What are the leadership traits of women who lead movements?

In this weeks episode we sit down with two incredible women who lead important movements.

Latanya Mapp Frett, President and CEO of the Global Fund for Women and Helena Ann Kennedy, Baroness Kennedy of The Shaws, a Scottish barrister, broadcaster, and Labour member of the House of Lords, discuss what they believe to be the key leadership tips and traits that we need to succeed in both leading a movement and effectively creating change.

Julia Middleton 0:01

Latanya 3:23

It usually is going to be some event, something that you can really put your finger on. And the leaders of these movements are usually going to talk about that event as the reason that they got into that movement. It's a lot of people who are just tired of the status quo, the circumstance, but it usually is this thing that pivots people into a circumstance where they need to rise where they need to organise, they need to mobilise because to not do so would not be who they are. And I you know, I hope.

Julia Middleton 4:04

What does that mean? What does that mean?

Latanya 4:06

So if I am, you know, a person who have experienced a certain injustice, and that injustice just does not sit well with me. And that's why I said it's usually some incident, that means that it's either now or never, I've got to stand up. I've been watching this, I've been living this, but I can't do it anymore. And usually leaders will talk about that point. When they get to that point, they may not even realise when it happened. Some will, you know, like we've had these circumstances, particularly in the US have these incredible, awful situations with police violence, and or circumstances where women find themselves in particular, where they just cannot sit down any longer. They can't not say anything. And so this is where the leadership begins. When when you first emerge when their movements are emerging, the pace is always fast. The pace is urgent, I think is probably a better word than fast. Everything is urgent. There's usually some opportunity to change things, some opportunity to get in front of, you know whether if it's you're seeking legislation, are you seeking social change? Social, you know, thinking, you know, you want to change people's minds. So there may be these media opportunities that have now opened up. I know when we talked to Tirana Burks over at Me Too, she talks about those moments. And we all know, you know, when sometimes people thought about it as co- opting, you know, the message of Me Too, but it was actually the moment right, it was the urgent moment that allowed it to spark during that time, she had been working on this for way before any of these Hollywood greats had come in and started to get involved. But it was that moment where it became urgent to take advantage of it urgent to, to start using that message. And the leader that she is, knew it, and rode that wave, even when people didn't know her name, right? But that was the leadership, you know, being able to capitalise on that moment and leverage it.

Julia Middleton 6:14

How do women protect themselves from believing their own bullshit?

Latanya 6:21

You got to get people around you who call you. And I again, you and I have both seen, you know, both sides of that you can surround yourself by a bunch of yes, people, you know, who are just so enamoured with who you are, and never tell you the truth about where things are headed, or what they're hearing, you know, through other movement members. Or you can surround yourself with people who will do a little bit of both, right? So you need people who are definitely sort of going to tell you what's right. But you also need to have those people around you who are going to absolutely tell you what's wrong. I think sometimes, particularly with larger organisations that some of the feminists are running, it gets hard because you're not making every hire right. And so, but you got to at least have around you, in your immediate circle, people who will call you on your bullshit, because otherwise all of us, you know, or or, you know, there's a possibility, again, heads that are so big that we don't know what else to do. But what we think we should do.

Julia Middleton 7:25

You also mentioned that the the great movement leaders have a sort of intuitive instinct for who to bring into the tent.

Latanya 7:34

Yes, they have these instincts around who are the right people to have, which organisations are doing the good things, meeting people and saying, How can we engage? How can we partner, I think we align I think our partnership, could be more than just a conversation that we can do things together. And I've seen so much of this over the years, Julia, that I'm convinced that it must be just some sort of DNA gene or something, because you see people who have it, and then you see people who absolutely don't, and it's okay. But normally these people, they rise to where they are either within the movement or within their organisations, because they have this instinct around who to bring into the circle.

Julia Middleton 8:19

They're all sort of frightened of fighting, are they?

Latanya 8:22

Hmm, none of these are that we're talking about, honestly. And I, you know, I can't even think of a social movement right now, especially a feminist movement, where if you're scared, you're not in it. One of the things that I've been really, in this kind of like, towards the end of the book, but like, why do feminist movements need you? It's because they will really put themselves in positions that are kind of dangerous, in order to meet the mission in order to achieve the drive right of the movement, and, and we need people of course, to protect them to make sure they're protected, not just their, like words, you know, in their intent of what they're trying to do, but literally save their lives.

Julia Middleton 9:07

Did you say you thought they were fearless?

Latanya 9:10

I don't believe that they're fearless. I was, you know, I don't know if you remember Reham Yaqoob in Iraq when she was murdered. I was reading some of her statements in her letters before the assassination. And the same with Mara Salah and in, in Brazil. I you know, I don't think they were fearless. I think that's not the word. They were afraid and they kind of knew that they were being followed. They knew that they were I mean, of course, they were being like, openly threatened. But that fear didn't and immobilise them. They kept going, they kept it didn't stop them. So you know, to be fearless is one thing, but to be with fear, and to continue is what we're talking about when we talk about these feminist leaders.

Julia Middleton 9:57

I'm assuming you also discovered that the great leaders of movement are good with the media and with social media.

You know, I, what I think I've learned writing this book is that there's a variety of of ways, I think you'll find that good leaders of social movements want to have that expertise, they want to be able to have people who can utilise those tools to be able to organise, I don't necessarily feel that they need to be the, you know, face. And in fact, a lot of these everyday feminists do and when you read the book, you'll see that they, you know, may not be hugely popular at all, nor do they want to be. I found that lots of them are not interested in being in the limelight. But what they like about social media is that you can reach a whole lot of people with one click. And so because they have this instinct, they want to be able to do this. And so they, they will tend to bring people into the fold. And around them who's really good at that.

Would you describe leaders of movements as ruthless?

I don't know about using that word, mostly because it there's a connotation of sort of negative, you know, a negative connotation that you would cut anybody's throat, you know, I do, though, and personally admire in a lot of movement leaders is that they will cut the throat of their opposition, not, you know, I'm talking to figuratively, anyway. I do like that as a characteristic and personality trait of movement leaders who won't, won't back down from opposition who speak to power in ways that it's clear, you know, and will not, you know, mince words with them. So I like that. But ruthless kind of indicates that they'd also do the same to their own. Many of the feminist leaders that I know that they can do that they can push back on their opposition, and at the same time, love and hold, and be a, be the care giver of their movement at the same time, if that makes sense.

But I wouldn't like to get in thier way.

No, I mean, think about some of the really bad asses that you know, and I think the ones that have been incredibly successful as leaders hold that trait, dear, but at the same time, they're there for you, every time you call them, you know, they're absolutely going to show up, you know, your birthday, your wedding, your your babies, you know, they're always sort of as excited about that as they are about any of the movement work. So that's for me, you know, that's the distinction and juxtaposition, right? Is that they're hard asses when they're talking to opposition, but they turn loving and soft when they're talking to their movement members.

What's the relationship between a movement leader and anger?

There's probably a certain level of anger that gets you there, let's, you know, let's be honest, I'm a certain amount of just fuck you-ism, right? I'm gonna, you know, know, that, that, that kind of energy, I see a lot, you know, I'm not going to do this anymore. I'm not going to take this anymore. I'm not listening to you anymore or God forbid, if you cross them, you know, and say you're gonna do something or say you're on their side, I see them get very angry of people who, like just try to use them. Co-op their messages. And I think for a lot of especially black women, leaders in movements, you know, I think they go through so much. And I don't mean just, you know, by folks who are the perpetuators of whatever kind of issue that they're fighting against, but also those that say that they're their partners, and don't deliver on it. And so, um, so I think anger is, is justified and necessary in some of this work.

So don't hide anger.

Why, you know, they will call you a bitch anywyas.

Lots of leaders would say, if you express your anger, then you've lost it.

Hmm. I don't know. I feel like I feel like it's an emotion that can drive a lot of change a lot of energy. And sometimes I think if you're not angry, then you probably in the wrong game, for when we're talking about transformational social change. If it doesn't make you angry, it probably won't make you do anything.

What's the biggest mistake or blindness that you see in women who run movements?

I have to go back to this issue around caring for themselves, the biggest mistake I see is that people who just keep going, keep going in, probably not just for themselves, but they're probably driving or group of other people until they can't function anymore. I've seen it time and time again, where, you know, not only do you as a feminist leader, feel like you have to sacrifice yourself, but you also feel that everybody around you has to sacrifice themselves in order to get shit done. And it's, you know, it's not necessary, but I know that for many, you know, it's like, so they feel like so much is on their shoulders, that success means that they have to continue working like a dog, you know, they have to continue being everywhere at once they have to continue showing up in ways that actually might affect their own health, affect their own sanity. That's the thing that I see. And you know, and that's where decline starts, not just for the individual, but it affects the movement. And then that brings me to probably related, but secondary is the succession planning, you know, thinking about this with a time horizon and saying I can do this, I mean, all of us should, right, you know, I could do this job for about five years. That's what I've got in me, you know, a little more, a little less, but who am I going to bring along who is going to be beside me, that then can step into this role and keep keep it moving? You know, keep keep getting it done, so that I can back out? I seen some good stuff. But a lot of bad stuff. And that because I think it's hard for us to think about our exit.

If I'm honest, there was one movement, that I was absolutely at the heart of beginning. And we failed totally. The forces that be made sure we did not succeed. And actually, it was choosing the moment to recognise that and say, it's not going to work this time.

Yeah, yeah. How do you make sure that we're not in the process of just sort of the fight after the fight after the fight, and never one recognising success, or to understanding that it's not always the same groups, it's not always the same people that have to be in the fight being incredibly strategic. The best leaders also know when it's time to call it shop. And that could be the movement itself, like we, you know, like we were talking about, like the movement hasn't, has or has not gotten the success that they want it. Or it could mean, the leader themselves could be that this is the moment when I stepped out so that new leadership can come in to do a new thing. So if the law was passed, as I was talking about, then maybe the the movement for changing minds is somebody else. That's another leader, you know, and I think leaders intuitively, and, you know, with self reflection, also with considering the kind of care they need to take for themselves and their families make some of those determinations. And and we've seen that happen.

Yes, but not often. I mean, I don't know if it's you, but I, I think I see lots of people who just keep on and on and on and won't hand over.

And I think that's a shame because usually what happens is, you know, I mean, nobody can go on forever. It's, there's burnout, I think we've seen in, in Latin America, and I talk a little bit about this in the book where there's been, like, sort of the feminist movement itself, you know, where people grew old, and the movement and a lot of people felt shut out, like younger people who want it to lead, and it was time for them to lead and they had new issues they wanted to address felt like that they weren't able to sit at the table. You see what some of the greater leaders is these shifts, you know, so they may stay in the movement for the long game, but the leadership, the face, the the agenda starts to shift to somebody else. And so I think having that kind of, you know, astuteness is going to be important if a social movement is to really, really drive change.

Thank you so so much, Latanya for everything that you said the one that that that absolutely I think is caught in my head. Perhaps the strongest is is is our slight disagreement over the word ruthless. I think you may not want to use the ruthless, but I think ruthless the word, I think you're right that women who lead movements are ruthless with the opposition. But what's so intriguing, as you say, is that they are also so deeply kind and loving, to the people in the movement. And it's, it's that combination that's fascinating. So let's, um, let's go on to Helena, the woman I've always admired so much. Of course, when you, when you have a heroine, you tend to sort of sit at their feet. So I did. And I promise you, I did end up pinning down the leadership learning. But first, I just wanted to tell you the story, that it's just a beautiful story, I think of one of the latest movements that she has started.

Let me just tell you about my judges. In 2008, the International Bar Association had been very active in creating a new bar association. They had never been one in Afghanistan. And, and I remember advocating very strongly that if they were reforming the law, and trying to make the law at the heart of this country, as it was developing a new was to have women part of that lawmaking, because women need protecting too. And part of that social contract of societies is that you provide safety, but women have to be also made safe in their homes or in the public arena. We encourage the law schools to open up and bring women in and to have the judiciary include women to introduce law that was about eliminating violence against women and to create women's courts, where women could have confidence about coming with their grievances. And and these fabulous women were in those courts. In February of 2021, two Supreme Court women judges were assassinated by the Taliban. I mean, he might have been Al Qaeda, who knows but but somebody opens the door of the car that they're in and shoots both of them, one through the head and one through the heart. And then barely six months later, the announcement is that we're going to be the West is going to be leaving United States, Britain, other forces are going to be leaving by the end of August, we started receiving messages from the judges saying, help us please, I'm hiding in my basement that let these people out of prison that we sent to jail. And and it was heart wrenching. And so I then started finding out about how to how we could get them out. I found out that American evangelical groups were getting Christians out. And so we contacted them to see if we could put some of our judges in the back of their planes. And they said, look, we haven't got room at the back of our planes. But this is the charter company we're using and give us the details and so on. And so we then discussed the possibility of chartering a plane. I mean, let me tell you, I was not imagining at that point, I was going to be my chartering planes, I had never thought I would be chartering planes. But we find out the chartering a plane costs $750,000. Because there's no insurance and so on, and the Taliban could impound a plane. And the first thing was that we got into a bit of money in order to get them into safe houses. We've got some money to pay for some a bit of security to give them the protection at that point. And then the question was, could we afford a charge plane? And so we started, have to see that honestly, a large part of this was about the network of women that I know, because of the work I've done over my life. And so sometimes you have to take a risk, you have to take a risk and believe that you can do it. And I can't pretend that there were times where I was breathless thinking, Oh, my God, this could go horribly wrong. And how am I going to be able to, you know, explain this to the world if you know, the Taliban prevent this plane going and we've spent all this money getting a plane into Maz Al Sharif, a northern airport to take them out. It could have gone wrong at many different stages. And some things did go wrong. Iran said that they wouldn't let us fly over their airspace. We had difficulties at first getting people out who didn't have passports or their children didn't have passport with an identity document enough. Could we persuade the person who ran the airport at Maz Al Sharif? That to let them come with identity papers rather than a passport, ended up getting three flights out? You know, it was 103 women, judges prosecutors with a couple of MPs on it. I got the two sons of the one of the Supreme Court judges who was assassinated, we got out 500 people and it was a sort of Schindler's List thing. But don't don't for a minute thing that I started off thinking, you know, I'm gonna get out. I didn't for a minute I was going to get out one or two women judges, and then it grew like topsy and my ambition for it grew as well. And But part of it is collaboration with others working along with others, and therefore met multiplying the possibilities of what you can do.

So then they all got to Greece, then what happened?

Oh, God. I mean, you're talking about naivety? I mean, I mean, everyone thinks that I'm this very worldly person, you know. And of course, I mean, to a large extent, I think I am. Although things still shocked me, that I assumed that once these women were out, and we then ask the world to open its arms and take them in with their husbands and children, that the world would do it. And it wasn't true. They weren't. They weren't welcome everywhere. It was really hard work to get countries to take those women judges in. I mean, I'm afraid of my cohort, only six of the women judges and prosecutors, and were given places in the United Kingdom, I have to say that Canada was the real, you know, offer of sanctuary. And and they've taken in most of those women and their families. But it was a shock to me, that there was such a lack of welcome.

Helena, while you've been talking, I've been writing down some of the things that I take from your that story about leadership. Can I play some of them back to you? So one of them is the importance of naivety, the importance of being naive.

Yes, I mean, maybe naive is to be jority of a word in the way that we've come to use it. I think that having a sort of innocent belief that somehow you will make it work, that it things will come good. I mean, it is about hope, in a way, it's about keeping a level of a high level of hope. I mean, there was a moment, I get a phone call to say that the cheap hotels, the out of season hotels that we had arranged for this second, lot of evacuations had all been cancelled. And all these people, the flights were the following morning. And these people were all already up at staying in hiding places close to the airport from which they will be leaving, I have to tell you that I mean, tears began to roll down my face. That Airbnb had sort of said that they would help refugees, in a different context. Anyway. And so I said to one of my lawyers, see if you can get a number for somebody at the very top of Airbnb. And it was a ridiculous thing, because I had so many people and how were Airbnb was not going to be exactly what comes to this vast number of Afghan refugees. But I just thought I would ask them, and I got through to a very senior executive. And I told you the story. And, and I have to tell you all weekend, during the middle of the night, because I had completely forgotten that time difference, and ended up saying we can't find Airbnb places at this short notice. But we will. We'll find hotels, and we'll pay for a fortnight of them staying in hotels. So Airbnb came up with that.

That's the second one I wrote down, is the ability of a leader to tell the story, even in the middle of the night on the phone to a stranger. That's absolutely crucial, isn't it the ability to tell the story.

You really have to I mean, I've always I've always felt that advocacy is part of being a leader. And and you have to be able to, you have to, as you say, be able to tell the story. You have to be able to make a compelling case, for the needs of help, because people are being asked for help all the time. You have to sort of remind people what's involved in being a judge. It's not just about being it's not, you know, people imagine judges are sitting in great comfort somewhere, that dealing with this stuff. And then these women have threats, as sitting as judges were receiving threats all the time. Even when we thought it was it was all working. They were under threat, and had to be protected. Because of the work that we're doing. They were living with threat and fear.

And then the next thing I wrote down while you were talking is that, I remember a woman once talking to me about putting pennies in heaven, that that you have to form friendships with masses, masses of people over the years and you put pennies in heaven, and then when the moment comes and you need need, the pennies back. There are lots of people. So, you know that horrible expression for leaders, which is networking. It's much more than networking isn't it? You have to build deep trusting friendships so that when you shout help people come.

It is important that thing that pennies and heaven thing about and doing good things for other people. So that, you know, you've made yourself available. I've never done this thing when people have phoned me up and say, can you give me legal advice? Or can you help on something? Of course I do. I always do that. And I think that those things do help. In the end, when you need real help yourself first project.

Then you have to show confidence, even when you don't feel any confidence at all inside yourself. And you have to, you have to take the risk and believe that you can do it and show to everybody else that you believe, even if you're terrified inside.

Of course, I mean, people aren't, you know, there is an issue, which is around self belief. I think I probably did get that from my mother, I always remember an American friend of mine, meeting my mother or working class woman from Glasgow, and saying, Your mother is amazing, you know, because she, she does stand tall, although her work routine amongst any people. And because she knew who she was, and didn't feel okay about it. And my mother's thing to us as children was always, never think you're better than other people. But nobody's better than you. And I do think that being able to look someone in the eye and not to be afraid or intimidated by them. And that and I, I do think that I learned that from her. And, and so if you're asking people for help, for others, it is the easiest thing in the world in a way.

The other one is that is your point, which I think is really interesting, too, is that you never imagined when you started off, you never imagined the scale of it.

You know, don't be put off because you think, you know, I mean? Because don't imagine that there were that when you know, when when I was a young lawyer was scaling up and going up to the Court of Appeal to do cases that I didn't go and think, Oh, God, I'm gonna be appearing in front of three great judges, and they're all going to be quizzing me about my argument and the legal basis on which I'm rounding my appeal. So, you know, you really got to face the challenges that are frightening to you. That doesn't mean to take risks. But it doesn't mean reckless risks. I mean, I'm not reckless. I make calculations in all of this. But I do think that you have to do the thing that sometimes seems quite frightening.

Promises only two more, one of them is the one that I find that I'm hopeless at, which is how do you cope with the disappointment? When people and systems let you down?

Well, of course, you get angry. And I did feel anger, I did feel let down that somehow my own government drew up to head sort of rules and drew up the the bridge, which would have provided opportunities for people here. I used to shop when I was angry. I still occasionally do. But I learned to be much more sort of, if you like directional about how I I place my anger and my disappointment and to express it in a way that I think is hard for people to hear. But I think that they have to hear it.

How much do you think and actually, how much do you recognise this truth in yourself? That one of the great pillars of leadership is energy and enthusiasm.

I think you have to have it. I think that people who seem to be sort of flat in their, in their engagement, often have difficulty connecting with the wider public. And I think I think passion is a useful thing. And it has to be harnessed obviously in a positive way. I also think that I feel it really strongly at the moment that I feel that integrity is vitally important and truthfulness. People know I know this from juries, you know, I've spent my life in courtrooms and I am you know, you bring a witness to the court and you and and you stand up to cross examine them and and before I do, I watch them very carefully. And it's almost a sort of you almost smell it in the courtroom when someone's telling the truth. And you know, when people dissemble and you know when people reach easily for a lie, and for an easy answer and I I think in public life at the moment, we've got too much of that reaching easily for an excuse or a denial. And I think people know. And I think that integrity in public life and integrity is vitally important. And I think leaders, if we want to be leaders, we have to really be be honest and honest about our own failures and, and learn from, from the fact that we sometimes get things wrong. And we do, and also being honest about the times when we have felt fear, and I and being worried that you've made the wrong call. So I think that we have to be much more honest. And I think people prefer that to the self confident, you know, denial of any frailty. And I think women are often much better at admitting that they, they've got things wrong, but they've got still got a vision. You know, I think it's really important. But I think truth and integrity are vital in leadership.

Thank you. Thank you both Latanya and Helena. That was absolutely delicious. I suppose too ruthless, and loving. And the combination of the two, after Helena, we've added that. That extraordinary belief that somehow you're make it work, despite all the evidence to the contrary, Leaders just exude hope. It's been a glorious episode. And actually, I think next week's episode, which is the 30th episode should continue this story about movements. Helena, and Latanya have given us quite high level, what I want to do next week is go a little bit deeper down into two things that they've mentioned. The first one is, is this, this ability for leaders of movements to tell a story. Let's find out more about that. So I went to talk to Melissa, and she'll be on next week's episode. And then the second one that continues always to intrigue me is that movements are so much about timing. So I'm going to talk to Uma about a bit more detail on how to judge the moment, the judge the moment to go faster and judge the moment to maybe even slow down, to judge when when you're driving or when perhaps you're being driven by others. How do you how do you judge the pace? So let's go deep on both of those. Because women who run movements are fascinating leaders.

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