Fast forward to February 2023 the expedition will have delivered ‘an approach to leadership that resonates with women'. This week we celebrate the expedition launch. In the huge global jigsaw, the expedition is only a tiny piece. But it’s a critical one.

Without it many of the other pieces will not achieve their potential. Because we need a mass of women the world over say ping “if that’s leadership, I’m in”.

When the expedition members meet together to work on the expedition collection - books, poems, music, film, talks,essays, paintings of every sort - we will be at Bellagio, guests of the Rockerfeller foundation on the shores of lake compo in northern Italy. What a glorious place to be together, thank you Deepali Khanna for your passion for the expedition and for making this happen.

In this podcast I also interview Jude Kelly who with WOW is one of the biggest jigsaw pieces, my first question is why will the success of our tiny jigsaw piece be so crucial. I also interview Jude because she is one of my oldest and most inspiring friends. I could not possibly launch and lead and expedition without Jude’s input

Julia Middleton 0:01

Julia Middleton 0:44

Speaker 1 2:33

This is the right moment for the expedition. Because we are at a moment on this planet where we need new solutions.

Speaker 2 2:42

In the way we have been operating as a society is not sustainable, we have very little time to make changes. And this is the moment.

Speaker 3 2:53

I think we've done the same thing over and over again for years and for centuries. And I think it's about time for change in leadership, for a new type of leadership that could take us out of the world that we found ourselves in.

Speaker 4 3:08

So much has happened in this world right now. And post pandemic, I feel that if not now, then when.

Speaker 5 3:15

We've just come out of an incredibly difficult and also life changing two years , I think as time after being locked up and isolated to rediscover the world with new eyes.

Speaker 6 3:27

The leadership narrative in the world today needs some overhauling, some serious editing, that's been far too long of not celebrating female leadership.

Speaker 7 3:39

As women, we want to make sure we're side by side with men to create this new world.

Speaker 8 3:45

It's time we think about fixing our world instead of fixing ourselves and fixing girls and fixing women.

Speaker 9 3:56

I think it's a very good time for the expedition. Because more than ever, we need togetherness and also not only followers, we need music makers and life makers.

Speaker 10 4:09

I don't think there is the right time to do this. And I think all the times the right time to do it. Because we cannot wait for the condition to be ideal because they will never be. And that's exactly why we have to do it now.

Speaker 11 4:25

I'm on the expedition because we can't waste the crisis. And what we do in the next two years is going to set the trajectory for the next 10.

Speaker 12 4:35

Because we have the momentum. The examples are all there, of incredible women and the opportunity to learn has never been greater.

Speaker 13 4:45

I want to be inspired. I want to draw on the strength of women who are doing incredible things. And I think that there is a power that I've only ever experienced in groups of women.

Speaker 14 4:58

Now is the right time to really think about how collectively as a woman leadership community, we could find the formula.

Speaker 15 5:07

I'm on the expedition because I want to find a way of leadership that resonates not just with women, but with everyone.

Speaker 16 5:14

I'm on this expedition, because there are many facets to the leadership of women. And I want to explore those with other women who come from very different cultural contexts to mine.

Speaker 17 5:32

Connecting women together, and connecting women with different cultural and social background can change the world.

Speaker 18 5:44

How healing and strengthening at is to be in the company of other women.

Speaker 19 5:50

You know, when our ancestors did it a lot, they had designated times where women got together and did their thing, and men did their thing. And I want to be involved in more of those experiences.

Speaker 21 6:04

Travelling with others will push us outside our comfort zones, both physically and mentally. And this is where the magic will happen.

Speaker 22 6:14

Definitely, it's a lonely journey. But it's a very rewarding journey at the same time. But you have to start, accept, first accept that you are in that journey. And I think that's a big moment for women.

Speaker 23 6:35

Please, please, please be a part of this. As I always say, no man, no one person, no one country is an island, there's so much to learn from one from one another. There's so much of your engagement of your wisdom that we need.

Speaker 24 6:55

There's no community without you. And collective knowledge is empowering, as your brothers and sister along.

Speaker 25 7:01

Need as many voices as possible from our generation to talk about leadership, the type of leadership that we want, that we want to work under the type of leadership that we want to be a part of.

Speaker 26 7:12

As women leaders who want to break down systems that have held a large majority of the population back, we can do this together.

Speaker 27 7:20

So make sure that you follow this expedition, because the time is right. The time is now, you will grow as a human being, you will grow as a leader, and we need your thoughts. We need your partnership, and we need you.

Julia Middleton 7:39

That's them. That's them, that you should have seen them on. On Saturday morning, the joy of being with them all. There was there was Hinemoa, who was lying in her bed at 4:30, in the morning, in New Zealand, who was looking totally great, totally sharp of mind, the only thing that reveal the time was the fact that she has a rather gruff voice. And then there was Anna, who read the most beautiful poem by David White called Santiago. Then there were matches and women who, who wanted me to plot out exactly what we're going to do on each on each meeting over the next few months. With me going, maybe. Let's see how we go. And being able to straddle this mixture of people who are delighted with the the sort of the expedition and what you're going to hit next mode. And the women who want a clear plan is going to be quite a challenge for me as a leader. And then there was there was a marvellous moment where Katrina that said she was going to talk to a friend who is a Buddhist nun in Nepal, who's a remarkable leader about leadership. And it was this look on 23 other women's faces of please, please, please, Katrina, take me with you. I want to hear what she says to. And then there was a moment when Uma, I asked her a question, she went hesitant and sort of said, I need to think and will he come back to me. And I thought, you know, there are 23 other women who are going to think that he was a bit sort of all over the place. I wonder why. And this made me laugh. Do not underestimate Uma, one of the most powerful and extraordinary leaders I know. She has a thing because unlike people like me, you just talk, Uma actually thinks before she talks. She was fantastic.

Julia Middleton 9:36

And then there was Lissa, who as you know, is our resident disrupter. And this is one of those people who might want to impress, she's kind of the person I've always wanted to impress all my life. And it was funny, because at the beginning when I talked to her about the expedition, I knew she was doing it because of curiosity and then there was a sort of for a period of amusement, and then definitely a period of scepticism, but now there's a sort of, ooh, this is great. So there's, there's no doubt Lissa is, I'm in. And then the fact that everybody wants to explore such different facets of the same question. You know, it was a diverse group from the beginning. But the diverse agendas is, completely fascinating. And then actually, I suddenly spotted Nandini, who was sort of around a corner of the screen looking unbelievably glamorous, because she was at the Cannes Film Festival, the the mere mixture, you should, yes, should have been there. But then again, you will be there because I get to make sure you're all there, as you listen to the podcast over the months.

So who the two women I get to interview on this launch podcast, one is Dipali. And the other one is Jude. Dipali because, Dipali has to be the person to interview because right from the very moment, the word expedition was used. She said, I'm in, I'm part of it. And she did it in a really practical way. She persuaded the Rockefeller Foundation, where she is a leader to offer us the use of Bellagio, that beautiful palace that's on Lake Como in Italy, that we can gather there in February 2023 all 24 women and work there on our collection. It's an extraordinary, peaceful and elegant and happy place a really extraordinary place where some great things have been launched over the years. And it's there that we're working on the collection, the books, the films, the plays, the essays, the paintings, the pieces of music, that that will form the collection of the expedition, and that we will share with you all completely open source in 2023. So that more women say if that's leadership, I'm in. But Dipali didn't just say yes, because of Rockefeller, she also said yes, because the expedition speaks to her own story, a powerful woman who has succeeded against all the odds on many occasions and has to fight hard for the power that she has. And I find her immensely inspiring.

I mean, for me, Julia, I just feel very frustrated, even now when I'm hearing the younger generation of women, I'm hearing their experiences are no different from mine. And I thought surely in the last three, four decades, we had made progress, but we haven't made significant progress. You know, I don't want to go into the statistics, we have all these statistics around women's leadership, you know, where and how women are being represented, not represented the tokenism that goes on how far we are around gender equality, even on the equity issues we are still struggling. So you know, equality is a tall order. So I think there's this real sense of urgency Julia, for some of us, including myself, there just like the moment to act was decades ago, and we haven't still been able to act effectively to really change the trajectory. So most importantly, what COVID has exposed the pandemic has exposed is the inequities that we already knew, it's facing us front and centre. We're looking at the climate crisis, who's going to be most affected, it's going to be the vulnerable young girls, women, who are going to bare the burden of it. So as women leaders, this is really a moment now for us to kind of really rally all our networks and our abilities to really see the kind of world that we want to be shaping together. So I think, you know, both from a long term perspective, and just seeing what we've gone through over the last two years, and the resilience that we have as women. I mean, Julia, that's been remarkable. But I think, what is this resilience going to really translate into where we can see more action for the many, many millions of women and young girls, you know, who obviously deserve a lot better than what they've deserved? What they've got so far.

It's interesting demands of young women over the last two years running women emerging from isolation, it has absolutely hit me how many young women say, I don't want anything to do with leadership. It does not, you know, you tell me to be authentic leader if I'm an authentic leader, I'm then hit over the head because I need to really be more like a male authentic leader. You know, it's sort of it's almost, if that's leadership, I'm out. And it's becoming increasingly the refrain of the expedition. How do we get young women to see if that's leadership, I'm in.

Exactly Julia and this is really an opportunity for us to kind of not get them to feel bashed up and say Uh, you know, I don't want to be an authentic leader, what does an authentic leader mean? And what does it mean for me? What are the kinds of values and principles I'm going to bring? And how am I going to be confronting the role models that have been set out there, you know, which are not helping us to kind of go past because this is tough, you know, I mean, like young women saying authentic leaders, if that's what it means I don't want to pursue it. I mean, that's really a wake up call, Julia. So all the more conviction that we need to really act in act now.

Is revolution, the right word?

I think, Julia, it is. I'm being provocative over here. I think we've seen how we've tried to evolve. And evolution hasn't helped us to get anywhere. I think this is a moment as well, where we can become more revolutionary, because we are, I mean, I just don't want to have another two decades where women are feeling just whatever's feeling four decades ago, like, that's not acceptable, Julia. And for that, you know, if you're just going to make incremental steps, I don't think you're going to be making significant changes. So I really, I really do feel it's time for a revolution,

Did you ever think you would become a revolutionary?

I think I'm always, Julia been a revolutionary in everything that I've tried to do. Because life has been tough. Being a girl child growing, growing up in India, you know, my own family, my father didn't accept me as a girl child, he brought me as up as a son. So there was constant revolution, just to kind of get accepted that hey i'm not a boy child, i'm a girl child and, you know, give me what I deserve as a girl child, as opposed to casting me. And then you know, my professional journey, you know, it was never a fair world out there, you know. I had to constantly be proving myself and you know, so I have been a revolutionary. And I think Julia, every woman who's part of your expedition, all the 24 women, in their own way, are revolutionary women.

When you look at tough journeys, I think it's weird, isn't it, because you know, that the tough journey has given you often humility, and often resilience, and often empathy. And I'm thinking of all of those miserable times in my childhood, and the good things that came out of them. And the things that I've drawn on. I remember meeting somebody when I was 19, who said, Julia, you can either make your childhood your weakness, or you can make it your strength and make sure that the rest of your life is never like that anymore. And you know, so it does, but it also leaves scars, doesn't it? Understanding the scars is very difficult. Has it not left you with scars?

Absolutely. Julia, it has left me with scars, and the healing of the scars, They surface again. I haven't been able to heal through those scars. So I think even in the expedition, Julia, if you can really spend time because I think again, it's an important exercise, you know, we all have scars of different sorts, whether it's our childhood, or whether it's adulthood, you know, just kind of creating that, that space, where we can talk about the scars and also learn from each other. Because I think some of us have been able to properly overcome this guys are kind of, you know, some of us are still in the healing process, or some of us are still in pain from the scars, you know, so I think that will be an important exercise. And yes, you know, there are moments when I do kind of go backwards, but, you know, again, the perseverance in us, you know, on one side, the humility, the resilience, and then of course, being the revolutionary that you have to be putting on that act of being very strong and, you know, forceful, and not aggressive, but assertive, etc. So it becomes counterintuitive to what you are, and you have to put on a lot of those things. So I think also, Julia, I constantly feel that, you know, many times I'm living in two different worlds, I have to adopt a particular style, like, you know, I mean, at times I don't even the home front, my husband will say well, you know, I'm not XYZ you're talking to, and you know, suddenly, I mean, like, yes, you know, I have to put on something on many occasions, which is not innate. It's not me. But you know, unless I do it that way, Julia, I'm not going to be able to really break some of those, those kind of shackles in which you know, things need to be done differently. So, I mean, the only way I could, you know, come to where I am in my own life is I have to assert mysely, Julia in every single situation. Nothing really came easy for me and it doesn't come easy for me So you know, that's the reality.

And that's why it's right that we're meeting at Bellagio, isn't it? Because it's a place of peace and of quiet and of distance and of calm and of beauty. But it's also a place where extraordinary things have happened over the years. And therefore we have almost no right to be there unless we do something extraordinary.

So Julia, extraordinary things have happened. You know, whether it was the field of artificial intelligence, impact investing, Gavi, I mean, all these important things got seeded, because we had these amazing leaders who came together, gave all their time over three days to really, you know, be able to reflect on the things that really matter to them most, and be able to come out from Bellagio with clear areas of work, that they thought were really going to be game changers, not just for them as individuals, but really are going to be game changers at a global level. So I think, you know, just in terms of expectations, Julia, I've just by the set of women that you have, I'm pretty sure that you know, we are going to really have something extraordinary and spectacular. So there's a lot of aspirations.

The pressure, the pressure is overwhelmingly on.

Julia, this is where women do so well. You know, I mean, we we constantly excel in everything that we do, we're constantly stretching ourselves, you know, and I think this is a topic so close, we do that even for the most boring topics, you don't mean always give our very best. So for this, that is something so dear to each one's heart, I think it's going to be pretty phenomenal what the expedition journey is going to kind of come out with. So I know there's pressure to there. But I think we're putting the pressure on the right set of actors, if you've taken so much of time and effort to really get the unusual women together who normally would not be in this journey together. So I think that in itself is going to trigger some very, very important conversations. And that whole discovery and that support system that you're creating through this journey is going to be very something to watch out for. And you know, it's truly going to be transformational, not just for these leaders, so but for many, many of us already watching, and really wanting to see how we can be playing our part to make this into, you know, offtake I don't think there's going to be an end of this expedition. The journey is gonna go on and go through various various phases. So how can we, you know, we're not part of that journey on a day to day basis, like the 24 women you've identified, but I very much feel part of that as well.

So Dipali is one of our followers. Hey, you're an amazing follower to have. She liked you. I know, when just subscribed to the podcast, she'll be supporting every step of the way, pushing us and sharing and shouting from the rooftops. Thank you. Thank you, I love you dearly, Deepali.

The second person I interviewed for this launch podcast had to be Jude, let me explain to you why. To me, it's really important to sort of figure out where the expedition fits in. And to me the expedition is only a tiny piece of the jigsaw puzzle. It's an enormous jigsaw. And, and this is only a tiny, tiny piece of that. So tiny, but critical to my mind, it's the missing one. It's it's the one that unless it is in place. Many of the other pieces will underperform because they won't have an approach to leadership that resonates with women. So I spoke to Jude for two reasons. One because she is the leader of one of the biggest of the pieces of Jigsaw women of the world. Wow! Which she started a few years ago. But also I chose Jude because she's one of my dearest and oldest friends. She has an extraordinary ability with words, one that has inspired me for years. And very often for me, she has put words what I am struggling to say. So I talked Jude about leadership. But I also started by asking Jude, what will the prize be when our expedition is successful? What will be a tiny piece of the jigsaw that we add? What will its impact be?

The prize is a different kind of world because it includes everybody in a different way. But I can see that it's already started to happen because I can see the fight back. You know the In the fight back from well, I don't like to call them strongmen because I think it's a weakness being a bully. But the you know, global bullies are unnerved and angry at a different kind of compassionate, thoughtful, layered leadership, and they don't want it. And they, they're using all kinds of methods to undermine it. So I guess all I can say, really, I think the prize is a better, much more inclusive, integrated, intersectional world. And I think we've got a long way to go to get it. And therefore it requires an expedition to have a lot of stamina, and to know that you are, you know, taking journey on a road that's extended back in history and will go forward in history a long, long way. But the prize is that the world is better. I'm aware that when I've met really great women who inspire other women, and inspire me, they have something in common, which is an acknowledgement of pain, they are somebody, who probably has been through, I wouldn't necessarily say trauma, although in some cases it is. But certainly obstacles, hard knocks, difficulties, and self searching. And that's something that you can access in them, they make that available, they have compassion, they have the kind of wisdom that comes out of recognising that people can't live with absolute certainty. And that gives them an empathy, without sentimentality. And I think that's the first thing I see in a great leader, which is the ability to self reflect on the scars, the scar tissues, if you'd like, and be open to re remembering those things. And going back to places of doubt, that's what I feel is the most important because to lead isn't to just work with an ideology. It's to recognise that the human condition needs support in a multitude of ways. And that that support is personal. It's not about a herd mentality. But you're giving support to each person to take their own journey. And so high emotional intelligence about other people and about themselves.

You know, when you sometimes you, you know one of these women terribly well, and you've sort of forget all of that, because you they've become such good friends to you. And then suddenly, you're in a situation, and you see them stand up and take leadership, and you go, wow, I'd forgotten just what a class act she is. What does she do at that point?

I think leaders taking the responsibility of performing. Now that sounds like a shallow thing to do.

No, that's beautiful.

But I think you know, that they gather up their energy. And they know that what is required of them is to, is to create a sort of energy zone. Because in a way, that's what performance does, and to make people feel that they are the cause or call to action, or the imperative, or the intensity of this moment, is there. And that's a kind of an excitement, and it's emotional. And it's, you know, it's, it's thrilling. And of course, it can be can also include humour, it can include shock, we know because sometimes it includes narratives that people just go, look, I have to tell you this, this is the story you must hear, or whatever, but they they summon up a particular kind of extra energy that I would say is performative. And even if that is a very intimate circumstance, they move to this kind of central space of energy, where they perform leadership. And I'm not suggesting by that, that it's a cosmetic act, you know, a shallow act, I'm saying it is a intensity of action. I am called a woman leader by others, and most of us have a version of imposter syndrome. Or another way to put it actually, is that most of us have a level of appropriate humility, where we wouldn't say, you know, we do this automatically for other people, but if they say, no, this is the impact you have on us, then you're grateful, and you'll carry on working towards being better at it. But you know, sometimes you see a great leader inspires you think, gosh, I wish I could be like that. So then when somebody says to you know, you are one of those, you think really, really, and I think that's a good thing that you you will never fully own a sense of being a great leader. Even if other people urge you to believe you are one, because this essential quality of self reflection and self doubt, in, in balance with confidence is a good thing, I think. But in terms of people feeling as if they are on their own journey to owning leadership and, and not shying away from it, because we need each other to be leaders, I think the most important thing is to look at all the areas in your reflection of yourself, where you experience shame, whether it be over actions that you've done, or things that happened to you, who you are in terms of background, things that people want you to be ashamed about, or traditionally society has made people feel ashamed about, and own those as the big kernels of wisdom about injustice, and bring them to the surface. Because, you know, it's not like being good at your exams, it's not being good orator. It's not being kind of a clever strategist, none of those things makes you a leader. I think understanding the fear of being a human makes you a good leader, and the things that society has trained people, groomed people to be fearful for, fearful about so that they, they step away from power instead of owning it. I think these are the things that leaders need to concentrate on. And, you know, it can be difficult. I mean, I remember my daughter is a writer, and I'm trying to write at the moment a book about my experiences in the arts as a woman. And she said, you know, you should write down the 10 things that you would be most frightened about people reading and then start with them. And she's right, really, because you know, the the urgency to find the real truth of your life, and then allow that to be revealed is what gives other people the courage to own who they are to. I talk a lot in leadership about unlearning. There's a reason why we have outmoded, and and I think terribly damaging ideas in the West of superiority, of white superiority, of Christian superiority, or even Western democratic superiority. I think that, you know, we have been told, that's our propaganda to ourselves, isn't it? That we are superior, and it narrows down our own emotional intelligence. So it has a hugely damaging effect on other people. And we don't go into dialogue normally, without a kind of sense that we need to just persuade somebody else that eventually they'll come around what we think because we're right, and that's a kind of a tone that the West sets for the rest of the world. So, you know, I think that the humility to start, again, is what we're talking about. It's not easy. How could it be? Again, there's just 1000s of years of this. And then there's another ingredient as well, I think it's theology and the way that theologies have been constructed, and written, have dominant ideas in them around the globe, that creates power structures and gender binaries, and that you have to come face to face with the rules of those written theologies, and challenge them. And I think people find that incredibly hard to do, because it feels heretical. But I don't see unless one challenges those, I don't think we will take a really deep next step at a global level.

How do you focus something on women without excluding men unhelpfully?

Well, I think the reason why so much of my work, and now your work is about women, is because we haven't been given the opportunity to explore leadership power, influence throughout history to an equal proportion as men, and I'm a white woman, so I've had more privileged than I would have had in these areas, if I was a black woman, or a woman of colour or disabled woman or a gay woman or a trans woman, I think that we are trying to allow people who have not had power to experience what power could look like if they had it, and some of us have got it. And to suggest that the command and control idea of power that has been the traditional male model is inappropriate to us, inappropriate, generally, to a modern world, maybe always was. And so I think we're looking at leadership models that allow people who have an internal dialogue suggesting that they're not appropriate leaders, which is all people who've been excluded. We have to break through that in a in a doubt, to allow them to come forward and be leaders. So you know that in itself is a very important thing, this inner dialogue that says it's not about me, or I'm not the right person, it finally I won't pass the test. And then it's also a critique of leadership as we know it. For people who have been on the receiving end of the way, power is distributed. And we asked of those people, and in our case, this happens to be women, to critique it in a way that when going forward, they'll operate leadership in a different way.

Who knows whether women per se would make different kinds of leaders? If they had had power for 1000s of years? Would they be any different than men?

You know, I don't know. Because power is corrupting, and exclusive power very corrupting. And I don't think you can rely on the idea that women are just naturally different and more compassionate and more just leaders. But what you can say is that people who have been excluded from power, have the capacity to know what it is like when power is like done to you. And that may give you some of the listening abilities and compassionate abilities that men have been encouraged not to have, make a commitment from the outset unconditionally, to be friends with each other. I've found it's really helpful if you just decide in advance that you will care and love people and decide they are your friends, regardless of whether they irritate you, or you're not sure about the whatever this unconditional commitment to be a friend, somebody that I journey with you think will be really rewarding, because if you think about your own long standing friends, you sort of take them with all their, you know, idiosyncrasies and weirdnesses. And, you know, irritating facts like you do with your family, but it's unconditional. That's just the way that you create long term friendship. When you're going into an expedition like this, you know, people are nervous, and they are territorial, and they've got boundaries, and etc. It's much easier if you give away all of those things, as if everybody already was your long term friend, because then when they are irritating, and we all will be, you can kind of just forget it, forget it. So I would say the most important thing out of this journey will be the friendship with everybody, and how you can carry on then co learning for years hopefully.

The prospect of unconditional long term friendship, and co-learning for years, with the 24 women and with the 1000s of followers is utterly joyful. Thank you, Jude.

So our expedition is launched, 18 months it has been in the making, and I'm now committed to the next nine months of expeditioning. I am very, very, very excited.

Thank you for listening to the podcast. We would love you to follow the expedition and provide your own stories and perspectives. You can do this by subscribing to this podcast and joining the Women Emerging group on LinkedIn where you can have your say.