Shownotes
Welcome to Works In Process / Ep 34
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In this episode of Works In Process, host George Garrastegui Jr. announces the podcast's evolution toward a thematic season focused on bridging the gap between academic education and the creative industry.
Recorded live at the One Club for Creativity's Educators Summit, the episode features a discussion with a panel of experts, including researcher and strategist Or Szyflingier, senior design manager Sabrina Hall, and creative director José López-Sánchez.
They explore the importance of 'durable skills,' such as communication, teamwork, and self-advocacy, that emerging creatives need to thrive in the professional world. The panel also shares insights on effective teaching methodologies, inclusive curricula, dealing with failure, and the significance of show-and-tell activities to develop these essential skills. The episode aims to equip educators and emerging creatives with the knowledge and tools required for a successful transition from academia to industry.
Enjoy!
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Key Takeaways:
- Durable Skills Focus: The podcast shifts to emphasize durable skills essential for industry success, such as communication, self-advocacy, and teamwork, over traditional technical skills.
- Inclusive Education: Encourage incorporating diverse voices and perspectives within educational curricula to prepare students for a globalized and inclusive professional environment.
- Real-World Simulations: Implement methodologies that recreate workplace dynamics in educational settings to better prepare students for their future careers.
- Reframing of Failure: Students should learn that setbacks are part of the learning process and provide valuable insights, rather than viewing them as definitive failures.
- Collaborative Learning: Promote peer interactions and discussions to understand diverse perspectives and enhance collaborative problem-solving skills.
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Credits
- Editor: RJ Basilio
- Research and Transcription Reviewer: Or Syzflingier and Stephanie Erazo
- Intro / Outro Music: The System Has Failed Us - The Passion HiFi
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Like what you just heard? Support the process and rate us on Apple Podcast and Spotify!
About the Works in Process Podcast:
A podcast series by George Garrastegui, Jr. — designer, educator, and curator. Works In Process is a collection of discussions that explore the creative process. I interview individuals to gain more insight into the ways they work and the projects they produce.
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Transcripts
Hey, what's up everyone?
Speaker A:Welcome back to Works in Process, the podcast about uncovering creative methodologies from people doing inspiring work.
Speaker A:I know it's been a minute, and that's because we've been busy on our sides of the mic.
Speaker A:I am designer and educator George Garaske Jr. And my goal has always been to make this podcast a resource and a reference for educators and of course, for emerging creatives.
Speaker A:To achieve this, we've taken some time to conduct research, reexamine previous episodes, and we are restructuring the Works in Process podcast for the first time since we began.
Speaker A:For this next stage of the podcast, Works in Process will be focusing on our first thematic season.
Speaker A:Our research has led us to explore the hidden talents that emerging creatives need to translate from a learning environment to the creative industry.
Speaker A:We are honing in on that crucial subject of durable skills and what it truly takes to not only land a job, but to keep it.
Speaker A: itioning was Showcased at the: Speaker A:What you're about to hear is the beta episode for this new season, a live recording from that One Club event.
Speaker A:Please note it's slightly different than our usual format.
Speaker A:It features multiple speakers, but we're sharing it with the understanding that we're looking to make the podcast both entertaining, informative and resourceful for every listener.
Speaker A:We hope you enjoy this new episode and more importantly, we hope you can take something tangible away from it as we expand our knowledge base and continue this evolution.
Speaker A:If you're interested in on being on an episode or have a specific topic that you think we should actually focus on, please reach out now.
Speaker A:Let's get to it and hope you enjoy it.
Speaker A:Take care.
Speaker B:Welcome to the podcast portion of our programming.
Speaker B:Today we're gonna look at having a conversation about our students ability to advocate for themselves and evolve their soft skills into more appropriate, durable skills.
Speaker B:Moving beyond the technical and building up their interpersonal skills.
Speaker B:Not only required to land a job, but to keep it.
Speaker B:Before we get into it, I'd like to introduce myself and the panel we have here for the One Club for the Creativity's Educator Summit.
Speaker B:Hello, my name is George Garastegi Jr. A designer, assistant professor and the Chair of Communication Design at City Tech in Brooklyn.
Speaker B:Alongside me is my researcher and strategist Or Schifflinger, a recent graduate from the Branding and Integrated Communications program at City College, cuny.
Speaker B:We also have Sabrina Hall.
Speaker B:She's a senior project design manager at Etsy, where she guides teams to create impactful product experiences.
Speaker B:And she's been an adjunct professor at City Tech, a co chair of the AIGA's NYC Mentoring Program, and has spoken at the NYC Awards Conference.
Speaker B:Sabrina is a proud Bronx native and currently resides upstate.
Speaker B:And finally, we have Jose Lopez Sanchez, a Brooklyn based group creative director at Edelman.
Speaker B:He has worked on a wide range of clients throughout his career, from software to meat sticks.
Speaker B:Yes, you heard me.
Speaker B:Meat sticks.
Speaker B:But his proudest moment remains doing a voiceover for a fake cologne commercial.
Speaker B:So, unbeknownst to you, I usually do something at the beginning of every episode that I have.
Speaker B:It's an icebreaker to get a conversation started.
Speaker B:And why should this episode be any different?
Speaker B:Are you ready?
Speaker B:So I'm gonna give you just a series of this or that questions to get you all loose.
Speaker B:Coffee or tea?
Speaker C:Coffee.
Speaker B:Toast or a bagel?
Speaker D:Bagel.
Speaker C:Toast.
Speaker B:Jose's mic is not working.
Speaker E:One, one, one.
Speaker E:Okay.
Speaker E:Yes.
Speaker E:Toast.
Speaker B:Graphic design or advertising?
Speaker D:Ah, damn it.
Speaker D:Graphic design.
Speaker C:Graphic design.
Speaker C:All day.
Speaker E:Advertising.
Speaker B:Mentoring or managing?
Speaker D:Mentoring?
Speaker E:Both.
Speaker B:Because I do both.
Speaker C:Mentoring.
Speaker C:Mentoring.
Speaker E:I think both are difficult, but mentoring feels more rewarding.
Speaker B:And last.
Speaker B:Research or intuition?
Speaker D:You know it.
Speaker D:Research.
Speaker C:Vibes.
Speaker C:Intuition.
Speaker E:Intuition.
Speaker B:Cool.
Speaker B:So I just did that because I always do that to kind of get our guests comfortable, right?
Speaker B:So they don't know what they're really going to talk about.
Speaker B:And instead of just being knowing what a script is and things like that, kind of throw them off their guard a little bit.
Speaker B:But for the past eight years, I've hosted and curated the Works in Process podcast.
Speaker B:I've been having conversations that you wish you had, exploring challenges, techniques and methodologies of being a creative with designers, educators, artists, and more.
Speaker B:With over 40 episodes, we featured insights from some amazing people such as artist and designer Rich Tu, cultural historian she Holmes Miller, creative entrepreneur Armin Vit, and even Smithsonian inductee Maurice Cherry.
Speaker B:What started as a peek into the inner workings of what it's like to be a creative has also become a way for our listeners to see themselves in the stories that people we interview.
Speaker B:Recently, we noticed though, our show needs to evolve.
Speaker B:As an educator, my goal has always been to share real life experiences that can help students, especially emerging creatives, find their inspiration, stay relevant, and keep their skills sharp.
Speaker B:So we took a year to revisit old episodes, identify key moments, and ask ourselves what insights truly add value for students and educators alike.
Speaker B:How can a podcast be more than just a listening experience and a resource for emerging creatives and for educators?
Speaker B:So Today's conversation is inspired by research from the Works in Process podcast.
Speaker B:As we're on a mission to bridge the gap between design education and and industry expectations, we're diving into this critical, soft or rather durable skills needed for creative success.
Speaker B:And now or take it away.
Speaker D:Thank you, George.
Speaker D:So before we start, I would like to start with a little moment that happened and I think a lot of you can relate.
Speaker D:So when I finished my undergrad school, I thought I've done everything right.
Speaker D:I worked on my portfolio, I polished the mock ups, I got the insights, I made sure everything is perfect as well as I thought.
Speaker D:But no one really prepared me to what happens after the interview once you get into the door, right like now, nobody told me how to deal with critique that is now in a group setting or how to speak up when your point of view is a little bit different than the rest of the room.
Speaker D:And how to advocate for myself when sometimes again, you're just starting and you're comparing yourself to people who have been out there already and you're not feeling as best as you could be.
Speaker D:So we started to ask what, like, am I the only one, right?
Speaker D:Am I the only one?
Speaker D:I ask other friends, I ask other creatives in the industry, I ask professors.
Speaker D:And I realized that I am not alone.
Speaker D:And it was a really great opportunity for me to really take it to my grad school.
Speaker D:So working on my thesis paper in my grad school and again, along with the work in the Works in Process podcast with George right here, we really wanted to figure out what are the gaps that we are seeing between design education and industry expectations.
Speaker D:And we reassess a lot of the episodes that we have done before with the guests that you heard.
Speaker D:And one thing that really helped us is that we created a survey where we got 130 responses from creatives.
Speaker D:And for our demographics, we didn't just use students and professionals, so we made sure that we're using emerging creatives.
Speaker D:Meaning emerging creatives can be students that have experience maybe a year or two even as an internship, or maybe they do work in the industry, maybe they're self taught and they didn't go to school.
Speaker D:There is different ways to get to the industry and to the field.
Speaker D:Maybe they are just literally starting their career.
Speaker D:And then we have the employed creatives who are already working in the field, already been there for at least a couple of years or so.
Speaker D:And one thing that it was really interesting where we found out is from the emerging creatives, a lot of them were struggling to, to communicate Their ideas.
Speaker D:Clearly a lot of them were afraid to ask questions when they didn't understand because of fear of looking unprepared.
Speaker D:Or maybe people think that they don't have the right skills.
Speaker D:A lot of them did not feel confident to go networking, which I'm sure a lot of us still don't, but it happens.
Speaker D:And again, many of them said that dealing with low self confidence got in the way of them collaborating with others.
Speaker D:And we heard this before, especially as students, when you go to college, you are put in a group where you don't necessarily like everyone.
Speaker D:That's life.
Speaker D:Some people are louder than the others, some people are more quiet than the others.
Speaker D:And when there is a conflict, it somehow always resort by, let's ask the professor.
Speaker D:Like the professor will give the solution.
Speaker D:But in real life it doesn't work this way.
Speaker D:So I was not surprised that when we interviewed the employed creatives, they were feeling the same thing.
Speaker D:50% of them said that they were not ready to collaborate with others or even talk to the client when they started a job.
Speaker D:They said that they did not know how to deal with feedback until they already got the job.
Speaker D:And they really pointed out to the fact that nobody helped them to learn interpersonal skills before they got the job.
Speaker D:So yes, we are learning those skills, but we are learning them a little too late.
Speaker D:And a lot of you may know those skills as soft skills, but soft skills is kind of outdated nowadays.
Speaker D:We're using durable skills because those are the skills that are transferable and they're here for the long run.
Speaker D:Those are the skills that will get you to the door, but not just get you to the door.
Speaker D:They will actually shut the door behind you and make sure that you stay there and you're learning.
Speaker D:So again, durable skills are like collaboration, feedback, everything that we literally talked about today, how to communicate with others.
Speaker D:This is exactly what brings us here today.
Speaker D:And we want to talk to the experts in the room right now.
Speaker D:And I guess our first question that I have for you is that Jose and Sabrina, when you're hiring new creatives, emerging creatives, what are the gaps that stand out to you the most?
Speaker D:Or what knowledge do you wish emerging creatives will come to you with?
Speaker C:Yeah.
Speaker C:So I think this is such a great topic.
Speaker C:I think one of the gaps that I continuously observe is the ability to speak to their work with confidence and understanding.
Speaker C:The complexity of what they're showing and what that can look like is, have you thought about all of the divergent ideas and different solutions that you can present?
Speaker C:Have you thought about the folks who are in the margins, but this could still have a negative impact.
Speaker C:Impact on and really having inclusive design solutions in their work.
Speaker C:For the second part, I think what I'm looking for when I'm looking for looking at portfolios and meeting new creatives is understanding are they trying to solve a problem, even if it's one that they've only done the research with a handful of folks and they're just trying to learn more about the topic, but have they dug in really deep into it?
Speaker C:Do they have conviction around the work?
Speaker C:And how are they drawing inspiration from what's been done before?
Speaker C:And also making something new, necessarily looking for a duplicate of, you know, a certain type of poster or a duplicate of a certain type of app.
Speaker C:I'm looking for someone to bring their own ideas to the forefront.
Speaker B:Or can you share a little bit more about your research?
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:As a recent grad and a member of the audience that you did research, you're in a perfect position to advocate for your fellow emerging creatives.
Speaker B:What types of projects are emerging creatives like yourself most interested in?
Speaker B:Or actually what do they feel they need the most support in?
Speaker D:Okay, so, yes, that's very interesting because we did, when we've been talking about critique today, we heard so much about, like, when you ask your students, right, like, how would you like your feedback today?
Speaker D:Or your critique if it's like level one, two or three?
Speaker D:Actually, based on our research and based on my own personal experience, critique can actually be written and it can be vocal, and it's not the same thing.
Speaker D:And I've seen students and colleagues today that are just using copilot, right?
Speaker D:Like to record the conversation with the creative director.
Speaker D:And then they're asking like, oh, what is my task for today?
Speaker D:Right?
Speaker D:Cause that's easier.
Speaker D:But those are like skills that we need because sometimes you don't get the written, sometimes you get only written.
Speaker D:But those, again, what kind of feedback do we need?
Speaker D:So we need to learn how to deal with both types.
Speaker D:That's one of the main things that I think, as you said, also not to take it personally, right?
Speaker D:Like, okay, it happens, but you need to explain, like, a lot of times students and emerging creatives are being told, don't take it personally.
Speaker D:What does that mean?
Speaker D:You know, I've been working on it for like, I don't know, five weeks now.
Speaker D:You're telling me not to take it personal, you know, so it's like, okay, there is an explanation to that, right?
Speaker D:We need to know, especially again, when you're starting to that in agency, you do have a budget, right?
Speaker D:Students don't think about budget when they're working on their projects.
Speaker D:You do have.
Speaker D:And by the way, students should have budget even when you're printing.
Speaker D:Right?
Speaker D:But it comes down to the budget.
Speaker D:It comes down to the time.
Speaker D:Maybe students have a great idea, but it takes so long.
Speaker D:And you're like, okay, don't take it personally, but this project is not good.
Speaker D:Next.
Speaker D:And it's like, okay, can you explain to me again what is happening?
Speaker D:So I think a lot of things that are like, known for us as educators are not known for emerging creatives, especially in a classroom.
Speaker B:I mean, it's hard, it's hard to start to think about how to differentiate.
Speaker B:But also remember what you were like when you were a student and didn't know what they were trying to do.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:We talked about what kind of memories you had when you're talking about education and things like that.
Speaker B:It may be good professors, bad professors, things like that, right?
Speaker B:My best professor was the one who gave me the worst feedback, but it was all with the intention of knowing that I was going to do better.
Speaker D:You're right.
Speaker D:Another thing is that especially students, again, and there is self thought, but especially students are afraid to fail them.
Speaker D:Creating that one design that you're telling them like, oh, it's not as good as it could be.
Speaker D:It's like, oh, am I getting a bad grade now?
Speaker D:It's the feeling of failure.
Speaker D:Failure is really daunting.
Speaker D:And knowing that it's not a failure to receive certain feedback, or it's not a failure to make five drafts and only one gets picked, that's fine.
Speaker D:That's reality.
Speaker D:Even photographers, they take 300 pictures and then at the end you only pick one or two, right?
Speaker D:For the editorial magazine or the COVID right?
Speaker D:So again, like under teaching students that it's okay to fail and what's the meaning of it?
Speaker D:It's not really failing, it's trying out.
Speaker D:This is how you learn.
Speaker D:And we all know this because we have done this.
Speaker D:But again, emerging creatives don't.
Speaker D:And this is the first time that they are facing this type of stuff.
Speaker D:And this is my own personal experience.
Speaker D:And again, from the research that we have done.
Speaker D:So it's me and 130 people behind me, right?
Speaker B:And the idea of failing needs to be reframed.
Speaker B:I touched on this in a conversation with itch 2, which is in, you know, our podcast.
Speaker B:But failing for students means a grade, right?
Speaker B:For them, failing is, I'm gonna get An F. And this means I'm not gonna move forward and things like that.
Speaker B:But as or mentioned, failing just means this is the direction which I should no longer go.
Speaker B:And then I can reframe and move on to this next thing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:When you get burned on the stove, you learn not to put your hand back on the stove, but you learn to do that because you know, oh, that's not good.
Speaker B:And so I think failing is just that, how to reframe these ideas and learning where not to go so that you actually can focus on where you need to.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:And as we throughout the summit these last two days, a lot of presenters, even yesterday, with the age of all technology, were bringing up empathy and humanness.
Speaker B:I think that was a really big thing considering what the topic was on technology yesterday.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:But Sabrina, you know, we've talked a little bit.
Speaker B:You touched on it.
Speaker B:Inclusive design requires also inclusive teaching.
Speaker B:How can an educator, how can educators actually in the room and the ones listening help support the types of problems that resonate with this next generation of creatives?
Speaker C:So I think that in terms of inclusive teaching, it really involves looking at, so looking at the curriculum to understand, am I building an inclusive curriculum?
Speaker C:And that includes the voices of indigenous creatives from creatives who are from the LGBTQ field, from creatives who are gender non conforming, from black, from Latina creatives.
Speaker C:So I think a big part of that is really saying, am I looking at the sources of the work that I'm sharing in a full holistic lens?
Speaker C:I think that's a real true critical part of the process in terms of being inclusive and then also understanding, even as we're critiquing work, am I critiquing work from the lens of the problem they have to solve or what I think only looks good because I prefer a Bauhaus style.
Speaker C:So I think we also have to identify when we're critiquing work, what are we doing kind of in service for the students in terms of the feedback that is going to be most helpful for them and really thinking inclusively of everything, even the language that we're using to critique the work and how we're giving that feedback.
Speaker C:Feedback.
Speaker C:I think there's an ability to really dig deeper there in terms of how we share that feedback.
Speaker B:Thank you.
Speaker B:I agree.
Speaker B:I mean, I think one of our jobs is to understand and be empathetic with other people and understanding ways of feedback, ways of research, ways of understanding where our students are coming from so that we can learn how to talk to them, be empathetic with them and also teach them from a place of kind of unknowing.
Speaker B:Right.
Speaker B:I think one of the best things we can do as an educator is not not know.
Speaker B:And I know that's really weird, but I think in some of the things that we're focusing on, our students are better knowledgeable about things that they're dealing with than we are.
Speaker B:And if we come at it with a place of we think we're better, smarter and more understanding, then we're never going to understand our students.
Speaker B:We have to actually kind of come at it the other way where they're actually teaching us something.
Speaker B:And I think to do that is very humbling though, as an educator to be in front of the room to talk to people and not have command of the audience because that's not your knowledge base.
Speaker B:Maybe the students in the room have a better working knowledge of what's happening down the block because that's where they're from.
Speaker B:How do you tell them that no, this should look like that way when for 15 years they're like, no, this is how it is.
Speaker B:So you know, it is something where it's a reflexive moment to kind of not only be that person who coming from a sense of knowledge, but also learning.
Speaker B:And so, you know, Jose, we're talking about also humanness and things, but you know, we still have to teach technical skills.
Speaker B:They have to have fluency alongside their critical thinking.
Speaker B:Are there workflows and hacks that can make the classroom resemble a conference room while still being supportive and nurturing for learning?
Speaker E:That's a good question.
Speaker E:I mean, a lot of it is how you orient the space.
Speaker E:I mean, this is so basic.
Speaker E:But again, it's like how are we setting people up to feel like they're able to have a dialogue and a conversation and not necessarily focused on the one point of universal truth.
Speaker E:I know that as educators, to your point, we are leading them, but also trying to be receptive to new ways of thinking.
Speaker E:I've found that dialogue, Socratic discussion method rooms, at least for specific subjects, is a really good environment to foster sort of an equal, equitable conversation and playing field that tends to lead to better strengthening of ideas and discussion of topics and and learning in multi directional modalities.
Speaker E:Besides that, just thinking about like the actual process, something you said was really resonant with me, which is the idea of like encouraging the students to share what it is that's exciting them or what they're learning about the outside world, whether that's like a new technology or just a new way of language, or just something that's got them really, really passionate about.
Speaker E:And then asking them to share why they care about this thing, like, why is this thing that you're watching or this video game you're playing so riveting and so engaging to you?
Speaker E:And what can we have in a group setting for.
Speaker E:For each of you to articulate what it is you're passionate about and why you're passionate about it, and give me, like, the reasons and tell me, like, a story as to why I should care.
Speaker E:And I found that to be something that reveals a lot about new technologies, new modalities of communication, and just emerging trends in culture that lends to, again, all the other durable skills around the work that need to be developed.
Speaker C:Another thing.
Speaker D:Oh, sorry.
Speaker C:Another thing to add to that.
Speaker C:Just like, plus plus, you can also structure things in the format of what they're like, in the workspace.
Speaker C:So that might be like, when you're presenting your advertising work, did you present it and have your own creative brief?
Speaker C:Can you write a creative brief or write a prd, which is a product description requirement deck?
Speaker C:Can you say, okay, even if you only did research and asked three questions and spoke to three people, can you write a how might we statement?
Speaker C:So I think there are tactical ways that when they're doing their work, it can be formatted to the workplace, whether it's a creative brief prd, how might we statements being able to build out hypotheses, even if it's a very small projection of saying, when I do this project, I think it will increase the income of this, you know, small business by X amount.
Speaker C:Like, they can learn very basic finances and bring that into their work.
Speaker D:Yeah, that's really interesting what you're saying, because again, when I was in grad school, I had a professor that he told us, okay, every class we're going, every week, we're going to start with, like, a little inspiration.
Speaker D:And at the beginning, you know, nobody really wanted to say anything.
Speaker D:And it was pretty, like, flat, you know, just like, I saw this beautiful painting outside.
Speaker D:But, like, over time, like, as they kept challenging, challenging us, like, okay, but why is it so interesting?
Speaker D:What does it make it so significant?
Speaker D:How does this relate to advertising?
Speaker D:Right.
Speaker D:Or what are they trying to accomplish by doing this?
Speaker D:Over time, you saw more of the students actually kind of creating their own presentations and, like, overcoming their fear of talking about work that they love or passionate about.
Speaker D:So it became like almost like half of the class.
Speaker D:It was like, okay, now everyone is doing like presentation and talking about what they believe.
Speaker D:And that really helped too.
Speaker E:There's something that I've just been ruminating on in this conversation is that some of the most foundational skills or tenants that we learn when we're students, I'm talking about like kindergarten level.
Speaker E:Apply to a good work environment.
Speaker E:One is the golden rule, like treat others how you want to be treated.
Speaker E:Right.
Speaker E:So it goes back to that lead with kindness.
Speaker E:Assume that we're all like facing this and, and, and achieving or trying to achieve the same goal of success.
Speaker E:And then almost like the skill of show and tell.
Speaker E:Like really, this is so basic first grade stuff.
Speaker E:But it's like, here is my collection of rocks.
Speaker E:And this is why I think geology is an important field that needs to be studied, you know?
Speaker C:Right.
Speaker E:It's, it's so foundational.
Speaker E:But at the end of the day, like simplifying these concepts to something that's relatable ultimately results, I think in better outcomes because it feels so intuitive.
Speaker E:I did say intuition earlier to be clear.
Speaker E:So yeah.
Speaker D:It helps you get to know your peers like you start seeing what they like, what they talk about.
Speaker E:You know, so, and understand how they think.
Speaker B:I mean, these are the types of insights that we're so interested in.
Speaker B:This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Speaker B:And this is why the Works in Process podcast is looking to evolve into a resource the emerging creatives need and the support that you, the educators, can use to continue to give students their voice.
Speaker B:As educators, we understand there are a lot of topics to go over.
Speaker B:There's not always something that you can teach in your class.
Speaker B:And outside resources like podcasts are valuable ways to help reach your students, which is why we're shifting from the individual stories to topics of interest.
Speaker B:The episodes will take on a more panel style format featuring multiple perspectives like we have here today.
Speaker B:But we're not coming from a place of expertise, but rather asking the community to build something for shared knowledge.
Speaker B:As we close out this live podcast at the One Club's Educator Summit, we'd like you to ponder two questions.
Speaker B:What's one small change you'll take back from the classroom or team after this summit?
Speaker B:And how are you supporting your emerging creatives growth to not just fit in a job, but thrive in it?
Speaker B:I'd like to thank our panelists Sabrina and Jose for their time and expertise and of course I'd like to thank or for all the outstanding research that she has done to make this Works in Process podcast be better.
Speaker B:We're seeking topics to tackle, so if you're interested in, have a working knowledge about something and want to be on the podcast, please reach out.
Speaker D:All right.
Speaker D:Thank you all so much.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker D:Thank you.
Speaker D:Like, oh, my goodness.
Speaker D:Let me see.
Speaker D:George returned to the front for, I believe, a selfie.
