Offscreen is a series where I interview game masters of various actual plays to discuss the crunch craft differences between running a home game and running an actual play. 

Today’s episode features Dane Miller. Dane is the GM of No Quest for the Wicked, a story-driven actual play using Paizo's sci-fi space opera system Starfinder in a homebrew setting. No Quest for the Wicked received three Audioverse awards for Best Player Direction, Player, and New Improvised Show, as well Best Villain at the Crit Awards. 

Dain and I walked through why Actual Play’s low barrier to entry is appealing for independent creatives, how to maintain pacing for shorter episodes, and how to create a creative space for players who don’t come from a performance background.

You can find Dan on twitter @thedainiac on Twitter. You can find No Quest for the Wicked on any podcasting app, @NoQuestCast on pretty much every social media, and noquestcast.com for links to everything.

Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of Offscreen, a GM podcast. Offscreen is a series where I review game masters of various actual plays to discuss the differences between running a home game and running an actual play. Today I have with me, Dane Miller. Thank you so much for being with me, Dane Miller. Dane is the GM of No Quest for the Wicked, a story-driven actual play using Paizo's sci-fi space opera system Starfinder in a homebrew setting.

Thanks for having me.

No Quest for the Wicked received three Audioverse awards for Best Player Direction, Player, and New Improvised Show, as well as just recently winning the Best Villain at the Crit Awards. Congratulations, that's amazing.

Thank you, yeah, it's one of the coolest awards that we could have hoped. When we got nominated for it, we were like, oh, this is the one that we wanna win. This is...

Oh yeah, the best villain? Who doesn't love having a good villain? Cause like, mmm, it's just-

Yes. Yeah. I mean, that's like you think about it. It's like pretty much every great piece of media, like the villain makes or breaks it, in my opinion. Like you can't have a good story without a good villain. So that was that was very vindicating for me.

Absolutely.

Yeah, no, the antagonist, like the conflict is the central engine of a story. So like when you can make that character real juicy, yeah, that's the best. So my, no, keep going.

Mm-hmm. Especially cause, sorry, good. I was gonna say, especially cause like our villain, at least the one that won, is, he's very sparing, like he's not in it a whole lot. So it's nice to know that like the bits that he has shown up have made a moment and like an impact on people.

Hmm.

Yeah, the Darth Vader approach. They're like looming over a bit. Space opera, makes sense. So the first question I ask every guest I have on this show is why do you run games?

Yeah. Exactly.

So I come from a film background. I went to school for acting and then when I graduated There was much like what's happening now there was a writer strike in America and there was a actor strike in Canada where I'm from and So when I left college with all of my new acting knowledge and there was just nothing being made So I ended up getting into production and writing and making my own stuff with all of the actors that I had just

worked and met through college and I was like, cool, we're all hungry, we all need work, and we all need stuff for our reals, so let's make stuff. The problem with that is making movies is very expensive, especially if you want to do the shit that I want to do, which is like sci-fi and fantasy and adventure and stuff like that. You need money to do that. So it's nice. When I first got introduced into

Mm-hmm.

TTRPGs. I was like, Oh, I don't I don't have a budget for this and I don't need one. Like, as long as I can use the right words and maybe the right music, I can transport people into a world that doesn't require CGI or, you know, props and effects and all that stuff. Yes. Yeah, exactly. And it's like I, you know, we could.

You don't need to have a saber effect on Premiere for After Effects, yeah.

I can run a space chase through a space station on a highway. You know what I mean? Like I can do that. I don't have to worry about whether it's going to look good or whether it's going to, you know, break the budget or anything. It's like, no, if I can think of it and I can get my players to invest in it, it's going to work.

Absolutely, I guess kind of going off the rails a little bit before I ask my next question is what drew you to sci-fi specifically? Like why what about sci-fi as a genre like calls to you as a creative?

It's funny because I actually sci-fi is a new thing for me. Like I've always I've always enjoyed Sci-fi, but I've always been far more into fantasy And like especially like modern fantasy where it's like, oh, it's the real world but with like a twist But because like I grew up like my dad was a huge Star Wars fan and a Star Trek fan and I never really Invested in those that much like I enjoyed them. I think I've maybe like seen

Hmm.

like three full episodes of Star Trek in my whole life. But it wasn't until I came across things like Firefly that really got me in when you start blending genres, because that's like a space western, right? Like you take a genre and you're just like, hey, here's a familiar thing, but it's in space and we're going to twist it and we're going to add aliens. We're going to add, you know, sci-fi elements to it. And that's when I was like, oh, cool. So like science fantasy exists.

Ooooo yeah.

So I can use all my favorite parts of fantasy and I can pull in like the possibilities of, you know, space travel and finding aliens and going to new planets and stuff like that. So it's like, this is like the best of all the worlds.

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Yeah, it's that kind of like exploratory element that like kind of inspires all that little like child like, oh my God, this is so cool.

Yeah.

Yeah. I like who didn't want like I feel like everyone at some point in time was like, I want to be an astronaut. Because space is like I feel like it's hard not to be enamored and intrigued by like the infinite void of space. Because like it could be anything and anything that we come up with, there's a very good chance that something is like that might exist out there because it is so unknown. Yeah.

Mm-hmm

So infinite, yeah. I love that. No, thank you for answering that. I definitely, I've had a similar relationship with sci-fi as like going from fantasy into sci-fi and like recognizing the value of it over time. So I really, I really appreciate that. So my second like consistent question that I ask is, what do you believe is the job of the game master, both at home and on an actual.

Yeah.

Oh, okay, that's good. I like that. I think it's... First and foremost, it's facilitating fun. Right? I strongly, strongly believe... And I tell this to everyone, anytime I talk to people, especially people who are not in the nerd hemisphere, where I'm like, oh yeah, I play... I always just say I play D&D because no one ever knows what the hell anything else is.

Hehehehe

Mm-hmm.

Yeah.

And they kind of like, they roll their eyes. I'm like, I promise you, if you had the right group, I strongly believe that everyone in the world would enjoy playing a TTRPG of some sort if they play with the right people. Because I know like, you know, anytime you're on Reddit or whatever, you read like these horror stories of like, GMs or players being absolutely horrible. And thankfully like when I got into it, I was playing, the reason we started was...

Absolutely.

we were getting into our 30s and it was harder to hang out. And so we were like, we need something to do every week to like keep being friends essentially. So like when we first started every Monday night, we got together and we had dinner together and we played Pathfinder. And it was great. So it holds a special, you know, part of me. And so I learned very early on that like,

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

That's so nice!

nothing really like you can prepare all you want. You can have the best story. You can have the best NPC voices and all that. But if your players aren't having fun, like if you and like if everyone isn't having fun, then there's no point in doing it. So I think GM first and foremost, and I think this goes across like home games, actual plays, whatever. If people aren't having fun, there's no point. Because if you're playing a home game and no one's having fun, it's like, why are you here? Like, why are you doing it? And if you're

Absolutely.

on an actual play and no one's having fun, people are gonna hear that and not be invested. Right, like if you can't get your players to invest, why would anyone take, you know, an hour or whatever to listen to an episode of people not having fun when there are so many great shows out there where people are having fun?

Yeah, I keep coming back to that. And this is the third episode that I've done and recorded and keep coming. It keeps coming back to this idea of like, you need to have fun because like, yeah, you can have the best technical skills. You can have the most talented people, but if you're not feeling it, that spark that people listen to actual plays and play TTRPGs for, if that's not there, no one cares.

Yeah.

Yeah, that's why I always like whenever I'm trying to like, other than promoting my own show, I always tell people to listen to like not another D&D podcast. I think that's one of the best examples of a really successful show where you can tell that they're having a fucking blast playing it. And you can tell it like they are actually friends. They're not just doing it because like we can make a podcast and make money or whatever, which I don't think anyone's ever said.

Hmm.

Yes, you know, podcast, a traditionally financially sound idea.

The lucrative business of TTRPG podcast. Whenever I talk about the big shows, I would send people more in that direction than I would ever send them in towards Critical Role. Because I feel like Critical Role is such a huge undertaking to just listen to one four-hour episode, whereas you could listen to the hour and a half or whatever the other shows are, and it's people having the best time with their friends.

I think that's the thing what like old school original critical role did really well is like it was just a recording of a bunch of friends playing around a table and that joy was palpable and that's what like kickstarted this whole actual play movement I think.

Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah, it was I would say it was probably that and then like Adventure Zone were probably like the two that really got everyone going. Like once people realized that like, oh, a bunch of idiots, a group like just started this as a joke, ended up making so many people cry by the end of that and including themselves. It's like that's kind of the beauty of TTRPG is like you start these campaigns like the most recent one that we did in our home campaign.

was we were playing through Paizo's Return of the Rune Lords. And my character concept was just like, I was a failed Gordon Ramsay-esque celebrity chef who ended up sleeping with a noble's daughter and then got banished from the town. And then, so now I'm just in this backwater town in an inn cooking and just giving up on life. And I was like, that's it. That's as far as I'm going. And...

By the end of it, we were so heavily invested in all of our characters and all these stupid character concepts we came up with are now just like... We were in it. We were so in it. And that's the beauty of it is you start so innocent, especially if you're fairly new. You start with these really basic or dumb ideas and then by the end of it, you're like... I'm this person.

Mm-hmm. Do you find that getting that commitment at a home game versus an actual play is different? Do you find that the level of investment that people have is different?

Yeah, because I mean, like when you're on an actual play, it's your job, right? Like it's the difference between I always like to compare it. Like if you're a musician, you don't play your guitar at home the same way you do on stage. Right. There's a there's a huge difference between performing and playing. And I think a good actual play finds a balance between the two of like the joy of the play and also the professionalism of being like, oh, this is work and I need to be invested. I need to be engaged. And

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

I'm working right now. Cause it would suck if, exactly, yeah. Like imagine you paid, you know, $4,000 for Taylor Swift concert tickets and then like she was just like texting or checking Instagram, like in the middle of the concert, you'd be pissed. And it's like, it's the same thing for like, you know, an actual play. It's like you, you're there, you're in it. And home games are a lot more casual. And I think a lot of people, especially GMs, who listen to actual plays.

Yeah, you don't have people on their phones, like, while you're recording.

Hahaha

or watch them, I think there's that hope that when they sit down, they're going to have, you know, your cast of your, your Brennan Lee Mulligans and your, your Matt Mercer's and you think it's going to be like this, this thing. And then when it's your friends making dick jokes for 30 minutes with, you know, a goblin they've kidnapped, you're like, okay, this is sure. And I think like a lot of people get frustrated, but like that's kind of, that's kind of the magic of a home game of just being like

Yeah.

It's you guys dicking around and having fun and playing, which is as adults, we don't get to do a whole lot. So like, let's play.

Yeah, we should. That's the whole point of this. With that idea, oh boy, I just had a great question. That's gone. It happens. Absolutely. Oh, yes, with prep. So with this idea of session zero, especially with your worlds all being homebrewed, you're not using settings, so you don't have to pay for rights or anything, because that's a whole other world. In.

Yeah.

Oh no! It'll come, it'll come. Yeah.

home brewing these settings, what level of collaboration do you go into making the world and making the characters with the players at a home game versus an actual play? Like is there a more collaborative element in one? Is there more of a railroad in another? What does that look like for you?

I think I approach it more or less the same. I think there's a little, I think I actually give or put a lot more effort in constructing things by myself in a home game, just because I know that like we talked about, there's going to be less focused engagement. So I want to make sure there's a lot more, a little bit more bones on the, you know, whatever we're doing. But for the actual play and like for a show,

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Um, I gave the guys an outline of the planets in the system and a rough idea of like what they're about in terms of like, that's the ice planet. And that's like more or less like all they got on one planet. It's like, that's the, the fiery planet that has a prison on it. And so I kept it really basic because I didn't really know what we would need when we got to those planets. Um, and I, I strongly believe, especially with home brewing, I think

the big problem a lot of people have when they homebrew, especially when they're like new to homebrewing, is they write like novels of stuff. And it's like, they know every cobblestone on the street and they know every brick in every building. And then when a player is like, oh, I wanna do this, like, oh, well, that's not there, sorry. Right? Like, and you've, people get so rigid in like all this detail that.

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ends up never serving the campaign or the players or the fun. So whenever I like. Introduce people, especially in a home game, I don't do it so much in the actual play because we're on a time limit and we kind of have to keep moving the story forward, but whenever I do something like that in a home game, the first thing I always do whenever they get to a new city is what do you guys want to do? And whatever they say, yep. You want to go to fighting pit? Absolutely.

Even if it's like you're in like a super ritzy, like high noble town Yeah, it might be a little harder to find an underground fighting pit, but you'll find it if you pass Yeah, if you succeed your checks your knowledge local or whatever checks. Yeah, you'll find it because then like now They're where they want to be and they give a shit Because if you just like say no actually, it's just one bar where your quest is. It's like

But it's gonna be there.

Mm-hmm.

get in there and then like, okay, well then I guess we're gonna go talk to the shadowy guy in the back of the bar drinking by himself. Cool. So it's like you just like I let players tell me what the story is. Like I know where I need to get them and I know what the quest hook is. But if they want to get it off of, you know, the weird librarian that they go and like, sure, I don't care who gives them the quest or who guides them in the right way. As long as you're going that way, I don't care. But like, yeah, if you want to spend a couple of minutes.

doing something weird somewhere that I didn't think about? Yeah, do it.

I really love that and I really, I think that makes a really interesting point about preparation and leaning too much on preparation versus improvising and kind of reacting to what your players give you. When you are prepping out these quest hooks and these characters, oh, hello camera. When you're prepping out these quest hooks and these, when you're prepping out these quest hooks and these characters, how much of a...

Hehehehe

personality do you give to these characters? Do you just have like a list or do you just have this in the back of your mind like alright whoever they show up I'm just gonna throw something there and you have your back catalog from all of the media you've consumed. Like where is the line there?

Um, if it's going to be a like plot centric character, I put a little bit more effort into, uh, the, the role they're going to play. Um, but if they're just like, like I said, if they're just dicking around and like going to places and like checking out places, because there are times like, uh, there's been a number of times where they've had to like investigate stuff in the show. And they might come up with a lead that they want to investigate that I never would have thought of.

and I've got to come up with an NPC on the fly. And I find that I, I find the best way to come up with an NPC on the fly is to wait for their first interaction and see how wild they are with that interaction. Like if they kick in the door and they accuse a dude of being hostile, I feel like you have two ways of going. You can either be like, hey, what the fuck are you doing? Relax or be so scared and play really timid and like just spill information out.

Mmm.

Mm-hmm.

Mmm.

And I feel like you I wait for their approach before I determine how that character is gonna react Because I find it gives me an opportunity to play into or against What they're doing because I feel like if I if I've already come up with an idea for a character Then what they do or how they start the interaction doesn't really matter and I want those things to matter

Hmm, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. Now, I guess with characters also when it comes to, how do you, when making these characters kind of on the fly, tie them back into the main narrative when they are kind of like that essential character that you didn't expect, like the librarian who they get the quest hook from, who maybe becomes a favorite NPC?

What does that process look like, maybe even after the episode when you're like, oh, this person's gonna become recurring.

Um, I, those are the, those are my favorite moments. So those are the, the moments that make GMing really, really fun because it's like, oh, okay, you've, you guys have given me a gift of a character that you care about. And I find that like, you talk to any GM and you'll know that like that character, that blacksmith dwarf with like the, you know, tragic backstory and pages and pages of lore, they're going to talk to him for like four seconds and then be like, oh, there's a gnome over there. Who's like sweeping the floor.

Mm-hmm.

that you make a silly voice for because you didn't really expect them to talk to him. And now that's the guy they care about. And you're like, great, cool, you've done all the heavy lifting for me because now you have a character that you're invested in? What else can I ask for? It's so hard to get people to give a shit about characters. So if you're going to latch on to something, yay, you better believe I'm going to bring them back. They're going to be a main part. And it's such a beautiful gift from a player to a GM.

to latch onto an NPC. Because then you're like, great, you guys now have emotional stakes in a character, so if you guys aren't taking the quest bait, uh-oh, Librarian got kidnapped, or Librarian has fallen ill, or she's starting to have visions, or you know what I mean? It's like, now you might have a better motivation to go do whatever you're avoiding doing, because the character that you've told me you care about.

Hahaha

is now feeling repercussions of it.

That is the benefit of being God. You're like, oh, I actually get to decide where this ties back now.

Yeah. And if you give me, if you tell me you care about a character, you better believe I'm going to do something good or bad to that character. Something's yeah, something's going to happen to that character.

Something, something that's gonna make you care.

So you were mentioning before about pacing, especially with your show, you have very consumable, like one hour, hour and a half long episodes. How do you, as opposed to at a home game where home games can run anywhere from three hours to I've been in 12 hour long sessions before, how do you as the GM manage that pacing for an actual play versus a home game? What does that look like the deft hand of pacing?

Yeah, yeah.

It's tough. It's one of the things that I find the most difficult for a show because we like to also leave it on a cliffhanger every episode. Unless it's sort of like the end of an arc where we can sort of like button it with like a nice moment of being like, oh, here's some resolution and what we're looking forward going like into the next arc or whatever. I try to always leave it on a like a big moment.

Uh, so trying to, I try to work backwards. I try to figure out where I want the episode to end and the best way, uh, to sort of like get them there. And then I work backwards and I cut and add as I need. So I always have like an extra encounter where if they're just blasting through everything, I can throw an encounter in to, to pad it out. Um, but then I also have things.

Hmm

Like I have an encounter in that isn't sort of like really plot essential. I can just take it out and no one will ever know because it's, it's not, no one's going to be like, oh, it's weird that he didn't fight the big monster. That was just, it's weird that he just kind of like went to sleep or wandered away. Um, so I try to, I try to like work backwards and then, um, I try to over prep as well. So I have, I have the beats of sort of like roughly where they need to be.

Mm-hmm.

Hehehehehehe

at like the 30 minute mark and at the 45 minute mark and at the hour mark, this is roughly where they need to be in order for me to get where I'm trying to go. And sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Like really early on in the show, I had a like a car chase that was meant to be like a couple skill checks, like a couple dice rolls and like, yeah, you did it. And they just beefed it so hard. Like every roll was so bad.

and they were making stupid decisions. And this like, essentially supposed to be maybe like 15, 20 minute sequence ended up taking up the rest of the episode and like half of the next episode. But in my opinion, it's one of the best parts of this. It's like one of my favorite scenes in the show. And it happened really early on. And I was really happy with it because I was like, oh, this is a great sort of like flavor of what you're going to get in this show of.

I'm going to let their dice ride or dice rolls ride. I'm not going to be like, oh, well, you're OK. It's like, no, if you beef it, you're going to have to deal with those consequences. And I'm not going to flub whether or not you succeed or not. Like I had in that scenario, they're running away from like the police. I had a loose case scenario where they go to prison. Which thankfully they didn't because I didn't want to go that way. But if they if it did, I would have to.

Mmm.

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Yeah, you gotta kinda follow with, especially with something like DICE with TTRPGs, they're just gonna do whatever they want and that's the cool little spark of actual play is that you're like giving over control to someone else.

Yeah.

Yeah, especially because like it's not like a home game where you can spend, you know, four hours just kind of doing nothing like that. That can be fun in a home game, but in a actual play, if you spend, you know, three or four episodes not doing anything, I don't think, unless you guys are the best, like improvvers and are absolutely hilarious and your chemistry is great. Uh, I don't think it would be very good, but

I think, yeah, I think it's important to let the dice be as they are and let it shape the show. And it definitely has. There have been some pretty gnarly ones and pretty great 20s in the show that I've, like drastically, I've had to be like, well, okay, back to the drawing board because we're, yeah, we're going to have to figure it out.

All my plans, they're gone. I really also like the idea of working backwards. I haven't actually ever heard anyone say that they prep sessions like that before. And that makes a lot of sense, especially coming from a writing background. Uh, like definitely whenever I hear people work on scripts or work on novels or short stories, they're like, I have this idea of where this ends and working backwards from that, you get this realized it was a revelation of like, Oh, this is what's going to be important to get to that point.

And bringing that into the actual play space makes a lot of sense.

Yeah, I mean, because also like when you're playing a home game is especially if you're playing like in person or with maps and you're not doing theater of the mind. If you're in a dungeon and you realize that you're in like you've only made it like four rooms in and there's still, you know, a whole swath of stuff you haven't discovered. And you're like, oh, wait, we're at the boss right now. Like, that's weird.

But when we were doing Theater of the Mind, the guys don't know how big the facility they're in or the space station they're in. So they don't know that the boss isn't right there. And all I have to do is sort of tailor the next room they walk into is big and scary, or they've come across a big ornate gate. And it's like, oh great, okay, we've come somewhere important. And they have no idea that I had four or five more rooms or challenges planned. They don't know.

Yeah, I think that also speaks to the ability of flexibility and something that actual play does maybe not better, but differently than home games in that like you have so much more control as the game master to make the world flexible. And I think that's really interesting.

Yeah.

Yeah, for sure.

So especially with a genre like sci-fi, there's a specific tone that you kind of want to evoke with a space opera, but definitely with an actual play, it's a bit of a lighter tone than maybe you would be able to get into at a home game, or a heavier tone rather than you'd be able to get into a home game because, or actually that's a great question. Do you find that the tone is different at a home game versus an actual play because it's a safer space not being observed at home?

I would say the opposite. I think in the actual play, there have been some moments, especially so the episode that's coming out next week as of when we're recording this, we actually recorded in person. It was the first time we ever played in person for the show because one of our guys is in Halifax. So we always record remotely. Like it gets emotional. And like one of our, like I almost got one of our players like on the verge of tears at one point.

And I don't know if I've ever gotten there in a home game because I don't know if we've ever sort of like dropped into performance as much, right? Like it's a lot more play and a lot less performance. And when you're performing and when you're really sort of like in it, it's easier to be affected by it. And like, so we've had some like really as fun as the show is and as much we do keep it light. And it is like a, for the most part, like a fun action adventure show.

Hmm

There's a lot of heavy moments that the guys, and I'm really, really impressed with, and I'm really proud of the guys for committing to. And I've been blown away, especially because only one of them, only Ryan, really comes from a performance background. Niall and Terry don't really have a theater or acting background, and the things that they've done and have trusted me with has been really, really nice, and really, I'm so proud of them.

for what they've sort of committed to in their characters.

How do you build that trust when you're going to be making something for production as opposed to like you have a level of trust at a home game where you're like, oh, we're all friends, we're getting together because we're friends. That transfers over a bit into an actual play. But how do you build that trust before you start recording?

Yeah.

Session zeros are a huge thing, right? Like going through what they're comfortable with, what they're not comfortable with. I remember, like one of the questions I like to ask is like, are you cool with romance? Because some people, like some people just don't want to do, like it's weird. They don't want to role play romance with their friend. And like that's a hundred percent valid and I'm cool with it. And I remember doing it. And I remember Terry being like, I'm okay with romance. And I was like, all right, Terry. So.

Hahaha

So I threw this like, originally it was supposed to be just this sort of like woman on the space station who kind of had like a little crush on him. And he threw me a curve ball. And at one point in time, like after this like kind of awkward sort of conversation they have of like her being like kind of flirty and him being kind of dismissive and like uncomfortable, one of the other characters was like, oh, who's that? And he was just like, oh, that's my ex. I was like.

Okay, Terry, sure, great. Yeah, and it's like that wasn't something that we disguided. That wasn't something we like talked about. So with like one improv line, that character becomes so much more important. And originally she was just supposed to be in that one arc and now she's in the whole show. Like she's a recurring character that means something to him all because of that one line. And so I think it's a combination of like them trusting me as much as I trust them.

Brilliant, brilliant.

And it's like it's that really nice give-and-take of being like, okay, you're giving me that gift So I'm gonna give it when I when it matters. I'm gonna give it back and And I think it's a combination of like session zero for sure figure out what people are cool with figure out what they're comfortable with What's off limits? What's what they want to explore? Because again, one of our other characters Ryan who plays Merrick has like a

romantic and sexual relationship with a fairly pivotal character. I don't want to be giving any spoilers away. But he has like a, he has a pretty intense relationship with a character that is very, very important to the plot. And I'm glad that he has, like he trusted me with that because it adds so much to both of their characters where

No spoilers.

I have so much to play with and the audience gets like treats every time what like how involved they actually are is revealed. So that's that was something that I've really enjoyed as well.

I love that, yeah, I love the idea of trust needing to go both ways, that like the GM is just as much of this collaborative relationship as the players. Kind of rounding out, because we're nearing the end of our conversation here, I wanted to ask you the final question that I ask every GM that I bring on. What advice would you give to someone who wants to start DMing at home or moving from home into actual play?

Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Um, okay.

If you want to move into actual play, I would say. Invest in your gear. The better things sound, the more likely people are going to listen. There's a lot of actual plays out there and there's a lot of good actual plays out there. And if you're going to be throwing your hat in the ring, you need to be operating at like the highest level you possibly can. And.

Mmm.

you need to take like editing very seriously. I think those are those are the things like you need to think of it no longer as a game, but as a piece of media that is being consumed. Right. Like it's one thing to be playing lightsabers with your friends, with, you know, wrapping paper tubes and then going on a green screen stage and being, you know, Ian McGregor. Swing it a sword, right? Like you need to sort of like take on that persona being like, oh, I'm a professional now.

Mm-hmm.

Exactly, yeah.

reducing something that will be consumed hopefully by a lot of people and it needs to be the best product that I can put out while still somehow maintaining the magic of your home game. I think that's if you're not willing to do that if you think it's going to be as easy as like sitting down and then like playing a game for two hours and then putting that up raw. I don't think that's I think you're gonna have a very disheartening experience.

But if you're looking to like just get into DMing, I think the best thing to do is make sure that you're playing with people, especially for a first time, I don't think going to like a game store or like a convention space or something, because I find people that you feel comfortable with, find people that you feel safe with, because no matter how, I'm an extrovert, I will perform and do whatever.

But there's a level of nervousness of sitting down and being like, oh, I'm going to be a half-elf rogue for the next little bit, and I have to pretend like I'm not me. It's a weird thing to do with your friends for the first time. And then to be like, oh, I'm going to do that, but literally every other character as the DM, I'd be like, I'm going to be the damsel in distress. I'm going to be the small child. I'm going to be the goblin. I'm going to be the orc. I'm going to be the old mare.

That's a lot of hats to put on and it's it elevates the experience so much if you commit to it. And I'm not saying you have to do voices like you're not Matt Mercer. You're not Brendan Lee Mulligan. Yeah. So I don't think like don't hold yourself to those like standards. I think I think like going in and being like I'm going to you know break them or I'm going to make them cry or I'm going to do it. I think that's just going in like I said like we're talking about for fun. That's that's what you want. Your first session.

Mm-hmm.

needs to be fun. Because at the end, there's nothing there's like that. It's almost like sub drop, you know what I mean? Of like, after you finish jamming, be like, hey, that was shit. And I did a terrible job. And it's like, I feel that pretty much every time after the show being like, I like I missed this opportunity and did that and that. But then, you know, you talk to your buddies for the next like two minutes and they're like, that was awesome. This was such a cool part. That was such a cool part. And then you're like, Oh, okay. So

Mm-hmm.

Yeah

They don't think about any of the things that I missed. All they're thinking about is the cool shit they got to do that they wouldn't have been able to do if I wasn't moving the pieces around. So I think that's the really important thing about DMing is finding your group and your people wherever that may be. And like we found Terry on Reddit, like, yeah, we put a post out looking for a GM. And he was like, I just moved from Florida and I don't have any friends like

Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm.

Really?

I would love to hang out. We met him at a bar for some wings and the next week he came over to our friend's house and he jammed a fucking giant dragon battle for us and he's been like a brother ever since. So it's like, find your people wherever you can and however you can. Just make sure you're playing with the right people. And if the first session doesn't go great, don't feel like you have to stick with it if it's like a toxic or if it doesn't serve you.

I love that.

Move on and try again. Don't give up. Don't think that's how it's going to be forever. I think those are the big things that you need to focus on.

Yeah, I think that was beautiful. I really appreciate that answer. Where can people find NoQuest and where can people find you?

Yeah, so I am the daniac at the daniac on Twitter. That's a D A I N I A C. And then for no quest, you can find us like any podcasting app, no quest for the wicked. You can also find us at no quest cast on pretty much every social media and no quest cast.com for links to everything.

Amazing. Thank you so much for joining me today, Dane. This was awesome.

Thank you for having me.