Democratizing 3d Content with Fovea

Randall Stevens: 00:00:00

Welcome Corey to the Confluence podcast.

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Uh, I've been looking forward to this one.

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Kind of near and dear to my heart,

Corey and I have known each other

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for a long time and, uh, have a

longstanding professional relationship.

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And, uh, when he's in town visiting,

he stays with me at my house.

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So it's, we're we're, we've been good

buddies for a long time, but, um, yeah.

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Today, uh, we're looking forward Corey

to, uh, learning about your work.

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on this fovea application and its

development and how this all came about.

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Just as a, um, for the audience,

there's been a lot of close work that

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ArchVision the company that Corey, uh,

runs, has been working closely with

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Avail, we call 'em sister companies.

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Uh, and, and we've been doing a lot of

integration of, of what Corey's gonna show

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you directly into the avail application.

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So, uh, Corey, maybe you can just

give everybody a uh, uh, kind of

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an intro to what Fovea is about.

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Corey Rubadue: Thanks for ha

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having me on, Randall.

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I appreciate it and I always

enjoyed talking with you guys, um,

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about everything we're doing here.

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Um, and Evan, good to

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see you Um, yeah, so Fovea, as of today

is a 3D model configuration platform

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that's part of our ARC vision ecosystem.

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And, uh, we, uh, can basically bring

in 3D models and data sets, scan, scan

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data, um, from outside sources into.

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Uh, the fovea application and publish

those assets back out into, various

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file formats, uh, for consumption

in many different 3D applications.

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Revit being our, our key SketchUp,

rhino Blender, handful of applications.

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Um, and it's, uh, the tool really designed

around, uh, democratizing 3D content

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and, uh, assets and helping people to

build or firms to build their asset

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libraries up in a big holistic, uh, way.

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Uh, so yeah, I mean that's a, that's

the, the nutshell about fovea.

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Um, I can say that, uh, when we started

this effort, we had really no plans to

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build exactly what we were building.

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Um, but, uh, it, it

evolved and, and based on.

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Customer needs, customer requests.

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And uh, also just really, uh, feeding

off from the technological relationship

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between, uh, arc vision and avail and

trying to integrate in, uh, different

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pieces of our technology with a avail

to make just really great customer

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experiences around content, content

creation and content management.

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All, um, in one, from one very

singular and holistic place, if you

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will.

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Randall Stevens: I think, um, you

know, with what I know, uh, uh, kind

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of insight into the fovea app, the,

uh, the thing that seems, you know,

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mo most, most of the time when you

would, uh, want to take a piece of

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content and produce other formats.

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Uh, seen that, you know, over the last

20, 25 years that I've been working

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in this industry, it's usually, you

know, I would call it a dumbing down.

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It's usually a l least common

denominator kind of, of these

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translators into these, uh, applications.

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And I know fo you know, fovea is

different in that each of those

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applications and different kinds of

file formats, it translates to Corey

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and his team have, uh, you know.

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They understand the native

capabilities of those applications

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and how to move that data into those

native applications and around.

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So maybe Corey, you can talk

a little bit more about, you

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know, what all went into that.

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Um, you know, even just more about your

background, you know, in the computer

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graphics side and, uh, how that's

played into, uh, really understanding

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this problem at a deeper level.

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Corey Rubadue: Yeah, sure.

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So, you know, practice architecture for

years and, uh, really was quite focused on

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the visualization side of, uh, practice.

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And, uh, I always said we were, we had

visual information modeling, before BIM

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was bim we were really trying to kind

of use, uh, visualization as a way to

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describe and show building design process.

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And outcomes as quickly and

as efficiently as possible.

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And as part of that process,

we built some technology.

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Um, we originally started working

on a product called Vray for

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Rhino, Vray for SketchUp, Vray

for Revit back in: 2000

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And we got deep into the, inner works of,

of geometry materials, lights, all this

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stuff really super early on, and try to

get information converting from SketchUp

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into, uh, Vray file format as an example,

or Revit into, uh, the Vray file format.

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And so we just, we learned a lot

about these, um, applications,

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APIs to be able to take.

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Material from SketchUp at the time in

: 2005

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for a material definition, um, you know,

a base color and maybe a texture map,

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but we weren't getting hyper, you know,

detailed information about the materials,

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like reflection values, refraction

values and stuff like that, because

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SketchUp didn't have that information and

that, uh, delivering through their API.

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But on the other hand, Revit did.

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So we had information coming from

Revit to be able to build, really,

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accurate 3D models from these

applications into, at the time it

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was very strictly vra uh, VRA assets,

VRA scene files, and VRA proxy files.

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so, that experience

really set the stage for.

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And help me kind of set the stage, reset

the stage for RPC, and I came on board

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in whatever it was, 2019 on at Avision.

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You know, the main purpose for me, at

least in my mind at the time and vision

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was like, Hey, there are still problems

with content out there in the world.

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People don't get enough content.

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People don't have enough 3D models

to access and get them in their

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project and inform their designs

or, or explain their designs.

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So our ARC vision just seemed to

be this platform where we could

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take these rrp, this RPC technology

and ultimately just transform it

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and bring it to a whole new level.

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And so that experience that I had with

vray, assets and creating scene files

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and trying to navigate content from one

application to another, served as that.

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Kind of catalyst, if you will,

for what we could do with RPC.

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And at the time when I stepped into the

ARC vision seat here, um, I really had to

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dig in and understand what was, what was,

what's, what was the DNA of of an RPC.

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And, uh, came, come to find out it was,

uh, as robust as it was in its early days,

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there were a lot of things that were not

in the RPC that needed to be there, like

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real materials for different objects.

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And, uh, you know, inside of a 3D model,

it was the RPC was designed to essentially

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either be image based where you had,

uh, 360 or more images inside of an RPC.

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And depending on the camera, it

would actually pop up an image, uh,

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and render that image at that time.

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or in a 3D model, or 3D RPC.

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It was a mesh.

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With, uh, or meshes with

textures baked on top of it.

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And the whole process of even getting

those 3D RPCs was, was pretty cumbersome.

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I mean, we using three Studio Max

going through a bunch of very technical

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things, uh, steps to get to, uh, and

our, uh, 3D RPC and get it out to

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the, you know, to your user base.

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And so, really as I stepped into this

role, you know, I try to understand like

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we, we don't want architects and designers

learning all this technical stuff.

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We really want to be able to kind of

come back down to the heart of what RPC

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and Randall and Avision design, which

was like ease of use, drag and drop, get

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everything inside of that file, and, just

make it easy for people to, to consume

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that piece of content and render period.

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mean we had to do a lot of dissecting of

the RPCs file structure and technology,

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uh, and then rebuild on top of that.

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And so, uh, looking at all these

lessons learned with Vray file formats

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and, and, um, other, you know, file

for formats like FBX or OBJ and uh,

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Colau files and things like that.

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Uh, coupled with, uh, looking at how

mental Ray was doing things and how

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Corona render and all these other

rendering engines were producing

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materials, geometry, how was all this

stuff transporting around, we had a

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lot of research to pull together to

try to come up and say, we want a, a

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really new single source of truth of

technology underneath the RPC file format.

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So.

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Evan Troxel: Corey, can you explain

what an RPC is for those who don't know?

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I'm sure almost everybody who's

listening to this or watching this

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has seen one, but they maybe don't

tie those two things together.

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What they see with RPC.

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Corey Rubadue: Sure.

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So RPC is a file format.

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Uh, RPR stands for, rich

Content is the acronym.

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And, uh, these are assets that,

um, it started out really just

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entourage cars, people, trees.

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Uh, the RPC families ship

with Revit as an example.

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So all the planting, uh, elements

that you can get outta the box

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of Revit are all RRP C files.

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And, uh, yeah, simple, simple,

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Evan Troxel: And, and basically what

you're seeing on the screen is like

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a, a very low resolution proxy of.

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When you render, it's gonna

look better than that.

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Right?

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But it's lightweight for the sake

of being lightweight in the model.

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And often it's like you see two billboards

kind of intersecting each other with

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a, with a outline around the object.

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So it, it kind of represents

a tree in that example, right?

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In Revit, when you place it, it has kind

of a, a base to it, and then two vertical

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billboards that represent the tree.

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But when you hit render,

you see a tree, right?

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And that's the idea behind this,

is you have this rich content that

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sits behind a very lightweight

geometry presentation in the

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Corey Rubadue: Absolutely.

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Yeah, that's, that's the whole idea

Randall, and I like to say it, uh, an

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RPC is a proxy for a future transaction,

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right?

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Um, it's, it's there, it doesn't

overburden your, your CAD

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package, whether it's SketchUp

or Revit or Rhino or whatever.

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The RPC is in there as

a, as a placeholder.

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Uh, and as soon as the

render hits that RPC.

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It'll, uh, it'll pull out the geometry,

the material, DNA, if you will, and

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render that in, in its photorealistic,

full photorealistic beauty.

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Evan Troxel: Cool.

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And content's always been the hardest

thing for architects to have to deal with.

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I mean, this is a conversation

we've all had over the years, right?

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Which is like we build models of

buildings, but putting the stuff in those

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buildings for the visualization, for the

space planning has always been difficult.

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Where do you find it?

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Is it the right quality?

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Is it too detailed?

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Is it not detailed enough?

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Is it made by the manufacturer?

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Is it the right dimensions?

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And this has always been hard and I,

you guys have been at the forefront of.

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Content or assets or entourage, like

all different words that we could

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kind of interchangeably use here.

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And so that, that's where the, the

value proposition is for what you're

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doing right, is democratizing the

creation of, and cataloging of, so

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that firms and, you know, practicing

architects, people doing visualization,

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have access to these things at their

fingertips to throw into their model.

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Because then it allows you to

focus on building the model, right?

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Not, not curating and

texturing and creating

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Randall Stevens: Yeah, and I'll throw,

I'll just throw in 'cause I was obviously

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involved with this in the earliest stages

and, you know, the, the people in the

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trees, the technique that was developed,

uh, uh, kind of underlying that technology

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was thrown at the tough problem of organic

things like people in trees, right?

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Where, where you've got very

complex geometry, potentially

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very complex materials and

textures to make that look real.

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So, you know, in its early days, it's

served its purpose in helping you

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know, the industry to, uh, you know.

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When that first came around, there wasn't

any, there was, there really wasn't any

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other good way, good way to do that.

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And especially at, at,

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Evan Troxel: no, you, you would load

one human or one tree model from

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onyx tree, for example, back in the

day, and it would have more polygons

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than your entire architectural model.

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Right.

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And it would just absolutely kill

back then when computing performance

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was, was very limited at that point.

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Right.

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So, I mean, the, the idea

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Randall Stevens: Yeah.

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And I think the, um, um, I, you

know, I think though that the, the

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DNA of that technology and which is

what made it, you know, very special

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when Corey came, you know, and

brought even more, uh, I'll say broad

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visualization platform knowledge to it.

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Um, the underlying technology had really

concentrated on how, how do you store.

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lots of different kinds of data.

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Not just geometry, but material

information and texture information.

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How do you package that?

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That's where the RPC file format came in.

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So that, so that it wasn't a bunch of

loose, you know, I call it loose content.

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You didn't want JPEGs over

here that were, you know, now

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not in the same path, and they

didn't render because a texture

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was missing and all that.

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So there was,

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you know, and that was, as Corey

said, that was all about, you know,

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how do you make this stuff easy?

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The way you make it easy is try to

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just not not let a mistake,

you know, even occur.

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And then, um,

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Evan Troxel: Yeah.

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Randall Stevens: and then, you know,

the other piece of that I think,

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you know, in the early days was, um,

that content needed to be able to

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be rendered in lots of different.

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Rendering engines and applications.

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So there was a long history of Arc

visions, the company having, uh,

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relationships with all of the rendering,

the people doing rendering engines.

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So, and getting that kind of baked in

there and supported, uh, kind of natively.

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And as Corey said, even, you know,

with Autodesk, I think they began

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shipping that Corey, what, 2010 or

11 whenever the tree and Foliage

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solution started shipping with Revit.

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So it's always been kind of

in the DNA to do all that.

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I think what's, you know, special

about what Corey's been doing now

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is, you know, one, I'll just say

modernizing the definition of the

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storage of that information inside

the file and, and those capabilities.

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But then, you know, looking at,

you know, can you, um, you know,

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maybe Corey, you can talk a little

bit more instead of having to have

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those companies, um, support the

RPC file format in some special way.

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What, uh, the team at Arc Fission's

been doing with the fovea application

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is saying, look, we can store it

all this data in its highest form,

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but we can spit it out into a native

form that that application wants to

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without losing or dumbing down quality.

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So, you know, it's, it's a

little bit of the opposite.

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Instead of everybody trying to consume

one file format, it's like, look, can

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we get the highest level of information

and then map that and translate it

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into the native formats that each

of those applications wants to know.

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So if you're trying to use it in

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Inscape, it's gonna know what

to do, or if you're gonna use it

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in Vray or one of these others.

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So.

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Evan Troxel: Give each

package what it is expecting.

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Before you do that, Corey, I just,

can we just share like how many

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nightmares we've had where we've.

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Sent the job to the render farm

overnight or for days at a time to come

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back and find that that one material,

that one diffused material or that one

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bump map or whatever was not there.

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Right.

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Oh my gosh.

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And you have to do the whole thing again.

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Right.

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Uh, we've, we've all been around

long enough to, to have lived that

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Randall Stevens: there's

a lot of complexity there

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Corey Rubadue: and that,

and that wasn't, um.

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Discriminatory in any way.

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Like didn't matter what the file

name was or the file size or what

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the texture map was for, if it was

missing, it was missing and it broke

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everything.

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Right?

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Evan Troxel: yep.

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Or some weird character in a

file name or something like that.

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It was just like the littlest

things and it was like, oh my gosh.

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It was a learning experience

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Randall Stevens: and it's still to

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this day, right?

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You can download, um, man, you know, I

see the manufacturer content all the time.

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Pull down a Revit family, you

know, from a manufacturer.

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Geometry will come in, right?

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It's in that RFA

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file.

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But as soon as you hit render

and you hit the rendering engine,

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it's like missing these maps.

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It's like, why did you know one, maybe

they didn't even come down with that

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file off, you know, as it was zipped

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up or something.

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So there's just, there's just still a lot

of complexity in the industry around this

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and uh, you know, but maybe Corey, you

can talk more about what you're trying

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to do with the fovea, you know, and

that sitting in the avail application.

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Corey Rubadue: Yes.

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: 00:17:51

I kind of killed a couple

birds with one stone here.

295

: 00:17:53

If I zoom out just a little bit and

just talk about the other part of RPC,

296

: 00:17:58

which is yes, there's the content, but

the, the technology that's that Randall

297

: 00:18:02

you were alluding to, like there's

an A-P-I-A-C plus plus API behind RPC

298

: 00:18:10

and originally that c plus plus API is

what our, um, our partners were using.

299

: 00:18:16

So, folks that, on the Revit team or, or,

um, you know, there was Lux, um, a handful

300

: 00:18:25

of other vendors, MicroStation, you

know, we had those companies coming and

301

: 00:18:31

working with us, using our APIs at that

level to build integrations into their

302

: 00:18:37

applications to support RPC and part of.

303

: 00:18:42

know, my approach with this was to,

again, even try to look at the platform,

304

: 00:18:47

the, the programmatic platform that

we had and figure out and try to

305

: 00:18:52

design something that it could become

much more friendly web-based, uh,

306

: 00:18:58

web API based stuff as an example.

307

: 00:19:01

Um, more accessible people might be

able to see, someday, see RRP C as, as

308

: 00:19:06

in an open source format and be able

to use Python and other languages to

309

: 00:19:11

be able to use our platform in general.

310

: 00:19:15

And so not just, you know, I wasn't,

I'm not just looking or haven't been

311

: 00:19:20

just looking at the content as being

democratized, but also the technology

312

: 00:19:25

that wraps around everything we're doing.

313

: 00:19:27

And part of our journey

was at the beginning was we

314

: 00:19:32

had to take RPC technology.

315

: 00:19:37

From what used to be Avision called

Avision Dashboard, which was a content

316

: 00:19:42

manager specifically designed for

delivering RPCs from the cloud to

317

: 00:19:50

users before cloud was cloud probably.

318

: 00:19:53

Um, and take that experience and,

uh, keep as much of it intact as

319

: 00:20:00

we could and bring it into avail

and integrate our content delivery.

320

: 00:20:06

Uh, everything from thumbnails to

the downloads into preview, being

321

: 00:20:11

able to preview the models, all that.

322

: 00:20:13

We had to build a bunch of different

technologies around our APIs and

323

: 00:20:17

start to democratize the c plus

plus stuff into other languages so

324

: 00:20:22

that, uh, we could talk with a veil.

325

: 00:20:24

Right.

326

: 00:20:25

And that started the, the really the,

in my mind, that's where we started to

327

: 00:20:30

have to, Build the foundation of fovea

before fovea was fovea, if you will.

328

: 00:20:38

Um, so the data flow, the, uh, not

just the geometry, not just the

329

: 00:20:44

textures, but there was meta, there's

metadata involved with all this stuff.

330

: 00:20:48

There's special GUID's around

the a, the assets so that we can

331

: 00:20:51

track them and understand where

they're going and things like that.

332

: 00:20:55

So ultimately, there's a lot of

engineering around making this

333

: 00:21:00

simple and simpler, not just from

the content consumption and use, but

334

: 00:21:05

really, you know, forward thinking.

335

: 00:21:08

Let's get a bunch of content creators,

a bunch of main building product

336

: 00:21:11

manufacturers, involved with our

APIs and be able to use them to even

337

: 00:21:16

translate and, and deliver RPCs of their

own content into Revit and Rhino and

338

: 00:21:22

SketchUp and wherever, as opposed to.

339

: 00:21:25

The broken process as an example,

Randall, what you're talking about

340

: 00:21:28

downloading something from the

manufacturer's site and not getting

341

: 00:21:30

the texture maps we can deliver.

342

: 00:21:32

And we have the platform now, you know,

underneath the, our ARC vision RPC

343

: 00:21:36

technology to be able to deliver single

source of truth assets and give people

344

: 00:21:42

simple APIs to access that to, um, to

be able to deliver their own content.

345

: 00:21:47

Randall Stevens: Corey, maybe you can,

uh, you wanna share your screen and can

346

: 00:21:50

you show what, uh, fovea just ends up

looking like, uh, In the application?

347

: 00:21:55

Corey Rubadue: Fovea comes in

three different forms right now.

348

: 00:21:58

Um, we've got a web app version,

iOS app, and then this version

349

: 00:22:04

here, which is inside of a veil,

which is our latest and greatest.

350

: 00:22:08

So what you're looking at

here is, uh, a veil desktop.

351

: 00:22:12

Uh, on the right hand side, you'll see

the FOA window here, just sitting here.

352

: 00:22:18

And I'm going to just burst on the

scene and do a quick show and tell of

353

: 00:22:25

why is this important and what we're

really, what the power of Fovea is.

354

: 00:22:30

I can grab a model that's part of

the Fovea publication and literally

355

: 00:22:34

just drag and drop it directly

into this Fovea cannabis here

356

: 00:22:38

that's embedded inside of a Vail.

357

: 00:22:41

And, this, this is mind blowing to me

even in that we're in a content manager

358

: 00:22:48

and we're in, an application in a content

manager where we can manipulate 3D data.

359

: 00:22:55

I can grab a material

on here and whatever.

360

: 00:22:59

Let's just say we wanted that to be

black and I can change some of the

361

: 00:23:04

other material parameters in here.

362

: 00:23:06

So we've got the full material editing

capability for the asset right here,

363

: 00:23:11

and I can make that maybe more shiny

and do a couple operations there.

364

: 00:23:16

And And then very simply,

there's a published button.

365

: 00:23:21

I can give this a name, and this is

where I start to put some metadata on

366

: 00:23:24

this, uh, asset chair, whatever, uh,

give it a furniture category, how to

367

: 00:23:33

tag, and, um, let's just say, uh, modern

as an example, enter, and I won't get

368

: 00:23:44

in the weeds on this at just at this

very moment, but this is what we were

369

: 00:23:48

talking about earlier, um, where the

RPC has a, uh, proxy representation.

370

: 00:23:54

And as part of the publishing process,

you've got, you have the opportunity to

371

: 00:23:58

choose different, um, proxy mesh, uh,

meth methods and what the representation

372

: 00:24:04

will be in your CAD package.

373

: 00:24:06

Uh, you can even do some, uh.

374

: 00:24:08

Down sampling of textures and mesh

simplification and optimization here.

375

: 00:24:12

So if we know this asset's going to end

up in scape or something like that, and we

376

: 00:24:17

need to do some decimation on this, uh, we

can, let's say, make this, uh, uh, target

377

: 00:24:25

mesh count down to 63, uh, hundred and

changed triangles, and I can hit publish.

378

: 00:24:31

Um, so we're grabbing this in this

3D data, the instructions behind

379

: 00:24:37

it, sending it up to our cloud

services, through our APIs, um, and

380

: 00:24:42

publishing that piece of content.

381

: 00:24:44

And, what's great about the integration

that we have with avail is that

382

: 00:24:51

piece of content's going up into the

cloud, processing, metadata's being

383

: 00:24:56

stored, and at the com point that the

processing is completed in our, in our.

384

: 00:25:04

Um, in our web services, we'll now push

and synchronize that piece of content

385

: 00:25:11

directly into, um, this, this Fovea

channel that's sitting here in avail.

386

: 00:25:17

So I am not just making content

and editing a, creating content

387

: 00:25:23

in avail through the fovea lens.

388

: 00:25:26

I'm actually also putting it

in a managed state right away.

389

: 00:25:31

Okay?

390

: 00:25:32

So what's important about that is,

okay, if I built the asset, uh, maybe

391

: 00:25:38

from my web browser and I downloaded

it to my C Drive, does anybody else in

392

: 00:25:43

your company have access to that asset?

393

: 00:25:47

Maybe if you save that from your

c drive to a network, drive a

394

: 00:25:50

network location, a shared location

that everybody has access to.

395

: 00:25:54

But in this case we're, you know, we

were very, very focused on, again, ease

396

: 00:25:59

of use and trying to make sure that.

397

: 00:26:02

This content is, is, in a managed state

for users to be able to just not even

398

: 00:26:10

have to think about it's, it's here.

399

: 00:26:11

They can search for it.

400

: 00:26:13

They can just drag and drop

it into Revit and go, period.

401

: 00:26:17

Randall Stevens: you were

talking about the avail and, and

402

: 00:26:19

talking about these as lenses.

403

: 00:26:21

Um, on the avail platform, we have

a plugin architecture to avail.

404

: 00:26:26

That's allowing third parties like

Avision to build on top of the avail

405

: 00:26:32

as a content management platform.

406

: 00:26:33

And we call it our plugins lenses.

407

: 00:26:36

So when he talks about fovea as

a lens, it's a plugin inside.

408

: 00:26:40

So it's, it's a provision's technology

that's running, you know, on top of

409

: 00:26:45

this core content management platform,

which allows them to, allows our vision

410

: 00:26:49

to concentrate on this high value

added capabilities without having to go

411

: 00:26:54

rebuild over and over again a, you know,

core content management capabilities.

412

: 00:26:58

So as those assets are being published,

they're coming right back into the

413

: 00:27:03

core application, tagged, managed,

ready to go, uh, as opposed to being

414

: 00:27:08

downloaded from another service, then

having to be reorganized somewhere

415

: 00:27:12

is kind of all one stop shop.

416

: 00:27:16

Corey Rubadue: Yeah.

417

: 00:27:16

And, and.

418

: 00:27:17

Just to point out that this, um,

our first kind of step into this was

419

: 00:27:27

actually being able to build a, a,

a, model viewer, a previewer, if you

420

: 00:27:32

will, that got embedded inside of

avail, uh, early, pretty early on.

421

: 00:27:38

And so, people want to see what they're

going to drag and drop into Revit,

422

: 00:27:42

a Rhino or SketchUp, beforehand.

423

: 00:27:45

and so you can select, you know, pieces

of content and preview that model

424

: 00:27:51

in our little preview window here.

425

: 00:27:53

And that, that actual canvas here is the

backbone of what we're using in fovea.

426

: 00:28:00

So this is the same 3D

canvas that we have.

427

: 00:28:04

Uh, in fovea, just minus, you know,

the interface, uh, for controlling the

428

: 00:28:10

finer details of, uh, of publishing

and, and so on and so forth.

429

: 00:28:14

So this was our, our first step

into building and integrating some

430

: 00:28:19

technology into avail, um, before

we jumped into the FOIA realm of

431

: 00:28:25

being able to now edit this content.

432

: 00:28:28

I'll zoom back out here real quick.

433

: 00:28:29

Just to go back to the, kind of bigger

picture of what's, what's, what's getting

434

: 00:28:34

produced, what's FOIA really, you know,

doing and why, and so on and so forth.

435

: 00:28:39

So when I published that

chair, and it goes up into

436

: 00:28:44

our cloud, we're spinning off.

437

: 00:28:46

Um, a bunch of different

file formats out of this.

438

: 00:28:49

Yes, we make the RPC and

we make the RPC first.

439

: 00:28:52

That file form, that single

source of truth fi file format

440

: 00:28:55

is our, you know, first stop.

441

: 00:28:59

The next stop along the way is we,

um, we actually rely a lot on uh,

442

: 00:29:04

GLTF to transport, and help us,

migrate data, uh, into some of these

443

: 00:29:10

other file formats that you see.

444

: 00:29:12

But we have, uh, direct jobs, uh, behind

the scenes where we're taking the RPC and

445

: 00:29:19

we're getting RPC to GLTF and RPC to data

Smith and RPC, to, uh, FBX and, and USD

446

: 00:29:27

and Pure Landscape Asset, for instance,

or, um, RA VA steam file as an example.

447

: 00:29:35

So all of these file formats and

file types are spun out of the single

448

: 00:29:41

source of truth of what the RPC is.

449

: 00:29:43

Um, we specifically and kind of touch

on what Randall was saying earlier,

450

: 00:29:49

like RPC contains the richest form of

data, uh, and information and, uh, uh,

451

: 00:29:59

textures and all that, geometry and

textures and all that inside of that RPC.

452

: 00:30:06

And now we can take and repurpose

any of that information into these

453

: 00:30:12

different file formats through

our, through our API basically.

454

: 00:30:15

So that's what fovea is doing.

455

: 00:30:16

It ultimately it'll, it, it's

just spill spits out a bunch

456

: 00:30:19

of different file formats.

457

: 00:30:20

And this is, you know, a departure from

RPC in, in the main kind of way of looking

458

: 00:30:29

at it, which was we really, we could have

just kept building RPCs, and relying on

459

: 00:30:35

our c plus plus APIs to have partners.

460

: 00:30:38

Build plugins or

integrations with RPC files.

461

: 00:30:42

Um, but really we started to lean on

this idea of this proxy as, uh, sorry,

462

: 00:30:49

RPC as a proxy for a future transaction.

463

: 00:30:51

And so the way we see this is an RPC

may come into an application like

464

: 00:31:00

twin Motion, and when it comes into

twin motion, it may come in as just

465

: 00:31:05

the, the billboard representation.

466

: 00:31:06

That was the preview that you

saw inside of your Revit file.

467

: 00:31:11

Um, but what's slick about what, uh, what

we've done is literally with a, find

468

: 00:31:18

and replace, we can grab a data smith

version of that same asset and swap it

469

: 00:31:23

out in twin motion so that you get apples

to apples, the same car person tree, or

470

: 00:31:29

whatever the asset was that you placed

in Revit and that you might have been

471

: 00:31:32

rendering with scape or V-Ray in Revit.

472

: 00:31:35

Um, if your team happened to switch

over to use Twin Motion and they, they

473

: 00:31:39

would get with a little bit of, you

know, workflow involved, they would

474

: 00:31:43

be able to get the same apples to

apples, the same car, the same trees,

475

: 00:31:47

the same people coming out with the

same materials, as, as the folks were

476

: 00:31:52

getting on the Vray render team inside of

477

: 00:31:55

Revit

478

: 00:31:56

Randall Stevens: maybe you can dig

479

: 00:31:57

into that a little bit more, Corey,

you know, just the, uh, the, the

480

: 00:32:00

reality that inside of a lot of firms,

the workflows, the, the modeling

481

: 00:32:05

workflows from design to visualization.

482

: 00:32:10

And back, right, back and forth.

483

: 00:32:12

It's not always a linear process and

everybody's going back and forth that,

484

: 00:32:16

um, you know, just how that understanding

drove the need to then have these

485

: 00:32:21

different, um, representations of the

same thing kind of readily available.

486

: 00:32:26

Evan Troxel: and maybe before you jump

in, Corey, I mean this is something that's

487

: 00:32:28

come up on, on TRXL podcast many times

and I, I just saw Ian Keough of Hypar

488

: 00:32:36

tweet this same exact sentiment, which

is like, we used to use design software

489

: 00:32:40

to document decisions that had been made.

490

: 00:32:44

Now we're using them to make

decisions along the way because

491

: 00:32:47

things are happening in real time.

492

: 00:32:48

And to Randall's point here, it's

like you're, you're looking at

493

: 00:32:52

the design in scape in real time

or in twin motion in real time.

494

: 00:32:56

You're visualizing what you're draw

what you're modeling and drawing and

495

: 00:32:59

the ramifications of those things

spatially in all the different ways.

496

: 00:33:04

How, how it makes you feel, how

you emotionally react to it.

497

: 00:33:07

And it drives the design.

498

: 00:33:09

It's not like the end

of the process anymore.

499

: 00:33:11

Right.

500

: 00:33:12

So like, just to reinforce what

Randall's saying, like I, I'm

501

: 00:33:15

seeing this, these tools are now

moving way earlier in the pipeline.

502

: 00:33:19

They're not just the end

of the sentence anymore.

503

: 00:33:21

They're are the end of the phase

right there, there is this feedback

504

: 00:33:25

loop that is, that is happening.

505

: 00:33:27

And so these things need

to be all bi-directional.

506

: 00:33:29

Corey Rubadue: Absolutely.

507

: 00:33:30

Yeah.

508

: 00:33:30

And so, you know, my, my

early days of working in, at

509

: 00:33:37

this point it was at Air St.

510

: 00:33:38

Gross Architects and

Planners in Baltimore.

511

: 00:33:40

And being in the middle of the

studio there, um, servicing

512

: 00:33:44

all different departments from

interiors, landscape designers, and,

513

: 00:33:50

and, you know, building studios.

514

: 00:33:53

we had to get information from the

design teams and designers into a place,

515

: 00:34:01

uh, in our case, it was, at that time

it was, it was three Studio Max and.

516

: 00:34:07

Produce a visuals, but also at the end

of it, be able to translate what we put

517

: 00:34:12

in the visuals back to the design teams.

518

: 00:34:14

So the design teams could document

what, what we put in the visuals.

519

: 00:34:19

Right.

520

: 00:34:20

And, that still exists today.

521

: 00:34:22

I mean, this is still happening and

Scape does a great job, but this for

522

: 00:34:27

folks nowadays where they can design

and visualize at the same time and they

523

: 00:34:31

can have things consistent and they're,

it's kind of, you know, not as, uh,

524

: 00:34:37

disjointed of a process as the older,

traditional, you know, design model or,

525

: 00:34:45

um, design documentation to a 3D modeler

specialized in max producing something.

526

: 00:34:51

And then the design team interacting

with what was going on in the

527

: 00:34:54

visualization development and Max.

528

: 00:34:56

And then trying to, again,

what do you do with it?

529

: 00:34:59

How do you get that information back?

530

: 00:35:00

So.

531

: 00:35:01

My, you know, my sentiment behind RPC

and, and want, what really drove me to

532

: 00:35:08

take the bull by the horns on RRP C is we

can, we can make this just this connection

533

: 00:35:14

between the asset and the design world,

the asset in the visualization world, and

534

: 00:35:20

hopefully someday be able to make that

connection back from the visualization

535

: 00:35:26

world back into the design world.

536

: 00:35:28

So an RPC in twin motion, or maybe let's

say even further down the line in the

537

: 00:35:34

Epic Stream, uh, maybe you're in, uh,

unreal Engine and, and with our Unreal,

538

: 00:35:41

uh, plugin RPC plugin for Unreal Engine

placing RPCs in inside of Unreal Engine

539

: 00:35:48

and, uh, ultimately be able to translate.

540

: 00:35:52

Back to the design team, back

to the folks that are in Revit

541

: 00:35:55

or Rhino or SketchUp or multiple

applications, you know, designing.

542

: 00:36:00

Um, which happens as we know.

543

: 00:36:02

Um, if I need to get, or what I

ideally will happen is you'll be able

544

: 00:36:09

to synchronize the RPCs that were

placed inside of Unreal Engine with

545

: 00:36:15

the Revit model or the Rhino model

or the SketchUp model, for instance.

546

: 00:36:20

All through, you know, our connections,

either APIs, um, or plugins or avail.

547

: 00:36:26

I mean, we'll be able to really hopefully

bring this, yes, bi-directional, but

548

: 00:36:33

interactive,

549

: 00:36:34

Randall Stevens: Uh,

Corey, I'll just jump in.

550

: 00:36:36

One of the favorite examples that, uh,

that I know that you've been working on

551

: 00:36:39

with some, some companies kind of closely.

552

: 00:36:42

Um, as an example, you'll have a design

team working in Revit on, uh, the ar

553

: 00:36:49

I'll just call it the architectural

components, but you might have a landscape

554

: 00:36:54

design team working primarily in Rhino,

completely separate design application.

555

: 00:37:00

Those.

556

: 00:37:01

Those models have to come together, right?

557

: 00:37:04

Uh, to be visualized and

vice, you know, vice versa.

558

: 00:37:08

The, the, the people working in

Revit wanna see the building in

559

: 00:37:11

context with the landscape and then

the landscape firm, terraforming and

560

: 00:37:16

entourage, and anything else that

might be going on on that front might

561

: 00:37:20

be primarily being driven outta Rhino.

562

: 00:37:22

Need to be able to see the context

of the building in that context.

563

: 00:37:25

part of what I've seen Corey and the team

being able to do is to show that, hey,

564

: 00:37:29

you can, you can take the entire Revit

project, right, no matter what scale, and

565

: 00:37:37

shove that into, say, an RPC file format.

566

: 00:37:40

Most people think about it as just a

chair or, or a single element, but you can

567

: 00:37:45

take the entire building and its textures

and materials into one file format

568

: 00:37:49

that then knows how to render in Rhino.

569

: 00:37:51

Well now you get one proxy object

that represents the building over

570

: 00:37:55

in Rhino that the, uh, landscape

team right is able to see.

571

: 00:38:00

And when they hit render, it flows into

the rendering engines and they can see it.

572

: 00:38:03

So, uh, maybe I'm stealing the thunder,

but Corey, maybe you can talk just a

573

: 00:38:08

little bit more because those are very

powerful, complex things where those teams

574

: 00:38:12

are respectively working with each other,

but that stuff needs to come together

575

: 00:38:16

and be visualized all along the way.

576

: 00:38:19

Corey Rubadue: Yeah, I mean the,

the, big, one of the bigger

577

: 00:38:21

projects that I worked on, uh,

back in the day was really heavily

578

: 00:38:27

reliant on being able to aggregate.

579

: 00:38:31

different data sets into one master

file and, um, be able to produce

580

: 00:38:37

a animation or a video or a film

of, of, you know, 10 30 buildings

581

: 00:38:44

in a urban context as an example.

582

: 00:38:46

And those workflows that we went

through back then were very similar

583

: 00:38:51

to what we were kind of being able

to do now with, with the RPC, which

584

: 00:38:55

is create a proxy, create a, a

container file, bring those proxies

585

: 00:39:02

into the container file hit render.

586

: 00:39:05

And voila, you've got proxies from

an outside source into the container

587

: 00:39:09

file, which is maybe in, like you said,

rhino, or it could be in SketchUp.

588

: 00:39:13

And you pretty quickly can get, uh, all,

all these data sets in and, literally

589

: 00:39:21

back out, in, in a very fluid way.

590

: 00:39:25

Evan Troxel: I had no idea that you

could shove an entire project into an

591

: 00:39:30

Randall Stevens: You got to, we'll

have to show you Evan, um, you

592

: 00:39:34

know, that we're, uh, some of this

is some of the, uh, fovea app has

593

: 00:39:38

integrated, um, AR capabilities into it.

594

: 00:39:43

So

595

: 00:39:44

I'm telling you, it's pretty slick.

596

: 00:39:45

You can take, I can be in Revit and I

can, I can hit a button, I can click

597

: 00:39:49

one button, shove an entire project.

598

: 00:39:52

I did it with this new

sample project, right?

599

: 00:39:54

That, uh,

600

: 00:39:55

that, that Harlan, uh, you know,

that we did the podcast with earlier.

601

: 00:39:59

Literally

602

: 00:40:00

within a minute you've got that entire

project shoved through fovea and I could

603

: 00:40:06

pull it up on my app and pull it up in ar.

604

: 00:40:11

And walk

605

: 00:40:12

through it at full scale, like

in the back parking lot and be

606

: 00:40:15

walking around inside that building.

607

: 00:40:18

And, um, it's, yeah, you can, you, you

can shove individual objects or entire

608

: 00:40:23

projects through this pipeline and

it, uh, and it all works seamlessly.

609

: 00:40:28

Evan Troxel: It's a paradigm shift

because I mean, we've always known RPC

610

: 00:40:31

to be these objects in the scene, right?

611

: 00:40:34

And so you're basically talking about

changing users' mindsets here too,

612

: 00:40:40

about what RPC can do and what it's

used for and the different use cases.

613

: 00:40:44

And so as a developer, those are the

kinds of things I assume you're also

614

: 00:40:49

thinking about when it comes to how you

market this and talk about it and reset

615

: 00:40:54

expectations around something much bigger

than anybody is kind of coming at it.

616

: 00:40:58

Just expecting it to be the next

small iteration on something that's

617

: 00:41:02

been around for quite a long time.

618

: 00:41:05

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631

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for their support of this episode.

633

: 00:42:10

And now let's get back

to the conversation.

634

: 00:42:15

Corey Rubadue: Yeah, so this is

for instance, that's the, um,

635

: 00:42:17

the Snowden Towers projects,

636

: 00:42:20

Evan Troxel: and

637

: 00:42:20

Nice.

638

: 00:42:21

Corey Rubadue: this is, now we're not

trying to visualize and render something.

639

: 00:42:26

This is the asset, right?

640

: 00:42:28

So now we can take this as an RPC, whether

it's, um, a bounding box of this or, um,

641

: 00:42:35

a simplified mesh or the old billboard

file style, uh, sorry, style of RPC.

642

: 00:42:41

We can, drag and drop this

inside of Revit and start, or

643

: 00:42:45

sorry, rhino, the source's Revit.

644

: 00:42:48

Bring this into Rhino or a SketchUp

and start, you know, designing

645

: 00:42:51

a new building on that parking

646

: 00:42:52

lot right there.

647

: 00:42:53

Evan Troxel: mm

648

: 00:42:54

mm

649

: 00:42:55

Randall Stevens: Or, or, you know,

650

: 00:42:56

just to emphasis on the,

the fovea that could be.

651

: 00:43:00

That very same source model that started

in Revit with all the materials and

652

: 00:43:04

textures can now be available in USD or

brought into Data Smith right into one

653

: 00:43:09

of the game engines or somewhere else.

654

: 00:43:11

So, and, uh,

655

: 00:43:12

but there's a connection between

all of those so you can kind of

656

: 00:43:15

bidirectionally, you know, get back

to the right data format that you want

657

: 00:43:19

right in, in whatever application that

you're wanting to, you know, work in.

658

: 00:43:23

Evan Troxel: So does this become

a link that, that design teams,

659

: 00:43:27

we all know you guys have been

in visualization forever, right?

660

: 00:43:30

That the design doesn't stop, right?

661

: 00:43:32

When you send the model to

the visualizing guys, that,

662

: 00:43:35

that's just the latest version.

663

: 00:43:37

It's not the, it's not the

the where it's gonna end.

664

: 00:43:39

And, and is there a way to, to

that this kind of helps solve that

665

: 00:43:44

problem, which is like, no, I really

need your final model on Tuesday.

666

: 00:43:48

That's the last day that I

can accept your final model.

667

: 00:43:51

Does this give people the ability

to kind of continually work up

668

: 00:43:55

to that deadline in, in less of a

export, import kind of a manner?

669

: 00:44:00

Corey Rubadue: Uh, it still,

still will be an update, kind

670

: 00:44:04

of, kind of a workflow, right?

671

: 00:44:06

I mean, someone can write out the

new, the final version of that.

672

: 00:44:10

I.

673

: 00:44:11

Building or design and, uh, the, the

user in RiNo or SketchUp or whatever

674

: 00:44:18

would have to update that RPC and,

and that data set inside of that

675

: 00:44:23

application.

676

: 00:44:23

So there is, there is still a, you know,

a, some workflow involved, but we're not

677

: 00:44:29

talking about, you know, having to redo

all the materials and rebuild all the, you

678

: 00:44:34

know, the lighting and so on and so forth.

679

: 00:44:38

gets brought in with the RPC is what

was, where the project was left off

680

: 00:44:43

and, and say Revit in this

681

: 00:44:44

Randall Stevens: But I let, let me just in

682

: 00:44:46

let me inject Corey, just

so to make sure, but yes, it

683

: 00:44:49

requires a human to do it, but it's,

I can tell you, uh, you know, having

684

: 00:44:54

used it in Revit, it's one button

click and you're, and that's it.

685

: 00:44:59

It's like in, in,

686

: 00:45:00

in 60 seconds, the thing

687

: 00:45:02

is out there and able to be

consumed on the other end.

688

: 00:45:06

What I'll say about, you know, what

ARC Fission's working with, avail

689

: 00:45:09

on part of a veil's platform is, you

know, now that's a piece of content.

690

: 00:45:15

Well, now imagine that the, that,

that, that piece of content is in

691

: 00:45:20

an application, rhino or Revit.

692

: 00:45:23

Part of what

693

: 00:45:24

avails working on is the ability,

when something has been updated,

694

: 00:45:28

the content gets updated.

695

: 00:45:30

Can it either push a notification

that to the user, Hey,

696

: 00:45:35

there's a new version of this

697

: 00:45:36

available.

698

: 00:45:36

Do you want to update it?

699

: 00:45:37

Uh, so now you can imagine these

bi-directional workflows where different

700

: 00:45:40

people working on different parts, and

you want that stuff to come together.

701

: 00:45:43

We're doing that from the

standpoint of thinking about like

702

: 00:45:46

a manufacturer updates a piece of

703

: 00:45:48

information and you want to send,

you know, you want that to be,

704

: 00:45:51

um, people who are using that

piece of content to know that

705

: 00:45:54

there's an updated version of it.

706

: 00:45:56

But I also think that it's laying

the groundwork for that, you know,

707

: 00:46:00

you could be on a nightly basis,

you know, publishing the updated

708

: 00:46:03

version of the Revit model for the

day, and then as everybody comes

709

: 00:46:07

into work the next day, they're receiving

the next updated version and, you

710

: 00:46:10

know, moving along with their work.

711

: 00:46:11

So it's not, you know, the,

the, the, the framework's there.

712

: 00:46:15

Right now, people are manually kind

of pushing these things, but the,

713

: 00:46:18

the groundwork's being laid for this

to be automated in, in new ways.

714

: 00:46:23

Corey Rubadue: Yeah, and I mean, I can

use an example right now, actually,

715

: 00:46:26

two in particular, um, NVIDIA's

Omniverse platform as an example.

716

: 00:46:33

It's been kind of a, a great testing bed

for us and, and we we're gonna, we'll

717

: 00:46:41

be talking more about this in the next

few months, but, it what that platform

718

: 00:46:46

has allowed us to do, because it's

open developmentally and we can develop

719

: 00:46:53

a lot around our current APIs and.

720

: 00:46:57

Do a lot of things that we can't

do in Revit specifically, or Rhino

721

: 00:47:02

specifically, or whatever, because

those applications might have a limit

722

: 00:47:08

limitations on APIs and how geometry and

information comes into those applications.

723

: 00:47:13

So in the case of Omniverse, for instance,

uh, we have, uh, asset store plugin that

724

: 00:47:20

we built for omniverse, and it's really

designed to be a, uh, number one, an

725

: 00:47:28

authentication source, uh, to be able

to allow, uh, a provision subscriber

726

: 00:47:36

to log in, authenticate themselves

inside of that platform, and then

727

: 00:47:41

allow them to, download their assets,

which they might make through fovea

728

: 00:47:45

or through our subscription content.

729

: 00:47:48

but what's going on is, in, in Omniverse.

730

: 00:47:52

If somebody brings in a Revit file

and there's an RPC in it, uh, that

731

: 00:47:57

what we get inside of Omniverse is

the, again, a proxy object that's

732

: 00:48:02

transferred from Revit, the Revit

file into the Invi Omniverse platform.

733

: 00:48:07

We can literally, again, select that

asset and request via API to swap out that

734

: 00:48:16

asset with its twin in USD file format.

735

: 00:48:24

So it's a targeted file format for a

targeted use case in, in that application.

736

: 00:48:30

Uh, but it's it's center point reference.

737

: 00:48:35

Center reference point is

the RPC and the RPC Goid.

738

: 00:48:39

Right.

739

: 00:48:40

That's really making that connection.

740

: 00:48:42

Right.

741

: 00:48:43

Um, and then even now.

742

: 00:48:47

Literally we have a development

progress meeting this afternoon.

743

: 00:48:51

I'll show demo this integration that

we're working on with Blender, which

744

: 00:48:55

again, open source, uh, platform and

able, super easy for us to get around,

745

: 00:49:03

uh, programmatically and build tools

around and communicate with our API

746

: 00:49:08

with blender's, API and literally take,

a Revit project building project like

747

: 00:49:15

Snowden here and get it into blender

and two, two clicks and a drag and drop.

748

: 00:49:24

Randall Stevens: I

749

: 00:49:24

don't know if you did

it, but maybe you can

750

: 00:49:25

open up the preview panel and just

show that, that, you know, full

751

: 00:49:28

model is able to be rendered, right?

752

: 00:49:30

Even just in the web, in the

web render, but it's full.

753

: 00:49:35

The entire project right, is in there

with all of its glory materials, textures.

754

: 00:49:40

It is back to that, like you

755

: 00:49:41

don't have Elvis dangling

information that you're gonna lose.

756

: 00:49:44

So, uh, you know, for especially

through these visualization flows, it's,

757

: 00:49:48

uh.

758

: 00:49:48

Corey Rubadue: So yeah, so just so I'm

selecting, you know, one of the exports,

759

: 00:49:53

if you will, or one of the translations

into RPC of the Snowden project.

760

: 00:49:57

And there it is in its full

glory, this full data set,

761

: 00:50:01

Evan Troxel: I mean, that's the biggest

problem with file formats, right?

762

: 00:50:03

Is there, there's inherent data loss.

763

: 00:50:06

Uh, and there's also just kind of

you, loss of life of brain cells every

764

: 00:50:13

time somebody has to open one of these

FBX or OBJ or DAE dialogue boxes and

765

: 00:50:18

figure out which boxes to check or not

check and, and to push these updates

766

: 00:50:23

and to export and to import and to

switch the axes and flip this and that.

767

: 00:50:28

And what you're saying here is like,

we solved all that and, and we've

768

: 00:50:32

actually made it like Randall, you

said one button export from Revit.

769

: 00:50:36

That's a big deal.

770

: 00:50:37

How much time has, would think back to

how much time has been spent in those

771

: 00:50:42

dialogue import export dialogue boxes, and

how much data has been lost through those

772

: 00:50:47

translation processes over time in the

architectural field alone, it's enormous.

773

: 00:50:53

Right?

774

: 00:50:53

And, and so this, this

is a big deal actually.

775

: 00:50:56

Corey Rubadue: Yeah, I mean, it's

a, it's an ongoing exercise, right?

776

: 00:50:58

I mean, we've, we've, constantly have to

evolve the communication of these assets

777

: 00:51:04

across these different file formats.

778

: 00:51:07

One renderer will treat one

texture map one way and another

779

: 00:51:10

render will treat it completely

the opposite way, as an example.

780

: 00:51:14

Right?

781

: 00:51:15

And we've gotta, we've gotta learn this,

whether learn it through the artistic

782

: 00:51:19

means that we have of having to have done

it before or our users doing it daily.

783

: 00:51:26

Um, but those are the, like,

the little nuances that we

784

: 00:51:29

gotta capture and figure out.

785

: 00:51:30

Okay.

786

: 00:51:31

How does a, transparency map, translate

differently between vray and n scape or

787

: 00:51:37

differently between, um, Revit and Rhino?

788

: 00:51:42

Um, we're trying to take all those

complexities out of the equation.

789

: 00:51:46

We can't hit everything with, you

know, one silver bullet, but we're,

790

: 00:51:49

we're progressing and our APIs are

progressing and the communication

791

: 00:51:54

around all that, um, is progressing.

792

: 00:51:58

So at the end of the day.

793

: 00:52:01

you know, we've got a work cut out for

us still to, to remain agnostic with

794

: 00:52:04

the technologies that we're building

so that we're not dependent on a

795

: 00:52:09

particular renderer or dependent on

a particular, CAD package or, or 3D

796

: 00:52:15

package, but that we can just hopefully

let people share and consume and,

797

: 00:52:24

uh, build

798

: 00:52:25

Randall Stevens: One of

799

: 00:52:25

the things, uh, one of the things Evan,

that I've just been excited about from

800

: 00:52:30

a veil standpoint of seeing this evolve

and, and, you know, now making its way

801

: 00:52:34

out into the market, is this idea that

inside of, inside of a firm, especially,

802

: 00:52:40

you know, a firm of any size, I always

refer to it as like you have people

803

: 00:52:45

at the edges of the network, people at

their desk working and building, right?

804

: 00:52:49

In the end, those are the, that's

where the, the work's being done.

805

: 00:52:52

But the idea that

806

: 00:52:53

as as assets or, or things are

created and, and the, the idea

807

: 00:52:58

that they can be published

808

: 00:53:00

centrally back into the system.

809

: 00:53:03

And then democratized right through,

through, Hey, I've made this in Rhino,

810

: 00:53:09

but you can consume it in Revit, right?

811

: 00:53:12

Immediately, like within

812

: 00:53:13

two minutes that

813

: 00:53:14

I've pushed this back in.

814

: 00:53:15

So I have this.

815

: 00:53:17

Um, I think that that's where this can

be at least initially, that people will

816

: 00:53:21

see, uh, a lot of the value out of it is,

Hey, we can, as we're creating things,

817

: 00:53:25

no matter which of these applications

we're creating them in, if they come

818

: 00:53:28

back through this hub and then they're

made available, then for anybody that

819

: 00:53:33

wants to now consume those, you're not,

you know, you're not having to rely

820

: 00:53:38

on whoever built it to go do something

and try to translate it for you.

821

: 00:53:41

It's like, no, this is

automatically being converted.

822

: 00:53:44

Not in a dumb way, but in a very

smart, you know, high level way

823

: 00:53:48

and keeping the integrity of that

data as it, as it moves around.

824

: 00:53:51

So I think there's a lot of value

to be exercised or, or found and

825

: 00:53:55

uncovered, uh, just through that,

uh, part of the process as well.

826

: 00:54:01

Evan Troxel: I think also one of the

things that this allows, through this

827

: 00:54:04

democratization process and through this

kind of single source of truth, but, but

828

: 00:54:08

multiple outlets, is that there's a lot

of tools in the toolbox and you wanna be

829

: 00:54:13

able to use the right one for the job.

830

: 00:54:15

And that doesn't mean you're gonna

use the same tool on every single job.

831

: 00:54:18

And it may even mean that there are

different people on the same project using

832

: 00:54:22

different tools to do different things.

833

: 00:54:24

And it's nice to have the ability to pick

the right tool for the job, but still know

834

: 00:54:29

that you can get all your stuff in there.

835

: 00:54:31

So if, if you've got a

vis person using max.

836

: 00:54:35

With Vray and you've got another person

doing interactive content in Unreal,

837

: 00:54:39

and you've got a designer sitting at

their desk using scape for day-to-Day

838

: 00:54:43

visualization, you can still easily

get the same content and models to all

839

: 00:54:49

of those people in a very simple way.

840

: 00:54:52

I mean that, that to me is, there's a

huge potential there to really unify

841

: 00:54:57

workflows, but still give choice to the

people who wanna be able to make that

842

: 00:55:02

choice of what tool to use for what job.

843

: 00:55:04

Corey Rubadue: Yeah, and Evan, I mean,

frankly, you know, having that choice

844

: 00:55:08

and being able to open people up to

many choices is one of the catalysts of,

845

: 00:55:14

you know, us breaking out of, in this

case, building all every RPC ourselves.

846

: 00:55:23

Like originally when this all started,

we were, we were producing every

847

: 00:55:27

RPC and that wasn't something that

I wanted to subscribe for and, and

848

: 00:55:33

for the company to, to commit to

just creating content constantly.

849

: 00:55:38

And so the first, you know, really

the first, you know, steps into

850

: 00:55:43

fovea, were like, Hey, wait a minute.

851

: 00:55:45

No, let's take our old avision creator

technology that we had and make it,

852

: 00:55:51

more accessible, cross platform, cross

device, and let people have choices of

853

: 00:55:57

which file formats they want to bring in.

854

: 00:55:59

Not just pigeonhole them into

going into three Studio Max

855

: 00:56:02

and doing certain workflows and

getting that data out into an RPC.

856

: 00:56:06

Like, okay, let's open this

up as much as we possibly can.

857

: 00:56:11

If you're a SketchUp subscriber

and you swear by using, um.

858

: 00:56:18

3D Warehouse to get your assets,

but, and, and you need to get a

859

: 00:56:23

chair from Warehouse into Revit.

860

: 00:56:25

It's two clicks from our, our setup.

861

: 00:56:27

Grab the file from warehouse, drag

it into fovea, publish it, drag

862

: 00:56:33

it from avail back into Revit, and

you've got, that chair from your,

863

: 00:56:38

your go-to library directly into

864

: 00:56:41

Revit.

865

: 00:56:41

Boom.

866

: 00:56:42

Done.

867

: 00:56:42

So it we're kind of, we try to

keep our blinders off and let

868

: 00:56:46

people use any of these options out

there to create their own content.

869

: 00:56:50

I don't wanna make content anymore.

870

: 00:56:52

So that's, you know, that was

really the one of the catalysts,

871

: 00:56:55

right?

872

: 00:56:57

Evan Troxel: It makes a lot of

sense because you're, you're almost

873

: 00:56:59

definitely not gonna make the

exact content that somebody needs

874

: 00:57:02

Randall Stevens: It's in stage five,

which is it's insatiable Right.

875

: 00:57:05

Journey,

876

: 00:57:05

Corey Rubadue: n never.

877

: 00:57:06

Right.

878

: 00:57:07

So I, I've got.

879

: 00:57:08

This is kind of the latest and

greatest and I'll just show,

880

: 00:57:12

um, what we're doing in Blender.

881

: 00:57:13

Again, blender, this, you know,

open source platform, easy for us to

882

: 00:57:18

develop around, so on and so forth.

883

: 00:57:19

So, we've built a publisher

for fovea directly in Blender.

884

: 00:57:24

So I'm logged in, uh, I can add a

file name here, so on and so forth.

885

: 00:57:30

I'm, I can set up my parameters

just as if I was inside of, uh, veil

886

: 00:57:35

and fovea like I showed earlier.

887

: 00:57:37

Um, but you know, what I have here is now

if I'm get a scene from my blender guy,

888

: 00:57:44

uh, I can do something like I can isolate

the CH chair from that scene, right?

889

: 00:57:52

And I can give this a name, chair,

I can give it a category furniture

890

: 00:57:57

chair tag, um, podcast as an example.

891

: 00:58:04

Again, I can choose my, my, uh, proxy

type, whichever way I want it to bring

892

: 00:58:08

in, uh, billboard, published a Fovea.

893

: 00:58:11

I'm gonna generate my preview of this.

894

: 00:58:14

So I've got a preview, a

thumbnail of the, of this.

895

: 00:58:17

So the thumbnail goes along for the ride.

896

: 00:58:19

Uh, I'll see this in a veil or wherever

the RPC or any of the file formats go.

897

: 00:58:25

And from here I can publish the Fovea.

898

: 00:58:29

So again, we're taking this data set,

pushing it up into the, to our services,

899

: 00:58:34

running the translations, all that stuff.

900

: 00:58:36

I can literally, now, once this is

published, go grab even a dot blend,

901

: 00:58:41

file a native blender file that we

are packaging up along for the ride

902

: 00:58:49

as the single source of truth for

the original, the original model.

903

: 00:58:53

And once this is all done, processing,

I can literally drag and drop

904

: 00:58:58

the same, uh, the blender file,

native blender file into blender.

905

: 00:59:02

And, Basically 360 degrees.

906

: 00:59:05

Uh, I can open up that file in fovea

edit, make edits and hit publish again,

907

: 00:59:11

and I'll get another blender file

out and I'll be able to drag and drop

908

: 00:59:15

that blender file into, into blender.

909

: 00:59:17

So in many cases, let's say full

360 bidirectional workflow, just,

910

: 00:59:22

and this is on an asset level, but

we can zoom, we can zoom out, and

911

: 00:59:28

we can do this at the, at that room

912

: 00:59:30

level

913

: 00:59:31

Evan Troxel: So you could theoretically

have somebody who's like a content manager

914

: 00:59:34

or a librarian, constantly be monitoring

what's coming into fovea and avail

915

: 00:59:41

and making changes in there to kind of

standardize things with certain metadata

916

: 00:59:46

or materials or looks or whatever it may

be, and publishing those to a content

917

: 00:59:52

library for everybody to use and they

don't have to know Blender as an example.

918

: 00:59:58

Corey Rubadue: So, you know, back to back

to avail and what, what people will see.

919

: 01:00:02

So the fovea channel is a,

is a plan level channel.

920

: 01:00:07

by

921

: 01:00:07

design there will

922

: 01:00:08

Randall Stevens: You mean?

923

: 01:00:09

You mean by that you mean company-wide

We call, we call 'em plans.

924

: 01:00:12

Corey Rubadue: Companywide plan.

925

: 01:00:13

Sorry.

926

: 01:00:13

Yeah, sorry.

927

: 01:00:14

Companywide plan.

928

: 01:00:15

Yeah.

929

: 01:00:16

And, uh, what that means is they'll,

they'll be a, a gatekeeper at the, at,

930

: 01:00:21

you know, at the top of this, right?

931

: 01:00:22

There's an administrator or

publisher that will have access.

932

: 01:00:26

To all of what's coming into Fovea.

933

: 01:00:29

And at that point, you know, you

can have folks being able to approve

934

: 01:00:34

pieces of content and get that

content, um, in a, in a focused

935

: 01:00:42

custom, uh, avail channel, if you will.

936

: 01:00:46

Um, so that folks can have their

own firm wide channel that's

937

: 01:00:50

absolutely separate from, from Fovea,

938

: 01:00:53

even

939

: 01:00:54

Randall Stevens: Yeah,

Corey's got, Corey's got

940

: 01:00:56

tons of stories.

941

: 01:00:57

Ray's told me about.

942

: 01:00:59

You know, somebody's

under a tight deadline.

943

: 01:01:01

They've got a project, there's an asset

that was available on Turbo Squid or that

944

: 01:01:05

they found, you know, somewhere, right?

945

: 01:01:07

May, maybe it was even on their

network, but it was in the wrong file.

946

: 01:01:10

It was in a different file format

than whatever application they're

947

: 01:01:13

working in, but they need it.

948

: 01:01:14

So for them to be able to figure

out how to get that content that

949

: 01:01:18

they know is right here in hand

into the right form, right, is very

950

: 01:01:22

frustrating, time consuming, and, and

951

: 01:01:24

ultimately expensive process.

952

: 01:01:25

So I think

953

: 01:01:27

there's just a ton of, you know, of, of

real un, you know, uncovering all this

954

: 01:01:32

value in, Hey, you can just now drop that.

955

: 01:01:36

I don't even have to know

anything about Blender.

956

: 01:01:37

All I have to know is that this

FOIA application knows what to do

957

: 01:01:39

with it, and then boom, here it is.

958

: 01:01:41

I can now

959

: 01:01:42

bring that into Inscape, or I can bring

that into Revit or some other place and

960

: 01:01:46

leverage it immediately is very powerful.

961

: 01:01:49

Corey Rubadue: Yeah.

962

: 01:01:49

Evan Troxel: Again, just how much

time that could potentially save,

963

: 01:01:52

because that is an iterative process

of, uh, trial by fire, right?

964

: 01:01:56

Which is like, okay, we're gonna import

it and see what didn't work, and we're

965

: 01:02:01

gonna go back and we're gonna check some

different boxes and we're gonna try again.

966

: 01:02:04

And okay, I, I have to learn how

to use this because I don't use

967

: 01:02:07

blender and I'm, I'm used to 3D

Studio Max or whatever it is.

968

: 01:02:10

And that is, like you said, it's

an expensive proposition because

969

: 01:02:14

you're paying staff by the hour or

whatever, and what a pain, like, it's

970

: 01:02:18

not gonna work right the first time.

971

: 01:02:19

It never works right the first time

unless you're an expert in that particular

972

: 01:02:23

file format translation process.

973

: 01:02:25

So, uh, taking all the guesswork

outta that is, I think there's,

974

: 01:02:29

that's the kind of thing that.

975

: 01:02:31

It's hard to explain that because firms

don't necessarily, although they bill by

976

: 01:02:35

the hour and they sell time for money,

they don't necessarily value their own

977

: 01:02:39

time in the ways that we're talking about

here because it's just, that's how it is.

978

: 01:02:44

Right.

979

: 01:02:44

Everybody just expects that's how it is

and when you can actually show that, okay,

980

: 01:02:48

we, we took this thing that normally takes

like literally 40 minutes for somebody

981

: 01:02:52

to figure out how to do it right the

first time because they don't use the

982

: 01:02:55

application every day and X, y, and Z

reasons, and we made it take 20 seconds.

983

: 01:03:00

Like that is, that's in,

that's a big deal inside of a

984

: 01:03:04

Randall Stevens: Yeah.

985

: 01:03:04

Now multiply that by however many,

anyway, the, the bigger the firm.

986

: 01:03:07

How many times

987

: 01:03:08

is that happening across

or across the year?

988

: 01:03:10

Evan Troxel: Right,

989

: 01:03:11

Corey Rubadue: can tell you guys,

you know, I just got off a call.

990

: 01:03:15

And, um, the, the gentleman's trying to

get assets that he scanned with his iPhone

991

: 01:03:22

from Poly cam into his Revit project.

992

: 01:03:26

And, you know, I got him access

to our iOS app beta and just did a

993

: 01:03:34

15 minute tour of how things work.

994

: 01:03:38

Dragon dropped an RPC of a poly CAM

scan from avail directly into Revit.

995

: 01:03:45

And, um, I, I, he, I mean,

honestly he couldn't believe

996

: 01:03:50

that it was that, that easy.

997

: 01:03:51

Um, it was, but it, I also couldn't

believe like how well the scan data was

998

: 01:03:59

coming in, uh, that he had captured with

poly cam and how powerful Poly Cam was.

999

: 01:04:04

So I'm sitting there thinking to

myself, you know, we zoomed out

: 1000

01:04:08,073 --> 01:04:11,253

before, well before we made the iOS

app, and made a decision that we

: 1001

01:04:11,253 --> 01:04:15,993

weren't going to get in the business

of making a a iOS scanner app.

: 1002

01:04:16,563 --> 01:04:20,403

And that what we wanted to do was

actually embrace as many of the

: 1003

01:04:20,403 --> 01:04:24,963

scanning apps as we possibly could in

the file formats that they deliver so

: 1004

01:04:24,963 --> 01:04:31,383

that you can get those assets up into

fovea and into Revit, rhino, SketchUp

: 1005

01:04:31,383 --> 01:04:33,063

or wherever as quickly as possible.

: 1006

01:04:33,993 --> 01:04:39,573

And, you know, he happened to be a poly

cam user who's had a bunch of scans and

: 1007

01:04:39,573 --> 01:04:45,423

he's like, I need these, this bike scan,

this bike, I want this bike in, in Rev.

: 1008

01:04:45,423 --> 01:04:45,513

It.

: 1009

01:04:45,987 --> 01:04:51,149

so the processing time, was probably

the, you know, the longest part

: 1010

01:04:51,149 --> 01:04:55,739

or the most built up anticipation

and you're like, okay, well,

: 1011

01:04:55,769 --> 01:04:56,939

well, when's it gonna get here?

: 1012

01:04:56,939 --> 01:05:04,230

So, Once it got produced and the drag and

drop happened, he, his eyes just lit up.

: 1013

01:05:04,230 --> 01:05:04,529

It was

: 1014

01:05:04,620 --> 01:05:05,220

pretty awesome.

: 1015

01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,055

Evan Troxel: so is that

throwing an RFA into Revit?

: 1016

01:05:08,055 --> 01:05:08,715

Is it a family

: 1017

01:05:08,940 --> 01:05:13,500

Corey Rubadue: So, well, technically

speaking, um, when you drag and drop

: 1018

01:05:13,500 --> 01:05:16,110

the RPC into Revit, we build an RFA

: 1019

01:05:17,000 --> 01:05:17,120

Evan Troxel: Hmm.

: 1020

01:05:17,130 --> 01:05:20,131

Corey Rubadue: behind the scenes

that contains the, the link, if

: 1021

01:05:20,131 --> 01:05:22,771

you will, to the, to the RPC.

: 1022

01:05:23,581 --> 01:05:25,861

Um, so there's, there's an RFA involved.

: 1023

01:05:25,866 --> 01:05:26,701

Yeah, we create it

: 1024

01:05:27,438 --> 01:05:33,048

when we create that family, we

take metadata from the asset,

: 1025

01:05:33,048 --> 01:05:37,518

so the tags and category of

the asset and things like that.

: 1026

01:05:37,523 --> 01:05:43,308

And we actually try to put out as much

of that into the family as we can.

: 1027

01:05:43,308 --> 01:05:48,078

And if it's a furniture piece as an

example, we make sure that, that the.

: 1028

01:05:48,563 --> 01:05:54,018

FRFA that gets made is actually a Revit

family, a furniture family, and not just

: 1029

01:05:54,018 --> 01:05:56,688

a g you know, generic, um, entourage

: 1030

01:05:56,808 --> 01:05:57,468

family as an

: 1031

01:05:57,468 --> 01:05:58,008

example.

: 1032

01:05:58,278 --> 01:06:01,398

So we try to, try to do that.

: 1033

01:06:01,398 --> 01:06:04,698

we can't do that for every Revit

category 'cause of the way things

: 1034

01:06:04,703 --> 01:06:05,988

are in Revit at the moment.

: 1035

01:06:05,988 --> 01:06:10,105

But, I know in the future we'll be

able to do something pretty slick, um,

: 1036

01:06:10,255 --> 01:06:15,175

around that, uh, to be able to keep,

keep these, uh, these assets pushed into

: 1037

01:06:15,175 --> 01:06:17,035

the right Revit category as an example.

: 1038

01:06:17,820 --> 01:06:18,040

Oh.

: 1039

01:06:18,485 --> 01:06:23,298

Evan Troxel: did a poly cam scan

and brought that model into rhino.

: 1040

01:06:24,198 --> 01:06:28,338

And even then, it was the first

time I've done it and it, because

: 1041

01:06:28,338 --> 01:06:32,568

I I Black Friday dealed the poly

cam for a year this last year.

: 1042

01:06:32,658 --> 01:06:32,898

Right.

: 1043

01:06:33,138 --> 01:06:34,338

And I, I wanted to play with it.

: 1044

01:06:34,788 --> 01:06:39,228

And so I did a room scan model and

brought that into Rhino and just

: 1045

01:06:39,228 --> 01:06:42,408

getting the scale right and everything

is still, it's still an issue, right?

: 1046

01:06:42,408 --> 01:06:46,398

Like just getting stuff to show up,

how you expect it to just show up

: 1047

01:06:46,458 --> 01:06:49,428

immediately is not how it actually works.

: 1048

01:06:49,668 --> 01:06:54,228

You still need to know about the

translation and the, and which boxes

: 1049

01:06:54,228 --> 01:06:58,098

to check and which scale to apply and

what, what units are you working in, in

: 1050

01:06:58,098 --> 01:07:01,158

poly camm and what units are you working

in, in Rhino and all those things.

: 1051

01:07:01,518 --> 01:07:05,928

And to make it easy is, it's a,

again, I just keep going back to this.

: 1052

01:07:05,928 --> 01:07:06,528

It's a big deal.

: 1053

01:07:06,533 --> 01:07:09,318

It saves so much time to just

have it work right the first time.

: 1054

01:07:09,318 --> 01:07:11,148

That, that it's incredibly valuable.

: 1055

01:07:11,253 --> 01:07:13,758

Corey Rubadue: Yeah, and we, I mean,

we take some of that, a lot of that

: 1056

01:07:13,758 --> 01:07:15,294

guessing outta the equation, right?

: 1057

01:07:15,294 --> 01:07:20,784

that poly camm scan comes in and we

in fovea, um, I mean, I can show this.

: 1058

01:07:21,314 --> 01:07:22,604

here's, the chair, right?

: 1059

01:07:22,604 --> 01:07:26,894

So there's that chair coming

in from, from blender.

: 1060

01:07:26,954 --> 01:07:28,064

Uh, I can preview it.

: 1061

01:07:28,274 --> 01:07:28,574

Um.

: 1062

01:07:30,130 --> 01:07:32,350

That's not a slouch of a model either.

: 1063

01:07:32,350 --> 01:07:38,350

I didn't do any decimation or, uh,

optimization of that geometry at all.

: 1064

01:07:38,350 --> 01:07:43,360

So it, it's, you know, there's blanket

there, it's been deformed in, in the

: 1065

01:07:43,540 --> 01:07:46,810

application, the pillow, the wrinkles,

all that, all that defamation.

: 1066

01:07:46,810 --> 01:07:50,590

I mean, it comes at a

cost polygon triangles.

: 1067

01:07:50,590 --> 01:07:54,452

Um, but again, we can decimate

that, um, to some degree.

: 1068

01:07:54,512 --> 01:08:00,632

Uh, not, you know, we don't have

amazing, uh, decimation tools, um, that

: 1069

01:08:00,632 --> 01:08:02,492

can completely rebuild all the meshes.

: 1070

01:08:02,492 --> 01:08:06,302

But, um, but yeah, this

is, that's a chair.

: 1071

01:08:07,232 --> 01:08:07,522

Evan Troxel: Nice.

: 1072

01:08:07,772 --> 01:08:10,292

Corey Rubadue: And again, this is

ready to just drag and drop and

: 1073

01:08:11,792 --> 01:08:12,302

Rhino

: 1074

01:08:12,452 --> 01:08:12,721

Randall Stevens: So in

: 1075

01:08:12,721 --> 01:08:17,011

that amount of time, right, you went

from, you know, maybe one format, native

: 1076

01:08:17,011 --> 01:08:24,362

format that was completely unavailable to

you, to, I can now drop this into any of

: 1077

01:08:24,542 --> 01:08:26,252

the applications that I'm used to using.

: 1078

01:08:26,252 --> 01:08:26,312

So

: 1079

01:08:27,607 --> 01:08:27,797

Corey Rubadue: Yep.

: 1080

01:08:27,807 --> 01:08:30,482

Evan Troxel: when, when you're

publishing it from Blender in this

: 1081

01:08:30,482 --> 01:08:36,002

case and you ingest it, fovea, fovea

is making all those other versions

: 1082

01:08:36,006 --> 01:08:37,772

of the, the, that you showed earlier.

: 1083

01:08:37,772 --> 01:08:43,502

So the GLTF and the the RPC and,

and all those different versions.

: 1084

01:08:43,502 --> 01:08:44,551

Randall Stevens: all that, all that

: 1085

01:08:44,551 --> 01:08:45,152

concurrently,

: 1086

01:08:45,307 --> 01:08:47,551

Evan Troxel: then that's all, all

that work is done and then all I

: 1087

01:08:47,551 --> 01:08:50,582

have to do is pick what, where I

want to send it to and it's, it's

: 1088

01:08:50,672 --> 01:08:51,752

Randall Stevens: All 13 of those,

: 1089

01:08:51,872 --> 01:08:54,182

all 13 of those formats

are available immediately.

: 1090

01:08:54,301 --> 01:08:54,482

Yeah.

: 1091

01:08:54,662 --> 01:08:55,022

Evan Troxel: Okay,

: 1092

01:08:55,697 --> 01:08:55,937

Corey Rubadue: Yep.

: 1093

01:08:56,042 --> 01:08:56,402

Evan Troxel: cool.

: 1094

01:08:56,987 --> 01:09:00,287

Corey Rubadue: So again, if you've

got a blender guide who's great at

: 1095

01:09:00,292 --> 01:09:06,069

modeling and you, your, let's say

visualization is on Unreal Engine.

: 1096

01:09:06,770 --> 01:09:10,100

You can use our RPC plugin, an

Unreal engine, or you can import

: 1097

01:09:10,100 --> 01:09:13,581

in a data Smith file, which is part

of the output as an example, right?

: 1098

01:09:14,371 --> 01:09:14,946

Randall Stevens: That's very

: 1099

01:09:15,140 --> 01:09:18,231

Corey Rubadue: So actually if

I, if I filter down through

: 1100

01:09:18,231 --> 01:09:25,341

here, I by our application, so

application Unreal engine and chair,

: 1101

01:09:26,691 --> 01:09:30,890

um, you know, you can see I've

got a handful of file formats

: 1102

01:09:30,890 --> 01:09:31,791

that are pulled down here.

: 1103

01:09:32,451 --> 01:09:35,961

I've got, uh, FBXO, B, JRPC,

and DA, you Data Smith.

: 1104

01:09:35,961 --> 01:09:38,390

Those are all the file types

that you can import into.

: 1105

01:09:39,411 --> 01:09:41,600

Unreal Engine, outta the box, right?

: 1106

01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:47,571

Um, so we give you the, the, we open

up, we open up and give you choices.

: 1107

01:09:47,906 --> 01:09:50,666

if you wanna bring in an FBX, by

all means, if that's your workflow

: 1108

01:09:50,671 --> 01:09:53,456

and that's the way you prefer to

work, then grab the FBX and go

: 1109

01:09:54,297 --> 01:09:54,567

Randall Stevens: Well, I know

: 1110

01:09:54,567 --> 01:09:57,567

there's a ton more that we can get

into on this, but I think we're

: 1111

01:09:57,567 --> 01:10:03,717

going to, uh, plan on kind of putting

a wrap on this session and then.

: 1112

01:10:04,347 --> 01:10:08,187

Follow up with maybe a deeper dive,

Corey, assuming that you're willing

: 1113

01:10:08,187 --> 01:10:12,627

to, uh, kind of get into a little

bit of the behind the scenes of some

: 1114

01:10:12,632 --> 01:10:15,267

of the, um, some of the decisions.

: 1115

01:10:15,297 --> 01:10:19,647

You know, you started out saying that

even, even where this ended up was

: 1116

01:10:19,647 --> 01:10:24,507

not where you originally, you know,

envisioned and, and the path kind of took,

: 1117

01:10:24,537 --> 01:10:26,637

took you there in, in different ways.

: 1118

01:10:26,637 --> 01:10:31,107

So, uh, maybe we can end up, um, you know,

coming back to this in another session

: 1119

01:10:31,107 --> 01:10:34,497

and digging in a little deeper about what

some of those decision processes were.

: 1120

01:10:35,209 --> 01:10:36,784

Corey Rubadue: Absolutely my pleasure.

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