijah, thank you for joining us.
Speaker B:Go ahead and plug away.
Speaker B:Website, socials, all that stuff.
Speaker C:Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker C:Thanks for having me.
Speaker C:It was a great time being here.
Speaker C:You can find infinity [email protected] youm can find us on Instagram @infinitytargets, which I run.
Speaker C:So if you want to ask me questions directly, that's the way to do it.
Speaker C:Same on TikTok, YouTube, X trigger hill, all at Infinity targets or at Infinite Defense so you can always find us there.
Speaker B:Awesome.
Speaker B:Well, before we go.
Speaker B:I have this for you.
Speaker B:Palmetto State Armory and AAC have sponsored gifts for our guests for this season.
Speaker B:So you will be getting a gift from Palmetto State army and aac.
Speaker B:We want to thank them for that.
Speaker B:So get some awesome stuff from them.
Speaker B:They'll send that to you after the show's over.
Speaker C:Awesome.
Speaker C:I appreciate that.
Speaker C:Thank you.
Speaker B:No problem.
Speaker B:Well, thank you.
Speaker B:Thank Paul, Meadow.
Speaker C:They're my favorite.
Speaker B:Cameron.
Speaker B:Cameron.
Speaker B:Thank you guys.
Speaker B:Make sure to go fight for the second amendment.
Speaker B:Make sure to, like, share and subscribe.
Speaker B:Hit the little bell for notification.
Speaker B: And don't forget, Goals: Speaker B:You can see Elijah there and his awesome targets.
Speaker B:Come up and say Hi again.
Speaker B:That's August 9th and 10th in Knoxville, Tennessee.
Speaker B:We will see you in Knoxville and have a great rest of your day.
