Ken Kennady Consultant and Educator

Artwork for podcast Beans Without Boundaries

Episode 12 • 25th October 2023 • Beans Without Boundaries • Elena Mahmood

Elena: M OMG. How are you? Seems like you had a rough day.

, which is like a new car, to: 2021

Elena: We couldn't that's fucking sketchy.

, ah, at the dealership since: 1230

Elena: Oh my god. And you wanted to still come on the show tonight?

Kennady: Yes. I need something good, you know what I mean?

Elena: Well, hopefully I give you quality entertainment.

Kennady: I'm sure you will. I'm sure you will. Uh, I love coffee. I like talking about coffee. And I've been talking about cars all day, which is not my passion.

Elena: If there's one thing I don't know shit about, it's definitely cars.

Kennady: I know enough to have, ah, those conversations without getting screwed over. And that's the only reason that I know what I do is because I refuse to be screwed over in a dealership.

Elena: Valid.

Kennady: Even husband just took a backseat to everything today while I was haggling them about everything.

Elena: Hopefully it got worked out then.

Kennady: Yeah, it's fine. Car, um, is fixed. My issue was that I was like, this car is only two and a half years old.

Elena: Shouldn't be having these problems.

Kennady: Yeah. So this has already happened. It has two open recalls. It, um, shakes when it gets up to anything over 50. I want a new car and I don't want to pay more than what I'm paying now. And I want something that is reliable. Yeah. And um, they just kept trying to get me either in a worse vehicle or, um, in a nicer vehicle that was like twice the cost. And I'm like, no. They were very upset with me because I wasn't giving into their sales tactics. But it's been a day of haggling and frustration and honestly, talking about coffee is like, um, a relief. So I'm happy to be here. I'm sorry. Thank you for listening.

Elena: Yeah, that's fine. No, I'm here. This is sort of like a therapy podcast. I feel like it's slowly turning into which I love because I just love hearing people's backstories interview yesterday and hey.

Kennady: Thanks for the therapy session. And he's like, same.

Elena: It's just what it I was going to say, I think a lot of coffee always is like, it's a good blank field to just either catch up, dish out, or emotionally release.

Kennady: Yeah, absolutely. Um, uh, my husband had never watched anything Anthony Bourdain before. And Anthony Bourdain like, I'm watching it now and I'm like, love him. Formed so much of who I am.

Elena: Yeah.

Kennady: And I think I realized it. And I don't mean this callously, but he's one of the only celebrity deaths that still just like, oh, it hurts. So I was like, we're going to watch it. We're going to watch. No reservations. Starting from the beginning, he is a cultural icon. M. He changed the way that we talk about food and look at food. And I, um, think he opened the eyes to the American public about how to travel in a respectful manner and how to experience other cultures. I did fall in line in some way with his romanticized version of world, but anyways, watching it, I was just like, um, I think I still kind of buy into the coffee shop and coffee world of the that people weren't plugged in, it was open. Everyone's talking. You're pseudo intellectuals sitting around drinking espresso and talking about Voltaire. I, uh, think it's natural that it's led to this generation. It being about therapy, or it being more of a therapy because that's what we need now, um, because we've seen some shit. How much am I allowed to cuss.

Elena: Here, by the way? It's a sailorship. Go for it.

Kennady: Okay, fantastic. I a spawn of a sailor.

Elena: Yeah, you and me both. Trust me. I wanted the show to definitely just be, uh, like, uh, a free for all, for people to just come in, just let shit loose and just be able to talk. Originally, the idea was to talk more on controversial subjects, which at the end of the podcast, we usually do have a segment for. But for the most part, it's just like unsolicited information and just kind of letting shit fly.

Kennady: Just make this one the Anthony Bourdain fandom, if you want.

Elena: Here's the thing, I'm not even mad at that. I remember when Roadrunner came out first and I was like, uh and I was with somebody at the time who's also a sous chef. So I was very much involved in a lot of the and I worked behind the scenes, so I worked on the line and on Dish. So, like, watching that show, it resonated with me on a whole different level. We watched no Reservations from the beginning to the top, and I was just like, yeah. I think a lot of his ethics and his morals, uh, and just being someone of color and having a lot of that food being a huge part of our culture, it's nice to see that kind of open up for other people. And the way he went about it, it's inspired me to go to places that I never thought I'd want to go. I'm on the same page. I've always loved his philosophy on life and the approach to, um, inviting yourself into other people's heritage and cultures and understanding the value of how that lies with cuisine.

Kennady: Yeah, absolutely. That's like so much of those were his ethos. Um, my husband, I was like, every episode, it's not just about food. He goes and he does things that are like there are episodes. I don't know if it was no Reservations or if it was another one of, uh, because he had a few. Um, but there was one where cameras weren't allowed. It was a dinner party in somebody's home. And he was show you this because it's illegal. But my little brain was like and I may have just wanted this to be the case, but context clues led me to believe that it was human. And I'm just like this. I just I don't know. I just adore the the man and his ability to find his way into, um like, he's not outside of the mainstream, you know, like, we just we're on season one, like episode five or six or know, he went to Malaysia and took, like, um, three hour drive and then a three hour boat ride or like, a six hour boat ride into this indigenous park and is, like, with them. And one of my favorite things that.

Elena: He would do, too, is that he made it a job to do the work. It wasn't like, let me just sit here and eat these people's food and talk about how great it is. He's like, so how do I fish for this at the bottom of the sea with no equipment, a spear, and then lack of good communication guidance. And I'm like, wild.

Kennady: Yeah. And did so with, um, a sense of integrity and humbleness that so many people don't have. He went into it being like, I'm a lanky fucking New Yorker who smokes 200 cigarettes a day. I have no business doing this shit. Uh, I have more alcohol in my system than I have outdoorsmen. We're going to rough this one out, but by all means, show me. He participated in any way that he could. Um, and he definitely straddled the line of, uh, like and I don't think that there was much appropriation at all. But I think that he really knew how to straddle that line of, like, um, participating in somebody's culture while.

Elena: I think yeah, sorry. Go ahead. No, you're good. I was just going to piggyback off that and say a lot of it came from the fact that his aura in itself was always so authentic. He never put on a persona. He never tried to be this white savior complex. He never tried to act like he could teach these people things that could change the way they create their food. He always came with it. And even if it was stuff that was so almost medieval, like a practice in the cuisine of art, and him having such an extensive practice in different ways, he always just participated in a way where it was non negotiable, he's like, whatever you need, I'm here. I'll try my best to just be a part of the crew, part of the ship, part of the crew. Yeah. I find it funny, though, a lot of this just talk about Anthony Bourdain and the earnestness and the humbleness and this strong sense of integrity with staying to the root of whatever they're creating. Despite traveling to so many different countries, a lot of this can actually kind of reflect in the coffee world.

Kennady: Yeah, absolutely. As I've been watching the show, I have changed one of my questions know, you asked to get to know people, which is, if you could have one dinner with anybody, dead or alive, who would it be? Mhm I would choose Anthony Bourdain. And not because I think have a fantastic meal, but because, like envisioned the conversation about how to be a participant in an industry that is so exploitative to so many people, um, and how to be a white American participating in this. Um, because I just think that so much knowledge mhm him so much, um, emotional knowledge went with him. Um, but, yeah, I agree. I think that there's a level of, um, appropriation that happens and exploitation that happens mhm throughout coffee. And the US. Is not exempt to that. Right. Like, we see baristas and production staff, tons of people get underpaid top to bottom.

Elena: Right.

Kennady: But we definitely have a little more privilege here, because we're the ones who set the price.

Elena: Yeah, I think, um, this show, when I started, I had absolutely no real knowledge on the production industry, um, and I didn't know what line I was tackling on this subject to. So the more the guests have come and really educated me, the more I'm feeling like there is so much, um, level of control that we have that predates so many years of colonialization and suppression of a lot of these coffee producing countries, um, that haven't really progressed forward, and we still kind of benefit from their products. And the biggest thing that I always enjoyed about tying back to Anthony Bourdain was the story behind everything, um, the story behind the people, the story behind the culture being, um, a person who has a lot of emphasis on storytelling in her own culture, like, I only ever want to hear people's. So, like, the more people have come on the show and told me their stories and their ties towards coffee and the culture and the practice and what it's meant for them and their people and the lineage and the just it's validating. Um, and it also helps me tackle different areas of my life, like how Anthony Bourdain would have. Yeah. I feel like, in general, I'm trying my best to kind of have people that are extremely diverse in different fields of the areas in coffee, along with ethnic backgrounds and, um, identity backgrounds, to be able to come and basically tell their ties and their stories.

Kennady: Yeah, I think let's rewind, because, man, I just went first into Anthony Bourdain, right?

Elena: Um, yeah, we both did, though.

Kennady: Yeah, you let me I didn't stop.

Elena: You, is the difference.

Kennady: Um sorry. I'm in my makeshift soon to be office that is, like, there's boxes still packed, and I'm in a chair using my knees as a desk. It's fantastic. So excuse that improvisation. Um uh, okay. Couple of questions.

Elena: Yeah, go for it.

Kennady: Service industry.

Elena: I have worked various positions in the service industry. Okay.

Kennady: Primarily back to House, front and back, front and back and middle. What's middle?

Elena: Expo.

Kennady: Got it.

Elena: Yeah. So I started off as hostess. Then I did serving and then I did bartending. And then, um, I worked on the line. I worked on Dish, and then I did Expo as my last service industry.

Kennady: Job, I did Expo for a while, but, like, Front of House Expo, um, there was Kitchen Expo, front of House Expo and Front of House or sorry, kitchen Expo was Chef. Right. So it was like chef and then mhm front of House Expo. Um, I did that for a long time. I really liked it. I'm good at organization. Um, oh.

Elena: I loved doing Expo because I loved yelling at servers.

Kennady: Motherfuckers, literally.

Elena: Chef kind of let me run the show, too. So he was more like keeping shit in line during service versus actually being behind.

Kennady: Yeah. Random. Uh, question. This is a step. Again, I'm sorry. I'm going to do this a few times because I love talking to industry people. What does the bear do to you when you watch it? Does it validate you or does it traumatize you?

Elena: Is there a bear that I'm missing?

Kennady: What?

Elena: Uh, is this Bear the Bear the show.

Kennady: Have you seen it?

Elena: No.

Kennady: Oh, fuck. Okay.

Elena: I'm guessing this is a show about the service industry.

Kennady: Girl.

Elena: Yeah.

Kennady: Pronouns.

Elena: Yeah.

Kennady: What are your pronouns?

Elena: Whatever you want to call me. Okay.

Kennady: All right. I'm sorry.

Elena: No, you're good.

Kennady: I'm sorry to assume minor. Um, she they, so either or whatever. I, um, don't care as long as not he him.

Elena: No, I get it. Yeah.

Kennady: Anything but, man. Um, uh, okay.

Elena: Yes.

Kennady: The bear service industry and service industry folks, it does one of two things to them. It's either extremely traumatizing because it's like did you ever watch Uncut Gems?

Elena: Uncut Gems?

Kennady: Yeah. Uncut gems. Um um, okay. It has that fast, uh, paced.

Elena: Oh, no. Uncut gems in general. Anxiety inducing.

Kennady: Yes. Okay. So it's that ah, but service industry. So it's what your server nightmares are in a show. Um, but at first, I was really worried that it was romanticizing. The Angry Chef, um, because that's a thing. And I've had literal plates of food thrown at my face during service by chefs. I've been yelled at, I've been called names. Um, it's rough out there. Right. And I don't like the romanticization of that. And I think that it's extremely, um, prevalent. Right. It happens in coffee, too. Roasters, like, old school roasters can be the same way. Um, but, yeah, the Bear shows you that. But I think it does a really beautiful way of exposing it, like, showing it to you in a very Crude way that does not romanticize it. Um, and although you do see this person gaining success, um, it kind of shows you all the different facets.

Elena: Right.

Kennady: It shows you all his his actions affect his employees and the people around him. And um, for me, I felt it was very validating because I'm watching with my husband who's never worked in the service industry. Service industry?

Elena: Yeah.

Kennady: And so being able to be like yes. That feeling that you have that tightness in your chest mhm. That's the tightness that servers and back of house folks live with all day, every day.

Elena: I feel like if I was to watch that show, I'd probably just be screaming at the TV the whole time.

Kennady: Probably.

Elena: I'd be like, oh my God, that's exactly what the fuck it's like.

Kennady: Because it is very accurate. They do a very good job of getting to the core of the service industry, which is, ah, a hard thing to do. I feel like there's so many nuances. Yeah.

Elena: I think the service industry is a soap opera of itself. No matter what area of the industry you work too. Right. It's not the same.

Kennady: I did work a double. Right. And it's like one double was a vibe. One part of the double was a vibe and then the other part of the shift was a totally different vibe. You're dealing with different personalities, drama, uh, people. It's like the only job not going to say the only one of the very few jobs that every single day is 100% unexpected.

Elena: Yeah.

Kennady: There's no way to predict a single thing that's going to happen other than.

Elena: I will say this where you're going to show up. I will say this too. I think that what's not talked about too. I don't know if it's just the fact that my age is coming through here, but uh, I've worked in the service industry for so many years, met so many amazing and horrible people. And then I realized when I stopped working in the service industry how much that amount of high level stress and multitasking has burnt me the fuck out. The level of capability I have anymore is nonexistent. I don't have that energy capacity to be doing what I was doing when I was younger. Um, and it's affected a lot of what kind of drives me for job searching after that.

Kennady: Absolutely. I think when you step away from it and I'm in the same position once you step away from it after you do it for so long and you only get a server nightmare like once a month, which I still have them about once a month, I still get them. Um, you realize, oh, it doesn't have to be like this. How separated you are, like that separation when you're in it. But then you pull yourself out and it's really insane how much stress you undergo.

Elena: I think it's honestly trauma. I think that it doesn't have to be in a way where it's threatening your livelihood, depending on your work situation. Some people have those kind of dynamics, sadly, in their work industries. But I think in general, it's a different form of trauma on the body. It's not a conscious thing. I think it's subconscious that comes out over periods of time. But I think a lot of the time it's a trauma response. And, um, because it's so normalized in society that service industries have it hard and people that work, and nobody's trying.

Kennady: To make it better because it's like, oh, that's the way it is. And then I'll add on top of that, I've had a lot of substance abuse abuse issues.

Elena: That's so normal in the service industry too. Exactly. Cigarettes, drugs, alcohol. On the shift, off the shift.

Kennady: I'm sobering up. People are like, oh, for a couple of weeks for a detox. I'm like, no, I have a problem. And they're like, Bitch drinking with you last week. What are you talking about? It's like, yeah, you don't notice because you're probably also an alcoholic.

Elena: It's a toxic, almost like serpent. I feel like half the time you want to better yourself, and then you can't because no one else outside of you who is that environment wants to do it themselves either. So you kind of lose hope because that discouragement is not helping you. And then it's a vicious cycle. You keep having these moments. You'll catch yourself in the abuse too. Be like, I don't want to fucking be doing this. Why am I doing this? And then you step away. And then you're like, okay, cool. I think I'm doing okay. But then people are going to draw you back rather than try to uplift you. I think in general, there are some good people in the service industry where I, uh, worked in an Italian restaurant at one point, serving, and I met my best friend of all time through that, and we had our toxic runs. But to this point now, that friendship has been solidified over ten years. There are some people you'll find that you'll trauma bond and then that's it. And then you have an established friendship. There are some people that you're like, I never want to see this person again in my life. It's like such a dynamic where it's like high highs and low lows. There's no mediums, and if the mediums are there, you're seeking that thrill of the high highs again. So it's just like this constant whirlpool of fuckery. And it's just exhausting. And I think that outside of the restaurant industry, this also applies to working in coffee. I've seen, uh, really similar instances working in restaurants, like food restaurants versus working just in cafes where those lines still can be pretty blurred. I think half the time the relationships you make with baristas are, uh, a lot more toxic sometimes than servers. Because servers, it's on the clock and then it's off the clock. But baristas, it's like an emotional connection you continuously make because all you have is coffee. You don't have this level of the toxicity of dealing with high different family environments or dealing with one on ones with customers. It's like a different like you're mostly surrounded by the baristas versus the people you're serving.

Kennady: Right. You're behind the counter. Yeah.

Elena: Um.

Kennady: So it's been a while since I've worked front of house in the coffee world. Right. I've been kind of behind the scenes for some time. Um, but I can definitely agree with that. And I don't think there's a single barista who I have maintained, um, with, um, and when we were there, when we were together, working together and stuff, it was like a pretty inseparable bond. But, um, I noticed too, that, um, I was harassed more by customers as a barista than I was as a server, which is an unexpected thing, I think, um, because there's not alcohol involved. Right, right. Uh, that's not to say I haven't been harassed as a server because that has happened plenty of times. Um, but I mean, we're talking like stalker level stuff because I think there's this romanticization I keep tripping up on that word, romanticization.

Elena: C's and Z's together are not fun to pronounce for the English language.

Kennady: Yeah, no, it was not meant for my tongue. Um, all that to say, I met my husband because I was his barista. So much room to stop.

Elena: I will piggyback off of what you're saying and I think I can kind of guess as to why that is the case. The thing about food is the food aspect. Being a server, you're not actually making it, you're delivering it. You're delivering an experience as a server, as a barista. You're creating the product and you're delivering it. It's an intimate process. And then you're basically following the guideline of the customer. What is it that you would like? I could do that for you. Let me perform that act. Let me talk to you while I perform that act. I deliver you the act. I'll see you tomorrow. And then it's a continuous process. You're building a continuously intimate relationship with a customer. So it can be a little bit more like the customer comes back in and they have something to look forward to. Where's my barista? Why isn't my barista here? Because they're not going to give me that experience if I talk to somebody else. And then they have this slight dependency on you. And that, uh, in itself is a burden I've had when I worked as a barista. People. It's a compliment. And then it's also stifling at the same time where people are like, well, I want Elena to make my drink. Why isn't Elena here? And I'm like, well, everyone else is going to make it the same fucking.

Kennady: Also, I don't make the so.

Elena: Right. But that would be my guess as to why a lot of baristas feel like this sense of like, it's a creepy thing where especially the age dependent thing factor in it. Um, at what age is it okay to be doing that? At what age is it not okay? At what point is it just like, you need to just fall in line that, um, this isn't 90 day fiance, we're not testing the waters. And then you'll put in a contract and we're set.

Kennady: Yeah, I hadn't really thought about it like that before, but you're absolutely right that you are giving this person something that you, um, made as well. And there are less barriers, um, where if somebody asks for something like, they want that steak well done, I can't be like, I'm sorry, Chef said that that's going to compromise the integrity of the dish.

Elena: That's not I've actually worked at restaurants that did that, too.

Kennady: Yeah, I love that same.

Elena: I'm like, don't eat a fucking steak. Well, m done, bro.

Kennady: Yeah, no, we're not going to put ketchup on that. Sorry. That would compromise the integrity of the dish. Um, that was like, my favorite way. And it's like, sometimes I hate I realize I'm a cog in the gentrification machine, the pretension machine. It's like, I get it. But at the same time, it's just like.

Elena: Let me ask you this then, okay? If you feel that way towards food, how would you feel that way towards coffee?

Kennady: Well.

Elena: I feel like, especially with somebody who has a very vast background working in it, I'm actually really curious to know, um, how that would be applied to the coffee world.

Kennady: Well, I think coffee shops are often joked to be like, the first indicators of a neighborhood being gentrified. And it's true, right? You go into a neighborhood that's lower income, and that first hip little coffee shop pops, uh, up, and that's when things kind of start blowing up, right? That's when all, uh, the hipsters start moving in and raising property value. And they bring businesses in that attract that, which then attracts people who are willing to, ah, buy properties, level them, put up new houses. And coffee directly contributes to not just colonization at origin, but also, um, gentrification here in the States. Um, and this is not something that I'm super proud to admit, but I think, um, the only way I found to deal with it is to a work back of house. Not that that's contributing less, um, but it does feel as though you have a little more, um, ability to give dignity to the products that were worked so hard to bring to you, right? Like, as a roaster. It's like so many people put their hands on this product, I would like to treat it with the equal amount of respect that I believe it deserves. Um, and I also feel like I get to have those blinders a little bit. And like I said, this is not something I'm super proud to admit. But working back of house, it's easier to separate yourself from how you're doing that. Mhm, um, how you're a part of an industry that's doing that, not that we're directly responsible, right? Like, I'm just a person who's trying to make it month to month. Um, it's the business owner's decision to buy property in an area that they shouldn't be buying property in at that rate. That's not a decision I get to make, right? Um, I'm just a person trying to also make money. Um, not to always put the weight of gentrification on those who are also struggling to just make it is my point. Um, just how we can't be sitting here talking shit to consumers about recycling and taking on the entire burden of what ultimately is these huge corporations job. They should be the ones better, but whatever. Anyways, you get what I'm saying. Um, coffee is tough, and I've had to deal with that a lot, um, because I've worked for places where I don't have a say in what green is being bought and what deals, what contracts are being written for that green coffee. Actually, uh, in most places, I haven't had much of a say because I've never been Director of Coffee, I've never been Green Buyer, neither of those titles I've ever held have I worked with those people and helped them in Sourcing, sure. Um, but I've never personally had that responsibility. So, A, I'm incapable of saying, um, why I would do it one way. And it's hard to say that when you're not actually in that person's position. I do believe that I would stick to my ethics because I tend to be pretty strong in those and I stand by things pretty strongly. Um, but, um, it does hurt to know that the company you're working for is like nickel and diming your importers and your farmers. Right? Mhm, what do you do about that? There's very little that you can do, it feels like. Um, and I'd actually be super interested in hearing what other people in the industry who aren't green buyers or directors of Coffee like what they're doing personally, other than just trying to bring as much dignity to the product as possible. And that's just how, uh, I've seen my role. Um, and how can I impact, uh, my immediate team members, right? How can I make sure the quality of life of the people that I manage or the people who I work with are in a good place because there's only so much reach can have, right? But, um, it does hurt. It hurts to see, it hurts to know that there's so little a singular person can do. Um, I try to be as involved as I can with people doing big things, uh, on the board of Directors for Color of Coffee Collective, um, which helps bring education to, um, people who otherwise wouldn't have access to coffee education, um, by offering free classes, super affordable, um, entry fees to expos and. Stuff. And being, um, able to help in that definitely makes me feel better.

Elena: I will say, too, um, for somebody who is sort of like the Swiss army knife of the place that I work. Um, so I do literally everything, um, from sourcing and buying and building those relationships to roasting and being a barista also.

Kennady: Oh, my gosh, you're doing that now?

Elena: Yeah.

Kennady: Um, they paying you okay. You can't stay on this podcast. They probably listen to it, don't they?

Elena: Yeah, but, um, it's okay. I don't really fucking care. I don't really think the owner of the shop even listens to my podcast. Um, but it's a really weird position to be in, because I think it gets even more complicated. It gets so much more complicated when you're able to do green buying, because then it's like what you're going to do is going to impact more people versus if you're just roasting and profiling and working mostly with baristas. You're only impacting the community you have in front of you versus what I'm doing would be impacting the people who it actually matters to impact. No offense, um, because people here are going to benefit from whatever we decide to bring into the states. We always do.

Kennady: And that's the thing, too, right? You're bringing the coffee in, you're going to sell it. Maybe you sit on it. That happens. There's dead stock that sits in every roaster I've ever worked for. But that's a really good point that I hadn't thought about that. It's going to benefit people on this end regardless.

Elena: The last person who was on the episode before you, her name is Andrea. Uh, and she was talking about how roasters she gave really good pointers, actually, that I would recommend to listen to the episode. And a lot of the things from what she could recommend roasters to do when working with producers if they have a chance or what would be best to honor the product and the practices. And a lot of it came down to negotiating terms, which is mostly a green coffee buying thing, but a lot of the time, it's just like doing your best to do profiling and doing sample roasting and doing the cupping, grading it and delivering that information more readily for the importers. Or if you're direct trade, that gives those people direct feedback to what they're working with, how they can improve, giving them pointers, being able to show how you've roasted things and informing the importers. And if they're communicative with, of course, whoever sources for you, if they're communicative with the producers directly, that does a lot for the people in origin, because a lot of the time, they just don't have the information. They don't have the way of communicating with us roasters. They don't have the way of communicating with the buyers, especially if they're going through a larger importer.

Kennady: Right.

Elena: Um, but half the time when I'm doing it from the front of the house perspective. The most that I can do is, one, I created this podcast, and then two, um, when I'm working with general people and I work in the midwest, mind you, which they're not, like, that big on the third wave stuff, right? We're talking dark roasts and pumps of everything. Cream, whipped cream, sugars, sugar, sugars. It's a lot harder to kind of combat that mentality when they're just like, well, I don't give a shit about any of this. And I'm like, you got to realize, this isn't just a product for us to enjoy. This is stuff that you learn the story, you start to want to be a part of it. Like, it started off that way. We recruited somebody recently who was an association of somebody else who worked with us and then slowly just started showing up. The more we started educating, the more I started showing just, like, roasting in general, because I don't gatekeep roasting. I think that is a fucking bullshit thing in itself. Is this gatekeep community bullshit that the production industry does. Bailey and I talked about this in the first episode, actually.

Kennady: Uh, I don't think I have anything to add to that other than, yes, you disagree? I disagree. And I will say that with color of coffee, we've put on several free roasting class just like, come in. We've got roasters lined up, ready to tell you how they do it.

Elena: And it's also like, it's not that complicated. It's really not complicated. Even if you just production roast, if you're not profile roasting, that's a little bit more experiments. But like production roast, you follow the curve. You go, that's it. Um, it's really not that. Yeah. Uh, for the most part, I work on a us roaster corps, so I'm kind of by it, but I'm kind of not. But for the most part, it's pretty consistent. I've been roasting for over a year and a half, two years now, so it's just like, whatever. But a lot of that new person is just like it was really heartwarming because had was training him today, and he's just like, I'm going to watch YouTube stuff about coffee stuff, because I'm actually excited. And I'm just like, see, it starts off this way. You got to genuinely have this interest to show people, and I think that passion is infectious. I think, for the most part, if you care about what you do and you care about wanting people to genuinely understand and know it, and you don't come from a lot of what Anthony bourdain taught me. You don't come from this level of pretentiousness, this level of intimidation. You bring it to a level where it's, uh, easily digestible. Most of the people will gladly partake in wanting to learn more. I had a customer, and I explained honey process, one sample of the facet of that exists in the coffee production world, and then we just start talking more about different processes. It starts off small. So the most that you can do, I think, is just pass that information on to baristas. Try to inspire the baristas. As soon as you inspire baristas, I feel like that's the most that they can do is that they start to love what they do despite the chaos that is working as a barista. They pass that shit on to their customers. And I think that's where it starts. That would be my advice. Well, what do I know?

Kennady: Absolutely. Um, I guess a little bit of background here. Um, the thing that I've found because I've worked in a lot of facets in coffee and the thing that I found that I'm the most passionate about and I feel like I have, um, it's the most fulfilling to me. And not just because of personal reasons, which it is personally, but it also satisfies this thing in me that needs to know that I'm positively affecting other people. Right. That's fulfilling for me. Fulfilling is not just like accomplishing a hard day's work, which is also very fulfilling, but, um, doing production when you're bagging coffee and you can see how much you see the amount that you did in a day. And it's so satisfying. The most satisfying thing for me um is being able to curate these events, to find other people who are like minded in their, um, willingness to share knowledge and bring them together and to have people come in at uh, any tier at, uh, Color of Coffee? Pretty much. Um, we kind of talk about ourselves as like we're non coffee people talking about coffee. I'm one of the only coffee people on the team at Color of Coffee. Um, and they kind of brought me on for that reason. But it's because we want our reach to be consumers. We want our reach to be baristas and professionals and, uh, people who are looking to open shops and don't know where to start or open groceries and don't know where to start. We want people to come in, um, without as many obstacles. But we also want them to be met with people who are passionate and people who are kind and try to be as, ah equitable as possible in the positions that they are in. Right. It's hard to find people like that, um, when you're in an industry that's dominated by a lot of gatekeeping. But in my time here, I've found them bits and pieces just like you're finding people and being able to bring these people in and, uh, give them the vocabulary and the words and the things to operate in a space, um, that they feel isn't for them. Right. I feel like coffee doesn't feel like it's for anybody until you just force yourself into it. Right. It's a pretty closed off industry, uh, in terms of knowledge and everything.

Elena: Uh, I actually find that really interesting because I've had that mostly with how do I word this when I speak to producers and when I speak to people, mostly from those coffee origins, I have absolutely no problem integrating. And I don't know what it is. I think it's just different. But when I try to integrate with people who are from SCA or um, sorry, um, this is a controversial podcast. I don't give a shit.

Kennady: Um, no, I thought about literally branding my entire consulting and education business as just, like, fuck. The.

Elena: When I when I talk to a lot of, like, the more it gets into the semantics that is SCA and the protocols in the systems and the grading and all this other shit when it becomes so scrutinized and you're just ripping apart a whole practice. It's not warm anymore. It's not a warm industry to be in. You're stripping a lot of the essence that is humanity that comes from the process of coffee. It is a relationship building essence of a being. It's a thing. There are people, indigenous people from Colombia that look at coffee, and it's the mother nature, it's born from her. And then there are people you speak and it's like, these are things that are building communities. They're uplifting people, they're giving opportunity, they're contributing. And then you go back to it's not specialty. Yeah, it's just like, a lot of the time, I try my best to not make coffee just a product. And I think it's like working with, um, it's really interesting working with business owners, um, when it comes to being in a coffee shop environment, how much they just don't give a fuck.

Kennady: Yeah, same for, um, I worked for a roaster cafe company. I will not name the one that I worked for because it is very well known. Um, and you can only burn so many bridges before you're out of a job for good.

Elena: I'm not judging you for not saying.

Kennady: It, um, but this company, they were not coffee people. They made, um, basically a retirement's worth of money by the age of 40, and thought, let's open a cafe, had multimillion dollar build outs, two cafes, and a roastery within a couple of years.

Elena: Jesus.

Kennady: Uh, which is unheard of, right. Coffee industry people are like, home roasting for 20 years, and then maybe they get into a small grocery store. That's like the kind of thing we're used to hearing about. But man, they just dove into the scene. The people who were doing their marketing also did the marketing for mint cafe. There was money involved. You all, um, is that to say that their coffee is not great? No, it is good coffee. Right? The coffee is good. But they put themselves through every single SCA course in the very beginning. And so they had that kind of mentality right. And so, um, um, their gimmick was that some portion of the money spent on a bag went towards a different charity. And, um, I think it was this thing to, like, truthfully, I don't even think it was to offset guilt. I think it was truly virtue signaling, um, because when you're seeing behind the scenes, like, what's happening, and the exploitation of even their own workers, um, it's just, at the end of the day, business owners are business owners. Right. And, um, to be a successful business owner in the United States and much of the world is to be a capitalist. Right. And I've even personally experienced people who I would say I believe were very anti capitalists, very recently, through owning a business, become very capitalist. And, uh, it's tough because I'm not a business owner. I have a sole proprietorship. I wouldn't call that I don't manage employees or anything like that. Um, I don't hand out W, two S. I don't have to track stuff like that. But it's just so hard to understand how doing that can make a person so immune to the the plight of humanity and sustainable living across the board. It's tough. Uh, and it's really hard working so closely with business owners. Like you said, at the end of the day, it's like, what's the ROI? I don't know. I just would really like to not work 60 hours this week.

Elena: Right. Yeah. I think god, it's toxic.

Kennady: That's messy.

Elena: Yeah. I'm just like, that's all I got. I don't know how to even divulge into that. But it's just.

Kennady: It'S really hard, and I'm sorry. One thought here. Um, people are always asking me I say this, like, humble, brag people are always asking me, a lot of people close to me, when they find me in a tough, um, work position, because they see the merits that I have and the experience that I have. People who aren't in the coffee industry right, right. Um, they're like, well, why don't you just start your own business? Why don't you just this? And it's like, I really have zero interest in participating in the economy that I would have to participate in. And that's just what it comes down to. It's not that I'm incapable of running a roastery. I've done it. It's not that I'm incapable of, uh, building out a production facility. I could do that. I don't want to participate in the economy as it is, because I think that there are very few people who can successfully run companies without selling their souls. In a way.

Elena: Yeah, I feel like the villain behind that is the original, um, story of how I think shops start that's, like, the purest form it's from, whether they make it or they don't, is when the transformation of this heroine either turns into the antagonist or the protagonist. So, um, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to I think it would change your relationship to your viewing of coffee. I think it would change your relationship with working with people. I think it would change your relationship with how you interact with coffee. Shops, businesses, who you contribute and spend money with. I think it's just people. I think they like the idea of, like, you can be an entrepreneur. You can do anything. You can make a brand. You can start a legacy. Yeah. No one talks about everything that goes into it, who you got to work with, how much you have to sacrifice, compromise, hire people that you probably won't fucking like. And then if you're lucky, you have a good business partnership. But half the time that's not the case.

Kennady: Yeah, well, half the time I'd save them more than that.

Elena: And it's just like, it becomes a toxicity of like, how much is your life your life anymore? Your life is your job. Your job is your world. Your world is no longer. You can't compartmentalize nothing.

Kennady: Right?

Elena: And I'm saying this from somebody who doesn't own a business.

Kennady: M right.

Elena: But I'm actually owning businesses.

Kennady: Let's just full disclaimer at the beginning of this podcast. Everything there is about owning businesses and the psyches of those who own business.

Elena: What made you want to start what you do now?

Kennady: Well, it was, uh, just like everything in life up to this point, um, unfortunately was not like a planned thing. And we're being honest here. And so I feel the need to be honest. And it's not something that I think is normal or traditional for people to do. But I'm not successful right now in what I'm doing. I did just start. Um, but education is what's most important to me. And I found that through um, so I was working as a roaster for Atlas Coffee Club. And um, my husband and I were actively trying to get pregnant. And I did get pregnant. And so I went to, um, my boss and I was basically like, hey, I'm pregnant. I'm not going to be able to roast like this forever. Uh, at the time, I was roasting on 270 kilo machines.

Elena: Jesus.

Kennady: So I was just like a glorified green mover at that point. But I'm forklifting. I'm climbing pallet racks. I'm doing all kinds of strenuous physical work. Yeah, it is. And it's like, at nine months pregnant, I can't be like, getting OSHA violations. It's just not the best look. Um, so basically, um, told him immediately was like, can we start a plan for what we're going to do? Uh, there was a customer service team. This is a subscription company, so they don't sell retail or wholesale. Right. It's just to people who are part of this club. Um, and um, so customer service team exists. People have moved from roasting to the customer service team before. And I figured, I'm giving you far enough advance, right. Uh, and basically they were just like, well, there are no positions open, so you can just work until you don't want to anymore. And then, um, we'll just let you go. Or you can quit. And then when you come back, if there's, like, production job open or something. We'll let you have it.

Elena: That's fucking crazy. Are you fucking kidding me?

Kennady: Yeah. I worked for this company for years at this point, too. It was pretty bizarre. So I was like, okay, so my options are wait until I'm showing and then try to find another job. Who the fuck wants to hire a pregnant person? Okay. Um, my best option in my head was like, well, then I need to leave now.

Elena: Right.

Kennady: So that find another job, right?

Elena: Yeah.

Kennady: This is my the this is the best option. Um, so that's what I did. Um, and then I had a miscarriage, and it really tore me apart. And I was having a really hard time with all of it, um, because I was very much wanted and I had gone through a lot of I had never wanted to be a parent. I had sworn off kids. Never, ever. I had this huge thing happen to me that was, like, such a revelation. So then when I decided to start trying, and then I did get so it was just very heartbreaking, as every miscarriage is. Every child loss in any way is just absolutely devastating, um, or infertility. It's a messy subject. Um, but it was very heartbreaking. And, um, I got pregnant again almost immediately, which most people were like, oh, my God, that's unheard of. That's amazing. And it is, don't get me wrong. Um, but I did not have enough time to process at all. So I was like, immediately, even though me personally, I'm not a spiritual or religious person, um, there was still this feeling, this weird feeling of, like, I haven't mourned this soul, and now I have another one. And it felt like I couldn't love this new soul because I loved the other one so much, and it was gone. And now I have to be afraid that I'm going to also lose this one. And it was a tough situation. I'm so sorry that I'm getting into this. This is therapy. You are absolutely right. This is like a therapy session. Um, anyways, um, I needed money, and because I was like, well, we're having a kid. I've got to figure something else out. Um, so I actually bypassed my boss at my previous job as a roaster. Bypassed him. I went straight to the CEO and was like, I don't know if you're aware of how things are being conducted, but this is what happened to me. And he gave me a job on the customer service, so I got the job, um, and maybe upset a few people in doing that, but I got to work with this fantastic, beautiful customer service team who knew almost nothing about coffee and realized that they had also been actively trying to communicate with the roasting team. I was unaware of it because there was a gate there. Um, the one who also wouldn't let me have a job as a pregnant person. Um, but that gate was there. And so I was like, well, I'm on your team now, so you all are all going to know everything there is to know. And so I literally started building out a curriculum just on my spare time, because I was like, these people are so lovely. Why the hell are all of their genuine and honest attempts to learn more about coffee being just totally shut down? It's so unfair. They are the ones dealing with the customers. They are the ones who are supposed to be, uh, showing our customers why they should be excited for these things. They are the ones who have the most impact on how much customers are willing to pay for coffee and, um, how they view the stories, right? And we're just denying them any joy in coffee whatsoever. We are just burdening them with customer service jobs without any passion involved. So I built out, um, an education curriculum, and through that, really found a groove. And I was like, I think I might be good at this. I think I enjoy this. And everyone was like, I've learned more from you than any cupping we've been invited to. Because every time we come to a cupping, people are like, don't you taste the white grape and milk chocolate? And they're like, no, we don't taste anything. It tastes like coffee. What are you talking about? Give us some information beforehand. Um, so it was cool. It was cool to do that. And then I got offered a job, um, with a co roasting space, um, as the person to build out their education program. And, uh, I thoroughly enjoyed that. Um, it was honestly the best and shortest six months of my life. I was offered the position when my son was four months. And, uh, it was really scary, right? Because I was leaving this really cozy customer service job insurance, uh, work from home. They were really flexible about hours for me. They had pretty much let me work nights and weekends when baby was asleep. I mean, just, I had a lot of autonomy. Um, and I left it because I was like, I'm going to follow this passion, right? And I feel like I got to reach so many people in the very short time that I was there. Um, and I feel like I'm still kind of doing that. But when they decided to cut the education program, aka me, uh, it's nicer to say education program, than just they let go of me. But that was basically it was like they didn't want to invest in education anymore. They wanted to invest in other things for the business, which is understandable, again, capitalism at the end of the day when you're a business owner, business decisions. Um, but, uh, I'm still getting to do that. I met Color of Coffee because of this. And so I'm getting to do the same thing through Color of coffee. And that's how I found that was just because seeing that ah, and I'm sure you've experienced this, um, the first time that you give somebody a cup of coffee that they don't put cream and sugar in, that you convince them to try without cream and sugar. And there's this like, twinkle. Oh, man. What a beautiful fucking thing that is. It's such a special moment.

Elena: I think, honestly, I think a lot of the reason why m I'll go a little philosophical on you. I think a lot of where that de infatuation with that, uh, twinkle in the eye comes from is like, living life as an adult is really fucking hard. There's so many things that you have to deal with on a constant basis and the simplicity from enjoying things is such a youthful and childlike spirit that it's something that we lose as adults. So when we're able to find that and actually physically see it or physically viscerally express it, it's something that you try and hang on to. You try and, uh, constantly create scenarios where you'll see that on more and more of an occasion. And I could see why you'd love doing that because I've led educating classes. Like I said, I'm a Sasarmi knife for these people.

Kennady: Yeah.

Elena: Um, and I've had a lot of those same interactions and same instances where people are like, they're thoroughly oohed and OD from what you can kind of experience. And just coffee, they're like, I had.

Kennady: No idea coffee was and to be able to do that on so many levels, too, to be able to give somebody the confidence to go into a cupping. Mhm, that's my shit. I have a sensory course that I run now and it's five classes. And from my experience, it's the things that I've learned in all different positions I've been in that were those moments for me. So each class is kind of, um, an expansion on that moment. The moment that you learn about processing and the different processes and the way that they taste, right? The moment that you learn about defects, the moment that you learn about the different, ah, acids and florals and that you're not detecting them so much by taste all the time, but by olfactory, um, and by the interaction that they have with your saliva. So just all of these times, all of these moments that I've had that personally, I kind of built this sensory class out to be that, um, and I found that it resonates with people in the same way they get to have that AHA, moment. Mhm, every single one. I have one class that's like, one, um, big portion of it is chocolate. Um, and I also really love giving things to people that are disgusting. Like, the defects class is my absolute favorite.

Elena: You put a whole thing full of Quakers and you're, like, drink it.

Kennady: Literally an entire cup of Quakers. Oh, man.

Elena: Just like I remember my first experience doing that, too.

Kennady: I was like, oh, yeah. Like, oh, this tastes like popcorn kernels.

Elena: And fried chicken tastes like cardboard boxes. This is interesting.

Kennady: I love it. Uh, yeah, no, I love doing stuff like that. But the chocolates class is fun because you're talking about mouthfeel when you're talking about chocolate. Right. When you talk about chocolate in coffee, roast informs chocolate. But, uh, there's still two separate things. And I love being able to give people different types of chocolate and then putting coffees that aren't necessarily of different roasts. Maybe they are. Maybe it's a scattered roast, like, got some dark, then some light, but for the most part, keeping it pretty consistent. Um, and seeing them go from, like, I do not know how to pick up certain chocolate flavors in this to tasting the chocolate, experiencing the mouthfeel, processing that information, and then going to a cupping and being like, that's milk chocolate. Yeah, it is, dude. That's milk chocolate. Yeah. If you wanted to say white chocolate, it could also be white chocolate. But this is what people are talking about. That dark chocolate. It's because it's tannic on your mouth. It's not sticking around. It's kind of, like, bitter. And teaching people how to experience coffee in a way that's not just like, it tastes like this. It doesn't it doesn't taste like that. It feels like that. It smells like this.

Elena: Yeah, exactly. I think, uh, to tie that all together, wow, this is such a synchronic. Like, so much synchronicity, um, to tie that together. I think that, honestly, working in the food industry has only exponentially elevated my level of being able to communicate those things to people. I've also worked in the wine industry, which also fucking helped when it came down to cuppings. I was like, oh, this is mainly, like a wine tasting. But a lot of the time, it's just, like, the best way to tie things with coffee, um, generally, is to just incorporate food. I think it's just to break shit down that you would be able to basically coexist the two together so that people can have direct correlations. Like you were talking about. Chocolate is not just a tasting note. Like, sometimes you can taste chocolate, but half the time, it's body or describing things. In fruits. You can use it for sweetness or acidity. There's just, like, where it falls on.

Kennady: The class that I do acids. Um, so I do, like, the actual organic acids kit, right, which is part of the queue, which I think is bullshit, because that's not the way that we experience acid. Right. The way that we, as humans experience acid is with food. That's how we understand acid, is through food and beverage. Right? So I pull out, um, fruits and drinks like kombucha and Coca Cola and Ollipop. Have you ever had Ollipop?

Elena: That shit slaps. What is it?

Kennady: It's like this probiotic soda drink that sounds like. Some healthy bullshit, but you drink it, and it's like drinking, like, a carbonated strawberry milkshake.

Elena: That sounds delicious.

Kennady: It's so fucking good. Uh, but it is a great example of lactic acid because it's thin, it has no cream in it whatsoever. It's 100% vegan. But because of, um, the probiotics that they put in there, they have that lactic acid effect on the palate, right? So I bring all of these things to the table, and I'm like, this is a lemon. This is citric acid, mhm. You can try the citric acid at that Q level dilution, but at the end of the day, this is how you experience citric acid. Being able to tell the difference between lime and lemon is way more important or, like, lemon and grape is way more important than being able to tell the difference between citric and tartaric on a chopping table. You know what I mean? We're not listing tartaric acid as one of the tasty notes. We're saying white grape.

Elena: We're not putting that shit on the bag either.

Kennady: Yeah, exactly. So it's like, why are we expecting people to know these things? Um, so that's what I love doing, is I love giving people real, ah, life examples of something. And then also up against M, because, again, my whole brand, I kind of wanted it to be low key, the SCA type of mentality. That's like a big platform that I stand on. Um, but, yeah, I mean, you're absolutely right. Having food knowledge is super helpful, um, in this, because that's the way that we as humans, if you're into coffee, chances are you probably give a shit about food. Right? And I'm not saying that you're dining out. Like, I eat chicken nuggies way too often. Grilled dinner happens way too often. Uh, but I still appreciate good food. And when I'm making it myself, I'm conscious of the fats and the acids and the salts and the aroma.

Elena: It's sort of like a door that opens and never closes. As soon as you're aware of it, you're like, oh, yeah, that's like this kind of acidity and this kind of sweetness, and then it's like your mind is forever. As soon as something touches it, it's like the neurons fire, and she's like, uh, don't you remember all of these really technical things that you're able to associate with different things because you've trained yourself? Because that's essentially what you're doing. You're teaching people to train, to use those specific keys, uh, and awareness. Sensory driven things. People also don't understand the importance of smell with taste.

Kennady: Yeah.

Elena: Take away sense. Yeah. Like what you were talking about.

Kennady: Yeah. Uh, florals. When I do florals, um, I do the florals as just, like regular tea, light dilutions, and then also with a little bit of sugar, um, to kind of show the difference between the olfactory sensation of, ah, florals mhm, which is typically what you find in coffee. If you get rose that's going to come from more of, like, you slurp, you swallow, and then you breathe out through your nose. That's where that rose, that black tea, those delicate notes are going to be coming from. But if you add a little bit of sugar into it, that's what people are expecting, right? They're expecting it to be like lavender syrup. But if you've ever had lavender just diluted without any sugar, it's not good. It's really fucking gross. Um, that's another one of my favorite things to give people, is they smell it and they're like, oh, lavender. And then they drink. Oh, my God. Yes. I want to see one person bar from this class. Um, I promise I won't torture any listeners too much if you come to one of my classes. Um, but yeah, uh, it informs so much, like, teaching people even just the olfactory thing to drink. And then just like, right after you swallow, breathe out through your nose, you're getting all of it on your entire because your palate is in here, too. Your palate is not just your tongue. I'm using for the listeners who can't see my face right now. I'm pointing at my sinuses. But, uh, it's in your nose. When you breathe out, you're expanding that palate, and you're reaching parts of it.

Elena: That what's also, once you learn these skills and you apply them to actual food, the experience when you had it before versus when you finally have that knowledge now is like, you enjoy food a lot more, or you either really don't enjoy food, depending on what it is. But I mean, when I was able to, I kind of did it backwards. So I started in food first, so when I was able to learn a lot about food and the cuisine, and thankfully learn through different, um, amazing chefs, and then go through and learn about wine and learn about that and how it all correlates, this full encompassed developed palate, essentially, you develop a palate, and it's, like, amazing. Once you're able to kind of have an experience every time you eat or the experience every time you drink something, you appreciate it even more.

Kennady: So yeah, absolutely. Or, um, there was one time that, uh, my husband and I went out to eat, and, um, it was a vegan restaurant. They had clearly used too much liquid smoke in their mac and cheese. You've ever had too much liquid smoke?

Elena: I have.

Kennady: Yeah. It's real gross. But I was so intrigued by how awful it was that I literally couldn't even the hated joke. The joke that every server hates. Like, oh, I bet you hated that, huh? When there's, like, an empty plate or like, oh, it was disgusting. That genuinely happened. I finished it because I had to understand why I hated it. Ate all of it, just in this, like it's so bad. I need to understand it. It was so weird. Um, and I think that's like an interesting part of palate development, too, right? You try something and you're like, one more time, just for the palate.

Elena: Yeah. I don't know what it is. I don't know if it's just like a human thing where it's like we're intrigued by this sense of morbidity, or the curiosity over trumps the actual experience. As in, like, did that really just happen? Let me re experience it again. I'll put myself through misery just to confirm that that experience was real.

Kennady: Um, I took, ah, a sociology class, uh, uh, my freshman year of high school. So clearly, um, I'm a sociology expert, but the teacher, uh, did the most insane thing for a small town high school, and he literally brought a Taser to class and let us TASE ourselves. And the whole thing was like, everyone who did it, you bet your ass they did it a second time.

Elena: That's wild.

Kennady: Yeah. Every single person who did it, did it twice.

Elena: Did you?

Kennady: Oh, yeah.

Elena: You did. Twice?

Kennady: Yeah.

Elena: Was it as bad as the first time?

Kennady: It's both my boobs.

Elena: Why?

Kennady: Because the taser is stronger, um, where there's more water content. So it's electricity, man. I was like, well, so I did one, and then I did the other. Um, but one, uh, guy did his Down Unders and pissed himself. And that was great. But year after year, dude, they never stopped.

Elena: This fucking what the fuck? That's fucking hilarious.

Kennady: No, that's great. Um, but it was basically that it's like humans have to there's there's this, um I mean, you know, there there's some old school, like, philosophers out there who have been pretty debunked. And I wouldn't say that, like, am quite the nihilist I used to be. Um, Anthony Bourdain would be incredibly disappointed, uh, in me. But I've got a little more optimism in my heart. These m uh, you know, when you hear Freud and Nietzsche talk about know, it's just like there's a lot of truth to it that we as humans, we kind of have to understand it. It's like when you're depressed or when you're sad, sometimes you just want to sit in your little suck hole, which that sounds disgusting, but you want to marinate in your pity.

Elena: I think that there's also, like, this episode so all over the place, and I love it. Uh, I want to talk about philosophy and shit. I'm like, oh.

Kennady: Um.

Elena: I think a lot of that also comes down to this sense of I don't know, I think every person is different. But how much willpower do you have to sit in the suffering, fully understand it, and then overcome it? There's like this sense of a cycle that people love to experience is like I'll martyr myself for an experience to either fully understand someone else's position or fully understand the emotions that I can actually say that I've been able to overcome it. And I don't know, I'm not as eloquent about the subject right now.

Kennady: Um, but I hear you, and I totally understand. There's this need in us to it's, like, really dark. I'm going to try and find a better position in this tiny ass little room.

Elena: You mean you don't want to sit in your room and brood about nihilism and talk about.

Kennady: My brain? Would you like to live in it? You can have it for, like, a couple of days. It's dark in here.

Elena: Well, if you see my background, it's pretty dismal and dark.

Kennady: Uh, okay. Let me see if I can find some box of shit that I have not, um, unpacked yet to set this computer on.

Elena: I will also give this an opportunity to segue into the segment I had discussed earlier. So on the show, we talk about things. And obviously, you can bring up controversial things throughout the course of the episode. But this is the point where we're going to talk about hot takes. So essentially, that gives you an opportunity to vocalize your hot take on the industry that could be or not, um, controversial. So what would you consider your hot take?

Kennady: Let's see. Um, this one is coffee industry and philosophy related. So here's one. I think that basic bitches are the hedonists of society and they've got it fucking figured out.

Elena: You better divulge into that.

Kennady: I want people to stop talking shit about specifically women who love pumpkin Spice lates and uggs and scarves because they found a thing, they liked the thing. And they refuse to let anyone tell them that the simple joys that they get to have from those things somehow diminish their intelligence or their humanity. I just feel like let people enjoy.

Elena: The things they like.

Kennady: Yeah, just like, let the people enjoy what they like. I, unfortunately, was cursed with this need to always seem like I am, um, smart and, uh, just above everything. I feel like there are a lot of, um, female identifying people who were told, um, that girly is wrong. Everybody's told that, right. Um, and they bought that.

Elena: They believed it.

Kennady: And so they didn't let themselves indulge in those things that are just simple joys in life.

Elena: I think femininity, in general, is just a very hard subject for women identifying people. I just think understanding femininity and breaking that down is going to be obviously different for everybody. But it's the fact that society has put this idea that this is okay and that this isn't okay. This is what it is, and that this isn't what it is. And I think in general, um, you either really fucking hate pumpkin Spice or you really fucking love it. And I think that half the time, people genuinely enjoy it and then always have to deny the fact, yeah, I found out that I love pumpkin matchas. Fucking delicious.

Kennady: That's some basic bitch shit, and I'm here for it.

scarf, a bedazzled belt from: 2010

Kennady: I'm going to buy you a pair of Uggs. Send it straight to your door. I don't know where you live.

Elena: Please put an MCR CD in there too, while you're at it. I don't know if that's like just like that's the time frame. That time frame. I'm stuck in that time frame.

Kennady: Um, yeah, I think that, uh, we've over intellectualized hedonism into this. Um, it's got to be so niche for it to be a hedonist act, right? Like, uh, kinky sex. And, uh, there's so much weird pretension out there about just enjoying shit. And I don't know, the world's ending. It's literally on fire. Palestinian children are being killed by the thousands right now. Can we just enjoy a drink? Can we have that? Can we have that one thing? And, um, the spiritual enlightenment of the I feel like it goes in line with bimbofication. Like, women who are secretly incredibly fucking intelligent but do not care if they are perceived as Paris Hilton genius. They're geniuses. They're geniuses. And I was one of them. That was like, I'm not, like, a dumb bitch. And when I'm saying something like that, I'm thinking, I'm comparing myself to these bimbos of our culture. And now I'm like, I want to play dumb.

Elena: I find it funny. We're on opposite spectrums here. I feel like I grew up with the idea that women shouldn't be educated because oppression in the Arabic culture. Um, and now the older that I'm getting, the more I'm like, the worry. I'm falling in love with academia. It's like, disgusting unattractive. And, um, like, I find myself annotating Charles Dickens for fun. And I'm like, this is so much fun. I feel like I love it. And then I can't go in. And then I leave my house and I'm like, does anyone want to talk about this? Anyone want to talk about it in.

Kennady: The same place here, though? We've experienced the we're just on different.

s of the street. It is almost: 09:00

Kennady: Um, I just hear my husband giving my baby a bath. Oh, yeah. We're almost eight, so and I've realized.

Elena: That we have been talking about so many different things. I have thoroughly enjoyed talking to you.

Kennady: I have too.

Elena: Like, you're a fucking awesome person. You're so genuine and you're so heartfelt. And I love your attitude. I love the fact you love Anthony Bourdain. I love the fact that we can trauma bond and kind of just bond in general over similar occurrences. And my love and respect has exponentially grown from this past subject we were just talking about. And it's just like, I keep finding my people that I love and they don't live here.

Kennady: Doesn't that just, like, fucking frustrate me the other day? And it went so well because it was like, not even a job interview. The dude. And I I was just like, why you got to be in Seattle, dude.

Elena: I don't know. No, some of my favorite people just don't they don't live here. And it's like, damn, it sucks that you live in Texas.

Kennady: Yeah, tell me about it. Fucking sucks that I live in Texas.

Elena: Well, was there anything, um what were you going to say, ADHD? But was there anything else you'd like to say before we log off?

Kennady: Um, well, first and foremost, thank you. I'm actually not 100% sure how you found me or how I came up on your radar. Um, so I am curious about that. Number two, I'm actively looking for a job right now. Like a full time job, because this baby eats more than I do. Not exaggerating. It's a very real he put down two bowls of chili yesterday, and I was like, damn.

Elena: What's his name?

Kennady: Bellamy.

Elena: That's a cool name. Sounds Victorian as fuck. And I fuck with it.

Kennady: I was like, I want it to be like Anne Rice.

Elena: Yeah, it's giving that fire.

Kennady: That's what I was going for.

Elena: Not a big fan of those books.

Kennady: But I haven't read the books. You can put that in the hot takes.

Elena: Uh, love that.

Kennady: The new interview with a vampire, though. The show m. I've watched it. You did?

Elena: Yeah. But I've also read the book.

Kennady: Okay. Yeah.

Elena: I didn't.

Kennady: I just watched it. And, like, a former Emo girl whose first introduction to porn was gay Men. So watching that was just like, pikachu. Shock meme. Why wasn't this on TV when I was a kid?

Elena: We had to use our imaginations.

Kennady: Yeah, man. Anime. Just read a lot of anime. That was the way around it then. Vampire anime. Lots of homo erotic shit there. I hope that makes it into the podcast.

Elena: Do you know how much shit hasn't made sense in this whole fucking episode? We're fine here. You should, uh, wait till you hear the next episode that comes out. Talk about going off the, um.

Kennady: Um, to back to the things.

Elena: Um, back to hungry children that needs to be fed.

Kennady: Yes. Um, hungry children who need to be fed. Um, but yeah, I'm actively looking for a job. So if anybody in the Austin, Texas area is looking for someone who does a whole lot of things, needs some consulting work, wants to take some classes, needs a roaster. Needs someone to help them set up their production facility. Let your girl know, because I am for hire and I have a very hungry baby.

Elena: Um, use the baby as leverage.

Kennady: Yeah, man. He's cute too. I take him places. He's been in a bunch of my classes with me almost every event. It was just my little sidekick for the longest time. There's, like, footage of me talking to people at an event. And I'm, like, breastfeeding him while talking.

Elena: I love that.

Kennady: Uh, yeah, he's been around, man. I have a little toy espresso machine for him. It's his favorite toy. He doesn't know what he's doing. It just makes good noises.

Elena: Cute. Well, um, to answer the first question, the way I scout people is actually a really interesting process. I get this quite often. It's like, how did you find me? And I'm like, extensive digging. Extensive digging. I'm just like I spend a lot of time because I do all the recruiting and the introductions and doing the social media and everything. And obviously my producer is great. Um, but yeah, I saw that you had post. I read your first post and I was like, damn, she's got a lot of fucking experience doing shit. I bet she's got a lot of shit to say. And then when I scrolled down the comments, I saw Bailey. And I was like, yeah, I loved talking to Bailey, too. And I was just like, yeah, she's probably really cool. So I just reached out. And half the time I always just throw the ball in the court and see if anyone catches it. And I was just like, oh, cool. It makes me happy when people want to be on the so yeah, I'm.

Kennady: So happy to be here. I'm so happy to have this, you know, to tie it all back. I think that this is what coffee is supposed to be. Is it's supposed to be? I had, as a little budding liberal in a tiny conservative West Texas town, one coffee shop. And it is where I met people who opened my eyes to things out. Gay people in a small town like that. Very seldom met them there. Um, any other liberals, philosophically minded. It was a gathering of the intellectuals. Were we actually that smart? Probably not. But it really felt like it. And it became a place where important conversations were had. Um, and there weren't computers. And we were talking about things that mattered, that were bigger than us. And that is what coffee has always been for me. So even if this went off the rails, this is so 100% the shit. Um, I'm down for. Like, if I were to ever open a coffee shop, which will never happen, um, it would be a place where hopefully things like this would happen, where young kids could come in and see themselves reflected and learn about things that feel taboo, uh, to talk about at home, or are too criticized on the Internet. A place where there's like books on the table and if you don't have anything to do, fuck it. Just pick up one of those. Yeah, absolutely.

Elena: Yeah. I feel like coffee shops have always made that for me as well. When I was in really bad situations, it was like a meeting spot to kind of have this almost like quiet sanctuary of confidentiality too, sometimes. Um, but I am going to log off now.

Kennady: Yeah.

Elena: Um, I love talking to you. I would love to meet you one day.

Kennady: Yeah, we'll get there.

Elena: Somewhere down the line, but, um, don't be a stranger. You are welcome to talk to me anytime. I really enjoy talking to you.

Kennady: And same. And also watch The Bear and share with me the books that you read.

Elena: I also have stuff off the rail that I want to talk to you just personally about that you were talking about in the episode. I'm like, oh, this is going to be a good person to talk to about things. It's about kids. It was about that.

Kennady: Yeah. Got it. That's a big one. That has to be off the air.

Elena: Yeah. No. Uh HM. Um, okay, well, I'm going to log off. It was great talking to you. I can't wait to talk to you soon. Um, and I hope you have a great rest of your evening.

Kennady: You too. And I hope that, uh, you can be like the basic bitches and find just a little ounce of peace tonight.

Elena: Thank you.

Kennady: Maybe have a really nice cup of tea and watch a garbage show or.

Elena: My my comfort show is Buffy.

Kennady: Oh, that's a good one. It's a good comfort show. Watch some Anthony Bourdain. I don't know if that's a comfort show for you, but it's bittersweet. Yeah, I guess so. It is hard to watch. It does kind of hurt every time. Turns on.

Elena: Okay, we're going to keep talking if I don't cut this shit off now because yeah, this is a scenario where I could probably talk to you for hours and not get bored.

Kennady: Sorry. I talked to a one year old all day. So, like, human interaction human interaction is just like, really uh okay. All right. You have a wonderful night. I wish you peace, uh, and love. And I'm sending as much as I possibly can to you, um, not just because of the times that we're in, but also just because you're a rad, uh, fucking person. You're doing cool things and you deserve it. Listeners, if you could see her face right now.

Elena: I'm very progressive, but thank you so much. I'm, um, glad that I will say this just like a disclaimer and that I am going to walk off. Um, I'm genuinely happy that your second pregnancy went well and that your son is healthy and that you're doing okay.

Kennady: Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. One year. Fucking crazy, man.

Elena: Okay, well, have a good night.

Kennady: I'll talk to you soon.

listed the March of Return on: 2016

Kennady: I know it's touchy, but it's my I've spent, uh, a little too much time crying about a lot of the.

Elena: Shit that's I don't think you understand. That the position that I have been in, um, with this too. I'm not Palestinian. Okay? I'm Iraqi. So it's like, obviously this isn't affecting my people specifically, but autobs are autobs. We are all part of the same we're cut from the same cloth, just different colors, different places. And it's like, uh, dude, this shit's wrecking me. Like, my mental state is fucking down, and I feel this helplessness that I can't contribute, and the voices of reason are nonexistent. And it's just like, who do you trust in these situations? You can't trust literally anybody, but yeah. I've also been really highly emotional and sensitive towards what's happening over in Palestine and Israel.

Kennady: I'm so sorry. It's there aren't words.

Elena: Yeah.

Kennady: And I'm not, you know, born and raised in America right. The country that is helping to fuel this war. Right, right. And it's just there is a helplessness. HM. Ah. All of the Palestinians are in an open air prison. Right. And the air is the place of attack. And it's just to see the rhetoric that Hamas committed an atrocity a terrorist attack, and it's like, have you been looking at any live footage yet? Numbers for decades?

Elena: Right. I mean, like, honestly, I have done so much extensive research on the subject, on just the beginning of the state of Israel, and I have found so much frustration with trying to educate people on this subject. And a lot of it, it's just like people are unaware of the power of what white colonialism has done, uh, on the Western society, let alone what it's doing towards the Palestinian people. Like, it's ethnic cleansing. They're in an apartheid.

Kennady: They're literally killing off.

Elena: We're sending the largest warship over to assist the state of Israel. Hamas is not composed of a military defense. It's a group of rebellions. It's a rebellious group of people from Palestine. You're going to infiltrate, like, 80 to 90 people with a whole fucking army. That's not an agenda. That's just to control the situation.

Kennady: They're doing exactly what they're intending to do. Right. Just to demolish more than just the 80 or 90 rebellion of the rebellion. Their intention is to and you look back at, uh, World War II, and Israel was so much created, um, as a Germans being like, oh, we're going to help the Jewish people and give them this and let them have a lot of, uh, German and European descendants are afraid, uh, of being anti Semitic by criticizing Israel. Because it was like, but look at what happened here. And it's like, we can talk about atrocities without that having a role in this.

Elena: Right.

Kennady: Um, ethnic cleansing. Apartheid is what it is. You don't have to have these qualifying factors to, um, politics shouldn't be emotional.

Elena: They're a law. There are things in place that make politicians tend, uh, to be very cold hearted. But when you're able to apply politics in a way where it's helpful understanding international law and how that applies to people, and how it's being manipulated, how it's being abused, like, these people are denied the ability to resist. They're denied the ability to have human rights. These are against so many things that run in politics in the. State of, like, Palestine itself. They don't have a defense mechanism. They don't have a defense.

Kennady: Fucking leave either. It's not like, well, you don't like it here, then leave.

Elena: They can't infiltrate Israel. They don't have Israeli passports. Like, they can't even enter a part of their own land.

Kennady: And then Egypt is trying right?

Elena: And then they're like, we're going to bomb you if you decide to leave. Um, we're going to bomb Egypt. I'm like, bro. Meanwhile, Israel is getting backed up by all these different nations to come and assist this blatant Holocaust. Reincarnation. There have been people who have been victims of the Holocaust that have spoke against what we're doing to Palestine. There are Jewish people that are against the state of Israel.

Kennady: Uh, which goes to show that this has nothing to do with anti Semitism.

Elena: Nope.

Kennady: Because this comes down to racism and.

Elena: That'S kind of fucking white supremacy.

Kennady: That's what it is. It has nothing to do with anti Semitism or know I mean, we can say that it's religious, but it's can I think religion is a well, here's.

Elena: The thing about Palestine, too. Before State of Israel became what they are, um, the oppressors, basically, Palestine consisted of Christians, Muslims, and Jews coexisting. So it's not the fact that they aren't capable of coexisting. They were Jewish Palestinian people. However, Zionism has changed Judaism. Jewish people are just as frustrated with Zionism because that's not what the Torah is preaching. So it's just, like, conflicts of interest there's conflicts of church and state should never fucking exist. It's also really funny because when I have these discussions with people who are pro Israel, and their only defense against Israel has to do with the attack on Hamas, uh, yeah, that's all I'm like. You have no backed evidence of what Israel has put on the Palestinian people. You have no evidence as to counter. You need to counteract. You can't just be like, Well, I'm not going to trust people who are killing children. I'm like, there's literally no evidence. Israel stated that there was no evidence that they were beheading children. There was no evidence that they were raping people.

Kennady: That has yet to be shown.

Elena: But there are past Zionists past Zionist soldiers who have been documented with the apathy of laughing and claiming they have killed caged people and raped children and done all this. But that's not being showcased, right? Like, the narrative isn't being showcased where Israel's this villain. It's just Arabs are barbaric people, and we're condemned to be these horrible people because media wants to paint us this picture, everything. And from being Iraqi and having needless, endless suffrage and war that is written in my people and my culture, there's only so much you can do when you're backed up in a corner. And I love to give this example of what would America do with the politics that have lived since Trump? Imagine we would go into riots. We have gone into riots. We have brought up arms. We have had people of radical opposition threaten other people.

Kennady: Founding principles were those of escaping extremism in religion. Like, we came here as a rebellious.

Elena: Act, and then we oppressed a whole other nation. We annihilated a whole other nation, and then we decided to gift them reservations. I love the idea that if native Americans decided we're going to revolt and we're going to basically do get the fuck out of our country, and you have to pick a side, I'm like, I'm fucking siding with the native Americans here. Yeah, I'm a guest on your land. Take what you want.

Kennady: I live on native lands.

Elena: This is not literally, this isn't my home. And I'm not going to treat it like I own this place. You fucking kidding me? See, I grew up in a house where, um, my grandfather was an Iraqi diplomat for the Iraqi embassy before Saddam Hussein got into reign. So I've grown up in politics my whole life.

Kennady: And you've seen this from, um well.

Elena: He was my grandfather, so I wasn't like, alive then. But he has taught me many things when he was alive about war and about politics and about the importance of being educated. And I think that's also where this love of education comes from. But, um, the way politics in general I read this book, that's a really good book and great timing for what's happening in Palestine. It's called, um fuck, I'm not going to remember it something about amongst the universe or something. Basically it's telling of a lot of Palestine when it was going through the Nekbah, which is that the first before this, the first real type of ethnic cleansing that was happening, and the bombs and the massacres, and it was told in the perspective of a woman basically just trying to survive. And, um, politics, because the Arabic world has only ever known war and has ever known violence, that's all that there is to talk about. Then that's passed down. Generational trauma is real, folks. It's passed down into generations. A lot of Arabic culture, it is segregated in terms of who speaks on who. Hopefully that's changing, I don't know. But the men, all they would do is gather around, have coffee, treats tea, and talk politics. That's a part of our culture. Because that's all we had to do when we were trying to survive. We tried to understand, we tried to know motives. We tried to know the next step. So I grew up in this idea of no politics, understand what's being talked about, contribute.

Kennady: And also just a, like, will I ever be safe? Yeah, well, this I mean, uh, generational trauma is absolutely real. And I was actually going to ask you about how that's affected you because oh, god, your entire lineage be so oppressed, um, from so many. There's not a singular group, religious group, or country or nation. Literally the entire world has, uh, oppressed the Arabic people. And I can't imagine trying to navigate a world that has tried to consistently annihilate your culture and your families and your beliefs.

Elena: Well, I can tell you right now, uh, this isn't a bragging thing, but there was a poll that was taken of the angriest countries in the world. Iraq is up on there. I think we're one or two Arabs are angry. We're done, we're just angry. We're frustrated. And it's like we have pride in our people, we have pride in our culture and our heritage. We have contributed so much to civilization and it's like the narrative is wrong here. I have watched generations of people of different Arabic ethnic backgrounds refuse to talk about things out of not wanting to re experience. Like, I don't think my grandfather ever talked about Saddam and what it did to him because he left when he became in reign. And I don't know how much about Iraq's history you really do know, but has, uh, Saddam, when he became president, went on the committed, he went to his people and he was like, you're either for me and you're not, and if you aren't, I will kill you. And essentially, he didn't stay. He was one of the few people that was able to get away and leave. And it's like, um, it's really interesting when you talk about Iraqi politics too, but that's a whole different thing. But um, watching what's happening in Palestine is just I'm not paying attention to the Western news, I'm paying attention to what I can find. That these people, when they have accessibility to Internet, are able to upload and be like, this is what's happening. Are you aware that this is happening? And it's explicit, it's horribly graphic, the things that you are able to see, but everything is exposed now. We're living in an era where you cannot have a narrative be one way. You have evidence now. There's evidence now that you can see these children covered in ash, unconscious.

Kennady: They're burned all these things and blown to pieces.

Elena: And it's there, it's in front of you. And they're mourning these things vocally, physically. You can see dead animals scattered across rubbish from the fucking bombs. And then you go and you see Israel and it's fine, the casualty rates are not that bad. And then you see these people in Israel, the Palestinians left, being displaced from generations of homes, their shit's being thrown on the streets. And the people who are being displaced having nowhere to go, and the people that are moving in, laughing at them, apathetic to them, those are grandfathers and grandfathers, great grandfathers who have been born and raised in that home. And it's just like infuriating because it's like, can you imagine, can you imagine building a home and having the idea of your whole lineage legacy, living in that home, and then that home being just it's, it's heart wrenching. And the Palestinians aren't asking for much. They're asking for, uh, the right to leave Gaza. They're asking for the right to have their own defense, their own state. They're asking for basic things that all of us that have disestablished take for granted. And it's infuriating. When I watch videos in America, like, I watched a New York City protest about, uh, like, I don't know what to call them, so I don't want to label them, but they're people who are openly and blatantly holding up the state of Israel flag and are screaming, fuck Palestinians. Burn all the Arabs. Demolish Palestine. Flatten. It like a parking lot. And I'm like, these are people here. And I'm like.

Kennady: I'm sorry, I'm quiet.

Elena: No, I mean, like, it's just, it's frustrating, because how it just doesn't make it doesn't make sense how people can focus on just the singular. The singular attack, uh, uh, Hamas was it did huge things for the history of the revolution, for Gaza, for Palestine with bulldozing the border for the Gaza Strip. Yes, they did send missiles and they bombed innocent civilians. However, imagine 75 years of that same thing happening. The life expectancy is probably so short. The age rate for people like the average age rate is 18 in Gaza. Imagine dying at 18. That's the average rate.

Kennady: Yeah, that's, uh, what our life expectancy is. I think a big thing that is, uh, like a comparison that could easily be made is that it's know, rioting is the language of the oppressed. So we can talk about this attack by Hamas as a terrorist attempt, or we can talk about it as, uh, what it is, which is an act of defiance.

Elena: Have you also ever met an oppressor that was civil or peaceful? Talk about think about it. There was a video that resurfaced really old, like black and white, I don't know what time, and I obviously forgot the name of the Palestinian activist, but he was asked in an interview, why can't you guys be peaceful? Like, why can't you guys just have no violence? And he asked, he's like, have you ever met an oppressor who could just sit down and have a conversation to their oppressed? Yeah. And be like, so this is our solution? No, you can't just talk civilly.

Kennady: At some point, you have to respond to violence with violence. When you're backed into a corner in this way, you have to speak the language of the people who are literally murdering you and your families.

Elena: M there's also history on Palestine for an occasion where they tried to be peaceful. I don't remember what it's called. I think I want to paraphrase it and say it's the Return of the March, or March of the Return, um, where for every Friday of a whole year, year and a half, a lot of Palestinians marched against the border fence of the Gaza Strip, demanding peacefully to just break down the border. So for a whole year, and a half were just walking around it, asking and screaming and doing what we would do here for different movements. And then they were met by being murdered. So it's not like there hasn't been peaceful events that have happened for the Palestinian people.

Kennady: Attempted. That doesn't work.

Elena: I don't care what anybody has to say about the subject. You can never persuade me to ever be against the Palestinian. I've always been pro Palestine for my whole life. And I will say this so confidently, being an Iraqi person who has so much history in war and it having such a fucked political world. Palestinian people are some of the strongest, courageous, survivor mentality people I've ever met in my life. They can get through anything. They are resilient. They have the strength of their whole heritage, uh, behind them. And it's beautiful to watch that their spirit will never die. I don't care what you fucking do. You destroy a whole nation in Palestine. You got a whole nation of Palestine here. They'll rebuild that shit. It's a beautiful thing. And it's horrible what's happening.

Kennady: Well, it's sad when beauty has to come from. The first video that I saw that showed what was actually happening in Palestine was this father holding his baby and he's praying and he's talking and he's mourning, but he's not hysterical. And at first, I just thought it was a hurt baby. And then you realize, because the videos are graphic, because what's happening over there is graphic. And a lot of the translations of there's been a lot of those videos of fathers, like, holding their children, their lifeless children, and their words, the things that they are saying are not those of someone who is about to give up. And that was something that struck me because I have a one year old and a bunch of these fathers were holding one year olds, and it affected me differently than it would have prior to having a child. Not to say that.

Elena: My embarrassing children.

Kennady: It'S easy to mince words in that context. Um, but in my head, I was like, I would just be done. I would just be done. I don't know what I would do. I would be done. And this is to go off of your point of the resilience. The resilience that someone has to push forward because they believe in the justice and the liberation of their people is something that my privileged ass will probably never understand. That my first thought was, if I had to hold my lifeless baby's body, that I would probably just go to forever sleep.

Elena: Um.

Kennady: That'S a privilege, right? And, uh, a very unfair one. That it's like, it is now on the backs of the survivors to continue and try to fight for the justice.

Elena: A lot of the Arabic, um, that they're praying to is and they're sort of, like, obviously experiencing shock, but it's sort of like this state of trance of saying I my daughter, my son, my husband, my wife are being martyred for the cause. And, like, they're praying to God to help the cause. And that, uh it's sort of like this repetition that it's painful. Like, I can only imagine what that's like. But despite Gaza being in rubbles right now, there are people that are like, this will never kill us. And it's just.

Kennady: Hey, if you need a break from talking about this, I.

Elena: Hope that no, I think it's important that we are no, I think it's important to talk about it, especially because it's important that people understand why people are pro Palestine. I think in this world, everyone has an opportunity to educate themselves and figure out what side they lie on. I just think it's important that you really disconnect emotionally and look at the facts and see what's happening. And that's why it's like, uh, after everything that I've been reading about seeing and everything, and I've talked to people who are pro Israel, it doesn't matter what. But I do want to kind of close this segment because I feel like we could probably talk about this for way too long. And, um, I think at this point, um, I can only just pray for some type of progressive movement with Palestine.

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