Welcome to The Mind Body Marathon: the podcast that puts you on a path to a healthier lifestyle–whether you’re a daily runner or just finding your footing.

On today’s episode, Dr. Leo running expert is joined by his wife, Samua Kormanik, who, despite having ran several marathons, hates running. Together, they’re diving into the emotional and mechanical dynamics of running marathons, revealing how this demanding sport shapes the body and the mind.

Marathons are not merely about running 26 miles; they are a holistic challenge that tests your physical readiness and mental fortitude. Samua shared her experiences with self-doubt before races, while Dr. Leo discussed the lessons learned from not finishing marathons. This conversation highlighted the need for thorough mental and physical preparation, acknowledging that sometimes, the mental barriers are as taxing as the physical ones.

Running tightens more than just your schedule; it tightens your body and can even play a role in how your skin ages, thanks to the impact on fascia. Dr. Leo, with his background in sports medicine and physiology, detailed how running influences everything from bone mass to muscle density, and the crucial role of body mechanics in avoiding injuries. Understanding individual physicality can significantly enhance your training and prevent common running injuries.

Yet, running is more than biomechanics. It’s about the joy of pushing your limits, the simple pleasure of movement, and sometimes, the therapeutic solitude of a long run. Dr. Leo and Samua shared personal stories that highlighted the emotional rewards of running, such as Samua’s touching recount of her daughter’s participation in a 5k race, shedding light on the inclusive spirit of the running community.

Beyond the physical and emotional, the episode also tackled practical tips for both aspiring and veteran runners, from addressing running-related injuries to embracing the communal joy of themed races like the upcoming Disney 10-miler.

Remember to tune in next week for more insights aimed at helping you lead a healthier, more balanced life. Your health is a marathon, not a sprint, and the Mind Body Marathon is here to help you set the pace. 

Key Takeaways:

1. Mental Fortitude Equals Physical Strength: Dr. Leo emphasized the importance of mental resilience over physical prowess in marathons. Successful runners cultivate a strong mental game to complement their physical training, meeting both visible and invisible challenges head-on.

2. Tailored Training is Crucial: Acknowledging individual differences in flexibility, strength, and overall body mechanics is vital. Dr. Leo discussed the necessity of customizing stretching, strengthening, and recovery plans to fit personal needs, which helps in achieving better performance and avoiding injuries.

3. The Joy of Running: Both hosts delved into the intrinsic pleasures and motivational aspects of running. For Samua, running offers a sense of personal accomplishment and emotional release, while Dr. Leo sees it as a means to enjoy physical exertion and mental clarity.

4. Understanding Your Body Mechanics: It’s essential to know how your body works. Dr. Leo’s insights into the mechanical aspects of running—such as how the sport affects bone density and muscle tightness—can empower runners to make informed decisions about their training regimes.

5. Community and Inclusion in Running: Running is for everyone. This episode underscores the inclusivity of running, celebrating how it brings people together, fosters communal support, and encourages individuals of all abilities to participate and enjoy the myriad benefits of the sport.

K. So here we are. So this is the mind body marathon podcast, and I'm Leo Kormanik, your host. And this is my beautiful wife, Samua. And, again, this podcast, what we're really trying to do here, mind body marathon. So there's an idea of, like, addressing your mind and health of your mind, but also your body. And then sort of a little bit of a play on like, for the marathon of life, but also, like, we come at it from a running background. And, which is our topic today, which is essentially, I hate running, which that's pretty much, the creed of of my wife, Samoie.

She has done many a marathon. How many marathons have you done?

I don't know. I think one of the funniest things about our relationship was up until, what, 2020, I had actually ran, like, double the amount of falls that you had, if not more.

Yeah. Yeah. So

Nobody would ever believe that.

Yeah. And so Think 6. 6?

I think so.

So I've I've more than doubled her now so that's good. So I'm the real runner in the relationship.

We balance we balance the reality of our relationship now.

Yeah. Well, what's interesting so so that's the thing, is I, the reason why I wanted to have you on here is that a lot of people don't like running, which is fine. Running comes very easy to me, but it doesn't for a lot of people, and we'll talk a little bit about that. And just curious on how you even got started with it and just sort of the background of, like, what interest you in the first place with running.

Well, I can thank Keith Urban for getting me into running. But really, my friend Bry, we were on a road trip to a Keith Urban concert. And on the way back, Naomi, our 17 year old, who's autistic, had just been diagnosed. It was the end of that summer, and I had gone through the whirlwind of all these different appointments and billions of fights with insurance companies and just trying to get her set up. And that had kept me busy in my mind going. And then now, like, that had kinda settled, and I was gonna start her on her path of what I thought was the best option. And my friend Bry brought up to me that she had ran the Disney marathon, and she knew my love for Disney. And on this road trip back was like, we should we should do a Disney marathon and fundraise for autism with it.

And just as a way to kinda think she recognized of keeping me occupied, keeping my path going, distract me a little bit from the new reality of life. And so that's what we did. We looked it up, and Disney had a half marathon. This was, like, September, early September. Disney had a half marathon coming up in January, and we decided to sign up. There were still spots available, which was shocking, especially if you're in the Run Disney World now that in September, just 4 months before the marathon, there was still open spots. Nowadays, you can't get open spots 4 seconds after it opens up. So

Yeah. Yeah. It's literally reality reality. So so we have Keith Urban, we have marathons, and then we have Disney. A lot of great

things there. Lot of great things. But yeah. And we kind of I was the girl in high school that we had to do this mile fit test. I don't know if that's still a thing, us 2000 grads. But, every year, I sucked at that. I did a mile in, like, 15 minutes or something. I don't even know what I was doing because I could walk a mile faster than that nowadays.

I remember 1 year even being, like, no. This year, I'm gonna try. And I still got, like, a 14 and a half minute mile with a side stitch at the end. So I generally hate running.

Yeah. It's it's it's cool because, not only have you done 6 marathons or so, but every year you keep signing up for stuff. I know. So why is that?

My friend Brian and I were just in, California to do the, Disneyland half, and we kept telling each other the whole weekend, like, our next girls' trip is not gonna involve running. Like, we're not doing a race. Our next trip is not doing a race. And then before we left the trip, we were super pumped and excited that we had just found out we got into the women's half marathon in Nashville. And so our next girls trip is going to involve running even though we're both over it and say that we hate it.

Yeah. And and next week so this is, we are releasing we're recording this in the middle of April, and next week, we're headed down to Disney to do a 10 miler together.

I'm gonna be Mufasa. And believe it or not, doctor Leo here is gonna run as Simba.

Yeah. So I'm gonna dress up. So, I dressed up for a Disney race one at a time. It was the Star Wars. Well, it's technically 3 races.

Races. You're set for all 3. Yeah. And even as a girl, I don't even know her character name. Was it Ren?

I don't know. But we did Star Wars themed stuff and it was fun. And I could see how that keeps people into it and and very interested in running. And, it's it's definitely unique dynamic to go to Disney and have that that experience sort of melded into it. I had never really seen any Disney movies prior to having my daughter Mariah, who's now 2a half. And so And now you

can sing along to, like, half of

the score. So now I can sing along to them. We we are having lots of great singing sessions with that in the car. But I get it now, you know, I see I understand the character and the character development, so I kinda get the appeal of the Disney races a little bit. This is like coming from somebody who's a little bit hard nosed in the in the running background of running in high school and college and He

won't even use a GPS watch. That hard nose.

Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. It's all about feel. Yeah. Well, which is why I actually am wearing this this Boston jacket right now, because this is being recorded on the eve of the 2024 Boston marathon, which I was supposed to run, but I'm injured. And so it it's not easy for everyone. You know, like, the sport definitely comes with a lot of bumps and bruises.

It is statistically, by far, the most injurious sport there is, and most people would say that's crazy. What about hockey? What about football, UFC? And, you know, statistically running about about 3 quarters of runners within a year will experience some sort of injury, and that is a staggering statistic. And it it doesn't come easy and so but, you know, in the end, I think it's still so appealing for so many people because of the history of it. People have been running for, you know, centuries and there's been races like the Boston that's well over a century now, and there's this appeal to all these races and there's so many cool things and such an easy way to just experience fitness and and new cities and new, you know, new territories and things like that. So I think it started sort of still has this unique appeal for a lot of people. Does that any of that appeal to you or is it all just like the fitness component?

No. Actually, I don't think the fitness component had much to do with it at all. There's a lot of other ways that I'd much rather focus on fitness than running, like, Zumba for example. I could Zumba for 6 hours and keep going.

Yeah. As soon as you can.

So that's not that's not the appeal. I think the appeal for it for me and I think a lot of people who are probably in my boat because I actually have another friend of mine who used to very proudly stamp a 0.0. I hate running or I don't run or whatever those bumpers are in her car, who now goes into run who's now signed up for her first, half marathon. I think a lot of it, the appeal for the people who hate running is overcoming that. It's the mentality that it takes to do something that is gonna hurt, that you probably aren't great at. You know, like, my mileage and how long it takes me. I don't have a lot of patience. That's probably, like, the main thing that I hate about running is just how long it takes me to do it.

But then when you're going through things in life where it's just hard you know, at the time, initially, the focus was the situation with my daughter being diagnosed with autism. But then there was also, like, the, you know, just a bad marriage situation that came into light at one point, realistically addressing that. And when you're running and it's so hard and your body aches and you're thinking the whole time, like, why the f am I doing this? The only thing that keeps me running half of the time is the fact that it I can get back faster and be done faster if I actually keep running and don't walk. It just makes you realize, like, I can handle this. Like, whatever life

threw at you, whatever

obstacle you're going through, whether it's a diagnosis, whether it's a job loss, whether it's a shitty marriage, you just kinda running empowers you to realize, like, if I can do this thing that I don't like and that is hard and that, like, I'm really having to find myself to keep going, then I can do these other things. And it's not even just the Disney races. Like, my my brother and I just ran Akron, which, you know, it's a fun race. It's a great race, very well put together. The energy of the city is great, but it's obviously not Disney. It's not a Boston marathon with that kind of a climate. But it's still, like, at the end when you finish, you're like, holy cow. Like, I'm a badass, and I just did this thing.

And and then you just walk off with that, like, reminding yourself. And so during real life situations, everyday situations, you can kind of fall back on that, or or maybe even your brain just kinda trains itself into that. Now you can fall back on, like, I can do this hard thing, or I can get through this shitty situation today, you know, this moment, and take it one step at a time just like you take one mile at a time.

Yeah. Yeah. There I heard a interview with the, founder of Black Girls Run a long time ago. About about 10 years ago, I heard this interview and she was like, you know, after her first marathon, you know, well, she sort of just, like, put it in her head, like, one day that she was just gonna run a marathon. And then after she did her first one, she thought to herself, like, what am I holding myself back from? Like, what else in life? You know, I thought all these years that I couldn't run and that running wasn't for me and but like I said in previous podcasts, like, running is not the thing. Running is a way to to teach yourself about life. It's a way to sort of, like like like, process discomfort and process, like, going through the hard things, and it really just hardens your body and your soul. And, you know, that's why it's addict addicting because everybody sees that translation.

Like, if you are firing in all cylinders with running, you know, you're a best better husband, you're a better wife, you're, you know, a better sister, you're better at work, you're better you're just better. And it it just, like, it's a feed forward mechanism, and so I think that's why it's very addicting because people get into it and then they realize, like, why am I holding my it was all mental in the first place. Like, you just you just literally have to just go do it and see that you are like everybody else that runs, that it's just that easy.

I wouldn't say it's that easy.

It's that easy to make the decision, but, yes, applying it is is difficult. But, yeah, I mean, it's but it translates. Right? That's the idea. But

I think for me to, so ironically, I grew up in Boston, and I don't think I even knew the Boston Marathon existed. Just not I mean, I grew up in a very much secluded not secluded, but, like, shelter, Brazilian culture of things, in Boston. And then I don't even I seriously don't think I knew, like and maybe maybe I knew about the Boston Marathon at one point, but had no idea, like, all that it meant, you know, between the history of the race, between how hard it is to qualify and get in, all of that. And I obviously didn't understand any of that until I, all of a sudden, was running a race and realized, like, how hard it is to get those qualification marks for the majority of people. I remember when I was in my early twenties living in Boston, Boston,

and my neighbor, who was, like, a year younger than me at the time, and

she had ran the Boston Marathon. And she was, like, the first person in my entire life that I ever met that had ever ran a marathon, that ever ran anything. And I remember thinking, like, having this feeling of, like, oh, I know people run marathons. I know they exist, but having this feeling like, you know, it's like like, oh, you're a real person. Like, let me touch you. Like, I know you. How do I know a person that runs a marathon? Like, I thought it was just, like, one of these the real things where, like, they exist somewhere. So then when I all of a sudden went to run myself, it was more like, oh, how am I that person now? Like, how am I this person that I kinda thought existed in, like, fairy tales and myths kind of thing.

Yeah. Which I think brought another layer to to it for me. I remember when I was running Chicago and, you know, one of the another great epic race, And I remember posting just before the start of the race, I had my phone on me and took a picture. And I remember and I think that was my 4th marathon maybe doing it. So I've done it 3 other times. Right? Didn't go into it prepared, but the reality is I haven't gone to any of my marathons prepared. But I remember posting, like, it was this beautiful skyline, you know, the sun's starting to rise and all of that, and thinking, like, even though I've done this before, I still stand here and feel like I need cry. Just like doubting myself, because I'm not, you know, like, I'm not like you.

Like, I still wouldn't even have called my I still I feel like today I still wouldn't call myself a runner. And then somebody posted, like, really? That's, like, amazing to hear because I see your runs, and I feel like you're such a badass and you got this, and yet, like, you're doubting yourself. And I think that's one of the things that for people like me who aren't these spectacular runners, and maybe even just hate running, you know, is what it does because it's like you're still kind of unsure, but then you finish it. And you're like, I started off scared and unsure of myself, but here I am. I did it.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's a a couple points on that. It's, like, interesting because, you know, for me, I've dropped out of 2 marathons. And, and so 26 miles is difficult for anybody. And

What's the crazy percentage? Like, 1% of the US population or something crazy?

Yeah. That sounds about right.

Completed a full

I mean, I think

Whether you run a 5 minute full or 15 minute Yeah.

Still part of 1 person. Yeah. Yeah. No. I mean, that's the thing. It's like it's 26 miles is legitimate. 26 miles. When I first when I when I was getting ready for my first marathon, my coach was like, there's 2 basic questions that we have to answer.

1, can you even run 26 miles period? And the second question is, can you run it at your desired pace? Because, otherwise, what's the point? And at that time, we were trying to qualify for the Olympic trials, and so that was a legitimate question because if I wasn't capable of running that fast, like, let's put our eggs in another basket and try to pursue some other measures with running. But, you know, and there was a way to be we properly tested that, but but it's still you know, I think I'm up to marathon 17 or something like that now. It's still it's still scary, you know, to toe the line. I mean, you can remember last year about a year ago when I ran the, Asheville marathon. It was terrible. I literally was whining the whole morning.

And I remember you saying to me, which I think is amazing and one of the reasons why I think you're amazing human being and I'm lucky to be married to you is when you're like, I don't feel like making myself hurt that much this morning.

Yeah. Yeah.

And that is what running is. Like, you're torturing yourself.

Yeah. And so sometimes, like, you they're on one hand, when you are about to race, like, when you're going to probably raise well is that's not what you're thinking about. Like, you you are, like, in a different state of mind, and you're not thinking about how bad it's gonna hurt. But then other times, you're feeling vulnerable and then you're feeling just like I had a migraine and it was freezing outside and I'm like, I don't wanna hurt right now. I literally just wanna lay in bed and, well, I went out and did it.

That's the good thing about the Disney races though. They distract you from that thought. Because you're more work worried about your costume and, you know, the makeup and how you and your friends match and getting all the pictures and then all of a sudden it's like crap, now we have to run.

Yeah. The running is definitely the second hand in in the Disney race is for you guys. But the worst thing is you guys gotta wake up so early for those things.

Yes. That is definitely the worst thing. 3 AM wake up calls, 2:30 AM wake up calls.

Yeah. Definitely need an app after those ones. Yeah. The other thing that you brought up earlier too is that, you know, the shock the you when you ran Chicago, that's kinda when I had initially met you, and you were working at the clinic and you were running on the Alter g. And I remember you did a 1 50 one long run. Yes. 17 miles. You did a 17 miler on the Alter g.

That was the only long run you did before the Chicago marathon. And,

that was one of like 3 runs I did.

Like what? Like 3 runs of any distance. Like, for for months prior to the race. And so this is a vital point I wanna make because this point was brought up when I was getting my photos done a couple weeks ago. Our the photographer, she for her birthday for her birthday, to celebrate her birthday, she ran a 50 k just for fun. And she same thing had not run more than a handful of times prior to that, like, for months. And that's the mental side of it. Right? That's the side of, like, well, I'm gonna just do it. Like, it so many times we're, like, think we have to be, like, properly repaired, and we're, like, almost really overtrain.

Obviously, I'm a sports physician so I see this and I pretty much make a living off people's, like, mistakes with injuries. And that's often a mistake is that people think they have to train too hard for these things. And in the end, it's just going to be a challenge on that day, and it's important to understand that that it's you just have to get to the line healthy and confident and prepared. And your confidence cannot sit in sit there based on your workouts. You you have to be internally confident, which is the scenario that you were in. You just knew you're gonna do the race. You just knew you're gonna still complete it. It.

Yeah. But I obviously knew I wasn't going to, like, qualify for Boston. Right.

But you

because there's definitely different mindsets there, you know, for the people that, like, just wanna finish it or just wanna see that I can do this thing. Although, like, you know, right going into running Akron, I was in the same boat. I hadn't, ran in, like, what, 9 months? And my brother was coming into town who likes running, and I had the bright idea that for, like, half a second, I had this brain fart that, like, oh, which is enough for the half marathon in Akron because it's going on that weekend in such a phenomenal local race. And, you know, I know he would like it. It'd be fun to do with my brother. And then half a second later after I sent my text and he had already replied yes, I was like, what the hell was I just thinking? Because now the race is, like, 6 weeks away and I haven't ran and I should and I'm running with my brother who's gonna give me so much shit if I'm, like, slow. So, you know, just like the like, thinking through that of, like, just doing it and pushing myself though for that race even though I wasn't trying to qualify for Boston, and it was different than just, like, my Disney races with my friends that were just like, we just wanna look cute in our matching costumes and get to the finish line and get good pictures with characters. I did have this, like, sense of, oh, man.

I gotta keep at least a certain pace. You know? I'm not gonna be running fast, but I'm not trained at all, and I gotta try to keep up with my brother. So I can hear as little as like, 8 fifties. Yeah. That's shocking. It is shocking. Yeah. I'm not like, 850.

Yeah.

That's shocking.

It is shocking.

Yeah. Because on most runs, you just typically go out around 10 minute mile 10 minute miles.

Yeah. Yeah. So so even so even when you are trying to hit a certain time goal, again, just that mentality of digging deep into yourself. And and at race day is different too than running around your neighborhood. Just the energy, the people, the DJs, you know, the the people cheering you on, but then the racers around you as well. Yeah. And just seeing, like and just seeing everybody's energy, and you can feel the people that are, like, just proud of themselves. And, you know that, you know, you you don't know what demons they might be fighting or what they're overcoming, but you know that it's more than just, like, putting their foot in front of the other on that race day that there's other conquerors conquest going on in their head and in their heart.

Yeah. I've I've had many of patients, when I'm treating them just, like, look me blankly in the eye and just like you don't understand I have to keep running. Like, I need this. And again you don't know what they're battling. You don't know what scenarios are going on, you know, behind closed doors or that they're trying internal demons that they're trying to battle, but but but that's my point. Right? That is that running is just a way for them to sort of, like, work through these things, but also, build up confidence in yourself. Because in the end, if you're holding yourself back physically, you're also holding yourself back mentally. And so that's that's a huge thing.

What was that study that you just mentioned with is it David Goggin? Something about when you do things that you hate Oh, yeah. Develops in your brain.

There's like, the anterior midcingular cortex in the brain. It's like a little region in your brain that they're recently discovering. It's like a nucleus of neurons that are really, that are well developed in individuals who have done things that are sufferable, that, basically physical pain, it has to be physical pain, that you don't wanna do. So they realize that, like, holocaust survivors or, like, POWs, people that in situations like that, they have a really well developed portion of their brain that that I would just refer to, the anterior meds inguinal cortex. And, you can also train this by, by, like, doing things that you don't wanna do like running.

Like running.

Like running a marathon if you're like, dude, I I I I'm not meant to run. I'm not born to run. That sounds terrible to me, but then I'm yeah, I'm gonna go run. Well, that's how you develop it. This is important because, she mentioned David Goggins and he is obviously somebody that has if you guys know who that is, he's somebody that has really dug into that a lot.

Well, even involuntarily because he was physically abused. Yeah.

Yeah. So he had a pretty traumatic childhood And, you know, so then it it's like and most people think he likes running. He actually hates running. Like, that's one of his big things and

so Oh, I have David Goggins in my camp.

Yeah. Well, that I mean, so but the whole point being here is that when you develop this, it's considered the seat of the will in the body. They're finding out that people who survive like Centurions, like people who survive over a 100 years, they have a really well developed portion of this brain. They fought through things. Things were not pushed for them their whole life. There was definitely some physical mental trauma. Whether it was, you know, self induced or not, didn't matter. It it this portion of your brain sort of, like, provided the seat of the will, and, it allowed for these individuals to fight through whatever internal disease would be trying to take them down, like, as they age, you know, whether that be cancer or heart disease or whatever, like, they just they're just grittier, deeper people from that end.

Running is the most accessible and simple way that you can apply this. You know, you just strap on a pair of shoes and you can go run. You don't need gym membership. You don't you know, there's there's this funny stat where running booms always tend to happen around recessions and depressions because, people realize, like, it's simple. You literally just go out your door and do one foot in front of the other. And and that's why I think it's also somewhat addicting to people because it's so accessible.

Yeah. I would agree with that. Again, not easy, but accessible for sure.

Yeah. And the easy portion is important to consider because, it is a rich get richer sport. You know, the the concept that, like, when you see on TV, like, an Olympian running and they just look like they're jogging, they are very well developed for that. Their tendons are well developed. They have trimmed out any excess mass. They're very just slim and just ready to go and just primed for it. That is not the average person. That is not even me after being, you know, elite runner at one point and just taking a couple weeks off.

I mean, it happens to everybody. Inertia happens. But what's the most important thing to consider is that when you begin to run, it takes about 2 to 3 weeks to really build up somewhat of a routine with it. And you are most likely to get injured in those 1st 2 to 3 weeks. And so it's important to understand, like, you just gotta hang in there. Like, just try to get through the 1st month of routine with it, you know, trying to run sort of every other day or definitely no more than 2 to 3 days off in a row. It's a, sport where consistency is key. So if you run once a week, that's not going to be good because you're not going to get the consistent development in the tendons and the cardiovascular side of it, because you're literally fighting gravity.

So the mechanical side of your body you may have the cardiovascular, which is the case with her, but it took a while to develop the mechanical side of it, which is like building up the tendons and the bone mass, the muscle density, and just fighting gravity for 5 miles of running. You know, that's a very difficult thing to do. And so it does take a period of time for that development. And that's what I mean by a rich get richer because the more you run, the easier it becomes to run. Because your body literally goes, okay, so we're gonna change our morphology based on the demands that were being applied. So we're gonna slim up the muscle, we're gonna tighten up the fascia, we're gonna build tendons. Like when you run, you literally bounce and you can see somebody's like if you watch slow mo like the Olympics coming up this year, watch the slow mo of like the 100 meter dash, and you'll literally see people's face like bouncing. Like, our fascia literally bounces when we run.

That's literally my motivation at times to go outside in the winter because you've mentioned that before. It tightens

up in the past.

It tightens up. And then with the cold too, like Yeah. Like you're getting a facial the whole time you're running. Like, the other day when I went out running and it was way colder than I thought it was gonna be because a couple weeks before was a little bit warmer. And I I was hating it because I didn't dress properly. Yeah. And the whole time, my monitor running around the neighborhood was like, oh, this is just like, I had my eyes closed a few times. I'm like, oh, I'm just getting a facial.

My wrinkles were going away. This is gonna be great.

It does help with the wrinkles side of it because it it it tightens up the fascia. Right? So your body goes, well, we can't have all this loose mass bouncing.

The ladies, if nothing else, this is why you want to try.

That's inefficient. So it just wants to tighten it up. But, like, if you're just lifting weights, you're not you don't have gravity fighting you. If you're biking, you don't have gravity fighting you, swimming, all of that. So that's why running is uniquely different in that sense because every you are literally fighting gravity, so the mass coming down and back up, your body will wanna tighten things up, and it's it's kinda cool. So, you know, those it takes a period of time for those developments to happen, and there there is, you know, there there's a high risk for injury because when you're running, you're jumping from one foot to the next, and when you land, you land but 2 to 3 times your body weight. So if you do the math on that, like, a 5 mile run is like a couple tons of force that run through your body. And if that that tonnage of force That's

a crazy stat.

It's a it's an insane stat, but that tonnage of force of force from gravity and ground reaction forces compressing you. That tonnage of force is not properly displaced in the right tissues, then you will you will get injured. And so that's why it's really good to have a coach or a physician or somebody that, is wise in those those realms and can help encourage you to to run, but also, be an advocate for, like, helping you do it properly and and making sure that you're firing on all cylinders so you're not gonna injure yourself.

I think it's interesting, you know, the more that I've been around the clinic and listening to you talk to patients and things like that, Just how different all of our bodies can be and the mechanics of that. And so, for example, like learning that I had, like, 2 loose joints and what that means. Because a lot of times people always think, like, oh, you have to stretch. You have to be loose, and that's gonna make you better or make you less injury prone in any sport. You know, you always see people right before race, and they're, like, doing mini yoga poses to get their legs straight, and I had, like, the opposite. And so just like you mentioned, knowing the right doctor, you know, physician that can kinda that knows both running and the body so well to then say this is what your body needs because it's can be something totally different than what everybody else needs.

Yeah. And this is not a crazy concept because if you go to, like, a professional football or baseball basketball game and you watch just go like an hour early and you watch them warm up, you will literally see every athlete doing a different warm up. And that's because those physicians that work with those professional athletes understand that each athlete is actually slightly different in terms of, their the density of their tendons, the density of their joint capsules, how flexible they are. You know, if you wanna think of like a bell curve, you know, on one side of the bell curve, you can be too too flexible. On the other side, you could be too rigid. You know, if you think of like a Mary Lou Retton or somebody like Simone Biles, who's really flexible, or an NFL lineman who's really, like, dense and stiff and very doesn't have very good motion. That demands of the you know, that's why they're good in each sport. Right? Because the the the sport requires them to have certain certain mechanics with that.

Well, running is different. Right? Everybody is designed to run-in some sense. Some people have the ability and have the physical mechanics to be able to handle longer volume, but everybody in the sense is designed to run. We really have all these unique capabilities to do that. It's the most advanced non learned behavior that we can do, which is crazy. You could be a 100% mentally retarded and know how to run. Like, it's born it's in your brain. It's it does not have to be trained.

Well, it's so many years of the development of that. Right? Running from tigers and lions.

Yeah. Yeah. All that sort of stuff and so, I mean, there's just like an insane amount of of of cool research on that just showing that we were literally designed to run. There's a great book out there, Born to Run, so it's a it's a it's a cool idea. But, with that being said, when when you come to running so everybody has these different spectrum. So for in your case, you're overly flexible. Right? So you're Like, we

can't do a split. So it doesn't help me that way.

Yeah. There's there's that, but you don't need to split for a marathon. So or Zumba. But, so but then some people are overly stiff. So obviously if I just said that if I just ask the patient is stretching good? I mean, like, that's such a weird question. Right? Like, it's a relative question. It's good in some cases.

Would say yes. Yes. Everybody would think that, yes, you have to stretch.

Yeah. Every you have to stretch. Right? But sometimes people overstretch and then they literally injure themselves because they're creating too loose of ligaments. They they need to understand where they fall on that spectrum. Or if you go as lifting weights good. Right. Yeah. I mean, it is in some sense, but you have to understand where you're at on the spectrum to know what style of lifting, how much lifting, like, what joints to focus on, because it if it it even can be displaced in different joints.

Like, maybe you have really tight hips, but really loose knees or really loose angles, but very tight knees kind of thing. Like, you can be in those scenarios as well.

Which is why it's crucial that the person you see to help you with that knows what they're talking about.

Specifically with running and not just the general physician because most most people would just tell you not to run because it's easier to

That's one of the things that I think I've always loved about the clinic too. Because, like, as you mentioned, there's people that come in. You know, there's athletes that are coming in that are trying to get their Olympic trial markers or they're they're on an Olympic team, and they wanna make sure that they can compete and and perform at the Olympics. And then there's, like, the the middle of the road athletes and the weekend warriors as we call them that they're the people that they're running hard. They're they're very specific. They're qualifying for Boston. They're trying to do the majors or or so they're, like, not elite runners, but sort of elite runners. Then there's people like me that, you know, just kind of farting around, like, trying to run here and there because there's so much more about it than the actual run itself or goals of time.

But I loved how, like, no matter where they were with that, like, I think maybe twice in the 12 years we've been working together, I've heard you tell a patient, like, you can't run. That almost and and that and everybody comes in saying the opposite. They saw somebody else and that person told them, like, oh, you can't run or running is terrible for you running is terrible for

your knees.

Don't you know? Stop running.

I know, like, you go to a cocktail party. It's like, aren't isn't running bad for your knees? It's like, actually Don't you wish

we had a dollar for every time

you've heard that? Yeah. That is definitely one I would wish I had a dollar for. Yeah. I mean and and that's just the thing. It's like because the success rates of your average physician so say you go to a sports medicine doctor, one that's not, like, properly trained at the limited training center, one that has not worked with professional athletes, but are just a sports physician. You go to just a general one and then be like, you know, pick another sport, you know, but biking's better for your joints or swimming's better for your joints, which is true, you know, there's definitely like obvious There's

the elliptigo.

Elliptigo. There's that.

Those went away actually. They were like hot for a hot minute.

Yeah. There's actually elliptigo races that people do. They still go on. But, yeah. So your average physician will tell you that because one, it helps with their success rates. Because if they tell somebody, like, hey, you know, like, don't run anymore. You should you should just swim or bike. Like, they're probably gonna be a little bit less injured, but also they're gonna be less fulfilled because you took this thing away from them.

So it's like me personally, that's why I, like, I feel like I'm uniquely positioned for for, like, the running consultant idea of just helping a lot of people in these in this way is that I've I have been injured a lot, and I have run through some crazy injuries.

Well, I think also the fact that you went from quitting running to coming back qualifying for the trials Yeah. Then quitting running again to now coming back and having the sub three goal with only the 20 miles. So you kind of know what it's like to let it go, come back, let it

go. Right. Yeah. That's true. Like, I've had many points in my careers where I I took, like, years off, like, you know, at one point, I took 2 years off, and then at one point, I took 5 years off, and then I came back. And, you know, it's like it's not that I would got burned out, but I'm very despite what despite how much I work in a day, I'm very lazy when it comes to my, like, rehab.

I don't know that I would ever put lazy in here in the same setting.

I work a lot, but I'm lazy when it comes to, like

And I see you every like, I know the behind the scenes. Yeah. Lazy is not what I would

So I I don't really do a lot of core. I don't really do my rehab exercises. So I'd rather just, like so when I get injured, I often just, like, stop doing all that stuff and then just, like, focus on other things. And then So you're

your own worst patient?

Yeah. 100%. I'm a little bit well, I think that's beneficial actually because, this is your you are. I think I think that mindset is beneficial in terms of helping people because the average person, their life is pretty crazy. And if I if I was the kind of person that had all this time to be doing all this rehab and I spent 2 hours a day doing focusing all these exercises, like, then I couldn't relate to the average person. But I genuinely couldn't relate to the average person, so I try to make my, like, homework for them and my treatments for them very poignant, very direct, very targeted. So that way, it's like, there will get them better quicker, but, like, not overwhelm them. And I if I hadn't had that, sort of scenarios where I was just busy but consistently injured and, like like, I ran my fastest times coming out of grad school where I was getting a a doctor of chiropractic, a master's in sports injury management, and I was working and being a, teaching assistant the same time.

And I ran 2 18 in the marathon off of doing that.

The lazy thing again?

So that's the thing. Did I have time to do all my knee rehab and all my hip rehab? No, I didn't. But I made sure that all of my life around that was, like, proper, and like I was eating well and sleeping well, and those were nonnegotiables, And my mind was in the right place, and I was directed towards a goal. And then I felt like I I could rehab, like, just with a couple simple exercises, and that's the ticket. Right? Because most people have, like, multiple kids, and they have a crazy job, and then there's just a lot happening. And so running can't cut into that too much. And I think I think sort of born out of the environment has helped me relate to a lot of people because most people think it has to be this crazy way where I gotta do physical therapy 3 times a week or, you know, I gotta, you know, do an hour work of core and lifting and everything just to be somewhat healthy, and it's like, that's actually not accurate.

Yeah. I mean, it goes back to the conversation of are you just trying to run and have these goals of finishing these races feeling good, you know, not dying at the end of the finish line, or, you know, you're trying to run a 5 minute mile pace marathon, because, obviously, that's very different.

Yeah. I mean and and so that's the other side of what I experienced is where, you know, I came out of college and I put all my eggs in the basket, and I trained literally, like, 4 or 5 hours a day. And, so I I do I do understand what that's like as well of having to just really lean into a goal. But but I feel like the average person can get away with a lot less and still be really successful even qualifying for something like Boston just by being being very practical and and and actually connecting with somebody that genuinely understands their body and understands how to make their efforts very poignant and very direct so that they don't waste for time frivolously. Because I think a lot of times people go, oh, they'll say things like, oh, yo isn't yoga really good for running? It's like

Not for me.

Not for her. It would be absolutely terrible for her. And then but for, you know, a lot of runners who are very stiff and very rigid, yeah, it would be a wonderful thing. So, like, half the time I'm literally saying, let's when you go to yoga, that's great for the mind. Like, it's really good for the meditative side, but maybe don't maybe don't go and hammer the range of motion side of things because you're already overly flexible. That's what I would say to you if you really enjoyed yoga and that's that was your thing. But but somebody who is like who, you know, was really stiff, I would say, yeah. Go to yoga because you really need to, like, lean into those range of motions, and you really need to, like, spend a lot of time, like, stretching those hips out, etcetera.

So it it just sort of depends on what sort of variable you wanna flex with that. Like, are we gonna raise the base or the trouble here?

Well, that goes back to well, not that, but making me think of, again, the goals with the running, you know, because people like me who hate running, it's a nice way to to do certain things without feeling guilty about it. So, you know, it is a nice excuse to have our couple of times a year girls trips because you feel like you're being productive. You can get away. You can get out of town. You know, if you have kids, you don't feel as guilty of all the arrangements that you have to make. So you can so whether you're the runner who has these big lofty goals of, you know, Olympic trials, going pro, As you mentioned, even Boston, you know, seems attainable, but you have to put in a lot of good effort and be very intentional. Or whether you're a runner that just you're running for the mental side of it where you're reminding you know, escaping a little bit. It gives you a nice reasonable reason to escape the daily life of, you know, escaping home for a couple hours, whatever you might need to do, and then clearing your mind.

Even if the only clearing of mind that kind of happens, although there were so many runs that I remember getting hit with a thought that all of a sudden I'd be, like, crying or or dealing with whatever I was dealing with. But then just that reminder of I did this really hard shitty thing and accomplished it. So now I can go and apply that same mentality into whatever hard thing I'm dealing with on in the daily life and real life here. But then it also brings us good side of things, you know, like, my girlfriends and I, when we do our different races, like, for Nashville, my friend, Brian, and I are gonna be dressed up as Malibu Barbie with, what's that thing called, leotard and all, The great athletes. So it's just great because it's like it's a hard thing that you do, but you can make it fun. You can bring out that side of you if that's a side of you that you have.

Yeah. It's it's goofy. It's playful. It's it's like being a kid again.

Right. And and it's acceptable somewhat. I'm sure we're gonna get looks at Nashville. Nashville is not Disney. So I remember our first Disney race, the half marathon in January of 2011 that we did, And, we, like, got Minnie Mouse ears. So you've done Disney races, and now you know this. And we're like, oh my gosh. We're gonna be so cool because we're running with these, like, Minnie Mouse ears, and it's gonna be like and then we get there, and people are literally like tables and castles and houses.

And we're like, oh, crap.

People will literally run with, like, tables built around them for, like what was it?

Lady and the tramp. Lady and the tramp. So, like, restaurant scene where they kiss, which is why we came back because all of a sudden you know, like, I went into that training for that half thinking I because I hate running. And I'm gonna run this one race, and I will never again run-in my life. Like, that'll be it. Like, that's it. And then we show up, and we left that week and signed up for the full marathon for the following year. Yep.

Because and and and the big motivation was we gotta up our costume game. Like, this we were lame. We thought we were cool with these Minnie Mouse ears, and now we gotta come back and and have legit costumes. And that's been a big motivation to keep going.

Well so as we kinda wrap up our episode here, there's that's essentially what I wanna, touch on is, like, how do you keep going? And so so when somebody wants to get into running and they wanna challenge themselves in that way, it seems very daunting at first and but but, you know, what is a way for them to sort of, like, make it easier and make it more palatable and and also enjoying, the experience along the way? And and what would you say, like, for somebody that genuinely hates running, what would you say is is a great thing to add in there?

Well, I think I don't know, it's hard to say because everybody's so different, and what drives people are very different, and people's life stories and situations are different. Obviously, from a technical side of it, there's a lot of, you know, different things. Like, you can do those couch to 5 k programs. You can run you can join a local running group. There's the run walk method that Jeff Galloway does. So, like, I feel like all of that makes it very easy and accessible for the people that are getting started and wanting to do it and feel like it's such a daunting thing. Like, I can't run. You don't understand I can't run.

For me, one of the things that kind of kept me going at the time was also just, you know, my life story, the my background, there was just a lot of what ifs and could have beens kind of thing. And for me, like, going out and doing this thing that I didn't like to do and felt was really hard. And and this was different when I got back into running, which I don't know if I would say I got back into running because I still run, like, 6 times a year. But

Including races. Including races.

There was a couple of years there that I was a lot more, and then I kinda wasn't doing it at all for a bit. And then as we started to do races again, like, in 2020 or 2019 when we did Luxembourg. But so it's a lot harder the second time around. But initially, for me, it was just impressing myself going out and running a new distance that I had never ran before, or running the same distance with a harder effort and and finishing quicker, or if I, know, if I ran the same distance because a lot of times, I would just go out my front door the way that life was for me. I didn't get to, like, plan these cool runs and go to these cool, like, areas, which Ohio by us here obviously is amazing with. So I I did a lot of the same things. And so then, like, finishing the same run, maybe in the same pace, but feeling so much better, like, feeling like I could keep going, like, I didn't feel like death. All of those little things kinda kept me going and just kept, like, reminding myself, like, oh, what else can I do? Like, what you know, how else can I get stronger? Where else am I capable of? So I think that that part of it is definitely what kept me going initially.

Yeah. And and that's that's important. I I the the thing I would add in, that I would tell people when they're getting started is to embrace the joy of effort, and to sort of embrace all of the things that come with running. So meaning, the the going out, the all the different weather that all the different elements you're gonna be a part of, like Not

rain though.

You don't

have to go right in

the rain.

Maybe if it's a summer rain.

Yeah. Summer rain's pretty sweet.

Not in the winter.

But even, like, winter, like like she said, we're in Ohio and it's, like, there is a lot of joy in winter running. It's very peaceful, it's very calming, it's very quiet, you know, it's a way for you to As long

as it's not raining though. I can run-in the snow.

35 and rain is the worst ever. So let's put it that way. But, yeah, sort of embracing all the elements all the all the different seasons, the different smells, the different, wildlife, like, all of that. And and and the the the sheer joy of effort. Just being thankful that you can even do that. Like, a lot of people genuinely can't run. They are not capable of it, for for various reasons with disabilities and whatnot. But but it's like, you know, that that's often something that I think of as, like, I'm just, like, thankful that I can put one foot in front of the other, the joy of effort, you know, no matter what level I was at in my career.

I I appreciated that insight from from Joe Vigil. He would always tell his athletes, like, just just embrace the joy of effort. And there's something about, like, the sweating, the grittiness, the the triumphing, the effort of that day, and then tying that in with, like, all the experiences of it, whether in all the different seasons and, and and whatnot. So I I feel like that's that's one thing that I I I would encourage people to sort of embrace because that draws you out and no matter what phase in your life. So say, you know, you're 30 years old and you run a little bit and then you quit. Next thing you know, I have couple kids. Now you're 45 and you want us to get back into running. Well, you'll remember.

Once you get out on your first run, you remember, oh my god, I love this. I love, like, how the briskness of the weather, or I love the different colors of the trees in the fall, or I love hearing the birds chirp in the morning. Like, you like, there's those things that would draw you out, and those things will literally never go away. And so that will always keep being appealing to you. I think it's no matter

what people, like, love those things to begin with, though.

I think a lot of people do deep internally.

Well, I mean, like, while running though because those aren't thoughts that I ever have. Like, I'm not like, I mean, sometimes I feel like like I said, you know, like, the sun's in your face, but I I generally don't think that I have a thought of, like Yeah. I love having finished a run or a race

Well, there's the other and

how you feel about that.

You are bringing up with a good point. I'm I'm assuming that people aren't running with their headphones on.

That too. Yeah. Which I used to do all the time, and now I don't. Now I can you've you've brought me to the dark side and

Well, I think, like because people will go, like, alright. So I'll finish running. They go, what did you think about? Like, I was out for, like, 2 hours or something like that, and I don't know. I really don't know what I thought about because it's very mentally stimulating running, and so if you don't have any distraction of, like, headphones for, like, music or podcast or something like that, which I think that's okay occasionally, But I think, you know, like, at least half the time you should run without anything in, and you should, like, let your mind sort of wander and play and just sort of think about these different ideas, and that's how you develop creativity.

Yeah. But I remember running when I first started, and I used to run the towpath. And like I said, I pretty much I would just go to red lock and do the same same I mean, like, there was one time I had been running for what, like, 8 years at that point. We were married for a couple years already. And we started at RedLock, and we went left instead of right. And I'm like, I've never done that.

That's amazing.

Even though, like, I ran RedLock probably a 100 times, I always just would start the same way, go out and back. And and I always ran with music, and music is just such it it just speaks to me in a lot of different ways. And I remember at the time, I would, you know, there's certain songs. I was going through all these emotions with my daughter, and I would totally get lost in the music too, but also, like, shut it out. There were so many times that I remember, like, running at a certain place and looking around me and being like, oh, crap. Like, where am I? Like, I wouldn't even recognize even though I probably ran past this spot, you know, out and back on RedLock or starting on the towpath 50 times, it would still be like, wait. Where am I? Am I in the right place? Did I take a wrong turn somewhere? Like, what happened? Because I would just get so lost

in whatever I'm dealing with. Out thing. That's the middle checking out.

But even with music Your mind

went offline. Well, that's good. I mean, I think it, you know, obviously, music will sort of pull you away and maybe help you think about memory, certain things, and but you're right. Like it but but it's important for us to go offline at times. Like, if we think of, like, old school computers, like, you just needed to defrag them. I mean, you don't have to do that anymore now, but, like, nowadays, you just shut them down and then you pop them back up and they work like brand new. And it's like, oftentimes we have to do that. We sort of have to check out.

And I and I I would encourage people to embrace that side of it. That it's not just the physical component, it's also the minimally clearing component of running that I think is really important.

Another cool moment with running that has come full circle, I think, was just this far well, I think it happened last spring when Naomi asked about running.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Naomi is the her autistic daughter that that, is now 17, and she did her first 5 k.

Yeah. And and, again, going back to the universal aspect of running, and and you touched upon how everybody can run even somebody who's fully mentally retarded, which is not Naomi's situation. But

But she's severely autistic.

And, even she, like, you could see, like, she had this, like, different level of joy and, like, proud of like, pride of herself, moments throughout the race. And it was more than just about running through Disney World or seeing certain characters. As a matter of fact, I actually, I remember at the very end because I kept running ahead of them. She ran with my friend, Bry, the majority of the way, and I kept running ahead of them to get in line so that we could take pictures of the characters. But at the very end, once that was done and I just stuck with them, I would say to Naomi, I would be like, Naomi, I bet you can beat that person and I would just pick a group in front of us. And she would. She would, like, get down and and get focused and, like, hammer to get past that person, and then we would catch our breath, and then I would do that again. And she just kept doing that.

And even though she, you know, she obviously knew I don't know if she knew, but she wasn't gonna win the race. But even just those little conquerors for her meant so much. It was so motivating.

I mean, if anybody that's been around a special needs person or worked with special needs, I mean, when they get excited they will run. I mean, and they're just gonna run around. I mean, it's like it's just like a dog. Like, you come home, they haven't seen you all day, the dog's gonna run around. It's an exciting thing to do. I mean it's definitely but I feel like it's it's got this like negative connotation that we're we're trying to help unwind a little bit here in this episode. And yeah. So so but that was an amazing, thing that Naomi did.

She she actually has to go for a run. So and then my little 2 and a half year old daughter, she does the same thing now. So later, we'll go for a little run and usually when I come back, she'll be waiting at the window for me with her shoes and she wants to go out and run around.

Yeah.

So it's kind of a it's cool thing. So well, any last parting comments or or words for people that are, you know, sort of in the similar situation as you or or looking into kinda get reinspired a little bit with activity and running?

Yeah. I would say, you know, just do it. Sign up whether it be a local 5 k that there's a lot of buzz around. Definitely, if you hate running, definitely have your first race be one that is exciting in one way or another. Whether, you know, that's a local race to you, that is a big deal. Like, here, Akron has always been such a big deal to us. Or whether you do something like, you know, a fun half marathon. Doesn't have to be Disney.

Disney is always a great one, but there's other really good ones like running the strip in Vegas or international ones, things like that. But pick something like that that motivates you outside of the running itself, and then do it because you're gonna surprise yourself. And I think the reward of that is worth so much more than maybe the couple pounds you might lose or the pace you get, but just that mental fortitude. You know, if you're the person sitting at home, or at work and listening to this, and you're just like, but you don't understand. Trust me. I understand. Life can be so shitty and so hard, so I get it. And then torturing yourself with running seems like why would I do that? Like, why am I gonna add more torture, more misery to my day? But like I said, what you feel at the end of that when you push through that is an incredible feeling.

And then to be able to know that you did that, and then you can apply that same mental fortitude and and heart and and just pride to everything else that you're tackling. So just go sign up. From somebody who hates running, just sign up for that 5 k.

Yeah. That's that's great advice. I would say that's and I'm glad we touched on that because I think that's really important to have that carrot out there. I would say keep it social. You know, if if, if running is something running groups. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Yeah. Pub runs, that kind of stuff, like, you can do that, you know, there's Cleveland here, we have a pub runs often. I know a lot of major cities have that. There's social running groups and you might feel a little scared at first that maybe they're too serious and there may be some that are too serious, but there's there are others out there that are not that serious that there are, some people, you know, are just like there's there's a whole different spectrum of people with running and then there's there's a group out there for everyone. So I'd say keep it social, you know, talk to a friend, just have a friend come out and support you and if somebody doesn't wanna run with you, have them bike with you or something, like there's a way to kinda just have company with you to kinda help get you out the door and and and put one foot in front of the other. So I think this is a great episode and I think a lot of people can relate to some of the topics we brought up. And, you know, at some point, we'll we'll have, you back on, and we'll talk about our some of our other experiences with running because I I know we got a lot of great stories and and and even after some of our, come upcoming Disney races. So be sure to so we'll have a, like I said, episodes once a week or so.

Be sure to like our page before be sure to subscribe if you like the content, interact with us and let you know what you thought of the episodes and and what topics you wanna hear, with regards to mind and body health and, a little hint of running. So, again, thanks for stopping by, and, you know, we we're glad to have you.