Financial confidence during divorce starts with understanding your budget, gathering financial information, and learning how to negotiate without fear.

If you don’t understand your marital finances—or you’ve always relied on your spouse to manage the money—you are not alone. Divorce can suddenly require you to make decisions about budgets, retirement accounts, property division, spousal support, taxes, and your home while you are also experiencing grief and emotional overwhelm.

In this episode of Doing Divorce Different, Lesa Koski sits down with Certified Divorce Financial Analyst Rhonda Nordick to explain how women can build financial confidence during divorce one small step at a time.

Rhonda shares how her childhood experiences shaped her relationship with money and eventually inspired her to help women advocate for themselves financially. She explains why lasting confidence requires both knowledge and practical experience—and why trying to absorb too much financial information while experiencing divorce trauma can leave women feeling even more overwhelmed.

You’ll learn the first financial step to take when divorce becomes a possibility, how your current and projected budget affects property division and support, and how to identify gaps in financial information.

Rhonda also introduces her BRIDGE Method for organizing the financial divorce process and teaches her powerful ANOT negotiation formula. This four-part approach helps women communicate assertively, make clear requests, and negotiate without becoming aggressive or abandoning their own needs.

If fear, avoidance, or people-pleasing has kept you from participating fully in financial conversations, this episode will help you begin developing financial confidence during divorce. You do not need to understand everything today. You need the right information, the right support, and the courage to take your next small step.

Listen, save, and share this conversation with someone who wants to make informed financial decisions and build financial confidence during divorce.

Timestamps:

(00:00) Introduction to financial confidence during divorce

(01:45) Rhonda Nordick’s personal money story and Bold Beginnings

(05:10) How childhood experiences shape our beliefs about money

(08:20) Lesa’s experience with financial fear and unexpected retirement

(10:15) Why confidence requires both financial knowledge and experience

(13:05) Managing money decisions while experiencing divorce trauma

(15:45) The first financial step: Understanding your spending and budget

(18:20) How budgeting affects support, property division, and your home

(20:15) Rhonda’s BRIDGE Method for organizing divorce finances

(23:30) Identifying missing information, income gaps, taxes, and liquidity

(25:35) Why women may agree to unfair terms to avoid conflict

(27:00) The ANOT negotiation formula explained

(29:15) Example: Negotiating a home buyout or refinancing timeline

(32:00) How people pleasers can communicate assertively without aggression

(34:15) Using negotiation and communication skills beyond divorce

(36:05) Final encouragement for building financial confidence

Key Takeaways:

• Financial confidence grows when financial knowledge is combined with practical experience and small successes.
• Your first step should be understanding your current spending and estimating your post-divorce expenses.
• Accurate budgets and financial documents are essential when evaluating support, property division, housing, taxes, and liquidity.
• Rhonda’s ANOT formula—Acknowledge, Naturally, Obviously, and The Ask—helps you negotiate kindly and assertively.
• You don’t need to learn everything at once; focus on the information required for the next decision in front of you.

Guest Bio:

Rhonda Nordick is a Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, educator, speaker, and author featured in the book Bold Beginnings. Drawing on her personal money story and years of teaching experience, Rhonda helps women understand complex financial information, evaluate divorce settlement options, and advocate for themselves without apology. She is featured in this episode because of her practical, trauma-informed approach to building financial confidence and negotiating during divorce.

Resource Links:

• Rhonda Nordick’s website and services: https://womensfinancialwellnesscenter.com/
• Schedule a Divorce Clarity Call with Lesa Koski: [Insert booking link]
• Learn more about OsteoStrong Minnesota: https://osteostrongmn.com/affiliate-referral-koski/
• Learn more about Soberlink for divorce and family law: https://www.soberlink.com/divorce/family-law?utm_source=affiliatelink&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=lesa-koski-affiliatelink

Disclosure: Some resource links may be affiliate links. If you use one of these links, Lesa may receive compensation at no additional cost to you.

Tags/Keywords:

financial confidence during divorce, divorce finances for women, divorce financial planning, Certified Divorce Financial Analyst, CDFA, divorce budgeting, divorce negotiation tips, negotiating a divorce settlement, financial preparation for divorce, women and money, divorce financial checklist, property division, spousal maintenance, spousal support, keeping the house after divorce, divorce mediation, divorce settlement negotiation, assertive communication, people pleasing in divorce, financial empowerment for women, BRIDGE Method, ANOT negotiation formula, Rhonda Nordick, Lesa Koski, Doing Divorce Different podcast, divorce podcast for women, midlife divorce, divorce help for women

Welcome back, listeners.

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I'm so thankful that you're here, and

I'm really looking forward to today.

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I have the lovely Rhonda Nordick with me.

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And Rhonda, I think you are a

certified divorce financial planner.

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I don't know, I didn't look at my notes.

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Is that…

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Did I say that right?

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Speaker 2: Uh, certified

divorce financial analyst.

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Yeah.

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Speaker: Analyst.

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Okay.

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And I think the thing that I

love about you mor- most is

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that you want to empower women-

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Speaker 2: Yeah

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… Speaker: which we all do, and I always

want my listeners to feel less afraid.

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So today, we're first gonna

start with Rhonda's story.

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You know, what led her to do this

work that she's doing, and then

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we're gonna talk a little bit

about how to gain confidence in

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finances because I still need this.

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It's something I've really been

working on, so you can probably

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help me through it, too, but

getting that financial confidence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker: And then I thought, "Oh,

let's talk about negotiations."

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Mm.

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Because I think so many times…

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I mean, a lot of my clients

are mediation clients-

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Speaker 2: Mm-hmm

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… Speaker: and I'm helping them negotiate

and holding their hand through it,

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but I like that you have something to

teach people how to negotiate on their

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own, so we're gonna go there, too.

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So Rhonda- Okay … thank

you for being here.

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Welcome.

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And would you please just share

with the listeners your story?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely.

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So I think, you know, the best place to

start is really something that I shared

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in my book, called Bold Beginnings.

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Speaker: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: And, you know, recently,

and, and why this is top of mind

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is because I wrote this book over

two years ago, and I shared for the

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first time publicly my relationship

with money, and my relationship with

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money growing up with my family.

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And I was a little nervous to share

it with my mom, and so at the end of

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the day, um, I had an opportunity in

her final days to say, "Mom, remember

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that book I wrote two years ago?"

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I said, "I'd really like

you to, to read part of it."

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And she's always been, and always was, a,

a giant fan of my speaking and my writing,

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and, um, so she read the book, or at least

the section that I wanted her to read

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that shared a little bit about my story.

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Because here's the thing, right?

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When we're telling our truth,

when we're telling the truth-

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Ultimately what ends up happening

is we start, we start to question.

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Like, we don't want people

to misperceive our intention.

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We don't want it to be, at least I know

I don't want it to be disrespectful.

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Like, I really put a lot of effort

into how do I share my story so

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that people understand where I'm

coming from without throwing, you

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know, my family under the bus?

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And so my mom read that portion

of, of my book, and afterwards she said,

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you know, five simple things, and she

just said, "Rhonda, you told the truth."

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And I think, you know, for a lot of

the women that I'm working with, they

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have a hard time to tell the truth.

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Tell the truth to themselves, tell

the truth to their soon-to-be ex,

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or their, even sometimes their

attorneys or their mediators, right?

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I mean, they're, they're afraid.

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And I wasn't necessarily afraid,

I just really didn't feel

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like it was the right time.

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And then, you know, it,

it was the right time.

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And it was really, you know, and in

my mom's true fashion, she read it

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and said, "Rhonda, you told the truth.

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And oh, by the way, I want you to

write my obituary, and I want you

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to make it spicy," is what she said.

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Speaker 3: Aw.

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Did you

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Speaker 2: do it?

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I did.

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I did do it, and it was so fun.

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And, you know, she, she

was always my biggest fan.

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I started speaking, uh, publicly

when I was 11 years old.

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Speaker 3: Cool.

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Speaker 2: And I did a five-minute

speech for the Optimist Club, i-

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to a room of adults, you know?

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In junior high or whatever, and I

look around, and in that five-minute

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period of time, I had the adults

laughing and, you know, and then

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the next moment wiping their tears.

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And I stood there and I thought,

"Okay, I'm onto something here."

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Like, if I can use my voice to

impact and move people I think

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this could be really great.

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And so as much as we wanna think

that it's, you know, all about money

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and all of those pieces, right?

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I think at the end of the day,

the confidence component, A,

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we've gotta be able to take a

look at our history with money.

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And for me, it was okay, you know, I have

a dad who is, uh, addicted to gambling.

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I have a mom who was, um…

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And my parents were still married, right?

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Um, a mom who really wanted to make

sure that she could control the

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finances, so she was risk adverse.

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She wanted to save.

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She, um, she just controlled everything,

but it wasn't controlling in the sense

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of like when we think about people that

we're working with, like, oh, they're

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con- No, she was controlling out of

like desperate measures to preserve

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what they had worked for because

historically, over the years, right?

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And, and so her decisions

were based on, um, data.

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I mean, my dad would blow his

entire paycheck at the casino.

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So it wasn't like, "Oh, I

kinda sorta think he might…"

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No, he had done that, and so she as a, as

a result of that ended up being, you know,

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super conservative and anyways, you know,

growing it up in that kind of environment

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where you see during the '80s and, yeah,

probably the mainly the '80s, not so

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much the '90s, where my parents would,

you know, use their house as an ATM.

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My dad would rack up bad debt.

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He'd make bad decisions.

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He'd buy vehicles, be upside down on them.

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They'd roll them into to our house.

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They'd refinance, and then, you know,

they'd end up doing it again and,

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and again, and again until you get

to the point where in the '90s and

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2000s, I mean, you couldn't really

do that as, as easily anymore.

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Nobody's really doing that.

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I mean, you might take out a home

equity line But they're not doing these

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refinances like I saw my parents do.

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And basically, my dad was using,

you know, our house as an ATM.

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So like, that context I think is

important because for me, it's not

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necessarily just working with women

that are going through divorce.

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The reason I chose to work with

women that were going through divorce

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is 'cause I felt like it was where

I could have the greatest impact.

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Um, I was really getting frustrated with

women saying, "Well, we've got a guy,"

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or, "My husband says it's gonna be fine,"

or, "I haven't seen the statements, but

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this is what he's telling me and I'm

not really verifying the information."

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And, and then they get to a point

where they're, they realize that

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they wish they would have asked some

of those questions, and now they've

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got shame and guilt around it.

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It just becomes this whole

like rat's nest of like

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Speaker: Well, and I can kinda

share my little story too.

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Speaker 2: Oh, awesome.

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Speaker: Was w- my husband was

going through heart surgery,

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and like retired kind of like a

little bit woo surprise to me.

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And even though I took care of the

finances, I really didn't have access

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to any of that information about

his retirement, and that was scary.

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And Rhonda, because of my stories,

and just like you, I don't wanna like

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make my fair- parents feel bad, right?

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But the circumstances of how money

was thought of when I was growing

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up kinda led me to be someone

who stuck my head in the sand.

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I was a little bit afraid of it.

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I thought it was maybe, um, hard to get.

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You had to work hard for it.

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Yeah.

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You know, you make up

these stories in your head.

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And just recently, kind of out of

necessity and because like, you know,

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about self-coaching and stuff, I

realized I need to learn about this.

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And I became unafraid, and I'm, I'm

getting to be a woman who's kinda

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into this, and it feels so powerful.

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But let me ask you, I don't know,

what, what was your story growing up

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with th- how did you feel about money?

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Because it's, when you

growing up the way you did.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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I mean, I…

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So there's a couple things.

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One is I w- I did not feel risk-adverse.

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Like I, I didn't have a problem

taking risk, which I thought

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was kind of interesting.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Um, I really did

enjoy saving, but spending money

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especially big purchases,

like oh my gosh, right?

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S- a lot of anxiety, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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Um, and so I think, you know, at the end

of the day when I went through some of

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the family history, like one of the things

I'll encourage my clients to do is I'm

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like, "Okay, put together a family tree,

but not for the purposes of lineage, but

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more so like, okay, what are the attitudes

and beliefs around, you know, money from

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your parents and your grandparents?"

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And there were a lot of things

that kind of flew, kind of were

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funneled through that tree, right?

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Um, and I think at the end of the

day, it was, hey, listen, there's a

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couple pieces to financial confidence.

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One is the knowledge.

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So how do I acquire the knowledge?

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Mm.

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But the other part of it is how do I

create experiences that allow me to be

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able to put that stuff into practice?

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Because if we have the n- knowledge

without the experience, hey,

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it's theory in, that's all great.

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: If we have the experience

without the knowledge, we're

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like, "Hey, I'm just trying stuff.

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I hope something works."

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You know?

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I'm like, "That's not a good idea."

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So when we get those two things

working together, I've seen this

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happen over and over and over

again, and that is where women's

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confidence accelerates exponentially

in a shorter period of time because

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they now have the formula for that.

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And so I think as particularly in

the divorce space, what has been

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interesting is that now I feel like

there's so much knowledge or at least,

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you know, information available-

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm

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… Speaker 2: that now people need

knowledge, but they need wisdom as well.

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Because it's not just like, hey, I'm

just gonna ChatGPT my way through this,

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or I'm gonna get all this information.

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And then, okay, w- what information

do you actually need to be

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able to make this decision?

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And one of the things that we're

gonna be working on is, you know, I

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spend a lot of time helping my clients

decipher like information that they're

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reading and how to apply it and what

maybe they don't need and what's,

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you know, noise and all of that.

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But we're just tr- and I don't wanna

say we're just trying to get through

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the divorce process, but women that

are going through divorce in particular

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have … We only have so much bandwidth.

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When we're under stress-

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Speaker 3: Mm-hmm

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… Speaker 2: and there's trauma, we

gotta pick what we're working on.

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And if I can say, "Listen, here's the

one or two things I need you to be

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working on," my chances of them doing

it are better, and it helps increase

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their ability to be able to generate

confidence because they're having

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suc- little successes and wins- Mm-hmm

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along the way.

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What's, what I'm not able to do, because

I don't wanna overwhelm them, is go into a

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lot of detail around financial education.

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And, um, I used to do a lot more of that

when I was in the financial industry, but

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now I'm so specialized, I wanna be able

to provide high-level trauma-informed

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care for my clients, and I give them

little nuggets of, of education,

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but not at the level that I could if

they weren't going through divorce.

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So one of the things we're gonna be doing

is kind of building that in on the back

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end to say, "Listen, when you get through

this process, we're gonna then further,

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um, further set you up for success.

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By now that you have maybe the

bandwidth and you're through that

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process, and you felt well-supported

and you've rebuilt your trust and your

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confidence is better, now let's have a

conversation about actually dialing in.

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Okay, what are the different

types of insurance?

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What, how do you select an advisor?

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What are the different

types of investments?

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Not options, but, like, um, categories."

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: Right?

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And that's really what I think

we're gonna end up doing,

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because women are asking for it.

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Like-

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Speaker: Mm-hmm

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… Speaker 2: um, but in the midst of

the process, to go into that too

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de- too in detail is just too much.

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Speaker: I so hear you.

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And it, because it's like that

you're just trying to survive mode.

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And I know myself when I've gone

through really hard times that I can,

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you know, do all the self-coaching

I think I can, and then something

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really big happens, and I'm stuck.

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You know?

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I'm just kind of sitting there trying

to just move my body and survive.

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And so I love that you're talking

about these little steps, because

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you do need to take them when

you're going through a divorce

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because the finances are a big part.

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If you have kids, they're

probably a bigger part.

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But finances are important.

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Um, and so I just wanna know, when you're

working with women who are going through

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this, what's that first little step?

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Like, say someone's listening and

they're just found out they're

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gonna get divorced, and they have no

idea anything about their finances.

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How can you help them not be

afraid, and what's that first

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little step that they can take?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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I mean, apart from like, you

know, my podcast, which is

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of course, you know, awesome.

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Like, that's one thing.

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Yes.

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Speaker: And that'll

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Speaker 2: be in the show notes.

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But, um, I mean, from a practical

step, I think there's a, there's…

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I always say, like, the

simplest and easiest, and I say

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easiest in air quotes, okay?

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But, like, is to really just

start to look at their spending.

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Because at the end of the day,

there might be accounts or things

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that they don't have access to and

it's like, okay, what are the…

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what's the one thing that we

could start to kinda dial in?

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Well, we could start to get an

idea of what those expenses are.

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Speaker: Yes.

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Speaker 2: You know?

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A- and then we look at current

expenses, and then we look at,

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like, at projected expenses.

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And the tricky part about budgeting is

I always say, like, it is never really

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sexy or glamorous, and it feels like a

little bit of a moving target always.

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Mm-hmm.

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But it's so important to all of the

other pieces in the divorce process

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when it comes to negotiating around

support and, you know, looking at

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property division and okay, well,

what is it that you actually need?

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It, it really does a lot of

times come back to the budget.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And it's giving people,

women in particular, the tools

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and the confidence to be able to

advocate financially without apology.

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Speaker: Mm-hmm.

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Speaker 2: And so I would say

the budgeting piece is just

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really, really important.

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Speaker: I would, I totally agree,

and that's always where I have

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people start, and it's kind of one

of those things where you do have

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to have the courage to look at it.

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And once you do, then there's

like this underlying piece.

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Even though, like when I help my

clients even together, there's a little

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bit of an underlying piece when we

can take a look at, okay, here's my

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expenses, here's what I think they're

gonna be, y- this is what's coming in.

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You know?

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The, it starts to open the

doors, and, and it's courageous.

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You know?

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It's not easy to do.

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It's kinda like going

to get a workout or…

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You know what I mean, how there are

things you kinda don't wanna do, but

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once you do 'em, you feel so much better?

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Hold on to my hope and my belief

that you will feel better after you

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start digging into this a little bit.

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So, so once they get their idea of their

expenses and their budget, then do you

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have them look for where their assets are?

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What, what's next?

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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So the framework that I really use,

Lisa, is, um, my BRIDGE method, right?

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Which is, hey, breathe

and build your team.

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So who's on your team?

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What process are you using?

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Are you doing mediation?

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Are you doing litigation?

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What does that look like?

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But then we do a review.

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Review the financials, so we're gathering

our, gathering and organizing the

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documents and working on the budgeting.

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Then we're identifying the gaps.

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Where are the gaps, right?

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Is there gaps in information, gaps

in transparency, gaps in income?

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What are we trying to solve

for that's gonna help us get

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the clearest picture possible?

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So that we then can dial in the data.

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We can look at property division, we

can crunch those different scenarios.

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Keep the house, not keep the

house, you know, liquidity, tax

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concerns, all of those pieces.

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And I just try to make it super clear.

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Like, as, that this is the, the teaching

in higher education for almost 15 years.

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Like, I can take concepts and

be like, "Listen, this does not

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have to be that complicated."

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We still have to get it accurate,

we still have to, to operate from a

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position of excellence, but we can

give you three different scenarios

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and make it pretty clear if we've

done the work leading up to that.

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And then we're looking at property

division in more detail and support.

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Yeah.

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So support analysis on

need and ability to pay.

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Um, a lot of times with the income, I will

always say the output in the calculators

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is only as good as the numbers we're

putting in, so what are we using for the

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income and how did we get to that number?

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Um, so those are the kinds of pieces,

and then once we get that dialed in,

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then we can start to have, you know,

conversations around negotiating,

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and I know that's one of the things

we're gonna kinda be talking about.

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Mm-hmm.

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Um-

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Speaker: Wow, you did a great

job teeing that up- … because

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that's what I was getting to.

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So the thing is, is once they've kind of

gone through this work, they're probably

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feeling a little more confident, right?

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Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker: And so now let's talk about that

negotiation, the formula for success.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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So I think a lot of times people feel

like negotiation is, maybe creates some

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angst for them, maybe some anxiety.

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Maybe they feel like, "I

don't wanna make it worse.

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I don't wanna upset the apple cart.

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I don't wanna rock the boat,"

whatever we wanna say, right?

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And so they say, "Well, I'll just…"

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They end up agreeing to things that

maybe they either don't know that they

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shouldn't be agreeing to or whatever.

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So one of the things that I really have

leaned into over the last decade is,

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how do I become better at negotiating?

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And I did this in several, like,

business deals with my own business

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and some things in my own life, but I

wanna be able to teach women how to do

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this because I think it is so valuable.

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So the formula is an acronym.

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It's called ANOT, A-N-O-T.

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So what that means is acknowledge,

naturally is the N, obviously

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is the O, and T is the ask.

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What are we asking for?

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And I think the key thing here

is that we can use this for big

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things that we're negotiating.

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It could be little things

that we're negotiating.

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It could be with your divorce team,

it could be with your soon-to-be

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ex, it could be with your…

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You know, whomever.

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Like, this formula works so well.

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It even could be used if you were

invited to be on a board, right?

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Like, "Hey, we've got this opportunity.

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We'd like you to volunteer on the

board," blah, blah, blah, whatever.

381

Okay?

382

So what you do is you say acknowledge.

383

"Hey," we always start with

gratitude, "thank you so much for…"

384

something genuine, right?

385

Um, and let's do this in the

context of mediation, because I

386

think that would be most helpful.

387

So let's say that they're in the midst

of negotiating, and they're in mediation,

388

and one party wants the other one to,

you know, buy them out of the house.

389

Okay?

390

So, "Hey, thank you so much

for, you know, bringing this to

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the conversation," or whatever.

392

It doesn't have to be,

like, this big drawn out…

393

Like, just something of gratitude, right?

394

Mm-hmm.

395

And then we say, "Well, naturally I…"

396

So if I was doing it, I would say,

"Naturally, I want to make sure…"

397

And I…

398

Let's say I'm the one

who's keeping the house.

399

"Naturally, I wanna make sure that I am

in a position where I can keep the home."

400

And then what I would say is,

"Obviously you wanna make sure that

401

you're getting what you deserve

out of the equity of the home."

402

So what we're doing is essentially we're

queuing up naturally I, because we always

403

think if somebody starts with themselves,

we're like, "And what's in it for you?"

404

Where…

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So we just start with that.

406

Like- Mm-hmm … naturally I wanna

make sure that I can keep the house.

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Obviously you wanna make sure

that you're getting what…

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And they're gonna say, "Heck yeah."

409

Yeah.

410

So we're getting their buy-in early on.

411

And then we're saying, "What is the ask?"

412

Okay?

413

And the ask isn't always,

like, um, dollars and cents.

414

And so while it might be dollars and

cents, it might be the ask is, "I

415

would like to be able to have, uh, six

months or nine months or 12 months to

416

be able to evaluate the best option

for refinancing or a loan assumption.

417

Um, is that something we could explore?"

418

So I'm not saying, "Answer

me right now yes or no."

419

I'm planting again that seed to

say, "Can we have a conversation?"

420

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

421

Speaker 2: And most likely,

hopefully they would say, "Yeah,

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we can have a conversation."

423

Great.

424

Let me go back and get the information

that I need, crunch some numbers,

425

you know, and figure that out, right?

426

So it's, I like it because it's really

just foundational good communication-

427

Speaker: Mm-hmm

428

Speaker 2: that's taking the

pressure off of the person who is

429

the one who's feeling like they're

maybe leading the negotiations.

430

Speaker: Yeah.

431

Speaker 2: And also, for the people that

are on the flip side, they're feeling

432

valued because it's like, you know,

you're engaging them in the conversation.

433

Versus a lot of times what I see

is women in particular will say,

434

um, "Well, yeah, okay, fine.

435

You can keep that.

436

I'll keep this.

437

We'll call it…"

438

You know, or, or they just, like,

the other person keeps pushing and

439

pushing, and they keep saying yes, yes,

yes- And all of a sudden now they're

440

backed into a corner and they don't

know how to get out of it, right?

441

And so the more that we can tee up

those conversations around negotiating

442

in a framework that works, I mean,

we've used that, I've used that to

443

coach clients on asking for raises.

444

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

445

Speaker 2: I have used it for m- you

know, I mean, all kinds of things.

446

Mm-hmm.

447

It's so helpful.

448

And so-

449

Speaker: It is such a life lesson.

450

I even notice, Rhonda, like if I'm

sending an email to someone, um, if I

451

can start with gratitude or kindness.

452

Yeah.

453

I mean, this is kind of-

Yeah … a kind formula.

454

Yeah,

455

Speaker 2: yeah.

456

Speaker: And I like that you're

saying, "Okay, so this is what I want.

457

Obviously, you want…"

458

And that way if that's not what the

other person wants, they also have the

459

opportunity to clarify it, and then they

know that you're really hearing them.

460

Yeah.

461

'Cause sometimes I have, sometimes I have

people say, "Can you repeat what you…"

462

You know what I mean?

463

Just to make sure that they're

catching what the other person

464

really wants and really said.

465

So I love that, and it

just keeps it so simple.

466

It's just like a little life-

467

Speaker 2: Yeah

468

… Speaker: I mean, in life,

anything you're looking for.

469

Speaker 2: Yeah.

470

Speaker: You know?

471

Thinking about conversations with

my husband, you know, that could

472

be hard to say, to be- Yeah … say

something that you're grateful for.

473

Um, gosh, what a great…

474

And you, and it sounds like you kind

of were the scientist that tested

475

this out yourself and came up with it.

476

Oh,

477

Speaker 2: it's, you know, it's,

it has been a game changer.

478

And to your point, like, that way

then when you're sitting at, you

479

know, your computer and you need

to fire off an email- It forces

480

us to pause for just a minute.

481

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

482

Speaker 2: Because if we're negotiating,

there's probably some emotion involved.

483

Mm-hmm.

484

You know what I mean?

485

Like, uh, we're getting fired up about it.

486

Speaker: Right.

487

Speaker 2: Um, we're like, "Okay,

what can I be grateful for?"

488

And, and it doesn't…

489

And we're not faking it, you know?

490

We're just queuing up that- Right … I

gotta find something to be grateful for in

491

this situation that might not be so good.

492

Speaker: Well, and I think, uh, uh, too,

as I'm thinking through this, I think what

493

you're talking about could help women.

494

I know a lot of women, too, who have maybe

just agreed to something because they

495

just didn't wanna deal with it anymore,

or they wanted to be done with it.

496

Or sometimes if they're feeling, um,

you know, like I'm a people pleaser.

497

I could be easily swayed.

498

But I think if you give them

this powerful tool where they

499

can come in nice and be kind.

500

Yeah.

501

I think it almost makes it more

comfortable for somebody- Yeah … who

502

maybe would be a little less

inclined to negotiate strongly.

503

Yeah.

504

What do you think about that?

505

I just was thinking about

that as you were talking.

506

Speaker 2: I love that because, you

know, here's what's interesting, right?

507

Is once we start to develop these

tools, it, it feels more aligned.

508

Like I, I'm very confident in my

communication, and also, to your

509

point, I am also a people pleaser,

like at my core default, right?

510

And so, like, that's what we're

battling when we do this, and we

511

don't wanna show up aggressive.

512

We don't want people to think that we

don't have the right intentions, you

513

know, even though we can't control that.

514

We wanna show up in the best way that

we can to engage in those conversations.

515

And, um, I think the other thing

that I just wanna mention is, you

516

know, a lot of times when people…

517

This is c- uh, uh, essentially

in the category of assertive

518

communication, right?

519

And I remember taking a class in college,

communications course, and they were

520

talking about assertive communication,

and they were giving us some t- And

521

I was like, "Oh, my gosh," like, "I

think I'm gonna lose my cookies."

522

Like, I cannot do this, right?

523

Like, I told everybody

what my history was.

524

I am…

525

It was avoidance at all costs because my,

you know, it was just ch- challenging.

526

And so, now I put myself in the spot

where I'm like, "Okay, we gotta figure

527

this out because if I don't, I'm

going to continue to be miserable,

528

and this just is not working."

529

And so I had to find a way that I felt

like I could show up in a kind way.

530

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

531

Speaker 2: And still have some power.

532

Speaker: Mm-hmm.

533

Speaker 2: And, um, and I've literally

been using this for 10 years.

534

I swear by it because

it's been so helpful.

535

I mean, everybody that has gone through

those, these types of challenging

536

things, the good news is we can

learn how to communicate assertively.

537

Speaker 3: Mm-hmm.

538

Speaker 2: I, when I was learning

some of these skills in my early

539

20s, I went through, I went through a

certification, and in this room were

540

22 women from across the country.

541

And they did a little,

you know, informal survey.

542

But the bottom line is everybody in

there except one person had as- both

543

parents were assertive, and this,

this particular person was assertive.

544

The rest of us were either

passive or aggressive, you know?

545

But the whole point of this certification

program was to say, "Listen, if I

546

can give you the tools, again, the

knowledge and the experience working

547

together, now we can actually help you

step into communicating assertively."

548

And it was one of the most

powerful things I've ever done.

549

And so I'm so grateful that I have the

opportunity to share with women and help

550

women do this during a time that is so

challenging, because it is something

551

that they're gonna be able to take with

them well after the divorce is over.

552

Speaker: R- so Rhonda, I just

love that we're kinda ending with

553

this because it, it's, it's more

than a tool for divorce, right?

554

And it feels so true to who I am.

555

So it feels like if you are a

people pleaser, it gives you

556

a way to be assertive kindly.

557

Mm-hmm.

558

If you're an assertive, aggressive

communicator, it gives you a little

559

bit of, okay, here's a little

teaching moment on don't forget

560

to start with that gratitude.

561

So it, it work- c- it works

for, for all types- Yeah

562

I feel.

563

Yeah.

564

And so I feel like that was…

565

That is so helpful, Rhonda.

566

That's…

567

I love this 'cause I learned

something new in all of these, and

568

I know it's gonna help my listeners.

569

And I just want you to know, I feel

so blessed to have you here today.

570

I'm so thankful.

571

I had you on a long time ago when I

first started this, so, so thankful

572

to have you back, and I just wanna

thank you for the work that you're

573

doing, and thanks for being here.

574

Speaker 2: Yeah.

575

Thank you so much for the opportunity

to spend a few minutes with you today.

576

Speaker: Yeah.

577

You take good care.

578

Speaker 2: Thank you.