Frontiers: Exploring the World of Data | The Dunes of Design | Beyond the Program

In this episode our guest host, Jazmin Furtado, speaks with Ege Yurdagul, Director of Strategic Planning & Data Analysis at Revival Rugs, to explore how he leverages data to inform and make decisions in the artistic industry of Design.

They discuss:

• How Ege found himself in Design, coming from an M&A background.
• What he finds most exciting and unique working in the fast-paced, ever-changing world of Design.
• How he uses data while interacting with various teams to meet business needs without sacrificing creativity.
• And of course, some interesting facts to share!

Bio:

• Ege leads the data analytics and strategic planning team at Revival Rugs, a design-forward startup dedicated to connecting customers with authentic, well-made, and affordably-priced rugs sourced from artisans worldwide. With over 10 years of experience in M&A, due diligence, financial modeling, and valuation, Ege relies on his analytical prowess to drive informed decisions that propel Revival's success.
• As a director at Revival, Ege spearheads inventory management, demand planning, long-term forecasting, data visualization, and operational reporting. He not only utilizes the data he organizes but also works to democratize it, empowering every team to chart the optimal course of action in their daily operations.

Hey, listeners, Tim Winkler here, your host of The Pair Program.

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Enjoy.

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Hello

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Jazmin Furtado: everyone.

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And welcome to Frontiers,

Exploring the World of Data.

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Frontiers dives into how people

are using their data science minds

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to shape organizations and change

the landscape outside of big tech.

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In each episode, we explore the far

reaching corners of the world of data.

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My name is Jazmin and I'm

your host for this series.

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I myself am passionate about

empowering people to make data

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driven decisions, and I'm always

amazed at how others do it every day.

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With that, I want to introduce

our guest today, Ege Yurdagul.

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Ege is the Director of Strategic Planning

and Data Analysis at Revival Rugs.

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A company that sells rugs made

with traditional techniques and

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natural and recycled materials

from all over the world.

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Revival Rugs works with artisans

and collectors in remote cities

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notable for their weaving industries.

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And they operate internationally

with offices in Istanbul,

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Casablanca, Mumbai, and Oakland.

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In fact, Iggy is dialing in

from Turkey to be with us today.

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A little bit of a time difference.

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Before Revival Regs, Ege worked in finance

at various companies as an analyst,

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senior business development associate,

corporate finance manager, head of

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finance, and also worked for a bit as

a business development manager at Nike.

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At Revival, he focuses on both

financial and operational planning,

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and I'm excited to get into how

he translates his finance and data

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background to the design industry.

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So thank you so much for

being with us here today.

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Again, really looking

forward to our conversation.

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Ege Yurdagul: Thank you so much.

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Um, it's my pleasure.

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And thank you so much for

the kind introduction and

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also being brave enough to.

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Try and pronounce my last name.

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Jazmin Furtado: Thank you.

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I hold that as a badge of honor.

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Ege Yurdagul: It went way

better than I expected.

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Thank you so much.

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Jazmin Furtado: Yes.

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I'll do a great start.

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So we'll start off with

our icebreaker question.

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I like to use, um, so our

icebreaker question today.

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Related to tangentially related to design.

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If you had the ability to be any

kind of artist professionally, what

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art form would you choose and why?

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So, when I thought about this

question, I initially thought a

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dancer would be a good choice.

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Uh, we want because of the thought of, you

know, expressing myself through movement.

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I also thought it would be a good way to

keep myself moving and keep myself active.

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Give me an excuse to, you know, get up

and move around every once in a while.

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And then I thought it'd be really

cool to also be a fashion designer.

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So I, if you could be a, if there was

an art form that combined dancing and

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fashion design, I think that'd be great.

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Maybe just like design, like

a dance of sorts where you can

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like also work on the costumes.

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I don't know.

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I think fashion's really cool.

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It's like art that moves with you.

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And I, it's really.

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I think it's really cool to be able to

express yourself through clothes as well.

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You can relay and convey a lot

of information in something as

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simple as the clothes you wear.

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So yeah, that would be my answer.

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It's a convoluted answer because I,

there's a couple that stood out to me.

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Ege Yurdagul: I really think

that you would love one of my

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colleagues here in Ensembl.

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She is our head buyer for winter

drugs, and she also helps a lot

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with merchandising and styling and

She is a highly trained dancer.

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So Yeah, I really think like

you two would hit it off

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Jazmin Furtado: Oh my God, that's awesome.

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She has like the best skillset.

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That's awesome.

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I'd love to hear more about her offline.

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Ege Yurdagul: Yeah, absolutely.

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Um, as to me, I think I would

have gone with music if I could.

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Um, well, this is kind of like

a cop out answer to me because I

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used to actually play the guitar

for a while when I was younger.

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Um, I just feel like it speaks to me

on a level that other art forms Maybe

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not necessarily don't, so I don't know.

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Um, I probably listen to music for like

hours every single day and it makes

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me feel things that I really like.

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So, um, I really would have been, um, like

I really would love if I could be able

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to do the same for other people as well.

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So I want to go with music for that one.

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Jazmin Furtado: What, what sort of, okay,

so guitar, that's a legit instrument.

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What, uh, what sort of genre

of music would you play?

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Ege Yurdagul: That's a difficult one.

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Um,

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Jazmin Furtado: classical punk rock.

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Was it like, or it's just, it's a

mix of a bunch of different genres.

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Ege Yurdagul: Oof.

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Um, I actually have never thought of this,

but, um, I don't know, um, maybe go with

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rock, but I listened to a lot of hip hop.

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So, I mean, would have been

a difficult transition, I

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guess, but like, I'd probably.

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Would I love to do both?

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Jazmin Furtado: That's a, uh, those

are, so when I was doing, uh, so I

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played the violin for quite a few

years and I was taught in like the

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classical style, so like classical

music, I was really into that.

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And I really appreciate that now, but

I'm seeing more and more people do like

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violin and like pop music, which is a

cool, like mix that I haven't really

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like seen too much, um, well, growing

up, I didn't, so I just, you know,

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when you learn an instrument and what.

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What music you like, learn that

instrument in can be different from

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the music that you really like playing.

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So that's just curious there.

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All right.

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So with that, let's dive

into our main topic today.

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So, we're chatting about the design

industry, so 1st, wanted to start off by

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asking if you could explain a little bit,

you know, what the design industry is.

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You know, a little bit about, um,

you know, revival rugs, how you

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got into the industry at large.

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Can you just walk us through, you

know, how you got to where you are?

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Ege Yurdagul: Right.

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Um, so as you mentioned, I

did start off, um, doing M& A

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advisory, mergers and acquisitions.

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Um, so I did work both in the

advisory side and then I did, um,

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work in the private fund as well.

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So,

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Ege Yurdagul: And I, I guess like

I have always been a very focused

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specialist working on building both

commercial and financial models,

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um, which turned out to be a really

good thing to be a specialist in.

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Because, um, when I moved on from the M&

A industry, I got a job at the European

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headquarters of Nike in the Netherlands.

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And what I did there was I mostly

worked with the Nike store partners,

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which are independent companies that,

um, operate Nike stores across Europe,

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or rather the entire, um, EMEA region.

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So I did work there and I mostly

focused on long term planning and, uh,

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probably like for the first time in

my career, I also got involved with

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execution on a very regular basis.

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So that was pretty fun.

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Um, and afterwards I came back

to Turkey, worked for A very

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large Turkish oil company.

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Again, I did long term

planning, um, very much.

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So relying on my expertise, um, again,

uh, which was financial modeling and

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commercial as well, um, that was like

one of the bigger things that I have done

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there afterwards, I did co found a startup

that unfortunately did not take off.

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I did work on that for like maybe a month

and a half years or even like two years.

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Um, it was a good idea, I think,

but it just didn't pan out.

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Um, it happens, I guess, uh,

which led me to revival around

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two and a half years ago.

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Um, to be honest, I did not get into

the design industry, um, with the

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intention of, you know, uh, picking

the industry kind of just happened to.

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Um, get introduced to the co founders.

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Uh, we really hit it off.

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They were looking for someone

with, um, my skillsets.

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So it was a good match.

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And it was only after that, uh, that I

came to, you know, uh, learn about and

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appreciate, um, And also like back then,

Revival Rugs was also not very focused

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on or rather like not heavily focused on

as heavily focused on as it is right now.

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Uh, we did, um, focus on selling one

of a kind and vintage rugs mostly and

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our own designs were just taking off.

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But in the last couple of years,

It's now has become our main focus.

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And we, like, since then we really have

become a much more design focused company.

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Jazmin Furtado: So you are, so rival

rugs, they design their own rugs.

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So that you said there's

different categories, right?

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There's one of a kind vintage rugs.

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Are they both being designed in house?

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There's like a subset that's

designed in house by the design team.

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You know, how much are you like

making these rugs yourselves?

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Yeah.

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Ege Yurdagul: Right, so, um, one of a kind

drugs are, it's a mouthful, but, um, I

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think it's a pretty self explanatory name.

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Um, they are drugs that we procure

from both Morocco and Turkey, mostly,

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and sometimes from India as well.

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Um, they can be either new, or old.

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Or, uh, vintage hand woven

or hand knotted rugs.

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Um, and yeah, as the name implies, they

are all unique in the sense that, you

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know, um, either in shape, size, color,

and since like they're all hand woven

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by, um, different people, almost like all

of the one of a kind rugs that we carry.

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So, um, it's an entirely, not an entirely

different business, but, um, it is pretty

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Pretty distinct in the sense that you're

dealing with a huge number of products.

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Um, whereas for drugs of our own

design, we rely on the expertise

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of our design team, and then,

you know, um, we try to create.

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Best sellers and then focus

on marketing them better.

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So, uh, that's a different business.

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Um, I would say, but yeah, that has

become our, our primary focus in the

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last couple of years and it has really

been a fun journey and I was lucky

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enough to be there for, you know,

uh, the kickoff of the transition.

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Uh, that we had as a company, so yeah,

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Jazmin Furtado: so you've really

seen it from from a younger stage

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to a more mature stage has been a

lot of change happening with the

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company over the last couple of years.

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Can you talk a little bit to

your, you know, the scope of your.

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Your role within the company, so,

you know, you're looking at strategy

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and you're looking at operations,

you know, you've been in long term

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planning field, you know, for a long

for the majority of your career.

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What does that look

like at revival for you?

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Like, what is your

scope of responsibility?

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Ege Yurdagul: Yeah, absolutely.

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So, um, since we're a small team,

and we used to be even smaller.

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Um, two and a half years ago, which is

like half of the company's, um, lifespan,

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everyone really just takes on a

lot of responsibilities that do not

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necessarily match their job description,

which also was the case for me.

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And it allowed me to just get

involved in a lot of different areas.

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And over the years, I came to mainly

be in charge of our demand planning.

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So ordering, um, rather planning, uh,

the procurement of both our winter drugs

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and also our non monopokines, as we

say, or rather like mass produced drugs.

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Um, also long term planning.

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Um, that is still very much

one of my main focuses, uh,

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both financial and commercial.

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Uh, modeling of our business and well,

just, um, historical analysis, just

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assisting other teams with, uh, the

insights that we drew draw from the data

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that we have and up until very recently,

I was also responsible for structuring our

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data, just, um, cleaning it up, you know,

um, making sure that we have everything

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that we need in preparation for.

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The jump that we still expect to make,

um, because we still do not have a very

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like formal structure, even though we

have all the data fields, um, ready to go.

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It's still, you know, an ongoing process.

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Um, Yeah, to be honest, like I maybe

like half of the time I just end up

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helping people out on random stuff.

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So it's kind of difficult to, you

know, list all the small things

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that I do, but yeah, mostly, um,

it's pretty much these stuff.

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Jazmin Furtado: Yeah, it seems like

You know, and I think in with a lot of

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small companies, you do find yourself

wearing a lot of different hats you can

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imagine, you know, in addition to the

financial planning aspect, there's also,

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you know, inventory management that

you have to do and optimization there.

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It's also it's just interesting to

hear how, you know, with even a smaller

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company, you still have decisions you

have to make and you're still able to

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use data to help inform those decisions.

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Outside of, you know, the strategic

financial planning and operational

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planning, you also have the design

aspect that you have to take into

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consideration when it comes to planning.

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Because at the end of the day, you know,

you do have a product and you want to

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make sure that your products are, um,

are meeting the demands of the customer.

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So you do have some sort of loop

there from the design standpoint.

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Can you speak a little bit to.

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That, you know, what is that feedback

loop or what, what interaction do you

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have with the designers or how are you

able to inform, uh, the design process or

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the more artistic process of the company?

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Ege Yurdagul: Right.

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Um, so our design process is still,

uh, very much so reliant on the

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creativity of our design team.

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Um, and like, I'm really glad to be

able to say that, um, I think they're

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like one of the best in the industry.

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Um, led by like absolutely one of the

most experienced, uh, people that have

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been doing this for a very long time.

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So, um, I would say that is still the

engine, but how we work with them is

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so we mostly help them understand how

things went historically, for example,

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um, for every single launch, we do post

launch analysis that includes, um, Using

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normalized data, um, and by that, I

mean, you know, for example, like sales

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in the X days following the launch or,

you know, um, adding context to it in

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terms of the relative marketing spans

compared to our other product launches.

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Um, seasonality, what kind of campaigns,

uh, we have run in that period.

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So, um, you know, it has a lot to

do with just cleaning up adjusting

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and normalizing, uh, the data.

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So, um, we do that and we try to

dissect The stuff that went right

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and understand what went wrong,

um, draw conclusions from there.

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And for example, if we identify

a problem, we communicated in the

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best way possible to the design team

so that well, most of times, um,

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they do draw their own conclusions.

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We just try to set them up to be in the

best position to be able to do that.

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Um, which also involves a lot of.

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Um, tailoring how we present data.

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So, for example, for design team,

that would mean, like, probably

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mean that they're obviously, um,

very visual learners by nature.

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So, for example, when we collaborate

with them, Most of times we tailor our

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reports to be like extremely visual, uh,

with all the images that represent, um,

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the data that we are trying to convey.

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So, um, most of times, um, they end

up, you know, uh, seeing patterns

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that we've, we're We're able to do,

and, um, it's a very collaborative

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process, uh, which I really enjoy.

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So for example, uh, with the design team

is one of our main focuses, and we also,

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um, help them with strategic planning

when it comes to which products to

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prioritize, um, that are in our pipeline.

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So most of times.

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They do have a lot of projects ready

to go, um, or rather like in the final

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stages of production, but we help

them with which ones to prioritize,

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uh, depending on our financial needs.

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Um, what we, you know, um,

try to do for that period.

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So, um, it's not exactly.

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Like, I would love to be able to

tell you that we do have an algorithm

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that just, you know, predict

people's, um, choices and, you know,

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like what they respond to best.

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But, um, most of the time it just comes

to understanding the context because,

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um, with design, it's always going to

be, you know, there's always going to

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be the human element that's kind of

difficult to, um, represent in numbers.

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Because, um, I mean, pretty

much all our designs.

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Um, and it is very difficult to, you

know, isolate some of the variables and

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say, for example, this thing went wrong

because it doesn't always work like that.

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For example, there have been a lot

of products that we just loved.

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And really expected to do extremely well.

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And turns out people do not just respond

to them the way we expect them to.

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And the opposite have,

has been the case as well.

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Like we ended up not investing very

heavily in some products that we,

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uh, did launch in the past and they

just turned out to be bestsellers.

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Jazmin Furtado: Is there like something

that was surprising to you that was

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like, oh, we didn't, so it was, was

there, is there, is there one that comes

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to mind or one that you was like, oh,

I did not expect that pattern or that

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design or that, uh, characteristic to be,

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Ege Yurdagul: um, yeah.

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So, for example, well, this is,

I guess, kind of specific to the

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industry, but what's ended up happening

after we started to put, put, um, a

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lot of emphasis on our own designs.

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Yeah.

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We saw that beige rugs or cream rugs

turned out to be our best sellers by

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far, uh, which was kind of, which,

which wasn't something that we expected

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because, uh, up until then we, you

know, have been focusing on one of the

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kinds which are extremely colorful,

um, different in design, but you know,

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um, I guess that also has something

to do with catering to two very

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distinct sets of customers in our case.

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So, um, for.

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For example, for the rug industry,

um, in particular, that would be

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the utilitarian customer who values,

you know, durability, affordability,

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um, convenience, above other stuff.

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And then you have the customers who

value the design elements, you know, the

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story behind the product sustainability.

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So more.

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Intangible stuff in general.

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So, um, you know, when catering to

catering to those very separate customer

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segments, um, it's kind of difficult to

know what to expect when you're launching

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a new product, because we're still trying

to like strike a balance between the two.

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For example, we do have washable rugs,

which are, you know, mostly a product that

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more utilitarian customers are attracted

to just because of the you can just

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like drop them in the washing machine.

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Um, well, technically, you could also

wash with interact as well, I guess, but,

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um, you know, it's just more convenient,

um, for the utilitarian customer.

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But what we try to do is we try to bring

those two worlds together by, for example,

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um, introducing handmade washable rugs.

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Um, which are, you know, um,

made in a single way by artisans

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in relatively small batches.

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So we also try to experiment with stuff,

um, which is also really interesting in

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terms of being able to see all of those

data, because when you experiment as much

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as we do, or rather we have been doing

in the past couple of years, you just

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have, um, so much information that you

can compare and draw conclusions from.

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Um, so yeah, it's things are still,

you know, um, you know, phase that

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we have a lot of room to grow and we

have been growing like extremely fast

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in the past couple of years, like we

more than doubled our volume last year.

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So it has been fun.

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Um, especially for me personally, cause

I'm in a position to be able to see.

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Everything representing like everything

that we do represented in, um, the data.

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So, yeah, it is something that

I really like about my job.

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Jazmin Furtado: Yeah, there's there

are a couple things that you're

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saying there that I thought are super

interesting that the fact that when

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you're working with the designers,

there's only so much you can do.

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There's only so much you can

capture with the data that you get.

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I mean, we're able to

get so much information.

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From, you know, from technology,

we're able to, you know, check

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who's buying what and when and

what seems to be sticking points.

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But.

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At the end of the day, you can't explain

everything using data and you have to

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figure out what, where's the demand in

the noise that where's the signal in

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the, in the noise that you really want to

extract that would be actually valuable

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in order to relate to your designers.

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And then, when it comes to the design

process, it's not like you are dictating,

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you know, hey, make the rug's beige,

you know, you're just letting them

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know, um, the insight so that they can.

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Make the decisions for themselves.

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You know, from what I heard, there's

like a, you know, a backlog of products

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that they're kind of putting together and

experimenting with and your feedback kind

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of gives them, you know, directions and

tweaks to maybe what they are considering

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to help, you know, hone in on what designs

they should maybe look at doing next.

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I mean, that seems, you know,

looking at the scale of it all.

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I mean, how many, how many products

are you having to do this with?

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Like, how do you wrap your head around?

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Like, how do you manage?

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That feedback loop for all

these products, because you have

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thousands of products, right?

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Ege Yurdagul: Right.

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Um, and just to maybe correct one

small thing, make the rugs beige

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was actually one of the things

that we have said in the past.

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Um, based on how much our design team,

Dislikes, um, you know, blend there

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and how well they perform in reality.

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So, um, that's actually

come out of our much, um,

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um,

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Ege Yurdagul: so yeah, I mean,

Again, um, you know, what we love

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does not necessarily translate into

what does best, does the best, so,

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um,

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Ege Yurdagul: we try to just,

um, match the customer's

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demands with what we supply.

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So, are

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Jazmin Furtado: you, yeah, are you

providing this feedback on like a

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individual, you know, on an individual

basis when you can't, when you're

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dealing with a scale that you're dealing

with a number of rugs, like, how are

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you able to communicate and convey,

like, the most important, like, Um,

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pieces of information over to the team,

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Ege Yurdagul: right?

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So, um, we used to do that,

um, individually, just, uh,

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present regular reports, uh, to

different functions in the team.

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And a while back, maybe a year

ago, we did start using a data

392

visualization tool so that we could.

393

Demarketize the data that we have been

working with in a way that everyone would

394

have been able to play around with it.

395

Um, look at different aspects, you

know, look at, um, different dimensions.

396

So, um, that has been a large step in

both, you know, uh, reducing our workload

397

just in general, um, since people were now

able to just, um, do their own analysis.

398

And it also has helpful, has been helpful,

um, In a way that just reduces the time

399

that we spend going back and forth, trying

to understand what is going wrong, what is

400

going on with the business, since people

can now just, um, look at data first, uh,

401

on their own, um, at least come prepared.

402

And then we can go over, um, our

403

respective

404

Ege Yurdagul: hypotheses.

405

And then work our way from there.

406

So, um, yeah, that was a,

that was a great development.

407

Um, step in every right direction.

408

Jazmin Furtado: Yeah.

409

Data transparency is like so important

and it's not just for the people that

410

are dealing with the data all the time.

411

It's like really needed for the people

who, you know, don't or not working in

412

the data that need to be able to, you

know, look at it from their point of view.

413

From like translate it into their

words to be able to, you know, derive

414

insights that are valuable for them.

415

Yeah.

416

Ege Yurdagul: Yeah, yeah.

417

Um, but also there are like certain

challenges that comes with growing

418

at a really high pace, I would say.

419

I mean, uh, don't get me wrong.

420

I love the fact that we have been growing,

um, like in a crazy, uh, pace, but There

421

are also challenges that come with it.

422

Like it is very difficult to look at,

um, historical data over time and try

423

to understand what has been going on.

424

Because obviously when you're growing,

like, um, at 200%, for example,

425

um, higher, actually, um, it's

very difficult to compare the data

426

that come from different periods.

427

So again, it boils down to

just adding context and.

428

Just enriching it with additional insights

so that it is more, like, it is easier

429

to understand and, yeah, um, interpret.

430

Jazmin Furtado: So is looking at

your historical data actually, you

431

know, is it useful to some extent,

or do you just say, it's, it's

432

really hard to predict the future.

433

So we're just going to.

434

You know, our, our, our estimates,

our forecasts aren't super,

435

um, reliant on historical data.

436

Like, how much are you actually

using historical data when

437

you're doing your forecast?

438

Because, you know, like you said, it's,

you're, you're growing so rapidly.

439

How do you predict that?

440

Ege Yurdagul: I mean, um, especially for

demand planning, um, it is very difficult.

441

Especially for new products like

products that we haven't even

442

launched, for example, um, even

before a product is first introduced

443

on our website, we usually.

444

end up having placed three orders

by then, uh, on a monthly basis.

445

So, uh, we always do that blind.

446

Um, you know, um, which

is really challenging.

447

We usually end up having to rely on a

lot of benchmarking trying to look at

448

the cross sections of Uh, the data points

that we keep for every individual rug.

449

Um, but then again, um, it doesn't always

necessarily pan out, but I mean, it's

450

kind of the law of averages, I guess.

451

So, um, at the end of the day, like one

of them does better than what, uh, what

452

we expected to, um, do, and then another

just, you know, Does not perform to

453

our expectations and it is difficult.

454

Um, I mean, extremely difficult, I would

say, but for example, um, in terms of

455

long term planning, that is one of the

things that I really take pride in.

456

Uh, for example, last year, um, a year,

which we grew over 200 percent annually,

457

I was able to actually forecast our

revenues within like a 1 percent range.

458

error margin with six more

months to go in the year.

459

So, um, that was fun.

460

Um, I mean, maybe like 50%.

461

I

462

Jazmin Furtado: was like, you know,

when it comes to forecasting, you

463

can only be so confident, right?

464

Ege Yurdagul: Right.

465

Um, but okay.

466

So what is actually very different,

uh, different from My time in MNA

467

is that back then I used to do

everything at a very high level.

468

So I would always have maybe two weeks

or like four weeks worth of time,

469

uh, to start working on a project

from scratch, try to understand

470

the business in its entirety.

471

Uh, try to get a feeling of his operating

model, um, his operations, and then just

472

translate all of those information, uh,

to a financial model that we can then

473

use to, uh, forecast future cash flows.

474

So, um.

475

I mean, it's, it's, I'm going to say

like, it's a very transferable skill

476

that still house me, um, to this day,

but for example, in my current position,

477

I'm way better equipped to understand

what has been going on historically

478

and what we expect to do or what

we expect to change in the future.

479

I am involved with a lot of

different teams within the company,

480

um, which is something that I

kind of frowned upon in the past.

481

Like I, I didn't like the fact that

like people had all those, you know, big

482

meetings with like a bunch of other teams.

483

Like I, I didn't really see the point,

but again, like back then I was always

484

working in like teams of two, maybe

three, even though I was working in a

485

company with like thousands of employees.

486

Yeah.

487

Uh, it would always be small teams, but,

um, like today it's exactly the opposite.

488

Like, again, like I actually have a

small team that I work with, but, um,

489

the whole company is always in sync.

490

Um, and maybe it's just, you

know, um, I actually haven't

491

been working in, you know, um,

situations like this for a long time.

492

Even my, uh, prior jobs, I always.

493

Worked with smaller teams, uh, didn't

really talk to this many people, but,

494

um, it just helps to know the context

and be able to adjust stuff accordingly.

495

So, for example, um, you know,

when forecasting revenues.

496

Obviously we look at how our product mix

is going to be changing in the future,

497

how it has been changing, how that affects

other stuff, like our conversion funnel

498

or our AOVs, like average order values.

499

Um, so a lot of thinking goes

into like small stuff like that.

500

And in the end, even if like you

do not get every single small

501

thing right, I just, I mean,

they're all a linear function of.

502

Each other anyway, so, um, kind of

balance itself out, um, which is

503

why we haven't able to accurately

forecast our future operations so far.

504

Um, but yeah, it is difficult when

you're growing at a very fast pace.

505

Yeah.

506

I mean, I know for a fact that like way,

um, larger companies with way smaller Um,

507

growth rates have been struggling with it.

508

So, yeah, but I mean, the

challenge is, the challenge is fun.

509

Jazmin Furtado: The fact that you're able

to, you know, with a smaller company,

510

you know, leverage data in the way that

you have been to be able to, you know,

511

have, Accurate predictions to be also,

you know, provide enough transparency

512

about what's going on to inform everyone

in the company, you know, to and bring

513

in the designers or, you know, to

make sure that information is being

514

provided and shared with them as well.

515

Like, that speeds that speaks

accolades to, you know, that how

516

well that how well the company

is really embracing technology.

517

And using it in the, in the right ways,

uh, as you look to the future of the

518

design industry, I mean, more and more

companies, I mean, every company nowadays

519

is seen as a tech company, right?

520

Like, at the, at the heart and core, like,

everyone, every company is a tech company.

521

Do you see.

522

As we move forward, the design industry

really embracing that really using,

523

you know, more data in in similar ways

that, you know, revival is to be able

524

to inform not just it's, you know,

operations and, uh, and, you know,

525

inventory management and financial long

term forecasting, but also, uh, to to,

526

you know, inform the design process.

527

Or do you see kind of a plateau of sorts?

528

Ege Yurdagul: Well, in terms of tech

adoption, we are still catching up to some

529

of the bigger companies in the industry.

530

So

531

specifically for us, I think that

we still have a long way to go

532

before we can safely say that.

533

We use every tool, um, that are

available to us to its fullest potential.

534

So, um, yeah, I mean, we are getting

there, but it's still an ongoing

535

project, but for the industry in

general, I'd say, well, I mean, um,

536

accurate reading of the data is something

that I guess transcends industry.

537

So I guess.

538

Design industry is no different in that

regard, but I mean, I do expect a couple

539

of things, um, for the future personally,

obviously, um, the advancements.

540

In AI are probably going to affect

the design as well, which is, I guess,

541

something that goes back to what

I was trying to tell by explaining

542

two different sets of customers in

the market when it comes to, you

543

know, design forward, uh, products.

544

So, um, I mean, obviously, I think

at this point, it's inevitable that.

545

AI design products are

going to be a thing.

546

Jazmin Furtado: Huge disruptor

potentially in that, in that area.

547

Yeah.

548

Ege Yurdagul: Um, yeah, potentially, but

there is also the fact that, uh, that

549

could also mean and probably will, um,

in my opinion, for example, um, human

550

design element is going to be even more

valuable to a certain set of customers.

551

As you know, I mean, for a utilitarian

customer, people probably won't

552

be bothered by the fact that the

product was designed by an AI.

553

I think there will be even

more people who will value.

554

a product with a story behind it,

you know, with a name attached to

555

it, with a face attached to it.

556

So, um, I mean, it will

probably go both ways.

557

Um, obviously I think, um, in the

end, there are more people who

558

value convenience than people who

value, you know, um, a good story.

559

So, um, it is what it is, but I don't

think it's necessarily the end of,

560

um, design in the classical sense.

561

Jazmin Furtado: Right.

562

No, that makes sense.

563

I mean, it's, you know, whether you

have an emergence of, you know, I

564

think, I think in this arena, like, I

can be a disruptor, but like you said,

565

there will, there is going to be a

demand for folks that, you know, want

566

something that has that human touch.

567

And it's, it's, it's been, like,

developed and designing, uh, designed

568

by a human, uh, those, those 2

different, like, consumer basis.

569

I think it's very

interesting because I think.

570

You know, you may start off

focusing on 1 consumer base.

571

And then you expand out from there

as you, like, scale and whatnot to

572

have to try to accommodate both.

573

Um, I think as we, like, we are,

like, you were saying, as we look to.

574

You know, the future design, there's

going to be aspects that, you

575

know, they're going to be staying

the same, though, no matter what

576

people are going to be focusing on.

577

That the, the data aspect,

like, that's all going to be.

578

You said it transcends.

579

Industries, so that's always going

to be a, you know, a factor and

580

so we just needed that the need

for technologists in this field is

581

not necessarily going to go away

582

Ege Yurdagul: exactly.

583

And I think it's even, um, apparent.

584

Today, um, because, for example,

we see that handmade drugs.

585

Are very much so in demand, even though

it is way easier to just mass produce.

586

Those giant looms.

587

So even though, you know, um, that

still accounts for a very large portion

588

of the market, there is still a huge

demand for handmade drugs as well.

589

Uh, whether they're, you know, like

unique or rather like wind drugs or just,

590

uh, rugs that are of our own design.

591

But handmade by like professional,

um, or rather artisanal people,

592

um, you know, sourced locally.

593

So, um, again, yeah, if that's any

indication for the future, I think

594

the human design, like the human

touch and design is also going to be

595

something that That will come to be

appreciated even more in the future.

596

Um, I might be wrong.

597

I don't know.

598

Um, it is kind of difficult

to, um, predict that.

599

Jazmin Furtado: I think that that was the

theme in our talk today is like, there's

600

only so much that can be predicted when

you're talking about, you know, when

601

you're talking about like, Something

that's inherently, you know, art at

602

its core, you know, it's, it's really

hard to predict what people will enjoy.

603

It's hard to quantify, it's hard

to quantify what that, uh, what the

604

trends are going to be in this arena.

605

So you have to, you have to kind of just

stay on top of it and stay flexible.

606

Ege Yurdagul: Maybe just like one

way I would adjust that statement

607

would be, it is very difficult

to predict stuff in isolation,

608

especially in the design industry.

609

Um, thinking of stuff in context, or,

you know, like in cross sections of

610

different data points, uh, makes it

slightly easier doesn't make it easy,

611

but, uh, slightly easier, slightly easier.

612

I

613

Jazmin Furtado: like that.

614

Could not have said that better myself.

615

All right.

616

Well, actually, this is kind

of like all these are sparking

617

some, uh, this transition to this

like final part of our episode.

618

Um, So I'd like to close the episodes

with fact or fiction, which is where I

619

just state a few statements about the

design industry that I have, you know,

620

the research, and I want you to let me

know if you think these statements are

621

fact or fiction, and they're just, you're

not supposed to know these answers.

622

They're just random.

623

I just, whatever I could find

online that seemed reputable.

624

So, uh, I'll have five questions

there, uh, five statements to

625

ask and we'll see what you think.

626

Ege Yurdagul: Absolutely.

627

Um, I'm probably not

ready for it, but I'll

628

do

629

Ege Yurdagul: my best.

630

Alright.

631

Jazmin Furtado: Alright,

so the first statement.

632

Times New Roman is the most common

and widely used font in the world.

633

Ege Yurdagul: I mean, I'm pretty

sure it was at some point,

634

but that's probably false.

635

Jazmin Furtado: That is correct.

636

It's false.

637

Helvetica is the most commonly

and widely used font in the world.

638

It is Helvetica, I found out is

derived from the Latin word for

639

Switzerland, um, which is Helvetia.

640

So it's a fun little fact.

641

Ege Yurdagul: Yeah, it's, um,

even the, what's it called?

642

The abbreviation for Switzerland

is CH, Confederation Helvetica.

643

Jazmin Furtado: Wow, I feel like

I, I've never had someone add to

644

the factor of fiction before, so

I'm adding, I'm adding a note here.

645

I

646

Ege Yurdagul: mean, I, I have the

benefit of actually having given,

647

um, having lived in Switzerland.

648

Jazmin Furtado: Oh, nice.

649

Ege Yurdagul: So, yeah, very

650

Jazmin Furtado: worldly.

651

Yeah,

652

Ege Yurdagul: I wouldn't,

I wouldn't take credit for

653

that.

654

Jazmin Furtado: All right, let's see.

655

Okay, so you got one.

656

You're one for one.

657

Uh, second, red is the most popular

well liked color in the world, preferred

658

by around 30 percent of people.

659

Ege Yurdagul: I kind

of wish that were true.

660

That would really help us manage

our inventory, uh, since we have

661

so many red rocks just sitting

there, um, with very little demands.

662

Um, despite our best efforts,

so I wish that were true.

663

If it is true, I'm going to

be extremely disappointed.

664

So I'm going to go with false.

665

Jazmin Furtado: All right.

666

That, that is also correct.

667

You're a two for two.

668

So blue is the most popular

wildlife color in the world.

669

It's pretty high up.

670

It's a pretty universal.

671

Uh, the, the second colors, you know, all

kind of vary between like green and red.

672

Depending on, like, different countries,

but blue, you know, I found out that

673

blue is more popular with men than

women, which I was like, you know,

674

I was surprised about it's like, a

lot more popular with men than women.

675

Um, but, yeah, blue is blue is also

1 of the rarest natural colors.

676

Like, you don't see it very often in

nature, which I didn't know about.

677

So, it's like, 1 of the most rarest

colors you can find naturally.

678

Ege Yurdagul: That is interesting.

679

The

680

Jazmin Furtado: more you know,

even like the few animals and

681

plants that appear blue actually

don't have like the blue color.

682

It's like tricky of the light.

683

All right.

684

Two for two.

685

Okay.

686

Third one.

687

The post it note is widely known

as the simplest and most successful

688

product design of all time.

689

I think

690

Ege Yurdagul: I might actually

have heard about this one.

691

Um, you know what?

692

I do love it.

693

I have used it like extremely extensively.

694

So I'm going to go with true.

695

Jazmin Furtado: That is

that is also correct.

696

It is the it is like

the very widely known.

697

It's very simple.

698

It was made by accident people.

699

I think the scientists are trying

to create like a glue that was

700

like more adhesive, but it actually

didn't do a good job of sticking.

701

So, They turned it into

like a post it note.

702

It makes like really high.

703

It

704

Jazmin Furtado: has, it doesn't

spend a lot of marketing.

705

It gets a lot of money.

706

So it's a really, I

guess, successful product.

707

Other really simple designs are pretty

successful, like the Frisbee and.

708

The bendy straw, which I found out.

709

Oh, and the paperclip as well.

710

Ege Yurdagul: The first 2

is really interesting to me,

711

but, um, I get the paperclip.

712

That I didn't know the

713

Jazmin Furtado: paperclip went

through so many iterations.

714

Like, there's so many different, like,

versions of paperclip, which I didn't know

715

before it got to the paperclip itself.

716

Ege Yurdagul: Although whoever told,

you know, like this new adhesive stuff

717

that we were working on didn't work.

718

So, you know what, let's just try this.

719

And just adapted.

720

That person has to be a genius.

721

Um, that's some quick thinking.

722

Um, I'm doing like way

better than I expected.

723

Jazmin Furtado: Yeah.

724

I, yeah, I have

725

so

726

Jazmin Furtado: much power to you.

727

All right.

728

The fourth one, the oldest rug

in the world is around a thousand

729

years old, located in Turkey.

730

Ege Yurdagul: Okay.

731

I, now I'm going to feel really bad if

I get this one wrong, because this is

732

like the only question that actually has.

733

Not, not like the only question, but

like, that has some relevance, uh,

734

to what I, what I'm supposed to know.

735

Um, I think I'm going to go with fact.

736

I'm only 1000 years, that

kind of sounds young.

737

I would have expected there

to be like older as well, but.

738

I'll go with fact.

739

Jazmin Furtado: It is fiction.

740

Oof.

741

Jazmin Furtado: Your

thought there was right.

742

So, 2500 years old is the oldest.

743

You know, around 2500 years old.

744

Um, it was discovered in Siberia.

745

Um, it was from 5th century B.

746

C.

747

It's the Pazuric Carpet.

748

Uh, yeah.

749

It was discovered in the tomb

of a Scythian prince in Siberia.

750

Um,

751

Jazmin Furtado: Thank you.

752

Ege Yurdagul: I should have known better.

753

Yeah.

754

A thousand years isn't

that long of a time.

755

Um, yeah.

756

Yeah.

757

I would

758

Jazmin Furtado: not.

759

I would not.

760

I don't know.

761

I was like, wow, that

is, that is very old.

762

All right.

763

Last one.

764

Three for four.

765

All right.

766

The, the Nike swoosh logo was made

by a college student for 35 or 253

767

in today's money, this US dollars.

768

And that's the cheapest design cost

amongst the world's largest companies.

769

Ege Yurdagul: Yeah, I think that's a

770

fact.

771

Jazmin Furtado: That is fiction.

772

Seriously?

773

Actually.

774

Yeah.

775

So that's actually one of the, one of

the cheaper, one of the cheapest ones.

776

Uh, but Twitter, the first Twitter

logo was bought for like 15, um,

777

but the designer actually only

got like 2, um, for that design.

778

Uh, and then a lot of other

companies, I didn't count this

779

because they didn't buy it themselves.

780

They like made it in house, like

Google, Coca Cola, Microsoft.

781

They're all created their logos in

house, but I didn't count those.

782

So they didn't purchase it from anywhere.

783

So Twitter.

784

Is the, is the cheapest

one I was able to find.

785

If someone's able to find a cheaper

one that was not built in house

786

by a big company, let me know.

787

Uh, and because yeah, that I, I didn't

know how cheap some of these logos

788

could be, but there's also some logos

of companies that go for millions and

789

millions of dollars to be able to sold.

790

So there's, you know, there's, there's

a huge spectrum, very extremes when

791

it comes to the design design world.

792

And you know, how much is a logo worth

it's, you know, it's almost priceless.

793

Ege Yurdagul: Right.

794

Um, I mean, I knew that Nike has made

some deals that sounds absolutely

795

good right now, but I assume

sounded really bad at the time when

796

they were just like starting out.

797

Um, they basically give everyone

shares instead of actual money,

798

uh, for very simple stuff.

799

Um, even I think for

like general services.

800

Um, but yeah, so I kind of assumed that

the logo would be among those stuff

801

that they actually didn't pay for.

802

But yeah, but I guess, like, that would,

that wouldn't count anyways, right?

803

Um, if they actually gave

people shares, because that

804

would probably be worth a lot.

805

Jazmin Furtado: So, yeah, they, I

guess, like, later on, they, like,

806

gave this individual some shares.

807

That were estimated to be like 600, 000.

808

So I guess it was, you know, that's

the, the stories, like they eventually

809

compensated them enough, but, or

they compensated them, but yeah,

810

initially it was like really cheap.

811

Ege Yurdagul: I feel like I should get

maybe like half credit for this one.

812

Not that

813

I'm trying to

814

Ege Yurdagul: negotiate.

815

The Twitter one,

816

Jazmin Furtado: the

Twitter one is like low.

817

It's like less, you can't, it

can't compete with the Twitter

818

one that was bought in 2009 or.

819

For 15.

820

So I think Twitter is pretty big

or X, I guess you call it X now.

821

Three for five.

822

That's pretty good.

823

I've said, I've gotten people

that I got like one, one, right?

824

So like, you're good.

825

That's solid.

826

Ege Yurdagul: And then

I just came crashing

827

down,

828

Jazmin Furtado: but that's fine.

829

Well, for being able to, uh,

take this time with us to be,

830

uh, to be with us today again,

and thanks for playing the game.

831

Yeah, you did really well.

832

for having

833

Ege Yurdagul: me.

834

Ah, this was really

835

fun.

836

Yeah,

837

Jazmin Furtado: of course.

838

I mean, like, being in, hearing about

your arena and hearing about how you

839

use data to inform like a naturally,

you know, very artistic process.

840

That's just so interesting.

841

It's always been a really big interest to

me to see how people carry that balance.

842

How do you know how much

do you rely on the data?

843

How much to rely on, like, your gut and,

you know, how much to rely on your eye.

844

So, it's just so eye opening to see how,

how the dance works, um, between the

845

more hard science and the softer science.

846

So, uh, yeah, and they, and I think

they both, like, really challenge

847

each other at the end of the day.

848

They all stimulate and

challenge each other.

849

You can create a great blend.

850

Where, you know, you create a

company that really uses the

851

best of both to propel forward.

852

So it's really great to see there's

like good minds at the table to

853

be able to make these decisions.

854

So thank you again for enlightening

us with your experiences and insights.

855

Thank you.

856

Jazmin Furtado: And of course, a

special thank you that none of this

857

would be possible without Hatch IT.

858

so much for sponsoring this episode.

859

On The Pair Program and for enabling our

continued exploration in this series.

860

And lastly, thank you.

861

Listener deep.

862

Thank you for tuning in

to listen to us today.

863

Really appreciate you being able to join

us on our quest through the land of data.

864

Take care of y'all

865

Tim Winkler: calling all

startup technologists.

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