Hello and welcome to our webinar on Valuing Our Relationships.
2
:I'm Kiri Stejko, the Client
Services Director of Parents At
3
:Work and I'll be hosting you today.
4
:So let's get started.
5
:I mean, look, the journey into
parenting, it's a time of great change
6
:and adjustment for all families.
7
:Children, parents and
couples can feel they're on a
8
:rollercoaster ride of emotions.
9
:It's often uncharted territory,
particularly for the first child.
10
:And every family navigates
this journey differently.
11
:And for some, it can be
particularly taxing or
12
:challenging for our relationships.
13
:Relationship means different
things to different people.
14
:We are acknowledging it's not
just about, you know, a, you
15
:know, a mother and a father.
16
:You know, it could be your, with
your partner, of course, but also
17
:your children or your friends or, or
even the milkman, as Jean put it to
18
:me last week, which made me chuckle.
19
:Today's session will be covering
principles for valuing relationships
20
:that apply to all relationships,
no matter who it is with.
21
:And to talk to us about this, I'm
joined by Jean Gamble, who has kindly
22
:agreed to share her expert knowledge.
23
:Jean is a psychotherapist and a
relationship family counsellor
24
:with a busy practice in Sydney.
25
:She's been married for 40 years
and has two adult daughters.
26
:Jean grew up in Africa.
27
:She's lived in five countries
and she's worked in human
28
:resources in large corporates.
29
:Um, Jean is frequently interviewed
on radio about her work as a
30
:relationship therapist and we're
thrilled to have her share her
31
:thoughts with, with us all today.
32
:Welcome, Jean.
33
:Jean Gamble: Thank you, Kiri, and
thank you to parents at work for
34
:giving me this opportunity to, to
talk to everybody on your webinar.
35
:Kiri Stejko: Wonderful.
36
:So let's get started.
37
:To kick us off, Jean, I'm going to ask
you a, just an introductory question.
38
:Um, you know, Obviously, you see
a lot of people, a lot of couples,
39
:a lot of families, individuals.
40
:I mean, is there, if you could pick
out one common theme that you've seen
41
:with your clients over the years?
42
:Um, this is a tough question, but is there
anything that you hear consistently in
43
:your work as a relationship therapist?
44
:Jean Gamble: There's two things, but
the thing that mainly jumps out at me in
45
:response to your question is how often
people, admit that they hold this sort of
46
:a bit secretly in the back of their heart,
and it's not something one trots out at
47
:cocktail parties, but it, it is that,
that secretly you could be living a life
48
:that's more satisfying, richer, deeper,
more meaningful with richer relationships.
49
:And when I ask people that question, Is
it possible that you could be living a
50
:more satisfying, more connected, more
meaningful, life and relationships,
51
:invariably the answer is yes.
52
:And that, that always leads us into
the kick off of, well, if we all feel
53
:that way, why are we not living that?
54
:What is it that stops us from living,
where people would say to you, could
55
:you be living a more fulfilling life?
56
:And you say, no, I'm at my max.
57
:Wouldn't that be wonderful?
58
:Kiri Stejko: Wouldn't that be wonderful?
59
:It's what we aim for, isn't it?
60
:And I suppose the people that have taken
the time to join this webinar today,
61
:I hope, I'm sure that they feel that,
that there's something they could be
62
:doing to lead a more fulfilling life,
and that's what they're working towards.
63
:And I understand that makes sense,
that that's a common theme for sure.
64
:So let's move into what you
wanted to cover today, Jean.
65
:If you'd like to introduce the overview
of the general topics that you intend
66
:on sharing, that would be great.
67
:I'll hand over to you.
68
:Jean Gamble: Thank you, Kiri.
69
:So it's an hour that we've got and
there's an awful lot to relationships.
70
:There's loads of books being written
and loads of courses being run and
71
:loads of therapists being trained.
72
:So I had to limit what we were
going to talk about so that it's
73
:covering a lot in a short time and
the overview that I want to give
74
:you is firstly to commit to change.
75
:So that whatever the relationship
is, even with the milkman, you
76
:want to make, you both agree that
you want a better relationship.
77
:And then the second thing would be to
focus on stopping the momentum of our
78
:lives, of the relationships we are in.
79
:Because sometimes we don't
even know we're in a momentum.
80
:We're just sort of on the mouse
wheel and trying to get through.
81
:Particularly, I would think, a lot
of the audience, Here today are
82
:working and they've got children
and relationships and life is busy.
83
:We all know that we live in a very busy
city and we're sometimes not even aware.
84
:So that's the other thing I wanted
to address was stopping the momentum
85
:and then connecting with our bodies
enough to know what we need, in our
86
:relationships, and not sort of second
guessing what we think we're supposed
87
:to need because of what's out there,
but actually deeply becoming aware of
88
:our own needs, and then learning to
express our feelings around those needs.
89
:When we can do this, uh, we can,
we're cooking with gas, and part
90
:of that learning to express it's
not about I want to talk to you,
91
:it's about I want to listen to you.
92
:So, it's a two way thing expression.
93
:It involves you saying how it is for
you, and then you being prepared to
94
:listen how it is for the other person.
95
:So, communication is essential.
96
:And then lastly, we'll
look at prioritizing time.
97
:You know, people say, Ah, I don't have
good relationships with my friends.
98
:And then you ask how many, how
much time they have for their
99
:friends, and there is no time.
100
:There's no, it's impossible to
have relationship if you don't
101
:make time for the relationship.
102
:It needs to be fed and watered and
fertilized and that takes time, you know.
103
:Kiri Stejko: Wonderful.
104
:So let's kick off with the topic of
committing to change and what that means.
105
:Jean Gamble: All right, so it's possible
I'm speaking to people who already
106
:have quite harmonious relationships
and they're saying, yeah, well I'm
107
:interested in how much further can we go.
108
:There could be people I'm talking
to who want a relationship, who are
109
:tired of being by themselves every
night or with the children on the
110
:weekends, and they were looking for
someone to share their life with.
111
:Or it could be people who are in
a relationship, but it's fraught.
112
:So I'm including all of
those, uh, those scenarios.
113
:When I say that, um, to begin
with, we need to make a commitment
114
:to changing what we've got.
115
:So, if we're in a decent relationship,
then we want to say that we can take
116
:this relationship to higher levels
of joy, intimacy, and playfulness.
117
:So that we are We're striving
for something bigger, deeper
118
:than that which we already have.
119
:And if we are looking for a
relationship, then we're committing
120
:to that kind of a relationship.
121
:We're not committing to finding
somebody who likes me and then I'll
122
:be whatever they want, which we call
codependent relationship, which is
123
:really not healthy and so, that's
the first thing I would address is
124
:that, get an agreement between you.
125
:Even if it's your colleagues at work,
to say, let's take our relationships to
126
:higher realms, who would like to do that?
127
:And there may be some that don't, and
then they're not, they're not pressured.
128
:It's only up for those that want to
go to, um, to more intimate levels
129
:or a deeper level of friendship
or support or appreciation.
130
:And then the second thing to
look at here is to be clear on
131
:the purpose of the relationship.
132
:So, some relationships are about
friendship, and some are about co working
133
:or joint projects, and some are about
romantic love and, and becoming a, you
134
:know, your one true love, a coupledom.
135
:And, um, inside of that relationship
that's not the purpose of the
136
:relationship, is the friendship.
137
:Really.
138
:You know, people say, oh,
we're in pursuit of happiness.
139
:This is a bit Dalai Lama.
140
:People say, oh yeah, I want to be happy.
141
:But actually, happy is pretty
much ordinary these days.
142
:And it's fleeting, you know.
143
:There's a big football match this
weekend with the semifinals and the
144
:people whose team win will be happy.
145
:But next week when their team loses,
you know, they won't be so happy.
146
:So, we're not really that
crash hot on happiness here.
147
:We're looking more for joy.
148
:for a deep self sense in the
body of joy, of joyfulness.
149
:And that's, that is, you know, we say that
happiness is fleeting and joy is eternal.
150
:And so what we want in our relationships
is to build the level of joy that
151
:we have in ourselves and in the way
we relate to the people around us.
152
:So if we say the purpose is
to bring more joy into the
153
:relationships, how do we achieve that?
154
:Then that's quite a good, um, a good,
uh, marker of, of, of where we go.
155
:So,
156
:Kiri Stejko: Jean, sorry to interrupt
you, but we have a question from a
157
:single parent who, um, in terms of being
clear on the purpose of relationships,
158
:you know, has made the comment that
sometimes there's mixed purposes.
159
:So, you know, when you are a single
parent of children, you're both
160
:the rule maker and the enforcer.
161
:And so, you know, to have an underpinning,
a goal, I suppose, or purpose of bringing
162
:in more joy and yet having to also be
the guide and the person who, you know,
163
:teaches and disciplines, you know, where
do you bring joy into the context of
164
:discipline in that, in that scenario?
165
:Jean Gamble: Without trying to sound pie
in the sky, I would hazard to guess that
166
:where there is joy in the relationship,
enforcing the rules is a lot easier.
167
:So if the person, if my listener there
is saying that I'm, I'm so busy enforcing
168
:the rules and being the, the, the model.
169
:that I don't have time for joy, then I
would suggest we need a reprioritizing
170
:of what the relationship is about.
171
:And I've raised teenagers, so I do know
that it's not a cakewalk, but um, it's
172
:certainly if you're focused and agreed
on, on going to a place of more joy, of,
173
:of deeper levels of appreciation, and
you both agree to that, then enforcing
174
:the rules gets easier because it's
part of the agreement that we've made.
175
:It's not like I'm always on your
case telling you what to do.
176
:It's that this is it.
177
:Kiri Stejko: Yeah, this parent is
talking about young children under
178
:the age of five where an agreement
can be more difficult to achieve.
179
:Um, you know, then as
the kids get a bit older.
180
:But I hear what you're saying
is, you know, come from a place
181
:of joy and have joy as the goal.
182
:Jean Gamble: The children will be more
on board when it's joyful than when it's,
183
:when it's grumpy and ruling enforced.
184
:Kiri Stejko: Absolutely.
185
:Jean Gamble: And then the last thing
about this concept that I'm introducing
186
:is that in order to do all this, we have
to be connected to ourselves and people
187
:might ask, well, what does that mean?
188
:Being connected to yourself means that you
are tracking the sensations in your body.
189
:You have a level of awareness.
190
:That tells you what you are feeling,
and whether you're in reaction,
191
:or whether you're responding
to the situation around you.
192
:And when you're busy and you've got small
children and they don't listen to you, or
193
:even teenage children who are particularly
not good at listening to you, it's quite
194
:difficult to stay connected to yourself
and level and observe in your reactions
195
:and not giving in to them and acting
out of them, turning into a screaming
196
:banshee or a critical mother or father.
197
:So, it's that level of awareness
that we are striving for that
198
:can actually, um, can take us to
this new level of relationship.
199
:So the work is involved
in connecting to yourself.
200
:Before you are connected to
yourself, the level that you connect
201
:to others is always superficial.
202
:If you do not have a ongoing, working
on level of connecting to yourself,
203
:and when we get to that place, we'll
um, we'll talk more about that.
204
:One of the, I've been in this business
for a long time, in the field of
205
:personal development and self awareness.
206
:And I've done a lot of things,
including walking on hot
207
:coals in a moment of madness.
208
:Uh, but at the time now, in my
dotage, in my Sixtieth decade.
209
:Um, the most satisfying and effective
way that I've found of connecting
210
:to myself and for my clients and
customers to connect is through
211
:a process called esoteric yoga.
212
:And you can find this on the web, there
are quite a lot of people offering
213
:it now, there's trainings in it.
214
:And it's different from other yogas,
because it's the yoga of connection.
215
:You don't move very much, you lie still
on the floor, and you think about your
216
:left leg, and you hang out with your
left leg, and after a while you compare
217
:your left leg with your right leg, and
you're gobsmacked at the difference.
218
:Because the cells in your left leg
have felt your level of connection.
219
:They felt you being with
them and responding to them.
220
:And it changes the relationship,
it changes the chemistry
221
:in the body when we attend.
222
:Because every cell has a
small brain called a nucleus.
223
:And these nuclei can register
when they are being attended to.
224
:And when they're being ignored.
225
:And just like all human
tissue, if you think of babies,
226
:they love to have attention.
227
:They're geared to get our attention
with their big eyes and their cuteness.
228
:And so when we attend to ourselves
at a deeper level, we engender
229
:a sense of joy and satisfaction.
230
:In every cell in our body.
231
:And that thing spreads
throughout the body.
232
:And when we abandon ourselves to
the busyness of life, to the mouse
233
:wheel, to getting things done, to
ticking the boxes, the cells recognize
234
:that they're not being attended to.
235
:And they're miserable.
236
:And therefore, so are we.
237
:Kiri Stejko: And so in that, in
that context, we've had a question
238
:saying, how do you initiate the
conversation with your partner if all
239
:you ever talk about are your kids?
240
:On this topic of connecting to yourself,
do you, I mean, would you say, take,
241
:you know, if the conversation with your
partner is all about the kids, then
242
:it's potentially the case that you are
also all about the kids and then you
243
:would recommend taking some time and
focusing and prioritising, connecting
244
:with yourself and from there you'll
go to connecting with your partner.
245
:Is that, is that probably
something that might make sense?
246
:Jean Gamble: Yes, and you can, you
can do this together if you're willing
247
:partners, you can say, let's, let's
launch into a program of connecting
248
:with ourselves and each other and not
always making it about the children.
249
:So if your partner only wants
to talk about the children,
250
:then it's communication.
251
:Whenever I want to get closer to
you, you talk about the children.
252
:What's actually going on here
is you're using the children
253
:possibly to push me away.
254
:And what is the fear of going into a
more intimate, a deeper connection?
255
:Because we will pull in whatever we can
to avoid that deeper intimacy, because
256
:it's unknown territory, it's uncharted.
257
:So quite often the unconscious plays
out and we hold a person at bay with a
258
:particular topic, like the children, in
order to avoid going deeper together.
259
:So, how you do that is
you pick your moment.
260
:You don't find the moment when your
partner's just walked in from work after
261
:a busy day and has to get changed in order
to make the gym on time, or the cat's
262
:just thrown up, or the baby's screaming.
263
:That's not a good time to
discuss how we can work at a more
264
:deeper intimate relationship.
265
:A better time is when the kids
are in bed, when you've got some
266
:time together, and you say, let's
prioritize a time to talk about this.
267
:I heard about this on a webinar
today, and I want to practice it.
268
:I want to play with it.
269
:Come, and I want to tell you what
I, what my, what my plans are.
270
:And you make a time.
271
:You say, It's not now.
272
:You bring your diary, and we're going to
make a time to actually talk about this.
273
:And you treat that as if it were, a
business meeting that you've put in
274
:your diary, or a doctor's appointment.
275
:It's not just, yeah, we've said we'd talk,
but there's no time now, so we fob it off.
276
:You have to commit.
277
:The word at the top of the
slide is committing, and there
278
:is a level of commitment that's
required to make this work.
279
:There's no magic wand.
280
:Kiri Stejko: Beautiful.
281
:Um, another question on the topic
of connecting to self is just, uh,
282
:someone said, I'm very hard on myself.
283
:Do you have a number one tip
on how to be kinder to myself?
284
:Jean Gamble: Yeah, I used to be very hard
on myself as well, and I still can, when
285
:I'm stressed, fall into that, that habit.
286
:And it's a matter, again, of the
awareness that I talked about, and
287
:clocking when that voice comes in.
288
:Oh, you're so stupid.
289
:Why did you do that?
290
:Oh, oh my God, I forgot that.
291
:I always forget those appointments.
292
:And you catch the self talk.
293
:You become aware enough to catch the
self talk, and then you say, I refuse
294
:to allow you to talk to me like that.
295
:It's a beginning, a process of self
appreciation, where you start to
296
:ditch those hard, harsh voices.
297
:Think of the cells.
298
:Every time you recriminate or you're
down on yourself, all the little cells
299
:faces turn into downward turned mouths.
300
:And when you're appreciative and
loving of yourself, all the little
301
:cells faces are smiling, and they're
jumping up and down and happy.
302
:So it's to take responsibility
for stopping that momentum
303
:of critical self talk.
304
:Kiri Stejko: I love that.
305
:I like the, you know, the, I mean, it all
starts with self awareness, doesn't it
306
:and then moves into, as you said, self
appreciation as opposed to, um, you know,
307
:being hard on yourself, but it comes
back to being connected to yourself.
308
:So the person that asked that question
actually already begins with self
309
:awareness because they are aware
that they're hard on themselves.
310
:So now it's about Catching
that self talk, as you said.
311
:Yep.
312
:Thank you.
313
:Okay, next, next topic,
stopping the momentum.
314
:Jean Gamble: The thing I wanted to say
here was about stopping the momentum.
315
:So lives are busy, and sometimes we're
not even aware of the fact that we're
316
:on this mouse wheel just trundling
along, next, next, next, next, next.
317
:So we have to stop and take
stock of what we're doing.
318
:And that again requires a discipline.
319
:It could be through that process of
esoteric yoga where you have to take
320
:an hour out of your life and lie on
the floor and feel how you are today.
321
:Or it could be a short meditation.
322
:And there's lots and lots of
meditations on the website.
323
:In particular, there's a website called
Unimed Living, which offers a variety of
324
:free meditations where it's just a stop.
325
:You don't have to sit cross legged
with your fingers in a special
326
:mudra and hum on top of a mountain.
327
:This is designed for people who
are in life and who are busy.
328
:And it's just a matter of checking
in with yourself, where am I at
329
:and what is the quality of my life?
330
:What am I living in the moment?
331
:And so that's the momentum, is to stop.
332
:And then you can, from there, you'll
speed up again, and we all do, and
333
:then you go, Ah, I've speeded up.
334
:Once we know the difference between a
speeded up momentum and a momentum that's
335
:more still, we can start to choose.
336
:But when we have no awareness, we don't
even know we're on the mouse wheel.
337
:So it's a matter of building
the awareness again.
338
:And we can, we can move
on to the next one.
339
:Kiri Stejko: I do have a question though
before we do, some, somebody has asked
340
:um, you know, carrying on from the last
slide but also in this one, if, if both
341
:people in a relationship do commit to
change, you know, is, is a, and you
342
:know, they've stopped and they've taken
stock of where they're at and it doesn't
343
:feel like it's a good place, is the
relationship in your experience and
344
:from what you've seen ever too far gone
to enjoy, to, to find that joy again?
345
:Jean Gamble: Look, I can't say the
answer to that because I have worked
346
:with couples who have got separated and
I've worked with couples who've come
347
:from a place of deep sort of loathing and
they're very respectful and loving now.
348
:So it depends on the couple.
349
:It can't, no one can make a call for
any other persons, but if both of
350
:you are prepared to commit to change,
then you're ahead of the eight ball.
351
:And we'll come a little further down
the track when we talk at the next
352
:slide about how we can arrange to stop
shooting each other in the foot and
353
:how we can arrange to keep moving to:
does this serve our purpose, no, okay,
354
:then we're not going to do it anymore.
355
:So, you start to cut the energy of the
criticism and the blaming and the who
356
:shot Jonny and rather focus on where
do we want to go in our relationship.
357
:In my own relationship, my husband
and I, we did two and a half years
358
:of couples therapy, oh, I think
about ten years ago, maybe more,
359
:and it transformed our relationship.
360
:We're now more loving, more tender,
more appreciative and kinder to each
361
:other and ourselves than we were before.
362
:And, uh, and we were quite
far gone to think, well, do
363
:we really want to pursue this?
364
:Is it worth it?
365
:We're not having a lot of fun.
366
:So I'm quite a positive, uh,
proponent of yes, change is possible.
367
:Kiri Stejko: And it's about keeping
an open mind on the possibilities,
368
:particularly, as you said, when
both are committed to that change.
369
:Jean Gamble: Yeah, that's right.
370
:And, you know, there's sort of, this,
this, um, knowing what we need is an
371
:important concept, because a lot of us
are second guessing what we think the
372
:other one wants and trying to be that.
373
:And this, This is a recipe for disaster.
374
:Because resentment builds in.
375
:Because I'm pretzeling myself
to become what I think you want.
376
:And you aren't even noticing.
377
:So then I get very resentful because
you don't even notice all these
378
:lovely things I'm doing for you.
379
:But actually you don't
even really need them.
380
:I think you need them because I need them.
381
:So we project what we want onto our
friends, and then we give them that,
382
:and then when they don't notice,
we get a bit fed up and resentful,
383
:and I can tell you, love cannot
grow in a garden where the weeds of
384
:resentment are stifling the plant.
385
:So it's really important that we can
feel what's needed for us, and then we
386
:start to give ourselves what we need.
387
:When we do that, we give our partner
or our friends permission for them
388
:also to give them what they need.
389
:The number of people I see in my practice
who say, Oh, I've committed to going out
390
:tonight, and I'm so tired, I really don't
want to go, but I can't let them down.
391
:Well, if they rang you up and said,
Look, I know we made an arrangement,
392
:but I'm exhausted, so I'm not
going to, I'm going to break my
393
:word and I can't make it tonight.
394
:Then next time they're feeling like
that, they ring you up and say,
395
:Look, I can't make it, I'm exhausted,
I don't want to come anymore.
396
:So it was a good idea at the time,
but now I don't want to play.
397
:We start, when we start to be real,
we give everybody else permission to
398
:be real, and we break this facade of
pretending that we have to keep our word.
399
:Or we, We have to be
as they want us to be.
400
:And it's the same in an
intimate relationship.
401
:When one of you starts saying,
Oh, no, I don't like that, then
402
:the other one feels, Oh, well, if
you can say that, then so can I.
403
:And it may get a bit rocky to
begin with, but it gets real.
404
:Rocky and real is much better
than superficial and fake.
405
:So when we connect and we know what
we want, and then we can ask for this,
406
:and we're prepared to allow the other
person to know what they want and to
407
:ask for it, we're cooking, we're on the
road to building a better relationship.
408
:So we begin to ditch the martyrdom
and the sacrificial parenting.
409
:And we say, I can't pick you up, I
can't drive you to sport, I'm too
410
:tired, I'm busy, you'll have to
catch a bus, or you'll have to go
411
:with a friend, there's no transport.
412
:So we start to do things
where we're not the martyr.
413
:We matter.
414
:We count.
415
:And when we model to our families and
our friends that we matter, we give
416
:them the modeling that they also matter.
417
:And they learn to say no.
418
:But if all they've ever heard is yes,
okay, alright, I can cancel my appointment
419
:to have my hair done and I will drive you.
420
:Or I will stay up until 2 in
the morning to pick you up.
421
:No, you can come home at midnight
because 2 is too late for me.
422
:So, it's, it's that kind of um, ditching
the martyrdom and having what you want and
423
:giving others the permission to have it.
424
:And, I must add, you won't
always get what you want.
425
:At least knowing what it is and asking
for it is a hell of a lot more real
426
:than pretending you have no needs.
427
:And getting resentful because the other
person doesn't deliver what you're hoping
428
:they can telepathically know you want.
429
:Kiri Stejko: That telepathy
is a common thing.
430
:You know, a lot of the, um, a lot of the
people that we speak to in our coaching
431
:work through Parents At Work are, you
know, just transitioning back to work
432
:after having had babies and fall into
a pattern of kind of doing it all,
433
:I suppose they do everything at home
and they do everything at work and try
434
:and meet the Everyone and sort of go,
well, you know, I guess I'll just have
435
:to do it because that's the pattern.
436
:Um, and they're in that very early baby
stage and it, and it's, you know, it's
437
:about, like you said previously, taking
stock of where you're at and actually
438
:reevaluating, you know, ditching that
martyrdom and thinking, well, actually,
439
:no, I do need to ask for help and
reevaluating where things are at in the
440
:partnership, um, in terms of parenting.
441
:Jean Gamble: Yeah.
442
:And I think we raised Kiri in a climate
where um, asking for help is like weakness
443
:or, um, you've got to cope, you know?
444
:And it's so, it's so non community
because when you do ask for help you
445
:get so many people willing to help you
and you can then feel you can help them
446
:in response and it builds community.
447
:Whereas doing it all by myself is
very three year old, as we know.
448
:I want to tie my shoelaces all
by myself even though I can't.
449
:But we could hopefully learn that
we don't have to do it all by
450
:myself by the time we're adult.
451
:Mmm.
452
:Kiri Stejko: And like you said at the
start, I think it can, you know, it
453
:can start out where you're just in,
in the habit of it but slowly those
454
:seeds of resentment start to build
and over time they grow into weeds and
455
:then they grow into plants and you can
find yourself in a, you know, quite a
456
:resentful place if it's not addressed,
you know, early on, I suppose, when you
457
:recognise that, that kind of martyrdom
has taken over and you just do it all.
458
:And feel resentment about that.
459
:Jean Gamble: And you know, there's
a common saying that women have
460
:an issue with self loathing.
461
:Nearly every woman I know admits secretly
to self loathing, except for the ones that
462
:are hiding their self loathing under a
fake front of no, I'm absolutely awesome.
463
:Um, and men, men fear rejection.
464
:So when this plays out in a
couple, is that I will do anything
465
:to avoid my self loathing.
466
:So I'll make you love me,
and then I feel better.
467
:And then, that's kind of not so productive
because when you forget to love me
468
:or you're busy or you're preoccupied,
I feel terrible because you're not
469
:feeding me that, that, that, that I need
in order to combat my self loathing.
470
:And then you keep feeding
me that if you're the male
471
:because you fear rejection.
472
:And so if you don't keep feeding
me, I'll get upset and not like
473
:you, and then I might reject you.
474
:And so we have this relationship based
on my need for you to love me so I don't
475
:feel myself loathing, and your need to
fulfill that so that I don't reject you.
476
:And it's so fake, and it's so
exhausting, that it isn't what we
477
:call the grounds of real relationship.
478
:And I often work with couples to
put that out on the table, that
479
:the woman needs to learn to love
herself and appreciate herself.
480
:and not look for that from outside.
481
:And the man needs to accept that
if he doesn't do as she wants, and
482
:he gets rejected, he will survive.
483
:He will not die.
484
:And when you make your agreement up front,
you agree not to storm off in a huff.
485
:You agree to process things at a time
that's, even if you have to re diarise,
486
:because we haven't resolved this, we'll
keep talking next Saturday afternoon,
487
:and we'll make time for it then.
488
:And then you go back to it.
489
:You agree not to storm off in a
huff, because that is not productive.
490
:You also agree not to yell at each
other, because that's counterproductive.
491
:So there's certain rules of
engagement that you make.
492
:Stonewalling is not good, and neither
is removing yourself, unless you're
493
:getting so angry that you're going
to hurt yourself or somebody else.
494
:Then you say, I have to stop
this, I'm getting out of control.
495
:But you don't use it as a weapon to leave.
496
:Kiri Stejko: I just have a question that
asks about, you know, what happens if
497
:neither of you are willing to compromise?
498
:Jean Gamble: I would query why.
499
:What is underneath that?
500
:Who's frightened of going deeper?
501
:Who's frightened of what it might mean
to be a couple that really loves and
502
:appreciates each other and be envied
by all the other couples in the school?
503
:Because if neither of you is prepared,
I mean, it could be on a particular
504
:issue like, um, whether the kids
need to do their homework or not.
505
:So I think homework's a crock,
and I've, I didn't, I grew
506
:up doing none, and I'm fine.
507
:And you think homework's absolutely
important, and if they don't do their
508
:homework, it's a, it's a fatal thing.
509
:So we have to, we can agree to disagree.
510
:So, a lot of what happens in coupledom,
and even in friendships, is that, I can't
511
:rest until you agree with my viewpoint.
512
:And so I think it's blue, or
I think homework's important.
513
:And, uh, you, until you say, Yes, Jean,
homework's important, we can't rest.
514
:So I always bring in here this
concept that there are two realities.
515
:There's my reality and
there's your reality.
516
:And if we have children, there's their
realities, and even the reality of
517
:the cat and the dog and the hamster.
518
:So, it's important that I can
say, Okay, your reality is that
519
:homework's not important, but
mine is that it is important.
520
:So when the kids are with
me, they do their homework.
521
:When they're with you,
that's their business.
522
:So we have to really respect the viewpoint
and the territory of the other person.
523
:And not say, when you're more like
me, then we can be harmonious.
524
:Because both of you are saying, when
you're more like me, then you've
525
:got already a separation in there.
526
:When we come into a friendship or
a relationship, we bring all the
527
:patterns of our family of origin.
528
:So we are not going to be like each other.
529
:So we do get always these dilemmas
in the relationships because we come
530
:from poles apart of family values.
531
:And that's to give the offspring
the best chance of a middle road.
532
:So we have to allow the input of the
other to be there in the relationship.
533
:It's constellated that way for the benefit
of the progeny, of the, of the children.
534
:Kiri Stejko: Beautiful.
535
:Thank you.
536
:Next topic.
537
:Express yourself.
538
:Jean Gamble: Yeah.
539
:So this also means listen to the
other person expressing themselves,
540
:because I have encouraged one party
to express and they then monopolize
541
:the next two hours for what they want.
542
:So it's not, it's a dialogue.
543
:Uh, if I tell you that I want
this, how does that feel for you?
544
:So it's opening the dialogue in
a way that you are expressing,
545
:but opening a dialogue.
546
:And the first of that is to
assess what's really important.
547
:So for children, you know, it's important
that they don't run on the road when
548
:there's a rig coming towards us.
549
:Uh, it's important that
they, um, are happy.
550
:It's important that they, um, function.
551
:And some things aren't so important,
and yet we can get bogged down
552
:in perfectionism as parents.
553
:What will other parents think if our
child goes to school in their pyjamas?
554
:They'll probably think, wow, I wish I had
the guts to send my kid in her pyjamas.
555
:So if they won't get ready for
school, or kindy, or whatever it is,
556
:you just say to them, that's fine
sweetie, you can go in your pyjamas.
557
:And the only person who
really cares is you.
558
:So if there's a thing like
power struggle going on around
559
:that, get to what's important.
560
:Running in the road in front of
the traffic, not a good idea.
561
:Playing with a neighbor's Doberman,
Rottweiler, also maybe not so wise.
562
:But you know, there are other things
that don't really matter, except that
563
:I'm a bit uptight, haven't connected
deeply with myself, and are on this
564
:mouse wheel of thinking it matters.
565
:So I'm sorry if I sound a bit judgmental
here, but I do see this a lot, and having
566
:been through the stage of having young
children, and thinking that things really
567
:matter, and now having a 31 year old and
a 28 year old and realizing that none of
568
:that really did matter, I can give you
that wisdom of an old lady that a lot
569
:of what we worry about doesn't matter.
570
:And the other thing is
attending versus doing.
571
:Um, you know, people in
relationship need to be attended to.
572
:So it's not so much about what I need
you to do, it's me being there with you.
573
:Being present to you, attending to
you, what you're saying, hearing you.
574
:So often when we're busy, we will listen
to the other party while we're doing our
575
:emails, or we're chopping up the food.
576
:So I'm not saying you do everything,
but it's not really easy to answer
577
:your emails and listen to your partner.
578
:So it's the quality, again, the quality
that we bring to the relationship, where
579
:we are attending and we are listening,
and if we have a partner who needs to
580
:talk at length about his work, or her
work, and it's boring as anything, then
581
:we have to say, we have to have, what
are my needs, I've heard enough now,
582
:I need to go and run the bath, or get
the children ready, so you say, It's
583
:interesting what you're telling me, but
I can't listen anymore because I now
584
:have conflicting goals, so I'm going
to not attend you anymore, rather than
585
:pretend to be listening when you're not,
which leads to the resentment again.
586
:So we're building on
truth, being truthful.
587
:With what I can and can't manage.
588
:And not pretending I can manage
everything and then giving it a
589
:half a lick when it needs a whole.
590
:Kiri Stejko: Do you think these principles
can apply equally in the workplace?
591
:So in the relationship of a
manager and a person, a subordinate
592
:reporting into a manager.
593
:Um, you know, if, if you do not trust
your manager, how do you, you know,
594
:approach this commitment to change and
express yourself and, and assess, you
595
:know, what's important to yourself, but
also get that message across to a manager
596
:that, that the trust has been lost with?
597
:Jean Gamble: Yep.
598
:So that's the communication again.
599
:It's having the connection with yourself
and the awareness to know what's going on.
600
:And then having the courage
to bring it into relationship.
601
:So you ask the boss for a deep
and meaningful, you book a time.
602
:You don't catch them on their
way past the photocopier.
603
:And you say, I'd really
love to talk to you.
604
:And then you say, you know, it's
occurred to me that I've lost trust
605
:and I would love to rebuild it.
606
:But in order to have that, we
need to come to an agreement
607
:that that's what's going on.
608
:And what are my chances
of getting this happening?
609
:So you, you front up
as all of who you are.
610
:Life's about evolving, becoming more,
not capping ourselves and limiting
611
:ourselves, and I know you need the money
for the job, but you'd be surprised when
612
:you approach it in absolute sincerity
and truth you often get heard in a
613
:way that you don't if you do it in
a sort of petulant or negative way.
614
:It's in truthful sincerity where you can
say, this is what I think's going on.
615
:You know, I work with clients
one on one, and quite often my
616
:clients give me information that
I am not doing a very good job,
617
:or they like it done differently.
618
:And I feel the reaction in me, and
then I open my heart, and I say to
619
:them, okay, tell me more about this.
620
:What was it exactly that I did, and
what did you feel when I did it?
621
:And I learn so much when I can open to
that, rather than say, oh yes, well I'm
622
:the expert, I'm the psychotherapist,
you're paying, and I know best.
623
:And I don't think a lot of bosses
have that attitude either, unless
624
:you're unlucky enough to be
working with someone like that.
625
:And then maybe have a good look on Seek.
626
:Kiri Stejko: But give it a good try first,
627
:Jean Gamble: You know, and maybe
if you've tried and failed, then
628
:you're too sexy for that game.
629
:And then be prepared to listen
to the other's viewpoints.
630
:So even with the boss, they may say,
Yes, well you're saying that I'm on your
631
:case the whole time, but you've been in
late to work now nine days out of ten.
632
:And, you know, it's not a good, if I don't
call you up, then what about the others?
633
:And, you know, you've got to see it
from the other person's perspective
634
:as well as expressing your needs.
635
:Be prepared to hear theirs.
636
:Because often we don't see our part
in it And I can put my hand up for
637
:that when I was in couples therapy.
638
:And, and my husband would say what
it was that he'd seen me doing.
639
:And I had absolutely no idea
that I was behaving like that.
640
:All I could see was how he was being
such a, um, a negative, um, force.
641
:Or picky or critical.
642
:And I, and when I heard him
saying what was going on for
643
:him, I, I, I couldn't believe it.
644
:If you're really stuck, then going to a
couple's therapist is a very good idea,
645
:because that third party, that witness in
the room, forces you to hear each other
646
:in a way that you can't hear each other
when you're at home together, or when
647
:you're having a mediator in the workplace.
648
:If you can't, if there's a relationship
there that's really stuck, get mediation.
649
:Because the third brings in a whole
different energetic quality to the
650
:discussion, to the communication.
651
:Kiri Stejko: Absolutely.
652
:And it helps to, uh, to, to encourage
that deeper connection and the deeper
653
:intimacy that you were talking about.
654
:You know, it could take getting off
the, the, the daily sort of functions
655
:that we all go through, but talk
about what's really going on, you
656
:know, behind the scenes, as you say.
657
:Jean Gamble: And in, I've just had a
thought in response to the person who
658
:asked the question, what if neither
of you is prepared to compromise?
659
:When you both know where the goal is,
what do I really want out of, I want a
660
:harmonious, joyful, intimate relationship,
then does holding to my guns here and not
661
:compromising, is that more important, or
is the where we're headed more important?
662
:And you do a stock take, you assess
it, and you say, actually, I could
663
:surrender, here in order to get on
that road more with more clarity.
664
:And so it's not that you're giving your
power away it's that you are choosing
665
:consciously to surrender to what's more
important to them because you can see how
666
:that would take you more towards that goal
of joy and intimacy and a deeper, more
667
:satisfying relationship than sticking to
your guns on the issue of who takes out
668
:the bins or how much money you spend.
669
:So, you know, it's kind of, um,
look, look, when you, when neither
670
:of you is prepared to compromise,
look into the higher goal and ask
671
:yourself, could I surrender here?
672
:In other words, you lose the
battle, but you win the war.
673
:Kiri Stejko: Beautiful.
674
:Jean Gamble: And here we come a little
bit now to this next slide of priorities.
675
:How are we going for time?
676
:Kiri, are we on?
677
:Kiri Stejko: We're doing well, actually.
678
:We have just over 15 minutes left and, um,
and the questions are coming in nicely,
679
:so we'll just keep going as we are.
680
:Thanks, Jean.
681
:Jean Gamble: Alright, so, in terms of
your priorities here, of course the
682
:first priority is to make the agreement.
683
:Is to say, I think it
could be better, love.
684
:What do you think?
685
:And he says, hell yeah.
686
:And then we say, okay, if that's what we
both want, then we're going to make that
687
:the umbrella under which we are living
and so every time there's stuff going
688
:on you both look up to the umbrella or
one of you points to the umbrella and
689
:you go, is this serving our new brawley?
690
:And the answer is no.
691
:Cut the energy.
692
:Ditch the argument.
693
:It's not about who's winning.
694
:It's not about who's right or who's wrong.
695
:It's about are we going towards what
we both want or is this in the way?
696
:And if it's in the way, you just open
the trap door and drop it through.
697
:It's a huge relief to do that.
698
:So that's the first priority.
699
:If the first priority is to make
that arrangement, that you're
700
:going to a higher level, then you
prioritize time with each other.
701
:That was that thing where we say,
not doing, but being with each other.
702
:So that your time becomes space.
703
:And you make space for being together.
704
:And if other things don't get attended
to, again, look at your priorities.
705
:What's important here?
706
:The other thing we have to learn to
do is appreciating self and other.
707
:So, it's impossible to love someone
else unless you love yourself.
708
:And it's impossible to appreciate
someone else unless you are
709
:capable of appreciating yourself.
710
:It begins at home with you.
711
:So you build in self
talk around other people.
712
:Wow, I'm smart.
713
:I did that.
714
:Well, how good am I?
715
:I got up early this morning, did
all the washing, and now I can
716
:go to work, and it's all done.
717
:I didn't sleep in.
718
:I appreciate the fact that I got out
of bed and did what was necessary.
719
:And I appreciate that I went to bed
early last night so that I could
720
:get up and feel good about myself
this morning and get a few things
721
:done before the working day set in.
722
:So personally, I go to bed around about
9 o'clock every night and I get up at 4.
723
:And I don't see a lot of
people between 4 and 6 always.
724
:I do sometimes because I have
overseas clients on Skype.
725
:But in that time in the morning, I can do
bone broth, I can do a lot of housework,
726
:I can do a lot of note taking and filing.
727
:And then I'm set up for the day,
because I have, I have valued myself
728
:enough to make myself to make it more
important that I set it up how I want it,
729
:rather than I get an extra hour's kip.
730
:And because I'm living lovingly,
I don't need that extra hour.
731
:I'm refreshed when I wake
because I went to bed early.
732
:So you begin to appreciate
yourself and to live in a way
733
:that fosters appreciation of you.
734
:And then that automatically, when
your cup is full, I promise you
735
:it flows out over onto the others.
736
:And when your cup is half empty
or empty, you cannot pour from it.
737
:And that's really.
738
:That's pretty much all I've got to say.
739
:Kiri Stejko: That's wonderful.
740
:I guess this is an opportunity if
anyone had any last questions, we do
741
:have, you know, about ten minutes if
you'd like to ask any questions of
742
:Jean while we have her on the line.
743
:Um, I'll just give it a couple of minutes.
744
:Somebody mentioned earlier that they
actually did that pyjama thing with
745
:their son today, and guess what?
746
:He changed, which I love.
747
:Um, you know, the threat is sometimes, you
know, enough reality for the message to
748
:get through, but it doesn't sound like he
actually got to his school in his pajamas,
749
:but well done to you for doing that.
750
:Jean Gamble: It's wonderful that you said
it's fine to go in your pajamas, you know,
751
:because we worry so much about what people
think, and everyone's in the same boat.
752
:Everyone knows what it's like raising
a family and what it's like to have
753
:kids, so if they were in front in their
pyjamas, then people will know, ah well,
754
:you didn't want to get dressed this
morning and your mum didn't fuss about it.
755
:How cool is that?
756
:Kiri Stejko: Yeah, and I, I agree
with you in that the only judgement
757
:that's happening in that situation
is probably us and ourselves.
758
:I know that if I saw another kid
in PJs at daycare, I would be
759
:applauding that parent for sure.
760
:I would have known there would
have been a battle and that
761
:that kid is learning a lesson.
762
:And the judgement wouldn't come from
those around but from ourselves and that
763
:comes back to the message of, of self,
you know, self kindness, self appreciation
764
:and actually catching that self talk and,
you know, removing judgement of ourselves.
765
:Jean Gamble: And what's important,
winning the battle of whether you get
766
:dressed or letting you go in your PJs.
767
:He's probably not going to
walk down the aisle in his PJs.
768
:We may make a few days at work, he might
go to work a few days in a row on the
769
:bus in his pajamas, but he probably
won't do that for too long either.
770
:Kiri Stejko: And somebody's asked
a question that they're in some
771
:habits, you know, how do you get to
the point where you break habits?
772
:So for example, um, you know, late at
night, um, both exhausted, long day,
773
:managing, you know, young children,
both working, um, and actually enjoy
774
:some silence, you know, once the
kids are in bed, and jump onto the
775
:phone, jump onto social media, play
some games online, both in silence
776
:but near each other, but not talking.
777
:But you get into these habits and
um, and you know, obviously these
778
:things are addictive as well.
779
:So some advice on how you break a
cycle, I mean, I guess it comes back
780
:to making commitment to that and then
having a joint commitment, but what
781
:are your thoughts, Jean, on that?
782
:Jean Gamble: I, I know this one really
well, and when I was doing difficult times
783
:in my, in my marriage, we had an office
each in the house, and boy, did we spend
784
:a lot of time in our offices separately.
785
:So, you have to, again, come together,
and it's about the being, not the doing.
786
:Which was one of the slides.
787
:So, you have to say, Look, I've noticed
that, you know, it's the end of the
788
:day, we're both tired, and we're just
chilling, and you're playing Tetris,
789
:and I'm reading something on the
internet, and is this what we want?
790
:And then you prioritize time.
791
:Now, everything in life pulses.
792
:And as I'm saying this to you, I'm holding
my fingertips up together and pushing
793
:my hands in and out, like a kind of
um, spider doing press ups on a mirror.
794
:And so everything pulses.
795
:So you can't say, Okay, we're going to
be with each other, and then you're like
796
:two of those fish with big lips, and
your lips are glued together and you're
797
:stuck together for the next 24 hours.
798
:You have to come together, have a quality
of connection, and then pulse away, and
799
:then come together again with a quality
of connection, and then pulse away.
800
:You can't withstand, oh, I have to be
connected now, and we're connecting,
801
:and we're connecting, and the strain
is killing me, and all I want to
802
:do is reach for the telly or the,
or the device on which I can game.
803
:But you don't allow it to rule that
we're gaming all the time or we're
804
:ignoring, like we're snuggled up on
the couch and I'm doing my emails and
805
:you're, you're playing World of Warcraft.
806
:That's not the way and let's hang out
and see what arises in that space.
807
:And it's quite freaky.
808
:You feel a little bit
fruity when you do it.
809
:It's like, well, there's nothing arising.
810
:Here we are hanging, and frankly,
I'd rather be playing Tetris.
811
:But you still stay there,
and you feel what it's like.
812
:And you gradually build a deeper
and deeper tolerance for being
813
:together with no distraction.
814
:It's a whole relearning.
815
:It's the same when we
connect with ourselves.
816
:It's like, I don't want to lie
down for half an hour and feel my
817
:feet on the floor and lift my legs
up and roll my back and stretch.
818
:I don't, I want to get on.
819
:Don't you know, there's stuff to do.
820
:But when we take the responsibility to
make that connection, the yumminess that
821
:flows through the body is astounding.
822
:And it's the same when the two
of you just say, okay, we're just
823
:going to hang together with no toys,
no distraction, see what arises.
824
:Yes.
825
:You can have a cup of tea.
826
:This kind of work doesn't do
well with, uh, stimulants.
827
:So if you're wanting to be
together and you've each just
828
:had a quite strong espresso, it,
you feel a bit racy and buzzy.
829
:And then when you hang together,
that buzzy raciness is calling
830
:for action, not just being.
831
:So you begin to choose less stimulating
substances in your life so that you can
832
:have that stillness in which to connect.
833
:I don't want you all to sit there
like nuns, but it is important.
834
:Kiri Stejko: Somebody's asked about
different communication styles.
835
:So you're talking about, I guess,
resting and sitting together.
836
:What is your preferred
communication style?
837
:Chatter through, talk through.
838
:But then also, if you're with a partner
who's, um, You know, they prefer to be
839
:reflective and silent, but the other
person really needs to vent and talk and
840
:vent openly and continuously chatter.
841
:I mean, two very different
communication styles in the same space.
842
:One of which is comfortable
with what you've just talked
843
:about, the other not so much.
844
:Jean Gamble: Yeah.
845
:So, so, um, then we have to negotiate
and respect each other's diversity.
846
:It's what I said, there's two realities.
847
:You need to talk it through
endlessly, I need some silence.
848
:So I say to you, okay, I'm not good
at listening forever and ever, so I'm
849
:giving you my full attention for 20
minutes, and you can tell me that story,
850
:and you can get it off your chest, and
I'm giving you that much time for it.
851
:I don't think 20 minutes is
enough, I need more time than that.
852
:Let's try.
853
:Let's see if I give you my full attention,
half an hour maybe, and I'll negotiate.
854
:And you get half an hour, and after
that, I want to go into my space, into
855
:my things, and just do what I need to do.
856
:Okay.
857
:And you say, OK, I'll try.
858
:And you have that half an hour.
859
:And you'd be surprised when
somebody's really there and willing,
860
:you don't need to say so much.
861
:A lot of that desire to keep
going is because you haven't
862
:felt heard in the first place.
863
:And respect that you are yabbering on.
864
:Have that self awareness to know that
you've just said it, and then said it in a
865
:different way, and then said how you said
it differently, and then said it again.
866
:And actually it's enough already.
867
:And respect.
868
:And the other partner has the
courage to feel that and say, Look,
869
:I think you're repeating yourself.
870
:I've heard that what
you're saying is la la la.
871
:It's wonderful to repeat back the message.
872
:I've got it.
873
:You're concerned about Johnny's
interview tomorrow and you think
874
:the teacher's bullying him.
875
:And I understand.
876
:I have heard you.
877
:Then you can rest.
878
:But when the other person's so busy
backpedaling that you don't feel they've
879
:heard you, you just keep on going.
880
:So part of the communication is
that reflecting, yes, I get it,
881
:this is what's troubling you.
882
:I can't fix it, but I hear that
that's what's troubling you.
883
:It's enormously comforting to have
somebody hear what's troubling you.
884
:And you have to respect that that's
enough already for that person.
885
:If you're just emptying your, you're just
filling up your space with words and they
886
:don't want you to do that, then maybe
you need to look that that's what you do.
887
:And try being quiet after you've delivered
your message and see how it feels.
888
:A lot of this is around connecting
to self and self awareness.
889
:Kiri Stejko: And somebody else has asked
the question that, uh, You know, whether
890
:or not they're, she said, it may seem
silly, there are no silly questions,
891
:but, um, you know, what's the benchmark
for a good relationship, you know, she's
892
:been in a long term relationship and
doesn't know any different and sometimes
893
:feels like maybe it could be better, but
then doesn't, you know, doesn't really
894
:know because doesn't know any different.
895
:Has always been in that same
relationship, three kids, long term
896
:marriage, and it is what it is.
897
:Is there, you know, any
kind of benchmark for her?
898
:Jean Gamble: Well, I think the
benchmark that occurs to me
899
:is how satisfied do you feel?
900
:What's your level of fitness?
901
:What's your weight like?
902
:Because the body is the marker of truth.
903
:And if you are living a life of
satisfaction, you probably have the right
904
:BMI, the Body Mass Index, is probably
on target within a couple of points.
905
:And you have a level of
satisfaction in your life.
906
:If you're overweight or very underweight
and you're not fit and you're, you're,
907
:um, you're dissatisfied, then I would
say there's a fairly high chance
908
:that your relationship needs work.
909
:And there's another topic that
we haven't even touched on
910
:and that's the topic of hurt.
911
:And when Kiri and I were working this
out, I initially had hurts in there
912
:because often we, we get hurt by our
partner either inadvertently or on
913
:purpose and then we react out of that
hurt place rather than saying I'm hurt.
914
:I, uh, I feel the hurt and I'm not
going to react from that hurt, I'm
915
:going to go towards the goal of
intimacy, harmony, joy, and let the
916
:hurt go through, or explore the hurts.
917
:But I'll come back another day and
we will talk at length for a whole
918
:hour on the topic of hurts and how to
deal with them and how not to react
919
:but to respond from who you truly
are and not from that hurt place.
920
:Kiri Stejko: So we are out of time.
921
:I do want to thank everyone for, you
know, taking the time today to focus on
922
:yourself and also your relationships.
923
:And I hope that you've, you know,
taken something out of today and
924
:you'll walk away you know, the
intention to make some commitment to
925
:change, which is where we started.
926
:I wish everyone all the best.
927
:If you'd like more information on,
on Jean, then as she mentioned, her
928
:website is listed there on the screen.
929
:And same for Parents At Work if we
can provide you with any support in
930
:terms of, you know, career management
and juggling the balance between your
931
:career and family, um, and also, you
know, for information on our future
932
:topics, then go to our website as well.
933
:Thank you to everyone, and thank you
especially to you, Jean, for sharing
934
:your, you know, your knowledge, your
principles, what you've seen in life,
935
:and what you've obviously learned
through your own experience and
936
:also through that with your clients.
937
:We really appreciate you
taking the hour with us today.
938
:Jean Gamble: And thank you for the
opportunity to share, and thanks to
939
:everyone who came on board to listen.