Artwork for podcast Podcast
Valuing Our Relationships
3rd March 2024 • Podcast • Parents At Work
00:00:00 00:55:17

Transcripts

Kiri Stejko:

Hello and welcome to our webinar on Valuing Our Relationships.

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I'm Kiri Stejko, the Client

Services Director of Parents At

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Work and I'll be hosting you today.

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So let's get started.

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I mean, look, the journey into

parenting, it's a time of great change

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and adjustment for all families.

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Children, parents and

couples can feel they're on a

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rollercoaster ride of emotions.

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It's often uncharted territory,

particularly for the first child.

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And every family navigates

this journey differently.

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And for some, it can be

particularly taxing or

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challenging for our relationships.

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Relationship means different

things to different people.

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We are acknowledging it's not

just about, you know, a, you

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know, a mother and a father.

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You know, it could be your, with

your partner, of course, but also

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your children or your friends or, or

even the milkman, as Jean put it to

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me last week, which made me chuckle.

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Today's session will be covering

principles for valuing relationships

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that apply to all relationships,

no matter who it is with.

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And to talk to us about this, I'm

joined by Jean Gamble, who has kindly

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agreed to share her expert knowledge.

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Jean is a psychotherapist and a

relationship family counsellor

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with a busy practice in Sydney.

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She's been married for 40 years

and has two adult daughters.

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Jean grew up in Africa.

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She's lived in five countries

and she's worked in human

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resources in large corporates.

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Um, Jean is frequently interviewed

on radio about her work as a

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relationship therapist and we're

thrilled to have her share her

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thoughts with, with us all today.

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Welcome, Jean.

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Jean Gamble: Thank you, Kiri, and

thank you to parents at work for

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giving me this opportunity to, to

talk to everybody on your webinar.

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Kiri Stejko: Wonderful.

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So let's get started.

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To kick us off, Jean, I'm going to ask

you a, just an introductory question.

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Um, you know, Obviously, you see

a lot of people, a lot of couples,

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a lot of families, individuals.

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I mean, is there, if you could pick

out one common theme that you've seen

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with your clients over the years?

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Um, this is a tough question, but is there

anything that you hear consistently in

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your work as a relationship therapist?

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Jean Gamble: There's two things, but

the thing that mainly jumps out at me in

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response to your question is how often

people, admit that they hold this sort of

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a bit secretly in the back of their heart,

and it's not something one trots out at

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cocktail parties, but it, it is that,

that secretly you could be living a life

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that's more satisfying, richer, deeper,

more meaningful with richer relationships.

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And when I ask people that question, Is

it possible that you could be living a

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more satisfying, more connected, more

meaningful, life and relationships,

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invariably the answer is yes.

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And that, that always leads us into

the kick off of, well, if we all feel

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that way, why are we not living that?

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What is it that stops us from living,

where people would say to you, could

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you be living a more fulfilling life?

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And you say, no, I'm at my max.

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Wouldn't that be wonderful?

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Kiri Stejko: Wouldn't that be wonderful?

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It's what we aim for, isn't it?

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And I suppose the people that have taken

the time to join this webinar today,

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I hope, I'm sure that they feel that,

that there's something they could be

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doing to lead a more fulfilling life,

and that's what they're working towards.

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And I understand that makes sense,

that that's a common theme for sure.

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So let's move into what you

wanted to cover today, Jean.

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If you'd like to introduce the overview

of the general topics that you intend

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on sharing, that would be great.

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I'll hand over to you.

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Jean Gamble: Thank you, Kiri.

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So it's an hour that we've got and

there's an awful lot to relationships.

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There's loads of books being written

and loads of courses being run and

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loads of therapists being trained.

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So I had to limit what we were

going to talk about so that it's

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covering a lot in a short time and

the overview that I want to give

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you is firstly to commit to change.

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So that whatever the relationship

is, even with the milkman, you

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want to make, you both agree that

you want a better relationship.

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And then the second thing would be to

focus on stopping the momentum of our

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lives, of the relationships we are in.

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Because sometimes we don't

even know we're in a momentum.

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We're just sort of on the mouse

wheel and trying to get through.

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Particularly, I would think, a lot

of the audience, Here today are

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working and they've got children

and relationships and life is busy.

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We all know that we live in a very busy

city and we're sometimes not even aware.

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So that's the other thing I wanted

to address was stopping the momentum

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and then connecting with our bodies

enough to know what we need, in our

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relationships, and not sort of second

guessing what we think we're supposed

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to need because of what's out there,

but actually deeply becoming aware of

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our own needs, and then learning to

express our feelings around those needs.

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When we can do this, uh, we can,

we're cooking with gas, and part

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of that learning to express it's

not about I want to talk to you,

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it's about I want to listen to you.

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So, it's a two way thing expression.

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It involves you saying how it is for

you, and then you being prepared to

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listen how it is for the other person.

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So, communication is essential.

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And then lastly, we'll

look at prioritizing time.

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You know, people say, Ah, I don't have

good relationships with my friends.

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And then you ask how many, how

much time they have for their

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friends, and there is no time.

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There's no, it's impossible to

have relationship if you don't

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make time for the relationship.

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It needs to be fed and watered and

fertilized and that takes time, you know.

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Kiri Stejko: Wonderful.

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So let's kick off with the topic of

committing to change and what that means.

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Jean Gamble: All right, so it's possible

I'm speaking to people who already

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have quite harmonious relationships

and they're saying, yeah, well I'm

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interested in how much further can we go.

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There could be people I'm talking

to who want a relationship, who are

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tired of being by themselves every

night or with the children on the

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weekends, and they were looking for

someone to share their life with.

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Or it could be people who are in

a relationship, but it's fraught.

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So I'm including all of

those, uh, those scenarios.

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When I say that, um, to begin

with, we need to make a commitment

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to changing what we've got.

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So, if we're in a decent relationship,

then we want to say that we can take

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this relationship to higher levels

of joy, intimacy, and playfulness.

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So that we are We're striving

for something bigger, deeper

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than that which we already have.

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And if we are looking for a

relationship, then we're committing

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to that kind of a relationship.

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We're not committing to finding

somebody who likes me and then I'll

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be whatever they want, which we call

codependent relationship, which is

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really not healthy and so, that's

the first thing I would address is

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that, get an agreement between you.

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Even if it's your colleagues at work,

to say, let's take our relationships to

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higher realms, who would like to do that?

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And there may be some that don't, and

then they're not, they're not pressured.

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It's only up for those that want to

go to, um, to more intimate levels

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or a deeper level of friendship

or support or appreciation.

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And then the second thing to

look at here is to be clear on

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the purpose of the relationship.

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So, some relationships are about

friendship, and some are about co working

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or joint projects, and some are about

romantic love and, and becoming a, you

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know, your one true love, a coupledom.

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And, um, inside of that relationship

that's not the purpose of the

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relationship, is the friendship.

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Really.

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You know, people say, oh,

we're in pursuit of happiness.

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This is a bit Dalai Lama.

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People say, oh yeah, I want to be happy.

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But actually, happy is pretty

much ordinary these days.

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And it's fleeting, you know.

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There's a big football match this

weekend with the semifinals and the

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people whose team win will be happy.

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But next week when their team loses,

you know, they won't be so happy.

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So, we're not really that

crash hot on happiness here.

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We're looking more for joy.

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for a deep self sense in the

body of joy, of joyfulness.

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And that's, that is, you know, we say that

happiness is fleeting and joy is eternal.

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And so what we want in our relationships

is to build the level of joy that

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we have in ourselves and in the way

we relate to the people around us.

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So if we say the purpose is

to bring more joy into the

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relationships, how do we achieve that?

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Then that's quite a good, um, a good,

uh, marker of, of, of where we go.

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So,

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Kiri Stejko: Jean, sorry to interrupt

you, but we have a question from a

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single parent who, um, in terms of being

clear on the purpose of relationships,

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you know, has made the comment that

sometimes there's mixed purposes.

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So, you know, when you are a single

parent of children, you're both

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the rule maker and the enforcer.

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And so, you know, to have an underpinning,

a goal, I suppose, or purpose of bringing

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in more joy and yet having to also be

the guide and the person who, you know,

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teaches and disciplines, you know, where

do you bring joy into the context of

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discipline in that, in that scenario?

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Jean Gamble: Without trying to sound pie

in the sky, I would hazard to guess that

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where there is joy in the relationship,

enforcing the rules is a lot easier.

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So if the person, if my listener there

is saying that I'm, I'm so busy enforcing

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the rules and being the, the, the model.

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that I don't have time for joy, then I

would suggest we need a reprioritizing

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of what the relationship is about.

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And I've raised teenagers, so I do know

that it's not a cakewalk, but um, it's

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certainly if you're focused and agreed

on, on going to a place of more joy, of,

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of deeper levels of appreciation, and

you both agree to that, then enforcing

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the rules gets easier because it's

part of the agreement that we've made.

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It's not like I'm always on your

case telling you what to do.

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It's that this is it.

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Kiri Stejko: Yeah, this parent is

talking about young children under

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the age of five where an agreement

can be more difficult to achieve.

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Um, you know, then as

the kids get a bit older.

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But I hear what you're saying

is, you know, come from a place

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of joy and have joy as the goal.

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Jean Gamble: The children will be more

on board when it's joyful than when it's,

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when it's grumpy and ruling enforced.

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Kiri Stejko: Absolutely.

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Jean Gamble: And then the last thing

about this concept that I'm introducing

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is that in order to do all this, we have

to be connected to ourselves and people

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might ask, well, what does that mean?

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Being connected to yourself means that you

are tracking the sensations in your body.

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You have a level of awareness.

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That tells you what you are feeling,

and whether you're in reaction,

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or whether you're responding

to the situation around you.

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And when you're busy and you've got small

children and they don't listen to you, or

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even teenage children who are particularly

not good at listening to you, it's quite

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difficult to stay connected to yourself

and level and observe in your reactions

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and not giving in to them and acting

out of them, turning into a screaming

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banshee or a critical mother or father.

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So, it's that level of awareness

that we are striving for that

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can actually, um, can take us to

this new level of relationship.

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So the work is involved

in connecting to yourself.

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Before you are connected to

yourself, the level that you connect

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to others is always superficial.

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If you do not have a ongoing, working

on level of connecting to yourself,

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and when we get to that place, we'll

um, we'll talk more about that.

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One of the, I've been in this business

for a long time, in the field of

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personal development and self awareness.

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And I've done a lot of things,

including walking on hot

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coals in a moment of madness.

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Uh, but at the time now, in my

dotage, in my Sixtieth decade.

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Um, the most satisfying and effective

way that I've found of connecting

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to myself and for my clients and

customers to connect is through

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a process called esoteric yoga.

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And you can find this on the web, there

are quite a lot of people offering

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it now, there's trainings in it.

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And it's different from other yogas,

because it's the yoga of connection.

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You don't move very much, you lie still

on the floor, and you think about your

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left leg, and you hang out with your

left leg, and after a while you compare

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your left leg with your right leg, and

you're gobsmacked at the difference.

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Because the cells in your left leg

have felt your level of connection.

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They felt you being with

them and responding to them.

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And it changes the relationship,

it changes the chemistry

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in the body when we attend.

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Because every cell has a

small brain called a nucleus.

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And these nuclei can register

when they are being attended to.

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And when they're being ignored.

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And just like all human

tissue, if you think of babies,

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they love to have attention.

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They're geared to get our attention

with their big eyes and their cuteness.

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And so when we attend to ourselves

at a deeper level, we engender

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a sense of joy and satisfaction.

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In every cell in our body.

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And that thing spreads

throughout the body.

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And when we abandon ourselves to

the busyness of life, to the mouse

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wheel, to getting things done, to

ticking the boxes, the cells recognize

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that they're not being attended to.

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And they're miserable.

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And therefore, so are we.

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Kiri Stejko: And so in that, in

that context, we've had a question

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saying, how do you initiate the

conversation with your partner if all

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you ever talk about are your kids?

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On this topic of connecting to yourself,

do you, I mean, would you say, take,

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you know, if the conversation with your

partner is all about the kids, then

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it's potentially the case that you are

also all about the kids and then you

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would recommend taking some time and

focusing and prioritising, connecting

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with yourself and from there you'll

go to connecting with your partner.

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Is that, is that probably

something that might make sense?

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Jean Gamble: Yes, and you can, you

can do this together if you're willing

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partners, you can say, let's, let's

launch into a program of connecting

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with ourselves and each other and not

always making it about the children.

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So if your partner only wants

to talk about the children,

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then it's communication.

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Whenever I want to get closer to

you, you talk about the children.

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What's actually going on here

is you're using the children

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possibly to push me away.

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And what is the fear of going into a

more intimate, a deeper connection?

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Because we will pull in whatever we can

to avoid that deeper intimacy, because

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it's unknown territory, it's uncharted.

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So quite often the unconscious plays

out and we hold a person at bay with a

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particular topic, like the children, in

order to avoid going deeper together.

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So, how you do that is

you pick your moment.

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You don't find the moment when your

partner's just walked in from work after

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a busy day and has to get changed in order

to make the gym on time, or the cat's

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just thrown up, or the baby's screaming.

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That's not a good time to

discuss how we can work at a more

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deeper intimate relationship.

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A better time is when the kids

are in bed, when you've got some

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time together, and you say, let's

prioritize a time to talk about this.

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I heard about this on a webinar

today, and I want to practice it.

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I want to play with it.

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Come, and I want to tell you what

I, what my, what my plans are.

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And you make a time.

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You say, It's not now.

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You bring your diary, and we're going to

make a time to actually talk about this.

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And you treat that as if it were, a

business meeting that you've put in

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your diary, or a doctor's appointment.

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It's not just, yeah, we've said we'd talk,

but there's no time now, so we fob it off.

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You have to commit.

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The word at the top of the

slide is committing, and there

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is a level of commitment that's

required to make this work.

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There's no magic wand.

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Kiri Stejko: Beautiful.

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Um, another question on the topic

of connecting to self is just, uh,

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someone said, I'm very hard on myself.

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Do you have a number one tip

on how to be kinder to myself?

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Jean Gamble: Yeah, I used to be very hard

on myself as well, and I still can, when

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I'm stressed, fall into that, that habit.

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And it's a matter, again, of the

awareness that I talked about, and

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clocking when that voice comes in.

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Oh, you're so stupid.

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Why did you do that?

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Oh, oh my God, I forgot that.

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I always forget those appointments.

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And you catch the self talk.

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You become aware enough to catch the

self talk, and then you say, I refuse

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to allow you to talk to me like that.

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It's a beginning, a process of self

appreciation, where you start to

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ditch those hard, harsh voices.

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Think of the cells.

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Every time you recriminate or you're

down on yourself, all the little cells

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faces turn into downward turned mouths.

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And when you're appreciative and

loving of yourself, all the little

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cells faces are smiling, and they're

jumping up and down and happy.

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So it's to take responsibility

for stopping that momentum

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of critical self talk.

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Kiri Stejko: I love that.

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I like the, you know, the, I mean, it all

starts with self awareness, doesn't it

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and then moves into, as you said, self

appreciation as opposed to, um, you know,

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being hard on yourself, but it comes

back to being connected to yourself.

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So the person that asked that question

actually already begins with self

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awareness because they are aware

that they're hard on themselves.

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So now it's about Catching

that self talk, as you said.

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Yep.

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Thank you.

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Okay, next, next topic,

stopping the momentum.

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Jean Gamble: The thing I wanted to say

here was about stopping the momentum.

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So lives are busy, and sometimes we're

not even aware of the fact that we're

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on this mouse wheel just trundling

along, next, next, next, next, next.

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So we have to stop and take

stock of what we're doing.

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And that again requires a discipline.

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It could be through that process of

esoteric yoga where you have to take

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an hour out of your life and lie on

the floor and feel how you are today.

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Or it could be a short meditation.

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And there's lots and lots of

meditations on the website.

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In particular, there's a website called

Unimed Living, which offers a variety of

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free meditations where it's just a stop.

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You don't have to sit cross legged

with your fingers in a special

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mudra and hum on top of a mountain.

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This is designed for people who

are in life and who are busy.

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And it's just a matter of checking

in with yourself, where am I at

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and what is the quality of my life?

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What am I living in the moment?

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And so that's the momentum, is to stop.

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And then you can, from there, you'll

speed up again, and we all do, and

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then you go, Ah, I've speeded up.

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Once we know the difference between a

speeded up momentum and a momentum that's

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more still, we can start to choose.

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But when we have no awareness, we don't

even know we're on the mouse wheel.

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So it's a matter of building

the awareness again.

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And we can, we can move

on to the next one.

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Kiri Stejko: I do have a question though

before we do, some, somebody has asked

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um, you know, carrying on from the last

slide but also in this one, if, if both

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people in a relationship do commit to

change, you know, is, is a, and you

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know, they've stopped and they've taken

stock of where they're at and it doesn't

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feel like it's a good place, is the

relationship in your experience and

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from what you've seen ever too far gone

to enjoy, to, to find that joy again?

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Jean Gamble: Look, I can't say the

answer to that because I have worked

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with couples who have got separated and

I've worked with couples who've come

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from a place of deep sort of loathing and

they're very respectful and loving now.

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So it depends on the couple.

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It can't, no one can make a call for

any other persons, but if both of

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you are prepared to commit to change,

then you're ahead of the eight ball.

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And we'll come a little further down

the track when we talk at the next

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slide about how we can arrange to stop

shooting each other in the foot and

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how we can arrange to keep moving to:

does this serve our purpose, no, okay,

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then we're not going to do it anymore.

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So, you start to cut the energy of the

criticism and the blaming and the who

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shot Jonny and rather focus on where

do we want to go in our relationship.

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In my own relationship, my husband

and I, we did two and a half years

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of couples therapy, oh, I think

about ten years ago, maybe more,

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and it transformed our relationship.

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We're now more loving, more tender,

more appreciative and kinder to each

361

:

other and ourselves than we were before.

362

:

And, uh, and we were quite

far gone to think, well, do

363

:

we really want to pursue this?

364

:

Is it worth it?

365

:

We're not having a lot of fun.

366

:

So I'm quite a positive, uh,

proponent of yes, change is possible.

367

:

Kiri Stejko: And it's about keeping

an open mind on the possibilities,

368

:

particularly, as you said, when

both are committed to that change.

369

:

Jean Gamble: Yeah, that's right.

370

:

And, you know, there's sort of, this,

this, um, knowing what we need is an

371

:

important concept, because a lot of us

are second guessing what we think the

372

:

other one wants and trying to be that.

373

:

And this, This is a recipe for disaster.

374

:

Because resentment builds in.

375

:

Because I'm pretzeling myself

to become what I think you want.

376

:

And you aren't even noticing.

377

:

So then I get very resentful because

you don't even notice all these

378

:

lovely things I'm doing for you.

379

:

But actually you don't

even really need them.

380

:

I think you need them because I need them.

381

:

So we project what we want onto our

friends, and then we give them that,

382

:

and then when they don't notice,

we get a bit fed up and resentful,

383

:

and I can tell you, love cannot

grow in a garden where the weeds of

384

:

resentment are stifling the plant.

385

:

So it's really important that we can

feel what's needed for us, and then we

386

:

start to give ourselves what we need.

387

:

When we do that, we give our partner

or our friends permission for them

388

:

also to give them what they need.

389

:

The number of people I see in my practice

who say, Oh, I've committed to going out

390

:

tonight, and I'm so tired, I really don't

want to go, but I can't let them down.

391

:

Well, if they rang you up and said,

Look, I know we made an arrangement,

392

:

but I'm exhausted, so I'm not

going to, I'm going to break my

393

:

word and I can't make it tonight.

394

:

Then next time they're feeling like

that, they ring you up and say,

395

:

Look, I can't make it, I'm exhausted,

I don't want to come anymore.

396

:

So it was a good idea at the time,

but now I don't want to play.

397

:

We start, when we start to be real,

we give everybody else permission to

398

:

be real, and we break this facade of

pretending that we have to keep our word.

399

:

Or we, We have to be

as they want us to be.

400

:

And it's the same in an

intimate relationship.

401

:

When one of you starts saying,

Oh, no, I don't like that, then

402

:

the other one feels, Oh, well, if

you can say that, then so can I.

403

:

And it may get a bit rocky to

begin with, but it gets real.

404

:

Rocky and real is much better

than superficial and fake.

405

:

So when we connect and we know what

we want, and then we can ask for this,

406

:

and we're prepared to allow the other

person to know what they want and to

407

:

ask for it, we're cooking, we're on the

road to building a better relationship.

408

:

So we begin to ditch the martyrdom

and the sacrificial parenting.

409

:

And we say, I can't pick you up, I

can't drive you to sport, I'm too

410

:

tired, I'm busy, you'll have to

catch a bus, or you'll have to go

411

:

with a friend, there's no transport.

412

:

So we start to do things

where we're not the martyr.

413

:

We matter.

414

:

We count.

415

:

And when we model to our families and

our friends that we matter, we give

416

:

them the modeling that they also matter.

417

:

And they learn to say no.

418

:

But if all they've ever heard is yes,

okay, alright, I can cancel my appointment

419

:

to have my hair done and I will drive you.

420

:

Or I will stay up until 2 in

the morning to pick you up.

421

:

No, you can come home at midnight

because 2 is too late for me.

422

:

So, it's, it's that kind of um, ditching

the martyrdom and having what you want and

423

:

giving others the permission to have it.

424

:

And, I must add, you won't

always get what you want.

425

:

At least knowing what it is and asking

for it is a hell of a lot more real

426

:

than pretending you have no needs.

427

:

And getting resentful because the other

person doesn't deliver what you're hoping

428

:

they can telepathically know you want.

429

:

Kiri Stejko: That telepathy

is a common thing.

430

:

You know, a lot of the, um, a lot of the

people that we speak to in our coaching

431

:

work through Parents At Work are, you

know, just transitioning back to work

432

:

after having had babies and fall into

a pattern of kind of doing it all,

433

:

I suppose they do everything at home

and they do everything at work and try

434

:

and meet the Everyone and sort of go,

well, you know, I guess I'll just have

435

:

to do it because that's the pattern.

436

:

Um, and they're in that very early baby

stage and it, and it's, you know, it's

437

:

about, like you said previously, taking

stock of where you're at and actually

438

:

reevaluating, you know, ditching that

martyrdom and thinking, well, actually,

439

:

no, I do need to ask for help and

reevaluating where things are at in the

440

:

partnership, um, in terms of parenting.

441

:

Jean Gamble: Yeah.

442

:

And I think we raised Kiri in a climate

where um, asking for help is like weakness

443

:

or, um, you've got to cope, you know?

444

:

And it's so, it's so non community

because when you do ask for help you

445

:

get so many people willing to help you

and you can then feel you can help them

446

:

in response and it builds community.

447

:

Whereas doing it all by myself is

very three year old, as we know.

448

:

I want to tie my shoelaces all

by myself even though I can't.

449

:

But we could hopefully learn that

we don't have to do it all by

450

:

myself by the time we're adult.

451

:

Mmm.

452

:

Kiri Stejko: And like you said at the

start, I think it can, you know, it

453

:

can start out where you're just in,

in the habit of it but slowly those

454

:

seeds of resentment start to build

and over time they grow into weeds and

455

:

then they grow into plants and you can

find yourself in a, you know, quite a

456

:

resentful place if it's not addressed,

you know, early on, I suppose, when you

457

:

recognise that, that kind of martyrdom

has taken over and you just do it all.

458

:

And feel resentment about that.

459

:

Jean Gamble: And you know, there's

a common saying that women have

460

:

an issue with self loathing.

461

:

Nearly every woman I know admits secretly

to self loathing, except for the ones that

462

:

are hiding their self loathing under a

fake front of no, I'm absolutely awesome.

463

:

Um, and men, men fear rejection.

464

:

So when this plays out in a

couple, is that I will do anything

465

:

to avoid my self loathing.

466

:

So I'll make you love me,

and then I feel better.

467

:

And then, that's kind of not so productive

because when you forget to love me

468

:

or you're busy or you're preoccupied,

I feel terrible because you're not

469

:

feeding me that, that, that, that I need

in order to combat my self loathing.

470

:

And then you keep feeding

me that if you're the male

471

:

because you fear rejection.

472

:

And so if you don't keep feeding

me, I'll get upset and not like

473

:

you, and then I might reject you.

474

:

And so we have this relationship based

on my need for you to love me so I don't

475

:

feel myself loathing, and your need to

fulfill that so that I don't reject you.

476

:

And it's so fake, and it's so

exhausting, that it isn't what we

477

:

call the grounds of real relationship.

478

:

And I often work with couples to

put that out on the table, that

479

:

the woman needs to learn to love

herself and appreciate herself.

480

:

and not look for that from outside.

481

:

And the man needs to accept that

if he doesn't do as she wants, and

482

:

he gets rejected, he will survive.

483

:

He will not die.

484

:

And when you make your agreement up front,

you agree not to storm off in a huff.

485

:

You agree to process things at a time

that's, even if you have to re diarise,

486

:

because we haven't resolved this, we'll

keep talking next Saturday afternoon,

487

:

and we'll make time for it then.

488

:

And then you go back to it.

489

:

You agree not to storm off in a

huff, because that is not productive.

490

:

You also agree not to yell at each

other, because that's counterproductive.

491

:

So there's certain rules of

engagement that you make.

492

:

Stonewalling is not good, and neither

is removing yourself, unless you're

493

:

getting so angry that you're going

to hurt yourself or somebody else.

494

:

Then you say, I have to stop

this, I'm getting out of control.

495

:

But you don't use it as a weapon to leave.

496

:

Kiri Stejko: I just have a question that

asks about, you know, what happens if

497

:

neither of you are willing to compromise?

498

:

Jean Gamble: I would query why.

499

:

What is underneath that?

500

:

Who's frightened of going deeper?

501

:

Who's frightened of what it might mean

to be a couple that really loves and

502

:

appreciates each other and be envied

by all the other couples in the school?

503

:

Because if neither of you is prepared,

I mean, it could be on a particular

504

:

issue like, um, whether the kids

need to do their homework or not.

505

:

So I think homework's a crock,

and I've, I didn't, I grew

506

:

up doing none, and I'm fine.

507

:

And you think homework's absolutely

important, and if they don't do their

508

:

homework, it's a, it's a fatal thing.

509

:

So we have to, we can agree to disagree.

510

:

So, a lot of what happens in coupledom,

and even in friendships, is that, I can't

511

:

rest until you agree with my viewpoint.

512

:

And so I think it's blue, or

I think homework's important.

513

:

And, uh, you, until you say, Yes, Jean,

homework's important, we can't rest.

514

:

So I always bring in here this

concept that there are two realities.

515

:

There's my reality and

there's your reality.

516

:

And if we have children, there's their

realities, and even the reality of

517

:

the cat and the dog and the hamster.

518

:

So, it's important that I can

say, Okay, your reality is that

519

:

homework's not important, but

mine is that it is important.

520

:

So when the kids are with

me, they do their homework.

521

:

When they're with you,

that's their business.

522

:

So we have to really respect the viewpoint

and the territory of the other person.

523

:

And not say, when you're more like

me, then we can be harmonious.

524

:

Because both of you are saying, when

you're more like me, then you've

525

:

got already a separation in there.

526

:

When we come into a friendship or

a relationship, we bring all the

527

:

patterns of our family of origin.

528

:

So we are not going to be like each other.

529

:

So we do get always these dilemmas

in the relationships because we come

530

:

from poles apart of family values.

531

:

And that's to give the offspring

the best chance of a middle road.

532

:

So we have to allow the input of the

other to be there in the relationship.

533

:

It's constellated that way for the benefit

of the progeny, of the, of the children.

534

:

Kiri Stejko: Beautiful.

535

:

Thank you.

536

:

Next topic.

537

:

Express yourself.

538

:

Jean Gamble: Yeah.

539

:

So this also means listen to the

other person expressing themselves,

540

:

because I have encouraged one party

to express and they then monopolize

541

:

the next two hours for what they want.

542

:

So it's not, it's a dialogue.

543

:

Uh, if I tell you that I want

this, how does that feel for you?

544

:

So it's opening the dialogue in

a way that you are expressing,

545

:

but opening a dialogue.

546

:

And the first of that is to

assess what's really important.

547

:

So for children, you know, it's important

that they don't run on the road when

548

:

there's a rig coming towards us.

549

:

Uh, it's important that

they, um, are happy.

550

:

It's important that they, um, function.

551

:

And some things aren't so important,

and yet we can get bogged down

552

:

in perfectionism as parents.

553

:

What will other parents think if our

child goes to school in their pyjamas?

554

:

They'll probably think, wow, I wish I had

the guts to send my kid in her pyjamas.

555

:

So if they won't get ready for

school, or kindy, or whatever it is,

556

:

you just say to them, that's fine

sweetie, you can go in your pyjamas.

557

:

And the only person who

really cares is you.

558

:

So if there's a thing like

power struggle going on around

559

:

that, get to what's important.

560

:

Running in the road in front of

the traffic, not a good idea.

561

:

Playing with a neighbor's Doberman,

Rottweiler, also maybe not so wise.

562

:

But you know, there are other things

that don't really matter, except that

563

:

I'm a bit uptight, haven't connected

deeply with myself, and are on this

564

:

mouse wheel of thinking it matters.

565

:

So I'm sorry if I sound a bit judgmental

here, but I do see this a lot, and having

566

:

been through the stage of having young

children, and thinking that things really

567

:

matter, and now having a 31 year old and

a 28 year old and realizing that none of

568

:

that really did matter, I can give you

that wisdom of an old lady that a lot

569

:

of what we worry about doesn't matter.

570

:

And the other thing is

attending versus doing.

571

:

Um, you know, people in

relationship need to be attended to.

572

:

So it's not so much about what I need

you to do, it's me being there with you.

573

:

Being present to you, attending to

you, what you're saying, hearing you.

574

:

So often when we're busy, we will listen

to the other party while we're doing our

575

:

emails, or we're chopping up the food.

576

:

So I'm not saying you do everything,

but it's not really easy to answer

577

:

your emails and listen to your partner.

578

:

So it's the quality, again, the quality

that we bring to the relationship, where

579

:

we are attending and we are listening,

and if we have a partner who needs to

580

:

talk at length about his work, or her

work, and it's boring as anything, then

581

:

we have to say, we have to have, what

are my needs, I've heard enough now,

582

:

I need to go and run the bath, or get

the children ready, so you say, It's

583

:

interesting what you're telling me, but

I can't listen anymore because I now

584

:

have conflicting goals, so I'm going

to not attend you anymore, rather than

585

:

pretend to be listening when you're not,

which leads to the resentment again.

586

:

So we're building on

truth, being truthful.

587

:

With what I can and can't manage.

588

:

And not pretending I can manage

everything and then giving it a

589

:

half a lick when it needs a whole.

590

:

Kiri Stejko: Do you think these principles

can apply equally in the workplace?

591

:

So in the relationship of a

manager and a person, a subordinate

592

:

reporting into a manager.

593

:

Um, you know, if, if you do not trust

your manager, how do you, you know,

594

:

approach this commitment to change and

express yourself and, and assess, you

595

:

know, what's important to yourself, but

also get that message across to a manager

596

:

that, that the trust has been lost with?

597

:

Jean Gamble: Yep.

598

:

So that's the communication again.

599

:

It's having the connection with yourself

and the awareness to know what's going on.

600

:

And then having the courage

to bring it into relationship.

601

:

So you ask the boss for a deep

and meaningful, you book a time.

602

:

You don't catch them on their

way past the photocopier.

603

:

And you say, I'd really

love to talk to you.

604

:

And then you say, you know, it's

occurred to me that I've lost trust

605

:

and I would love to rebuild it.

606

:

But in order to have that, we

need to come to an agreement

607

:

that that's what's going on.

608

:

And what are my chances

of getting this happening?

609

:

So you, you front up

as all of who you are.

610

:

Life's about evolving, becoming more,

not capping ourselves and limiting

611

:

ourselves, and I know you need the money

for the job, but you'd be surprised when

612

:

you approach it in absolute sincerity

and truth you often get heard in a

613

:

way that you don't if you do it in

a sort of petulant or negative way.

614

:

It's in truthful sincerity where you can

say, this is what I think's going on.

615

:

You know, I work with clients

one on one, and quite often my

616

:

clients give me information that

I am not doing a very good job,

617

:

or they like it done differently.

618

:

And I feel the reaction in me, and

then I open my heart, and I say to

619

:

them, okay, tell me more about this.

620

:

What was it exactly that I did, and

what did you feel when I did it?

621

:

And I learn so much when I can open to

that, rather than say, oh yes, well I'm

622

:

the expert, I'm the psychotherapist,

you're paying, and I know best.

623

:

And I don't think a lot of bosses

have that attitude either, unless

624

:

you're unlucky enough to be

working with someone like that.

625

:

And then maybe have a good look on Seek.

626

:

Kiri Stejko: But give it a good try first,

627

:

Jean Gamble: You know, and maybe

if you've tried and failed, then

628

:

you're too sexy for that game.

629

:

And then be prepared to listen

to the other's viewpoints.

630

:

So even with the boss, they may say,

Yes, well you're saying that I'm on your

631

:

case the whole time, but you've been in

late to work now nine days out of ten.

632

:

And, you know, it's not a good, if I don't

call you up, then what about the others?

633

:

And, you know, you've got to see it

from the other person's perspective

634

:

as well as expressing your needs.

635

:

Be prepared to hear theirs.

636

:

Because often we don't see our part

in it And I can put my hand up for

637

:

that when I was in couples therapy.

638

:

And, and my husband would say what

it was that he'd seen me doing.

639

:

And I had absolutely no idea

that I was behaving like that.

640

:

All I could see was how he was being

such a, um, a negative, um, force.

641

:

Or picky or critical.

642

:

And I, and when I heard him

saying what was going on for

643

:

him, I, I, I couldn't believe it.

644

:

If you're really stuck, then going to a

couple's therapist is a very good idea,

645

:

because that third party, that witness in

the room, forces you to hear each other

646

:

in a way that you can't hear each other

when you're at home together, or when

647

:

you're having a mediator in the workplace.

648

:

If you can't, if there's a relationship

there that's really stuck, get mediation.

649

:

Because the third brings in a whole

different energetic quality to the

650

:

discussion, to the communication.

651

:

Kiri Stejko: Absolutely.

652

:

And it helps to, uh, to, to encourage

that deeper connection and the deeper

653

:

intimacy that you were talking about.

654

:

You know, it could take getting off

the, the, the daily sort of functions

655

:

that we all go through, but talk

about what's really going on, you

656

:

know, behind the scenes, as you say.

657

:

Jean Gamble: And in, I've just had a

thought in response to the person who

658

:

asked the question, what if neither

of you is prepared to compromise?

659

:

When you both know where the goal is,

what do I really want out of, I want a

660

:

harmonious, joyful, intimate relationship,

then does holding to my guns here and not

661

:

compromising, is that more important, or

is the where we're headed more important?

662

:

And you do a stock take, you assess

it, and you say, actually, I could

663

:

surrender, here in order to get on

that road more with more clarity.

664

:

And so it's not that you're giving your

power away it's that you are choosing

665

:

consciously to surrender to what's more

important to them because you can see how

666

:

that would take you more towards that goal

of joy and intimacy and a deeper, more

667

:

satisfying relationship than sticking to

your guns on the issue of who takes out

668

:

the bins or how much money you spend.

669

:

So, you know, it's kind of, um,

look, look, when you, when neither

670

:

of you is prepared to compromise,

look into the higher goal and ask

671

:

yourself, could I surrender here?

672

:

In other words, you lose the

battle, but you win the war.

673

:

Kiri Stejko: Beautiful.

674

:

Jean Gamble: And here we come a little

bit now to this next slide of priorities.

675

:

How are we going for time?

676

:

Kiri, are we on?

677

:

Kiri Stejko: We're doing well, actually.

678

:

We have just over 15 minutes left and, um,

and the questions are coming in nicely,

679

:

so we'll just keep going as we are.

680

:

Thanks, Jean.

681

:

Jean Gamble: Alright, so, in terms of

your priorities here, of course the

682

:

first priority is to make the agreement.

683

:

Is to say, I think it

could be better, love.

684

:

What do you think?

685

:

And he says, hell yeah.

686

:

And then we say, okay, if that's what we

both want, then we're going to make that

687

:

the umbrella under which we are living

and so every time there's stuff going

688

:

on you both look up to the umbrella or

one of you points to the umbrella and

689

:

you go, is this serving our new brawley?

690

:

And the answer is no.

691

:

Cut the energy.

692

:

Ditch the argument.

693

:

It's not about who's winning.

694

:

It's not about who's right or who's wrong.

695

:

It's about are we going towards what

we both want or is this in the way?

696

:

And if it's in the way, you just open

the trap door and drop it through.

697

:

It's a huge relief to do that.

698

:

So that's the first priority.

699

:

If the first priority is to make

that arrangement, that you're

700

:

going to a higher level, then you

prioritize time with each other.

701

:

That was that thing where we say,

not doing, but being with each other.

702

:

So that your time becomes space.

703

:

And you make space for being together.

704

:

And if other things don't get attended

to, again, look at your priorities.

705

:

What's important here?

706

:

The other thing we have to learn to

do is appreciating self and other.

707

:

So, it's impossible to love someone

else unless you love yourself.

708

:

And it's impossible to appreciate

someone else unless you are

709

:

capable of appreciating yourself.

710

:

It begins at home with you.

711

:

So you build in self

talk around other people.

712

:

Wow, I'm smart.

713

:

I did that.

714

:

Well, how good am I?

715

:

I got up early this morning, did

all the washing, and now I can

716

:

go to work, and it's all done.

717

:

I didn't sleep in.

718

:

I appreciate the fact that I got out

of bed and did what was necessary.

719

:

And I appreciate that I went to bed

early last night so that I could

720

:

get up and feel good about myself

this morning and get a few things

721

:

done before the working day set in.

722

:

So personally, I go to bed around about

9 o'clock every night and I get up at 4.

723

:

And I don't see a lot of

people between 4 and 6 always.

724

:

I do sometimes because I have

overseas clients on Skype.

725

:

But in that time in the morning, I can do

bone broth, I can do a lot of housework,

726

:

I can do a lot of note taking and filing.

727

:

And then I'm set up for the day,

because I have, I have valued myself

728

:

enough to make myself to make it more

important that I set it up how I want it,

729

:

rather than I get an extra hour's kip.

730

:

And because I'm living lovingly,

I don't need that extra hour.

731

:

I'm refreshed when I wake

because I went to bed early.

732

:

So you begin to appreciate

yourself and to live in a way

733

:

that fosters appreciation of you.

734

:

And then that automatically, when

your cup is full, I promise you

735

:

it flows out over onto the others.

736

:

And when your cup is half empty

or empty, you cannot pour from it.

737

:

And that's really.

738

:

That's pretty much all I've got to say.

739

:

Kiri Stejko: That's wonderful.

740

:

I guess this is an opportunity if

anyone had any last questions, we do

741

:

have, you know, about ten minutes if

you'd like to ask any questions of

742

:

Jean while we have her on the line.

743

:

Um, I'll just give it a couple of minutes.

744

:

Somebody mentioned earlier that they

actually did that pyjama thing with

745

:

their son today, and guess what?

746

:

He changed, which I love.

747

:

Um, you know, the threat is sometimes, you

know, enough reality for the message to

748

:

get through, but it doesn't sound like he

actually got to his school in his pajamas,

749

:

but well done to you for doing that.

750

:

Jean Gamble: It's wonderful that you said

it's fine to go in your pajamas, you know,

751

:

because we worry so much about what people

think, and everyone's in the same boat.

752

:

Everyone knows what it's like raising

a family and what it's like to have

753

:

kids, so if they were in front in their

pyjamas, then people will know, ah well,

754

:

you didn't want to get dressed this

morning and your mum didn't fuss about it.

755

:

How cool is that?

756

:

Kiri Stejko: Yeah, and I, I agree

with you in that the only judgement

757

:

that's happening in that situation

is probably us and ourselves.

758

:

I know that if I saw another kid

in PJs at daycare, I would be

759

:

applauding that parent for sure.

760

:

I would have known there would

have been a battle and that

761

:

that kid is learning a lesson.

762

:

And the judgement wouldn't come from

those around but from ourselves and that

763

:

comes back to the message of, of self,

you know, self kindness, self appreciation

764

:

and actually catching that self talk and,

you know, removing judgement of ourselves.

765

:

Jean Gamble: And what's important,

winning the battle of whether you get

766

:

dressed or letting you go in your PJs.

767

:

He's probably not going to

walk down the aisle in his PJs.

768

:

We may make a few days at work, he might

go to work a few days in a row on the

769

:

bus in his pajamas, but he probably

won't do that for too long either.

770

:

Kiri Stejko: And somebody's asked

a question that they're in some

771

:

habits, you know, how do you get to

the point where you break habits?

772

:

So for example, um, you know, late at

night, um, both exhausted, long day,

773

:

managing, you know, young children,

both working, um, and actually enjoy

774

:

some silence, you know, once the

kids are in bed, and jump onto the

775

:

phone, jump onto social media, play

some games online, both in silence

776

:

but near each other, but not talking.

777

:

But you get into these habits and

um, and you know, obviously these

778

:

things are addictive as well.

779

:

So some advice on how you break a

cycle, I mean, I guess it comes back

780

:

to making commitment to that and then

having a joint commitment, but what

781

:

are your thoughts, Jean, on that?

782

:

Jean Gamble: I, I know this one really

well, and when I was doing difficult times

783

:

in my, in my marriage, we had an office

each in the house, and boy, did we spend

784

:

a lot of time in our offices separately.

785

:

So, you have to, again, come together,

and it's about the being, not the doing.

786

:

Which was one of the slides.

787

:

So, you have to say, Look, I've noticed

that, you know, it's the end of the

788

:

day, we're both tired, and we're just

chilling, and you're playing Tetris,

789

:

and I'm reading something on the

internet, and is this what we want?

790

:

And then you prioritize time.

791

:

Now, everything in life pulses.

792

:

And as I'm saying this to you, I'm holding

my fingertips up together and pushing

793

:

my hands in and out, like a kind of

um, spider doing press ups on a mirror.

794

:

And so everything pulses.

795

:

So you can't say, Okay, we're going to

be with each other, and then you're like

796

:

two of those fish with big lips, and

your lips are glued together and you're

797

:

stuck together for the next 24 hours.

798

:

You have to come together, have a quality

of connection, and then pulse away, and

799

:

then come together again with a quality

of connection, and then pulse away.

800

:

You can't withstand, oh, I have to be

connected now, and we're connecting,

801

:

and we're connecting, and the strain

is killing me, and all I want to

802

:

do is reach for the telly or the,

or the device on which I can game.

803

:

But you don't allow it to rule that

we're gaming all the time or we're

804

:

ignoring, like we're snuggled up on

the couch and I'm doing my emails and

805

:

you're, you're playing World of Warcraft.

806

:

That's not the way and let's hang out

and see what arises in that space.

807

:

And it's quite freaky.

808

:

You feel a little bit

fruity when you do it.

809

:

It's like, well, there's nothing arising.

810

:

Here we are hanging, and frankly,

I'd rather be playing Tetris.

811

:

But you still stay there,

and you feel what it's like.

812

:

And you gradually build a deeper

and deeper tolerance for being

813

:

together with no distraction.

814

:

It's a whole relearning.

815

:

It's the same when we

connect with ourselves.

816

:

It's like, I don't want to lie

down for half an hour and feel my

817

:

feet on the floor and lift my legs

up and roll my back and stretch.

818

:

I don't, I want to get on.

819

:

Don't you know, there's stuff to do.

820

:

But when we take the responsibility to

make that connection, the yumminess that

821

:

flows through the body is astounding.

822

:

And it's the same when the two

of you just say, okay, we're just

823

:

going to hang together with no toys,

no distraction, see what arises.

824

:

Yes.

825

:

You can have a cup of tea.

826

:

This kind of work doesn't do

well with, uh, stimulants.

827

:

So if you're wanting to be

together and you've each just

828

:

had a quite strong espresso, it,

you feel a bit racy and buzzy.

829

:

And then when you hang together,

that buzzy raciness is calling

830

:

for action, not just being.

831

:

So you begin to choose less stimulating

substances in your life so that you can

832

:

have that stillness in which to connect.

833

:

I don't want you all to sit there

like nuns, but it is important.

834

:

Kiri Stejko: Somebody's asked about

different communication styles.

835

:

So you're talking about, I guess,

resting and sitting together.

836

:

What is your preferred

communication style?

837

:

Chatter through, talk through.

838

:

But then also, if you're with a partner

who's, um, You know, they prefer to be

839

:

reflective and silent, but the other

person really needs to vent and talk and

840

:

vent openly and continuously chatter.

841

:

I mean, two very different

communication styles in the same space.

842

:

One of which is comfortable

with what you've just talked

843

:

about, the other not so much.

844

:

Jean Gamble: Yeah.

845

:

So, so, um, then we have to negotiate

and respect each other's diversity.

846

:

It's what I said, there's two realities.

847

:

You need to talk it through

endlessly, I need some silence.

848

:

So I say to you, okay, I'm not good

at listening forever and ever, so I'm

849

:

giving you my full attention for 20

minutes, and you can tell me that story,

850

:

and you can get it off your chest, and

I'm giving you that much time for it.

851

:

I don't think 20 minutes is

enough, I need more time than that.

852

:

Let's try.

853

:

Let's see if I give you my full attention,

half an hour maybe, and I'll negotiate.

854

:

And you get half an hour, and after

that, I want to go into my space, into

855

:

my things, and just do what I need to do.

856

:

Okay.

857

:

And you say, OK, I'll try.

858

:

And you have that half an hour.

859

:

And you'd be surprised when

somebody's really there and willing,

860

:

you don't need to say so much.

861

:

A lot of that desire to keep

going is because you haven't

862

:

felt heard in the first place.

863

:

And respect that you are yabbering on.

864

:

Have that self awareness to know that

you've just said it, and then said it in a

865

:

different way, and then said how you said

it differently, and then said it again.

866

:

And actually it's enough already.

867

:

And respect.

868

:

And the other partner has the

courage to feel that and say, Look,

869

:

I think you're repeating yourself.

870

:

I've heard that what

you're saying is la la la.

871

:

It's wonderful to repeat back the message.

872

:

I've got it.

873

:

You're concerned about Johnny's

interview tomorrow and you think

874

:

the teacher's bullying him.

875

:

And I understand.

876

:

I have heard you.

877

:

Then you can rest.

878

:

But when the other person's so busy

backpedaling that you don't feel they've

879

:

heard you, you just keep on going.

880

:

So part of the communication is

that reflecting, yes, I get it,

881

:

this is what's troubling you.

882

:

I can't fix it, but I hear that

that's what's troubling you.

883

:

It's enormously comforting to have

somebody hear what's troubling you.

884

:

And you have to respect that that's

enough already for that person.

885

:

If you're just emptying your, you're just

filling up your space with words and they

886

:

don't want you to do that, then maybe

you need to look that that's what you do.

887

:

And try being quiet after you've delivered

your message and see how it feels.

888

:

A lot of this is around connecting

to self and self awareness.

889

:

Kiri Stejko: And somebody else has asked

the question that, uh, You know, whether

890

:

or not they're, she said, it may seem

silly, there are no silly questions,

891

:

but, um, you know, what's the benchmark

for a good relationship, you know, she's

892

:

been in a long term relationship and

doesn't know any different and sometimes

893

:

feels like maybe it could be better, but

then doesn't, you know, doesn't really

894

:

know because doesn't know any different.

895

:

Has always been in that same

relationship, three kids, long term

896

:

marriage, and it is what it is.

897

:

Is there, you know, any

kind of benchmark for her?

898

:

Jean Gamble: Well, I think the

benchmark that occurs to me

899

:

is how satisfied do you feel?

900

:

What's your level of fitness?

901

:

What's your weight like?

902

:

Because the body is the marker of truth.

903

:

And if you are living a life of

satisfaction, you probably have the right

904

:

BMI, the Body Mass Index, is probably

on target within a couple of points.

905

:

And you have a level of

satisfaction in your life.

906

:

If you're overweight or very underweight

and you're not fit and you're, you're,

907

:

um, you're dissatisfied, then I would

say there's a fairly high chance

908

:

that your relationship needs work.

909

:

And there's another topic that

we haven't even touched on

910

:

and that's the topic of hurt.

911

:

And when Kiri and I were working this

out, I initially had hurts in there

912

:

because often we, we get hurt by our

partner either inadvertently or on

913

:

purpose and then we react out of that

hurt place rather than saying I'm hurt.

914

:

I, uh, I feel the hurt and I'm not

going to react from that hurt, I'm

915

:

going to go towards the goal of

intimacy, harmony, joy, and let the

916

:

hurt go through, or explore the hurts.

917

:

But I'll come back another day and

we will talk at length for a whole

918

:

hour on the topic of hurts and how to

deal with them and how not to react

919

:

but to respond from who you truly

are and not from that hurt place.

920

:

Kiri Stejko: So we are out of time.

921

:

I do want to thank everyone for, you

know, taking the time today to focus on

922

:

yourself and also your relationships.

923

:

And I hope that you've, you know,

taken something out of today and

924

:

you'll walk away you know, the

intention to make some commitment to

925

:

change, which is where we started.

926

:

I wish everyone all the best.

927

:

If you'd like more information on,

on Jean, then as she mentioned, her

928

:

website is listed there on the screen.

929

:

And same for Parents At Work if we

can provide you with any support in

930

:

terms of, you know, career management

and juggling the balance between your

931

:

career and family, um, and also, you

know, for information on our future

932

:

topics, then go to our website as well.

933

:

Thank you to everyone, and thank you

especially to you, Jean, for sharing

934

:

your, you know, your knowledge, your

principles, what you've seen in life,

935

:

and what you've obviously learned

through your own experience and

936

:

also through that with your clients.

937

:

We really appreciate you

taking the hour with us today.

938

:

Jean Gamble: And thank you for the

opportunity to share, and thanks to

939

:

everyone who came on board to listen.

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