In Part Two of When Life Falls Apart: Sharing Christ in the Middle of Trauma, George Binoka and Jeff Musgrave explore what it looks like to move from simply listening to someone in crisis to naturally and meaningfully sharing the gospel.

How do you know when it's the right time to talk about Jesus? How do you avoid being insensitive without allowing fear to keep you silent? Jeff explains why we should look for "soul needs," pray for natural openings, and introduce people to a Person—not simply present them with a plan of salvation.

The conversation also tackles the difficult question, "Why would a loving God allow this?" and shows how the biblical story of sin, suffering, the cross, and the resurrection gives us a framework for understanding pain. Jesus is not the perpetrator of our suffering; He is the Savior who entered into our suffering and ultimately promises to deliver us from it.

But the conversation doesn't stop with helping others. George and Jeff discuss how Christians can allow their own suffering to become a testimony of genuine hope. Even when our candle is burning in the middle of our own darkness, God can use that light to reach others.

Finally, Jeff gives five practical ways to help someone walking through tragedy: bring a meal, ask how you can pray, listen more than you talk, keep showing up, and ask God for eyes to see the opportunities He puts in your path.

When someone else's candle has gone out, Christians are called to carry their own candle into the darkness—and bring them the light of Jesus.

Some people think that the only people who can walk into a hospital

and be spiritual and know the right thing to say are pastors.

And that's just not true. What your pastor does when he walks into the middle

of a traumatic event, when he walks into a crisis,

when he walks into the hospital,

what he's doing shepherding people through the truth,

lovingly, caringly, that's something

All of us as Christians have to be able to do because Jesus said,

How will you know them by their love for one another?

And God gives the tools in His Word to equip all of us to shepherd people

in those exact circumstances. This is the second part of last week episode

on how to light somebody else's candle that has gone out,

how to help in a time of trauma and crisis,

and how to especially when you're helping an unbeliever,

how to

respond to that situation and see the open doors that God has in it for the gospel.

Welcome to Gospel Talks Podcast where we help Christians all over

the world become more effective in relational evangelism and discipleship.

My name is George Binocca and with me today is Jeff Musgrave,

the author and founder of the Exchange.

Jeff, how you doing?

Doing well, doing it we got a cool down around here,

George. I'm I'm pretty sure you're gonna be jealous because ~ we

we dropped fifty degrees in twenty-four hours the other day.

Went from a hundred down to the fifties in ~ in one twenty four hour span.

So it's it's it's

Wow. Yeah.

actually beautiful here. We're we're having a great time.

I am so happy for you.

Yeah, and you're not.

I can see it in your eyes.

Just kidding, just kidding. All right.

Well,

boy, I I am really, really enjoying this episode.

It it's it's ministered to me.

It's it's helped me be a better believer and friend to unbelievers

who are going through a time of crisis.

And last week we kind of left off,

you know, talking about how to listen like Jesus listens.

And this week we're moving in a different direction,

you know.

You're in this traumatic situation.

How do you know when it's the right time to talk about the gospel?

We talked about soul needs, but it's tricky.

I mean, like in a hospital room or a crisis like when's the right time?

Yeah, yeah, that's interesting.

I I I think I might have told this story before,

but I had a ~ a guy who made a profession of being a believer,

but I think my wife and I both wondered if is this guy genuinely a believer?

Well, this time went on and he ended up in

Mm.

the hospital. I went to see him,

we had a good conversation, and it was rather surfacey.

D does that make sense? It w it was

Hmm. Yeah,

yeah, yeah.

It was

kind of almost he was giving me the platitudes,

you know, and and ~

Mm.

well a a couple ~ weeks, maybe a month later,

he was back in the hospital. Both times he had fallen and hurting himself.

And ~ this time I'm showing back up again and he is ~ acknowledging

and he looked at me and he said,

Pastor, he said, I I I gotta I gotta tell you something.

It's not just that I fell and hurt myself.

I

I have a drinking problem and and I

Mm.

I I've I've been drinking and I don't know how to stop.

Now you see w what happened was he we went away from talking about the

the pain in his knee or whatever it was we were dealing with.

And he he began to genuinely open up and tell me about

the the real d deep needs that were in his life.

Mm.

And I I I feel like sometimes we have to be

We have to be willing to wait till we get there.

It's not to say that you can't get to the gospel earlier.

I'm just simply saying that when someone clearly states to me,

I've got a sin problem, I need help in knowing how to deal with it,

now I can I'm I'm I can go to the gospel without any difficulty at all.

And so I I

I feel like that's why we aim at soul issues is so that people can start telling

us about what's really going on.

And then it's like they're almost asking us to tell them about Jesus.

Now

Hmm. Yeah.

I do think I need to be careful here,

George, because I'm not I'm

Okay.

not saying that that happens in every situation.

I'm just saying when people are going through traumatic events,

that that

Mm.

happens more often than you would think.

Hmm. Hmm. Yeah, I I I agree with you.

you know, we call them the soul knees when they start exposing them,

you know, you there's a level of trust in you,

the openness they're demonstrating.

But we can, I think, and maybe I'm asking,

can we become so afraid of being that insensitive person

and accidentally jumping too soon,

that we never actually share the hope.

They need most and how do we avoid becoming like that?

You know, I I think that being self-conscious,

being inhibited, will always get in the way of the gospel.

It will always, because

Hmm.

what we're doing is we're not thinking about that person as much as

we are about ourselves. Am I doing this right?

Am I and as as long as I have my eyes pointed this way.

It's gonna be very, very difficult for me to be able to help that person.

So what we have to ask God for is Lord help me to lose myself and

my own words in my head and concerns about myself

and and genuinely be concerned about this this person that has the need.

I I

I I think that frankly, sometimes we use the phrase insensitive

as maybe I I I I'm afraid that this wouldn't be appropriate.

It's it's almost like that's an excuse.

Our real problem is fear. I'm afraid.

Yeah. Yep.

And ~

and we we we have to kind of name what it really is.

Yep. You know, I'll say this about ministry,

about being a Christian, having hard conversations,

and presenting people with the truth in a hard time,

is that most of the time that I think,

okay, I begrudgingly, I know I have to tell them this truth from

the Bible right now, and I'm gonna lose them.

And I just already know that going into this.

And then I sit down with them and I say,

Hey, did you know that Jesus, this is what he says and what you're saying.

Is not the truth, and this is the real truth and hope.

Every time in ministry that I thought I was gonna lose somebody doing that,

most of the time I didn't. Most of the time

Yeah, that's good.

you get them back. Yeah. And so

That's good.

truth is powerful. Just unleash it on you know at the right time in

the right place in the right manner.

And I actually think

that and I've been there, George.

I know exactly what you're talking about.

I'm not supposed to say that, am I?

I can't imagine how that feels.

the ~ the

I love that. You're awesome. ~

the I think sometimes we tend to think negatively when God wants us

to think this truth could really change their entire life,

you know?

yeah.

And

I I think maybe if we could walk into circumstances with a little more hope,

God opened this door for a reason.

Do you know what I mean? I I and the reason I say I know

Yes, yes.

what you're talking about is because I I have had those thoughts before

a conversation and been surprised afterwards and God did have a plan to do it well.

Yep. Yeah, I think you're I think you're exactly right.

So I guess what does it look like to naturally make this transition

and from listening to sharing Christ?

'cause I wanna give people the practical like as much rubber rubber meets

the road kind of thing.

Well, I I think praying for and watching for those natural openings that we've been

talking about with the f with the guy that I talked about earlier.

I was actually this was the second tr traumatic event that happened in

his life that finally the open door came.

And I think some sometimes

Mm.

the reason we don't find the open door 'cause it hasn't come yet.

And so I think

Mm.

I think praying about it and watching for it is really,

really

important. I I think that the the real issue is we're

not talking about a plan of salvation.

So in other words, I got to think in terms of what am I actually going

to talk to them about. And what I'm going to talk to them about is

how Jesus can help their need.

And to to me, that's if if you've got a real need and we've we've discussed that

need

It is very natural for me to say,

well, let me help you see how Jesus can help this.

So it's about a person of salvation,

not a not a plan of salvation.

Yeah. Yeah.

And if we can help

ourselves remember that, I think it is so much more natural to

get to a place where I can introduce them to the real Jesus than it is for

me to get to the place to go through my story.

my gospel spiel. And so I

Yeah.

think that really helps me a lot if I think about it that way.

So let's go a little deeper here because a lot of people might get this question.

You sit down with somebody in a hospital or in a tough situation or whatever,

and they go, Why would a loving God allow this?

How do you begin answering that question?

I I start by saying, you know,

when when I see the world in the beginning,

and when I see the world in the end,

it's a totally different world.

There's there's

Mm.

no sin, there's no pain, there's no suffering,

there's no death. And ~ you know,

I wouldn't say this necessarily right then in the room,

but that's Genesis

One through three, that's Revelation 21 and on.

I mean, that that's the two ends.

The Bible tells us that death and the curse

Mm.

and weeds and thorns and sweat and and all of the ugly stuff of life came into

the world when sin came into the world.

And helping

Mm.

a person recognize this pain you're going through.

Is not because God is loving. The pain you're going through is because there's

a we live in a simple world and there's a lot of ugly things.

What God wants to do is number one,

walk through this painful life with us,

and then number two, give us a life that is not painful.

And and kind of helping a person recognize that the source of

our suffering is not God.

The source of our suffering is the sin cursed world that we're in,

and that Jesus is the savior from our suffering,

not not the perpetrator of the suffering.

Does does does that help?

Yeah.

Yeah, that I think that's a great because you're telling the story

of why the circumstance they're in they are in and how Jesus is gonna resolve it,

how he has resolved it. You know,

y it's it's the biblical way to frame this.

I think about Isaiah fifty three.

It says, By his scars we are healed and there are people we meet

as Christians that have scars.

They are in pain. How does the cross change the way Christians understand pain?

How we relieve it?

You know, you were talk you were talking about scars.

I heard a song the other day. the only scars in heaven are the scars

on his hands and his forehead and his feet.

~

Mm.

he he's he's the scar remover,

not the scar giver. Does does does that make sense?

Yeah. Yeah.

And so helping

people see that that Jesus literally suffered in our

plays ultimately to remove our suffering.

~

Yeah.

And we're studying through the book of Hebrews right now in our church.

And so Hebrews is kind of on my brain,

but in Hebrews chapter four and verse 14 it says,

since therefore the children share in flesh and blood,

in other words, the the stuff that can get hurt,

you know, we call ourselves mortals.

Which is interesting

Yeah.

because it it literally has the name death built right into ~ who our existence.

Jesus became a mortal. ~ he took on flesh and blood.

~ and it says he himself, and I love that phrase,

he himself, likewise partook some took partook of some things that through death

or the excuse me, I read that totally wrong.

It's not the word sum, it's the word same.

He partook of the same thing. So we have flesh and blood.

He took on flesh and

Yeah.

blood so that through death he might destroy the one who has the power of death.

That is the devil. And again,

Mm.

we just have to keep in our brain:

God is good. It's the devil that is bad.

And ~

Rade.

the the the devil's the perpetrator of sin.

He's he that's really the genesis of where all the suffering has come from.

And then later on in verse 18,

that was verse 14 of chapter two,

later on it says, because he himself has suffered when he was tempted,

he is able to help those who are being tempted.

And the per perp the the idea of the word tempted here is not tempted to do wrong,

it's that we're going through trials,

we're going through suffering.

And because he suffered, he knows how to help people when they're suffering.

Mm.

And ~ I I love that reality that we can just help people

see that Jesus literally came and took the pain so that number one,

he can walk with us in this pain.

And number two, ultimately ~ take us totally away from pain the the pain.

And that's that's really part of the pain picture of giving people

the gospel is helping them to see that God wants to rescue them not just from

the sin of this world, but from this world.

He wants to put us in a in an in a world that lives forever where he will

be with us forever.

Amen. you know, as we're rounding this topic off and getting ready to conclude,

there's an area where we could neglect that I don't want to neglect because there

could be people listening right now that they are Christians,

they are laborers in the harvest,

but they're actually the ones suffering.

So what if I'm the one walking through trauma?

What if you're the one walking through trauma?

What about that?

Can I back up just a little bit and answer make another statement

and then get there? I I'm I'm doing this on purpose.

~ when I'm on a mission trip in a third world country,

it's not comfortable. It's it's it's usually,

I mean, there are smells that I'm not used to smelling,

there are sights I'm not used to s seeing,

there are feelings of of heat or

extreme cold and I mean it there's it's an environment that is hostile

to my comfort zones. And I there's a there's a piece of me that likes

not the pain and the suffering,

but that it is a constant reminder.

I'm I'm here for a purpose. I came to do a mission.

And I think sometimes God lets us live in a world that is filled with pain.

Because he's trying to remind us this is not the world we were made for.

Yeah.

We're exiles here. I mean, literally,

we're we we really don't belong here.

We were created for eternity. And ~ and the

Mm.

longing, the Bible uses this word,

in this we groan. Literally, in this circumstance,

in this body, in this pain, we we groan.

But it's it's

That groaning is literally reminding us that this world is not my home.

I'm just passing through. My real hope is the hope of heaven.

And I'm my job on earth is number one,

to live in that real hope. And then number two,

in the midst of my own pain, I can still help others who are in pain because they

don't have the hope of heaven that I share.

And some sometimes some of the most powerful witnesses are the people who are dying.

I you know, I was at your church w before way before you were the pastor there,

and ~ I one of the men that I met there,

gray with cancer. I mean, you you he had the the death look

About him. And we always give to everybody a 30-day challenge

and a 10-year challenge. And the 30-day challenge is then the next 30 days,

I'm gonna ask somebody to do this Bible study with me.

And the 10-year challenge is in the next 10 years,

I'm going to it touch as many people for Jesus as I possibly can.

And he came up to me with a knowing look in his face.

And he said, I took that 10-year challenge.

Now, he and I both knew, unless God worked a miracle,

he wasn't going to live another 10 years.

Probability was

Mm.

is that he wasn't going to live another year.

But he was committed that in this death sentence I'm in,

I'm going to point as many people to life as I possibly can.

And I I just really believe that the the testimony of hope and life in the midst of

Suffering. We started this talking about when your candle's gone out.

Well,

Yes.

suffering as a Christian is not the same as suffering as as as

not being a Christian. And your candle can still burn brightly in the middle

of your suffering. And that's that's what I would want to ~ ask everybody

to to pray for. Lord, if I have to suffer,

will you help my candle burn bright?

And will you make the contrast

open doors for me to be able to help other people.

So obvious question, but I'm asking it because I don't want to leave anything

on the table. Can our own suffering actually become a testimony how?

Yeah, yeah. And and I I that is exactly what I'm talking about is when

we are willing to genuinely hold on to hope.

By the way, hope is not boy, I feel good today.

hope is ~ literally l looking towards something I don't yet have.

I mean that's the reason we call it hope.

Mm.

If

~ and and so when I am living in the middle of pain or suffering or whatever,

and and I am living with with that genuine obvious hope,

literally ~ God can use that in a powerful way.

And one of the things that I think we all have to remember is whereas God

is not the perpetrator of pain,

he

Is the one who gives it purpose.

He is the one who

Mm.

gives it meaning. And your

Mm.

pain and your suffering is not meaningless.

And if you can live with the real purpose in mind,

it will make a drastic impact.

So, yeah, all by itself, your own suffering can be the testimony.

And then as people are around you,

God's going to give you an opportunity to talk about it.

Hmm. Have you ever actually seen this where God's used broken believers

to reach broken people?

Yeah, yeah. I I think I don't know how many times I have watched people

who are not only broken but ~ literally passed off the scene.

I I have a story of a man that I led to the Lord ~ two hundred and eighty nine days

before he died. And ~ he he had no idea he was sick when he trusted Christ,

but

~ he he actually died about a month and a half after his cancer diagnosis.

But he lived with hope the entire way through his ~ cancer.

And at his funeral, I had the privilege of giving the gospel

and literally reading from ~ his own words in his own Bible study book,

and ~ saw multiple people come to Christ

Mm.

because.

of of that man's life of hope in the midst of even dying.

so yeah, and I've I've got other names up here,

Mitch and Eric and Jeremy and Miles and Anna and Rob and each of those a story

of of broken people helping someone in pain and in the process of doing so,

watching them come to Jesus. Over and over and over we watch that happen.

Yeah. Yep, you see it a lot in life ministry.

Suppose somebody listening right now has a coworker,

neighbor, family member who just experienced tragedy.

So what's five practical things they could do this week for them?

Yeah. Well, it's interesting. ~ for those of you who are listening,

George wrote this question and then he wrote the five things down for me.

So I I've got the answers right here in front of me.

No problem. I can hand I can handle this one.

Sorry.

No, the the the reason I said that is because one of them was ~ bring a meal.

And last night Anna and I took a meal to some people in our church that

are having a rough time right now.

And had a had an opportunity to have a meaningful real conversation with someone

who is not walking with the Lord.

And ~ and I I think that the reason I kind of joked a little bit about that

is because these five things are real genuine steps that

are going to provide open doors for you.

So the first one is to to bring a meal.

I I think asking someone, hey,

can I can I pray with you about this?

I I think that's a really, really powerful way.

So in other words, not just praying for them,

but asking them if you can pray.

How you know what's what's this one thing that I can really pray for

you about as you're going through this?

those are just really great ways to get into conversations with them.

when you're trying to help them,

don't forget.

listen more than you talk. it it's it's that listening that's going

to show them that you care. You can literally speak all you want to

and not really care. but you can't listen without caring.

And then keep showing up. I I I don't know whether you've observed this or not,

George, but when there's a great need

Most people are willing and desirous to jump in and help.

But when there's a long need,

Mm.

you w you you use up all your help really quick.

I mean, it it's

Right.

it's it's like everybody goes away.

~ what we want

Mm.

is we want to be able to come in and make a difference and then we're everything's

good. Now let's go on to life.

Yeah, yeah.

And ~

and that's just not the way suffering works.

And there are many times when everybody else is gone and you keep showing up,

you're the one that's going to make a difference.

One of the dear friends of our ministry is a woman who got saved doing

the Exchange Bible study. She had some major issues going on in her life.

And part of the issues that she had was eating disorders,

drug and alcohol addictions. And so she has a heart.

For people who are struggling.

And ~ she tells me, she says, you know,

most of the time when I saddle up to someone who's really suffering,

they don't want me around. They,

they, it's like I'm I'm kind of happy in my own misery.

And she said, they

Mm.

they just can't get rid of me.

I just I I

Mm.

keep showing up. I'm gonna bring them a pie next week.

I'm gonna I'm I'm just going to keep helping.

And eventually.

I get a chance to talk to them about the Lord.

And I don't know how many. I I mean,

literally, George, this woman has sent us 30 or 40 stories in

the last 10 years of people that she's led to Christ just simply by showing

up when everybody else disappears.

And then I think more than anything else,

just always be asking God to give you eyes to see.

The opportunities he brings in your path.

If indeed the harvest is plentiful and the laborers are few,

the reason people are getting saved is because there's not enough people telling

them, then that means that there are opportunities in my pathway.

And so if I if I can just number one,

be looking for them. But then number two,

I always pray it this way Lord,

would you make it obvious I'm a little dense?

And just ask God, you know, God,

God help me to be able to genuinely see it.

Hmm. There's there's two truths that we hold distinctly as Christians that

I think really enable a Christian to go through very trying times with a lot of joy.

Heaven and the resurrection. How I'm just curious if those two truths,

how how do those practically change the way we comfort hurting people?

How do they change the way we go through?

Hard things as as believers.

Yeah, I I'm I'm telling you, George,

this question we could do two different podcasts off of.

And maybe w maybe we ought to write that one down.

Yeah.

the topic that you wrote at the top of this one is eternal perspective.

And Randy Alcorn, probably my favorite author,

~ has a ministry that he entitles Eternal Perspective.

And I I

Mm.

I it has drastically impacted my life.

So these are really,

Mm.

really important dis topics to me.

I I think

I've we've all heard this statement.

That guy is is too heavenly minded to be of any earthly good.

And

Mm.

and I think to myself, you know,

I think most people get that that statement backwards.

I think

Mm.

the real problem is we are too earthly minded to be of any heavenly good.

And that

Yeah.

we we we literally live with our heads in the dirt and and you know thinking about

earthly stuff.

As opposed to living with our eyes on the sky,

~ Jesus says, Lift up your heads,

your redemption draws nigh. Colossians Paul said,

~ set your minds on things that are above and not on things that are on the earth.

And the hope of heaven is only genuinely help is when it's hope,

when we've got our eyes set on it.

So I I think we the

Heaven really does help when we really do see it as genuine hope.

and then the the resurrection,

this one is so powerful because I I live my life today in him.

Colossians chapter three, verse two is the one that says to set your affections,

your mind on things that are above.

But in verse three, he says, For you have died.

And your life is hidden in God.

And literally, what he's saying to us is that ~ my sin was so bad it deserved death.

And Jesus

Mm.

died in my place. And and the Bible says that when I took him,

I literally got the benefits of my own death before I died.

And so I

Mm.

I have died.

in the sinful life and I have a new life.

The Bible says it this way

Mm.

if any man's in Christ, he's a new creature.

The the old things have passed away and behold the new has come.

And this new life we have is the resurrected life of Jesus.

And so the

Mm.

Jesus resurrection is not just my hope in the future that one of these days

I will have a new body and a new place to live.

But right today

I have him. I am the way, the truth,

and the life. And that life, literally,

the the next verse, verse four of Colossians three,

when Christ, who is your life,

appears, then you're going to appear with him.

That's the hope of glory. That's that's the reality of my life.

I get to literally right now let Jesus be my life and be the vitality

and the energy of my life. And

When I die, I get to spend eternity with him.

I mean it's it's the

Mm.

these two topics are the topics that oughta give Christians a hope that

no one else could possibly have.

Mm.

You've said a lot of great things today,

a lot of great truth has been spoken today,

wisdom and all that, but if somebody's listening right now who knows

a person whose candle has gone out,

what's the one thing you'd encourage them to do today?

the song says it this way: carry your candle,

run to the darkness. We we want to flee from the darkness.

We we don't want to go into dark places,

but because we have our candle,

which is Jesus Christ, he's the light of the world.

we we can go into those dark places,

we can seek out the helpless, we can c seek out the confused and

the ones whose lives are torn apart.

And we can hold out our candle and literally light their world,

bring the light of Jesus into their world.

That's that's what God has called us to.

And frankly, when we see suffering people,

that's the time frame for Christians to shine.

Hm. Well

That was an awesome episode. It was awesome for me.

it ministered to me. Thank you for those of you to listen,

subscribe and share this podcast.

And ~ I just pray that you'd go to the harvest with this knowledge,

with these truths.

And be able to minister meaningfully in these situations.

And don't think I just call a pastor when this happens.

Sometimes you can't.

Yeah.

Sometimes you're the only one.

Sometimes it's you and God put you there on purpose.

And so now's the time to grab onto these and train and prepare because

I think for all of us in life,

we all know somebody or ourselves who will one day be in this exact boat.

So pray to the Lord of Harvest that He send forth laborers.

We love you guys. We'll see you next week.