About this episode:

Dr. De Lacy Davis only became a cop to finance his music career, but things didn't go as planned. He fell in love with the community he served and remained on the force for over 20 years. As a black officer in a historically racist institution, he struggled daily to navigate the ultimate toxic workplace. Though both his career and his personal life have been marked by tumultuous change, the through line in his story is a commitment to service, honesty, compassion and an innate belief in "doing the right thing" regardless of the consequences.

About our guest:

Dr. De Lacy Davis works to prevent police brutality and to educate those who have experienced trauma caused by such actions through workshops, speaking engagements, scholarly works, innovative techniques and programs. He is an educator, author, community leader, activist and retired police officer who founded Black Cops Against Police Brutality in 1991.

Where to find De Lacy Davis online:

• De Lacy's Website
• De Lacy's Facebook page
• @delacydavis on Instagram
• @delacydavis on Twitter

Other Resources Mentioned:

• FSO of Union NJ
• Black Cops Against Brutality
• Myers Briggs
• Derek Chauvin Trial
• Ida B. Wells & Anti-Lynching Campaign
• Strange Fruit
• Risk of Being Killed by Police Violence in the US
• Harvard study on racial disparity
• Yale study on racial disparity
• Black on Black Violence
• Clairaudience, Clairvoyance, Clairsentient
• Divine Feminine, Divine Masculine
• Kujichagulia
• 7 Habits of Highly Effective People
• Post-Traumatic Slave Syndrome
• Winnie Mandela

Additional Resources:

• TCOM
• The Praed Foundation
• IPH Center

Become a Supporter:

If you like what you hear, please consider making a donation on our Patreon site!

Credits:

• All content Copyright ActuallyQuiteNice, Inc & TCOM Studios, 2022-2024
• Cover art by @jacksonfall
• Music by Ray Wyssman, The Simoleons, and Kristen Cerelli

Kristen Cerelli 0:00

The interviews in this podcast, all of which are ultimately uplifting stories of human transformation may contain general discussions of depression, trauma, violence, abuse, or cultural and racial bias. On this episode of shift shift Blum,

De Lacy Davis 0:17

like I didn't use the police locker room for 10 years, my last 10 years of my career, I didn't go in. I mean, I had been assaulted twice by my colleagues. And these were black officers. It was a fight with white officers, right. Um, one officer grabbed me and choke me caught me in a meeting and said of this 20 years ago, we would have killed you by now, because you're a traitor to this department into this profession, and never forgot that.

Kristen Cerelli 0:43

For over two decades to Lacey Davis helped to keep the peace on the streets of East Orange, New Jersey, where he was a police officer in one of the toughest cities in the state. But within the department among his own colleagues, there was no peace to be found. After a 17 year struggle against corruption and injustice, he left the force. But he continues to be a force for change in all his roles, both professional and personal. I'm Kristen Cerelli. And you're listening to shift shift bloom, a podcast about how people change.

shift shift Bloom

Tim Fall 1:34

is a new podcast and for now a small podcast. And we're thankful that you found us. In addition to the fascinating interviews in our regular episodes, we thought you might like to know about our bonus episodes, featuring host Kristen Cerelli and Dr. John Lyons in conversation about each guests journey. If you already know John Lyons, then you know that his insight his curiosity, his humor, shed a new light on almost any subject. If you haven't met John, well, you're in for a treat. Bonus episodes are available to our Patreon supporters for as little as $5 a month. At higher levels. Patreon subscribers receive merchandise offers and other ways to interact with C coms first podcast, including the opportunity for you or your organization to be thanked during the show, please visit us@patreon.com forward slash shift shift

Kristen Cerelli 2:26

De Lacy Davis 3:53

Thank you, Christian, thank you very much. I'm honored to be here today.

Kristen Cerelli 3:57

So given your pedigree and your contributions and your depth and breadth of study and your service, it's almost impossible to know where to begin in this conversation, but you are a self proclaimed agent of change and this show is about change. So, I want to start there and I want to start with the absolute basics. How do you define change.

De Lacy Davis 4:22

So, I mean, change basically is moving things people circumstances and systems from one condition to another. That can be both positive it can be negative, but it is change. And in this context for me, it's an a positive movement. And that is defined based upon the institution or the people or the community or environment based upon how they define change in positive movement, because we are not a monolith as a people and as a community, and therefore each community may define change very differently.

Kristen Cerelli 4:55

Is that your first order of business when you go into a community An organization is to find out what how they define change.

De Lacy Davis 5:03

Absolutely. I think it's important to understand what other people want, you may have an idea, however, the people that you think or you believe or you hope you're moving along a continuum must align with that idea. So it is much easier to understand where they are, where they want to be, and where they'd like to go, then to try to bring them along to where you think they should be going. So for example, you know, I'm a girl, Dad, I hope I'm not but I'm a girl, dad, and each of my children when we helped them to identify where they want it to be in their lives, but both my birth child and my adopted children, they're at different places in their lives, but each of them change their life based upon what their goals dreams and ideals were not what mine are. And therefore my job in their life was to help them achieve their goals, you can't possibly know more and no better about someone else's life than they know about themselves. You may have an idea, you may have an inkling, you may even be right sometimes. But at the end of the day, you don't get to define someone else's reality. They get to define that for themselves. And our job, if we're doing this kind of work is to help them with that definition, to guide them with the definition. And sometimes maybe to reveal to them things that they don't see, based on their definition, not mine.

Kristen Cerelli 6:22

Wow. I want to go back, I don't want to leave out any of your professional life or professional achievements, although we couldn't even possibly hit them all today. But I want to know what your time on the police force taught you about change.

De Lacy Davis 6:38

Oh, my goodness. So my time when a police force was tumultuous, I spent 20 years there and 17 of my 20 I spent fighting my own agency and city government, the blackest city in the state of New Jersey, one of the blackest police departments in the state of New Jersey. And what I saw I was fighting black people. But it was still an agenda that was grabbed from the law enforcement perspective that was grounded in things like racism, sexism, nepotism, cronyism, homophobia. And so that was the fight at that level. And I think at the administrative level, in terms of city government, it was political, I could have been any color. The problem is I happen to be black. And I happened to be galvanizing a black, brown and white community, against the institutions. And so they had a need to fight me. And I understand that better now than I did then. Because then I was I joined the force I was 23 years of age, I retired at 44. And so I got to see myself change, and grow and evolve, I left the force in 20 years, which was unheard of then, for the most part, because I walked away from medical benefits, I need to stay another five years. And rather than stay for 70%, I took 50% and left with the hope and belief that God would provide and I would find another way forward.

Kristen Cerelli 7:53

What prompted you to become a police officer in the first place and speak into those changes that you did go through yourself? You said it prompted change in you being on the police force. So So those two things are interesting to me. So why

De Lacy Davis 8:09

I became a police officer to finance my music career. No other reason. Wow. Am I you know, my publicist? She hates when I give that answer. She says you are too well educated to give that answer. So but that's the truth. There was no other reason didn't like police did like police officers. I wanted to finance my music career. I had a plan at 19. I started thinking it through that if I could buy a house, and it was a multi family dwelling, I could use one rent to pay the mortgage, one rent to put the bank and the other rent to pay for studio time. And that's exactly what I did. Six months after joining the force, I bought my first house and I ran to the bank. I didn't even I was so young and foolish. I didn't even know you need a cashier's check. I had cash in my pocket. Like I had sent all cash in my pockets in New York City. I didn't know where when I took the money out. My attorney and the other attorney John said, Whoa, that drug dealer money you can't hand me $12,000 in cash, right? That was the first part of change. I thought I had learned everything. But I didn't know that part of it. The other piece was I fell in love with people and service in while on the fourth I only plan to be there five years. So that was the first change in terms of my career. It changed my trajectory, because I said I'm going to do five years make enough money, go into the music business and be done. And while there, I met all sorts of folks that could influence that I met Vinny trench and kg from naughty by nature who live in East Orange. Queen Latifah and her mother and family who grew up in the stars. I trained her brother in the police academy, Lance before his passing in the storage. And then Steve Washington from the group slave. I all in East Orange.

Kristen Cerelli 9:45

There's a really rich history of music in that part of New Jersey and but you might not think you would connect with it by being a cop.

De Lacy Davis 9:54

No, not at all. And the way I connected with Steve who was very prominent was that I was going rookie police officer, we're walking down the street, the vehicle is parked in their driveway blocking the sidewalk. My colleague who's just hard nosed, says to the family on the porch, and I didn't really work the time, Whose car is this, you have to move it. So the wife comes to move the car as she goes to get in the car. And as she was one of the original brides of Funkenstein. So I didn't know any of this on the front end, I'm just walking a beat. He says, Well, before you get in the car, I need see your license registration insurance card. I looked at him like, Are you kidding me? This is their home. They're in their driveway. He insisted. So she didn't have that with her. So her husband came down, he says I'll drive. And Steve is a short guy about five foot five long dreadlocks. And he had on no shoes. So he goes to get in the car. And my colleague says, and if you get in the car to move it with no shoes on, I'm going to write you a ticket for operating a vehicle in a dangerous manner. So by this time, now I'm embarrassed. I told them, I'll move the car. And that's what I did move their car up off the sidewalk. When he went down the street, I went back and I apologize. Because I was in bed. I didn't know who they were. Because I kept hearing the wife say he they obviously don't know who we are. I didn't know who they were. And I later learned from his mother and his father who he was. And we became friends. And so that just enriched my career, but it also enriched me as a human. Because at the basic human level, I was seeing myself change, the very thing that got me going police force is the very thing that also brought me to changing and advocating for the community. Do you

think you would have come to that place? Had you not been a cop?

Probably, it just would have been a different path that got me there. But definitely, I think because as my daughter likes to say, the opera singer, I'm a creative. And so as a creative, there's an energy that travels with us. I knew that I couldn't be in corporate America, I knew that I didn't like certain kinds of structures. I like a lot of everything, but none none of one thing. And so I think that one of the other paths would have taken me there for sure. Sure.

It's fascinating. And I totally get this as a creative who has had other professions and has had to have other more traditional sources of income, that you never stopped defining yourself as the artist as the artist that you are the world seeing him walk down the streets, he's in the uniform of a cop, and probably makes many assumptions, none of which is likely to be Hey, maybe this guy is financing his music career. However, sometimes the longer you stay doing that traditional thing, you start to notice change in yourself, you start to realize that you can be gratified by some aspect of this quote unquote, traditional work in ways that you didn't expect. And something must have changed for him because he stayed. So I asked Elysee, why.

I started falling in love with the community to be honest. I walked a beat. I didn't know the city of Easterns. I lived in a neighboring city, New York. I fell in love with the people. I really did. I enjoy you know people even now they would ask me what do you miss? The police department said Not at all. What intrigued me the most was the the open arms of the community. So I wasn't I was an outcast on my force for the most part. And so even like you mentioned that we're not Robinson award, well, anywhere else. out of 40,000 cops in a country, anywhere else the city government would have celebrated. The police department would have celebrated they didn't. So the community had a celebration for me at the home of one of the residents in the city who had about an acre of land around her house. And everyone in the community came out to celebrate me in her house at her lawn. So it was that kind of connection. I started doing community celebrations out on the street and the worst drug area of the city. I had a four block area that I walked the beat, we started doing an annual cookout on the street. And I would go to the drug dealers and say listen today, you're not going to sell drugs, and I'm not going to arrest you. We're just going to celebrate and have hotdogs, hamburgers, music and celebration. And that became a part of my my work. That's why I stayed and I and again I stayed those 20 years because I genuinely began to enjoy working in the community. It was always a challenge. I prayed before I went into police departments and prayed every time I walked out. But in the community I was safest. Even when I was physically having to fight with suspects, the community would come to my defense.

It must have been so hard in spite of all of that community support and love and protection to go to work every day not being supportive, or even it sounds like respected by your your peers and your superiors.

So they were about at the time they were 202 72 Cops, I believe, somewhere around there. And I can remember police officers breaking the rules to come out of zone to back me up. Because I would call for help and help wasn't coming. And so I knew that there were a handful, who were going to stand with me at all costs. And they did. And so that was rewarding. Like, I didn't use the police locker room for 10 years. My last 10 years of my career, I didn't go in. I mean, I had been assaulted twice by my colleagues. And these were black officers, it was a fight with white officers, right? One officer grabbed me and choke me caught me in a meeting one, when I'm one afternoon, and said this was 20 years ago, we would have killed you by now, because you're a traitor to this department into this profession, and never forgot that. But again, you talk about how it changed me because I filed a complaint against the office to sign a criminal complaint. And it was in court. Eventually, after a second or third hearing. I mean, the courtroom was filled with officers, my support is one on one side with the community. And all the cops were on another side because this officer was um, you know, he was prominent and had rank. And the officer turned to me and says, Man, I'm really sorry for what I did to you. I'd like this to go away. And at that point, I said to the judge, I'd like to drop the charges. And my supporters were like why. And so it was important in terms of these are the ways that my life life was changed by the police force. Because as much as I wanted to make him pay the price for assaulting me, and humiliating me, and doing all the things that were done, I also wanted to lead by example, that we also must be prepared to forgive under the right set of circumstances. And so half of my family, a Christian, half a Muslim, and so in both religions, you are taught to forgive. And so in obviously, Christianity, you know, we are to turn the other cheek are your brothers, sisters keeper. In Islam, what it says is that says God says, Be not the aggressor, that God doesn't like the aggressor. As Muslims, you only fight with those who fight with you. And when they stopped fighting, you stop fighting. And so the moment he surrendered, I was obligated, because I thought it was sincere to accept the apology

is surrender. Do you think critical to change?

Not always? Well, it depends on who's surrendering. Right? So if we're talking about in this instance, he was the aggressor, and the offender, but I think we both surrendered, because he surrendered on the facade of feeling the need to attack me publicly and privately, and I surrendered. Whatever that is that we hold the need to win the desire to be made whole, to be right, under the circumstances. So in that instance, there was surrender on both sides, both flags went up. And, and we've not had a problem since and every time I've seen him, he's apologized, right? But I think to make change, you do have to give up something. Surrender may be a strong word for some, but you must be open to the idea that you, whoever you were, you will not be on the other side.

I wonder if that's why so many people are scared of change.

Yes. So as I've learned, growing up, change is a child of conflict. And so there are tensions that force people to change. That's why I was reluctant to talk about surrender in the context, because some people don't want to surrender their force, the circumstances and conditions make them change. And I think that although it can be positive, that's the hardest change because you're going kicking and screaming, right? And so you do have to change. And you do have to grow, and people are afraid of it. Because we're creatures of habit, and so they're very comfortable with what they used to doing. Even when it's not good for them, you know,

was all the venom, if you can characterize it that way and the and the violence and the dislike of you? Was it all because of black cops against police brutality? Or Or was there more to it than that?

I think that's the gist of it. And I would call it vitriol, right? They I can tell you what some cops have said to me, we don't mind you doing social work, but you need to turn your badge and gun and become a social worker. I had cops tell me point blank, we like knocking people in the heads. And so I don't know why you insist on defending people that we want to hit. Yes, I mean, I definitely triggered all of it. Because they knew if I walked in the room and you assaulted someone in front of me, I was telling period. As simple. As I said to my colleagues, I don't give you permission to reduce my children's chances of going to college by me losing my pension, because I was next to you as you behaved in a manner that's inconsistent with what we learned in the academy. I don't give you that permission. You have no right to put me in that condition. Therefore, if you put me and my family on the line, you need to know that I'm going to also put you and your family on the line.

How did you develop such a strong sense of boundaries and, and maintain this moral compass in the face of complicated institutions and systems are so complicated?

Well, you know, my therapist would say to me, because of course, with a lot of losses to which you're aware of, we went into grief counseling me, the children the whole bit. And a therapist says to me, he says, you know, when we do your Myers Briggs, which is an evaluation or an assessment, he says, You score extremely high on ethics. Wow. He says, and people who score that high usually have very miserable lives. He says, and what I need to help you understand is that these are humans you're working with, and they're fallible. So that took some time, and a lot of work. To understand it. I think it comes from my parents. So my mom had me at 19. She was a single mom, but she worked real hard. She raised me my brother, she took in one of her sisters, children, and seven other children from the community and just raise them in our home. My dad, who was a hairdresser in the beauty salon, and he was in the military. My dad was a hairdresser for 65 years, until his recent passing. But last year, dad actually was extremely disciplined in the home. And I was in trouble all the time, because I was extremely undisciplined as a child. And so I developed it later in the later on in life, because I remember he and my mom, and my grandmother trying to drive it home to me and not getting it. And then one day it just clicked. So like to prepare for this I prepared earlier on. I was up at four o'clock this morning, I walked my two miles I watered the lawn, I picked up the car, all of those kinds of things. So by the time most people are starting their day, I'm halfway through my Yeah. And so what I think we do is that we reinforce on those good things, you know, as Ron Cholesky, who is my instructor at my MS program, at I'm fairly Dicus University used to say good habits are hard to develop an easy to break. Bad habits are easy to develop and hard to break.

I want to ask you about the derrick Chauvin trial and conviction. does that signify that something has changed?

No. No, not at all.

Tell me about that.

So you were talking about Derek Shogun, who's the officer that had his knee on the neck of George Floyd? Yes. And what it says to me and what it triggered for me was the days of Ida B. Wells, and the anti lynching campaign. It triggered for me the song strange for that song about black men hanging from trees. It triggered for me, my grandmother, Clara Molly Bell Johnson, born 1901 died 1982, the youngest of 10 children, and all of her aunts and uncles were slaves. It triggered for me, Professor Gable de, the fifth generation, the starting of my family 1818 1895, born in Loudoun County, Virginia, and the fact that he was called Professor implies that he was educated at a time when being black and educated, are incongruent. So to see Derek Shogun, with his hand in his pocket, and no compunction on his face about what was happening in the life of this man under his knee reminds me that the more things have changed, the more they remained the same. And while the country, rightfully so was in an uproar, and there was outcry, it's quiet now. And I don't think that a lot has changed, because these are institutional problems. One would feel comfortable saying what Derek show is just a horrible human, but for the fact that he had 16 or 17 complaints before his encounter with Georgia boy. So what it says is that they were willing to hold him accountable on this one, because it was so egregious. But what about the first 16 or 17? That's problematic? I think what has changed is officers coming forward and testifying against him. His own chief and his own agency is a significant change. But I believe that we remember we talked about circumstances and conditions, sometimes force the change.

Yes, but for the fact that none of the other officers who were with him did anything. Yes.

So it's a culture. And that's the concern. It is the culture of law enforcement, and that's what I've seen my entire career. And that's what grandpa talked about before I ever became a police officer the overt practices of racism, and degradation and oppression and police violence that occurred long before we got to Rodney King. Rodney King was the first capture on video. And Derek Shogun is the most recent murder on video. But what happens is that there was all in between.

It's actually not that easy to find clear statistics on how many black men have died at the hands of police officers since Rodney King. But what I can tell you is police violence is still a leading cause of death for young men, young black men in the United States. Over the course of their life, one in every 1000 Black men can expect to be killed by a cop and black men are three times more likely to be killed by police than white men. And in the last five years, there has been zero reduction in the racial disparity and fatal police shooting victims. Good. I'm just talking about shooting deaths. I'm not even talking about all of the other things that people of color suffer short of murder. And even people of color, who have status like it's not just innocent young black men being victimized by police, you're not gonna believe the next story he tells about a black female cop

book, just as we talk about, you know, Derek Chauvin injured Mr. George Floyd. We can't forget that carry a horn, a black female police officer in Buffalo, New York, 21 years ago, jumped in between her partner and a black suspect that was handcuffed and being beaten by a white partner and a partner then punched her in the face flipped her. And the department prosecuted her and she was fired in her 19 year. And it's only now that the city of Buffalo was making it right to reinstate her pension and all the back money that she had lost. But she paid a high price. She you know, children were homeless, she was evicted, she became a truck driver to feed her children. And it has an impact. So when I think about has it changed, I don't think so things have not changed. Dr. Amos Wilson, who's the author of black on black violence, the psycho dynamics of black self annihilation and service of white domination used to say that what you will see in this society is people going up and down simultaneously. And they will hold out the people that are climbing the ladder and ascending as though we've reached a modicum of success, while knowing all along that exponentially. People in the same class and group are dying. And so that's an up and down simultaneously, the George Floyd and what we see is an up and down because folks are saying see the system work. It worked that time. But there was 17 times before then that it didn't work. And if it didn't work there 17 times what are the places is changed, not occurring? I think the change for me in my lifetime is very much like when I was a child in in this late 60s. We see coalition's across racial lines, ethnic lines, age, gender sex, that's slightly different. Because white kids are standing up and saying I'm not taking it either.

Are you relieved that you're not doing that anymore? That you're that you're not a cop? Are you more angry, less angry? Whoo. How do you feel?

So I recently turned down an offer to be considered for police director in an urban community. And I turned down an offer to be a police director in a southern community, okay. And they were community people that were coming to me, I don't miss it. I'm not angry. I think that we don't have leadership in the context of what it looked like. And so I'm training officers and other agencies around the country. And when I talk with them, like I was just in a southern state, about a month ago, and at the end, three or four young officers walked up to me and says, Man, can I stay in touch with you? Like, I've been here 10 years, and I've been looking for that kind of energy. And you know, can you just be the father figure in my life, this kids 35 years old. And so what I recognize is that I don't think that there isn't a desire, from officers in law enforcement to do the right thing. I believe there's a lack of leadership, not the status quo leadership, but leadership that is transformational leadership, that is progressive leadership that's willing to challenge the status quo at all costs. You know, folks that come in on the police force, you know, and I said this to a group the other day, I says, All of you have told me the lie that you joined the police force to help people. Now I'd like you to support your line statement by telling me which people you help be on your own. have family and friends and neighbors. And they were stuck. Because the reality is that that's what we're told to say. And I believe people start out there. That's not where you end up when you're working 10 and 12 hours a day when you're under pressure, when you've been trained from a warrior mentality that says it's them versus us when you are cuffing people, and you're calling people, the, the N word, the B word, the MFR, all of those things that takes a toll on you to you know, you can't get in in the slop and don't think you're going to get dirty,

but reinforces this thought or idea that it's why people won't change because or, or have trouble changing, because prior to the change, you have to be willing to look in the mirror and see, turn over the rock and see the ugliness and see see the things that need to change. And who wants to do that?

That's correct. That's right. You know, my mentor used to say to me, the hardest thing to do is to look at yourself. And he would say to me to Lacey, I want you to remember that when people judge you, it's not based on who you are. They're judging you based on who they are. And they don't see the value in themselves, therefore, they can't value what you're doing, when they don't have the courage to do what you want to do. And therefore they must condemn what you're doing. He went on one time to say to me, he says, I listened to your lecture, and I need you to know that I need you to lighten it up sometimes, and use some humor. Because what you're saying is so powerful, that it's making me not able to look in the mirror. So I need you to lighten it up so people can see themselves. And so what I began to do is talk to people about their cousins. And then I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about your cousin. Or if I had a conversation in a predominately white community, I would say today I want to talk to you about white people. And I would say something that I knew would be a trigger. I says, Oh, wait. But this be very clear. When I tell you I'm talking about white people, I am not talking about you. I'm talking about filthy, rich white people, not you, this is a different group, it would lighten the mood. And what I would be clear to do is to give them room to breathe. Like if I said something that I knew hit hard, I would say no, let's take a moment to let it marinate. And let's breathe. And I will go through some breathing exercises with them. And I think Dr. Seeley for that

sounds extraordinary.

He was he was outstanding.

I'm sure we're gonna come back around to some of this stuff. But I want to shift gears a little bit. Because I'm so hungry to talk to you about fatherhood, and your five children. And I wonder how does biological fatherhood change you?

So I my daughter was playing my daughter ala Renee Davis, she's an opera singer. She graduated Newington conservatory Music in Boston, went to our high school in New York, and good kids. She's 30 now and she was outstanding. She is outstanding. However, we planned her. I called her mother one evening and said, Listen, we're gonna make the baby tonight. And we laugh about this, because my daughter's like that you really did. I really did. I remember, whenever any mistakes, called her, I was at the police station desk, I'll never forget 130 In the morning, and six weeks later, she was six weeks pregnant. And that's how my daughter was born. I picked her name two years before she was ever born. And I just knew I was being blessed with this child. So again, another change in my life. Another transition. I was one of only two cops who had baby who small children, who would go to court, when I off duty in a suit and tie with a diaper bag, and my six month old baby under my arm. And there I stood in front of the judge with a suspect to the right of me that handcuffed and me there with holding my baby. And that was revolutionary. But it changed me because I wanted to show the world and I wanted to show men that I was proud to be a dad, period.

Even just the telling of the story that you you called her mother and said we're going to make the babies tonight. It reflects back your definition of yourself as a change maker, it seems to me, you have a vision before a change happens you you have some energy that you're harnessing towards the change itself, which tell me about how that lives in you.

So in the African tradition, well, first of all, in the Western education, we don't learn any of that. But in the African tradition, it is not the man is stronger than the woman or vice versa. It is the duality of the African male and female energy. And that exists in all of us. And if you allow as we call this third eye to be opened, it is an eye to the universe that will reveal those things to you. My grandmother years ago, they explained it as veiled babies. Those were folks that could see things before they occurred in western education, the attempt to try to explain it With either clairvoyance people that can see forward or Claire essence they can feel, I can feel danger. My mother can when she was living could always feel what state I was in, no matter where I was in the country, I could be in trouble, I could be in crisis, she would call me and says you're heavy in my spirit, what's going on. And so I learned to not tune it out. I can feel it. I was jumped in my freshman year at high school, downtown Newark, walking out of school with a senior. And I said to him, somebody is getting ready to get there behind kicked. I could just feel it. I didn't know it was me. Right? When I felt the energy, and 20 people who didn't go to school with me, jumped me down there. never forgot it. And I've always learned to tune into that feeling. And that energy, so it is there. It's interesting that you pick that up.

You call it an energy and you call it feeling the feeling or that your mother could feel and when you say state you mean you don't mean geographic state? You mean emotional state or psychological state? Yes. So how do you get that information? Is it you? Is something do the hair stand up on the back of your arm? Do you hear a voice? Do you? You know, we you? Did you just mentioned some people? There's Claire audience, there's, there's clairvoyance, there's clairsentience. So do you, how does it come to you the information,

sometimes it's just in my gut, I feel it. There are other times that they're just something is bothering me, you know, the times out. So for example, I sleep with a pen and pad on the side of the bed, because I'll be awakened in the middle of the night. And it's just right there. Sometimes it's pictured right in my mind, I can see it and feel it. And it's accurate. And I know it,

I imagine that helps you so much in being an agent of change. Because I imagine people sense it from you. But I also imagine the fact that you're willing to receive information from sources that are not of the intellect, or of the academic or, or of the practical world is an advantage in all of the work that you do.

Yes, absolutely. My grandmother played the numbers. I'm not sure if you know what that was back in the day. But you know, look at the horse races and take the first three numbers of the pot. And that was the number of people put their money on those three numbers. And the number after that was the other number that they wanted to do a straight in box, however they called it Well, whenever I needed. I got my first conga drum, I was about nine years old. And then I was going to be playing with a band and I needed a really nice fiberglass Latin percussion drum. And at that time, it was at Rondo's music on route 22. And it was $125. And that was a lot of money back then. And my mother says, I don't have that kind of money. And I said, Grandma, I really want that from she said, Well, let me pray on a baby. And it played a number. Just don't to worry, Grandma. Gotcha. And about a week later, Grandma hit the number. And Grandma handed me in my mom $125 to go get my drum. I always knew she had that energy, great grandma just could do it. Grandma made it work. She made things right. So I've learned not to reject the information that comes to me from other sources, unless it's dark. And there have been a couple of times in a police department with total strangers have come to my office to see me and I could see a cloud around them. And I instantly would not meet with them. And I would say to my office all the time.

So this human is just a surprise at every turn. It is not every day that you get a visual of a police sergeant saging his office to get rid of the bad juju. And he's not just surprising on the job. He's surprising in his personal life two because even though he shared that he explicitly planned the conception of his first child, he went down a totally different road for his other kids. So so let's go back to now could you walk me through how each of your adopted daughters?

Yes, so juris was the first one that I legally adopted. My mom helped me to raise all of them dresses. This was brought to the Police Athletic League inside the police department by her therapist, because she was violent. She's diagnosed bipolar schizoaffective, one of six children violently molested as a child at four years of age, and had been in a group home from four years old until the 12. When I met her and she punched you in the face if you confronted her that's how she responded. She was a little thing about a size four. But she would fight you all the time because she said she was always the youngest one in the group home. So she had to fight. Well, they brought it to me and says well, we want to know cuz she joined the program. I said, Yes, we'll put on the boxing team. He said she punches. Let's see if she likes to punch consistently. And so usually, when we put them on a boxing team, it's two months before we let them get in a ring with anyone with the headgear and the heavy gloves. But I called up to the gym and said, put her in the ring today, make her run the two miles first, then put her into ring, put the headgear on and make sure she's protected and put the 16 ounce gloves on. And she tells the story to this day, she said when that boy punched her in the face, and she fell back with those, that headgear, she said, that's what it feels like when I've been punching people in the face all these years. Never knew, because no one had ever hit her. Because you can't use physical force or corporal punishment with children who award to the state. So no one would could ever hit her back. So that was her first wake up, but she stayed in the program. And she started coming for six months. So she bought a photo album, which I later learned is called a um, it's a life book that we go. And it looked like a photo album, but it's just her journey. And we had it in the in the my file cabinet locked up, put the pictures, some of them weren't very pleasant. They were nefarious. And so we didn't want people seeing in these suggested poses. So she came in one day Sarge, I need my photo album. I said, why? She said, Because I'm getting ready to age out the system. I'm 1314 years old, they told me that I need to find my own forever family before I aged out. And so I said, Girl, please, you don't need a photo album. I know what to look like, I'll adopt you. And she started crying. And I didn't know what I'd said. So we took put all the kids out the office, I had kept a female officer with me. We closed the door. We said why are you crying? She said, because I've been wanting to ask you for six months to adopt me. But I thought you would say no. So then I started crying. Because I was now stuck, right? And we teach our children that your word is your bond and your bond is your life. And you should give you a light before you break your word. And so at that point, I knew I was going to be adopting a child. So it was a very long process. It was very difficult. It took me 18 months to adopt her. There were many roadblocks put before me. And so they did a lot of stuff to discourage me from adopting her. And then we finally pushed the envelope and I was able to adopt her at 14 years of age.

Was that an impulse on your part? It was

It wasn't my plan. It was those boundaries we talk about I've given my word. impulsively. I did Bugatti because I didn't know that. That's what I was saying at the time. But once I realized how sincere she was, how could I not do it?

Wow. How has she changed you?

Oh my god. So she tells everyone that she's she's now 31 years of age. She's like I was dad's hardest challenge. Because I fought with dad, I kicked I cut him with my foot. I ran away. I did all sorts of things. I told him one time I was he was he was 16. I don't live here anymore. There's too many rules, too many boundaries. And I don't want to live on them. So when you're not looking, I'm gonna run away. And some people, some people said what did he say? He said, You don't have to run, you could walk. And I opened the door you can leave. So she said she went to get a jacket. And some socks. He's whatever you declare your freedom in is what you're leaving. Give me that jacket. I paid for it. You're gonna have that T shirt, those sweat pants, and you can put on a pair of sneakers. I'll see you later. And she walked out the door. Now she you know, she said it was cold. And she realized that she made some bad choices. Eventually had a pastor call me saying, you know, brother delay says she'd like to come back home. She's welcome to come home. But just help her understand. She's coming home to the same rules that she walked away from. And so she has her own child now who's six years old, Jayla, and she's like Daddy, I learned so much from you. And, and grandma, she says I'm so thankful that you never gave up. I used to have a saying with her. I used to tell her that I will be your dad, even when you're no longer my daughter. And she said she didn't understand it then. But when life was difficult for her in other places, as she's become a grown woman and travel, but she says I realize what you meant. She sucks. I was angry and yelling and screaming and cursing and you never gave up on me. You continue to love me. So I now know that you stayed my dad, even when I wasn't being your daughter. So she changed me in that regard that you learn that there are things that you don't have any control over. And as a woman taught me when I was training to adopt her because in New Jersey, they make you go through training. She said you will be your child's only advocate. Well,

I was gonna ask you if if that made you feel pressured in any way, but clearly you adopted three more children after that. So tell me about that.

After her was lawan lawan is now 33 years old. She has two twins Monroe and Mason. And then she has on her oldest son our first son. De lacy is 11 years old. Her mom's Jamaican dad's to make dad's doing life in prison. And her mom brought it to the police department. And they brought her there to have her arrested and she says in Sarge, call me Sarge with a Jamaican accent. She said Assad would not lock me up. He said let me put her in a program. She's been all over the world. She's now a seamstress. She taught herself to sew because my grandmother had a Singer sewing machine in the basement And then she sent herself to fit, and she's doing pretty well for himself. The next one was, um, Ashley, Dominique. So Dominique actually live with us as well. And Dominique was the one that really got away. She's black and Puerto Rican. I just heard from her for the first time since my mom passed in 2012. This year, she called me about a month ago. And she said, this is dominant, which dominate. Dominique Blanding your daughter, I said, Oh, where have you been? And so she's she spent some time away. And she's now pulling her life together. So those were the three who lived with me. And then of course, we had another one by Sema, who didn't live with us because her parents wouldn't allow it. But by SEMA stayed close. And she's now 33 years old, just graduated the police academy, and calls me dad, and I've been in her life all of her life. And then my son, Kareem, Kareem, is actually now. I just saw him last month, his mom got married, and Kareem is now 38 years of age. He's living in Atlanta. And he's doing the same thing. Now he has two children of his own, and took in two of his sister's children. He's like, Dad, this is what you taught us. You took all of us in, you raised us. We weren't even your kids, you just took us in and raised us and did what you need to do to make ends meet. And so for that, I have to give it back to other people.

Did you ever have moments of thinking, forgive my friends? What the hell am I doing? Yes, definitely.

I asked myself, How did I get here, they cost me a relationship wasn't my marriage, but they one of the relationships. At that time, someone I've been with for a long time. She said, Listen, I don't want to work with other people's problems. That's what she told me. And so my children rallied around me became the rallying cry. You know, this is our dad. And we're brothers and sisters, not by blood, but because he took us in. And so that's kind of how it went. And that's how it's been. Now, they get along very well, now, with my birth child, but early on, they did not. And of course, for my birth child, again, we talked about the change. The difficulty was in me, understanding her discomfort. I mean, we got a chance to talk about it over the last couple of years. And she said that I thought you were replacing me with these children. And it wasn't that I was replacing her it was that her mom and I split when she was 14, and I had no control over it. And no matter what I tried to settle with her mom, it didn't go the way it didn't go the way I wanted it to go. And I didn't have access. And so I had to accept for a couple of years what it was. But by the time she was 1819, we were able to reconnect. And I have not been able to get rid of a sense of what all of these children have done for me, is helped me understand that we got to give each child what they need. And their needs vary. Sometimes they're similar, but often they're buried, someone said to me last week, you know what good is being a black cop today? You know, what does you haven't been an officer for 20 years, what has been the benefit. There's still beating and killing people. And I said to them, but let me name these children for you who are exponentially they are power multipliers. Because if I had not been in their lives, they would not be doing the work they do in other people's lives. That's the impact is exponential. You can't put a measurement on it.

How do you get through those moments of discomfort like yours apart from your daughter,

that was tough. What I did to get through those, it was about two years, I was unemployed, 18 months. And I was struggling with that. And I was struggling with no connection. And so I would make myself Save $200 Every month toward my daughter and I would give, I would go and buy a money order and put it in a drawer and fill it out with her mother's name on it, and just have the receipts. And so I knew that there will come a time when we would talk. And when we finally did, I had a stack of money orders like this. And I says I've been saving this to give to you guys. Because the one thing I value is being a good dad

you talked about your first adoptive daughter leaving or running away or walking away. And then you talked about explaining to her via the pastor that if she returned, there would be the same rules that there were before. And I wonder if you can draw lines for me between rules and change as you see it.

So I think that all of us need boundaries. There's got to be some lines in the sand that you cannot cross. And there also have to be some lines in the sand that you must be pushed over. Right. So it different types of lines. And so when I think in terms of rules, for example, this is a kid that I met at 12 years old that was sleeping with a 24 year old man smoking marijuana drinking alcohol. There's got to be some rules in the sand. Right? You can't smoke here. You need help. We'll get to treat You can't get drunk here. You can't have sex with grown men here. That's just what it is. Now, if we can help you stay in the box, then we can also help you toward change. And the change that we'll make will be around the goals that you say you want in your life. So for example, we learned later that she suffered from dyscalculia, which is dyslexia with numbers. No one knew that. And she didn't know that. But what it means is that you can't do small number counting in your head and mental math. And so my mom developed my mom was the one that actually diagnosed it. And then a doctor says, yeah, that seems to be what our problem is there. And so my mom would say to her baby, any morning that one and one is adding up to three, I want you to tell grandma, and Grandma is gonna be right there at your side. And so that was her way of communicating that she was out of balance, or that a chemicals were off, she would say, Grandma one and one is three today. Or we saw her unkempt, and we saw her hair not done if we saw her unwilling to get in the water, to take a shower to take a bath. Right, those were all indicators, but they were also lines in the sand. Babe, you have to wash every day, you have to get out the bed, you have to do your hair. And so that helped her get to the change. She still has the diagnosis. But she now understands medication monitoring, she's able to identify a program for herself. She recognizes that she will always be in counseling always need to be balanced. But she's able to do that for herself now.

That's incredible. I love one and one is three today. Because to me, it's it's like name it and claim it, name it and tame it. It's it's giving someone language Yes. For something that's maybe it's something that's hard for them or something that they're embarrassed about. And it has shame attached to it. But I think when we can give them language that's more metaphorical and more poetic, and, and comes from a place of authority. My experience of this is one on one is three today. Yes, it it moves, it shifts the lines, yes, of the box a little bit for the maybe I'd love that what you said about a line, we can't cross an a line, we have to be pushed over. What are some lines that you've needed to be pushed over?

I struggle with change. My mother told me that every time I've transitioned, it was difficult. I went kicking and screaming from kindergarten to first grade from eighth grade to ninth grade from 12th grade to college. And every degree and I would agree, I've just learned to accept it more. You know, one of my staff used to say Dr. Davis, nothing seems to bother you. I said everything bothers me. But you never get to see me sweat. She's like, why? Because I can't change it. And so therefore, I'm not going to spend a lot of energy fighting it. For me, some of the lines being pushed over was accepting that I wasn't going to have a relationship with my daughter and her mother until the time was right. I had to be pushed over those lines. Because one of the hardest parts for all of us is to accept being rejected. It's difficult. No one wants to be rejected. What I learned though, is my mom used to tell me if you're thinking about her, she's thinking about you. She's just not telling you. And then what I learned later on in life is that you survive based upon the team that you're on. So you've got a good team around you, meaning support system, people that are going to tell you the truth about you going to support you and help you move forward, you'll probably outlast the pain, because you'll do things that will eventually get you over that line, which is and I tell young men this when I'm talking to them, especially men that are aggressive with women, that if you can trust what I'm telling you, you'll wake up one day and the pain will be gone. You won't even know weird when you won't even remember that you had it. But you got to take all of these steps in that direction Kemosabe if you want to win,

he talked before about this idea of what I would call the divine feminine and the divine masculine and how it's in all of us. But we're at such an interesting time culturally with me too. And maybe men bearing the brunt of a pendulum that's swinging, you know, in a way towards saying, by virtue of being a man, you have wronged me, you know, a lot of reaction toward the patriarchy. How can how can that change? How can how can men and women change together in a way that is good for both? And also everyone who's not on the binary spectrum? Because I say that and I realize we don't all identify only in one way or the other.

And that becomes challenging, I think and I'll even not even take men and women, I'll take black men and women, because that is a conversation in and of itself. And so I think that at the very core of it, it is that duality it is that mutual respect. It is that not letting anyone define our reality. It's those principles that we practice in my home of Kwanzaa right what come The mind for me is Kouji chakulia, self determination to name create, define and speak for ourselves rather than to allow others to do it for us. Just the very experience of black men and women in this country requires us to be united. Because you could not ever have a baby that looks like me light bright, damn near White, unless someone's putting cream in the coffee and loving it. And it's not just McDonald's. The reality is that we come from a legacy of oppression, struggle, rape, violence, and pillage. In this country, that experience is real, and black men being castrated, castigated, vilified, and horrified, wife taken at anybody's leisure when they choose to. And so some of this struggle in my community is man made, and not necessarily made by those who are victims. But because we don't have a historical analysis and understanding of how we come to be adversarial. It gets exacerbated. And with each generation and their removal from the true understanding of that, it gets even worse. Not all of our young people know that because that's not being taught in schools. I mean, they keep talking about critical race theory, no one wants to teach critical race theory, we want to teach the truth about America's history. Because if you teach America's history, it is black history. There's nothing else to teach. What are we talking about? You brought people here, you had free labor, you had a 400 year Headstart, and then you say, pick yourself up by the bootstraps? Well, let me tell you about back and build me a few houses. And let me tell your generations to come pick yourself up by the bootstraps. It's an unfair argument. It's an unrealistic perspective, this is with a truth in the heart of it lies right in the struggle for liberation in the struggle for human dignity. But we have to be honest, we have to find the strength and the courage of conviction to have those courageous conversations, what are we going to do differently?

I think that's great. I keep thinking about staying in the conversation, when there's disagreement and staying in it in such a way that you've talked about where even if you have feelings, and you're really ruffled, you don't let them out necessarily, you don't speak from that place you accept that the other person has a different point of view, and you try to you try to hear their point of view and understand their point of view. It's, it's really hard.

Well, Stephen Covey says, in Seven Habits of Highly Effective People seek first to understand then to be understood, not the joy, the group, who did her research on the West Coast, and her book, his post traumatic slave syndrome. She says that when we talk about healing, and the country must heal, we must first commit when we go into the room that no one can leave the room. That's got to be the first commitment. If we're going to talk about healing you and I black and white man and woman buying in non binary and binary, we must agree that no one can leave the room. That's the first commitment.

I like that, because it's a rule. Again, it's a parameter. And it demands a commitment on both ends. It demands engagement. That's correct.

If in fact, you want me to change, right, it's like going to church and they asked you to come, the doors of the church are open, some people are afraid to walk up to the altar. So they say somebody will come and get you raise your hand and we walk down together, she says, so if you want me to help you want me to let you help me heal, then I need to see you go through the door first. And if you go through the door, I'll go through the door. And so what we do in this room is that we all commit to staying in the room. And whichever door we're gonna go through, we're going through together or not at all.

It is a hugely powerful metaphor for our country at this moment to think about it. We talk about borders and immigration and who we let in and who we want out. But we're not committed right now to staying in the room with each other. But if we thought about our country as a room that we all had to stay in,

right? Change is difficult. I told you change as a child of conflict in and so folks aren't prepared for that. Folks want a nice change? Not wanted? Yeah. No. It's like, you can't go to war and it's gonna be a bloodless. No, it's something we're gonna lose somebody on our side. Period.

You mentioned that bringing the children into your life cost your relationship. Tell me about some of the other sacrifices you made.

It there were economic. I mean, I'm not wealthy. I mean, I mean, I guess I would, most folks would care characterize me in the beginning of my career. I started off making $18,661 That's what I signed up for. had to also take care of mom. Right while taking care of children. The sacrifices were around folks accusing me. I testified against a black mayor and a black chief for a white captain in a federal discrimination lawsuit in 1997. Because I was asked to tell the truth. It was one of the most difficult things to do in my career. And it was black officers who came to me for him. And the black community wanted to understand why did you do this, and I told them point blank, if you saw me testing testify for white Captain against a black mayor, and a black chief, that white guy was right twice. And as painful as it was for me, because all my colleagues on the other side, I have to walk my talk. There's no black, right and a white, right. It's just right, and there's wrong. And I've learned that in this journey, it's also a price to pay for that. Because the reality is that when a people have been oppressed for so long, in a country, there's an inclination to want to give the oppressor or someone who looks like the oppressor, there come up is and that I understand, but what I also understand the laws of reciprocity, and I recognize it, what you place into the universe is what you get back. And so if you want love for your children, then you must be loving. If you want compassion, then you must be compassionate. And you don't give it to the people that you want it from you give it and put it into the universe, and it will come back to you tenfold. And so it's difficult to some of these decisions were for me and have continued to be I know that I must make them because they're the right position. I often tell my people, you must do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. Period. Didn't say anything about race, gender, age, color, like or dislike, do the right thing, because it's the right thing to do. And those are the lessons that have been missed when we see folks that we know are gaslighting people, whether we're talking about elections, whether we're talking about people attacking the Capitol, whether we're talking about people outright attacking and killing police officers, and we're going to tell people you don't don't believe your lying eyes. And the reason they're able to do that now is because when it was done with Rodney King in 1991, that's exactly the playbook strategy that was used on the black and brown community, don't believe your lying eyes. And this is why they move the court case at that time with Rodney King to Simi Valley, which was a cop friendly community and they were not convicted there. So we know it works. And so now we're seeing it to the 10th power, because it's money and value and benefit in lying and stealing and conniving regardless of the truth. And we cannot sacrifice the truth for anyone.

I'm just breathing with that. What brings you joy?

Oh my god watering my lawn. Um, I do that every morning and every afternoon. Watching the underdog win brings me great joy. great joy. When I see young people that are on fire for learning and fire for justice and social justice and change that makes me happy when I see folks across the genres. Dr. Francis Cresswell Singh says, in the ISIS papers, that there's nine people, every activities that are dominated by white supremacy, and if we want real change in this country, that we must get into those institutions. And we must either tear them down and rebuild them all. We must reform them. And they are economics, education, entertainment, labor, law, politics, sex, war and religion. I see your hands up.

No, I'm giving you an Amen. Yes. And you were and then and the way you rattle them off, I give you an amen to that too.

Yes, seeing people in those areas, making progress brings joy.

Before I give you some rapid fire questions, and we wrap up, I want to ask you, I don't know anyone who's had a an audience with both Nelson Mandela and the Pope.

And the Pope. Yeah. Winnie Winnie Mandela, the wife. Yes. And the pope Pope John Paul the second. Yes.

Did those experiences change you? If so, how?

I would say that it gave me a different perspective. The meeting with Winnie Mandela changed me significantly. Because I had six days with her. So that's, that's why I'm to be in the company of Winnie Mandela was mind boggling for me. She would tap me on the face and say, My dear son, let me explain this to you. And she would just explain things, especially things that I didn't understand things I didn't agree with. We talked about Nelson Mandela in the context of what she thought relative to his new presidency. And what she said was that he did not have control over the apparatus in South Africa, that he was only the president ceremonially. Because because they had not given up the power, and she was right.

You don't seem like someone who needs invigorating from an external source. But did she invigorate you?

Oh, she's exciting to me because she was a woman with courage. She was feisty. She reminded me of the women that I come from your mother, my mother's your mommy, my grandmother, I often have said strongest black men I've ever known had been the black women in my life, because they were fighters.

Okay, we're gonna do some rapid fire. And this might be hard for you, because I call it pepper. Okay, good. So

we're just the first thing that comes to your mind. Don't think just saying fill in the blank. Change requires blank, courage. If you could go back in time, and change one thing and only one thing about your past, what would it be? Wealth? What is one thing big or small? You would like to see change in the world?

The truth about black people?

What is one thing big or small? You hope never changes?

The courage, the conviction in the strength of black people?

What is one small or superficial thing you'd like to change about yourself?

My tolerance for nonsense?

Not very superficial. But okay. How often? Do you change your toothbrush?

It's changed for me. I would never change it. But it's changed for me.

Oh, that's funny. Okay, I think I know the answer to this one. But I'll ask it anyway. Are you a change maker, a change seeker? Or a change resistor?

I'm a change maker for sure.

What does your next big change look like? And feel free to be aspirational or fantastical or imaginative about that one?

I'll give the answer that Dr. Jones brown gave me She wants me to make all of the impact that I made as a practitioner in law enforcement and advocate in the academic world.

Academia needs you. What would you say to someone who is looking to create a personal change that lasts.

Start with the small things, don't go beyond your means, find some small global goals and get some small victories. And then as you start getting better at this built in accountability partners, look around your circle, if you're the smartest one in your circle, you're in a slow circle, or not very bright circle. So you need to surround yourself with what you want to become and who you want to become. And then finally, if you become who and what you want to become, then pass the baton so that we can bring people forward.

You've been through a lot of changes professionally, you've had a lot of different careers. You've been through a lot of personal changes, some of which we've talked about today. What remains the same or unchangeable about you, Dr. Davis,

my integrity. I believe in humanity, my willingness to risk it all for taking a principal position, my love of people and humanity. My understanding that somebody prayed for me, that's why I'm still here. My understanding that folks in the white community sacrifice for me, as well as black and brown and other people. I understand the value of diversity. I recognize that it's going to take coalitions and stakeholders from all walks of life for us to be successful. So we will either all rise together, or we will all be doomed to where we're going now.

You're such a wonderful, beautiful, generous teacher. I feel like I could go to your class every week and write furiously with my pen and paper. I just want to thank you so much. Thank you so much for joining me today.

Thank you for having me, I appreciate it.

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