In this episode of the Future Proof HR podcast, Thomas Kunjappu sits down with Laura McGann, Chief People Officer at Prosci, to talk about AI adoption, change management, and why HR has a central role to play in helping organizations build the capability to change.

Laura explains why AI is not just another software rollout. Because the technology keeps evolving, and because it reshapes how people work, trust information, make decisions, and build skills, AI adoption requires more than access to new tools. It requires leaders to pay attention to the people side of change, from awareness and desire to knowledge, ability, and reinforcement.

The conversation uses Prosci’s ADKAR model as a practical lens for understanding where AI adoption often gets stuck. Laura breaks down the difference between training people once and creating ongoing learning in the flow of work, while also sharing her own experience with unlearning, building AI knowledge, and becoming a “learner in public.”

Thomas and Laura also discuss what this means for HR’s future, including capability building, culture, leadership, data governance, role-specific AI use cases, and the CHRO/CIO partnership. Laura argues that HR and IT need deeper interdependence, but not a merger of expertise, because AI transformation depends on both technology and human systems.

Topics Discussed:

• Why change management is shifting toward change adoption and change success
• How constant change is pushing organizations to build change agility and resilience
• Why AI adoption is different from a traditional software rollout
• How HR leaders can use ADKAR to identify where employees are stuck
• The role of awareness, desire, knowledge, ability, and reinforcement in AI adoption
• Why user proficiency and learning in the flow of work matter for AI ROI
• How unlearning helps HR leaders rethink familiar processes like data synthesis
• Why HR must lead capability building, culture, leadership, and change for AI
• How leadership vision, governance, and functional tech stacks shape AI adoption
• Why CHRO/CIO partnership matters, even if the roles should not merge
• How AI is pushing HR teams to rethink job descriptions, skills, and ways of working

If you are an HR leader trying to move your organization from AI access to AI adoption, this episode offers a practical way to think about the behavior change, leadership support, and cross-functional partnership needed to make AI useful at work.

Additional Resources:

• Cleary’s AI-powered HR Chatbot
• Future Proof HR Community
• Connect with Laura McGann on LinkedIn

We own things that make AI stick, right?

2

We own capability building.

3

We have a huge fingerprint on culture, on

leadership, on change management, right?

4

Some of those things.

5

And I really do think that as we're

architecting organizations of the

6

future, we really do need to play

a very strong leadership role

7

Thomas Kunjappu: They keep

telling us that it's all over.

8

For HR, the age of AI is upon

us, and that means HR should

9

be prepared to be decimated.

10

We reject that message.

11

The future of HR won't be handed to us.

12

Instead, it'll be defined by those

ready to experiment, adopt, and adapt.

13

Future Proof HR invites these builders to

share what they're trying, how it's going,

14

what they've learned, and what's next.

15

We are committed to arming HR

with the AI insights to not

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just survive, but to thrive.

17

Hello and welcome to the Future Proof

HR podcast, where we explore how

18

forward-thinking HR leaders are preparing

for disruption and redefining what it

19

means to lead people in a changing world.

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I'm your host, as always,

Thomas Kunjappu CEO of Cleary.

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Today's guest is Laura McGann,

the Chief People Officer at

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Prosci.

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Laura leads

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Prosci

25

people strategy and brings deep

expertise in change management

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culture and leadership development.

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She works closely with organizations

navigating large scale transformations,

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and is currently helping guide, Prosci's

own approach to AI adoption and change.

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Laura, welcome to the podcast.

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Laura McGann: Thank you.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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I'm really excited

about this conversation.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Absolutely.

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So before we go into, a little bit more

about AI and change and everything that

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you're doing at Prosci, could you just

give us a little bit of context about

36

what the organization is because it's

pretty interesting to me at least.

37

Laura McGann: Yeah, so Prosci

has been around for over 30 years

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now, and we started as a research

organization, just studying

39

essentially what makes some change

projects more effective than others.

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And eventually people said, gosh,

you should really train us in this

41

now that you have all this research.

42

And so we.

43

Reluctantly, which was funny for a change

company, but we reluctantly started

44

doing training and then over time,

and I was actually a client of Prosci

45

and I was one of those clients saying,

we need way more help than training.

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We really need help with the full kind

of adoption of changes and consulting

47

and advising, and don't just train me

but really come alongside and help.

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With the change.

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And so I experienced that as a client.

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And now I have joined Prosci

as, our Chief People Officer.

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And now we do everything.

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We do research, we do training,

we do consulting and advisory, and

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we also have, enterprise licenses.

54

So you can actually, use our

research and kind of make it

55

your own through a license.

56

Thomas Kunjappu: Pretty

interesting, transformations

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and changes over the years.

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I imagine, most people here,

listening in, the concept of change

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management isn't, foreign, to them.

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But tell me a little bit

about the approach anyway.

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And I know there's the the ADKAR model,

which I think it's Prosci is a little bit

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famous for, and it's pretty interesting,

but maybe we can talk about that a

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little bit so that we can frame some of

the things that we want to talk about,

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changes what we're talking about in

terms of what you're doing internally at

65

the organization, framed against that.

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Laura McGann: Yeah.

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And I think we're at a really

interesting time when you're

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talking about change, right?

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the terms change management.

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I think some people, especially in your

audience, are very familiar with, in

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terms of being in hr, managing change,

I think we typically think about

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communication plans and training plans.

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That's just something that we, in hr.

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Naturally are good at.

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It's probably a lot of why

we came into this field.

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What's happening now I think is

organizations are really thinking about

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just overall change, agility, right?

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Change, resilience change is constant.

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So how do we not only manage very specific

projects that we are changing within

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our organization, but just how do we

overall build a change agile organization?

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so there's, a lot to

unpack there, I think.

82

But, we're at a really interesting time

when you about change, success, change,

83

adoption, all of those buzz if you.

84

Thomas Kunjappu: I like that.

85

Okay.

86

I'll bite.

87

what, tell me more about what is

change adoption, and I guess how

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is change management changing,

lately and change adoption?

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You just mentioned, seems like a,

newer buzzword, at least to me.

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Laura McGann: Yeah, for sure.

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and it's interesting 'cause I've

been in this field for 20 plus

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years and I think when you use the

word change management, some people

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can roll their eyes a little bit.

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So oh, here we go.

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Change management.

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I think that's because, folks

talk loud about what is.

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What is change?

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What do we do?

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And really that's not

the most important thing.

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The most important thing with change

management is what it delivers.

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So I've definitely seen that eye

roll many times, especially in

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HR and working with executives.

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it's a buzzword.

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Definitely connotes certain things

based on your experience with it.

105

Sometimes that's really good.

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Sometimes that's really bad.

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I think when change is well managed.

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Nobody knows what was done.

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It's the, the broccoli in the,

in the cookies if you will.

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Or I dunno what the right term is there.

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When change is done it's

not noticeable, right?

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That's when change is done.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

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Laura McGann: I guess just a

level status for today, right?

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Change management is about addressing

the people side, not the technical

116

side of any sort of change.

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And that change can be anything.

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So an acquisition, a new org design, a

new benefits program, a new leader coming

119

in, a new ERP system, a new HRIS, or

even a new capability like ai, like a

120

new, definitely wanna talk about today.

121

So at its core, change management.

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Change adoption, right?

123

It's really about understanding

and influencing human behavior.

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Transitions.

125

So not just focusing on the technical

side, but really focusing on the

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people and making sure you get a return

on investment by ensuring that the

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changes that you're trying to drive

are adopted and used effectively.

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So again, much more than just

training and communications.

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Those are obviously really essential,

but that's not all there is when we're

130

really talking about change management.

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Thomas Kunjappu: So let's take

that concept to this other comment

132

you made, which is we're in a

very interesting time, right?

133

With change Management.

134

What are the newer demand signals

that you guys are seeing at, Prosci?

135

What are the new forms

of change management?

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or, the types of things that.

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Organizations are finding

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Laura McGann: Yeah.

139

I think we used to, and I don't even

know what timestamp to put on this,

140

we used to say, okay, we have two

changes happening, and there was

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a really predictable beginning and

middle of, end of those two changes.

142

Those times are no longer,

I think we all know this.

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It's, ongoing, it's perpetual.

144

There's maybe on a given day.

145

I don't know, three to 15 changes

that are happening to you for you

146

or that you're driving yourself.

147

especially in the HR organization where

we're probably driving some of our own

148

changes or receiving other people's

changes, or we are supporting changes that

149

are happening within our business lines.

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And so that is just a big shift or

completely overwhelmed by change and

151

everything that needs to happen there.

152

But then I think also it's much

more about not how we're managing

153

it, because honestly there's lots

of approaches, to how you might.

154

Manage change depending on the breadth

or the depth of what the change is.

155

Some of the changes are

really small, right?

156

And we can just roll up those

other changes quite large.

157

having a huge impact on many

aspects of, how we work.

158

So at Prosci in particular,

we've really spent a lot of time.

159

Talking about and thinking about what is

the language that we need to be using.

160

we are known as a change management

firm, but even ourselves are moving much

161

more into using the words like change,

adoption, and change success because it's

162

not as much about managing the change it.

163

You need to do that.

164

But it's also really about how do we

actually adopt all of the changes that

165

are coming at us, and also how do we, if

we're gonna put efforts and resources into

166

managing change, are we actually getting.

167

which is really where ROI comes

from and really, you're thinking

168

about all of the things that we need

to do on a day in, day out basis.

169

It's figuring out what really

matters about this change and

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what's the behavior change that

you're really looking for, right?

171

Making sure that individuals really

embrace and use whatever the change

172

is or the set of changes are to

the fullest, potential really.

173

Thomas Kunjappu: In 2025, a lot

of organizations have opened

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their eyes towards the level of

AI adoption they need to get to.

175

And almost no one is just looking

away anymore, I would say.

176

But then the question is what do we do

with it and how do we actually get to a

177

point of, success, whatever that means.

178

what are you saying in, terms of,

adoption of AI and the change adoption

179

challenges associated there, especially

at scale, across organizations.

180

Laura McGann: Yeah.

181

I think the biggest difference

between AI and other kind of large

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scale changes, is AI is a cap.

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It's a big capability, right?

184

There's a lot of things that when we just

think about the technology of ai, And

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how that impacts not only humans, but

also other processes, other technologies.

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It's embedded in things.

187

So one of the things I've noticed

and that a lot of people are

188

talking about is there's no defined

future state that is static and.

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Predictable, right?

190

So it really does touch all of

these different parts of our lives.

191

It continues to evolve.

192

When we first started talking about it

a couple of years ago, even every new

193

release of, OpenAI, ChatGPT mean, it's

constantly updating and what you thought

194

it could do is not what it can do now.

195

so there's a lot of new

challenges, that we need to.

196

I really keep pace with all of them.

197

So not only just the technology, but the

cultural questions, the ethical questions.

198

people are asking really

important questions around job

199

security, around data privacy.

200

It's a whole new layer of change.

201

Complexity, right?

202

The learning curve is steep.

203

you can break it down into

some really tangible things.

204

You can get comfortable with

prompting, you can get comfortable

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with what data to put in.

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Whatever AI system you're

using, what not to put in.

207

you, can break it down and get

your arms around it, but AI.

208

Adoption is much more about how

we think and work, and that's a

209

different conversation than just

implementing a new HRIS, right?

210

Just implementing a new, it's a

little bit more like an org design

211

actually, if I think about it, right?

212

It really is something that is living

and breathing and you're really

213

having to negotiate and navigate

how you're working together with

214

ai, not just how you're using ai.

215

Thomas Kunjappu: Interesting.

216

Tell me more about why it's similar

to, org design you say, as opposed

217

to a rollout of a, new SaaS tool.

218

Laura McGann: Yeah it feels

much more living and breathing.

219

So I know in my own AI adoption, as

I've gotten more comfortable with it,

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it feels like a collaboration partner.

221

I've done a lot of work to really

understand, okay, what are the

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ways in which I used to work?

223

How are those going to be changing?

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We think a lot about.

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what is AI going to, what am

I gonna continue to do alone?

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What am I gonna do with my AI partners?

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And then what am I

gonna have AI do for me?

228

And especially when I think about that

with that feels more like I'm working

229

with a new AI intern or an AI colleague,

which is much more about organizational

230

dynamics and how do I partner with them?

231

When do I bring them in, when do I

do my own work and then collaborate.

232

So yeah, think that's a really

interesting, AI adoption.

233

It's a little more living and

breathing than maybe some of the

234

other changes we've, we struggled

with or benefited from in the.

235

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah.

236

Interesting.

237

So I think you're pointing to the

idea that it's not a one-time training

238

or change that you're managing and

you start with a neat beginning.

239

There's a need beginning, which is, oh,

I heard about this statue PT thing, and

240

now we need to figure out how it works.

241

But, the middle and the end is

extremely, unclear as new stories.

242

And the, technology changes almost

as fast it gets as it gets adopted.

243

and so maybe there's a, meta.

244

Skill there, which is about, I think you

mentioned the word resilience, right?

245

Or agility.

246

where the idea is the organization

overall is, inured to change or is,

247

always ready and is not surprised when

on a Tuesday, don't know, a new tool

248

is, released or a new workflow for

how their department does something

249

is gonna get completely changed,

even though they just worked on that.

250

thing six months ago.

251

So is there a, like a, meta level

skillset there that's that you can

252

almost work on or an organization

can improve and me even measurably.

253

So I.

254

Laura McGann: Yeah, I think there's

two, I think, one has to do just with

255

who we are as individuals and just

your overall adaptability and agility.

256

For instance your level of curiosity.

257

Do you really work on

honing your curiosity?

258

Which means, not assuming you know

everything and asking questions

259

and probing and really seeking

to learn that growth mindset.

260

Another interesting skill in that

would be unlearning, which is a

261

new skill I've been practicing, so

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Thomas Kunjappu: Huh?

263

Laura McGann: Unlearning literally 20

years of what got me to where I am today.

264

Regardless of your, job, you

learned how to do certain things

265

and adopting ai, you are unlearning.

266

You know what?

267

Data synthesis is something

I have really had to unlearn.

268

I used to be really good at

taking interview notes and.

269

Putting those together in my

own head and finding themes.

270

And it used to take hours

and days to do that.

271

Thinking about like

employee engagement surveys.

272

AI does that for you now in two minutes.

273

And you have to unlearn and

you have to figure out how to

274

trust somebody else's synthesis.

275

so unlearning is an interesting,

skillset as part of agility.

276

So I think that adaptability

is just a, an individual thing.

277

I think change management or whatever

we're gonna call it going forward and

278

having a structured approach to navigating

changes like this or big capability.

279

Enhancements in our organization

is also really important.

280

and I've definitely drunk the Prosci Ag

Car Kool-Aid because, when I was a client

281

of Prosci and as a HR practitioner, even

before then using various other change

282

management methodologies when you were so

overwhelmed by the amount of changes that

283

are happening, having a structured kind

of approach that helps you name feelings.

284

Name behavior changes, identify

change impacts, and have a common

285

language with other people.

286

Experiencing change, I think is an

organizational capability that yes, is

287

gonna help us navigate, navigate ai,

but can just help us navigate all of

288

the changes that we're going through.

289

Return to work, move to hybrid

whatever it happens to be.

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Thomas Kunjappu: Sure.

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Laura McGann: having that common

language and a structured approach.

292

Honestly it's gonna, the 80

20 rule gonna complex that.

293

Thomas Kunjappu: When you say some of this

might actually be innate and there's a

294

distribution amongst the human population

around some of these factors or, I dunno

295

if they're skillsets or behaviors like

curiosity unlearning agility in general.

296

If this kind of adoption is accelerating

does that just mean that there's certain

297

proclivities or genetic makeups that

are gonna be less relevant and less

298

competitive if you just zoom out at at a

humanity level, if every role and every

299

ev, every workplace is gonna demand this

and it's ever increasingly more uh, is

300

that What does that, mean mean for us as

we try to contend with that when every

301

workplace has a distribution across

302

all of these all of these

different behaviors, right?

303

Laura McGann: Yeah, and if you've

taken any personality assessments,

304

any predictive index, Myers-Briggs,

HPDI, you name it, right?

305

We all have.

306

Natural kind of tendencies

towards structure or visioning

307

or different types of thinking.

308

That yeah, can certainly put us in a place

that may be more excited about change

309

or maybe more cautious on change and

really want the details or really need to

310

understand the, big picture, high level.

311

I think what I've seen.

312

Even just in my career working with

so many different types of people

313

is that we, you never wanna collude

with your own profile, if you will.

314

So yes, we can all have tremendous

awareness around what makes us who we

315

are and what our motivations are and what

we're attracted to and not attracted to

316

in terms of work when it comes to change.

317

I think that's what we can do some

work for ourselves to understand,

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here's how I naturally come at this.

319

And then don't collude

with it though, right?

320

So you're always stepping into,

okay, based on what I know about

321

myself, what are some of the things

that I need to do differently?

322

Who are some of the people I need

to surround myself with, right?

323

That can maybe compliment or

balance out some of my natural

324

tendencies or my natural profile.

325

So I don't think anyone is at a

disadvantage or will be better at or

326

worse than other people at change.

327

I think it really is about

really understanding who.

328

Who we are and who other people right,

that we are working with, how we all

329

might approach change differently.

330

And then again, I think having that common

language so that we can talk about some of

331

those differences and challenges is gonna

be super helpful to make sure that we are

332

all at a level playing field, if you will.

333

When it comes to successfully adopting

change and realizing change outcomes.

334

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah, it's something to

be aware of for all all organizations and

335

HR teams as you're applying something.

336

But I would love to.

337

Go in a little bit more tactically

with you if, you will, Laura?

338

Laura McGann: Yeah.

339

Thomas Kunjappu: speaking

of the ad car model, right?

340

So if you're looking specifically for AI

adoption within an org, like how would

341

you think about could you walk me through

how you'd, think through this model for

342

Laura McGann: Yeah.

343

Thomas Kunjappu: Change

344

the organization level?

345

Laura McGann: yeah.

346

Perfect.

347

So ADKAR is an individual change model,

but it's really cool because you can

348

think about it very pragmatically.

349

So you think about it through each

kinda individual needing to go

350

through their own acar journey, but

then the organization as a whole.

351

'cause organizations are made

up of people needs to go through

352

the ag car journey as well.

353

And we're all gonna go

through that at different.

354

a lot of what we were just talking

about, depending on who you are, you're

355

gonna have your own acar challenges.

356

So let's break it down.

357

So ADKAR, if you've never heard of it,

it's a very simple acronym, A-D-K-A-R.

358

And it is this common language

that talks about it every point.

359

So A is for awareness.

360

And let's talk about through ai.

361

So this is about making sure that everyone

understands why AI is introduced, right?

362

So awareness, why are we doing this?

363

Why now?

364

What if we don't?

365

So a common challenge here is some

people might not see the need for change.

366

Like, why do I want to adopt ai?

367

Current processes work.

368

Yeah, I'm happy where I'm, I've

never had to use technology.

369

I'm really good at what I'm doing.

370

I've done my job, I've been

proficient without this.

371

So what are the benefits?

372

Why, again, why now?

373

What if we don't?

374

So that's a super important

part for awareness.

375

Why are we making this change?

376

Or why are we adopting h ai So.

377

D is for desire.

378

It's an interesting word.

379

Sometimes I replace desire

with the word decision.

380

So desire, right?

381

Once people are aware of what the

change is, they want to, they have to

382

find a reason to be part of the change.

383

So they have to have

a desire to be a part.

384

They have to make that decision

to participate in the change.

385

And at the point of desire, you

might find that some individuals are

386

really hesitant or resistant with ai.

387

If you're worried about how it

affects their job, they might

388

not be embracing of technology.

389

how does it work?

390

Where do I find it?

391

What are approved tools?

392

There's a lot of desire, kind

of barriers that can pop up.

393

environmental impacts, this

is a really interesting.

394

Place, right?

395

When we get, especially ai, it can

be very triggering to a lot of folks.

396

And so really helping people understand,

yep, you're aware, but what's your desire?

397

And you need to meet those kind

of thresholds, if you will, to get

398

people over some of those barriers

before you can move into the next.

399

Which is K Knowledge and Knowledge is the

one we're probably most familiar with.

400

It's really about the

skills, the information.

401

So this is usually

where training comes in.

402

A lot of the times communication plans

come in with our awareness and desire.

403

Knowledge is really like

those training plans.

404

so when it comes to ai, we

talked about this before, right?

405

Lack of training, lack of

resources, lack of time.

406

People really need to be prepared.

407

They need to be given training,

support, manager involvement.

408

and this is a really

interesting one with ai, right?

409

Because what's happening at work and

what's happening outside of work,

410

sometimes we're developing knowledge

of using AI for like creating recipes.

411

everything in our fridge.

412

but how do I take how I use AI to plan

my medications and use it at work?

413

That's a different knowledge,

different ability, than what you

414

may have with ai outside of work.

415

And sometimes it's very role specific too.

416

having that knowledge, that's a kind

of a big, piece before you get to that.

417

Next A in ag car, which is ability.

418

Ability is where the magic happens.

419

So ability is really where you

realize the benefits of a Change.

420

you know why you're doing it Through

awareness, you've desire, you

421

have the, desire to participate.

422

You've made the decision, you've got the

tools and knowledge, and now ability is

423

about putting everything into practice.

424

So with ai, you've gone to

the, through the training.

425

This is the most important thing about ai.

426

I think is this, and maybe it's

like the knowledgeability just

427

goes round and round, right?

428

Because you're always learning what

AI can do now, and then you want to

429

be experimenting with it, you wanna

be applying it, you need ongoing

430

support, ongoing opportunities.

431

Oh, let me try it with this.

432

Let me try.

433

With this, we have to make it okay

in organizations to experiment, to

434

fail, to try again, to ask questions.

435

so I think there's a really interesting

loop that we will be in using AG Car

436

as it relates to ai is we're gonna be

in that loop for a while just because

437

of how AI learns and how it advances.

438

just round out Ag car, the last.

439

R is about reinforcement.

440

So with any change we can't just

get to ability, we have to have

441

something or someone to reinforce

our ag card journeys so that we

442

don't slip back into old habits.

443

so recognizing, rewarding, effective

views, seeing where we really get

444

payoff and, gains, We are bringing

knowledge back into the organization

445

to reinforce the learning.

446

That's really what kind of

reinforcement is all about.

447

So Acar can be applied to any change.

448

I use it with my kids a lot.

449

They dunno it, but, oh yeah.

450

you can make small changes

with AG car and you can make

451

really big changes with AG car.

452

So it's a, it's also an interesting kinda

self-diagnostic tool we were talking

453

about before, like depending on who

you are and Your, propensity to change.

454

You can do a quick inventory

for yourself on like, where am

455

I stuck with a certain change?

456

Is it in awareness?

457

Do I know why we're doing this?

458

Is it in desire?

459

Have I decided to participate in it?

460

Do I have the knowledge and the skills?

461

Do I have an opportunity to practice

with my ability and am I getting

462

reinforcement for making this change?

463

Just a really quick where

am I stuck, with any change.

464

Thomas Kunjappu: This has been

a fantastic conversation so far.

465

If you haven't already done so,

make sure to join our community.

466

We are building a network of the

most forward-thinking, HR and

467

people, operational professionals

who are defining the future.

468

I will personally be sharing

news and ideas around how we

469

can all thrive in the age of AI.

470

You can find it at go cleary.com/cleary

471

community.

472

Now back to the show.

473

and I wanna explore more about

that, about your, your personal

474

sort of, journey as you, got into

leveraging AI in the workplace.

475

But before that, I'm curious.

476

Where in this model, do you think most

organizations are faltering today?

477

Especially with some of the headlines

that have that come in over the last,

478

quarter or two where, we've had the

initial wave of companies experimenting

479

with AI and then saying, let's go wall

to wall and get, give everyone licenses,

480

but then failing to see the ROI from it.

481

Laura McGann: Yeah.

482

Thomas Kunjappu: The headline

could be that the technology is.

483

or it doesn't, it's not as useful as

being sold, or it could be that there's,

484

a change management issue as well.

485

What do you, what are you guys saying?

486

Laura McGann: Yeah, I'm seeing two things.

487

what's interesting is we started

internally at Prosci piloting the

488

use of co-pilot, maybe two years ago.

489

And that's when co-pilot didn't

have had a lot of features and

490

functions, but not everything.

491

So the adoption, even when we

were applying a very structured

492

change management approach, some

of the adoption wasn't where we

493

wanted it to be in the utilization.

494

Fast forward, we're

relaunching it fully now.

495

Specific and taking a little bit

of a different approach because the

496

technology is so advanced and so it's

this kind of combination of managing

497

the change, introducing the technology

at the same time that you're trying to

498

realize the benefits, and that's that

kind of ongoing organic loop that is

499

a very unpredictable, so just from a.

500

We're trying to, drink our own champagne,

as I call it, when as we're doing this

501

internally at Pro, at the same time that

we're helping, clients and also doing some

502

research on this, So it's interesting.

503

One of the biggest areas that we

found in our very recent research on

504

struggling with the people side of

change and AI adoption is some folks

505

just treat it as a technology, right?

506

And as we've talked about

that's really missing.

507

The bigger, meta picture here.

508

Which is this is much bigger.

509

There's a lot of fear about replacing

jobs, disrupting work routines,

510

expertise, all of those things.

511

So not managing it as a change

is, definitely a big challenge.

512

User proficiency, huge challenge, right?

513

How do you actually implement the

right learning in the flow of work?

514

This is not one of those changes that

you can take people out, train them once.

515

And think you're done.

516

much bigger investment in training

and just how do you do the,

517

in the flow of work training.

518

and then just really understanding,

what's happening in your organization.

519

So is there a disconnect between

what executive leaders and how they

520

use it versus frontline workers?

521

We're seeing a lot of people are having a

very different experience and people are

522

not understanding how you use it in a very

role specific way, in addition to how you

523

use it just organizationally as a way the

whole organization will start to work.

524

so yeah, lots of interesting challenges.

525

Yeah.

526

Thomas Kunjappu: Yeah,

it seems like all across.

527

So, tell me about your, and you're talking

a little bit about, also about the the

528

HR function will need to like shift.

529

But as an HR leader tell me about your

personal journey, adopting, adopting ai.

530

Laura McGann: Yeah.

531

since, since I use Ag car, I think when

I went through my own awareness, desire,

532

knowledge, where you need to start, I

think the, it was immediately evident

533

to me when we started talking about

AI three years ago, like knowledge.

534

What is ai, right?

535

Chat, GBT is very reluctant to get on it.

536

building up my own knowledge so that I

could effectively talk about what is ai?

537

Is it just a tech, is it a capability?

538

What can it do?

539

Is it just LLMs?

540

Is it like, what is it?

541

So for me, the hardest part in my ag car

journey has been about knowledge for sure.

542

and that's something I am.

543

Continuing to focus on, talk about

this daily about just how do you

544

increase your knowledge listening

to, podcasts, talking to colleagues

545

unlearning, like we talked about before.

546

it's really a daily, practice,

to get to even better ability.

547

But yeah, I did not, think that

at this point in my career that I

548

would be so focused on technology.

549

so much has changed in, what we do

in hr and I definitely did not expect

550

this to be front and center of what I.

551

Thomas Kunjappu: Yet it is.

552

And I don't think you and many HR

leaders were not thinking that.

553

there's, you're always surrounded, in

by technology and the change management

554

world, you're helping at least a subset of

it is enabling your customers to, improve

555

their change management of technologies.

556

But, maybe there's something

unique going on here, right?

557

What is the role?

558

What should the role be of,

of the HR function in leading,

559

change towards AI adoption?

560

Laura McGann: Yeah.

561

This is a, meaty topic, I think.

562

I remember sitting at a conference

and, one of the leaders put out

563

there, HR leader said, if you are

not leading AI adoption, I don't know

564

what else you could be working on.

565

This is the most important thing

that HR can be doing right now.

566

And I literally wanted to, and this was

a couple years ago, but I was like, oh

567

no, because I was not, I honestly, I was

not a tech first leader at that point.

568

I was super comfortable using

tech, but I was not thinking about

569

like leading an AI transformation.

570

certainly was not on my radar

the past couple of years.

571

It has really forced me to

think about AI in particular.

572

Is much more about changing

how we work, right?

573

So the human system, the human

organizations that we're all a

574

part of AI really does change

how work gets done, right?

575

It's impacting our tasks, our roles,

our skills, how we make decisions,

576

what people trust, like all of those

things that are very in the HR lane.

577

and I do think we're

uniquely positioned to lead.

578

I don't think we can do it our own, and

we can definitely talk about some of the,

579

partners we really need to have in this.

580

We own things that make AI stick, right?

581

We own capability building.

582

We have a huge fingerprint on culture, on

leadership, on change management, right?

583

Some of those things.

584

And I really do think that as we're

architecting organizations of the future,

585

we really do need to play a very strong

leadership role in AI transformation.

586

Thomas Kunjappu: So if that's the

case, the previous point stands to

587

reason that you want to through a

personal journey where you're able

588

to walk the walk personally and have

some sense of what is going on and can

589

leverage the, technology, yourself.

590

With that said, let's talk about a

little bit about partnerships Right?

591

yes, there's a role, but, there's

a technology piece clearly to this,

592

which maybe that's centrally owned

by it maybe there's obviously there's

593

functional expertise as well, right?

594

How.

595

Sales versus marketing or operations

or HR itself, rolls out as a

596

practitioner, various use cases for ai.

597

It's distinct to the,

particular, kind of function.

598

there might be an AI level

strategy at the organization

599

Laura McGann: Yeah.

600

Thomas Kunjappu: where everyone, including

the CEO might be engaged in that.

601

So tell me a little bit about how you see

that more concretely through partnerships

602

and, the specific role, knowing that you

do want to be engaged and central to it.

603

Laura McGann: Yeah, I think the last thing

you just said there, having leadership at

604

the top and having a vision for a, AI in

your organization is absolutely critical.

605

And we have definitely seen in, our

client organizations, those that don't.

606

It's missing that awareness piece.

607

It's missing the why.

608

Why now?

609

What if we don't?

610

And so leadership sponsorship at

the top, absolutely critical part

611

of the leadership coalition to

make sure that this is done well.

612

Obviously talent, like you

said, technology organization.

613

And my, I have found, at least in, in

our org, and I would assume this is true

614

for many, organizations, that we all

have our own tech stacks, if you will.

615

And so yeah, marketing

has their own tech stack.

616

HR has our own tech stack.

617

All of these technologies are

embedding AI within those.

618

And so how do we get a full landscape?

619

Full picture of AI at work in our orgs.

620

Whether it's things that we've built,

with agents or whether it's just

621

technologies that we're already using

in performance management in Salesforce,

622

in whatever, whatever technology it is,

I think we've gotta connect the dots

623

across all of those platforms, arms, and.

624

Having those senior con, senior level

conversations around what do you have,

625

what do you have, what do you have?

626

And then connecting the dots to make

sure that we're incredibly aware of.

627

Maybe this is the boring side,

but like incredibly important.

628

the data privacy, the data protection,

the governance model around all of this

629

to help team members understand like

where they should be putting what data.

630

That's a really important part of

this and can definitely slow you

631

down if you haven't gone and done

that governance side of things.

632

When some of those are lined up, then

you can go more into the behavior change

633

and ways of working and, optimization.

634

there's something that's really I've had

to get more comfortable with, and that

635

is to be what I call a learner in public.

636

So I have committed to being the person

who are, is gonna raise my hand, speak

637

up and ask the really, The really stupid

questions, if you will, or to say,

638

Hey, I have no idea what this means.

639

Can you explain that?

640

And I will be the person.

641

So nobody else has to, feel embarrassed

about not knowing what something is.

642

And I think that is also a big, part

of hrs leadership role is to not stay

643

on the sidelines and learn in public

and make it okay to ask questions.

644

Because you've definitely got

folks in your org who are.

645

Got out of the gate quickly and

are using things and you have folks

646

who have not even touched it yet.

647

And I think in HR we've gotta navigate all

of those acar journeys, as individuals.

648

They are in a way that's scalable.

649

So I know if that, that answered all of

your questions, but we can definitely

650

go into some of that if you want.

651

Yeah.

652

Thomas Kunjappu: No that's pretty I

think comprehensive, all the different

653

challenges and or the different groups

that you're working with to solve

654

these layers layers of challenges.

655

I'd love to ask actually a little

bit more about where you think the

656

HR function itself is headed Right?

657

we're, we often hear we

need to do more with less.

658

it's a phrase constantly, right?

659

And maybe AI is a part of that, right?

660

Is because there's maybe an increasing

expectation that a lot of the work

661

that tip hours to do, maybe that

can Happen much more efficiently.

662

But then also you hear while things

all the way to, oh, maybe the HR and

663

IT functions can merge because in the

future you're, it's just it's an org

664

structure that includes, AI agents

and humans, and we need to manage it

665

all, together in some kind of way.

666

So what's your view of how

the HR function, can evolve?

667

What's the, change at the functional

level that's, that's coming for

668

Laura McGann: Yeah,

669

Thomas Kunjappu: of ai.

670

Laura McGann: you are hitting

on all my hot buttons here.

671

so doing more with less.

672

I think this is a really interesting

challenge, especially when

673

even before AI came freeing up

time for learning is, always a.

674

Hard, career development learning.

675

And so now we're saying, gosh,

now you have to learn ai.

676

And I think that is definitely one of

the hardest parts of the AI conversation.

677

So like in theory, yeah, if

we're more productive we can

678

have more time for learning.

679

but in reality how do we

actually make that happen?

680

It's a little bit of a chicken.

681

Chicken and the egg.

682

so leaders have to be so involved in this.

683

I think this is probably one of,

the biggest change management nuts

684

to crack, and we're just really

getting into this at pro size.

685

So I don't know if I've completely

solved it, but I feel like leaders

686

really have to get, roll up their

sleeves, get very involved in ai.

687

We need to.

688

Understand what the work is like

we talked about before, what is the

689

work that you need to continue to do?

690

That only you can do is purely human.

691

What is the work that you're

gonna do with AI and what is the

692

work that AI is gonna do for you?

693

and then really iterating on that

as we learn and apply and that

694

knowledge to ability journey.

695

so Leaders have to do that with

their teams in a very, hands-on way.

696

the tension between doing more

with less is, never gonna go away.

697

So I think we've gotta make these really

intentional trade-offs and there's a real

698

leadership kind of moment in all of this

to figure out where we can make better

699

choices about how we use our resources.

700

And I think HR plays a

really critical role in that.

701

So that's everything from coaching leaders

on how to have those conversations,

702

being, in the learning conversations,

hearing what's working, what's not

703

working, adjusting job descriptions, and

making it very tactical very quickly.

704

But I do believe all of our job

descriptions are being rewritten.

705

And so we actually need to rewrite them.

706

and it's gonna feel and look different.

707

You're talking about skills trying to

get a skills lens on all of our jobs.

708

And this is really just pushing

us even more into that space.

709

so I think that's pretty important.

710

And then I think the other piece

here is, again, this has been the,

711

theme of our conversation, right?

712

As HR organizations really

leaning into our role in.

713

Creating a change Agile organization.

714

there's so many things that we can

do to make that just part of our

715

organizational DNA and I think we

need to lead the way to help people

716

understand what that looks like.

717

Everything from the common language

that we talked about all the way

718

through to roles and change and

how do we just continue to support.

719

The ongoing portfolio of changes not only

the ones we're creating, but the ones that

720

are being thrust upon us as an enterprise.

721

I think that is really where HR

is going in the future, is to

722

help our organizations become

much more change capable, change

723

agile, and change resilient.

724

Thomas Kunjappu: It's almost if you're

taking another derivative of the

725

statement of that HR leader, which was,

Hey, there's one thing you can do right

726

now as an HR leader is ensure that.

727

organization is learning and, is learning

ai and, but really this the statement

728

behind that is that you're, if there's

one thing you can do is enable a

729

change, resilient, organization because

730

Laura McGann: Yeah.

731

Thomas Kunjappu: set up with that, that,

that core skillset to keep evolving.

732

as AI itself evolves, but also everything

upstream and downstream from a technology

733

process perspective also, evolves.

734

while I have you, I wanna also ask about

the, specifically CIO-CHRO partnership.

735

The, concept of that potentially

like merging as you're

736

Laura McGann: Oh, yes, that's right.

737

The other hot button.

738

Thomas Kunjappu: merging.

739

Yeah.

740

Laura McGann: Yeah.

741

So CIO, is my new best friend.

742

I think they were always on my

best friend list, but, lately,

743

spending a lot of time, with the

CIO, especially around AI adoption.

744

So yeah, the, there's a little bit

of clickbait out there right around

745

the CHRO and CIO roles converging.

746

I disagree, I guess with that

notion, and maybe I'll, eat my

747

words at some point in the future.

748

converging the roles I think really does.

749

Undermine the expertise, right?

750

That each role brings to the organization.

751

And so yes, we need to

partner so much more.

752

Technology is reshaping work.

753

HR is more involved in tech

decisions than ever, right?

754

AI is forcing this marriage even

more there is a deep interdependence.

755

I just don't think it's.

756

A convergence and honestly, like I

respect the, everything, the CIO in that

757

function brings to the organization and

would never pretend to know all that.

758

And I would think they would probably say

the same thing about the HR discipline.

759

I don't wanna have either

become the quasi each other.

760

Living in a world where we're

equal partners, we're bringing

761

the, deep expertise, we're coming

at it from different angles.

762

We're curious about the interconnections,

the adoption between tech and people.

763

I think there's a really

interesting kind of cultural shift.

764

So there's a lot of magic in the

partnership, but not the merger.

765

If.

766

Thomas Kunjappu: If you're looking

ahead into the future, just

767

like last kind of question as

we close out, what do you think?

768

and in the spirit of,

learning in public, right?

769

Laura McGann: Yeah.

770

Thomas Kunjappu: what are, the some,

of the things that you're hoping for

771

yourself and for your own, HR function

and more broadly the organization.

772

you're trying to get to, in

terms of AI adoption and,

773

Laura McGann: Yeah.

774

Thomas Kunjappu: the full ADKAR

journey, let's call it, up and

775

down for over the next few years.

776

Laura McGann: Yeah, so I'm a

big fan of the, what I just said

777

earlier, which is drinking our own

champagne or putting on your own

778

oxygen mask first, in that spirit.

779

so with my own HR team, we are

every day talking about, Hey,

780

how AI can help us accomplish.

781

Everything that is on our plate.

782

And so trying to do it ourselves

as we go out there to coach and

783

lead others in doing it themselves.

784

So everything from let's look

at the scope of your work.

785

Where can you again leverage ai?

786

What are you doing yourself?

787

Have you run this through ai?

788

So it's been a really interesting,

resetting of expectations.

789

On our own team, our team.

790

And then as we're looking at what

are the big strategic initiatives

791

or value creation activities that

our HR department is doing, with our

792

business partners, AI is part of every

single one of those conversations.

793

So we're deploying a new HRIS

and global payroll system, right?

794

It's all about.

795

What is the system gonna do for you?

796

Removing the burden from not

only our team, but also our team

797

leaders in terms of self service

and, team access to information.

798

So like AI is in absolutely every

single thing we're doing and just.

799

Getting clear on what are we learning

along the way and doing that learning

800

in public and sharing and being

really transparent so that we can

801

really bring people along and start

to reduce some of the barriers.

802

It's important to us, it's

important to Prosci, it's

803

important to a lot of our clients.

804

It's important to me.

805

I guess it's just an HR leader.

806

I can't even believe how much

this profession has changed.

807

And, trying to demystify and de

Do you overwhelm the, opportunity

808

that AI presents while also

being incredibly responsible with

809

all the data and information?

810

I just think we're at a really

interesting point, in just the future

811

of work and it's really cool to a front

row seat and also to, try and lead

812

in, in areas where we have expertise.

813

Thomas Kunjappu: Absolutely.

814

And speaking of interesting points in

time, I think that's a good place as any

815

to, to end our conversation here today.

816

Laura, thank you for, this

very interesting chat through,

817

management and how it's evolved.

818

ADKAR as a model and a framework,

which I think is very, pragmatic and

819

something that you can relate to an

organizational, functional, and of

820

course personal level and specifically.

821

we have gone through in depth it can apply

to helping you transform an organization,

822

to being, becoming, much more AI, adoptive

and the meta learning of just, trying to

823

be change resilient as an organization.

824

It's almost, a carrying call, or,

a carrying card of this, next,

825

generation of change management.

826

Because if we're seeing that including

AI change is just accelerating,

827

just the organizations that are

able to, be more resilient to it

828

and keep adopting to it, those are

the ones that will win the future.

829

And

830

Laura McGann: Absolutely.

831

Thomas Kunjappu: good a thing that as

anything that you could do as an HR

832

team to enable for your organization.

833

So some great takeaways.

834

So for everyone who is, following

along, good luck to you as you are

835

looking to future proof your own

organizations and your own HR functions.

836

I'm sure you had more than a couple

of takeaways as I did from this

837

great chat with Laura McGann.

838

Thanks again.

839

Bye now.

840

Thanks for joining us on this

episode of Future Proof HR.

841

If you like the discussion, make

sure you leave us a five star

842

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843

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844

See you next time as we keep our pulse on

how we can all thrive in the age of AI.