The JudgeMental Podcast – EP 27: "If you think that's bad ..."

Hosts: Hugh & Christine

Episode Summary:

Hugh and Christine, the minds behind Judge-y, discuss judicial accountability, transparency, and the latest drama in the courts.

The episode centers on a recent motion to recuse Judge Santry in Jefferson County, sparked by her attendance at a partisan campaign event and the resulting appearance of bias.

The hosts break down the legal and ethical implications, including the judge’s defensive response, the role of the guardian ad litem, and the standards for judicial impartiality in Kentucky.

They reflect on the changing landscape of the local legal community, the influx of new attorneys, and the challenges facing both lawyers and litigants in family court.

The conversation expands to the broader issues of court appointments, the financial incentives for GALs and FOCs, and the need for reform in how children are represented in divorce cases.

Hugh and Christine share personal anecdotes about courtroom dynamics, the impact of political associations on judicial perception, and the importance of keeping the judiciary nonpartisan.

The episode wraps up with a call for listeners to submit their stories and stay tuned for updates on the Judge-y app.

Key Topics:

Motion to recuse Judge Santry: facts, reactions, and legal standards

The appearance of bias and judicial ethics

The role and compensation of GALs and FOCs in Kentucky

The evolving legal community post-pandemic

Gender dynamics and professionalism in the courtroom

The dangers of politicizing the judiciary

Calls for transparency, reform, and community engagement

Notable Quotes:

“The appearance of a conflict is enough.”

“Judges have to be impartial and nonpartisan.”

“Children do not need an hourly rate attorney in their parents’ divorce.”

“The judiciary is supposed to be non-political.”

Connect with Judgy:

Submit your stories at Judge-y.com

Follow on YouTube and Instagram: @judgingthejudges, @judge-y

Christine: @KentuckyChristine

Thank you for listening! Stay tuned for app updates and more candid conversations about the legal system.

You are listening to The Judgemental Podcast.

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Speaker 3: We're Hugh and Christine, the

Minds Behind Judgy, the revolutionary app

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that empowers you to judge the judges.

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Speaker 2: It's pastime for

judicial accountability and

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transparency within the courts.

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Speaker 3: Prepare for sharp

insights, candid critiques, and

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unshakable honesty from two lawyers

determined to save the system.

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Speaker 4: We need some justice.

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Justice, my fine justice.

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And I wanna ring, be in public.

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I wanna ring, be in public crowd.

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Yeah.

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Christine: Are not gonna

believe what I saw on Monday.

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An attorney actually had the

gall to file a motion to recuse

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Hugh: in Jefferson County.

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Christine: Yep.

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In Shelley's courtroom, Judge Santry.

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Hugh: Okay, hang on, hang on.

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Yep.

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We are recording.

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Okay.

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Let's run with it.

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Awesome.,

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Wow.

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What attorney I.

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Christine: It was Abigail Green and it

was based on the fact that Judge Santry

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had been to a partisan campaign event

for someone that works at a law firm.

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I didn't really practice with her.

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I think you know her she's running

for state rep and Shelley kind of had

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her arm, or the candidate had her arm

around Shelley and there was like an

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Instagram post that was like, thank

you for everyone for your support.

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Hugh: Interesting.

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Okay.

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First of all, that's kind of.

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gutsy for Abby.

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I think Abby's involved in a whole lot

of court appointed things, or she used

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to be, so that's, that's surprising.

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Good for her.

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What were the allegations related to how

the campaign event could affect the case?

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Or is it just looking objective?

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Christine: Well, I think it

was the appearance of bias, and

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it was the litigant that found

this according to the motion.

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And it essentially said, I was shocked

because I know judges aren't allowed

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to get involved in political things.

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Partisan political things, obviously.

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And so pursuant to the motion, it.

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Indicated that undersigned, so that

would've been Abby Green called the Ethics

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Hotline, and the ethics hotline said that

she should file the motion to recuse.

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But I will tell you right now, I have

never seen Judge Ry that defensive.

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Hugh: Oh, wow.

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Defensive of the event or just in,

in being called, you know, her, her

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neutrality or objectivity called into

question, or what was she defensive about?

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Christine: I think all of the above.

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But you know, and I, I did a little

thing on my TikTok about this, and I

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will say before we get into how, kind

of what she said on the record, which

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I think frankly made it so much worse

and she needs to recuse, in my opinion.

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Of the judges in Jefferson County.

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If we had a scale of like the most

retaliatory to the least retaliatory,

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I would put Shelley down at the bottom.

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I mean, I just would, I don't

think she's really a retaliatory

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by nature type person.

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Hugh: No, I agree with that.

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I've, I've never encountered

anything that would lead me to

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Christine: But I was watching motion

hour and I always sign on with my name.

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And I have a lot of pro se litigants

that message me and say, they're

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behaving so much better when you're on.

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And it's like, I don't know about that.

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But Shelley was very much just like,

I was shocked to get this motion.

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I mean, she defended the motion before

she allowed Abby to really argue it.

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Hmm.

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Which again, mistake.

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And so the motion was, and the attorney

that was Shelley went to the event

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was actually the child's guardian

ad litem, which I think leads to it

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being more problematic, quite frankly.

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I agree.

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Hugh: Yep.

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Christine: And so the judge says, well, I

was an hour and a half late to the event

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which like a very standard Jefferson

County judge, L-O-L-O-L-O-L, and said

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that she only stayed for 27 minutes, which

I found so bizarre that she remembered

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the time she said she bought at 27.

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That's

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Hugh: very specific.

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That's, that's just an odd

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Christine: It is.

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It's like, you know, and I did, let's

give the benefit of the doubt if you

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do bill hourly, you know, we typically

can say like, right now we're at a 0.1,

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but still I found it bizarre.

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Hugh: We are at a 0.2.

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Christine: We are

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Hugh: Oh, from when I

hit recording, sorry.

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I, I'm used to, I've spent so

much of my life watching timers.

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Yep.

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Christine: And then she

said, I bought a beer.

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I paid for the beer.

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I've got the, you piss me off party.

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Sitting here on the bench,

which is like a local family.

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Sure.

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Bar party.

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Hugh: Non-partisan, non-political Well,

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Christine: oh, for sure.

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Supposed,

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Hugh: supposed to be.

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Christine: Yes.

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And she just kept talking.

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She said like, essentially, like you'll

recall and we'll get the tape for all

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the listeners, but you'll recall I wrote

a recommendation letter for you and I

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have taught most of the attorneys that

practice before me when I was at U of L.

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And I work really hard.

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I love my job.

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I wanna know if I did anything

wrong, and I've reached out to an

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ethics for the judicial ethics.

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And I am, if you look at the

parking garage, I am top five.

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And the judges that are here the

most just very, very, very defensive.

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She did say, if I did

anything wrong, I wanna know.

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And then Abigail argued her side and

basically just said, judge, you know,

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the appearance of a conflict is enough.

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I contacted the ethics hotline.

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They said I should file.

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It also, well, I didn't

even tell you this part.

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The fact that there was a, there's another

issue in this case as far as what Shelley

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appointed the guardian ad litem to do.

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I forgot about until

this, just this moment.

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But it was just, and the judge

said, well, we can have a hearing on

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this, but I don't think you can do

it because I wrote a recommendation

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letter and I don't think that your

staff can do it, because I taught her.

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So I guess your other partner.

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Who I don't wanna name

for today's purposes.

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She's a regularly appointed G-A-L-F-O-C.

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All the things can argue it, which

in and of itself is a problem.

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Hugh: Well, wait, hold on.

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So she defended, she defended

the fact that she might have a

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conflict by pointing out all the

other ways that she had a conflict.

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Yep.

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What.

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That.

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That's weird.

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Okay.

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We can have a hearing on

this, but you can't argue it.

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'cause there's already these

other conflicts that would

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keep you from arguing it.

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Then why are you on the case?

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I mean,

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Christine: exactly.

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Hugh: To me, I'm very happy that

she, she is saying, I want to

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know if I've done something wrong.

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I actually think that that's correct.

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I think that she probably had a

strong reaction to this because.

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She's just, frankly not the kind of, I

mean, she, I don't hear people talking

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about unethical behavior, like that kind

of appearance of that stuff with her.

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She's just not something that I, I've

heard raised and she is, she's one of the

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judges that we've had that actually has

a history in the family courts and has

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cared about and has lived in this world

and has cared a lot about this world

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going into, it didn't, didn't come over

from some other world to, to, to take a

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judicial PO position or to run for judge.

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So I, I, I mean, I take her

to her word there that she

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wants to know what's going on.

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It just, that's a bizarre reaction

to point out that we might

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even have a trouble conducting

a hearing on your motion.

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For an appearance of a conflict of

interest because there are so many

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other real conflicts of interest.

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Yep.

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That's and that's not, that's not

something that you would expect to

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come out of the mouth of a lit, someone

that's litigated cases for, for,

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you know, years and years and years.

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Christine: Seriously.

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It, she made it so much worse.

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And then she even said, I'm not mad.

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And when she said, I'm not mad, I

just thought, oh my, like I really got

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up and walked away from my computer.

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Because can you imagine to step back like

this is some of the legal drama, lawyer

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drama, but you're fighting about your

children and the judge, a grown woman on

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a, on the bench tells another grown woman.

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I'm not mad.

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That's unreal.

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Hugh: Yeah, I, you know, to me, sometimes

I will say that I tend to, when it's

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outside of the courtroom, I was always

better about this in the courtroom.

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But just in, in general, someone says

something or something shocks me.

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I tend to sometimes show

my real reaction to it.

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And sometimes I will, you, you know, me,

I tend, tend to react out loud or think

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out loud, and I'll say things to one

side and then the other and I'll just,

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my whole thought process is out loud.

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I, I could see myself offering.

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I know I've said this and this

and this, all these things.

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It doesn't mean I'm mad, I'm just,

I'm just trying to get my head

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around it, that kind of stuff.

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So I, I, I guess I could see that.

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Christine: I think if anyone tells you

they're not mad, you need to be prepared

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because they are beyond pissed off.

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Beyond pissed off.

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I did a test, like I literally went

up, y'all, you know, I'm out of town.

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I went up to my stepdad and

I was like, I'm not mad.

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And he, 'cause he's had like a recent

surgery, he's recovering, he like

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put his phone down and was like.

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Oh shit.

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Like he knew it was coming

and I'm like, this is a test.

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Like, and again, fair enough, you know,

I've had this conversation with a lot

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of female attorneys and really I don't

ever recall practicing in front of a

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male judge and going home and being

like, is the male judge gonna be mad

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at me and take it out on me later?

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Now, I'm not saying that there

aren't male judges that have

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acted inappropriately lazy.

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All the things predatory, blah,

blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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But I don't know.

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Oh, I just, it, it's embarrassing

as a female that someone from the

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bench with that kind of power is

like, I'm not mad at you little girl.

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Like, just, just be a judge.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I, I, you know, I've been guilty

of missing , those dynamics.

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Before, so save yourself, you, yourself.

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No, I mean, I, I wouldn't have

read as much into it, but I'm

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not, I'm not saying you're wrong.

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I think if I were on the other

side of that, I don't know

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how I would've interpreted it.

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I have certainly come out of many

courtrooms wondering if things

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are gonna be taken outta me or

if, or someone's gonna be mad.

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Both male and female judges.

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And I, and I won't, I don't

think it's necessarily de fair

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to say more so in front of female

judges because overwhelmingly, I

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practiced in front of female judges.

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There's only a handful of

male judges that I've spent a

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whole lot of time in front of.

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There was a small number that I, I

tried tons and years and years and

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years worth of cases in front of.

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But after a while, if you've been in

someone's court for years, you, you

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can read them, you can see, yeah,

I didn't need to worry if they were

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gonna be mad or take it out on me.

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And in fact.

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Most of the male judges i, I

practice in front of, in Jefferson

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County were not that way.

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You know, up until the, some of the,

some of the current batch of judges that

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started appearing a little bit more, but

they're mostly females, so we had, we

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had a lot more male judges on the bench.

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Now there have been times early

in my career when I wasn't

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good at reading judges where I.

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Would have to challenge a ruling and

argue with the judge, and we kind

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of got into it and it was respectful

and we were arguing the law.

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And at the end I waited until,

I don't remember if it was at a

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motion hour or if he had a hearing.

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Right after I waited until he was finished

with everything, I walked back in and

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said, judge, I'm really sorry, YTO.

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I didn't mean to, you know, I

wasn't trying to be unprofessional.

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I was, I was just arguing my point.

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And I, I, I'm hoping

that you understand that.

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And he, he looked at me and

laughed and he's like, yeah,

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you were being an advocate.

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If you, if I was really mad

at you, you would know it.

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And I, I remember, yeah, kind of

chilling out a little bit after that.

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But , I remember.

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Thinking I have to hang out and I

have to go talk to this judge 'cause

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I may have just crossed a line

'cause I was arguing so hard and

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he just thought it was hilarious.

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Christine: Well, and that's where I talk

about my experience with criminal judges.

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They love the law, they love

strong legal arguments, zealous

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legal arguments, zealous debates.

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Yep.

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But in family court and for the listeners,

we had a massive turnover in judges

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and we have all new judges and a lot

of people, the local community, we call

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it the old guard and the new guard.

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I mean, and And

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Hugh: they're not new.

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They're not new.

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The ones that we talk about

are that of being new are,

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are what, seven, eight years?

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Nine years on the bench some, so, yeah.

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Christine: Yeah.

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And but there was a massive change and

people just talk about how different it is

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and the old judges had much more respect,

you know, from what we all talk about.

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And this is not.

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You know, we get so many

comments too about like, oh my

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gosh, lawyers are all in on it.

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I do not know one lawyer and

for the judges listening,

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I do not know one lawyer.

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We have tried to get a lawyer to come

on this podcast and say that the judges

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are working full time and that they're

doing a good job and we cannot get one.

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We cannot get one.

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Hugh: No, but you know where

people are saying they're in on it.

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You know, some of the things

you experienced in California,

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I, I can understand the

perception where attorneys are.

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Having proceedings without the

clients present that are affecting

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and, and determining what goes on.

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They're having meetings, you know,

between the attorneys and the gs,

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and not letting the clients guide

those meetings, or not talking about

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their position, not preparing them,

and giving the clients some well,

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frankly, the client has the choice.

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The client is the one that says

What happens if the, you know.

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The attorney's job is to fight for the

client's position, and if the client's

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position is I, I won't say illegal, but

not a good plausible legal position,

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the attorney then has to decide to get

off of the case, not to just sort of

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do what he or the she thinks is right.

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But it sounds to me like you, you've

talked to a lot of people in other

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jurisdictions where it, it would be hard

not to think the attorneys are in on

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the process, but that's certainly not.

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Anything that I've seen or it is not

a complaint that I hear of here in the

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jurisdictions where we've practiced.

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Christine: Oh, it's happening here.

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I mean, I get messages daily and

some of them I've started to verify

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and there are a couple attorneys.

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And I think that we like just to

pivot a little bit on this motion to

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recuse and we can come back to that.

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But I, I do wanna be clear, I think

we really have done a lot of young

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attorneys, especially attorneys that came

up during the pandemic, a disservice.

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They're emboldened to think, that they

have as much experience as somebody like

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you that's been practicing for 20 years

and they've never cut their teeth on

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having adversarial hearings in person.

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True.

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Or with judges that followed the law.

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But no, I mean it's it is a

common occurrence and we are

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looking for, I am looking for

anyone, and this is not to say.

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Always one way or another, but the amount

of attorneys that are now recommending

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you get a GAL or FOC is somewhat shocking

to me because very rarely do I think

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that we talk to attorneys that think

GALs and FOCs should be a motion filed

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within the first two to three months.

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, Hugh: There were cases that

to get what my client desired.

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It was going to be required.

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And some, you know, from my point

of view of putting , my litigator

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hat back on, there were certain

patterns that you would recognize

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where one parent is doing something.

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It's one of these commonly

recognized manipulation patterns or

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trying to destroy the other side.

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That is oftentimes from an

evidentiary point of view,

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very hard to prove at trial.

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But.

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An FOC or a GAL will be able to see it.

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And because of the lax rules on them

presenting things to the court and

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them just getting to say their opinions

at motion hour and things like that,

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you know, as a litigator, you'd take

advantage of it because getting them

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involved in the case, it was much

easier for them to get evidence in

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front of the court and, and you, you

would always discuss it with the client.

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But, you know, I, I

would say the, you know.

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More likely than not, what they're going

to get across to the court is going

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to prove what you're trying to prove,

and it's the best way to get there.

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But those, those were very

specific circumstances , and,

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and my statement that.

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What, what wasn't happening in the

jurisdictions where we practiced,

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the attorneys weren't in on it.

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I was not referring to the FOCs or the Gs.

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I was return, I was per, I was

referring only to the attorneys

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for the litigants that seem like,

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Christine: yeah,

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Hugh: they're much more involved in

this system that we talk about in,

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in other places where you've been.

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Christine: Yeah, and I think Josh called.

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And if you haven't listened to that

episode please do the Orange County Dad

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And I will tell you I'm pretty critical

of our podcast and the one we posted

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today, our after show of the interview

is probably one of the best, if not

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the best one that we've done, but.

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I, Josh called after our, after we

recorded, and he was so thankful

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and just like, oh my gosh.

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I really enjoyed talking

to both of you and just the

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difference between you and Hugh.

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And he was like saying I

really do think though that

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you're right in the sense like.

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You know you got out, I got out.

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A lot of the good

attorneys are getting out.

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Most attorneys I talk to are

avoiding court at all costs.

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If they wanna go to court, they're

saying you need to hire A, B,

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or C because you are going to

end up paying 30, 40, $50,000.

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And I can't guarantee any outcome.

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You know?

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Yeah.

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And so I think a lot, there's mass

exodus, so back to the motion to recuse.

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I watched two motion hours, three

motion hours, and maybe four.

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But I didn't recognize a

lot of the people anymore.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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The, when, when we have gone in

person over the last couple months,

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I've really felt that way Now.

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Part of that was the last couple

years of my practice, I was leading

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a litigation team and I was handling,

you know, I was only making routine

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appearances on, on certain cases.

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Most, I, most of the time

I wasn't in motion hour and

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frankly I was usually remote.

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Unless it was a really important motion

where I would need to be there in person,

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like something that I thought presence

would, would be of value, I was usually

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working on something else and waiting

for, I heard the name and I was not

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paying attention to anyone else's case.

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I just never paid any attention

to anything else anybody had on.

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I was just waiting for my case to come up

so I could get onto the next thing, but.

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Yeah, , I mean, it used to be,

to me it was like a social hour.

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You'd see all these people you

knew, but largely after the

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pandemic for me, that stopped.

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Yep.

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And then now it's, I

mean, it's younger people.

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That's what the older

generation always says.

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Who are these young

whipper snappers coming in?

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I don't recognize any of 'em.

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They all look like they're 12.

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Yeah.

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Makes me feel old.

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Christine: Oh, totally.

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And it makes me really worry about,

you know, we have a lot of the people

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that are rarely appointed Gs FOCs that

are handling massive practices too.

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Yep.

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Privately.

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And that's very concerning.

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You know, I've, we've started

to get more of a following of.

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Local Louisville attorneys that don't

practice family law really inquiring

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about what's going on and it's all

the third party appointments and the

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custodial evaluators, they wanna know

how much are the GS and FOCs making.

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They want to know what are they

able to have a private practice?

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How many hours are they working?

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And it's, that information's not publicly

available, but I would say, and I was just

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guessing, but like if you're appointed

GAL on the dependency neglection abuse

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docket, I would say annually you're

making 40 to 60 a year with these

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appointments are paid for by the state.

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Yes.

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Right.

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Would you.

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That's about right.

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Hugh: Yeah.

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I mean, I was told, oh God, over a

decade ago that it was 35 to $40,000.

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That's what it would add to your revenue

to take that day and put it on the docket.

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That other, you know what other people

said when we were hiring attorneys that

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wanted to keep their docket, if we were

hiring somebody with one, you know,

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those were the discussions, you know?

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So that's the last time I've heard that.

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I would imagine it is more now.

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Christine: And so then there's

not a lot of money in that.

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And these are the cases

that are confidential.

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And this is the case where, , there

are allegations of abuse or neglect or

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dependency, which is a unique thing that

we have in Kentucky, which basically

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just means you can't care for your

child through no fault of your own.

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But then the appointments where

they're really making money is on these

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custody, private circuit court actions.

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Yeah.

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And they're billing between

200 and $300 an hour.

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But I would say that there are GALs

and FOCs that are making on just the

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circuit cases, and I am speculating,

I am guessing, but I would say, you

428

know, 60 to 120 a year, some of them.

429

Hugh: Oh, it's gotta be more

than Why would you be doing

430

that if you weren't making Yeah.

431

I mean, if you have hundreds of cases,

hundreds of cases, and you work for.

432

You know, 30, or you have 15 minutes

per case, per week, you're gonna

433

be making a ton more than , I

want to do that calculation.

434

I'm not, I'm not, I'm not quick

enough to do it as we sit here, but

435

it, I, I would imagine it's huge.

436

Now does that mean you're collecting it?

437

No.

438

But if we're just talking

about what you're billing out.

439

Yeah, it's gotta be who in the hell

would want to deal with that as a

440

full-time gig for that kind of money?

441

Now I get the, that makes

442

Christine: me wanna put

tequila in my LaCroix.

443

Well, if they're making

444

Hugh: two or $300,000, I would say that

when, I mean, when you're dealing with

445

the dependency dockets, things like

that, where it's a one day you work

446

for a court and you do that, I mean, I.

447

I, can see that being an attractive

gig to someone who has a young family

448

or something and doesn't wanna work

full time or wants to supplement

449

things so that they are not pulled

into so many, you know, private cases.

450

They take up your life, you know,

regardless of whether you say, oh,

451

I'm only working eight 30 to five.

452

It just not how it works, right?

453

Those kinds of cases are probably

a lot less likely to take up a

454

need into, to your other time.

455

I can see why people are interested

in those jobs, especially , in certain

456

aspects of their life, and they can do

some private practice at the same time.

457

The private ones, , I felt, I don't know.

458

I always felt when I had my own cases.

459

That there was this conflict in me

when I, I had anything court appointed

460

that was worth less to me and would

probably get less attention from me.

461

So I didn't want to take those

things because I know how I work.

462

Yeah.

463

And if I can earn, you know, five plus

hundred dollars on a case, why do I want

464

to take a court appointed case where

I'm gonna get like a flat fee or just

465

a, you know, , a much smaller amount.

466

And because when I would do

it and then , would take them.

467

I fought hard on them.

468

I pissed a lot of people off because

they probably hired thinking that I

469

would just file a basic blanket response

after a short phone call with my client

470

and wouldn't really defend the case.

471

And I would get involved and I

would fight it like any other case.

472

Yeah.

473

'cause that's you know, that was my job.

474

But, so you did a lot of criminal

work, criminal defense work.

475

The prosecutors I know, you know, are

paid by the state a certain amount, and

476

they are allowed to have a non-criminal.

477

Defense practice is that regulated?

478

How many hours they can work,

how many cases they can take

479

on their private practice.

480

Christine: Oh, that's a huge problem.

481

And if you look at the judge

that was just indicted.

482

Out of Eastern Kentucky.

483

It's based on the fact that he was the

county attorney taking private work

484

and there was an alleged kickback.

485

Now Eastern Kentucky is the wild,

wild west, and I'm gonna be very

486

clear 'cause I get so many messages.

487

Are you scared?

488

Are you scared?

489

Are you scared?

490

Yeah.

491

I'm scared of Eastern Kentucky judges.

492

Okay, so they are doing their job.

493

They are impeccable.

494

They're brilliant and they're amazing.

495

And the one that was killed in

chambers was doing nothing wrong.

496

LOL.

497

Okay.

498

But.

499

Yes, it's a major, major problem.

500

And the county attorney, the way

our prosecutor office is scheduled,

501

and this is like a whole book,

but I don't trust, mm, let me

502

think about the way to say this.

503

Mm mm mm I'm not a fan of our

county attorney prosecutors in

504

dependency, neglected abuse.

505

I think that they stir up an absolute

amount of drama and they, you know.

506

And this is on the dependency,

neglect, and abuse.

507

We're going down a rabbit hole here, but

yeah, so our prosecutors, they prosecute

508

these dependency, neglect and abuse cases.

509

And then the people that are court

appointed on this docket, they get 500

510

bucks a case, and they're appointed to

either represent mom, dad, or the child.

511

So it's like a circle of people

that are in court every single day.

512

And I also think that judges aren't

gonna appoint Hugh to that docket

513

because he's gonna uphold people's

constitutional rights, and that gets

514

in the way of having a two hour lunch.

515

Hugh: I, yeah, I think, I think people did

get frustrated because there were a lot

516

of hearings that wouldn't have ordinarily

taken place, , you know, appoint me to

517

represent a prisoner and then I will look

at the pleadings and realize you didn't

518

actually plead the case and file a motion.

519

Mm-hmm.

520

To dismiss it or dismiss some of

the requested relief because you

521

didn't do that part of the job.

522

Right.

523

And nobody sees that coming.

524

They think.

525

They don't have to spend

much time on the case.

526

The person is, is a prisoner.

527

They're not gonna, you know, no

one's really gonna defend them.

528

I can be sloppy with the stuff.

529

Yeah.

530

I mean, yeah.

531

, That's the case.

532

, I know what my personal issues would be,

doing a good job on the court appointed

533

cases if I was doing a ton of them.

534

I, but , I'm interested to know the

same thing that the viewers are.

535

How many cases, like why can't this

just be something that is reported?

536

At least, you know, to the

judges so they know Yeah.

537

Whether someone has availability.

538

'cause we all know I have, I have

spoken with friend of court and

539

people that say they just, they are

overwhelmed with cases at the moment

540

and they're doing as things as quickly

as possible and will get back to me.

541

And they're, sorry it's taking so long.

542

People that will actually say that.

543

And then the next Monday I'd be in

motion hour and the court would say, Mr.

544

And Mrs.

545

So-and-so, do you have

availability to take a case?

546

Yes, of course, judge.

547

Yep.

548

And it was like, you don't have

time to do what you're doing.

549

You, you're tell, you're

always putting things off.

550

You're not answering your phone, you're

not answering emails 'cause you've taken

551

on way too many cases, but you don't

wanna stop getting those appointments.

552

So you'll just keep taking on

more and, and it's a problem.

553

And like, like you said then, then

you get into these attorneys that

554

are asking, knowing that that's how

the system is working, knowing that.

555

People don't have time to actually do

their job and call their client and

556

follow the actual rules when doing it,

and they're overwhelmed with cases.

557

Why you would ask for someone like

that to get involved in the case?

558

I mean, I just, I can only think of

very specific circumstances where

559

I would ever want that to happen.

560

Christine: Yeah, and I can think of.

561

Literally almost no one that I would

trust if I had friends of mine that were

562

getting divorced and they were like,

oh, we're gonna get a guardian ad litem

563

and we're gonna appoint this person.

564

I would be like, hell no.

565

Hell no.

566

I mean, I can't think.

567

I think that maybe it worked before.

568

I think court appointments are a

one of the biggest things that we

569

could radically change immediately.

570

Children do not need an

hourly rate attorney.

571

In their parents' divorce.

572

Okay.

573

That is insane.

574

I don't know how we have normalized this.

575

We are taking money directly out of

their college fund, their trade school

576

fund, the down payment for their house.

577

For a lot of these people

that we know that I wouldn't

578

trust to write a will for me.

579

Hugh: Well, and you know, and here's

what you know, you and I know from

580

having, practiced , and how many

things that you go in front of the

581

court on in a divorce that may be

perfunctory or case management.

582

And there are tons of divorces where,

you may be litigating a ton over

583

the course of a year, and none of

it has to do with the kids issues.

584

But if you have a GAL on the

case, they're sitting there

585

through every single hearing.

586

They're usually looking at their phone

or working on something else because.

587

It doesn't involve them, but

they are representing a party.

588

I'm not blaming them.

589

They have to be there, but the system

is requiring the parties to pay hourly

590

for another attorney to sit through

potentially tens of hours of things , and

591

review pretrial disclosures and things

to make sure there's thing, you know,

592

whether or not it has anything to do

with the kids' interest and all of this.

593

Yeah, I, , it's exorbitantly expensive

in a lot of cases and so much of the work

594

doesn't have anything to do with a child.

595

Christine: Yep.

596

And it's to go back to this and

we'll wrap up with this refusal

597

motion, but, so this is a GAL that's

appointed to represent the child.

598

And imagine you're sitting there at

home, you've got an acrimonious divorce

599

with your ex, and you're scrolling

Instagram and you see the attorney.

600

You're paying hundreds of dollars

an hour to represent your child

601

or children's best interest.

602

Cosing up at a political event.

603

With the judge presiding over your case.

604

Like, and to be clear, in Kentucky,

which is rare, the standard for a

605

conflict or bias is the appearance

of not an actual conflict.

606

Yep.

607

The appearance is enough.

608

Shelley absolutely needs to get off

of this case and every judge out there

609

listening, you got no business going

to a partisan political campaign.

610

Just don't do it.

611

Hugh: Yeah, I mean, that's, it, it,

it stinks because, you know, I worked

612

in politics before to win family law.

613

I, I get the, the, the

desire to be involved.

614

But it's something you have to know

that you're not supposed to do when

615

you, when you get on the bench.

616

And, I mean, there's one

thing to be talking to.

617

You know, , if you're posting on

social media that you're socializing

618

with someone else that's involved

in the case, that's the appearance.

619

I mean, the, you're right though.

620

I mean, Kentucky's standard, , the

appearance of impropriety or,

621

a problem with impartiality.

622

It gives the judges the ability to

recuse and say, I don't believe that

623

this is an issue, but I can see how

it might, you know, it has caused

624

the appearance of someone in here.

625

I'm going to recuse,

we're gonna reassign that.

626

And that it doesn't go

any further than that.

627

And it allows the judges to do that very

graciously and frankly, take advantage

628

of sending a case over to somebody else.

629

Yeah, it is just a, it's a strange

reaction to me for her to point out other.

630

Other conflicts, although you

know the things that she's

631

pointing out and it's correct.

632

How many small town judges have, you know,

had some interaction with the attorneys.

633

You know, every single attorney that's

practicing in front of them, how many

634

interactions they've had with them

in civic life outside of the court.

635

There's some relationship there

and maybe they know everybody

636

in all the litigants as well.

637

'cause it's a small town.

638

I get that part, but, but

639

Christine: I think Shelley,

she made a bad argument.

640

She made it worse because I think that

what you do prior to when you're on

641

the bench is also very different than

what you do while you're on the bench.

642

That's a, that's a good point.

643

Point.

644

I mean, the fact that you had

cases with someone while you were,

645

you know, is very different, but.

646

Judges have to be impartial and

nonpartisan, and we need to go down

647

this rabbit hole because you and I

both, I mean, we disagree adamantly

648

on a whole, whole, whole hell of a

lot politically, but politicizing

649

the judiciary is one thing that we,

I think, agree wholeheartedly on.

650

Yeah, we cannot be doing that.

651

And I do think.

652

There is a problem, regardless of

whether there's a D or an R by your name.

653

The judges shouldn't associate with

D or R because somebody coming in

654

shouldn't feel like, oh my gosh, I'm

a D, you're an R, therefore you're

655

gonna take it out of me on the, in

this political climate, or vice versa.

656

You know

657

Hugh: what I'm saying?

658

Oh, absolutely.

659

I mean, to me personally, when.

660

I know someone's politics and I agree

with them, and they get on the bench.

661

Personally, I think, oh, I'm, I'm

happy that this person or a person

662

that believes this is on the bench.

663

But that in in and of itself

is part of the problem.

664

Like you you, but I mean, like

you said, what you did before you

665

got on the bench is different.

666

, You know, you were elected to be on the

bench despite all that you had done and

667

that politically up until that point.

668

So there is this presumption that

from the time you're on the bench,

669

all of that can be left outta your

decisions while on the bench and.

670

I think, you know, the judges, because

they're people and they're gonna have

671

lives before the bench, are entitled

to that presumption that they can be

672

impartial no matter what they did before.

673

I think that's how, it's, to me, very

different what you do after you've,

674

you've been on the bench, you know, and

you're still attending things and doing

675

things politically, even if I agree with

this or that, that you may be doing or

676

presenting yourself as, yeah, , I worry

about it only because of how that's used

677

in other places and in that rabbit hole

or I guess not rabbit hole, that slippery

678

slope is, is one that there, there are

plenty of other examples that we can

679

look at and how that can go very wrong.

680

Christine: Yeah.

681

And then I forgot to tell you, the

GAL's response was, well, this is not

682

a fundraiser, this is a kickoff event

and the judge is not gonna endorse me.

683

And a kickoff event

684

Hugh: for what?

685

A campaign.

686

Yeah.

687

I mean

688

Christine: like if somebody

wrote a check, they were gonna

689

be like, no, no, no, no, no.

690

I'm not taking money today.

691

We're just, well, that's

not the standard though.

692

Hugh: The standard isn't

whether you took money.

693

Yeah.

694

If it's a kickoff event for your kids'

school volleyball team, there's no issue.

695

But yeah, I mean, yeah,

complete that sentence.

696

A kickoff event for, because if it's

a kickoff event for a campaign, how

697

the hell does that make a difference?

698

Christine: Exactly, and she also said

that, and that Your Honor is not going

699

to endorse me, which I thought in

and of itself is the appearance of a

700

conflict because the GAL is speaking

on behalf of the judge whether or

701

not she's gonna endorse And judges

cannot endorse people for campaigns.

702

No.

703

Now they do.

704

I mean, the TikTok judge endorsed a

sitting family court judge while she was.

705

A sitting judge in the judicial conduct

commission did not reprimand her.

706

Hugh: Yeah.

707

But partisan.

708

So maybe they know partisan,

they can get away with it.

709

I think it's, I mean, there may be a

distinction in, in getting involved

710

in partisan politics and if you

were involved in, , non-partisan,

711

you know, a non-partisan issue.

712

Christine: Okay.

713

Judges can't endorse anyone.

714

Like the, the judicial cannons

are very, very, very clear.

715

Okay.

716

I mean, I think they maybe did a pri

they didn't do a private reprimand

717

that we can see, but they may

have done that private whatever.

718

But I mean, I, again, that goes

to how judges are em bolded.

719

But no, judges cannot endorse

people for political office.

720

Otherwise we should just.

721

Give up.

722

I mean, that's dramatic.

723

I don't know what to say, but judges can't

be involved in the political process.

724

It's the appearance of a conflict.

725

Like if you endorse a Democrat or

you endorse a Republican, what if

726

a matter comes before the court?

727

Hugh: Yeah.

728

No, I think this is, I think this is this

is a whole different discussion that I

729

think is a really, really important one.

730

But yeah, I mean, the, the long

and short of it is the judiciary

731

is supposed to be non-political.

732

Like when that stops working.

733

We have lots of evidence throughout

the world of what happens when

734

the judiciary becomes political.

735

And we are starting to see quite a bit

of that here in this country as well.

736

And I know you and I despite our political

differences, might both agree that we want

737

to pull back on that as much as possible.

738

Like our goal is for the judge, the, the

judiciary to do what it's supposed to do.

739

To function properly and

not, not to be political.

740

And I think a lot of times

the judicial reform community

741

really has political aims, so I.

742

Christine: Judge y.com

743

Couldn't have said it better.

744

Submit your stories, y'all.

745

In the upcoming weeks, we

will have massive updates on

746

the app, what to expect next.

747

We appreciate your support,

so, so, so, so, so much.

748

Follow us.

749

Judging the judges judgey

on YouTube and Instagram.

750

I am Kentucky, Christine, and

751

Barrow get a social media account.

752

Bye.

753

Peace

754

Hugh: out.

755

Speaker 5: Next call.

756

We need some

757

Speaker 6: justice, justice, justice.

758

And I wanna ring bells in public.

759

I wanna ring bes in public nor crowd.

760

Yeah, but I To the fo Yeah.

761

I To the fo Yeah.

762

Speaker 7: I to the fo fo

763

teaser.