CTO Wisdom with Mike Grushin | Beyond the Program

Welcome to CTO Wisdom. In this series, we interview technical leaders who have stepped into executive positions.

Today’s guest host, Eric Brooke, speaks with Mike Grushin, Co-founder and CTO at Next League.

About today’s guest: Formerly a founding partner of OMNIGON and Chief Product Officer at InfrontX, Mike is a co-founder and CTO at Next League. He leads the global Technology team, working with partners to analyze their challenges and opportunities while designing the technical solutions to achieve their business objectives. Mike has extensive experience in executive-level positions, including COO, where he oversaw company operations, and CTO, where he was responsible for developing and managing technology and product services. Mike played a critical role in the commercialization of InfrontX products and services.

In addition to his role at Next League, Mike is also a co-founder of ProFolios.ai, a SaaS Platform that empowers students and seasoned professionals to create “a professional presence that they are proud to share”. Mike and his wife are grateful parents to their 3 sons and live in Boca Raton, FL.

About today’s host: Eric Brooke has a rich and varied leadership career - leading up to 21,000 people and Billions in revenue, throughout 14 countries. In their career, they have been an Executive six times (e.g. President, CEO, CMO, and CTO) and a Board member of multiple organisations. Eric has been a CTO of scaling startups from 0 to 120 engineers. As an adviser and mentor, they have helped multiple other startups scale both in Canada and the US. As well as supporting multiple startup incubators such as 1871 in Chicago and TechStars.

Sign-Up for the Weekly hatchpad Newsletter: https://www.myhatchpad.com/newsletter/

Hey, listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program.

2

We've got exciting news introducing our

latest partner series Beyond the Program.

3

In these special episodes, we're

passing the mic to some of our savvy

4

former guests who are returning as

guest hosts, get ready for unfiltered

5

conversations, exclusive insights,

and unexpected twist as our alumni

6

pair up with their chosen guest.

7

Each guest host is a trailblazing

expert in a unique technical field.

8

Think data, product management,

and engineering, all with a keen

9

focus on startups and career growth.

10

Look out for these bonus episodes

dropping every other week,

11

bridging the gaps between our

traditional pair program episodes.

12

So buckle up and get ready to

venture Beyond the Program.

13

Enjoy.

14

Eric Brooke: Welcome to CTO Wisdom.

15

My name is Eric Brooke.

16

This series will talk to leaders

of technology at organizations.

17

We'll understand their career, what

was successful and what was not,

18

and what they learned along the way.

19

We'll also look at what the

tech market is doing today.

20

We'll understand where they gather

their intelligence so they can grow

21

and scale with their organizations.

22

Hey, Mike, how are you doing today?

23

Mike Grushin: Hi, Rick.

24

Thank you very much for having me.

25

I'm doing fantastic.

26

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

27

Could you give me your elevator

pitch about who you are?

28

Mike Grushin: Uh, the way that

I think about myself is like,

29

where do I bring the most value?

30

So with now 26 years of experience

around technology, And for the last

31

10 years or so being an executive

founder role, uh, probably the most

32

value I bring is by bridging that

space between technology and business.

33

So I'm pretty good at explaining

technology in a way that business people

34

understand it, and then understanding

enough about the business goals

35

and outcomes, because that's what

usually drives the technology, not

36

technology itself, and then explaining

those things to the technology team.

37

So they understand why they're

building something and what are the

38

outcomes we're looking to achieve.

39

Eric Brooke: Okay.

40

Awesome.

41

Could you tell me a bit about

your journey to technology?

42

Mike Grushin: Uh, certainly.

43

Uh, my family came to the United

States from Ukraine, uh, early 90s.

44

I was 16 years old.

45

So I still have a chance to

finish American high school

46

in Brooklyn, New York.

47

Uh, for those of you from that

part of, uh, part of New York City,

48

uh, they'll know the high school.

49

It's called Lincoln.

50

Uh, then I went to Stony Brook

University in Long Island.

51

And I went into that university as a

pre med and part of that, my journey

52

altogether was that my parents were

highly educated, but they were educated

53

in the Soviet Union and they did not know

much about capitalism or United States.

54

Or what the options were, and this is

before the modern internet, you didn't

55

have the YouTube university, so the

options were very limited, accountant,

56

engineer, lawyer, or a doctor, right?

57

So I went as a pre med, but then

I took computer science 101.

58

And I remember it was right around

Thanksgiving, we had to build our

59

first HTML page with Netscape 1.

60

0.

61

And I pretty much did not go

to sleep for over 48 hours.

62

Uh, marquees and all of the fun

things that you think back to 95.

63

Um, that's what I spent just

staying up and playing with it.

64

And that got me into computer science.

65

So I graduated with a computer

science information systems degree.

66

But I started working in

98 way before I graduated.

67

So I was doing night school while working

full time helping the immigrant family.

68

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

69

Tell us about your first job when you

got to being a developer and engineer.

70

Mike Grushin: Uh, so I wonder

how many of the younger people

71

even know what Java applets are.

72

So I started as a Java,

a junior Java engineer.

73

At that time, uh, Java applets were the

way to deliver software across platform.

74

And we were building the company

as I joined, we were building an e

75

learning platform, learning management

system, uh, at in 98, they started

76

a little bit earlier in 96, 97,

that was a cutting edge technology.

77

Uh, and I stayed with the company

for nine and a half years, right.

78

And you're rising through the ranks

to director of technology, CTO, having

79

multiple stops, obviously along the way.

80

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

81

So what was it like when

you first became a manager?

82

What were the things that either

held you back or helped you from

83

stepping from a software engineer

into that first manager role?

84

Mike Grushin: Uh, so it's a very

common pattern for companies

85

and the company was small.

86

So when I started, I

was employee number 12.

87

By the time I left, we

were about 65, 70 people.

88

It was acquired by a much larger

entity, but that was after I

89

left and I was just an employer.

90

I didn't have any

ownership in that company.

91

So in a small company, the

beautiful part is you learn a lot.

92

The more challenging part, there

is no established professional

93

growth, professional, um, education.

94

So you just learn, and if you're

fortunate to have great managers,

95

which I did, You learn from that.

96

And then if you do well enough, if

you're smart enough, usually what

97

happens, they ask you to manage

people without necessarily school or

98

within a professional environment,

teaching you how to manage people.

99

So it just worked out that the

two people that I was asked

100

to manage were my friends.

101

So somebody that I went to

college together, I brought them

102

in and I started managing them.

103

So we had a good, great

relationship outside the work.

104

And at one point, one of my

friends says, let's go to lunch.

105

I have to tell you something.

106

Thank you, Seth.

107

And then slightly different words.

108

I remember the words is here's

so like, you're not a very

109

nice person to work with.

110

We love you outside of work, but

at work, you're just too hard.

111

You like, everything's black and white.

112

Everything has to be your way.

113

So I remember that from early days.

114

And then the company also had this

wonderful executive coach to the

115

whole company, this person, Tom Daler.

116

I would like to acknowledge him.

117

He's still an important part of my

life, part of next week, the company

118

that I'm a co founder of right now.

119

Um, so I've been benefiting

from his, uh, knowledge and

120

mentorship since early 2000s.

121

So the company I worked for, the first

company, Elon company, they recognized

122

that There's potential on me, but I'm

not being nice to other team members.

123

They made him available

to me as a business coach.

124

And I remember learning the not so easy

thing for me, how to delegate, how to

125

manage up, how to manage your peers,

how to manage people that report to you.

126

And that was a journey.

127

And as part of that journey,

we would have weekly meetings.

128

And one of the agenda items on that

meeting, and I'm very happy to share this

129

because there are quite a few versions

of me in the world of technology.

130

So the agenda item was how can Mike

be less of an asshole at the time?

131

There was a slightly different ending

to it, but the content is the same.

132

And then over the years, we would joke

that Mike graduate from the, is he,

133

you know, how can he be less of that?

134

Um, and that was the process of me

learning the meaning of the word Empathy

135

and emotional intelligence between being

an immigrant and I didn't speak English

136

when I came to country when I was 16

and ending up in Brooklyn, New York, I

137

didn't really speak start speaking English

until 19 years old when I went to Stony

138

Brook because not familiar with Brighton

Beach, where the Russian community is

139

originated, you can think of Chinatown,

but the Russian speaking version of it.

140

So between not knowing that many

words in English altogether and.

141

There is a general stereotype.

142

If you have high IQ, doesn't matter

computers or doctor or whatnot,

143

the EQ is usually not that high.

144

The beautiful part is what I learned

over the years, is emotional intelligence

145

can relatively easily be taught.

146

That's what personal

development is all about.

147

That's what leadership coaching.

148

Um, that's what Tom Baylor has

been teaching me and my co workers

149

and colleagues over the years.

150

Eric Brooke: So that's great to hear

that journey in terms of learning about

151

emotional intelligence and empathy.

152

Are there any examples that

you caught in yourself?

153

Like your friend obviously gave you

some great advice and it's sometimes

154

tougher to work with our friends.

155

Um, then with necessary non friends,

were there any other specific things

156

that you can remember back from that

time that you changed in your behavior?

157

Mike Grushin: Uh, a few of them, so I can

just call out the ones that, uh, I remind

158

myself quite often and I remind others.

159

I should not be the smartest

person in the room, right?

160

The expression goes, if you're

the smartest person in the room,

161

you're in the wrong room, right?

162

So the idea is that I want

to be surrounded by people

163

who know more than me.

164

Smarter will know me that that's an

interesting conversation to have,

165

but if I know more than everybody

else within my team, that's a problem

166

because I become a bottleneck.

167

I also think about my leadership style.

168

What I aim to do is servant leader.

169

So my job is to unblock any blockers

and to serve my team so that they

170

can work and deliver whatever

the project we're working on.

171

I also learned, which is not easy.

172

Is to speak last in the meetings and

that allows people that report to you

173

feel comfortable to share and then

you mean, like, as a leader, I benefit

174

from everyone's ideas before I speak,

because if I speak, that will prevent

175

others to raise ideas, because the

manager, the boss spoke, there's nothing

176

else I should be adding to, right?

177

Maybe there's this dynamic, um, the other,

the other aspect or the other lesson is,

178

um, I am looking for people that report

to me and I'm the same thing that, uh,

179

to my partners, uh, business partners

within the business, I'm not looking

180

to come with a problem, I'm looking to

come with a problem statement, a couple

181

of options of how it can be solved,

and then the recommendation, right?

182

So there's a pretty, uh, common, well

known, like the standard, like one, three,

183

one, like, what is the problem statement?

184

What are the three options you

consider of how to solve it?

185

And what is your recommendation?

186

And now the person who

brings that to me is.

187

They're not just looking

to me to solve it.

188

They already went through the

process of thinking through.

189

And if they're good at their job, they

probably will not even come to me.

190

Because they was like, Oh, there's no

reason to come to, uh, to bring this up.

191

Unless it's something big or

financial or technology challenging.

192

Um, so those are probably the

top recommendations I would make.

193

Eric Brooke: Thank you very

much for sharing those insights.

194

Okay, so continuing your career journey,

um, when did you start managing managers?

195

Mike Grushin: Probably when we started

the professional services company.

196

So the journey was that

junior Java developer, then

197

started to manage developers.

198

Within, within that, uh, journey

within that first company, I started

199

to manage, uh, so there's like back end

developers and then front end developers

200

and, well, desktop app at the time.

201

So like I would manage those

people and then manage others.

202

So I had a little bit of

experience, but it was early on.

203

It's when we started, uh, so the

current company I, I, I work for,

204

uh, co founded is called NextLeap.

205

So we work like we're

a set of technologies.

206

Designers, product managers that

deliver strategy, consulting,

207

build and maintenance.

208

Of complex technology solutions,

specifically in the sports industry.

209

So if you, if anybody is a sports fan

of NASCAR or PGA tour or USGA, um,

210

Chelsea football club, so like the

first couple of names we currently

211

serve them, like we're partners with

them, we deliver software for them,

212

and then there's plenty of other.

213

Well recognized names that we served

214

but the way it started is it was four

friends that decided, okay, we're somewhat

215

tired and we want something new to do.

216

Let's start this and it

wasn't focused on sports.

217

We kind of evolved into that.

218

In the beginning, I was a developer,

and then I had to learn how to be

219

client facing person, right, which I

was not as much within the product world

220

because there was a commercial team.

221

I was in a sales engineering

role quite often, but not working

222

directly with clients on delivering,

um, just by myself solutions.

223

And then as we grew, so we went from four

people to 20 to 40, like we had a pretty

224

decent growth, even though we started in

225

the financial crisis, but because we

ended up in sports, like sports does

226

okay, no matter what situation is with

financial situations happening in the

227

world, and then it was, as we started

to grow, I continued to focus on the

228

solution architecture and tech leadership.

229

I had amazing partners.

230

Um, that handled the, all of the

business side, the commercial,

231

the account management.

232

Then as we grew, there was a need for

me to start interfacing with clients.

233

And that's meant that I had to start

overseeing project managers and

234

tech leads and solution architects.

235

I would say probably in the last

12 years or so, 10 to 12 years.

236

Eric Brooke: And through that transition,

what are the things, just very much like

237

in your earlier journey, you had some

transitional points or things to change

238

in your behavior or things to evolve?

239

Do you remember what those kind of things

were as you were managing other managers?

240

Mike Grushin: I do.

241

At one point, my team, so this is

the time that I was still coding.

242

Um, I like to call it like

it's a, it's very rewarding.

243

We can talk about that.

244

Well, why is it rewarding?

245

What do I enjoy about it?

246

Because a lot of people that code, they

like, um, at one point I, I, I sensed it.

247

And my team told me that

I became a bottleneck.

248

So I would take on certain tasks that

I thought I would do a better job with

249

because I could talk to the client.

250

I would understand what they want

and then go and then just do it

251

without having to create a ticket

and requirements and everything else.

252

But I started to run out

of time during the day.

253

Right?

254

I think that speaks to your

question about what does that mean?

255

It started to fall into.

256

Maybe I didn't even know that word.

257

The servant leadership.

258

I recognize that my job

is to enable my team.

259

Right.

260

The words that I also learned

at the time is leverage.

261

Like, my job is to find leverage,

how to multiply my time by

262

using our amazing teammates to

focus on what they're good at.

263

So we had an amazing project

manager, product manager, back

264

end, front end developers.

265

So where I best served is

by talking to customers.

266

I had to learn how to do that as

well, hear them active listening

267

documented in such a way that our

technical team can take it and run

268

with it and then make sure that it

actually works the way it's expected.

269

So, this, uh, the answer to your

question is I had to learn how

270

to start on this path of servant

leadership versus just doing things.

271

And that was a pretty long journey

of being comfortable with delegation.

272

And I still remember this lesson

probably for, from 20 years ago.

273

Yes, it's not going to be as good as

you make it, but this is good enough.

274

And that's not an easy thing for us

technology people to be okay with.

275

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

276

Thank you for sharing that.

277

So, um, one of the things you've talked

a lot about is you've also been a

278

founder several times in your career.

279

Um, when you think back about

the difference between like an

280

employee and a founder, what are

the things that come to mind?

281

Mike Grushin: Um, a lot

of people look at Elon

282

Musk or Mark Zuckerberg.

283

And I think about like that's an

entrepreneur, that's a very specific

284

type of person that is able to

do what they do for most other

285

entrepreneurs that I know, and I've

met it's a bit of a roller coaster.

286

Yes.

287

It's exciting.

288

Um, it's also exciting to have a

child, which is very difficult.

289

So having a company where not only let's

say if you have one child, then that child

290

relies on you to provide food and shelter.

291

When you start a company and you ask

people to trust you to join you on

292

this potentially amazing journey.

293

But if you, if people study

the statistics, startups.

294

Not only 9 out of 10 don't make it, it's

like 97 out of 100 don't make it, right?

295

Most companies don't make it to 7 years.

296

There's like something like less than,

I think, 4 percent make it to 10 years,

297

if I remember the statistic right.

298

It's definitely less than 10%, and I

think 4 percent that make it to 10 years.

299

And I didn't know these things, right?

300

And then there's, there's a

beauty in not knowing because

301

then you just do the work, right?

302

Running with your head down.

303

So that's kind of like, so I did

not know, I didn't understand

304

much about the business when we

started the previous version.

305

I'm, I'm very fortunate that two

of my partners in that business,

306

they were savvy businessmen.

307

And they were able to figure out finances

and margin, and I had to learn how

308

professional services companies work.

309

So we, when we, when I was told by

people who are not more knowledgeable

310

than us, that it's pretty amazing what

we're building, like in the beginning,

311

it felt like, why are you saying this?

312

We're just doing good work.

313

It's only then I realized how

unique of a situation it is.

314

So entrepreneurship is super hard.

315

So the people, you know, my, my, my,

my partners that I work with, I've now

316

worked with them, like from 2008, right?

317

One of them I worked with even before

and most marriages don't last as long.

318

Most relationships don't last as long,

and we decided to start another company.

319

So that just also tells you how

unique that relationship, that

320

partnership, um, and at the

core of it is all relationships.

321

And that's where emotional intelligence

continues to play an important part,

322

where Like, like any relationship with

your children, with your significant

323

other, you as business partners will

go through some difficult times, and

324

you have to find your way through it

without being unpleasant to each other.

325

Eric Brooke: So I guess in some

ways you get very good at conflict

326

resolution, conflict management.

327

Mike Grushin: You have to, um, and

in many cases, what you want to do is

328

actually a conflict prevention by Over

communicating by not holding on to some

329

bad feelings, just talk about them, right?

330

And in most cases, because we also now

have a history of the relationship that

331

we have, we know that we went through

battlefields, like, to make sure that

332

we, you know, save each other and survive

in this, in this difficult journey.

333

So there is no, I don't think there's

any topic that we can't discuss.

334

Eric Brooke: It's

335

Mike Grushin: great.

336

And then that confidence and that

relationship, people feel it.

337

Right.

338

And we were very fortunate that this new

version next week, we're about 100 people

339

now, probably 75 to 80 percent of these

people came from the previous company.

340

Like there was a couple

of interesting situations.

341

Why, why it worked out this way.

342

Um, and we're super grateful.

343

That all of these folks

decided to trust us once again.

344

And we also acknowledge ourselves for

building the culture and do all the

345

right things that these people decided,

like, you know, some of them became

346

good friends over the years, right?

347

Some of them have been

with us for 16 years.

348

I'm on 10 plus.

349

Um, so that's the relationship,

conflict resolution, conflict avoidance,

350

um, expectation management, right?

351

Being transparent and team.

352

This is hard, but we've done this before

together, and every one of you can impact

353

the product that we provide, and the

reason why our partners, we don't call

354

them customers or clients, we try to

call them partners, there's a specific

355

meaning for it, but the reason why

they stay with us for 6, 10, 12 years.

356

Is because we are easy and nice to work

with and we produce amazing output in

357

a very challenging technology landscape

because of the number of devices,

358

the number of different connectivity.

359

So there are a lot of complexity

and we make it easy for them.

360

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

361

So you're a CTO now.

362

When you reflect on your role as a CTO,

how is that different to the other roles?

363

What are the things that you're often

thinking about, um, for your team?

364

Mike Grushin: And for your listeners,

I would also answer it in a, like, not

365

just like within my experience, like

when I, when you think about CTO or

366

chief technology officer, there's a

chief technology officer for Chase Bank.

367

There's a chief technology officer

for a startup of four people, right?

368

So that definition will mean

different things are different.

369

Points, even if my work, so let's say

we decide that in a couple of years,

370

we want to do something else, like I'll

be a CTO, but I'll probably be, I will

371

have to figure out how to be hands on.

372

Um, so today in my,

373

when I would engage with customers,

my role is a solution architect.

374

So, as a solution architect

within professional services,

375

the job of a solution architect

to be business technologist.

376

So I understand a lot

about technology out there.

377

Some of us are more hands on than others.

378

Some still write code as

much as I would like to.

379

I don't.

380

And within that role, that's

what solution architects do.

381

Like bring together, find the best

and easiest way to achieve most of the

382

functionality the customers want, right?

383

So one of the compliments that one

of our clients gave us over the years

384

that we as a team, we find a way to

deliver 90 percent of functionality

385

for 50 percent of the cost.

386

Yeah.

387

So that's a pretty, uh, um, you

know, good compliment to live up to.

388

So your question about like, what, what's,

uh, what's different in my CTO path.

389

So like I was a CTO when we were

40 people and I was hands on

390

developing and executing projects.

391

And then when we were able to grow

and hire more people, my role is.

392

Then and now merge, uh, migrated

more into, are we implementing

393

best practices across all projects?

394

So if we learn something on

project A, how do we configure

395

CDN in the best possible way?

396

That knowledge should not just be in

that particular project and the team.

397

It has to be well documented and

everything has to be get educated.

398

So I don't, uh, became more of the

best practices, education, uh, hiring

399

practices, um, and then if there is a

complex project, making sure that I'm

400

plugged in and whatever knowledge I

have that I can benefit and then also

401

making sure that our, so delivering

in the world of sports is pretty

402

different from other things that I know.

403

So we as technologies, we've

been around for 20 plus years.

404

Um, we kind of went away from waterfall

or like that was a journey from going

405

from waterfall delivery to agile.

406

So there's always the next sprint.

407

That is not true in sports entertainment.

408

Like Oscars happens when Oscar

happens and assets, you know,

409

Superbowl Daytona 500, whatever it

is early on, we had to learn how to

410

deliver against days that don't move.

411

And it's not a very common reality

for most software developers.

412

Like I said, it wasn't common for me

because by that time, learning from

413

Amazon and, um, uh, Netflix, you just

kind of went into this agile, uh,

414

continuous delivery model that is not

the case with our types of clients.

415

So we, as, as CTO, I, we had to

create processes to make sure that

416

we don't overpromise from technology

perspective and that we deliver on

417

time something that will work at

the scale that our clients expect.

418

Eric Brooke: So you've become

professionals in establishing

419

an MVP to a deadline.

420

Is that a way of thinking about it?

421

Mike Grushin: Um, the short answer

is yes, but now we can get into an

422

interesting debate and conversation

that, um, in my view, the word

423

that the acronym MVP now means

different things to different people.

424

So I remember, I forget if it

was LinkedIn founder or somebody

425

else smart that said that.

426

If you are not embarrassed by what

you ship, you're shipping too late.

427

I don't think that that's the

world that we live in anymore.

428

I think it has to be full

feature and especially for our

429

customers, it cannot be MVP, right?

430

If we are taking an existing platform,

like think about any major league,

431

think about like any, Uh, team, we

can't release it without a leaderboard.

432

We can't release it without some

amazing integration of video

433

highlights into the video player,

because that's what the fans expect.

434

And that's what's expected of us

because that's what we're good at.

435

Eric Brooke: So could

you give some examples?

436

Cause you're absolutely like a

large number of companies use

437

agile in a continuous loop.

438

With some deadlines, usually for

contracts or big partnerships, they

439

will probably have something there.

440

But the vast majority of the work

isn't what are the things that

441

you've learned from establishing

having a deadline if you like

442

Mike Grushin: the way that I

probably would explain for those

443

for the audience members that don't

don't know this world as well.

444

Um, I had to learn this that

most of the world is divided into

445

companies that ship products.

446

And the other part of the world

is our companies and individuals

447

that provide professional services.

448

So anybody, if somebody comes in to fix

your fridge, to software development, like

449

that's the world of professional service.

450

And within professional services, the

more complex something is, like building

451

a house, or building, um, a completely

new, brand new digital experience.

452

We've been, we as a society, we've

been building homes and houses and

453

apartment building and, and the cities

for 10, 000 years or so, and you

454

would think we would be good at it.

455

But if you talk to anybody who's

built a home or who's gone through

456

a major innovation, deadlines

are never met or very rarely met

457

and usually over budget, right?

458

So we had to figure

out how not to do that.

459

And.

460

That is a very complex formula.

461

It's an art based on

scientific approach to it.

462

So within that delivery of the

project, we have a next week project

463

life cycle that we've developed.

464

And we educate everyone who joins us,

you know, or we remind ourselves when we.

465

Build a proposal within the proposal.

466

We will be specific on what we expect that

will be included and what will not be or

467

if the client wants us to integrate the

third party that we're not familiar with.

468

We're saying we don't know we're

going to allocate this many hours.

469

And if it goes bigger, like if

it takes more energy and more

470

time, we'll have to talk about it.

471

So that's the expectation management,

which is also to me falls into the

472

emotional intelligence empathy.

473

Nobody wants to be surprised at the

end, like, Oh, we just, we didn't know.

474

And now we're late on a deadline.

475

So for us, it starts from the

proposal that includes estimations.

476

So based on our now 16 years, what's

called 15 years of experience, we

477

approximately know how many front end

developers, mobile developers, back end

478

developers, CMS developers we need in

order to launch a digital experience

479

of different type of complexity.

480

And we are very transparent with

our clients when we are providing

481

this, we're telling them this

is what our expectation is.

482

And if two months before launch, you

have a big partner come in and expect

483

something else, which always happens.

484

We are not accounting for that.

485

We will have, we will do our best to

address your business need, because

486

that's what we're in business of solving

business problems and delivering guest

487

outcomes, but we just don't expect

that today because we don't know.

488

So we figured out and we're pretty

successful at of delivering guests those

489

dates by having a very strict process.

490

Of even when we are doing designs early

on, like it's so easy, like if the project

491

has to be delivered nine months later,

it's so easy to spend way too much time

492

on the homepage design and requirements

forgetting that there is now also data

493

integration and video integration and

27 partners that need to pull the date.

494

So we have to be strict saying we need

to be done with this in this time frame

495

in order for everything else to work.

496

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

497

So I heard in some ways you time

box things to give like using the

498

experience of your team and your

company, that you've built a number of

499

things learned from that experience.

500

And also you avoid, um, scope creep, um,

from adding things or negotiate it as

501

per needed in the time of the business.

502

Mike Grushin: We do our best, right?

503

So the other thing that I mentioned

is our clients like working with us.

504

So if you're too straight saying, like,

you can't do this, or we're going to

505

charge you to do a change order, then

that's not a, it doesn't provide for

506

the relationship that we have now.

507

But it's, uh, it's the job of

a project manager and account

508

manager to make sure that these

things happen, because otherwise.

509

Yeah.

510

It's much better to push back somewhere

in the middle of the project than to

511

deliver bad news at the end that we're

not launching before a big event.

512

Eric Brooke: Absolutely.

513

Okay.

514

Thank you for that.

515

So when you think about success, what

does success look like for you and

516

what has helped you Be successful.

517

Mike Grushin: So I do think about

the word success quite a bit.

518

Um, like generally, I think that

every single word matters and I

519

choosing the right words and pausing

and thinking, like, is a good idea.

520

So when you ask success, like,

in my personal life, in my

521

professional life and combined.

522

Eric Brooke: I think they're

interrelated, personally, as I'm sure

523

you do by actually asking that question.

524

I was erring more to the career,

but I think, um, so if we focus

525

on that, but like, if there are

aspects from your personal life that

526

you think are intrinsic with that,

then feel free to talk about it.

527

Mike Grushin: So for me, what's,

what's very important is.

528

The relationships that I have,

and that is with my family, with

529

my colleagues, partners, friends,

clients, business partners, um,

530

Because that's what makes you successful

personally and professionally, right?

531

We are social animals, like,

that's the part of evolution.

532

You can't take it away from us.

533

We like being together and learning

how to be good in groups with others

534

is a very important part, right?

535

So, The success to me, like a big part

of it is learning that about emotional

536

intelligence and empathy and how to,

um, like the basics of psychology,

537

understanding why you feel a certain

way when you have an emotion and how

538

to deal with it and then understanding

that helps you understand others.

539

The other part, I love the ability to

combine my professional cues and my

540

personal, and I know a lot of people

will think about the work life balance.

541

And to me, the work life balance,

the image that comes up is somebody

542

walking a tightrope across two

mountains with a long fall, and

543

there's very little movement, right?

544

Like you want to stay

as still as possible.

545

That is not the reality of anybody's life.

546

My wife and I were very fortunate.

547

We have three active boys, and sometimes

there's a game in the afternoon.

548

Sometimes one of them gets sick.

549

Sometimes we'll go on vacation.

550

And I think about it if I get where I

picked up this analogy, I think about

551

juggling and the reason why juggling

works for me as an analogy is because if

552

I have a big delivery for the client or

there are some conferences or whatever

553

sales meetings, I will go and I will

not see my family for a week or longer.

554

And that means that I'm prioritizing,

I'm juggling my work, um, you

555

know, juggling balls more so.

556

And I'm actually letting some of my

home juggling balls fall to the ground.

557

And it's okay to do it once in a while.

558

But if you start dropping balls

too often, they'll start breaking.

559

So it's finding that, uh, right,

uh, Jungling balance, right?

560

So there's also a balance there that

allows you to do both without causing

561

too much damage to each part, right?

562

If there is a, if I were to not

participate in happy hours or team

563

building activities, and then, you

know, only spend time with family

564

outside of work, then I'm also damaging

my professional relationships or not.

565

They sell damage.

566

I'm not doing justice.

567

Like as a leader, as a co founder, so

to me, the success is a combination

568

of all these complex things

while also continuously learning.

569

So there's an acronym, KEMI, continuous

and never ending improvement.

570

So I look at myself as a, uh, a very

curious, never stopping learner.

571

Eric Brooke: How do you learn?

572

What are your preferred

learning approaches?

573

Mike Grushin: It's a combination of

consuming content, so from YouTube

574

videos, like Friedman or whoever, Joe

Rogan, like any type of like eclectic

575

content, uh, as you know like that.

576

Um, I do value going to conferences,

so I'm actually, I'll be heading out

577

to NVIDIA AI conference on Saturday.

578

Um, And it's been a while since I've done

a professional conference because like

579

we started next week two years ago and

as you start a company, it's very busy.

580

But the way I look at these conferences

that I know that I will, it's very rare

581

that I don't take away three to five

really impressive interesting things.

582

And for me, my time, which is also,

uh, an expensive commodity, given the

583

family life and work life and the money

that we're going to spend going, I mean,

584

going to conference is well worth it.

585

Usually in most cases, because then

I'll bring something to my team.

586

I will educate them on whatever I learned.

587

I'll make some connections.

588

I'll find some product.

589

That's been my historical

kind of experience so far.

590

Right.

591

Like I, and this is Nvidia.

592

It's will not be bad.

593

Yeah.

594

Um, and then having.

595

Interesting conversation, just like

this, right, with people that come

596

from completely different backgrounds,

technology, and not even technology.

597

I think it's a different backgrounds

and technology, but also people

598

that don't come from technology.

599

So, being from the fact that

I was born and until 16 years

600

old, I was in the Soviet Union.

601

I live in the Soviet Union.

602

Soviet Union was an atheist country.

603

Like, you know, religion was not a thing.

604

So learning about spirituality,

being open to it, that came

605

in my late 30s or early 40s.

606

And that also contributes

to that overall success.

607

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

608

Um, thank you for sharing that.

609

What is a problem that you're trying

to figure out at the moment as a CTO?

610

Mike Grushin: I don't think that

this will be, the answer will be

611

very surprising to you anywhere else.

612

What does AI, the way that we

understand it today, or what it will

613

be in the next two, three, five years,

what does it mean for our business?

614

What does it mean for our clients?

615

What does it mean for sport?

616

Because we need to understand that.

617

What does it mean for my kids?

618

What does it mean for education?

619

Uh, what about jobs?

620

Like what does it mean for my job?

621

Right?

622

So the immediate problems, uh, or the

immediate things that I'm working on is,

623

okay, this is part of what we do today.

624

Yes.

625

The way we discuss this within the

company, there are a couple of interesting

626

things that happened from the technology

perspective in the last 25 years, right?

627

The Internet, the Web 1.

628

0, then I would probably point to

Amazon Web Services, like as another,

629

not evolutionary improvement,

but revolutionary improvement.

630

And then it was iPhone and 4G, right?

631

And I'm specifically putting

them together because.

632

iPhone by itself without 4G would not

be successful, you know, video delivery

633

and content delivery, uh, on the go.

634

And then blockchain was supposed

to be that, but I don't see it the

635

same, like the revolution, it was,

uh, from the outside of decentralized

636

finance, which I don't know much about.

637

Uh, for, uh, for us in our

world, I will look at blockchain

638

as a specialized database.

639

AI is certainly feels like a revolutionary

thing, but today it's, uh, the way we

640

think about it, it's a productivity tool.

641

How can I be faster and more

efficient in getting to the business

642

outcomes that our clients want?

643

How can we be.

644

Um, better at marketing and sales in

order to generate more, um, revenue

645

and profit for us because we are

also, we care about philanthropy.

646

So we have a relationship as nicely

the relationship with a couple

647

of entities, the United States

Olympic and Paralympic committee.

648

We now have a contract with them

for the next couple of years.

649

And we've committed half a million

dollars to, from, you know, from what,

650

you know, from our side to the athletes.

651

That's where I found out a large

percentage of them lives on the power

652

to the United States Olympic level.

653

Athletes don't do well.

654

So this money is going to help them.

655

And then we're doing the same with others.

656

So this, the opportunity of AI is for us

to be more profitable, which will allow

657

us and I'll quote my very good friend and

business partner, our CEO, Dave Nugent.

658

Profit is where the fun is and fun doesn't

mean boats and just like celebrations,

659

which is an important part to come

together, but it's also giving back.

660

Right.

661

And that's another variable

in how I think about success.

662

Like, are you giving back?

663

Are you making a world a better place?

664

Eric Brooke: Okay.

665

Um, when you think ahead for sports

and where we've got to with this

666

version of AI, do you have any thoughts

about what you think may happen?

667

Mike Grushin: So a lot of thoughts

come to mind to your question.

668

So from the video production

side, like a sports production,

669

um, they're already companies.

670

So one of the famous one is WSC that is

using, like it used to have algorithmic

671

creation of highlights from a full,

let's call it a football soccer match.

672

So from 90 minutes, Even a number

of years ago, it was able to create

673

highlights across the overall game,

or highlights for a specific player.

674

And it was a combination of, I remember

discussing with our engineers, it was a

675

combination of just pure data processing,

so they know that there is a red card.

676

So they knew that five seconds

before and five seconds after, like

677

there was something interesting

happening, let's clip that.

678

They, they listened to the audio stream.

679

If there are fans going crazy, there's

something interesting happening

680

and then starting to apply machine

learning models, AI models, like,

681

I don't know what's underneath.

682

So that becomes, um, you

know, very interesting.

683

So, you know, some of our partners,

PGA Tour, USGA, every event that

684

they run, it's 150 plus players

that start and then over the 4

685

days, obviously a winner emerges.

686

If you're not in the top 15, 20 players,

you're probably not going to be on TV.

687

But if I care about the player from my

hometown, now with this technology, there

688

is a separate feed just for that player.

689

So now more players get the visibility.

690

So like this has been happening before.

691

That's not, not anything new.

692

Um, you know, in the world that

we're thinking about and where we're

693

helping our customers think through,

like, what does it mean for them?

694

Leagues and in Europe, teams have been

making money by selling their intellectual

695

property, like licensing their

intellectual property, which was video.

696

What does AI mean for

them in terms of data?

697

They are the ones that own the data.

698

Nobody else has as much depth.

699

And history, what does AI, uh,

how can AI help monetize that?

700

Um, and the interesting part

in today's version of AI, the

701

scientists are saying that there

is today's implementation of LLM.

702

It's not that simple.

703

It's not that easy to make sure

that it doesn't hallucinate.

704

So the, our partners,

they have to think about.

705

Making and make sure that whatever

the answer that is provided by

706

whatever LLM, whatever AI technology

they implement has to be accurate.

707

I don't know if you've heard about

the Air Canada chatbot incident.

708

So for those that are not as

familiar, so there was not, not

709

a very unfortunate situation.

710

This gentleman through chatbot

interacts with Air Canada, and he

711

explains that he has a death in the

family, and he has to urgently change

712

his ticket or book some ticket.

713

And if there's Air Canada provides

anything, um, like any assistance.

714

And the chatbot, which was AI powered,

says, oh yeah, buy the ticket,

715

then contact support and we'll

refund you or give you a discount.

716

Okay, he does what he's told by this

chatbot, he contacts support and

717

support says, that's not our policy.

718

And then he sues the

company, sues Air Canada.

719

And the court said, okay, chatbot

was representing Air Canada.

720

And that means that whatever

it says has to be upheld.

721

So we're coming to this interesting

world of legality, intellectual

722

property, voice, um, video,

deepfakes, it's, it's interesting.

723

Eric Brooke: It is indeed.

724

Thank you, Mike.

725

Um, so my last question for

you is what do you do for fun?

726

Mike Grushin: Uh, going back

to the topic of relationships.

727

I love spending time with people I know

well, or with people that I'm learning.

728

About and I'm building a relationship

with I am genuinely a very curious person,

729

so I try to find interesting aspects of

anything that I interact with like that.

730

That means like meeting new people,

finding out about their history,

731

um, to playing with gadgets.

732

Like I'm a technology person, right?

733

And a gadget means some type of a

tool or a physical gadget, right?

734

Microphones, video cameras,

podcasting equipment.

735

Um, and then the other part is spending

time with my family and friends.

736

And my boys are now 16, 14 and nine.

737

So we're out of the

diapers and right there.

738

So, you know, they take care of themselves

and now we have interesting conversations.

739

We built STEM toys, we

built, uh, um, Lego.

740

So there's a, uh, Concord that

we built with my nine year old.

741

Um, all of it.

742

I very much enjoyed it.

743

Eric Brooke: Awesome.

744

Mike, thank you very much for sharing your

experience, wisdom, and insights today.

745

Really appreciate your time.

746

Thank you.

747

Mike Grushin: All right.

748

Thank you very much for having me.

749

It was a lot of fun.

750

Tim Winkler: Calling all

startup technologists.

751

podcast, but don't know where to start?

752

Well, here's your chance to shine.

753

We're thrilled to introduce Beyond

the Program, our exclusive mini

754

series, and we want you to be a part

of it as tech leaders and mentors.

755

You'll get the exclusive opportunity

to become a guest host right

756

here on The Pair Program podcast.

757

Share your expertise, insights,

and stories with our audience of

758

startup focused technologist excited.

759

We knew you would be to be

considered head over to my hatchpad.

760

com backslash contribute, fill out

a brief form and submit it our way.

761

Let's co create something

amazing together.

762

Don't miss this chance to elevate your

voice and expand your personal brand.

763

Visit my hatchpad.

764

com backslash contribute.