Tom Pepperdine interviews Ross Jeffery about his writing process. Ross discusses his writing schedule, the way he structures his plotting and pacing, and why he's got crime scene photos on his pinboard.

You can find all of Ross's information on his website here: https://writerrossjeffery.wordpress.com/

And you can follow her on Twitter here: https://twitter.com/RossJeffery_

And you can watch all of his YouTube videos here: https://bit.ly/31f78SM

And you can find more information on our upcoming guests on the following links:

https://twitter.com/Therealwriting1

https://www.instagram.com/realwritingpro

https://www.facebook.com/therealwritingprocesspodcast

Hello, and welcome to The Real Writing Process.

I'm your host, Tom Pepperdine.

And this episode, my guest is the horror writer, Ross Jeffery.

Ross is the Bram Stoker award and Splatterpunk award nominated author

of Tome, Juniper and Tethered.

Ross's fiction has appeared in various print anthologies and his short

stories and flash fiction has been published in many online magazines.

This interview was recorded in late October, 2021.

A few months after the release of his novella.

Only The Stains Remain.

And on today's episode, I'm pleased to say I'm joined by Ross Jeffery.

Hello, Ross.

Hello everyone.

Hello.

And my first question as always, what are we drinking?

I am drinking.

People won't be able to see this, but this is my writing cup and I used this

same cup every single time I write.

And in it, I have a very strong black coffee.

And to also wash it down, I have a bottle of blackcurrant squash as I'm

trying not to drink during the week.

Okay.

And how's that going?

Is that working?

Yeah, it's going alright.

Unless I meet up with people in Bristol and all those plans go out the window,

but most of the time it's working alright, but I seem to drink more black coffee.

So I'm just replacing one with the other.

And so has black coffee always been your writing drink?

Is that something that's developed over time or is it right from the start?

I never used to drink anything hot or anything

alcoholic until I was about 21.

And then I met my wife and she corrupted me, so I got introduced to alcohol and

and then over time I've developed coffee.

Originally, she said, try it with milk, which is okay.

But then gradually has become black coffee, no sugar, no milk.

So wherever I am, hopefully even at work, like if I run out of

milk, I've got black coffee.

Nice.

It's brilliant.

But yes.

I probably have far too much when I'm writing.

Probably about four or five cups a day whilst I'm sitting down at the keyboard.

And where I'm talking to you now, is this where you write at home?

Is this your writing desk?

Yes.

Yeah, I'm seeing my writing desk.

I have my lovely Bram Stoker Award nomination up on the wall in front

of me, as a bit of encouragement.

And lots of stuff dotted around like little knickknacks and stuff.

But yeah, this is where I write and all of my kind of books are

behind me in the corners and stuff.

Our house seems to be just held together with books, but most of

them are downstairs, but in here are my my own private collection.

And moving on to your actual writing process then, what sets an idea apart?

That you think, actually, this is something I want to develop into a story.

Is it generally a character or a scenario?

Um, so currently I've got about 10 nice story ideas that are written down.

And what I tend to do, and this is also whilst also writing

short stories alongside it.

And my most recent book, Only The Stains Remain, that initially

started as a short story, and it was only kind of 4,000 words.

So it was pretty short.

And the thing that I get drawn to is if a character or an idea doesn't leave me.

And with this particular short story, the character just seemed to haunt me

like for weeks after I'd finished it.

And I was often thinking what happened to that person?

Like, how did he end up here?

And what kind of were the external kind of situation he

was in and how did he do this?

And when that starts to go around in my head, I'm like,

yeah, that's that needs more.

And then I'll just sit down and draw and write extra notes and kind of

mind map where the story can go.

And normally like with the 10 books, I've got planned out one will generally rise

to the top that and today I had that.

I was at work, but I had that kind of, that story, out of those 10,

gradually over the days has got more and more into my thoughts.

So that will probably be the next one, but I'm currently

in the middle of writing one.

It's just yeah, every time I seem to write, ideas pop in the head

and then I have to quickly jot them down and I'll come back to them

later, but it's always the way.

You never write without having other ideas come up.

I find anyway.

So with having a day job and having the ideas percolate there.

And you said, you flesh things out, you map things out.

Are you someone who uses physical notebooks or is it an app on your phone?

Where do you put your notes?

I have various notebooks.

I have one in particular, which is just for note making and I carry

it around everywhere with me.

So every day I've got it on me.

And then I have another notebook which when I get to the stage

of planning to write, I will do a title page in that notebook.

The following subsequent pages will be full of notes and ideas and

chapters and all that kind of stuff.

I'm more of a, I used to be a pantser.

So with my first book, I just thought this is a story I

want to tell and I'll tell it.

And then I went straight from writing that into writing book two of this

series, which ended up being a novel, but I had to really plan it.

And since that, I've not planned anything.

Apart from short stories, I just let it go where it goes, but with longer works,

I find it easier when I kind of plan out the separate acts and how many chapters

are going to be in each act and how it builds and all that kind of stuff.

Yeah.

It's it's interesting.

And I also use my, I use my phone and use the notes app on my phone.

Just, it's normally, when I'm falling asleep.

I'll have an idea and I'd be like quick, where's my phone?

I'll type it in and then read it in the morning and it's

just gobbledygook most of it.

Yeah.

But yeah, I do keep notes on my phone and then if I am walking or something

and something pops up, I'm just quick to get my phone out, jot it down.

And then when I get back, I transcribe it into a notebook.

I'm more of a physical medium type person.

I used to typewrite all my stuff.

It worked well in one way was that once I typed it, when I was then typing

it up, it was almost a second edit because I'd be typing up my mistakes

and changing it all, but then I've realized I could just do that on the

computer and it'd be much quicker.

As you've gone on and you've developed more planning outline.

And you said earlier sort of, how many chapters and, the different sections.

So typically for you, how long is, is an average outline

for a novel that you'd write?

I tend to this won't help anybody that's listening, but I'll show you.

And then I will try and describe what I've got.

So this is my current book which is on a massive Pinboard.

And then the kind of yellow cards are my acts.

And then I dropped down the chapters in between and how I want it to work.

And there's lots of other kind of interesting.

Pieces of paper that I've stolen or...

Yeah, so there's a lot of in, index cards on there and there's a blue section,

a pink section and a green section.

Was that just the cards that you had at the time or that

they're very specific acts?

The kind of blue cards, I use as character cards.

So each one represents a character.

And then on there it'll have, this book in particular is the third book of my series.

So there is a lot of kind of background information and some of the characters,

and there's a bit of a time jump like 15 years or so, but so some of the

characters that were in the previous books are now older and I've had to make sure

I put down their ages correctly, cause someone will correct me if I'm wrong.

And then the kind of pink cards, the kind of lead up to act four, act five.

And then the green card, so where the story picks up pace in certain places.

And yeah, and I I do that with everything.

I don't really do a massive outline.

So I don't write a lot down.

I will just work through.

Once I've decided how many chapters are in each act and how I want it to go.

I will give myself in each chapter, a kind of beginning of the chapter

and the end of the chapter.

And then I'll still pants a little bit in the middle, just letting it

gestate and see how it goes and moves.

But also with this way that I work as well, I can kind of, cause the chapters

I've got are everything I want to say, but then having it this way, I can see it.

I can quite easily move the chapters around if I wanted

to mix it up a little bit.

I know lots of people will do a very detailed kind of...

And just for the listeners that may not understand British jargon.

Do you want to explain pants writing?

Oh yeah.

So just kind of sitting down with no clue whatsoever of where you're

going or what you're doing and then just letting the words flow.

And yeah and then planning, a planner is sitting down and planning.

But yeah it's interesting.

I pick up this jargon.

I don't even really know what it means.

Yeah.

Is this a, it's writing by the seat of your pants.

I got it.

But it's just, I'll let you explain it.

Uh, Also with your pinboard there, cause it's quite big, it looks like it's almost

a meter wide by a meter and a half tall.

It's yes.

It's quite a big beast.

At the top there, you had some images.

So that's like kind of photo reference, was that, are those

images that you found online?

In a book?

I found those images because part of my new book, which is called Scorched and

it's coming out through Stygian Sky Media.

Because they've bought the rights to all three books and are republishing

the first two with the third one coming.

And it has in it some elements of spontaneous human combustion.

And my father had a very old kind of encyclopedia thing that he bought

every week when he was younger and it was called The Unexplained.

And in, there were lots of these kind of pictures and chapters each week were

dedicated to spontaneous human combustion.

And so I photocopied some of them, cut them out, like key ones I wanted.

And it just, yeah, just took some of those cut outs of crime scene photos.

There's some bits in there about Shakespeare or Dickens, I think as well.

It appears in some of those works.

So yeah, it was just, so I have something visual to look at when

I'm trying to describe the grizzly.

Nice.

Okay.

Cool.

Is there any part of the planning process that's a real struggle for you that you

always dread before you start doing it?

Or is it all quite fun?

Planning out a new story?

I find it quite fun.

I love every single aspect of it.

Because you know, I write and people thankfully read

my books, but it's not a job.

So I think if I didn't enjoy a part of it, I wouldn't be writing.

Because for me, it's what I do when I'm not working.

I find it quite cathartic.

Like I tackle lots of issues I've had in my life and, other big issues and topics.

But I just love it all.

Like I love the fact I get to write.

Um, and I also love the fact that people like to read what

I've written, is, is pretty nice.

I guess the only thing I struggle with is trying to come up with

a playlist, that's probably it.

And I've only just started that with the last kind of three books, like before

I didn't use to listen to anything.

I used to just sit in silence and write.

I was speaking to Josh Malerman and I interviewed him on my kind of a

YouTube channel and that he writes to music all the time and he's a

musician and everything as well.

And and I was like, I'm going to give that a go.

And then I think it was yeah, one of the books I just listened to like John

Denver songs, just casual, chill out.

The last one, Only The Stains Remain I wrote to a mixed soundtrack of

John Carpenter theme musics across the years, which was really good.

And I enjoyed it.

Like, it didn't distract me too much.

But currently, so the new book, Scorched, I'm writing to the

soundtrack of Midnight Mass.

And the soundtrack is so good.

There's that, you've got lots of hymnal stuff on there, but creepy, yeah.

Sounds really creepy.

So there's a few of those tracks and then it gets into all the atmospheric stuff.

I think I haven't listened to anything else other than that soundtrack on

repeat, whilst I've been writing.

But yeah, like it's trying to find the right mood for the,

like the work that you're doing.

And Only The Stains Remain was quite a hard book to write.

And dealt with a lot of challenging issues.

So I liked to have that beat of the John Carpenter thing to go

through it and listen to that.

And Scorched is a little bit more slow burn.

So that kind of scoring of the music gets me in a kind of zone

which has been quite useful.

And I've really enjoyed it.

Like that's as I develop and grow as a writer, these other things are coming in.

Like music, I'd never thought I'd listen to music.

Yeah.

So it's more soundtracks that I will listen to.

Things without words that will just set a mood set a tone.

Yeah, that's probably the most difficult thing I find is to find

the right music and the mood.

And as you said, this is sort of, like a a hobby that pays more

than a job because you you know, it doesn't feel like work to you.

Cause I think a lot of aspiring writers struggle to finish.

They come up with lovely ideas, but actually the graft of finishing

and fleshing out and making a story the best it could possibly be.

How do you discipline yourself to get all the words on the page?

Was it fairly easy once you've started to finish?

Yeah, I think because I have it planned out, I find that helps.

Because I haven't done it yet, but I'm atabout chapter

something nine of this new book.

Normally, I will cross off as I go each chapter that I've done,

which helps me when I look up and there's more crosses than not.

It helps get me going.

And because I know the kind of pattern and I know that each

chapter, each act has five chapters.

I know that's another ticking down mechanism that I use.

But also what I tend to do.

And I think it was, I can't remember who said it, it was, might have

been Steinbeck or someone like that was, when you write a book, write

it to the end and don't edit it.

Because otherwise you'll always be saying I'm writing a book

instead of I've written a book.

And that was very good.

And I've done that with the last three or four books.

But it does leave a massive hole at the end of I finished a book

and now I have to edit it again.

Because I didn't, I just verbally threw up on the page.

But like with with Only The Stains Remain, I did a I think it was Joe

Lansdale, someone like that, he writes his work and then when he's finished it,

he'll go back the next day and reedit that bit before he moves on to the next

bit, which I did that on that book.

And at the end of it, there was hardly any editing I had

to do when I got to the end.

There was a couple of redrafts maybe moving some chapters around and bits,

but for the words on the page, I didn't have to do that much editing at all.

And with my book the devil's pocket book, which isn't out yet, but I did

the same thing with that going back and everything I wrote, I went back

before I started the next part, just to make sure I caught everything.

And that, that works well as well.

I think it's just that I love writing so much that it's never feels like a chore.

Because I don't have that much time to write that when I do,

I fully dedicate that time.

And and it's normally only on a Friday, cause I didn't work on Fridays.

And when my children are at school, it's get up, get breakfast,

sit down, and then I'll write until it's time to pick them up.

And I'll normally get, yeah, probably between five and 8,000

words in that period of time.

Which is pretty, pretty good.

So you basically have a writing day a week?

Yeah.

I barely write.

I'll go to work and I'll get home about four o'clock ish.

And then it's yeah, dinners for my children and the bedtime

routine and all of that.

And it gets to the evening and I don't really want to write.

I would have possibly written maybe one of the chapters I'm about to get to.

I'll just jot a few notes down about how to proceed.

But yeah, I wouldn't do any writing and then I will save it all up to

for that one day on the Friday.

And I'll just sit down and just unload.

It feels really nice.

Yeah.

No, absolutely.

I think also when you have that ability to not worry too much about each

sentence as it's just coming down.

It's just, I'm just telling the story.

I'm doing a first draft, cause I think a lot of people get hung up to try

and make it perfect the first time.

I know a few people that.

One of my friends Anthony Self he's just released his first

book called Birthday Treat.

And I think he's been working on it for a long time, like two years, this one book.

And it was only maybe six months ago that he'd actually finished it,

but then he had to edit it again.

And, but he's a writer that will write a page and then he'll go back through that

page and start editing before he's even...

and I've told him numerous times to just get the words down and do it.

But it's the way he works and the way he writes.

And and some, sometimes you can't teach people to change their ways, but yeah.

I think he's got the bug now.

So he may change his kind of writing style to just get more,

more down on the page quicker.

Well, I was just um thinking actually, where you said before,

how you'd sit down and reread what you've written before.

If you're writing 5,000, 8,000 words, you're not coming back

the following Friday and spending your time reading that much.

So where do you take a break to reread?

You know, I guess that's a couple of times during that day?

Yeah.

So I would, I would write everything for that day.

At which normally I would finish around about two o'clock and then I will read

from two o'clock until about 2 45, which gives me 15 minutes to get to the school

and then pick them up, bring them home.

And then on the Friday, I normally, my wife's home as well then, I will

normally kind of squirrel myself back up there just to finish reading.

If I don't manage that, I'll then do a bit reading in the week just to

make sure, read what I have written.

And then normally before I sit down on the Friday to write again, I'll probably

read the last three or four pages of what I've done previous, just so I get the

flow into the next chapter and make sure I've not missed a beat that I left it on.

And what really annoys me is when I run out of time when I'm writing and

I have to leave a chapter unfinished.

That's happened a couple of times and I've been very angry with

myself because then you have to get back into that what was I saying?

What was I doing?

I know some authors who will purposely leave themselves mid-sentence

so that when they come back.

They have to run on that idea and they're like, oh yeah, that's exactly where I was.

Whereas I'm very much getting the sense from you that you'd like to finish a

writing block and it's end of chapter or cliff hanger or, it's the end of an event.

Yeah.

Cause I recently I lost a day's writing and I was really pissed off.

I had automatic updates on my Microsoft, not updates automatic save, and I

religiously save so moving my actual icon to actually push the save button.

And I lost about 7,000 words and kind of computer crash and I spent probably

more time looking up how to recover my work than I did spend writing.

Couldn't find anywhere.

I went into the app.

I found a way to find out when the document was last opened to see

if, and it hadn't even registered that it opened it that day.

So I was just like, oh my goodness.

But the point I'm getting at is like, when I sit down to write, it

is more kind of a zone that I enter.

And each kind of Friday's different and it depends what the book is as well.

But like that zone I was in that day was so consuming that I didn't even think

to save because I was just doing it and the music was playing and things were

flying out in my head then onto the page.

And yeah, it's more that I like to, because I can like, it's odd to think,

but the last book and this book, when I look at a chapter number, I can recall

that feeling of what I was feeling on that day when I was writing it.

Yeah.

So yeah, I lost all that work and then I had, and I was really pissed off

and then I had to calm myself down.

And try and think about what I had written.

And I could not think of a word I had written at all.

So the following Friday I came back, sat down, had one, the one

sentence I could remember, which was the start of the chapter.

And I just read and then I had another zone and I was just typing away.

I think it's better than it was, but there were a few lovely kind of

sentence structures that I remember.

I can't remember them, but I knew they were there.

And I couldn't think of it, but they're lost now.

Yeah, it's annoying.

But yeah, I like to end if I'm sitting down to write, I like to either write a

whole chapter or maybe two chapters but I like to end on the end of the chapter.

Cause I build it up as I'm going and sometimes where I've had to

take a break when I come back a bit.

Oh, and then they run off.

Yeah.

And with, I think there's quite a lot of pressure having just one

day a week where you have the time and the space to do that writing,

because if you're feeling unwell.

Does it ever happen that you have a Friday and you just wake up and I feel so rough

or just so uninspired what would you do?

I had that about three weeks ago.

Two weeks ago, actually two weeks ago, I had a week booked off work

and I was like, yes, I'm going to break the back of this book.

I'm going to do this.

And the Sunday before the Monday, I came down with the worst cold.

And I, yeah I felt absolutely rough, but I sat down and I wrote a lot of words.

I wrote about 20,000 words.

Not in one day over the course that week.

There is a lot of pressure and sometimes it'll roll around to the Friday

and I might not feel like writing.

And I have learned that it's best not to force it.

Even if you only write a sentence on that day.

It's, if it's a good sentence, it's a good sentence.

But generally I haven't felt that I couldn't write.

Even when I've been ill, I've been able to sit down and do it, and

it's not really strenuous writing.

So I would sit down and make coffee or hot toddy or something and just chip away.

JK Rowling forgive her for what the other issues she's got, but this one

gem that she had was, once you find that writing day or that writing

time, defend it with your life.

And that's what I do, on a Friday, if people are calling and they know

I'm off, my friends, so they're like, oh, you want to come out for lunch?

And I'm like, no, sorry, can't do that.

I've got to sit down and do this.

And even my family, like when they're like, oh, we're going to come and

visit you, can we come and stay on?

We're going to come on Friday.

I was like, as long as you come on Friday at four o'clock.

That is fine.

But before then I will not let you in.

And so how long does a first draft generally take you?

Because I feels like that's almost like the quickest part.

Yeah.

Again, depends the book and the size, but novel wise.

I would say, and because I only write really on the Fridays, I like

to say around about two months.

Three possibly is probably more likely, but if it's working, I

think I wrote Tome in two months.

And then...

because what I'm leading to is obviously the rewriting.

The dreaded rewrites, and it feels like that's from everything that you've

said so far, that feels like that's probably the toughest part for you.

Would that be correct to say?

Yeah, I'm not, it's quite strange.

And my wife normally makes fun of me because I I'm not very

gifted in in my education.

I somehow have decided to choose writing as another form of expression and at

school I absolutely hated writing.

I hated reading as well because I had a horrible English teacher.

He used to bully me.

So when we used to read out loud in class, because I wasn't confident

in reading out loud, every time I stuttered she would just lay into me.

And then she'd get me to start again at the beginning of the sentence

and then I'd carry on and I then I'd stutter again and she'd be

like, no from the beginning again.

I just got worse and worse and then I think I had some type of mild

dyslexia, or it could be laziness, when I was at primary school.

So I find spelling really difficult.

Punctuation, I find I still find really difficult and my daughters

come home from school and tell me all these amazing words.

And I'm just like, what does that mean?

And they're like, oh, that means when you, you know, subjunctive

clause and all this kind of stuff.

And I'm just like, oh to me that's just writing.

I think, yeah, the rewrites I find are t he, are the most challenging bit.

But what I love about it is that I've used the same editor for

quite a few of my books and that the first book there was just...

cause using track changes, and then he sent it back to me and

it was just red, everywhere.

I was just like, okay.

But then gradually as the books have moved on and I tried to hone my craft

more and take more responsibility for me actually learning how to write better.

And one of those ways is reading.

You only get better at writing when you're reading.

And you can see what other people, how they structure sentences and

punctuation and all that kind of stuff.

And yeah, until gradually each book has come back from him has

had less and less red in it.

And he's also said to me, oh, you've done this superbly.

And do you remember in this book that this was an issue that we had

going for the whole book, but now you seem to have mastered that.

So he's quite an encouraging editor .Built me up as I go along.

But yeah, it's more that my main bugbear is punctuation.

Like, I really struggle with it.

And working with a good editor is worth its weight in gold.

But yeah, there is something about the rewrite that I love.

Just reshaping it and trimming it and getting bits in the right places.

And with The Devils Pocketbook, that's the first time I've really seriously gone back

in and I added a couple of chapters and changed a bit of the flow of the story,

which meant that I had to go back into each chapter and then change it like peaks

and troughs and all this kind of stuff.

And that was at a point where I was like, this book's ready to go.

And then I had some very good feedback from two very trusted

and learned people and they said, maybe have a look at this bit.

And then I was like, okay.

Yeah, actually I see your point.

And when I changed it and then reread it, I was just like, fuck, that was genius.

But yeah, but it's also knowing when to stop.

Because sometimes you can edit the soul out of something if you keep

on chipping away bits and bobs.

And yeah, it's just knowing when to let the party finish and, carry

on instead of keep flogging it.

And is that something you feel with experience you've got better

at, or is it something that you still rely on beta readers and the editors

to say, enough Ross, step away?

I think I've got better at knowing when a book is finished.

I still do love to tinker every now and then when I, you know, even if I

reread something or someone messages me and says, I did think maybe about this.

But like people that I know that are just like, oh yeah, maybe what about this bit?

And I'm like, Hm.

And because most of my stuff is well, has been through Amazon, I can quickly just

change the document and then resubmit it.

And the next ones that get printed will have that in it.

But yeah, I know now when a book is done and it's, I'd say probably

the first two books, I was a little bit like, oh, is it ready?

I don't know if it's ready yet and I'll keep on going at it.

But then luckily I save all my drafts.

So if I've messed one up, I can just go back to the first

one and be like, that's better.

But yeah it's a kind of ongoing area of growth.

But I feel that the last two books have been very, that's it, I know that's done.

The Devil's Pocketbook I've had done for a while now, and it's just gestating at

the minute, but like I haven't thought about, oh actually, let me change that.

To me, that book is the best book I've written so far.

Which is lovely because if it wasn't I'd be like, aww.

One thing I wanted to return to was where you refer to, the

feedback from trusted friends.

I was just wondering, how did those people become the go-to people?

What is it in your head that makes a good beta reader?.

I find this quite a challenging question sometimes because there

are beta readers that I, and I'm not insulting anyone here,

like to blow smoke up your arse.

And they're like, this is the best thing.

This is the best thing you've done.

This, the best thing you've written.

I absolutely loved it.

It was absolutely stunning.

And they all serve an amazing purpose.

I love them.

But you need to find people that are going to be brutally honest.

And Gemma Amor, who's been on this before.

I sent her one of my previous books to read and she came back with some

amazing, like she read the first couple of chapters and then came

back to me and was like, this bit just really causes me some issues.

And then she kind of gave me some evidence of this, like through some

people that she'd spoken to or heard talk about the particular issue.

And, you know, I think Gemma was a little bit concerned, like worried about telling

me because we'd only known each other for a year or so, like online and stuff.

And I was like, no, I that's what I want to hear.

If something's not right, or something's just sounds odd or

not, that's what I want to know.

And it's more the kind of beta readers that I use are authors

that I really admire and appreciate their kind of word smithery.

And how they write and how they do stuff.

And I know, I know that they'll be honest.

And likewise, I have beta read like, quite a lot of stuff.

And again, I will give constructive feedback.

It's not like this is absolutely rubbish.

It's more, I think maybe this character...

and sometimes it might even be that I think character

should be a different gender.

I'll be like, this character is really good, but why don't you

have a female play that character?

Because it comes across a little bit better.

And it so just little bits like that.

Sometimes they use it, sometimes they don't and that's what, that's

the whole point of doing it.

You know, you can have a look at areas and decide.

And I've had stuff back that people have marked up on a word document and sometimes

I'm like, yeah, that's a really good idea.

Other times I'm like, no, I'm going to keep that line.

I know you find that offensive, but I'm going to keep it because I really like it.

It's knowing that balance because there's a lot of people out

there that if you said, I've got book can you, can you read it?

Lots of people will say, yes, I'll read it just because I want a free book.

Not because they are looking at your work critically.

And I get that.

I don't have that many super fans.

I don't have any fans probably, but I think that the bigger name

you get, the more of that kind of blowing smoke effect you get.

Unless you surround yourself with a core group of people that you really

trust and that will have your back.

And that you're not going to get offended if they come around to you and

say actually I didn't think it worked.

As long as I can give you constructive feedback and criticism.

Yeah.

So that's all you can ask for really?

Yeah.

And do you find it it's useful that, um, it sounds like the beta readers you

use at the moment are your peer group.

And so, you know they're people that are going through the entire

process themselves and understand the creative process, not just

as a reader, but as a creator?

Yeah.

I think that helps.

And with The Devil's Pocket Book, I had a very well-renowned author

look at it and then he gave this feedback and I was like, now I'm

not gonna not look at that feedback.

So I was like, yeah okay, I'll have a look.

But yeah, and it's peers that you know.

And, like Gemma is a Bram Stoker nominated author herself.

And and a few of the other beta readers I use have either

won or nominated for awards.

So I know that they know what they're talking about.

And I think that, especially, I don't know about many other

genres because I write horror.

But the groups that I swim in are very supportive of each other and

give a lot of time and encouragement.

And I do likewise when all that kind of dumpster fire happens on Twitter

and stuff, I stay out the way.

I'm like, I don't need to know about any of that.

But yeah, it's finding your group people and keeping them close to hand.

So it sounds, I just want to clarify if this is correct.

But with the beta readers, your, your peer group they're very good on the structural,

on the characterization, the actual plot beats, and the story elements, and

any controversial elements within that.

And then you use your editor for the more proofreading side of grammatical,

punctuation and spelling errors.

And

Sometimes, yeah, sorry.

I sometimes get my editor will sometimes help me do a developmental edit early on.

So I'll write it, I'll edit it a few times, get it to a third or fourth draft,

send it to him to say developmental edit.

Have a look and see if there's any areas that I can expand on and I'll get

that back and then I'll change bits.

And then it'll go to the kind of beta readers.

They'll read it and then be like, okay, this needs this and this.

And then it is a final edit where it's down to yeah, commas and exclamation

marks and all that kind of stuff.

And it still surprises me that I missed stuff every single time.

I'll miss something and I'm like, oh, bloody hell.

I'm like, again, I forgot to close speech marks.

And you've used the same editor for the last few books.

You've had the same editor for a while now, and how did that relationship start?

I first met him cause I I run a magazine with two other

guys called Storgy magazine.

It's like a literary magazine and we interview authors and book

reviews and we publish short fiction each week and stuff like that.

I first met him through there and we published one of his

stories in an anthology.

He then set up his own kind of little press and I'd written a story

that he accepted for publication.

And then just got talking that way and he gave me editing notes on my short

story and I was oh these quite good and struck up a friendship from that.

And yeah, I've used them on the last well, all the books really.

And he's a brilliant writer himself.

He's called Joseph Sale.

So that's been good.

And one of the books in particular, my book Tome.

It's set in America, so Joseph's English, so we put it all together, edited it all.

I basically wanted English spelling even though was going to be in America, much

to the consternation of many Americans.

But I that's what I wanted, so I was going to have.

But then once he'd done his edit, I then got an American editor to

go through it and just look at Americanization, like faucet and

flashlight and all that kind of stuff.

I know, but I forget.

And I'll just write torch for some reason.

They're like, oh, do you mean flashlight?

I was like, yes, that's the one.

Yeah.

But yeah, it's interesting.

And I will probably need an American to look at the next one because the trilogy

is set in America, in a fictitious town.

But I'll need someone to go through it with that American eye on it.

Yeah.

And I've, that the new book has been put out through a

publisher, which is crazy for me.

So like I have to check it up the day that I was like, am I editing this myself?

I have to pay my editor to look at it and then do that or do you

have editors that you go through?

And they were like no, no, no.

no.

We'll send it to our editor.

And I was like, oh, okay.

So it saves me some money.

I was like, yeah, that's fine.

But, yeah, so that's interesting cause I'll work with a different editor and

it'll be interesting to see how they work and operate and and yeah, and I guess the

higher you climb, the different editors you work with all the time, which is..

And with this traditional publishing deal that you've got

going through at the moment.

Are they doing a lot of promotion for you or are you still promoting your own work?

Are you still in charge?

I will be promoting my own work.

They will be doing a lot as well.

Their publicist called Sadie Hartman is very good.

And they've like they've redesigned the covers.

Got an amazing cover artist called Daniel Sara, who's done a huge piece of artwork.

So each book, if you put them together, we'll make up a whole bigger picture.

And they will do their own marketing, all that kind of stuff.

And it will be released in limited hardback, paperback and sign numbered

editions and all this, it just blows my mind that is happening.

Especially when I'm used to just doing it all by myself.

Yeah.

well it's good though.

I will, I'll still be pushing it when it comes out, I'll still be tweeting

about it and all that kind of stuff.

I wanted to ask, how comfortable are you in promoting your own work?

Is that a skill that you've developed over time?

Or have you always enjoyed it?

I don't mind it.

I know a lot of authors hate it.

But I've always grown up with a father that said, if you want

something, you've got to ask for it and you don't get anything for free.

So I was like, okay.

And that served me well with Storgy magazine because some of the authors

that I got to interview, just because I was just like finding out their

kind of editors and all that kind of stuff, and then emailing them and be

like, I'd really to interview him.

Can you get him to me?

And I interviewed like Chuck Paluhniuk, who is like my favorite writers.

And yeah, James Frey as well.

He did A Million Little Pieces, like all these amazing authors, because

I was just, you know, I don't care.

I'll ask anybody anything.

I'll be like, can you do this or not?

It's either yes or no.

And you miss all the shots you don't take.

So for me, like just putting tweets out and promoting my work, I just love it.

I'm quite good at or not very good, but I can make stuff look pretty.

So if I get a nice quote, I can make it look all nice and all the jazzy stuff.

And put that out and stuff like that.

But I do promote other people's work more than my own though, which is probably

a curse, but I love it because I read so much that I'm just like, everyone

should read this book and buy this book and then check out his other stuff.

But that's who I am, I'm a giver, like I like to help people and people have helped

me so much in my short career so far.

It's only right that I should help others any way I can.

Makes the world a better place.

I think as well, like some of the authors that I speak to or interact

with on like a daily basis, like sometimes I have to pinch myself.

I've got these people like numbers on my phone and and I'm just

like, we're just chatting and I'm just like, they must be so busy.

That they have a little bit of time to know who I am and to interact with me.

I'm just like, when I get to that stage, I am doing exactly the same thing.

Yeah.

But it means so much to other people.

Absolutely.

And I think it's that attitude of lifting up the people when

you've gone through the journey.

You've climbed the ladder.

You then lean down and you help the others up rather than just dropping

the ladder or pushing it away.

No, no, No.

I'm in the ivory tower by myself.

Go away, stay back.

And one thing I did want talk about, cause you mentioned it in a few

different ways there, of social media.

And in 2021 using social media as a writer, do you feel

it's essential in any way?

Or do you think it's more of a hindrance?

I would say it depends how you use it.

I probably would say, and I don't really do Facebook.

Like I have a Facebook page.

I don't really understand Facebook.

I haven't bothered learning it.

I had it years ago and I used to be like obsessed.

I, this is 15 years ago and I was just like, yeah, that was amazing.

All my friends I went to school with.

And and then I just I quit it.

I don't know.

Yeah, probably about 15 years ago I just said, oh, they

need this anymore as rubbish.

It's just people showing me what they had for lunch.

So I don't use that.

Instagram, I use quite a bit.

But the main one I use, I've got YouTube channel, so I do interviews

and book reviews and stuff on.

But Twitter is the main one that I use.

And I think it is probably the main reason people know who I am.

I think I sell a lot of books through Twitter.

There's a thing called bookstagram on there.

Some of my books will appear on there and people will be, oh, I just bought

this because this person said this and I think YouTube is very good.

Especially these kinds of books shows that do author interviews and all

this kind of stuff and book reviews.

And I've had, especially for me, I think I'm more known probably in the other

side of the pond than here, because the amount of book reviews I've had over

there from American kind of book tubers and stuff like that, is just insane.

And people are like, oh, I need to get this cause you said it.

And they've got like 20,000 people following them and I'm

just like okay, yeah, that's cool.

But yeah, it's interesting.

It does depend how you use it.

And Twitter is probably the most used app on my phone.

That's what I use to engage with people.

To have a little presence.

But luckily like these apps now.

I sound really old.

Like all have links to other things, so if I put something on Twitter

it would appear on Instagram.

So I only have to do one post and yeah, it does them all.

But yeah, I think, yeah, sometimes it's a curse.

Like you look at it and you think like you see some people, like what

they put out there and stuff, and I'm just like, oh my goodness, I

can't believe you just said that.

And then there's been like a big mass kind of pile on and I think what the

issue is that sometimes it allows idiots to say whatever they want

and it pollutes the kind of goodness that is there, if you can find it.

But there, there are ways to especially on Twitter, you can mute your

feed from particular individuals.

You don't have to see all that rubbish.

And I normally, I just stay well away from everything.

Cause most of the time it's not battle I need to enter into unless it's

something that I find very offensive.

And then I will, yeah, I will not probably go and do anything serious, but I will be

like, okay, I know that person said that.

So that is a card marked in my opinion.

And be friends with the block button.

That's the one.

Now just two last questions.

I have a belief that writers continue to grow and develop with

every single story that they write.

And I was just wondering from the last project that you finished versus

the one that you're on now, is there anything that you're consciously

aware of that you learnt writing your last project that you're now

applying to your current project?

Was it the last project where you started that revision process?

Yes, it was, yes.

That's something I'll have learned and I've taken that through.

I think what I've learned with maybe the last two books is there's

more importance of rounding out a particularly evil character.

So maybe even giving them an extra chapter, but from their point of

view and to highlight how they or why they are the way they are.

Especially in this particular book I'm writing about because there's a group

of five people that are very horrible.

I could write it and tell you that these are horrible people.

And that my main protagonist thinks they're horrible people,

but that is quite one dimensional.

And I would like to have, you know, chapters from their points of view,.

Where you can find out for yourself how horrible they are, but also realize

how they became the way they are.

And they're not completely evil, even though they're not very nice.

But yeah, that's the kind of thing I've developed over the last two books

that continues to evolve as I go.

But just giving enough people enough air time, I think in a book.

Cause some of my books have been quite insular, just revolving

around two or three characters.

But the bigger kind of books of mine, I have made sure each person is given

their own enough page time that you can come up with your own assumptions

about them instead of me telling you what you should feel about them.

Yeah.

In a roundabout way.

I think that answers...

Yeah, no, that's good.

Yeah.

It's giving more development and more airtime to your antagonist to understand

why they are who they are rather than just having a one-note villain.

So yeah, absolutely.

And my final question, You did mention the Steinbeck advice

earlier, just get the thing written.

Cause my final question is, is there one piece of advice you keep

returning to when you're writing?

So I think maybe that Steinbeck quote that you said earlier is one part of it, but

is there anything else that consciously, if you're going through a tricky time or

just, it helps you elevate your writing?

Is there one piece of advice that you find yourself?

I actually have it have it written down.

Oh, wow.

Yeah.

And it's next to my desk.

So it's by David Foster Wallace.

And it's a quote and it says that good fiction's job is to comfort the

disturbed and disturb the comfortable.

And I have that on my desk and I look at it every time I sit down and and that's

what I try to do with every book is yeah.

Comfort the disturbed and disturb the comfortable.

Yeah, just sit down and get the words written down is another one.

But yeah, I think they're the two really.

And I think as well, I think it was Josh Malerman that said something

to me when I was chatting to him.

And he said, I think he just reached out after I finished a book.

Cause I normally take a picture, put it on Twitter because you have to.

I put it down and he was just, he reached out and we were just chatting

in a private message and he was just like, huge congratulations.

He said, because there's only a finite amount of these

that you can do in your life.

And you've just done another one.

I was just like, yeah, that's a good point.

You know, I write a book, I don't know, so I would get two books out a year.

That's not that many books.

If you think of all the other things you do more than that in your life.

It was just like, actually, yeah.

The fact I've written like five, six books is something that should

be celebrated every time I do it.

I'm like, yes, I did another book.

I'll have a whiskey and I'll have a celebrate.

No, that's great.

That's perfect, Ross.

Thank you so much for being my guest.

And yeah, just again.

Thank you for being on the show.

Thank you very much.

That was the real writing process of Ross Jeffery.

I don't know why I called him Russell at the end there, but if you skip

back 30 seconds, I definitely do.

I have no excuse.

I've met the man.

I have got drunk with the man.

I have even touched his flesh consensually, but can I call him by his

first name when I thank him for his time?

Clearly not.

Therefore Ross, I sincerely apologize.

If you'd like to find out more about Ross and his books, you can find all

of the information on his website:

writerrossjeffrey.wordpress.com.

of the information on his website:

I do also recommend you follow him on Twitter @RossJeffery_ tell him, I sent

of the information on his website:

you, but please don't call him Russell.

of the information on his website:

Right.

of the information on his website:

That's another episode done.

of the information on his website:

We only have one more of season one, but don't worry as I start

of the information on his website:

recording season two tomorrow.

of the information on his website:

If you'd like to keep up to date with what's happening with the

of the information on his website:

podcast, please consider subscribing.

of the information on his website:

I'll be putting a trailer together for season two, once it's ready, but I have

of the information on his website:

no idea when that will actually be.

of the information on his website:

Also send me a tweet @therealwriting1 on Twitter.

of the information on his website:

I'm always open to feed back on the show and it'll be good to hear from you.

of the information on his website:

Anyway.

of the information on his website:

Until next time, my friends or...