Having difficult conversations is part and parcel of being a leader, but that doesn’t mean it’s easy. In this episode we talk about how to have a difficult conversation with individuals, teams and in public. We share our advice and tips for how you can prepare for a challenging conversations and what you might want to consider from the point of view of the person/ people you are talking with.

In this episode we share our own views, thoughts and experiences:

• 5:10 – conflict and tension
• 10:10 – difficult team conversations
• 17:29 – communicating challenges outside of your organisation
• 24:10 – preparation is key
• 25:56 – seeking support
• 32:53 – How to… have a difficult conversation as a leader

As always, we share our top takeaways to help you consider how to have a difficult conversation. This week is all about preparation, evidence, relationship building and mindset. And we want to remind you not to take it personally.

In this episode we reference Connect by Carole Robin and David Bradford

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we followed our own structure for having a difficult

conversation, so I've loved that we've been able to role model that and we'll

leave people hanging with trying to work out what word that might be.

That's a good Eastender style end to the episode.

What word was it?

Hello and welcome to this episode of How to Take the Lead.

Uh, before we get into the good stuff of this episode, I just wanted to

let people know that you can find out more about how to take the lead

and join our community over on our website, which is howtotakethelead.com.

We are also now on YouTube if you want to see us as well as hear us

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series launched for series three.

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you can engage with us there.

Join the conversation and if you like what we have been talking about, we would love

for you to leave us a rating or a review and why not share the episode with someone

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Basically what we'd love you to do is join us on our mission to change leadership

for the better in the modern world.

So, um, that's the spiel over Lee.

You have waited patiently.

Uh, while I've gone through that, have I missed anything?

And more importantly, how are you.

You haven't missed anything and I'm, I'm good.

I think there's some like added danger in today's recording, so if anyone

that's on YouTube, um, you are gonna get a treat because I think in this

episode, basically I record this episode upstairs in my office with the door

closed, obviously it'd stop the little doggy coming in and jumping all over us.

Um, The husband's put the heating on and um, so you're gonna see the slow

progression of me turning into a tomato.

I'll be like the tomato version of Violet Beauregard in uh, Charlie

in the chocolate factory, I think.

I'm loving that.

I was, I wondered where this was going with the added danger.

I was like, danger.

Have we done a dangerous episode yet?

I'm not sure.

Um, so, okay.

We will, we will look out for that.

Lee, I'm not sure, I can't fan you from here or do anything that's gonna be

helpful, uh, by way of body temperature.

If I start stripping off,

I'll just, I'll just carry on as if you are not, uh, stripping off.

That's absolutely fine.

So, um, on that note, let's get into what possibly was about to turn into

a difficult conversation of its own.

Um, this episode, um, I would really like us to explore what it feels

like and how we can start to have or get better at having some of those,

uh, more difficult conversations that we might have to have as a leader.

Cause it is definitely something that comes up for me, um, with people that

I work with around how they feel in terms of having to have some of those

more challenging conversations with people and as a leader, as in life in

general, there will always be times when we will need to have those difficult

and more challenging conversations that push us outside of our comfort zone.

And they might be about all sorts of different, um, kinds of circumstances.

So I just wanted to talk through some of this, uh, today, if

that's all right with you, Lee.

Well, would I be having a difficult conversation if I said No,

Well, yeah, that was a test there to see how

you were gonna handle that one.

Um, so I'm glad we were on the same page with what we're gonna

talk about, um, in this episode.

Cause that would be really awkward, uh, if we weren't.

Um, and I guess for me, the obvious place to start this conversation, or it felt at

least felt obvious, um, from my point of view, is maybe at that individual level.

So we'll probably build up as we go through the episode, but as a leader,

you are gonna be having conversations with individuals and, uh, sometimes

they are going to be challenging.

So for example, you know, you might have to deal with an individual's performance

that perhaps isn't coming up to the standard at which you would like it to be.

Maybe it might, might be about somebody's behaviors that you are needing to address.

And one of the things that people often say to me is that they know they need

to have this difficult or challenging conversation with an individual.

, but they, they're just worried that they're not gonna do it compassionately

or it's just not gonna come across as if they are being human and

having any empathy for that person.

So that's kind of the space I wanted to start the first

bit of the conversation from.

So what are your thoughts on that, Lee?

So the, the thing that I we all as humans, so let's take work out of it.

But even when you're having a difficult conversation in your personal life,

so often it can get to a point of conflict and tension because of how we

approach the conversation to begin with.

And you, you almost create this, this, you and them situation, and that's

where defensiveness can creep in.

And I think once you experience that, then it makes the whole anxiety around

having more of the same conversations.

And I think the same is is to be said when you are in a leadership

role as well, thinking about how you are framing and approaching

that conversation from the very off.

So for me, I think it's all about how do you have conversations that

are evidence based and you make it from a point about you and not them.

So you're not trying to project something onto them.

Cuz that's often what happens and that's where the defensiveness can come in.

So I think it's really clear about, you need to kind of call

it out and say what's happened?

then you need to be clear on what the impact is for you.

So no blame, no judgment in that, but it made me feel like, or something similar.

I can't think of another word.

You might use

yeah.

As, as a result of this has meant something can't happen on

time or whatever the thing is.

Yeah.

And then you need to say what you want to happen in the future.

Make it really tangible.

Cause I think that's where we often fall down because we'll say, oh,

we didn't like this and it, it, it made this happen, or whatever.

And then you just leave it like the person's a mind reader.

And I think there's something about boundary setting in conversations and

having difficult conversations is when you can be really tangible with an

evidence based from the very offset.

I think you need to be clear if you've are feeling that

it's a difficult conversation.

You know, acknowledge that emotion from the offset.

If you're finding it hard to have an honest, honest conversation, say that,

let them know how you are feeling, because that actually can help the dynamic.

You know, I'm, I'm finding it really difficult to, to have this conversation

with you, but it's important because can really help to frame it and then go

on to the evidence base so that, yeah, that's my, my view on how you would, on an

individual level frame that conversation.

And I really like that because from your point of view, and you obviously

can't control how the other person is going to respond or react, but from your

point of view, approaching it with that evidence base and with the, and so in

future, or, you know, what's the, the out desired outcome from your point of view

that you're trying to achieve takes all of that emotion out of it a bit, doesn't it?

Cause I think sometimes when conversations with individuals can feel challenging

and then when you are in them, they feel even more challenging is because they

can feel quite emotionally charged and you, I think you have to try and find a

way, at least from your point of view, to take that emotion kind of out of it.

So that idea of being very factual I think is really helpful with kind

of just lowering that emotional kind of vibe in that conversation.

Yeah, there's a, there book, you know, I love my book recommendations

and it, again, it's on the leadership recommended reading list that we've,

we've pulled together for this year, which you can get at howtotakethelead.com.

Um, and it's called Connect and it's by, I'm looking up at my shelf now cuz I

I thought you were looking up for, looking up for inspiration.

No, it's my, uh, David Bradford and Carol Robin.

It's really helpful at looking at the dynamics of things like having

difficult conversations, giving feedback to someone and all that, and

how you break it down in a way, how you tackle perhaps when someone's not

listening to what you've got to say and how you take emotions out of it.

So it's, it's all about the emotional intelligence behind building

that connection with someone.

Yeah, I think, yeah, good recommendation and good plug for

the reading list, so thank you Lee.

Um, but yeah, I absolutely think that kind of bringing it down, and

I, I liked what you said about don't make it about you, but do acknowledge

that you are potentially finding this a challenging conversation.

And I definitely know I've been in those situations and they've been conversations

as well that I've probably procrastinated around having because I'm like, this is

not gonna land well, some of them have been about people not being successful

in getting promotions, for example, or, you know, really stuff that is really

meaningful for that other person's life.

And actually just to acknowledge that this is gonna be a difficult conversation

and that, and that actually what you want to do is support somebody

through that, I think is a really important way of framing some of that

conversation for the other person.

Yeah.

So we've talked about as an individual, and we haven't gone into

loads of detail about all the various different circumstances whereby you might

find yourself having those difficult conversations, but I think people have

got the gist of, um, how you might want to frame that at an individual level.

So moving it up a notch now.

I guess there's also, uh, those times as a leader when you're going to have to have

those challenging conversations, maybe with a team or a wider group of people.

So an example I might give is say you are gonna have to have a conversation

with a team about their future in the organization, about their

performance as an entire team, about the fact that there might maybe be,

for example, a restructure coming.

So you can kind of get the idea of what sorts of conversations

might happen at the team level.

, but it feels like that's a different type of conversation to have and that you might

need to consider some different things.

Maybe some is the same around the framing, but there might be other

things that you need to consider when you are having a challenging

conversation with that wider group.

So what sort of things would be on your mind as you are preparing to have

that type of conversation as a leader?

I think the main thing is that it, you can't take a one size fits

all approach in how you have those conversations and, and give that feedback.

You need to tailor your approach for the different people and personalities in

your team and meet their different needs.

And I've been in situations both giving and receiving feedback.

And it can be hard, you know, not to get angry or despondent if

you feel you are being unfairly lumped in with everyone else.

Say for example, if there wasn't performance issue being fed back,

and it almost can create that naughty school teacher and children

dynamic rather than a healthy adult relationship, which is a, as a leader,

that's what you're trying to nurture.

You're not trying to be a parent to the people who, who you work with.

So I think that's an important thing to, to take into account.

And then I think often as leaders, we don't always think about what's the

real outcome that we are trying to achieve and the best way of trying to

connect people to achieve that outcome.

And, and I think the approach is the same whether you are saying something positive

or, or potentially perceived as negative.

So it's about the timing, it's about the message.

It's about who the best person is to deliver that message.

Cause it might not always be you.

It's about considering how do you deliver the message, and then recognizing that

you've got the process of transmitting your message, but then you've got

how others receive it and what their reaction is to that, and often we

just think about what our goal is.

Oh, we need to, we need to disseminate this.

And we don't think, and then what or what are we trying to change?

So often you might see situations where a leader will just um, say

something and then disappear and not give an opportunity for discussion or

questions and all of that kind of stuff.

It's, it's a bit like in the social media world where they

say, don't post and ghost.

It's very much the same in the leadership world.

You, you can't just put something out there and then not, not be

willing to ha to engage in a dialogue around it, particularly if you're

looking to see some kind of change as a, as a, as an outcome of it.

Yeah, and I think that is a really important point that you raised

there because quite often, I think because you are perceiving that this

conversation is going to be difficult, like your natural reaction might be, have

the conversation and move on, but the different needs of different people in

that group is really important, isn't it?

And there'll be people who need a lot longer to assimilate and come to

terms with the information that's been shared in that meeting, for example.

That then might want to check back in later.

There'll be people who straight away will have loads of questions

and want to, you know, ask them.

And it's about that preparation time around how you're gonna manage that.

And are you gonna build into the time for that conversation, you

know, a bit of time for q and a.

Are you going to build in follow up time for, so it is not a said it now

and go cuz people might wanna come back.

Are you gonna have an opportunity for individuals to come and have a

conversation with a relevant person who might not feel as comfortable sharing

their thoughts in a group setting?

So I absolutely think that that, um, need to put things in place to meet

the different needs of, of the people in that group is really important.

and there can be stages.

We, we talk a lot about engagement and the need to have pre-conversations

before decision making, and I think that needs to be taken into account as well.

And being really clear in the way that you are communicating at what stage

you are in a conversation can be really helpful to signal that and signal how

people can or can't get involved in, in taking that conversation forward.

I think the Canan camp bit is really important as well, isn't it?

Cuz we sometimes end up in a space where actually some of the decision or some

of what's gonna happen isn't gonna be open to any level of negotiation because

that's just what is gonna be happening, but it's about being clear about that.

So you're setting the right expectations about what people have the, um, ability

to potentially change and shape into the future, and what they absolutely might

not, for whatever reason that might be.

So that expectation setting for people before they go into the straight into the

conversation, I think is very important.

So, Good, good points made?

I think so.

Um, and I'm sure we've all found ourselves in those situations around,

you know, having to have those difficult conversations with teams.

I think there's something also for me, which is good, just good conversational

practice anyway, regardless of whether it's individual or um, Or

with teams, but also about checking back what you're hearing because

that conversation is very unlikely to be one way and people are going to

express a view about what you've said.

And actually you need to check back with people that like what I think I'm hearing

you say is this just to, so that you are really clear when you walk away from that

conversation about where you think people are at that moment in time in the room.

Yeah.

Everything we've said so far is, is almost assuming the conversation is

something that happens verbally and actually a conversation can be written,

it can be in lots of different ways.

In, in, in however people may choose to give feedback or disseminate a message.

So, um, we can't just assume, and again, that's about tailoring

approaches to people and times and all of that kind of stuff.

So we can't just assume a difficult conversation That is

only something that happens face to face in a verbal kind of setting.

So you've mentioned social media already with the don't post and

ghost, which I love, and I'm not sure I've heard that before, but I like it.

I like it because it rhymes, I think.

Um, but um, now more than ever, as leaders, we are operating in an

environment where we are perhaps more public facing than we've been before.

Um, and social media is one part of that in terms of how we're

showing up and how people are choosing to engage with us or not.

But you know, we should, I imagine in our organizations be as focused

on the external world as we are our internal world, you know, focus

on our clients, our stakeholders.

So how do you think that impacts on how we operate when we are

communicating challenging things?

I love it when a sigh comes because this is potentially gonna be a soapbox moment,

So I, I mean, at risk of perhaps treading overground we've covered in,

in other episodes, I think again, this is one of those areas where you are not

quite prepared for how to handle this as a leader and you might falsely into a

leadership position and let's be honest, it's probably a more senior leadership

position where you're having to do the big outward facing piece or, or representing

the organizational piece, but you might have a false sense of security or you

know what you're doing because you've done it on an individual level or you've

done it on a team level, and maybe you've done them in, in smaller groups,

a, a lower level in your organization, and it's been almost a safer space

for you to have those conversations.

You might be if, if a, think about the health service, a clinician who's really

used to doing one-on-one difficult conversations with people about their

health results, for example, but nothing prepares you for perhaps the

different context and situations that you have to have difficult conversations

when you are a more senior leader.

And I think that if you look at some of the scenarios that you know, you deal with

as a senior leader, so suddenly you are dealing with possible Vexatious members

of the public or even vexatious members of staff who, who wish to ex escalate and

haven't been in a team you don't know.

Um, or not even vexatious, just someone who's vocal and complains.

Um, you might be having to deal with the media.

You might be having to front public facing events and presenting big

strategic plans for your organization that could be deemed as being unpopular.

Um, and no one prepares you for that kind of stuff.

And I think that's one of the challenges that, that where sometimes leaders can

fall down, I suppose, because they think they've, they know what to do and how to

handle people because they've done it at a one-on-one and a local kind of team level.

And it's just so different organizationally.

Yeah, I don't disagree with you.

It isn't something that Get trained on necessarily or prepared for.

It's just you become a leader and it's assumed that you'll know how to deal

with all of these potentially difficult conversations no matter who they're with.

And I think there is something more nerve-wracking, I guess, like you say,

you said maybe internally or at lower levels in your organization it feels

safer, but I think there is something about being in that external space,

which does, uh, uh, rightly or wrongly make you feel maybe more nervous about

how you're having that conversation and what you might say because of

it being in the public as it were?

Like it's almost like that I can't take it back.

Although I would say that in some of our organizations that, that leaders

are working in, obviously whatever you say into your organization has potential

to them be in the public domain.

Um, but I just think it does feel like more of a, um, Yeah,

just, it just feels more risky.

Maybe that how I'm gonna handle this conversation publicly is potentially

going to, you know, has potential maybe to blow up or it will be there forever for

everyone to, to kind of look at and see if it's something on socials, for example.

So, kind of how, how can you deal with some of that nervousness?

Because my, my worry is that some leaders will feel that nervousness

and then choose to retreat and not deal with the challenging issue.

Yeah.

Probably does need to be dealt with in a more public forum.

And I think there's, there's different things that at play

so there's that, that scared of being trolled or becoming the, the

hate figure, canceled, whatever.

And we've, we've,

Scapregoat, whatever, yeah..

yeah, we've picked that up in, in previous series when we've talked about

being an ally, for example, as a reason why some, some people don't want to

show up for fear of getting it wrong.

Um, I do also think there's a, there's the thing around popularity as well

and wanting to be liked and not liking the fact that there could be possibly

people out there that won't like you or won't share your views and all of that.

So it goes back again to some, some mindset work you need to do as a

leader, um, and recognizing that...

recognizing and accepting that you won't always get it right, that

you won't be popular all the time.

And then I think there's the things of most stuff that

you do, you can prepare for.

Most strands of work that you're working on, you'll have the opportunity to do

the prep work, do the mindset work, maybe do some reflection afterwards.

So, I think that's fairly easy to navigate and make sure you've got the

right support network around you, that you can test stuff out with people.

All of that, I think then you've got the, the unknown and we've talked a lot about,

making sure you use your voice and, and that can be making sure that you are

getting involved in conversations that are diff difficult and tackling things,

particularly when we look at issues of bias and discrimination and standing

up and being an ally and all of that.

That can feel like a difficult conversation that you might

have to have as a leader.

Um, and again there might be times where it feels like you can't prepare for that

situation, but actually you probably can because you can see what other colleagues

are doing in situations and reflect, how would I handle that differently?

You could think, well, what's my position on X, Y, and Z issue?

And if I'm asked to comment, what would I say?

Um, you could think about you know, what do I, what do I stand for and how do I

want to be showing up in certain places?

So I do think that there are, in the vast majority of cases, you can do some form

of preparation and then there's a bit of feel the fear and do it anyway that

needs to, that needs to come into it.

Absolutely.

And, and I guess just on your point of like learning and prepping, even

for things that you are not sure might even happen or that may become a bit

left field, you know, there are always those case studies out there about other

leaders or other organizations that have or haven't handled things well in the

public domains when things have happened.

So even if, even if what comes mind.

is An organization or a leader who you feel hasn't handled

something particularly well?

There is always learning in there, isn't there?

About, okay, I don't want to do it like that because I can see that it

landed really terribly in the media or that organization's customers really,

there was backlash from them in the way they handled, you know, saying

sorry for something or not, you know?

So I definitely think there is that opportunity to always be scoping

out those, um, kind of examples of the good and bad leadership

and how you might handle those similar situations as a leader.

And where, where, have you ever seen, um, a case where it's turned

out well for someone who's just buried their heads in the sand and refused

to engage on a difficult issue?

It affects your reputation, whether you engage or not.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And I.

how much you want to control that.

and I know we've talked about that before on the show and

I'm sure we'll talk about it again.

But yeah, you, you're absolutely right about considering the impact you want

to have, what you stand for and your reputation, I think, are important

in the decision making around how you are going to choose to deal with some

of those more public facing kind of big conversations that might, that

might be about difficult topics.

So we've gone from the micro to the macro, individual to that wider

outside of your organization, difficult conversation you might have to have.

So as a leader, what support might we need to prepare ourselves

and equip us to handle some of these difficult conversations?

And you've touched on that preparation already.

But is there more advice that you would give to leaders who are

potentially going to find themselves in these situations where they're

have been challenging conversations?

I think for me there is something about your general approach to nurturing

and building relationships with people.

So that's something that you can do every day.

And I, I think particularly about situations in my past career where, um,

We've had difficult issues that we've had to deal with as an organization and

how when things went really wrong, not having the right relationships externally

just piled on the pressure for us.

And once we really focused on building those relationships, it wasn't that

we didn't get the pressure when things went wrong, but we were able to have a

more open and transparent conversation with people, and we were able to have

a private conversation with people might be different to the public

conversation that they would then go on and talk about and think particularly,

um, some mps that we, we dealt with.

But if you don't put the work in, in, in working on relationships

and dialogue to build that stock up for when things get difficult.

I think that's a really important proactive step that you should be taking

as a, as a leader, understanding who your stakeholders are and understanding

who your support network is, because you need to be able to, um, when things do

get tricky on, on the macro scale, being able to pick up the phone to someone

and go, look, this is what I'm thinking.

How would you handle it?

Have you got any advice?

All of that really is really helpful and important and gives you a, a, a

different perspective to consider.

Yeah, I, I agree with you and I think there's something for me as well

around, um, it's obviously really closely linked to the relationship building thing.

Is that trust, like, have you created, uh, a trusting environment

and culture that your teams and that your stakeholders are operating in.

Um, and particularly for some of those challenging conversations that might be

more internally focused around, um, you know, performance, challenging behaviors.

I, I think if that trust is there, then those conversations can start

and come from a place that feels very different, um, to a place where,

where there isn't that trust and that safety to have those conversations.

So I think you are absolutely right.

It's all about the groundwork that you are able to put in to kind of build

that, uh, on your journey as a leader.

And I think it's also linked to that.

It's, it's about, so it's about building the relationship, it's understanding

other people's motivations as well.

Because often we can go into conversations at any level based

on what we need to get out of it.

And we don't prep for what the other person might need, what they might

need from you, what they might need to hear, what they might need to

satisfy their stakeholders if they're going to buy in and get engaged.

So we, we look at perhaps conversations in a very one-sided, one dimensional way,

and we absolutely need to look at it in a 4d kind of, I'm doing my hands everywhere,

For those that aren't watching on YouTube, there's a lot of

hand action going on to make something, uh, more, more three or four dimensional.

Um, I would also say, um, on that point as well, around kind of when you go

into that conversation, you've got the thing that you want to get acknowledging

the other person or group of people might want something different, part of

your prep for that conversation could be, what is your compromise point?

Where would you be willing to negotiate or make a compromise to

get to an end result that still feels like you've taken a positive step?

And I think sometimes if you go in, as you've said too, focused on, I need to

get this from a conversation, rather than thinking about what the other

person then might feed back it it can leave you in a bit of a dead end if

you haven't got a space where you can go to for a compromise or come back for

a further conversation where you can negotiate something a bit different.

So I think that's a really useful, useful thing to point out.

And just to build a little bit on that, in terms of support, I think often, you

know, we've talked a lot about building those longstanding relationships, but

sometimes you'll be new to the leadership space, is, is there something different

you would start to say to people who are maybe new leaders who are very

quickly faced with having to maybe have some challenging conversations?

Not, not hugely different to be honest with you.

I mean, I think there's something about, uh, if you are new into a role or into

an organization, regardless of the situation and context, you need to focus

on relationship building, mapping out who your stakeholders are and, and what their

role might be in different situations.

And your first, you know, month, two months should be focused on

absolutely building relationships and starting to develop connections.

If something were to happen in those early days, that means you've got to engage with

someone and you don't know them, then I think it's about looking for who does know

them and how you can utilize, so there might be other people in your organization

that can help support that conversation.

You might not be the best person to have that conversation.

Obviously, if you are the most senior person in an organization,

you probably are the right person.

But then you are dealing with a probably another very senior person.

And there is, uh, you know, you can just, it goes back to that first point about

being open and honest about, look, I'm new I don't necessarily understand the history

or the context of everything, but this is the situation that we're dealing with.

So you, you, you, you play to that, you, you make the point that, that

you are where you are and that will be far more accepting, I suppose.

but don't be dismissive of the history and all of that because some, some people can

be bringing a lot of baggage or emotion because of how they've been treated in

the past, maybe by your predecessor, maybe by the organization as a whole.

So you can't make assumptions and there might need to be a bit of bridge building

before you ask something of someone.

I think for me, what we've been talking about throughout

this conversation is so linked to that emotional intelligence.

Piece, and I know we've got a whole episode on that that

we've recorded previously, if anybody would like to listen.

Um, it is an interesting one, but is about that emotional intelligence, isn't it?

Being able to kind of judge when's the right time, how you know how to handle

these situations, being aware, being empathetic, understanding where people

are coming from, so, Yeah, I really like the points you've made there and, and

particularly helpful for new leaders.

So we've got to that point in the conversation where it's the howtos time,

and I know we've just talked about some practical stuff that people could do,

but if you had to leave listeners with one or two practical tips or howtos

around having a difficult conversation as a leader, what, what would you most

want to leave them with terms of advice?

Um, preparation, evidence, build relationships.

Work on your mindset.

Don't take it personally,

I love that.

I have nothing to add.

I was, I was honestly all about the preparation and the evidence, but now

I'm also all about the relationships and the, and the mindset stuff.

So I'm loving it.

So, um, thank you so much.

I'm glad that wasn't a difficult conversation for us to have.

I think.

I don't think we've reached that stage yet in our have Lee, where

we've had to have a really difficult conversation with each other.

Well, maybe we have, but because we have an open dialogue

and we're, because I could think of one thing where there was a word

Uh oh.

Oh, yes, there is.

Yeah, there

and I had to have that, that feedback of, I don't like this because of what

and what I would prefer for you to do is

Yep.

Yep.

So we have, we have had those moments, but we've got a

maturity in our relationship and we've, we've followed our own.

Yes, we followed our own structure for having a difficult

conversation, so I've loved that we've been able to role model that and we'll

leave people hanging with trying to work out what word that might be.

That's a good Eastender style end to the episode.

What word was it?

Thank you so much for listening, everybody.

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