Welcome back to Modern Financial Wellness! I’m your host, Jim Grace, and I’m excited to share today’s episode—a deep dive into one of the most complex and sometimes overlooked aspects of couples and money: financial infidelity. If you’ve ever wondered what counts as a financial secret, how keeping money habits under wraps can impact a relationship, or how big the gap is between you and your partner’s approach to hidden spending, you won’t want to miss this episode.

Our guest today is a returning favorite, Dr. Jenny Olson, marketing professor at Indiana University's Kelley School of Business. If you caught our last conversation, you’ll remember her research on the benefits of merging finances and the factors that help couples create financial harmony. This time, she’s back to unpack her latest study, “Financial Infidelity Asymmetry Predicts Couples’ Financial and Relationship Well-Being,” and the results might surprise you.

5 Key Takeaways from the Episode

1. Financial Infidelity Is More Than Just Hiding Purchases
2. Dr. Jenny Olson defines financial infidelity as intentionally doing something with money you know your partner wouldn’t approve of, and hiding it. It’s not about every little purchase, but the concealment of actions you expect would cause conflict.
3. Asymmetry Predicts Relationship Health
4. The greater the gap between partners’ tendencies toward financial infidelity, the worse off the couple is—leading to less money, lower financial well-being, and decreased relationship satisfaction. Aligning values and habits is more important than just being thrifty.
5. Differences Aren’t Always Destructive—Unless They’re Secretive
6. Partners can have very different approaches to money (tightwad vs. spendthrift, saver vs. spender), but when these differences are out in the open, couples can thrive. The problem comes when one or both partners start hiding financial behavior.
7. Transparency and Planned Conversations Are Crucial
8. Touch base with your partner regularly about money—don’t just spring it on them when tensions are high. Scheduling money talks and setting clear parameters for what needs to be discussed helps keep communication healthy and nonjudgmental.
9. Joint Mindset Beats Scorekeeping
10. Healthy couples focus on “how can we work together?” instead of “who spent more?” Moving away from tit-for-tat or exchange norms toward a communal approach—“we’re on the same team”—makes it easier to address challenges and prevent financial secrets.

Resources Mentioned

• Dr.Jenny Olson’s website: http://www.jennyginolson.com/
• “Tightwads and Spendthrifts” by Scott Rick
• “Money Together” by the Boneparths

Thanks for listening! If you enjoyed this episode or you’re navigating finance in your own relationship, share it with your partner or anyone who might benefit. And remember, nothing you hear on the podcast is a substitute for personal financial advice—always consult your own advisors!

Catch us next time for more on financial wellness, or check out Dr. Jenny Olson’s research for more insights.

So my guest today is a marketing professor at Indiana University's Kelly School of Business. She's a repeat guest on Modern Financial Wellness. Dr. Jenny Olson, welcome back to the show. Thanks so much for taking the time. I appreciate it.

Yeah, thank you so much for having me. I'm really looking forward to this conversation.

Likewise. Likewise. So last time you were here, we talked about couples and money, broadly speaking, and we focused on the benefits of merging finances, which is really enlightening and useful. We touched on this concept last time of financial infidelity, but I asked you back to maybe dig into that and explore a little bit more. You recently published a study titled Financial Infidelity Asymmetry Predicts Couples, Financial and Relationship well Being, which is always a long winded, you know, title to a. To a study. So that's what I was hoping to dig in and focus our conversation around today. Is this concept of financial infidelity, what it means and how it impacts couples and relationships? So would it make sense to just review the concept or the definition of financial infidelity to start? How do you think about that or define it?

So going back to what you had mentioned about last time, you know, we're talking about merging finances, and I always like to think about how my research really taps how into how money brings couples together but also tears them apart. And so today we're talking about tearing apart. And so, yeah, I think it makes sense to start broadly, like, making sure everybody understands how we are defining it from an academic perspective. And so my. A couple of my other co authors and I actually published, arguably one of the first, if not the first, paper on financial infidelity back in 2020. So before the paper that we just published was published, and it was interesting, we both ran like, we. There was like two teams of two, and we both realized that we were interested in financial infidelity. And so I remember when we joined forces, we're like, yes, we're gonna study this really cool idea.

You know, we kept seeing news articles that were like, stealth spending. You know, is your partner hiding purchases? Or like, you know, on Instagram, like, pictures of people hiding Amazon packages underneath the doormat. And we were like, all right, we're studying financial infidelity. And then we quickly realized we had no idea what it was.

We're like, wait, doesn't appear in the research anywhere. Like, it's not an action. Yeah, yeah.

We were like, is it, you know, is it having an offshore account probably without telling your partner? But is it as something as small as, you know, Buying a Snickers bar without telling your partner. Partner, you know, and so we were kind of grappling with this. This definitional ambiguity. And so that was the first thing we did is we actually interviewed, gosh, I think, up to, like, a thousand married people and just asked them, how do you define financial infidelity? Like, what does that mean? And from that really rich qualitative exercise, we identified a key definition, and it has two components. So we defined financial infidelity as intentionally engaging in any financial behavior that you expect will be disapproved of by your partner, and then two is subsequently concealing that information. So there's an act, and then there's subsequent concealment. So if, you know, purchasing a Snickers bar, like, if my partner and I have an agreement like, you don't need to tell me if you're going to buy, you know, a Snickers bar, then that act does not. I don't expect disapproval from that.

But if my partner and I are on a very tight budget and we've agreed that not to engage in, you know, some different degrees of discretionary spending, and then I actively do that, and then I hide it, that falls into that financial infidelity realm.

Yeah, yeah. It was interesting when I learned that, too, because I felt like sometimes it could be kind of innocuous. And even I think back on my own behavior, where I may have kind of tiptoed up to that line. It's, you know, it's a really interesting kind of description to think about. So this act is. And then this expectation that there's going to be negative emotions or feedback. So concealing that behavior from your partner is how we'll think about financial infidelity moving forward. And, yeah, so tell me about the asymmetry part, because that was what was really interesting to me in terms of the most recent study and these differences in behavior or how couples operate.

So what were you thinking when you kind of. What was the hypothesis or what were you looking at when you developed this most recent study?

So, yeah, so going back to that first paper, it was all done at the individual level. And we developed a scale where we're measuring individual level differences and what we're calling financial infidelity proneness. So in other words, the likelihood of engaging in these acts and subsequent concealments, and it's an individual difference variables how we conceptualize it. And then we quickly realize that financial infidelity happens within the context of relationship. So it's not just one person acting autonomously like we're. We're interdependent. Whatever one partner does directly affects the other and also indirectly affects the other. And so we started talking about asymmetry.

And so we think about asymmetry is the degree to which two partners differ in their propensity to engage in financial infidelity. So couples that have lower asymmetry. And going back to your point, this was really complicated to write because we were like, it's like a mouthful, right? Financial infidelity asymmetry. So if I say fi, I'm financial infidelity. But you know, asymmetry is the degree to which two partners differ. So when there's lower asymmetry, you're more aligned, but what there's greater, you're more misaligned.

Right. And all the couples that I work with are different, right? In some way, shape or form. Some are more similar than others, but some have huge gaps in behavior and mindset values, whatever it is, right. Everybody that I work with has these differences. So you're looking at the level of asymmetry or the level and difference and how they are prone to financial infidelity, is that right?

Yes, so. So other examples of the, these asymmetries like you're talking about are things like tightwad, spendthrift status, you know, so like the degree to which one partner's like cheaper than the other. Self control. Sometimes one partner has a lot of self control and the other partner doesn't, you know, and they, they struggle more with temptation. And so we were really interested in specifically this financial infidelity asymmetry. And we did consider some of these other asymmetries. But we do find that financial infidelity asymmetry is a really robust perspective predictor of some of the different outcomes that we looked at.

And what were the, what was it a robust predictor of?

So we found that the greater the level of asymmetry between partners, so the more different we are in our tendency. Like one partner is much more likely to engage in these behaviors than the other. It predicts lower total assets. Like you have less money in your bank accounts. We had bank account data. You report lower subjective financial well being. So you just feel worse about your finances together. And then the third one is relationship satisfaction.

So the more different we are, we're just not happy as happy in our union.

Right. So if there's asymmetry within a couple, meaning one partner is highly prone to financial infidelity and the other is not, you're going to have less money and be less happy. That's what you found yeah.

Yes. Yes. The more the divergence is. So most of it's correlational. So the greater the level of asymmetry, the worse off you are.

Yeah, yeah. Which I guess makes sense, right? That. That would seem to. To make sense. What's interesting to me, you mentioned the different predictors, specifically tight wads and spendthrifts. And I was thinking about this in my practice. Again, all the couples that I work with are different, and some of the clients that I work with are very different in mindset, behavior, attitude, where they come from. They're just, they're totally different people.

And I work with some tightwads and spend thrifts that those differences in them of themselves have become very challenging and they're doing the work to try to move through that together. And I'm always very impressed at how open and honest a lot of those couples are. Right. So I'm thinking to myself, here are two different people that are struggling with money, but they're here, they're at the table, they're doing the work, and there's no financial infidelity or secrets. It's all open and transparent and honest. And it's always really, really impressive that two people who have those differences can work together. And they seem to be overall very happy. They're just struggling to get on the same page.

Right. But this financial infidelity piece seems to get at something a little bit more deeper, which is a lack of transparency or what one partner might be comfortable or not with. Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

So you just brought up a really interesting point about how sometimes these asymmetries might be positive. Right. Like there, there could be complementary skills. But also this idea that, you know, like in the case of tightwad spender, for example, I might owned that about myself. Like. Yeah. You know, because Taiwan Spencer is defined as the degree to which you find spending painful.

Right. We should define that real quick. I, I say that I'm familiar with the book Tight Wads and spend Thrifts by your colleague. Yeah, yeah, great book. So maybe can we review that real quick because we're referencing. Yeah, for sure.

Yeah. Because we're throwing out this term, so tightwads and Spencer. It's. It's an individual difference in pain of pain. So tight wads spend less than they would ideally like to spend. Like it's painful for them, whereas spendthrifts spend more than they would ideally like to spend. It's. It's not painful enough in some ways.

And the really funny part is they tend to marry each other. So Scott, Rick, Deb Small, Eli Finkel, who are some of my co authors on our paper on the join up bank accounts, they find that they call it fatal fiscal attraction. Like these opposites tend to marry each other and then it predicts, you know, not so happy outcomes. And so that's one specific scenario where this complementarity maybe isn't so good. Just like what we're finding. So we do find that tightwatt spendthrift is correlated with financial infidelity. Proneness asymmetries at about like, it's like a smallish correlation like.02. So the more different you are on tightwood spent thrift, you tend to be more different in your asymmetry as well.

That's interesting. So perhaps because you are opposite, you're just kind of anxious about what your partner is going to think because you recognize that they're different, they think differently, they operate differently. And perhaps I'm more inclined to maybe keep things a secret from my partner.

Yeah. And that gets into. So we haven't looked at this before, but one of the big, we think drivers of this is this, you know, anticipated. Well, it's the anticipated disapproval. Like I'm a fool afraid to tell my partner about these things. Like maybe it brings up some guilt or shame. And as I'm sure you see in your practice, like money is not just about money, it's about all these things. Right.

And so financial infidelity is a really unique one because it, transparency is baked into it. And when two partners aren't open with each other, that's where you're going to get into trouble. And so we actually find that what drives these negative relationships for relationship and financial well being is having more individualized financial goals. Right. You're just not coordinating. If one partner is not bringing their full selves to the table, it's difficult to coordinate for goal pursuit.

Right, right. So this lack of transparency, lack of communication, I guess. Right. More broadly speaking, we're just not coming to the table to open up and, and talk to people about what our goals are. Right. Which then downstream of that it makes a ton of sense. Would lead to less lack of relationship satisfaction and well being overall. Just, you know, the downstream consequences of, of these actions makes, makes a ton of sense.

Right. What, what makes somebody prone to financial infidelity? So it seems like there are predictors of that. Can you, can you tell us a little bit about, you know, why somebody might be prone to fi.

So. Yeah. Right. So in our first paper we did A really big, deep dive into the correlations with financial infidelity, like, at the individual level. And it's correlated with, like, almost everything in terms of, like, on a lower, like, you know, 0.3 level. But some of the traits that it's. It is correlated with are things like Machiavellianism and entitlement. So it's kind of like, I don't need to tell my partner, so I'm going to go ahead and do this.

So they almost don't see it as financial infidelity. We also find that financial harmony, you know, so, like, if you're not doing well with finances in your relationship to begin with, it could also become almost like a retaliatory behavior of, like, not.

Doing well, as in you're not where.

You'Re happy with how well you're. How much you're saving, you're not happy with how you're spending. That kind of thing.

I gotcha and I cut you off. I'm sorry. So that could be an indicator of. Of what.

That you might actually. It can become a power thing or autonomy. So, like, some of the couples that we. We heard from to talked about situations where, like, I feel like I have to hide my money from my partner so I can feel like I have some control or that I have some autonomy. So there's all these different kind of individual tendencies that can predict, you know, whether or not someone might be more willing or less willing to engage in these. We haven't done a deep dive on the motivations yet, but that is something that we. We want to look more into. Like what.

What actually drives it, not just at the individual level, but the asymmetry within the couple. We also don't know much about that yet.

Mm. Mm. It's just really, really interesting to me overall, because as I'm hearing you describe all these things again, in my practice, I work with a lot of people who are just different human beings, right? They have different past experiences that translate into different behaviors and how they're going to operate in adulthood. And the other interesting thing to me about the. The kind of couples dynamic is a lot of the couples that I work with, especially if I start working a few years into their marriage, or it could be deep into their marriage, now that I think of it. But at one point, we all operated individually, right? We graduate from college, we go out into the world, we rent an apartment, we open bank accounts, we start investing, right? We're doing all these things individually, and then we find somebody we love and we get into A relationship. And then it's interesting to me, when I work with couples, I call it operating separately together. Right.

So they maintain the separate bank accounts. You pay some bills, I pay some bills. We have these different perspectives, and it all works. And then somewhere around, like, having a kid or buying a house or having to make major financial decisions, the couple realizes, wow, we're operating separately, and this doesn't work anymore. And creates this opportunity to kind of work together and move through some of these things. But it just strikes me that there's a lot of work to be done in understanding who our partner is and where they come from and how they operate so that we can kind of move forward together. I don't know if that kind of makes sense or lands with you at all. Sure.

Well, and it kind of speaks to some of my other work in terms of just that transition from being independent. And, you know, nowadays people, if they even choose to get married, are getting married later, and they oftentimes already have a financial life before. Right. And so you have a bit more, you know, a solidified sense of who you are, what your financial values are. And then all of a sudden, it's, oh, no, I have to, like, share all of this with a partner. Like, I always joke about how when my now husband. We've been married like, 14 years, so it's. It's been a long time.

But I remember when we got engaged, and he's like, hey, we should start managing money together. Let's get a joint account. And I was like, no, it's funny. Now, my research, I'm like, no, I should have. And we did, we did, because research shows it's good. But no, it's like, you know, we. A lot of us have that. That autonomy.

And I think this is interesting because it gets at this financial infidelity where some people may not see it that way. It's like, I don't have to tell my partner everything. And I know some people, like Scott. Scott Rick, who I mentioned, I think he thinks it's. He actually comes from the perspective of, like, it's okay. We don't have to share every detail. Right. Like, I don't need to share every detail.

It's okay. And I come from the perspective, like, yes, as long as you and your partner agree to that. If we agree that we don't have to share every specific transaction. That's what my husband and I do. Like, you know, we have joint accounts, but separate credit cards. So that way it's still all merged, but we have that Autonomy. So then that minimizes the likelihood of engaging in financial infidelity because we have that autonomy and, you know, sense of control.

Yeah. And I think that's probably the gray area that I was trying to think about earlier when I said that I've maybe tiptoed up to that line. I don't think I'm doing anything wrong. But I know that there are certain times in the past where I was like, well, this isn't worth mentioning. And it was. Wasn't worth mentioning because I didn't want to have the discussion. Not that they even, you know, it's not a big deal. And my wife and I have a great relationship.

We're on the same page a lot of times when it comes to money. But it's like, you know, it's just. It's really nuanced and interesting to me, and there's a lot of gray area in that space where you have to be careful, I guess, is kind of the disclaimer.

Yeah. No, and I love that because, like, there is so much we don't know in terms of research in this space. We don't know a lot about these dynamics. And like you said, like, what is that line? Like, what is the point? You know, how can we identify that? I suspect it varies for each couple. Kind of like what we were saying. Because we also argue that financial infidelity happens across the income spectrum, you know, because sometimes people will be like, oh, it's only, like, among the wealthy. And I'm like, no, it's. It's.

It's across. Right. It might manifest differently, but it's interesting at what point. So I. I often talk about spending thresholds as one way to minimize the likelihood of financial infidelity. So, you know, you and your partner sit down and actually have that discussion of, how much money can I spend before I need to ask you. And that number varies for different couples. It might vary over time within the same couple.

And I think that that almost helps you prevent getting into that gray zone of should I mention this or not? Kind of a thing.

Yeah. But trying to find that balance. Right. I like the way that you described Rick mentioning before about not having to tell your partner about everything you're doing. I mean, some people might be listening to this and thinking, like, I just have to disclose everything. It has to be everything on the table all the time, every purchase. And that feels kind of cumbersome. Right.

Transparency is good, but at what point is it, you know, kind of cumbersome and actually hurting the relationships trying to Find that balancing act where you have some parameters, where you're in agreement and you're aware of what's going on, but you don't have to feel like you're being studied and accused. And watch. Right. Yeah, exactly. Where somebody's tracking all of your expenses and calling you on everything. That. That doesn't feel good either, right?

No. And then it becomes almost like childlike, like you're reprimanding me. And I mean, I don't like that feeling, you know, I don't think anybody does. We don't like to feel like that. And so I think it's more about just do we have an agreement? And then again, every couple's different with that. One thing that I think like again that my husband and I do, that I think seems generally helpful is like it's fully transparent, but it doesn't mean I have to go and look at it all I can if I want to.

It's there, access to the information. Right. I have the login, I can go see what's going on if I want to. But it's not this review audit every week, every month. Yeah, exactly, right. Where somebody's going to come in and start pointing the finger. Yeah, exactly.

Because everyone values different things with spending and like it's inevitably gonna. The, like you said the finger pointing, auditing. I should start a project on that. That sounds interesting.

Yeah. So what other tips, advice. Is there anything that comes to mind when we're thinking about this concept of financial infidelity? You mentioned an agreement, having a threshold, a dollar amount, anything under this, we don't have to talk about it. Feel free. Anything over, we need to have a discussion. I think that's great advice. Are there any other useful tips, ideas, things that you've come across, things in your own life that work for you and your husband that would be worth.

Mentioning, I think, and you've probably heard this before, everyone talks about these like money dates, like actually sitting down and talking about it. But I always emphasize it's not just a one time discussion, it's something that has to happen frequently. So I do have another paper that's not published yet where we look at financial conversations and you know, as a vehicle to promote transparency. All my, all these papers are related in some way.

I was going to say there's like a nice through line. So you studied financial infidelity individually, realized realize that it's really occurring within these couple dynamics and, and studied the asymmetry and now you're talking, doing some research on the conversations Right. The how to. So we'll have to have you back for a third time when that comes out, you know. Yeah.

And one. And so I'll give you some preliminary findings is what we're saying is that I think the. The big effect is that couples expect financial conversations with their partner to be worse than they are. So we did a series of diary studies where we recruited married people, and we had them fill out a battery of items, and we asked them to, you know, we're going to ask you to have a financial conversation tonight with your partner. How well do you think it's going to go? How socially connecting do you feel, will you feel? How much will you learn from your partner? How close will you feel? All these different types of affective outcomes. They had that conversation that night, and then we came back to them 24 hours later and said, how did it go? How socially connected did you feel? And kind of asked them that. And we find this uptick. So there's this misprediction error where people think it's going to be worse, but it actually ends up being better.

And the reason for this misprediction is that we expect financial conversations not to be resolved. And maybe you've seen this in with your clients, too, where, like, you know, it's like, I don't want to talk about it because you almost. You're. You. You feel like you're just going to be spinning your wheels and you're never going to reach a solution.

Right.

And that talking about money, you also anticipate it's going to reveal differences between you, like, oh, you're spending on that. I'm what? You know, and it reveals the tension. And that gets back at that financial infidelity piece.

Right.

And one of the big things that we're finding that can be beneficial is planning the conversation. Nobody wants this sprung on them. Right. I, you know, if I am, like, sitting down after a long night at work and my husband is like, why did you buy that Lubu Boo or whatever those weird things are right now? I'm not buying those or that. Right. And I'm like, ah. And I'm not prepared for that. That's when you're going to get into acrimony.

Right. It's going to be like pointing fingers as opposed to, let's plan it. It gives you a chance to collect your thoughts and go into that conversation kind of in a clear state of mind where you can actively work forward and move forward and kind of put the things out there on the table that you Want almost in a dispassionate way because money's very emotional.

Right.

And so if you can be kind of in a cold mental state, not a hot state, that's going to typically be better for your. The. The dynamic that you're going to have.

Yeah, that's definitely something I see all the time. In fact, I was talking to a couple recently and there was a little bit more stress than normal. They have been going through a bit of a transition and things are up in the air and they just weren't feeling as good as they normally do about their financial situation. And when I dug into how they were talking about money, I realized they had kind of gotten away from their pre planned, scheduled. We're going to commit time and focus to this discussion. How they had been operating in the past. And they were just doing it in passing. Right.

And the husband said, well, when my wife is making dinner, I'll sit at the island and we'll have this conversation. And it's like, that's not the right time place. We're not in the right head space for that. We're not retaining it and we're not giving it our full attention. So I love the idea of making sure that that's pre planned and scheduled and focused. I love the way that you describe that too, that cold state. Right. And not coming into it with the emotion and realizing that the conversation itself, it sounds like you've discovered it's going to be a little bit better than you think it's going to go.

Right. And also the thing that I find is also really helpful is to just make sure it's nonjudgmental. Right. It's an opportunity to be curious to find that transparency together and collaborate and not get into this audit. Pointing fingers, however you want to think about that. Right. It's a. It's an opportunity for transparency, which your research would suggest is highly impactful in a positive way.

If I. If I. Yeah, yeah.

No, I love that I. The. The other thing that goes along with this is when you were mentioning, like pointing fingers is we also do find some evidence and that try to focus on joint behavior as opposed to individual behavior. And what that means is what can we do together to move forward as opposed to, you're spending too much, you need to cut back. And it gets at that, like you and me or tit for tat. There is another framework that we've used in some of this work that highlights the distinction between communal and exchange norms. I don't know if you've Heard of that?

I don't think so, no. Tell me more about that.

Yeah. Kind of give a high level. So marriage is typically communal. So two partners respond to each other's needs because they have a need. There's no questions about, like, do you actually need this kind of a thing? Whereas an exchange norm, it's more tit for tat. I do this for you because I expect you to return the favor. So, like, yeah, score keeping. Like, I'm gonna cook dinner tonight because I know you're gonna do it for me tomorrow night as opposed to, I'm gonna cook dinner because I know you're stressed.

Like, there's no, like, prepaying for future favors kind of a thing. And money can get into that exchange thing. Right. Versus the communal pot of, like, we're in this together. We have a shared pool of resources. Even if you have separate accounts, you still have shared resources. Like, you're having to make household decisions. Right.

But exchange norms are. Are more common in business. Right. I'm going to pay you for a service kind of a thing, and I get that in return kind of versus, you know, like, we are in this together. So it's really important to maintain that. That joint mindset. You are in this together. My husband tells me this all the time, and so I fall for this stuff as well.

We are on the same team. I'm like this rugged into. I was like, you know, I've got my PhD, like, I'm financially independent, all this sort of. And he's just like, we are on the same team. You're right. It's not a competition. You know, we have children. Like, we have to work together on these things.

And so remind yourself, like, you're on the same team.

Yeah, that gets. Reminds me of something you said earlier. The retaliatory nature of somebody's own perception of their current financial status. I forget how you described it, but it's like, I don't feel like I'm where I should be or I don't feel I should be further along. We should have more money, whatever the, you know, description is. So I'm going to start keeping score of all the great things that I'm doing and point the finger at you and all the negative things that you're doing. Maybe it's spending or credit card debt or whatever it is. And it's just that is not a right place for healthy communication and moving forward together.

Right. It's not a. It's not a teammate type of mentality. Right.

Yeah, that's. You Versus me. Versus me.

Right.

Yeah. So I talked. I mentioned retaliatory spending. Like, sometimes people are like, well, you spent that on a, you know, a new video game. I'm gonna go spend this on a night out with my friends. And yeah, again, it gets at that tit for tat kind of back and forth, which typically is not constructive for relational health.

Yeah, yeah. And the couples and money thing, it's always interesting. We could talk about budgeting and spending, but it's also support within the household. Right. So, you know, keeping score on the nights out with the girls or the guys or, you know, whatever. You played golf or you went shopping or whatever the case might be. I mean, it feels like it's, you know, money kind of blends into the household, and it's a big important part of the conversation. But there's also these other things that need to be in place so we can have a healthier conversation about money.

It's like, you know, I've seen some times where people might be arguing about money, and it's like, is this really about the money or is there something else going on? So it's just like, being aware of what else is going on in your household and your relationship and how you're supporting one another can be beneficial and, you know, help people move forward as well.

Oh, yeah. The money is never about just the money.

It's right who.

I always say, we don't come to the kitchen table as blank slates. Right. We've grown up in households watching, you know, caregivers and parental figures navigate this before us. And then you just kind of learn these different dynamics. And so you. Money for different people represents different things. And that's always a good first conversation of, like, where do you hope to be? You know, is money something that is fun and spontaneous and, like, when you get it, you can spend it. Let's go on a vacation and indulge and treat ourselves.

Other people. Money is about, you know, having a safety net. This. It's much more like preventative measure. We need to have a rainy day fund. Like, we. We save money just to save it. And as I mentioned, they tend to marry each other, so to some extent.

But, yeah, it's never just about just the money. Like, you got to dig a little bit deeper.

Yeah. And it's also, again, I think you bring this up where it's a really a great opportunity for us to leverage each other's strengths and support one another, where maybe there's a deficit. Right. So usually there's one person that's very skilled and capable of keeping track of the budget. Right. So that person should probably be the cfo, and that doesn't give the other partner the excuse not to pay attention or be aware. Right. But just because you're opposites, you have different experiences and mindsets about money.

How do we work together and support one another so that we're moving forward together? Right. It's an opportunity. Doesn't have to be a negative. Right. And if the research is accurate, we're probably with somebody that has opposite strengths, as we do. Right. In ways of looking at this. So.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Is there anything else related to financial infidelity in particular? Did we skip over, gloss over that you want to click into big stuff?

I think one interesting space we don't know a lot about yet. So I guess one of the big caveats for our paper that I want to make sure I. I put out there is it's not. So we talk about the asymmetry a lot. But symmetry can look different as a function of the level of financial infidelity. So, like, two people might be pretty much both low in financial infidelity pro. Ness. Or you could have two people who are really high, but they're the same.

And so I will say that our research, we really only look at couples where both partners are low in their tendencies and compare them against couples where there's a little more asymmetry. We don't observe in our data very. Like very many couples where both partners are really high, and we kind of assume it's because they don't work. If you have two people that are raging financial infidelity people, they're probably just not together.

Right?

Yeah. They're not there to force. And so that is. But at this, it was interesting because we went into the project thinking, wouldn't it be interesting if they're actually really happy, just like the two couples that are similar on the low end? What if they're actually really happy because they both have this understanding of like, yeah, we're both doing it, why not? Kind of a thing. But we. We just don't observe enough of those couples. And so, you know, future research will have to delve into that a little bit more. But at the end of the day, we really do argue that it's the asymmetry, it's the difference between the two partners that seems to matter more than just the level.

Because we do find in a couple of experiments that having one person engage in financial infidelity within the pair is just as bad as Both. So it's really, we're, you know, there. And then the rest of our studies, it's really about this discrepancy. So anything you can do to align your goals, align your preferences, we believe is going to be good for your financial and your relational well being.

Yeah. And you've seen in your past research, which we've talked about merging finances, a lot of openness, transparency, making sure you're on the same page. Good. First steps towards a path to a healthy relationship with money. Not keeping secrets. I mean, it boils down, it seems so simple. You know, I read through your work and it's like, yeah, that, that makes a lot of sense. If you're keeping things from your partner intentionally because you think they're going to be upset, that might be a good indicator that, you know, there might be some trouble on the horizon.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, Jenny, we really appreciate your time and your work. It's super applicable to the work that we do and the work that I do with, with clients. So you've, you've studied this financial infidelity piece. We've talked about merging finances. We're, I'm very excited to talk to you about those conversations around money.

I'm really interested to see what, what that looks like when you put it out. Where should people go to check you out your work? Any websites, social media, anything you want to promote while you're here?

Sure, yeah. I have, my personal website is jennyjn.olson.com and that's where I have links to different papers and so people can check that out. Google Scholar, you could find all of my papers as well. I have different social media accounts, not as active at the moment outside of Instagram and mostly it's kids. So yeah, I would say jenny gin olsen.com awesome.

And lastly, any resources are there books that you've read, podcasts that you've listened to, colleagues work that you find really helpful for people who are thinking about, you know, how do we do this money and couples better. Are there other resources besides your own that, that you go to and would want to source?

Yeah. So I've mentioned Scott Rick's work. He has a book as well. As I see the book behind you, Money Together, the Bonapartes is also a great resource, so I recommend those. And then podcasts like your own.

Appreciate it. Thanks for the plug. Cool. All right. Jenny Olson, Dr. Jenny Olson, thank you so much for your time. Appreciate you being here. And when that Conversations about Money study is published and out and you're talking about it, I hope you come back and talk to us about what you found.

That'll be really interesting. All right, Jenny, thanks again. We'll see you soon. Thanks again for listening to this episode. A quick note. Although I do hope that the information that we talked about was helpful, in no way is anything discussed on the podcast to be taken as specific financial advice. Please consult your own advisors and do your own research when you're making important financial decisions.