We sit down with Helen from Renew to unpack why the idea of a sustainable home still gets treated like a luxury, when it should really be the baseline. We talk about the shift happening across the Australian building industry, where sustainable housing, energy efficient homes, and high-performance building are becoming more mainstream. Better design decisions, not just bigger budgets, can lead to healthier, more comfortable, and more resilient homes.

We get into the practical side of sustainable design and what actually makes a difference in real homes. Things like orientation, shading, airtightness, draught-proofing, solar power, and all-electric homes all play a role in improving comfort and reducing running costs. For anyone interested in Passive House principles, building performance, home energy efficiency, and sustainable construction in Australia, this is full of useful insight without the usual fluff.

We also talk about the people often left out of the sustainability conversation, especially renters. From low-cost upgrades like sealing gaps and using portable induction cooktops, to bigger policy changes around rental energy efficiency standards, this episode looks at how sustainable living can become more accessible. We also explore community-led housing, shared spaces, and projects like The Paddock in Castlemaine, which show that good sustainable development is not just about the house itself, but about how people live together.

If you care about sustainable homes, Passive House construction, electrification, healthy homes, low energy building, and the future of sustainable housing in Australia, this is a conversation worth listening to. We also touch on Sustainable House Day and why seeing real projects in person can help make eco homes, green building, and climate-conscious design feel far more practical and achievable. Because the goal is not to make sustainable homes feel special. It is to make them feel normal.

👇 CHAPTER MARKERS 👇

00:00 Introduction

01:08 Meet Helen From Renew

02:49 Renew Origins And Mission

04:20 Getting Off Gas Debate

06:06 What Makes A Sustainable Home

08:22 Rethinking Sustainability Language

14:05 How Community Drives Policy

18:39 Sustainable House Day Explained

21:06 Retrofits And Electrification Journey

24:32 Why Sustainability Should Be Standard

27:14 Beyond Passive House

28:56 Narrow Block Case Study

31:36 Simple Sustainable Upgrades

32:07 Sustainable House Day Impact

41:50 Renters Practical Fixes

44:10 Rental Standards Coming

44:51 Ventilation Mould Liability

50:11 Landlords Incentives Debate

51:49 Energy Ratings Disclosure

54:05 Real Estate Greenwashing

54:31 Fixing Building Inspections

57:15 Sustainable House Day Online

01:01:16 Community-Centered Developments

01:05:36 Why Councils Don’t Join

01:22:16 Tours Spark Change

01:22:54 EV Chats and Wrap-Up

LINKS:

Connect with Renew:

https://renew.org.au/

Sustainable House Day:

https://sustainablehouseday.com/

Our Sponsors:

Pro Clima - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/proclima

MEGT - https://mindful-builder.captivate.fm/megt

Connect with us on Instagram: @themindfulbuilderpod

Connect with Hamish:

Instagram: @sanctumhomes

Website: www.yoursanctum.com.au/

Connect with Matt:

Instagram: @carlandconstructions

Website: www.carlandconstructions.com/

Hey team, things are going to look a little different coming

up, but this is a good thing.

Sometimes change is hard and it's something that we have been working on

in the background for a little while now.

Honestly, change is good.

It's a whole reason Hamish and I started the podcast and we're filled.

The building industry needs it.

Oh, and by the way, I'm Matt Amy's co-host who loves to poke the bear.

But what's cool is we are now recording from the Pro Climber Australia Studios,

who are our major sponsor of our podcast.

It's like the perfect combination.

We're kind of like Batman and Robin fighting the crime against an

outdated, crappy building industry with a perfect combination of pushing

boundaries, sharing our knowledge, and starting rural conversation about

how we can improve the industry.

Of course, I'm Batman and really Hamish is a little bit more like Alfred.

Anyway, enjoy today's episode, which is coming directly from the

pro climber built to last studio.

We are coming from our mobile pro climber built to last studio today, so pro

climber being one of our major sponsors.

Uh, thank you Proclama team.

Um, today we are joined by Helen from Renew, CEO of renew.

Um, Helen, before I ask my first question, who are you?

So, I am somebody who about 25 years ago looked up from my day job,

which was, I was actually a speech pathologist, would you believe?

Worked with kids for 10 years and looked up for my day job and

suddenly went, I think I'm a bit worried about climate change.

What can I do?

Where can I volunteer?

How do I go and get involved?

And I inadvertently enrolled myself in a environmental law masters and then

Oh wow.

Rocked into a job at Greenpeace in Canberra.

Um, felt very lucky to get that role.

And it was a political advocacy team in Canberra.

And so started there as a research admin person and I was still

doing, uh, speech pathology.

For half the week and a bit of Greenpeace for the other half of the week for you.

But didn't in Canberra.

Lived in Canberra.

Sorry?

You lived in Canberra?

Yeah, I did.

I mean, I didn't intend to stay in Canberra as long as I did.

I was there for 25 years in total.

What's wrong in

Canberra?

Uh, nothing's just not where I was from.

I'm, I'm a Melbourne girl and I went to Canberra 'cause my parents

were there and I love living there.

It was great.

Um, and then I just, and then I just got this dream job and I,

I stayed because it was so good.

So you

been at Renew for a long time?

No, I've been at Renew for only two years.

Huh.

Um, yeah, so I worked for Greenpeace for eight years and then I worked

in the a CT Parliament for eight years and then I headed up, um, the

ACT's, uh, conservation Peak Body for about four years during COVID.

So that felt like eight years.

Yeah.

Um, and then we relocated back to Melbourne a couple years ago, about

three years ago, um, to be with family.

So, yeah.

And came back to Melbourne and then got this job a couple of years ago

because Renew is an organization that I've known about for a very long time.

'cause we're a 45-year-old organization this year.

Uh, we used to be called the Alternative Technology Association,

and it was started in the 1980s by, you know, a group of passionate, uh,

people who, you know, loved solar panels and renewable energy, but.

Nobody really knew what that was.

Yeah.

Let alone believed that it would actually work to create electricity.

Um, and these guys used to, you know, put solar panels on the back of trailers and

drive them around and show them to people.

Um, and when I applied for the job, it was really interesting 'cause my, my brother

is a, uh, wind engineer and he said to me, oh yeah, I used to be, I used to be

a member of the a TA and I was on the board of the a TA back in the eighties and

it was this beautiful symmetry as well.

But, you know, today renews about living sustainably, so it's about

solar panels and it's about sustainable homes and design and building

and electrification and batteries and, you know, so it's become.

Something that was kind of, you know, uh, a bit niche has become something

that's becoming much more mainstream.

I was just gonna say, like, you just talking fication all, like,

all, everything that you have just talked about now is just normal.

Maybe I live in a bubble, but it's stuck.

I feel like we don't even need the electrification conversation.

I know we do, but like, it's like we do got how many

millions of homes need to get

off?

Well, I know, but like, there's so much information

and data to show that it works.

Oh, yeah.

Like that's why, that's why, I mean, do we even need to have the conversation?

Like it it's

a,

it's a really good question.

'cause you know, in the a CT we persuaded the government to get off gas.

Yeah.

Um, when I was up there and they made a commitment to get off gas by 2045 and

they're the second highest user of gas per capita in the residential sector.

But Canberra's

quite progressive though.

Yep.

Yes.

And then Victoria followed and they're the highest per capita user of gas.

And they've got a, you know, they get off gas roadmap and

they've made some real strides.

So it's, you know, what you're saying is kind of true.

Governments are getting it.

Yeah.

And I reckon households will get it when they can see that the cost benefit is

so high and that the technology for, you know, induction cooktops are so

fun and cool and easy to use and, and

they are keep clean.

But like I, and I look at the moment, energy prices are expensive.

Yeah.

But we keep subsidizing energy prices.

Are we gonna take some, if you build, can we just put solar panels and

a battery in full electrification?

And you know what, your energy bills are pretty small.

Like the answer there.

House runs itself.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Like, it's honestly, like, I don't want come across a wrong way here,

but like, if you choose not to do that, um, I understand people that

maybe can't afford it, but if you are building, you actively putting a gas

appliance, that's your problem for, don't complain that it's too expensive.

Like,

yeah.

So that's, I mean, that's the, that's the big challenge now, right?

We know what, we know what to do.

Yeah, but it's the people who can't afford to outlay the

capital, especially to do it.

Yeah.

And that's where governments need to step in and really definitely kind of make that

happen with the rebates and the programs and the targeted programs and stuff.

And, and then, 'cause the risk is that, you know, if everyone's left on the

gas network, the people who are left on the network will pay these really

high prices and they're the people who will be least able to afford.

That's the

iron.

So, irony of it all, isn't

it?

Yeah.

So that's, you know, government's got a really big role there.

I reckon

that's, yeah.

So, 'cause part of Renew, you've got Renew and Sanctuary,

they're under the same banner.

Yep.

They're the two magazines

that we're publish publish two magazines.

Yeah.

Yeah.

But ultimately it's about sustainability.

Yeah.

What would you define as then a sustainable home?

Uh, I think a sustainable Home is one that uses, uh, both in its

construction and in its running as little resource as possible.

So.

And the beautiful thing about a sustainable home that you are

conceptualizing from the beginning is that you can make a whole bunch of decisions

about before you build it, what it's gonna look like and how it's gonna face, you

know, what, how it's gonna be oriented and what you're gonna build it out of.

We don't all get to make those choices.

Yeah.

Um, you know, we've got 11 million homes in Australia, uh, 70% of them built before

there was energy efficiency standards.

So if you've got a house that's built pre 2010 and it's energy efficient,

you're probably pretty lucky.

Yeah.

The average, I think average, is it?

Yeah.

Two on average.

2.2 stars.

Yeah.

Something like

that.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And that's on average.

Yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

I mean, there's a whole bunch of them.

They're like sitting on zero, right?

Or that, yeah.

Can't even get up over the, and

mostly say most people live in that.

Like, and I've gone from that recently, so I dunno, Hamish, you

know, I might live in a passive house now, you know, a passive house.

So not, it was on ground design too.

Uh, so you what really?

I hadn't noticed.

So you, like, I've gone from like, I don't even have you, you've

gone literally from the quintessential experience of most Victorians.

Yeah.

I don't even, how to describe it.

Like,

like just a drafty cold, you know, you, you're actually heating.

It was actually a room to stay warm.

Not the whole

house.

It was, it was actually warmer outside.

Sometimes in winter, sometimes it's inside, like, and now I come in,

and this is not to glow, but my wife and she hates it when I tell her

this, when it was 45 the other day.

It was too hot to open the window.

So she goes, I'm just having a shower to warm up.

God's having, that's the level of Yeah, but we should be getting to, hang on,

let, let's, let's say, this is an interesting point.

She's having a shower to warm up using, uh, solar powered hot water.

Yeah.

So like what I'm getting, that's what I'm getting at Energy free is

energy free hot

water.

And it works.

But it, it's like, and I actually, now I've said this to Hamish, I

really now struggle advocating for sustainable construction and talking

about this type of home because it far exceeds what even I expect, right?

Expected.

And I really hate the word sustainable home.

Like why is it just like it's home?

Well, you know what I reckon those of us that work in sustainability, yeah.

Just house don't like the word sustainability sometimes.

Yeah.

But I also think that we have to remember that.

We are still talking to people about stuff that people don't understand.

Yeah.

And I reckon the community's just getting a hold of that word and

we shouldn't walk away from it.

Right.

Yeah.

So that's just really interesting.

'cause I, I, I don't know if I can talk about this, but I will anyway,

so I had a big planning two planning days last week with SBA and I actually

challenged the team in this meeting about using the word sustainable.

I said, I actually feel if you kind of zoom out out of our bubble and look

at the people that we're trying to attract into this organization, I think

we need to drop the word sustainable.

Maybe, I mean, it depends, you know, there's a lot of campaigns around,

by

the way, sustainability,

people listening to this.

We're not copying the word sustainability

builder,

the logo conversation, just the just builder and someone take

the UL it, it more, it was more,

it is a good thought though.

How

do, how do we educate?

How do we communicate?

Yeah.

How do we communicate?

And that's a marketing piece, right?

Well, it is, and I mean, we talk about it, you know, we run sustainable

house days, so we've got that in our, in our, one of our biggest events

is called, has got that word in it.

And, um, you know, I think, but a lot of other people have started thinking

about, well, what does it look like?

Well, it's, it's healthy homes.

It looks exactly the same.

It's comfortable homes.

And it's safe homes.

Yeah.

And we're talking about homes that are both energy efficient to run, are

comfortable to live in for the people who live in them and are safe in terms

of climate, being climate safe and are resilient in the face of things like,

you know, smoke and, um, storm air and air quality and all that sort of stuff.

And so.

Uh, when we unpack it, we know what it means.

And obviously I always say, you know, you can have a word.

Don't worry about the word so much.

What, what matters is the stories that you're telling Exactly in the community

to people at different points in time.

And that's

actually exactly what I was challenging the, the group last week about

like, how do we, how do we bring everyone along for the journey?

'cause I reckon if you just, if you got them in and started talking to

'em about like the facts, all the things that you just talked about,

I would say 95% of people would be like, oh yeah, that makes sense.

Right?

What you need.

That makes sense.

What you need with Sustainable House stays almost.

You need Sustainable House night when it's damn cold outside and everyone

stays night has sleepover and they wake up going, gee, I slept pretty well.

I think that's good.

The CEO sleep out, isn't it?

Yes.

CEO Sleep in

We digs for a second.

I just wanna circle back to something you said earlier on.

So, um, 25 years ago, you're a speech pathologist.

Mm-hmm.

Now, um, we're going through a really fantastic experience with speech

pathology moment with my middle child.

Now I look at what, um, this particular person's doing for my

children at the moment, and it's such a fantastic thing, helping people.

Why the shift?

You're, you're already in a industry where you are actively improving

people's lives and you know.

I, I don't have a severely autistic child, but I have a child that is,

you know, going through some stuff that we need to help 'em with.

Like, you could be life changing for some people in that role.

Mm.

She's doing that now though.

Why?

Yeah.

What, and you

know,

I guess I'm just trying to understand, moving, moving from

this, this, it's a good question.

I mean, I, I, and, and there were some lives that I, I do know that I did,

did touch on and, and I, but I also know that other equally as good, well

qualified speech pathologists could have also changed those people's lives.

'cause you know, you have a four year degree and you know what you're doing.

So you, you do what you're supposed to be doing professionally.

Um, but for me, at a personal level, um, I didn't actually start

out by, to plan a career change.

I started out by going back to uni to get some skills so that I could volunteer.

I wanted to go and volunteer for an environment.

I went to university to volunteer.

What was that?

You went to university?

So I could go and volunteer.

Yeah, I suppose I did.

So, rack up, rack up,

rack up, rack up a h extent.

Well, no, I just paid up front.

Yeah,

yeah.

Um, it was a very short qualification.

Okay.

It was, I did it part-time over a couple years and, and I mean, I was

the only speech pathologist that was doing environmental law that year.

Um, it was a lot of lawyers and there was a lot of environmental people.

Yeah.

And I remember going around the table introducing ourselves and I was like,

and I'm a, um, speech pathologist.

That's a bit weird.

But anyway.

Um, but I think it was because I had a bit of a naive idea that we just needed

to get in the ear of politicians and tell 'em how it was and they would fix it.

And guess what?

That doesn't work.

I don't know.

I

don't know if it's that easy,

you know, this, it's a, it's a whole journey.

So, you know, I was pretty, I was, I was pretty young at the time, but.

I wanted to be part of an organization.

I was, you know, at that time when I talked to my friends about what

I wanted to do, most people didn't know much about climate change.

Mm-hmm.

Um, they didn't know much about sustainability.

I think my friends always thought I was a bit of a greenie, you know?

Um, always talk about the ozone layer back in the nineties.

Yeah.

And telling my cousin not to use hair spray out of a

spray bottle, stuff like that.

You might not have, remember that You're

a bit young,

but, but you know,

I was born in the eighties.

It was 89.

Yeah.

The hairspray.

I have no hair

left anyway.

I have no hair left anyway, so there's no hair to spray up anymore.

Um, a big and big hair was a, a big thing back then, right?

So there was a lot of hairspray going on.

So

lots of hairspray.

Um.

So, yeah, so I think it was just a, a, an opportunity to think about how to

make a difference in a different way.

And I guess that's, you know, as you go through your career, you're always,

you're always sort of evaluating, particularly in this space with climate

change and, and, um, is you're always evaluating how to best influence things

around you in the best way you can.

And also, you know, you've gotta have a job and, and, uh, you know,

keep, keep some income coming in as well, you know, but, but I think,

um, yeah, constantly taking stock of how we, how we make change.

And it's, it's very interesting for me to land at Renew because Renew is

a very, is an organization that's very focused on community capacity building

and enabling people in the community to make changes at a household level.

And in some ways that was quite confronting for me at first.

I'm like, you know, we're not gonna actually solve the climate

crisis one house at a time.

But if there's anything I learned from my time, you know, lobbying politicians

and being in that political space, it's that politicians generally don't lead.

They generally follow the community.

They want the community to show them that they want the changes to happen,

the systemic changes, and they wanna see that things can happen and that

the community can make stuff happen.

That's who votes for 'em, that's why.

Yeah.

Right.

Because that's who votes for them.

Yeah.

And so the, so the, you know, the, the political change that we wanna see is

not political change, it's social change.

And social change happens because there's a momentum for it.

And momentum happens because the community.

Learns about stuff or, or demonstrates that things can happen.

And then politicians go, oh, look what you can do there that's really clever.

Or a business, you know, creates some invents, something new and

they put it in front of government and governments go, oh, that's,

that's good that you're doing that.

We'd, we'd like to get on board with that.

So, you know, and I think I was probably just very naive about how

social change happened when I started.

Have you got an example of, um, the time that you were working in Canberra

of like one of those moments where, you know, you were involved in maybe

a community group which then got into the year of a politician and

then you actually saw some, like, tangible change off the back of that?

Yeah, I mean the, the first one I saw was back in 2011 and the a CT

government was about to set its climate change target for 2020.

And, um, and a, you know, and in some ways a lot of people in the community

didn't even know this was happening.

But the local climate orgs and the stu and some students at the uni got

really mobilized and they started campaigning for a 40% target by 2020.

You've gotta remember back in 2011, that was a big target.

Yeah.

But that's what the science was telling us that they needed.

And we all know that the a CT is tiny and that their energy

consumption is not industrialized.

So it's very, it's very niche, but

lots of solar panels.

Yeah,

lots of solar panels.

Bluebird like always

blue skies and

day

blue skies.

Yeah.

And, and people who, you know, average income in the act is a

little bit higher than it is in, in other parts of the country.

Lots of

employed people, so people can afford some of the upfront costs.

But, um, but also the government, you know, the government had kind

of really got bit bogged down in sort of climate policies that

weren't really going anywhere.

And anyway, this, this little group, it was called Canberra, loves 40%.

And they put it on t-shirts and they started campaigning and they were

out there in front of politicians.

And because, uh, the politicians are very close to the people in the a CT, 'cause,

you know, everyone knows everybody.

Um, it gave the, it gave the government of the day the space to do that.

And they, they did that.

And once they did that, they started, you know, that kickstarted

a whole bunch of stuff, like the large scale feed in tariffs, um,

where the a CT started purchasing renewable energy outta the grid.

Um, and so the a CT was a hundred percent renewable by 23.

So, so when, when you're talking about, um, uh, getting in front

of, um, government, you're not talking federal because, no.

That was the a CT government because you, there's potentially

just wanna clarify that because even though you are in Canberra.

You know, they do still have Oh, oh yeah, that's right.

I, I

was in, in little Canberra.

Yeah.

Yeah.

They, they still do have like a, like Canberra

or a ct.

Yeah.

I, I, I speak of some from somebody who's lived there for 25 years.

Yeah.

And, um, I, federal politicians to ask to people who live in Canberra,

federal politicians are people who just turn up every few weeks.

Yep.

And when people say, I don't like Canberra, 'cause of all the politicians,

I'm like, yeah, but you sent them here.

Yeah.

Like, they're not ours.

Whereabouts in, can, whereabouts in Canberra were you?

Uh, I lived in a few places, mostly on the north side.

I've spent, spent a year down on the south side.

You know, it's a very small place, so it's pretty easy to get

around and you have to drive more

than it's 20 minutes away and a few, it's

about safe.

It's more than 20 minutes away.

You don't go.

So my, my wife's from Canberra.

She's, um, family house in, uh, in Chapman.

So we go up there a couple times a year.

So I know, I know, I know Cam very, very familiar with Canberra and seen a really

positive change over the last 20 odd years that me and Lisa have been together.

So I really, I really like Canberra.

It's actually a beautiful place to live, and it's a really

great place if you've got kids.

Yeah.

Young kids.

You know, I used to throw my lad on the back of the bike and

Yep.

Um, commute into work every day.

Drop him off at the, you know, daycare center and then keep riding and

two hours to the ski fields.

Two hours to the coast.

Two hours to the coast.

Yeah.

It's, yeah, it's a beautiful spot.

Beautiful spot.

They don't like us talking about it too much, just in case people turn

up.

Yeah, exactly.

And, and do you know what, the south coast of New South Wales is terrible.

Don't go, don't go there.

No, it's, that's a horrible place I've heard.

Yeah, it's really terrible.

I don't want the beaches that we go to every year.

Right.

To be crowded.

Sustainable house day.

So March?

No, you put no, you put in the thing March 17th and I'm like, what's not March 17th?

It's actually May 17th.

It's May the

17th.

May 17th.

That's

right.

Yeah.

It, it's not just about Sustainable House Day.

You'll do like a bit of a whole month with webinars and all this other stuff.

Yeah, we do.

So,

yep.

Want to kind of really expand on that because personally that's a resource I use

when I first started going down this road.

Um,

and everyone knows about Sustainable House Day.

Yeah.

Everyone knows that.

Thats good.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Well, maybe I'm just in a bubble.

Check us out on Instagram at the moment.

It's looking pretty.

It's looking pretty nice.

Great.

Alright.

Yeah.

So we're gonna, we'll Instagram is just sustainable House day.

We'll, we'll easy find.

Yep.

Beautiful.

Yeah.

So.

Essentially today we can go around and check out houses that are

sustainable, um, and understand what they might look and feel like.

The hard part, as we sort of joked before that, it's sort of hard to experience

unless you live in them a hundred percent.

What it does is it gives confidence that sustainable architecture and

houses aren't concrete boxes or boring.

Like they can look sexy.

Well, they, they're not, they're not hippie.

They're not hippie boxes.

Right.

They're, they're, they're, they're beautiful homes.

That just make sense.

Well, as I think it was, Anna said, like when she first started the working

in the magazine, that should take any how she could get didn't look good.

But now, like the competition's hard to get into those magazines.

Hard

it is to get into Sanctuary Magazine now.

I

didn't actually, but I do know I got two last year.

Yeah, no, no, no.

I've been in it too.

Um,

yeah, it's some pretty good criteria going on at the moment.

It

is, yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It's, you know, it's an interesting thing 'cause Sanctuary Magazine, the idea that

a sustainable house is a beautiful house.

Yeah.

Something that I feel is, is sort of out there a little bit.

Obviously sustainable houses can be really beautiful homes.

Um, I think the, the idea that we are trying to get out there

as well now is that normal homes can be massively sustainable.

And that's, that's actually a bit harder 'cause people are like, oh,

sustainable House Day and Sanctuary.

It's all very beautiful.

Um,

unachievable, you know, to

unachievable out of reach for rich people.

Yep.

Buildings

for I building is for rich people.

Like I think we've gotta all acknowledge that right now.

I think building, yes.

Yeah, building.

But, but, but, but sustainability, there's always a point where

doesn't any, it doesn't add any extra cost.

Right?

We, there's places where people can tap into sustainability no matter

where they're up to in that journey.

And it, it might be, you know, with your caulking gun going around,

sealing up your gaps, or it might be putting your ceiling installation

in, or it might be, if you're lucky.

Retrofitting your double glazing or

whatever.

Yeah, because, because let's, let's be clear here.

Sustainable House Day is not just for new homes.

It's actually Good point.

And I think there's gonna be a big focus on, I remember, um,

Ben Russell's house last year.

He's Alistair Knox Home in war.

Um, sold out like that last year.

I remember, uh, 'cause I remember talking to his wife about

having to, she's exhausted.

She, she's, she's still exhausted by it.

Um, 'cause you do resources like.

Converting to like electric electrification.

Yeah.

There's also just like sealing up,

I guess the point I was making is not just new homes, it's all, that's all existing

homes of people that, that might have done some modifications, which would then

lead to a healthier, comfortable home.

Yeah, that's right.

So we, we, you know, we are really keen to showcase lots of, we had a lot, lots of

new retrofits that were listed last year.

Yeah.

Um, and lots of homes that are on that electrification journey.

So people who've either just electrified their homes or people

who've gone back and done that thermal efficiency work on their homes.

Um, and I think, you know, it is a bit of a sequence and I, I

did it on my house in Canberra.

It's, you know, it was a three bedroom, 1959 cottage and it was, you know, I

remember when we bought it and moved in the day the ceiling insulation went in.

'cause I could literally feel the difference.

We were in a heat wave.

Oh, so you didn't have Mr. Fluffy in there?

I thought I did for a minute, but no, got

the asbestos in

session.

Got it

tested.

Blowing asbestos.

Got it tested.

It's like the Wizard of Oz again.

Yeah.

Goodness.

That was such a tragic situation.

Yeah, it was really, really traumatic for people.

Horrible.

Yeah,

yeah,

yeah.

For those who dunno, there was a, there was a period in the 6 56,

yeah, I think it was 60 seventies

blowing, blowing insulation and it was blowing asbestos or

it was just blown in asbestos.

That's it.

Blown.

Blown in asbestos.

Like it was fibrous, like insulation in the roof.

Loose, loose

fill.

And it would like get into all the duct work.

And then the, even when they had it cleared out, geez, fall

down between the cavities and the walls.

It was a massive government buyback of all the Mr. Fluffy homes.

They

all got knocked.

It was, it was like from a durability and water perspective, like the best

product they, that killed people.

Oh, they weren't, they weren't burning down a bushfire.

No, no.

Yeah.

It's like, it was like the best but worst building.

So I've got a really hard question for you and you've gotta pick one here.

So you've got two magazine, sanctuary and, and renew.

What's your favorite?

Oh no.

That's like choosing a favorite child.

Yeah, but let's face it, I've got three kids.

I've got a favorite.

I love them both.

I'm

joking.

Which one, if you got one in front of you, which one are you picking up for?

Because they're very different.

Oh.

Pick up whichever one's just come in the door.

That's not, I cannot do that.

My staff would just, no, I'm, it gives the competition to the opposite.

I'm tired.

When I'm tired, I would pick up sanctuary.

Yeah.

'cause it's got more pictures.

Yeah.

When, when I'm alert and wanna learn something really useful about, you

know, renewable technology, I would pick up or hear a great human story.

I'd pick up renew

Sanctuary,

like the

gateway drug.

Here's, here's a, here's a fun fact.

And my wife reminded me, um, this last night when I said you were coming on.

She goes, remember when we won that, um, solar powered, um,

hot water system in Sanctuary?

And I'm like, yes.

And at the time I didn't own a home, so I ended up selling it.

I, I was

about to say, did you get it?

That's

good that you got it.

I sold, I sold it to a friend of mine.

Yeah.

Yeah.

It was really in the sort of sustainable space.

But we were just on the verge.

On the

cusp

buying on the cusp of buying.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I'm like, oh, great.

I've won it.

So where do I put this?

Where do I put this thing?

It's great.

Um, but I, I mean, I'm, I'm huge fan of.

Sanctuary Magazine, like it's probably one of my favorites.

'cause we are

builders I think.

I think it's 'cause we're, yeah.

Builders

and

that, I mean, everybody loves a magazine that's got a house plan in it, doesn't it?

Yes.

Whether it's been renovated, like you can go, oh, there's

the before, there's the after.

Oh, that's so clever.

Um, you know, everyone loves, I love looking at that.

I'm, I'm a bit of a map girl, so that's like the map of a house is, is always fun.

So yeah.

One of the things I wanted to go back to, which is sort of links in now and

what really drives me insane about our industry is this like sustainability

category when we have all these awards is we have a sustainability

section, not Sustainable house.

Why the fuck is in every house?

Just that is the bare minimum of every

Well,

right.

Why isn't it?

Yeah.

So, you know, we've got these housing standards that have just come in.

Yeah.

You know, seven star houses.

But we know, I mean, we all know that it's gonna be pretty tough for.

It's gonna be tough to be confident that all new houses are meeting

that standard all the time.

Yeah.

Um, especially retrofits, but look at a step up from what it was.

And it's a step up from nothing.

I mean, if only there was a way to ensure that it was built to seven staff

compliance,

but like, so, so I was, I was on a judging

verification,

so I was on a judging panel for one of the associations last year

for some awards and the year before that, and I think I've been given

the flick because I, I wonder why.

So they have to sustainability section in there and they're

like, oh, we built a six stars.

I was like, oh, so you didn't build a code.

Wow.

So I'm giving 'em zero in that category.

And they're like, no, no, but they, they, they put in a rain water tank.

I was like, yeah, because the council made them like we, and I don't, I don't

think I'm invited back, but like, that's what frustrates me about these awards

a lot of the time is that often the, the real stuff is getting missed and we

have to have a sustainability category.

And, and we have to have a sustainability magazine to showcase the houses

where like why in every magazine on the basis of what you guys do

is where I'm kind of getting at.

Yeah.

I, I mean I kind of hope that we're about to see a shift, you know, I know

that we've seen even some stuff on grand designs, you know, we started

to see, okay, let's not do so grand.

Right.

Because it's brand designs though.

Most though sustainable, you know, maybe it could be re rebag.

I don't know.

There's something there.

Sustainable designs.

Sustainable designs.

That's right.

But you know, I, I have a colleague in who works in the space in Canberra,

and she used to list her homes in the sustainability category.

And I remember her telling me a couple years in a row, we were the only people

that listed homes to be nominated.

No wonder I won because they just, people weren't putting them forward.

Yeah.

And all these homes were winning awards and, and there was just no tip of the hat.

And people are spending a lot of money building very beautiful

homes, but they'd just spent a tiny bit more time thinking about it.

Then there's absolutely no reason why those kinds of people shouldn't

be building sustainable homes.

Well, I'll tell you what, sustainability starts the, before

you start drawing lines on paper.

Exactly.

Like forget about solar panels, forget about rain water tangs, forget about your

appliances, forget about all of that.

It starts, it's not a bolt on.

Like I say, that performance is not a bolt on.

I think sustainability is, is not a bolt on either.

'cause you can have an amazingly designed home and it's just

facing the absolute wrong

Right.

Wrong direction,

wrong direction.

And for so long, like I like when I, my journey was.

I'm a green builder, didn't do anything to make myself a green builder.

I just thought it was sounded good.

That was how it originally started.

And then you're like, oh, I've gotta actually understand more.

So you do passive house and you see that and it's like you drink the Kool-Aid.

Yep.

And then for a period of time you're like, that's the only way to do things.

I think in the last year and a half I've really learnt that

sustainability is just more than that.

Like, it's like a puzzle.

And whilst you're probably never gonna complete a full puzzle and

fit every piece in there, there's multiple aspects that make up.

I'm, I'm, I'm sitting here smiling right now 'cause obviously I'm pretty privy

to what we're doing at Sustainability Alliance and I can't talk about it yet,

but I'm genuinely excited with some of the things that we're about to bring

out that gives people really great.

Guidelines around what's, and again, yes, we're kind of driving the narrative here,

but what we believe, and I think we're coming from a good pool of builders who

actually believe in this stuff, of what actually a good sustainable home is.

And it does include a big part of it, performance construction.

But then there's all these other things that you need to layer on as well.

You

can't tick every box I tried in my As and you just generally can't.

Uh, but I think you can tick a lot of the boxes though, if you can

tick

7, 8, 10. Don't think it's about like every decision that's put in front

of you, taking the best decision you can for every, whether it's, whether

it's a new home, whether it's a block, whether it's a retrofit, whatever

it is, it's about making a choice where you, you're conscious about

what you're doing, which is lovely.

'cause this is the Mindful Builder podcast, right?

So it is actually about that.

It's about having a lens that says, okay, here's a decision.

What am I gonna do?

Here's another decision.

What am I gonna do?

Yeah, I'm thinking about it.

I'm thinking about it.

I'm gonna get the best outcome I can.

Yeah.

And you know, it was really interesting 'cause somebody, I, I got a question

the other day on a radio interview, which I'll ask, I'll ask you.

Yeah.

Okay.

Go.

Carl Ando.

It was a Carl and

JackieO.

Um, and the question was, what about how do you build a sustainable house on

a really narrow house block when it's in a, you know, a suburban development

and it's facing the wrong way and the block's really long and thin?

What do you do?

Watch

my Grand

Designs episode.

There you go.

Well, it's, I mean, in, in my opinion, it's all about exactly what you just said.

Yeah.

It's about considering all of the, like in that scenario, it's not gonna be perfect.

And the thing is, if we actually said, oh, well, I'm just going

to give up and, and just build whatever the fuck I want on that.

Site, then you're gonna fail.

But if all the decisions that you're making is giving you

the best possible outcome, then that's a really great result.

And it's probably gonna be pretty good.

Start with Orient.

It's gonna be better than what you had.

You're gonna be, be the top 1% house in Australia.

And also, not only that, you're gonna end up with a really cool, unique home.

You are using this as part of the design consideration.

So one of the things that we did with our house, and it talks about before

it hits the pen and paper, is our, we're 190 square meters, 25 meters

long by six and a half meters wide.

Tiny in, say

that again?

25 meters long.

Yeah, six and a half wide.

Wow.

So one night into Yarraville where

we are right now is bigger than Map Block.

So it's time.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

So, so, and the back, the backyard or the front is north.

So you, you can't, you're building on, you gonna

open up your street frontage to the north.

Yeah.

So we,

we, you do a really good job of actually bringing in the front yard.

So our backyard is our front yard as well.

Yeah.

We just push it all to one space, which council's minds were blown by that.

They're like, oh, where's your backyard?

It's like, at the front.

No, no.

Where's your backyard?

At the front.

At the front.

Like, like, like, we're allowed to choose where to do that.

Um,

it's a front backyard.

I actually got, this is so stupid.

We got told off by, well, we had to go to vcat.

One of the reasons was because I had too much North face glazing.

Go figure.

I'm gonna use your house as the example of that question.

I mean, I, I basically answered it, right?

I'm like, well, I'm not a builder, but which, but it was kind of,

you know, you gotta think about it first, but I'm gonna get your house

out, have a look at it and check it out and go, go, go check out this.

'cause yeah,

I wish I could do Sustainable House.

Say I've just got NDA still around and because of grand Designs, but.

And was

your house on designed?

Yeah.

Wow.

But like, and my wife, I think she's sick of people coming through, but the,

I've got a really cool project that we're, I really wanted to do it this

year, but May 17th is not gonna work.

But we've got a really cool project next year, which my

client's really excited to get on.

And it is another Alistair Ox home.

Uh, and there you go.

And Sam Cox is doing the landscape.

So it's gonna be primo come,

it's there.

The answers.

The thing is, as I say, the answers are there.

Like I have a, what is it, a five meter wide front backyard,

and I still got a 5,000 liter underwater ground rainwater tank.

Yeah.

Like you can do it.

Yeah.

And you can, and, and I still, and I've got a water filter out the front.

I've like, I've got solar.

Like the answers are there.

You don't have to go hard to find them and just stick to simple stuff.

Like, I think the thing is we all over complicate this and Yeah.

We,

I think that's really, that is so true.

Like it's actually.

That hard and one of the biggest challenges, this is why Sustainable

House Day is so good because it actually unpacks it for people.

Yeah.

Well, puts it in context and puts it in context.

Yeah.

And one of the things that we've, we, we heard back last year was that 70% of

people who went to Sustainable House Day walked away and said, we're gonna make

a change in the next six to 12 months to our house based on what we learned today.

Yeah.

And because it makes it all really tangible, they can touch it,

feel it, hear it, experience it.

Yeah.

Like, I remember when I visited, visited,

so I just need to turn my marketing on to ex renovations come end of May,

locations on the day where they're just target the little metadata.

I remember I went out to see a passive house out at W Diet a couple of years ago.

Jessie's Yeah.

Jessie's house.

Jessie's, yeah.

Yeah, that's right.

Yeah.

And um, you know, I remember standing in there going, wow, I've never been

inside a, a. A passive house before, like I've never had this experience.

It feels, and it sounds really different.

Um, and then other people might just be going, how loud is this

heat pump for the neighbors?

Yeah.

And they can hear your heat pump and they're like, oh,

it's not that bad, actually.

That's okay.

Which do

the

really interesting thing about Jesse's place too is it's

right on the main road on

right on a busy corner,

on a roundabout.

And I'm, I live in Warrendale as well, so I know that, I know

drive path every single day.

And I remember the first time I went into Jess's house closing

the door and thinking, wow,

yeah,

I was not expecting this.

No.

'cause

it faces out to the oval as well and the creek running out the back.

So you block out all of this.

Yeah.

And that's probably a really great example of designing for the location.

I hated our first night.

It was too quiet.

I was like, I have made the biggest mistake in my life.

I've gone all in on this sustainable passive house thing.

And I was like, this sucks.

It's too quiet.

It was too comfortable.

Too comfortable.

It was, it was too quiet.

It's like I can hear the voices in my head.

I'm literally just like, right

now,

what have I, oh my God.

Like my whole business structure is just like, and, and then I woke up

in the morning and it was 5:00 AM in the morning, and I was like, oh, it's

so easy to get outta bed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So like,

I, I wanna, that's a good question.

So you got, you've got two, two magazines, or two publications to go out.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, what's, have you seen a shift in like your readership or your

audience over the last few years?

Or have you got any kind of data on that or who, who your audience actually is?

Oh, I don't have any.

Well, we know that our audience is that, I mean, I think our, I don't think our

audience is one type of person, but we know that people who, you know, have

long standing commitment to renew.

And the magazines and the publications that are often people who are really

interested in the issues, they're often early adopters of technology.

Um, we have a lot of people in industry and builders and, and, um, people

who are into electrification and electricians and things like that.

Yeah.

Um, and then we have people who are just, you know, they just love this stuff.

Yeah.

Um, but I think what we do know, aside from the magazines, we, we

know that people are really hungry for this kind of information.

Yeah.

Um, and they're, they're really, they're looking for how to do it.

Um, you know, we held a, a battery webinar last year, uh, 'cause

the battery rebate was launched.

And we had 400 people sign up for that webinar in a couple of weeks.

Wow.

Wow.

And it's an insane amount of, um, interest.

Um, and, and so people are really looking for very tangible advice.

Very, you know, clear.

Information, but they also wanna know that they can trust where it's coming from.

Yep.

Um, and that people who are giving them the information don't have

a vested interest in giving them particular pieces of information.

So, um, we often try to, you know, tell people about the things to think

about when you're buying a product.

We don't kind of recommend products.

Yeah.

So we're not like choice.

We don't test products and things like that, but we'll say, Hey,

when you are looking for a heat pump, look out for this issue.

Look out for your warranty, look out for noise, look out for, you know,

coefficients of efficiency, et cetera.

Yep.

But, but we don't go, so we don't say go buy a blah, blah.

Um, so people really, people really want that information.

But I think the other thing that we do know that people want in our audience

is they wanna know about their house and their context and their situation.

And so they wanna say, Hey, I've got a 2.5 kilowatt solar system on my roof.

It's 10 years old.

Should I be adding more solar to it?

But if I get a battery, do I connect them up?

Do I need a new inverter?

And it's always very personal.

Yeah, I realized that too.

And so one of the things we, I really wanna do over the next year is really

build the number of opportunities that we're offering people to

ask questions about their stuff.

We're happy to do that with you guys.

We're happy to jump on a webinar or something when they can just

ask the builder whatever you

want.

Oh, I mean, there's that, I was, we

did that last, didn't we?

Yeah, yeah.

I jumped

on.

Definitely give that one a rerun.

Yeah.

Um, but even, even just some FAQs, like some Right.

You know, some collaborative FAQs.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Because, because people just want, they just want that information and they

wanna know that they can rely on it.

And it's very interesting to me.

Like, I always think you should be able to trust the information you get from

governments, but apparently people don't.

I

dunno why.

I actually think, like, if you think about Renew and you think about sanctuary, like

that's a pretty reputable source of where that information is coming from in my

Yeah, no, I agree.

Agree.

In my opinion,

but

Yeah.

But how do, but because the people that feed into Renew and Sanctuary Magazine

are often working in the space, like they're off, well, they're nearly always.

Unless they're community stories or householder stories, which obviously we,

we try to weave community and household into, into the magazines because we

are a community based organization.

But the contributors are often people like yourselves.

They're people working in building construction, design,

electrification, energy, um, solar.

So they're experts and, and they, you know, they're giving back.

It's actually our membership is wonderful 'cause they're actually people who are

giving back to the community and they're not asking for very much in return.

And we,

yeah, you should increase

your

membership.

It's pretty, I wanna try and leverage those people to Yeah, to

to, to do that, to keep doing that.

That's why people sign up to be members.

'cause I wanna give back.

I actually look at like your membership and it's compared to

some of the other ones after pay.

I'm like, guys, you guys give way more, increase yours and you

should definitely be declining.

I'm not gonna say who.

Um, but it's, I shouldn't say, I shouldn't open my mouth too much.

Cut that.

Gonna cut

that bit?

Cut that bit out.

No, don't cut that bit out.

Cut that bit out.

Um, get, put pressure on the, everyone else, like, as I always say, like I'm

will tell you if I don't like something.

And that then gives them the pressure to improve and meet the

standards of what you guys are

doing.

That's why I kept telling Beck that we just need to be apprehensive about

getting mad on as an ambassador for SBA.

I'm like, we just need to make sure that we put a muzzle on him sometimes.

Yeah.

No filter.

Not at all.

That's right.

Matt.

You can promote membership of renew as no much as you like.

How do we become a member of Renew?

Like, like it's.

It's a great resource, but like how do we get, 'cause we have, we are pretty,

the way that we run our business now, people who come to us know what we do.

And we have, we want a passive house, we want a healthy, high performing house.

But let's say, let's go to John's building down the corner that might not have that

opportunity and their clients uneducated.

And then what gets lost along the ways because they don't know, then

they don't educate the client.

How do we get new people that just don't get this?

How do we get them picking up the magazine?

How do we get them?

Like, I love you guys have like little Netflix series

or something like that, that

we Right, right.

Yeah.

I mean I think it's, I think these days it has to always be through social media.

Yeah.

So we, you know, and, and I say that with.

You know, half of my brain saying our social media hasn't been great for a

little while, but it's, it's on the up and it's looking beautiful now.

And, um, but I think that's where, you know, that's where we

find new audiences and, and, um, people who work in that space.

You know, I, I'm on, I'm on certain platforms, but you know,

my youngest staff come in and go, we need to be on this platform and

this platform and this platform.

Yeah.

You can't do it all.

And, and those are where people, you know, the people that we wanna start

talking to are sort of 25 to 45.

They might have just bought their first home.

They might even still be renting.

'cause we've got 30% of Australians are renting.

Um.

That's where, you know, people are hungry for information.

They actually know about climate change.

They kind of get it.

They're not having the fight about whether climate change is real or not.

I mean, some people are, but most people aren't.

Yeah.

We know that most Australians are actually pretty okay with it.

Um, and they wanna live more sustainably, but they also want their

energy bills to go down and they wanna live in a comfortable house.

And they shouldn't, they don't wanna be kicking around in a, in a,

excuse my language, but in a shit box for like, you know, 10 years.

Oh, you can swear, we

swear all time.

I noticed you did that.

I

say fuck all the time.

You

know, they don't wanna be living like that.

No.

And they don't want their kids to be living like that.

And they don't want their kids to be in houses that have got mold or damp,

you know, where they're getting chest infections and, um, they can't get

well or they're frying up in summer.

And, and we know that people who are, who are sick or elderly or have

disabilities are really at risk of heat.

And when we're getting these heat waves coming across the country where, you

know, if you looked at the map this summer and you see what the heat looks like in

some places across Australia, it's hot.

It's actually really frightening.

50

degrees.

Like that's what you

stuck slow cooking.

So, and inside the house it's really unhealthy and people are really vulnerable

if they don't hydrate or stay cool.

And so, you know, I think there's a real, I think there's a real growth

audience there for that stuff.

Do you feel it's ironic that those older people were probably the ones

that didn't push for this, that they're now having to deal with it?

I think, I think people just show, you know, sharing information.

I just think social change takes, takes things to take forever

until suddenly it happens.

It's kind of like, and you know what, you're a pretty really

good person to talk about that.

'cause you're talking 25 plus years in this space and I guess now

we are sitting here talking on a podcast about it with a couple of.

Centrally thinking builders actually campaigning for this stuff.

Like

Mm,

you wouldn't have had this conversation 20 years ago?

No,

no.

Not, not about not the way we are now about homes and sustainability.

Yeah.

I mean, you know, you're right.

The a CT is quite progressive and, and interestingly the a CT had, you

know, the, the mandatory disclosure.

So you, when you buy a house, you could know what the EER reading was.

Did you

know that I have about the mandatory disclosure of, um, uh, literally this

is my next topic and you stole my

notes.

Oh, sorry.

Okay.

Before we do that, I just wanna just, you brought up renters before, so

sorry, Matt, let you have that one.

Um,

a lot of the time they got the hands tied.

I know we, we had, um, Tim Force on, you know, a few weeks ago talking about like,

really the little smoke, low hanging fruit can have you got anything else to

add about what renters can do because

mm-hmm.

It's not their home.

Yeah, that's right.

But they can still do things to their home to, to make it healthier and more

comfortable and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah, that's right.

So I mean, renters, there's two things for renters.

Firstly, there's a limited amount of things you can do, and the things that

you can do are the things that you can generally remove or don't impact

on the building envelope permanently.

Um, so curtains, um, you know, we've got a photo of a guy hanging a tarp off

a gutter on a westerly wall because if you can keep the heat off your westerly

walls in summer, you're actually keeping your house much more cool.

So much cooler.

So things that are temporary that you know, that you can do,

that you can walk away with.

Now the, the trick is I can make a whole bunch of suggestions and there'll

be a bunch of renters listening, maybe going, oh, I can't afford to do that.

And I'm like, okay, I get that.

Some people can't.

But there are options.

Um, there are some things, it's interesting 'cause in some of the

states, like in Victoria, there are some things that your landlord.

Must do.

Um, can't tell you not to do, unreasonably tell you not to do, and I didn't realize

this, but I think using a caulking gun to seal up gaps is one of those things.

Yeah.

No.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Um, so you can't unreasonably say no to that.

If I was a landlord and I had a tenant saying, Hey, do you mind if I go on caulk,

all the gaps, I'd be like, here you go.

I pay,

I'm coming to, I'll

pay, I'll pay, I'll pay for the caulking.

Here's the

cool.

Right.

That's the way it should be.

Yeah.

But, but you know, people don't know what they can and can't do.

So, so things, temporary stuff, thinking about having like fans in your home that

can cool you down, thinking about keeping rooms cool or hot in winter or summer

rather than heating the whole house.

Yep.

Um, here's a good one.

If the only gas that you're using is for your cooktop, then get it

disconnected and go and buy yourself a little, um, bench top induction cap.

Stop using, stop using it and put it, put it

put a little induction thing over the top.

Yeah, yeah,

yeah.

Just don't sign up to a gas bill.

Just don't sign up to a gas bill.

Yeah.

You don't get it disconnected off the, because

the trick is when people are on a hot water for gas.

Yeah.

And that's really challenging.

But then, you know, if, if you can, and you think your landlords are receptive,

then talk to them about the fact there are rebates on hot water systems.

I mean, you can get a, a pretty neat little hot water system rebated

in Victoria, particularly for, you know, a grand, two grand at the most.

Yep.

Yeah.

Reach out to their good friends over at good bug gas.

So one thing

that I, on this is I think, is that one of the high ed somewhere

that they want to force all.

Owners are there for a rental to insulate all the walls and ceiling.

Ceiling and ceiling insulation will be coming in Victoria.

Yeah.

For rental standards in 2027 for new rentals and 2030 for all rentals.

Yeah.

Um, there'll be an expected, a reasonable level of draft proofing.

Yeah.

Those were the two key things.

And then also cooling system.

Yeah.

So an energy efficient cooling system, which will effectively mean that everybody

ends up with an energy efficient.

So split system for heating as well.

Um, and they are coming, but Victoria is well and truly leading the pack.

So

my fear on this, I know where you're going with this.

Yeah.

Like we start, start now start to talk about indoor air quality because

we talk about comfort as one thing.

We've only touched energy efficiency to some point here.

What about the mold and condensation problem when we start having mold?

Who's liable at the government?

Because we have, well

we've got mold already.

Yeah.

We are doing

And nobody's liable.

Yeah.

Um, and, and it's a real problem.

It's

actually outta a real insurance policies

now

problem.

Yeah.

You know, when we look at rental standards, 'cause we are, we're doing

some work on rental standards at the moment and looking to model what are

the changes that we should be making, um, to homes and what do they cost, what

do they cost for the landlord to put in and what do they save for the tenant?

And we are looking at it right across Australia, across, um, different

climate zones in each jurisdiction.

And we're using, actually using passive house software to model it

because it's really good at doing the draft ceiling sort of side of things.

Um, and ventilation comes up in that conversation very, very quickly.

But, you know, at a practical level in across Australia, there is no

requirement to put in fly screens.

So, you know, even what I call actively ventilating your house.

Yeah.

As a somebody who's living in it.

People can't open their windows at home in certain places because

they don't have fly screens.

They're gonna get bitten to death.

Aren't, I mean, this is insane.

Aren't we one of the only countries that actually installed fly screens too?

Someone told me I think that we're not did

hear that.

So like with other countries don't have fly screens, they don't

even know what fly

speed are.

So, so, but I, but so one of the easy things for me is like every wet area,

I should be on a 30 minute timer.

I was gonna say

like,

or for a fan and one of those is a full-time running SL

that's gonna consume no energy.

Yeah.

There's an energy penalty percent potentially or some bit that just

takes the guesswork out of it.

Yeah, I agree.

Okay.

And, and I think that just should be NCC code regardless, but the.

I think that's such an easy thing.

And it can be like, the government can be like, you know what?

To de-risk, we're gonna give you a $500 credit or something to help you do that.

So one of the things I was talking to last, well, earlier guest on we had today

about like governments just looking in little individual silos and I'd actually

connecting the dots through things.

I go, oh, we're gonna fix this problem, this problem, this problem, this problem.

Like, no, no.

Fucking zoom out and look at it.

All insulation's great in the roof.

Insulation's great in the walls.

Draft proofing is really good too.

But then if you forget about ventilation, then don't do it.

Mm-hmm.

Because you, because you're actually creating an environment is what

you were getting on getting before.

Like, add onto that.

We need to have 30 minute running fans in the home.

Ev all our extraction points need to be deducted out.

And, and the reason I say that is, like, this is sounds potentially

really bad is like, I can't trust someone living in a house.

They're gonna turn it on.

Like what happens hypothetically, if That's

a really good point.

Yeah.

Because like, what if you've got, what if you've got the renter that just

like, I don't like turning it on and the kids don't turn off the shower

and then there's mold everywhere.

Mm-hmm.

That's a user problem.

Like what we would have in a handover package.

Yeah.

The issue is actually like this, people suck people we don't, we think

that we don't need to do, so I'll be fine about what happened in my house,

but how do we take the human element out of it and make it a smart home

mostly.

Look, you know, I think, I think if you, uh, if you've got a property

portfolio, I would argue that we are gonna, and, and when, when people

think about renters, they're probably just have it like an avatar in

their mind about what a renter is.

There's actually some.

Really educated, uh, high paid renters out there who are living

in homes who are demanding or will be demanding good homes to live in.

Absolutely.

And, and people are spending longer in their rental properties

now because of, you know, the unaffordability of, of a first home

for, for, you know, young family or

someone might, might wanna move into an area where there's a good school.

Right.

Yeah.

So like having, if, if you've got a portfolio, make it

appealing.

I think what's really interesting about the rental stuff is there's, I

think there's a bit of a, a sliding doors moment here maybe because in

terms of laws that are putting place to protect renters for energy efficiency.

It's really been the very low hanging fruit that the two governments that have

done anything about it have gone for.

And one's, one's the a CT and they've mandated ceiling insulation.

And the second one is Victoria, who's done the things that we just talked about.

Um, and credit where credit's due.

They didn't kind of, they, they actually stepped out of the silo

a little bit because they actually thought about how it intersected with

the getting the getting off gas stuff.

Yeah.

And they made those decisions at the same time about what they wanted to do.

But, you know, and, and the thing is, when we go to talk to other states

about rent, the, the conversation about rental standards in other

states is almost non-existent.

Um, new South Wales are just starting to have it.

Tasmania, west Australia, Queensland, not really on the boil.

Um,

Tasie is an interesting one 'cause they kind of, it's pretty cold down there.

Pretty bloody cold.

And, and so, you know, so what happens is that because governments,

as I said earlier, you know, governments don't like leading.

They like to follow.

But we could either do this thing where we go, okay.

At a bare minimum, you just need to mandate this.

Yeah.

Like we just wanna keep people basically safe.

So what is the bare minimum We need to ensure that people can live safely in

their homes and that you're not leasing out a home that is actually unsafe.

Yeah.

And then there's that idea that we could leapfrog that and go, actually

that's okay, but it's kind of crap.

And we know it's crap because we are really talking about

like ceiling insulation.

Whoopi do, like we're

Yeah.

A third of the way there or something, I don't know.

Um, and or do we wanna actually have a conceptual shift about

what it means to actually properly retrofit Australia's housing stock?

So that it's sealed, wrapped, ventilated.

It's an adult conversation.

It's an adult conversation.

But you know, the problem is politicians get such pressure when they start

making decisions about costs for potential costs for landlords.

And I understand that.

I act, I like, I think at a purest element, like people

buy, it's an investment.

They're trying to grow their wealth, they want the best return for money.

Like that's, I I actually understand that side.

I, well look at,

look at it some as,

as I, I challenge that.

Look at it as, I mean, I hear it, I challenge it because that, but

that's, that's what they're doing.

They're trying to build their wealth.

But from a lot, I was gonna rent a property, I'd be more

inclined to be like, Hey, I know Hay might be there for 10 years.

Hey, have we signed a longer lease?

And I'll put some money back into it to help you.

I'm secure for 10 years.

Let's just negotiate.

Not even a CPI increase just a basic 1%.

I'm set, I know for 10 years I've got long-term rent, my asset's being covered.

And, and not only that, your assets being looked after.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're

gonna have a vegetable patch.

They're gonna do this.

Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

They're actually

becoming,

it's becoming like, yeah, I'm gonna reduce your run.

If, like, if you could do some upkeep and maintain the garden,

there's maybe an incentive behind it.

I, I don't know.

I think we've

got, and then even, even sort of more deeply at the energy level, we

think, we think it might turn out that the cost of the upgrades that

you might wanna do to make a home safe are kind of the same costs that

the tenant's paying in energy bills.

And so.

If you could say to a tenant over 10 years, Hey, how about you pay your

energy bills to me, but I'll make your house really lovely to live in

Yeahinteresting.

You know, rather than interesting.

How about you keep paying shitty energy bills and living

in a shitty, shitty cold house

and it's only gonna increase?

And that's why I get back, the reason the person buys is investment.

It only increase their investment worth.