Vikki Wright is the director of PhD Life Coach and offers professional coaching and training for PhD students and academics. She also hosts the PhD Life Coach podcast. Up until 2022 though Vikki was a full professor of Higher Education at the University of Birmingham in the UK, with a research background Sport and Exercise Sciences, then shifting to more of a teaching focus.

Vikki shares her interesting journey from full professor to becoming a life coach. The conversation covers her career transitions, dealing with ADHD, the importance of self-awareness, along with self-compassion, curiosity and having realistic ambitions. She also shares role-based time blocking as an approach for effective self-management. These practical tools and mindset changes can be useful for us all to help us take more control of our lives and careers. Vikki also offers insights into her programs and coaching approaches for PhD students and academics.

Overview

00:00 Intro

00:29 Episode Introduction 

03:10 Guest Introduction

03:27 Academic Journey and Career Transitions

03:56 Challenges in Research and Shift to Teaching

07:29 The Teaching Path to Full Professor...and Pandemic Reflections

11:27 Discovering Coaching and Personal Growth

17:37 Understanding ADHD and Coaching Transformation

26:35 Balancing Ambitions and Realistic Goals

30:58 Self Understanding and Being Her Own Best Boss

37:25 Recognising and Addressing Student Challenges

41:24 The Role of Self-Understanding in Supervision

45:31 Self-Compassion

49:37 Curiosity

51:35 Balancing Ambition and Realism

01:00:04 Role-Based Time Blocking

01:09:52 Final Thoughts and Resources

01:11:36 Outro

01:12.24 End

Related Links

More about Vikki’s offerings:

‘The PhD Life Coach’ podcast

‘Be your own best boss’ course

Vikki’s podcast episode on ‘How to use role based time blocking’

The PhD Lifecoach ‘The Membership’ - sign up Jan 2025

Vikki's LinkedIn page

People:

Dr Alex Conner 

Other podcasts: 

‘I have ADHD’ podcast, Kristen Carder  

The Life Coach School, Brooke Castillo

Welcome to Changing Academic Life.

2

I'm Geraldine Fitzpatrick and this is

a podcast series where academics and

3

others share their stories, provide

ideas and provoke discussions about what

4

we can do individually and collectively

to change academic life for the better.

5

Whether you're considering a

teaching focused career path.

6

Or looking to move on from academia.

7

Or dealing with ADHD or with

perfectionism and procrastination.

8

Or if you're trying to be a

better supervisor, Or you're just

9

wanting to take more control of

your own life then I think you'll

10

really love this conversation.

11

Vikki Wright is the founding

director of PhD Life Coach.

12

And offers professional coaching and

training to help PhD students and

13

academics, reduce their overwhelm,

make progress and enjoy work and life.

14

She also hosts the PhD life coach podcast.

15

Up until 2022 though.

16

Vikki was a full professor of higher

education at the University of Birmingham

17

in the UK with a research background

in sport and exercise sciences.

18

In this engaging conversation, Vikki

shares her unique career journey where she

19

started off in a research focused track.

20

Then shifted to more of a teaching

focus . And then later on, on the

21

basis of a group coaching experience,

. She retrained as a life coach.

22

A recurring theme in all that Vikki shares

is about the importance of self-awareness

23

and following your strengths.

24

We see this as she shares anecdotes

from the pandemic and her own

25

personal struggles with ADHD.

26

And she highlights the importance of

self-compassion, curiosity and really

27

having balanced, realistic ambitions.

28

These are some key mindset aspects of

learning how to manage yourself, or she

29

talks about in some programs that she

offers how to be your own best boss.

30

Towards the end of the conversation Vikki

also shares with us a very practical

31

tool of role-based time blocking

32

And if you wanted to see more of

what she offers, I can point you

33

to her website which is www dot

thePhDlifecoach, all one word, dot com.

34

Where you can find links to her podcast

and to her be your own best boss course.

35

She also runs an online

community for PhD students and

36

academics call the Membership.

37

And this is really timely because

applications for the next membership

38

opens end of January, 2025.

39

You can sign up on that

website page for the waitlist.

40

So hope you enjoy this conversation

with Vikki Wright I'm really

41

excited to have this conversation with

you, Vikki, because I think there's

42

going to be so much in it for people.

43

And one of the reasons why it'll be

really interesting to talk to you is that

44

you have an interesting career journey.

45

Can you tell us a little

bit of your background?

46

Vikki: Yes, of course.

47

Thank you so much for

having me here today.

48

So I.

49

Went to university at

18, as most people do.

50

And I never left that university

until I was a full professor

51

25 years later, I think it was.

52

Um, so I went through the same

institution from beginning to end.

53

Did my undergraduate, went straight

into a PhD, got offered a postdoc

54

and kind of went through from there.

55

And the first big transition was when I

realized after about 10 years postdoc, I

56

guess, that I didn't really love research

anymore, which is a bit of a challenge

57

at a research intensive, big university.

58

And I thought it might be the

end of my academic career.

59

And, um, I chatted with some

wonderful mentors who said, no,

60

we need people who love teaching.

61

We need people who want to do

leadership on that side of things.

62

And thankfully at that stage, my

university had a track all the way through

63

to full professor on teaching focused.

64

Geri: Do you want to say what your

research area was that you ended

65

up deciding you didn't really like?

66

Vikki: Yeah, no, absolutely.

67

So I did a sport science degree,

sport and exercise sciences.

68

My PhD was looking at how stress

affects immune function and how

69

exercise affects immune function.

70

And I loved it.

71

Don't get me wrong.

72

It's a fascinating topic area.

73

Yeah.

74

And I really loved supporting my PhD

students and all that side of it.

75

But I had realized that in order

to answer the questions I wanted

76

to answer, I was going to have

to get down and immunology of it.

77

Um, I didn't want to be doing more

cross sectional studies, looking at

78

how this measure of stress measures to

some basic measure of immune function.

79

And I actually went back and did a

postgraduate qualification in immunology

80

and infection after my PhD in a kind

of vague attempt to like retrain

81

myself into that hardcore immunology.

82

And I just didn't love the

actual doing of that research.

83

I didn't enjoy being in a laboratory,

particularly I didn't enjoy the kind

84

of careful methodicalness of it and

the making bits of kit work that

85

didn't work and all that sort of stuff.

86

Geri: But you thought you would,

obviously, to actually choose to

87

do another degree, another sort

of, um, study program in that.

88

Vikki: Did I think I would love it?

89

I don't know that I thought about that.

90

I think I thought I needed it.

91

I think I thought that in order to

answer the questions that I wanted

92

to, it was one of those decisions

that was driven more by sort of My

93

goals than by a kind of understanding

of myself at that stage I think

94

I think if I'd stopped and thought about

what gave me energy and what I yeah Good

95

at naturally and what I like spending time

doing I would have realized So careful and

96

methodical is probably not it but Yeah,

I don't recall thinking about that much.

97

It was more, right, if I'm going to

do this, I need to do it properly.

98

I need to know how to do this.

99

And I love learning.

100

So doing the course was great.

101

Um, but I was getting to a stage

where I was procrastinating writing

102

grants, not because I don't like, I

actually really like writing grants.

103

I'm a bit of a weirdo.

104

Um, I just didn't want to think about

the fact that I would If I got that

105

grant, then I would definitely be

doing this research in four years time.

106

And it was like, that's not a good sign.

107

That's not a good sign.

108

Because the worry is you might say,

109

Geri: Writing a grant and submitting

it, praying that it doesn't get funded.

110

Vikki: I like writing about it.

111

I just don't want to do it.

112

Geri: That is a good warning sign.

113

Vikki: That was a good warning sign

and thankfully that was one I actually

114

listened to and I got some good advice

from people that there would be careers

115

in academia that didn't have to involve

being a like superstar researcher.

116

Geri: Which is amazing isn't it because

there aren't many universities yet I

117

don't think that really value a teaching

path and provide people career prospects.

118

Vikki: Yeah.

119

And this was 10 years ago, right?

120

So this is, this is not even now.

121

This was, so this is the

University of Birmingham in the UK.

122

And it was one of the things that I

think they do really, really well.

123

They've had a path to professor for

quite a long time at that stage.

124

And then about nine years ago, they

introduced a Reader qualification.

125

So at the time there was, it

was lecturer, senior lecturer,

126

reader, then full professor.

127

And they didn't used to have the

reader promotion on teaching focus.

128

You had to go straight from

senior lecturer to professor.

129

So it was a route, but it was a big jump.

130

And just about the time that I was

deciding that I wanted to go that

131

way, they introduced that interim, um,

promotion, which was super useful as a

132

kind of structured career goal and things.

133

And yeah, they were brilliant.

134

So it took into account, um, not

only your own teaching practice,

135

but contributions to pedagogic

literature in some places, um, teaching

136

leadership within your institution.

137

So the sort of more organizational

management side of it.

138

And also then kind of leadership

at a national and international

139

level so we're sharing good practice

within your discipline, or, you

140

know, across more widely than that.

141

So that was what I ended up

doing for, for the rest of

142

that academic bit of my career.

143

As I say, made full professor during

the pandemic, which was, yeah, that

144

was a vibe, get finding that out

when I was on my own in a house.

145

Geri: So the champagne

celebration on your own.

146

Vikki: My friend, so one of my best

friends, Helen, um, cause this was

147

right, this was like March 2020.

148

Um, one of my best friends, Helen came

round and put a half miniature size

149

bottle of champagne on my front door,

retreated to the end of my drive.

150

Where she had one of those party poppers

and sort of yelled, congratulations

151

to them, did a party popper.

152

And I sort of waved and took my, my mini

bottle of champagne and retreated in door.

153

Geri: But that's still lovely, isn't it?

154

That, that someone actually cared and that

small gesture that you still like just

155

looking at your face and, it was special.

156

Vikki: Oh, 100%.

157

I've still got the mini bottle upstairs.

158

Um, so yeah, and I was doing that.

159

And then.

160

Then it was the pandemic and I was

head of education for my department.

161

So I was overseeing all the postgraduate

programs, all the undergraduate

162

programs, um, which as you can

imagine, we had, we had clinical

163

programs and we have a physiotherapy,

um, unit in our, in our department.

164

And so that was a whole thing, keeping

that running through the isolations

165

and everything, as you can imagine.

166

Um, and then we kind of came out the other

side of that to some extent, at least.

167

back to sort of normal.

168

And I was so like, okay, what's next?

169

Because that was like, head

down emergency measures, right?

170

There was no time to think about

career planning at that stage.

171

It was just, let's get the

department through this.

172

And it was like, okay, I'm full professor.

173

That was my goal.

174

That's what I've been working

towards all this time.

175

Um, what now?

176

And I was kind of on a trajectory

to do the senior education role.

177

So I probably would have gone for like

director of education for my college and

178

then look at like pro vice chancellor

for education or something like that.

179

That was kind of, I think

what people expected of me.

180

I think I was for good and bad.

181

I was seen as quite ambitious

and Yeah, and then I was like,

182

I don't want to do those things.

183

These jobs don't actually appeal anymore.

184

Um, and at the same time, I'd been

having coaching of my own in a group

185

setting and finding it absolutely

transformational and beginning

186

to think, Oh my goodness, the PhD

students and other academics need this.

187

And so I trained as a coach alongside

my job and Not really with the

188

intention of doing it full time.

189

Um, but because I thought it would

be really useful and interesting

190

that I could use it within my work.

191

And yeah, the more I thought about

the coaching, the more I wanted

192

to spend all my time on that.

193

And.

194

The pragmatic thing to do would probably

have been to just tootle around my

195

academic job, keep it ticking over,

take home my professorial pay, not

196

get too stressed out about anything

and do some coaching on the side.

197

I'm not very good at that.

198

I'm not very good at not kind

of driving towards something.

199

So yeah, my personal life collided with

my real life and I met a wonderful man who

200

said that he could make sure I didn't die

while I was setting up my own business.

201

Um, he would feed me and all that.

202

And so it sort of, opportunity conspired

to make it possible for me to just

203

go all in pretty much immediately,

which is what I did two years ago.

204

Geri: Brilliant.

205

So I want to come to that in a tick,

but I'm really curious about the way you

206

talked about that pandemic period and

your role in the education and all of the

207

extreme pivots that everyone had to make.

208

I think that was sort of the area in

universities that was most under pressure.

209

How did you come out of that?

210

Was it sort of like burned out and

flat or how did you manage looking

211

after yourself during that time?

212

Vikki: That, yes.

213

How did I manage looking after myself?

214

Well, to contextualize,

I was living on my own.

215

So I went nearly three months

without touching another human being

216

at the beginning of the pandemic.

217

Um, while at the same time trying

to keep all this stuff afloat.

218

And it was really hard.

219

And this is what's led on, I

think, to a lot of the coaching

220

stuff that I do now, because I

was trying to balance continuing.

221

to ensure our students had access to

the courses that they had signed up for

222

and that they'd expected and that they'd

paid for and all of that stuff with

223

also all these really conflicting needs

that the staff had in terms of what was

224

realistic to ask them to deliver under

the circumstances they were experiencing,

225

you know, at home with their kids and

often sick family members and getting

226

sick themselves and whatever, and Yeah,

I'm not gonna lie, that was really hard.

227

That was a really difficult balance.

228

And I spent an awful lot of

that time beating myself up.

229

A lot, I think it's fair to say.

230

Because I just felt like I

was letting everyone down.

231

Um, you know, the students

wanted more than we could offer.

232

The staff were thinking that I was asking

for more than was reasonable from them.

233

Because of all of that, I was

struggling to stay ahead of myself.

234

I have tendencies towards ADHD.

235

I'm not diagnosed, but

I kind of head that way.

236

Um, you know, I was regularly asking

people for things with not very much

237

notice because, partly because the

university was, like all universities

238

was making up as it went along, I

was getting stuff at last minute.

239

I was then not on top of things as

much as I would want to be and then

240

asking up people for things in a hurry

and feeling terribly bad about it.

241

I remember being in one meeting

and I can't remember what it was

242

that I said that they needed to do.

243

And A member of staff, who can be a

little bit grumpy, but he's a lovely,

244

lovely fella, um, just said it would

have been nice to have been consulted

245

on this before the decision was made.

246

I was just literally like

247

Geri: Just to interject

because you can't see.

248

At this point.

249

Vikki does a very animated

mime of how she responded.

250

Vikki: Ha ha ha ha ha!

251

Stittity!

252

So that was sort of like That was

a real, like, he just sat there,

253

and he was absolutely shocked!

254

He was just like, I'm doing my best, okay?

255

So,

256

Geri: So just a total, like, that was

the straw that broke, that broke you.

257

Vikki: It really was.

258

And so I think I, I don't know, I

think I have a, I was going to say

259

inherent laziness, that is not true,

and I've got to stop speaking like that.

260

Like that.

261

I have I can't drive

myself into the ground.

262

My brain gets distracted and I

enjoy doing too many other things.

263

And so I think what saved me was

that I have a lot of hobbies and

264

a lot of things I'm interested in.

265

And so whilst work was very much heading

towards burnout, I had enough protectives,

266

even when I was locked away like that.

267

Mm-hmm.

268

My various clubs and things had

online things going on and stuff.

269

I had enough other protective

things that kept me on the right

270

side of Broken . Yeah, yeah.

271

But I was definitely very, very exhausted

afterwards and my university were

272

wonderful once I kind of came to the

end of my tenure as head of education.

273

They gave me a year where I

didn't have any major admin roles.

274

So I was just teaching my staff and

doing bits and pieces and recovering.

275

So they were wonderful.

276

I repaid them by leaving.

277

Geri: That's really wonderful that

the university, recognized and

278

valued that and gave you that space.

279

Yeah, because it is time to

recover and just decompress a bit.

280

So I'm curious then, what was the trigger

for going into coaching for yourself?

281

Vikki: Well, it actually came about

because of a random conversation

282

with a gorgeous friend of mine.

283

So a guy called Dr.

284

Alex Conner, who worked in the

medical school at the time at the

285

university, um, he very openly has ADHD.

286

He does a lot of advocacy work

in ADHD and him and I were

287

good buddies for a long time.

288

And we were having coffee together

after the pandemic had sort of

289

slightly settled back when we were

actually allowed to see each other.

290

And yeah.

291

I can't remember what we were talking

about, but um, he was just like,

292

so anyway, when were you diagnosed?

293

And I was like, hmm, diagnosed, what now?

294

What are we doing?

295

And he was mortified because he was

like, I never diagnosed, I never, it's

296

one of my things, even if I suspect.

297

He's like, I just had no

idea, you didn't know.

298

Geri: And did you know

before he said that?

299

Did you have an inkling

before he said that?

300

Vikki: No, I just, No, I just thought

I was, Enthusiastic and useless.

301

Kind of something that sits

in between those two things.

302

Um, and I'm still not, I'm

mostly not, this is awful.

303

I'm not diagnosed because I got,

um, got referred for diagnosis, um,

304

and got put on a list, and then they

asked me to set up a consultation and

305

I never got around to emailing them.

306

And so after a year I got discharged,

which in my mind should be a diagnosis.

307

There we are.

308

Anyway, I'm mostly on the thing at

the moment that actually an enormous

309

amount of self compassion and support

at home has meant that the symptoms

310

are not Impacting my life in any

terrible way at the moment, so I've

311

decided that at the moment I'm good.

312

But, but that was where it really

started, him saying that, and me

313

being like, oh my goodness, I wonder.

314

And then I started listening to

a podcast that I would recommend

315

to anybody who thinks they might

have ADHD, called I Have ADHD.

316

Um, By a coach in the U.

317

S.

318

called Kristen Carder.

319

Um, and it was just brilliant.

320

And I just, from the off, I just,

I like, consumed this podcast.

321

And she had a group coaching program

called Focused for adults with ADHD.

322

And After quite a bit of umming and

uhring, because it was, you know, it's not

323

super cheap, um, I decided I'd go for it.

324

And yeah, it was just transformational.

325

Sitting in these webinars, watching

her coach other people who were

326

saying things that were like my

brain out loud, was just amazing.

327

And, you know, obviously the

times I got coached, Incredible.

328

But just hearing other people experiencing

the same things, and it not having to

329

mean that They needed to fix themselves

or be better or find a new planner that

330

would make it all okay or whatever.

331

Geri: Which is often the recommendation.

332

Vikki: I mean, seriously, yeah, I, that's,

you know, this will be the year I'll stick

333

to this, this will be the year I do that

or whatever had always been the thing.

334

And yeah, that was the one that

just, and I'd had coaching before,

335

but it never, ever help because.

336

I would leave a session super

enthusiastic with a plan.

337

You know, we'd gone through the

models of GROW model and all of this.

338

I've gone through my options.

339

I've made a decision.

340

I knew why I was doing

it, blah, blah, blah.

341

I'd go off.

342

I'd come back the next time.

343

And they'd be like, so did

you do any of those things?

344

I'd be like, no, I didn't do any of them.

345

Why not?

346

And I'm like, I have no idea.

347

Um, and so they'd get cross with me.

348

I'd get embarrassed.

349

And.

350

Yeah.

351

So I'd never found coaching

useful before that.

352

And then suddenly I found this

environment where it was like,

353

Oh, this all just makes sense.

354

Just makes sense.

355

And that made so much difference.

356

That was the point where I decided

that I wanted to train and that form of

357

coaching and, and do that sort of work.

358

Geri: Make that difference

for other people.

359

Vikki: Yeah.

360

A hundred percent.

361

And not just people who've got

ADHD or other neurodivergences.

362

The stuff I was seeing.

363

It was so translatable to so

many people with academia.

364

There is so much, as you know, where

are the things that we're telling

365

ourselves are just making it so

much harder than it needs to be.

366

Um, and that's not to blame ourselves.

367

It's inherently a challenging system and

a, you know, a competitive environment and

368

all that stuff, but we can end up making

it so much harder than it needs to be.

369

That was what I learned really.

370

.

Geri: So the other coaching program, and you talked about you'd gone

371

through the GROW process and for

people who don't know, it stands

372

for Goal, Reality, the Options, and

then having the Will to change or

373

motivating Why you want to change.

374

And so you got to all of that and

you went away with your option, and

375

you just said you didn't come back.

376

What do you think was going

on there for you with that?

377

What was it about that

approach that didn't work?

378

Vikki: I want to be careful because

I want it, you know, different

379

coaches work for different people.

380

Right.

381

And I'm, this was just a one

that it didn't work for me.

382

And I think the reason it didn't work

for me was because the main things we

383

talked about is what we were going to do.

384

And I am, there's one thing I'm not

short of it's ideas, plans, ways to get

385

there, the exact steps I need to take.

386

And so I could say all the right

things there in the session.

387

I could even believe.

388

I've got a plan now in the session.

389

I could, you know, but I didn't understand

why I wouldn't then follow through.

390

And not only did I not understand

it, I judged myself hugely for it.

391

So for the fact that I'd come up with

these plans, they sounded so reasonable.

392

They sounded like I, and I genuinely

wanted to do them and I couldn't

393

understand why I didn't, and that

annoyed me because not understanding

394

things just frustrates me.

395

And.

396

I made it mean that I was

just useless and lazy and ill

397

disciplined and all that good stuff.

398

And for me, the issue was that

we weren't getting to why I

399

wasn't taking those actions

400

.

And I know that's not something that's inherent to particular style of coaching.

401

So, you know, then there may be other

people who work with these models

402

who would've got to that stuff.

403

But for me, this notion of.

404

Partly the why being to do with the

ADHD, but the why also being to do

405

with all the thoughts and emotions

that I was having about those actions

406

and us not really getting to that

meant that nothing really changed.

407

Whereas The Focused Coaching Program uses

a model called the Self Coaching Model

408

which originally came out of the Life

Coach School which Brooke Castillo, it

409

is just, she, she says it too, it's a

smushed up version of CBT for a coaching

410

environment essentially, but it really

looks at what thoughts and feelings you're

411

having and how that drives your actions.

412

And it was something, I don't know,

people had probably told me stuff like

413

that before, but it was something that I

was suddenly very able to go, Oh, right.

414

And for me, it was around things like the

reason why I was making unrealistic goals.

415

Because I truly believe my

thoughts were absolutely that

416

I should be able to do it all.

417

It was a massive problem

if I couldn't do it all.

418

Um, and so then, I kind of already

was feeling overwhelmed and when

419

I was feeling overwhelmed, I would

procrastinate and I couldn't work out

420

why I was procrastinating because nobody

had ever really talked to me about

421

procrastination being emotion avoidance.

422

Procrastination was always presented

as a kind of, well, you just need

423

to decide what you're doing and

then stick to it kind of thing.

424

Um, whereas, I was just getting into

such a sort of an overwhelm of wanting

425

to do all the things and feeling

like I had to do all the things and

426

most of them were of my own volition.

427

This isn't me being a kind of agreeing

to everybody else's stuff, this is

428

a me going I could do that and we

should do this too kind of thing.

429

Um, so it was all of my own creation.

430

And then procrastinating to avoid

those feelings of sort of overwhelm

431

and self judgment and whatnot.

432

Geri: And were these to do with,

sort of, actions to do with your

433

role as professor and education

strand that you're working on, or?

434

Vikki: I would, to paint the picture,

I would be somebody who, you know,

435

fully believed that I should be

able to be a senior leader at the

436

university doing all of that stuff.

437

well on time ahead of myself, consulting

everybody, doing all of those things.

438

And I should be a highly

effective teacher.

439

And I should be doing pedagogical

research, which by the way, I'm

440

not trained in, in any level.

441

You know, I taught myself on a sabbatical,

how to do qualitative research.

442

Um, I should be able to do all of

that whilst also Paddleboarding every

443

week, going to my circus class every

week, seeing my friends several times

444

a week, working on adventure races on

holidays, competing in her adventure

445

races on the weekends, definitely going

home to see my parents at least once

446

a month, dating regularly, um, art.

447

Oh, and writing the novel

that I has partway through.

448

And I truly believe that the reason

I couldn't fit that all in was

449

because I hadn't found the right.

450

time management strategy.

451

And part of me still does.

452

Geri: I'm exhausted

listening to that list.

453

Vikki: But that was genuinely, I

mean, if I showed you my photos from

454

2019 before the world shut down,

yeah, that that was literally, I was

455

doing all of those things regularly.

456

Geri: So, the shoulds though, you know,

how do you reflect on the shoulds now?

457

Because obviously you can hear the

shoulds yourself because, looking back.

458

Vikki: Yeah, I think this is where

I'm sometimes slightly different

459

from other people I speak to.

460

My shoulds were very self driven.

461

They were very, I believed,

you know, I grew up as a

462

somewhat gifted kid and whatnot.

463

Um, and so everything came quite easily.

464

I was best in my class

and did all of that stuff.

465

And so it was very much, you know,

I have that slightly naive belief

466

that if I put my mind to it, I

could be a professional most things.

467

Not a singer, definitely not a singer.

468

But beyond that, you know.

469

I feel like I should be

able to do those things.

470

And so for me it wasn't so much other

people, my expectations of myself have

471

always been inordinately higher than

anybody else's expectations of me.

472

So, so yeah, in my case very much

internal, I just should be able to

473

fit this in and life will be no fun if

it's not, if I don't fit them all in.

474

Whereas when I'm working with my

clients, I often hear a lot more, you

475

know, my supervisor thinks I should

be able to do all of this, or my boss

476

does, or my parents do, or whoever.

477

Geri: The blessing and the curse of

actually being talented and being able

478

to do those things, or being gifted.

479

Vikki: Well, one of the things I often

talk with my clients about now, that was

480

a real kind of transformational moment

for me was thinking about a sort of

481

analogy between all the foods you like.

482

And a meal, right?

483

Because I believed that if I couldn't

do all the things that I wanted to

484

do, that it would somehow be rubbish.

485

Except, when I was trying to do all the

things, and telling myself I should be

486

able to do all the things, I actually

spent an awful lot of time stressed

487

and running around and feeling behind

and chaotic and all of those things.

488

I had a lot of good times too,

don't get me wrong, but there was

489

a lot of judgment going on too.

490

And what we often talk about in sessions

now is how actually your life is a

491

bit more like a plate, it's a bit more

like a meal, and you can choose Things,

492

you know, I need this sort of stuff

in my work life and I need that, you

493

know, extra carbohydrate or whatever.

494

I need this sort of stuff in my fun

life, that's your protein, da da da.

495

And that actually what makes up a nicer

meal is where you've selected a bunch

496

of things that kind of add up to a nice

plate of food, rather than trying to

497

chuck in all your favorites at once.

498

And then you end up with you know,

gravy over ice cream or whatever.

499

Geri: Mm.

500

Yeah.

501

That's a lovely, it's a great analogy.

502

So, because one of the programs

that you offer that I want to talk

503

about is Be Your Own Best Boss.

504

And this is sort of like be your own.

505

Vikki: It's like as your boss, you

choose what you're putting on your plate,

506

essentially, whether that's your actual

eating plate or whether it's the plate

507

of what you're taking on at any one time.

508

And when I'm talking about being your

own best boss, I'm not talking about like

509

my role as an entrepreneur, where I am

now, my own boss, I'm talking about all

510

of us having this role inside ourselves

where we get to decide what things we

511

do and when we do them and what we're

prioritizing right now and how we're

512

organizing our week and all of these

things and how often the way that internal

513

boss acts to us is way worse than we

would ever take from a normal boss, right?

514

You know, when I look back, my boss

internally back then was telling me.

515

Had to do all these things.

516

Don't worry, it will be fun.

517

If you can't fit them all in,

it means you're a terrible

518

person, so just try harder.

519

Um,

520

Geri: This is your, this

is your boss in your head.

521

Vikki: That's my internal boss.

522

Yes, not your real boss.

523

That's to myself.

524

I was giving myself very

vague instructions as to

525

what success looked like.

526

Um, I was jamming in way too many things.

527

Then judging myself for not being able

to follow my to do list, which frankly

528

made no sense in the first place

because it had a thousand things on it.

529

You Um, and then would tell myself it

meant a whole load of things about me.

530

And often we focus on the

like implementer side of us.

531

How do I learn to follow my to

do list, to follow my diary, to

532

do the things I intend to do?

533

And what we often don't do is sort

of backtrack to, hang on a minute.

534

What about the bit of me that's making

the decisions, the boss version of me?

535

Are they acting in my best interests?

536

Are they planning things in a

way that feels doable and fun?

537

Are they saying to me the

things I need to hear?

538

Because it's not just

about planning, right?

539

It's also, you know, When I ask people

what things would you want your boss to

540

say to you, it's like I need to say that

they believed in me and that they think

541

that with support I could do this new

harder thing, but that we'll do it a bit

542

at a time, or that I don't have to do

it all at once or these sorts of things.

543

Now I'm not saying any of

those things to myself.

544

I do now, consciously.

545

But yeah, that's what I mean by this kind

of being a better boss to yourself, is

546

choosing what's on your plate, choosing

what you say to yourself, so that it's

547

then much easier to follow through.

548

Geri: That takes a lot of

self awareness, doesn't it?

549

That, your boss isn't always

giving you the best advice.

550

And I, I mean, I'm wondering, You said

something that has not got your best

551

interest and I often sort of think that

it does have your best interest, it's just

552

not very wise in how it implements it, or

like the way it's going to happen and it

553

falls down a bit in that side of things.

554

Vikki: Yeah, absolutely.

555

And often what it has is it sort of,

I think of it when, when you're kind

556

of internal bosses a little bit.

557

I think what often happens is that

when it's thinking about you in the

558

future, it's either a bit hopeless.

559

I never really had that.

560

But I see some clients where it's

like, Oh, I probably will never

561

be able to blah, blah, blah, blah.

562

I never really have.

563

Mine was just a bit over ambitious.

564

It was a bit like, Oh, we could

definitely do this and this and this.

565

But then when it was managing me in

the moment, it was very, um, indulgent.

566

It was very sort of, Oh, you

know, you're probably quite tired.

567

You probably could leave the

dishwasher till later or whatever.

568

Um, and yeah, you're right.

569

The notion of thinking about what I

was saying to myself with a brain that

570

works at my ADHD speed just seemed

completely, I didn't understand.

571

Yeah.

572

I've got a very good friend who's

a psychology professor in my

573

department and she used to talk

to me about some of this stuff.

574

I was like, I don't understand.

575

You mean there's a stage before

words coming out of your mouth

576

that involves thinking about them?

577

Is that real?

578

Are you lying to me?

579

I don't understand.

580

Um, But there was something, I think,

about the group coaching, where I

581

was seeing other people's thoughts,

that it was like, Oh, you, you're

582

just, you're, the way you're sort

of bossing yourself, you're making

583

it really hard to follow through.

584

This is, this is not always

an implementation problem.

585

This is a, you're saying

really mean things to yourself.

586

and making this a really

hard schedule to follow.

587

And I just see that in so many academics.

588

People telling themselves they should

be able to write for eight hours a day,

589

and they should be able to produce a

draft that doesn't sound terrible on the

590

first attempt, and all of these things.

591

And whilst also telling themselves

they're not good enough.

592

So, like, this weird Perfectionism and

imposter syndrome that coexist somehow.

593

Yes.

594

That I have to be better than everybody

else and produce this in a way that

595

I wouldn't expect from anybody else.

596

And at the same time, I'm a piece of

shit who doesn't deserve to be here.

597

. Geri: And I can't do it

because I'm a piece of shit

598

who doesn't deserve to be here.

599

But I have to prove it even more.

600

Vikki: Exactly.

601

Um.

602

And so

603

Geri: Not logical for people who are

working in the academic scientific space

604

is supposed to be able to think logically.

605

Vikki: But we're all humans in that.

606

I think, I think sometimes, especially,

you know, everyone I work with has

607

come through school as one of the

like brighter ones and all of that.

608

Mm hmm.

609

And they're used to being high achievers,

and they somehow think that that means

610

they get out of having emotions and

they get out of not being perfect and

611

it's like, it doesn't work like that.

612

And so yeah, you're absolutely right.

613

It takes a lot of practice and support,

to be honest, to be able to separate

614

out, um, sort of hearing what you

say to yourself and deciding to what

615

extent you want to reinforce that, or

to what extent you want to go, yeah,

616

yeah, I know, I know you think that,

but it's okay, we can do it anyway.

617

Geri: Which is a boss who actually

has the ability to stand back and go,

618

let me think about that for a minute.

619

Vikki: Yeah, which hundred percent

620

Geri: And make a choice

about how to respond.

621

And I'm also hearing the way that

you described your own drive as being

622

coming very much from you and self

driven and you also pointed to other

623

people that you've worked with where the

drive is more because their supervisor

624

says so that should Has come from

external things and not measuring up.

625

And then there are the other people

that you talked about, who maybe have

626

more of a self confidence issue and

just don't feel like they're able to.

627

And in some ways, like the

behaviors can play out the same.

628

But where they're coming from is so

different and I imagine that how you

629

would approach dealing with them or

working with someone as they work

630

through that would be very different.

631

Do you want to say any more about that?

632

Vikki: Yeah, no, absolutely.

633

And I think this is a true As a coach,

but it's also true as a supervisor.

634

So I do supervisor training as well.

635

And often supervisors are very

focused on the behaviors, right?

636

And the outcomes.

637

They're very focused on, is my

student turning up with the right

638

data or the right writing at

the times they said they would?

639

And if they're not, There's a problem.

640

And obviously people are getting much

better now at recognizing well being

641

problems and all that sort of stuff.

642

And so asking, are you okay?

643

But what we often don't get to

is what is it that's making it

644

hard to reach these deadlines?

645

And often supervisors

respond by being more strict.

646

They can respond by being more

controlling and more like, well,

647

you know, show me as you go along.

648

Let's have more deadlines.

649

Let's have, you know, we'll

do it more supervised way.

650

Um.

651

When actually what's often happening is

that these students have got a lot of

652

thoughts going on about whether they're,

whether they, you know, who are they

653

to make a decision as to whether to

analyze it this way or that way or, you

654

know, who are they to make an argument

or those sorts of things or they're

655

getting ahead of themselves into what's

my supervisor going to think about this.

656

And so often, as you say, lots of

different reasons can come into play.

657

Culminate in that same behavior of

not submitting something on time.

658

And if as coaches, but if as supervisors,

we can't pick that apart or at least

659

recognize that there might be more

than one reason, then that kind of one

660

size fits all solution is, is just not

gonna, it's just not going to get there.

661

Geri: I think that's one of

the most critical skills for

662

supervisors to learn, isn't it?

663

To stay open and curious

about what's going on.

664

what's happening for this person.

665

Um, I was just in a mentor the mentor

workshop last week, and one of the

666

people there was talking more about

their supervisions, um, that they have.

667

And the story that they told, they had

their own sort of self awareness as we

668

were going along about, they were wanting

the other person to be a mini me.

669

And not, thinking about who were they,

what was mini them and what did they

670

want and how could they support them

and realize that a lot of the measures

671

that they'd implemented were what

they would have wanted or what they

672

assumed was the issue because that

would have been the issue for them.

673

Vikki: Yeah, 100%.

674

So often I see supervisors saying,

Well, if I'm taking a deadline

675

seriously, I always hit the deadline.

676

And so that means they must not

be taking this deadline seriously.

677

When in reality, often the

problem is that they're taking the

678

deadline way too seriously, holding

themselves to a ridiculous standard.

679

And they're too scared to even start

start writing because they haven't read

680

enough and they don't know enough yet.

681

Yeah.

682

You know, I definitely can't write

anything until I've read all of this.

683

Um, so yeah, absolutely.

684

That kind of, just assuming that

people are like you and respond to

685

situations in the same way Can, yeah.

686

Can cause lots of problems.

687

Geri: So if you are doing a supervisor

workshop, how do you work with them to

688

develop different skills to do that?

689

What sort of core skills?

690

Vikki: Well, the first thing is

actually almost exactly the same

691

as I do with students, which is

that self understanding, because

692

Geri: Yes, it's core to

everything, isn't it?

693

Vikki: Yeah, it completely is, because

so often, you know, you can go to a

694

supervisor training where they say,

what you need to do is you need to

695

stay in regular contact, provide

feedback on time regularly to a high

696

quality, and adapt your behavior to

whoever you've got in front of you.

697

And if as a supervisor, you're going,

well, that's great, Very lovely, but I'm

698

teaching three modules this semester,

I've got 10 PhD students, 30 undergraduate

699

project students, and I haven't seen my

kids in a month, um, then they're not

700

going to show up like that, um, from a

workload perspective, but also from a,

701

if in their heads, they've got this,

well, I need to get this student through

702

because otherwise I'm not going to get

promoted or I'll never get that grant if

703

we don't get this pilot data collected.

704

I want to be really nice to this

student, but I'm worried I shouldn't

705

have picked them in the first

place, and da da da, all this stuff.

706

If we can't regulate

that for ourselves, Yes.

707

we start trying to control the

behaviour of others in order

708

to make ourselves feel better.

709

And so that's where a stressing supervisor

will often start being too controlling

710

over a student as a way of managing their

own anxiety about the student's progress.

711

And so that's where I start with it all.

712

We go into some quite cool stuff about how

you can use writing to build a supervisory

713

relationship and all these sorts of

things, and some more specific kind of

714

task management tools that you can use.

715

But really the core of it is

is understanding how your own

716

experience of supervision and your

own experience of being an academic

717

influences how you engage with all

of your students and how your first

718

responsibility is regulating that bit.

719

And it's the same in

any relationship, right?

720

This is true of parenting.

721

It's true of, you know,

partner relationships,

722

friendships, all of this stuff.

723

If we rely on other people to regulate

our whole emotions make us feel better,

724

or to get us to do particular actions.

725

Then everyone just starts being

a bit weird with each other.

726

We can take responsibility.

727

You know, my thoughts, feelings,

actions, outcomes are mine.

728

Yours are yours.

729

But my job is to create an environment

in which you're most likely to flourish.

730

Um, if we can start from there,

then everything gets a little

731

bit more straightforward.

732

Geri: Did you develop those skills over

time as a supervisor or have the insights

733

developed more deeply as you've moved into

more of this coaching role and working?

734

Vikki: I'm definitely, yeah, I'm,

I'd even go so, so far to say that

735

I'm mildly self conscious of ex

students listening to my podcast.

736

So I have a podcast, The PhD Life Coach,

and I was, I was a good supervisor, I

737

think, in the sense that I was keen and

helpful and enthusiastic and engaged,

738

all of those things, definitely.

739

However, I was also definitely someone

who would lose track that something was

740

happening and then panic at the last

minute about whether it was or not.

741

So I would sort of not follow up with

them for a while then stress out

742

about whether it had been done or

not, things like that, definitely.

743

Um, depending, I, I supervise across

a slightly silly range of disciplines,

744

just because I have a lot of interests

and an interdisciplinary approach.

745

And.

746

Yeah, there were definitely times

where, where I just didn't show

747

up as my best self, where there

were too many other things.

748

I don't, you know,

nothing ever went wrong.

749

They all, you know,

they were all wonderful.

750

They will still talk to me.

751

Um, but I definitely don't hold

myself up as being, you know,

752

I got it right the whole time.

753

Um, I sometimes wonder what it would

be like now to supervise PhD students

754

with it, how easy I would find it to

practice what I preach, as it were.

755

Um,

756

but yeah, I think even just having

that compassion on both sides

757

that not everyone shows up the

way they intend to all the time.

758

Yeah.

759

It just.

760

Geri: And we're all on a learning journey.

761

Vikki: Yeah.

762

Geri: We're all on a learning

journey and that giving ourselves the

763

grace to be on a learning journey.

764

And we learn most from when

we don't get it always right.

765

I don't, I can tell.

766

I think a lot of the stuff I do is

driven by the stories of what I did

767

that I now think, Oh my goodness, you

know, and I think one of the things

768

that I'm starting to believe more and

more and more is important as we have

769

an explicit discussion in any of these

sorts of relationships that we're going

770

to, you know, like the expectation

that we are going to get it wrong.

771

And what do we do?

772

How are we going to handle this together?

773

And your freedom to speak up and

my freedom to say, oops, sorry.

774

And how can we repair this?

775

And because I think in

the past, I may have also.

776

Tried to sort of, in the guilt thing of,

I oughtn't to have done that, uh, almost

777

pretend it didn't happen or justify

it in different ways that are really

778

not, accountable when I look back.

779

Vikki: Yeah, no, definitely.

780

And people, I think that's

one of the things that's

781

interesting with coaching, right?

782

Because I think people think that

if they do sufficient coaching and

783

they do all this kind of mindset

work and stuff, that they just

784

won't make these mistakes in future.

785

Yeah.

786

And in my experience, that's not true.

787

We're laughing.

788

We, you know.

789

Maybe make them a bit less, but for

me, the bit that becomes so powerful

790

is also how you respond after that.

791

So, for me, if you can do the kind of

good self compassion piece, which is

792

something we work on a lot, then, um,

after you've snapped at somebody or

793

given more critical feedback than you

intended or whatever, not turned up for

794

something you were meant to or whatever,

if you're not making that mean that you're

795

an awful person or you're not making

it mean that it's their fault because

796

they should have given it to you sooner,

then it can be more of a like, Oh crap.

797

I was meant to do that.

798

Wasn't I?

799

The one for me was always, um, I

always forgot things like my MOT

800

and my, for my car and my mum would

always remind me, she'd always say,

801

Oh, your MOT is due in about July.

802

Is that just a UK thing?

803

It's a car check.

804

It's a legal thing.

805

Your insurance is invalid without it.

806

So you have to go and have your

car checked over once a year.

807

And I'd always forget when it was.

808

And my mum was like, I think

your MOT's due in July.

809

And I used to get so mad.

810

In my head, that meant that

she thought I was useless.

811

She thought that I wasn't on top of it.

812

I'd be like, alright, it's

fine, I know, it's in my diary.

813

And then afterwards I'd be like,

shit, it's not in my diary.

814

Wait, I don't know how to do it.

815

But I'd be so defensive with her.

816

Um, whereas, Once we can do this kind of

self compassion piece where it's like,

817

you know, I forget stuff sometimes.

818

I do.

819

It's how it goes.

820

Um, it's not that we don't try

and it's not that we don't put

821

systems in place to avoid it.

822

But if we can just, exactly,

it doesn't mean a lot about us.

823

It just means we forgot that thing.

824

Then suddenly I can respond

to my mum with that.

825

Oh, you're right.

826

Yeah, good shout.

827

I'll give them a call.

828

And similarly with students and whatever,

it can be like, Um, I was meant to

829

give you feedback for today, wasn't it?

830

I'm so sorry.

831

I haven't done it.

832

Let me look at my diary.

833

We'll figure out a time

now that we can do it.

834

Whereas, if it's this big deal, we

often avoid it, or we get defensive,

835

or, you know, we just generally

exacerbate what was only a small thing.

836

And I think that that was

something I was probably okay at.

837

I've never been a grudge

bearing sort of a person.

838

So I think the kind of, certainly with

their mistakes, I was pretty good at

839

kind of getting over that quite quickly.

840

Maybe not quite so good

when it was my mistakes.

841

Geri: Because you're a harsher boss

on yourself than on other people.

842

So it sounds like self compassion is one

of the key tools that a best boss brings.

843

What are some of the other aspects

of being your own best boss

844

that you think are really key?

845

Vikki: So I actually, so I

have a online course called

846

how to be your own best boss.

847

And It's kind of different sections

in it, but the final section has 10

848

qualities that I think a good boss needs.

849

We always start with compassion because

everything else just doesn't work if we

850

can't start to develop that in ourselves.

851

Um, curiosity is, I won't do all

10, but curiosity is a huge one.

852

That sort of, I wonder why.

853

I'm doing that.

854

Or I wonder why they might be doing

that and sort of being open and

855

non judgmental and just sort of

wondering what options there are.

856

Cause we often have quite fixed

reasoning around why someone would

857

do something or what they should do.

858

Geri: Even the emotions that you

talked about before, you know,

859

being aware that curiosity about

your own emotions or reactions, I

860

wonder why, where's that coming from?

861

Vikki: Why did that hurt so much?

862

Why did I get so defensive

when he said that?

863

What was it that bothered me?

864

So in that meeting example where I, where

I exploded, the reason, you know, when I

865

looked at that with curiosity afterwards,

it was because I thought that too.

866

I thought I should have consulted

with people too and I hadn't had time

867

and I hadn't been able to do that

and I hadn't prioritized doing that.

868

But that was why if he was asking

me something that was stupid, I

869

don't think I'd have got so upset.

870

It was because I thought that

too, that I got so upset.

871

Geri: And so you're disappointed

in yourself in a way.

872

Vikki: But it was only through that kind

of curiosity of, I get so upset about

873

that, that that became really important.

874

Geri: Um.

875

Self compassion, curiosity.

876

Vikki: Yeah.

877

I was just thinking

through which other ones.

878

So I think, so I have ambitious and

realistic, and I think those are

879

really interesting to hold together.

880

And that is, the ambitious

is around believing.

881

How much you can do and how many

things you've got ahead of you without

882

having to be this perfect being.

883

How far you can go with, without changing

fundamental things about yourself.

884

Um, so it's sort of being ambitious and

believing that you can get there, um,

885

but not in a kind of, What's the word?

886

Like a dream world kind of way.

887

If I can just find the perfect

system, find the perfect whatever,

888

then I can just, I know, actually,

I can get to these things I can do

889

more than I think I'm capable of.

890

Um, so that's the kind of ambitious

side, but then the realistic side

891

is around sort of recognizing that

you are always going to be you.

892

You are always going to have.

893

Some of the qualities you have now,

there are going to be things that

894

you're going to have to actively

manage for the rest of your life.

895

And often we need to be realistic

more in the kind of day to day

896

expectations of what can be

done in a short amount of time.

897

So it's sort of ambitious in the longer

term, realistic in the day to day, so

898

that you can you can kind of keep things

moving and keep kind of understanding,

899

you know, that whole kind of B minus work

is good enough thing being realistic and

900

what quality something needs to be in

order to be meaningful and important.

901

Geri: I was going to just say something

very similar that is one of the key

902

skills in that realistic piece, isn't it?

903

Is, I don't know, being realistic about

you can't do the same high standard,

904

especially if you're someone who has high

standards and push yourself, that you

905

don't have to do it for everything and

what is really important and worth it.

906

Vikki: Yeah, 100%.

907

And it goes back to this notion of,

you know, we're talking about the plate

908

and the meal at the beginning, um,

is, You can have a high standard life.

909

You can have a high standard plate.

910

It doesn't mean that every single

element of your life needs to

911

be done to a perfect standard.

912

You can have a high standard thesis,

or research article, or whatever, which

913

has got a few clunky sentences in it.

914

It doesn't stop it being a

high standard piece of work.

915

And I think sometimes we get fixated

on how every little bit has to be

916

high standard, rather than looking

at what makes a high standard whole.

917

And I see this a lot, I have a lot of

clients who are part time PhD students,

918

so they have other jobs alongside

their PhD, or I have clients who are

919

academics and also parents and things

like this, and so they're sort of

920

juggling different roles in their life.

921

And a lot of the time they talk about that

they're not performing highly in any one

922

zone of their life, you know, they're not,

they're not a good enough academic because

923

they're a parent and they're putting time

and care into that, and they're not a

924

good enough parent because they're putting

time and care into their academic life.

925

One of the things we try and think about

is if we look at it as a life, rather

926

than as two other lives, like academia and

parenting, for example, then we can say

927

what is a high standard academic parent.

928

What does the life of a high

standard academic parent look like?

929

And that can't be a hundred percent of

what a parent who doesn't got an academic

930

career and a hundred percent of what

an academic without kids looks like.

931

But what would it look like

to have a high standard?

932

academic parenting life.

933

And suddenly you start seeing that

actually how that is high standard is

934

by having some bits where it matters

and some bits where it doesn't.

935

Some bits where it's like, you

know what, if my kid is fed

936

tonight, that is good enough.

937

They will cope with a little bit of

television and something out the freezer

938

because they're entertained, they're

alive, they're fed, happy days, that

939

is good enough, I need to do this.

940

Other times, It's, I'm not going to

be at that meeting because it's their

941

carol concert and I'm, I'm going

that's, you know, and that's what you

942

then you're not judging yourself for

making, you know, entirely homemade

943

meal over here, judging yourself for

not going to that meeting as well.

944

It's like, on the whole, this

adds up to a high standard.

945

Geri: I've almost got in my head

a picture of, um, you've got

946

two bosses warring in your head.

947

You've got your academic boss and

your parent boss, and both of them

948

are trying to get your full attention.

949

Vikki: And it needs to be just one boss.

950

Geri: And you need to step into the middle

and say, Yeah, you know, step aside.

951

Vikki: Yeah, this isn't

two separate things.

952

We have, we have one like, I

don't really like this notion

953

of like work life balance.

954

No.

955

We have, we have a life, and we are

the boss of that, and we get to decide.

956

And it's not always going

to look the same, right?

957

That's one of the things that as

our own bosses we get to choose.

958

There's going to be times where it's

like, you know what, during this period

959

of time, This stuff's going to rise

to the surface and I'm going to rely on

960

more family support or whoever we've got.

961

I know not everyone has that luck,

that luxury, but you know, we're

962

going to rely on other support to

help with family things, or I'm just

963

going to have lower expectations

of myself and they'll be fine.

964

And then other times, you know, work goes

a little bit more on the back burner and

965

family stuff has to be higher priority.

966

We can change these things week to

week, day to day, or like phases.

967

It is.

968

Um, but it takes that little sort of

slight step back to be like, okay,

969

what could good look like here?

970

And how can I, how can I make up

something here that sort of muddles

971

out on the whole be a good life?

972

Because chasing perfect

and all of it feels crap

973

Geri: And good is good is good, isn't it?

974

Sometimes people interpret

good as compromise or.

975

Not good enough, but it's good.

976

Yeah, it is good.

977

Vikki: A hundred percent.

978

Because thing is, we're also

often, we're choosing really silly

979

markers of what is excellent.

980

So like, I know people get

themselves, you know, they get very

981

caught up on, you know, I need to.

982

Homemade food, let's say that.

983

Whether it's for yourself, for your

partner, for your kids, whoever.

984

Homemade food.

985

I need to be eating nutritiously and

cooking most of it myself and da da da.

986

They'll get all caught up on that,

um, and then struggle to balance

987

that with their academic life.

988

And if the attempt to do that is

making you grumpy and obnoxious.

989

The overall picture is not better here.

990

It's like, we're attempting to eat

homemade food and succeed at university

991

and the price of that is I'm snapping

at everybody and judging myself.

992

I'd far rather you were only cooking

homemade food twice a week and eating

993

something out of a jar the rest of

the time and being nice to yourself

994

and the people around you because

that's going to add up to a much

995

nicer, healthier life than any kind of

perfectionist idea of like standards.

996

And the same is true with work, right?

997

I'd far rather that your lectures

were sorted and ready to go for the

998

term, than one of them was beautiful

and carefully researched and put

999

together and the others don't exist.

00:59:14,370 --> 00:59:17,240

Geri: So there's, there's still

the job of getting stuff done.

00:59:18,375 --> 00:59:24,655

And, and the warring bosses in your

head and trying to create the boss that

00:59:24,655 --> 00:59:29,175

you want and getting it to stand up to

the others with compassion and curiosity

00:59:29,175 --> 00:59:32,365

and care, and self awareness as well.

00:59:33,075 --> 00:59:37,600

So, building on that, if we have those as

foundations and we're practicing some of

00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:43,140

those things, how do we then practically

still manage to get stuff done?

00:59:43,770 --> 00:59:47,670

Vikki: Yeah, it's such a good question

because often I find that coaches

00:59:47,670 --> 00:59:49,350

fall on one side of this or the other.

00:59:49,350 --> 00:59:52,000

They're either all mindset and it's

just, if you can get your thoughts

00:59:52,010 --> 00:59:53,630

straight, then we'll be good.

00:59:53,980 --> 00:59:57,410

Or they're very tips and

tricks and technique focus.

00:59:57,740 --> 01:00:01,400

Well, I try and balance the two and

in the Be Your Own Best Boss course,

01:00:01,400 --> 01:00:02,430

there's, there's elements of both.

01:00:04,485 --> 01:00:08,425

One of the tools that I really, really

like, and I've sort of developed

01:00:08,505 --> 01:00:11,175

over the last couple of years is

called role based time blocking.

01:00:11,495 --> 01:00:15,975

So people will have heard time blocking

before where you kind of plan what

01:00:16,095 --> 01:00:19,595

blocks of time you're going to use,

usually for specific tasks, right?

01:00:19,615 --> 01:00:22,715

I'll write this in that block

and I'll do this in that block.

01:00:23,415 --> 01:00:27,145

The idea behind role based time

blocking is that we all have a

01:00:27,145 --> 01:00:28,875

variety of roles in our lives.

01:00:28,995 --> 01:00:30,395

Now there might be some roles.

01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,490

In your personal life, you're a parent

or you're a partner or whatever,

01:00:33,950 --> 01:00:38,270

but even within your academic

life, you have multiple roles.

01:00:38,270 --> 01:00:41,940

You're a, you know, you lead

a particular module whatever.

01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:43,170

You have an admin role.

01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,700

You have a certain research

project or whatever.

01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:49,930

And even for PhD students, the

earlier stage of this stuff,

01:00:50,190 --> 01:00:52,780

they'll have a role of writer.

01:00:53,030 --> 01:00:56,790

They'll have a role of data collector

or data analyzer or whatever.

01:00:57,455 --> 01:01:01,705

And the idea behind this technique is that

we get clear on what the different roles

01:01:01,865 --> 01:01:09,245

are, and then, for like this period of our

life, what proportional amount of time do

01:01:09,245 --> 01:01:11,115

I want to spend in these different roles?

01:01:11,115 --> 01:01:15,545

And so what we get to do is instead of

putting specific tasks on our calendars,

01:01:15,875 --> 01:01:17,985

we get to put roles in our calendars.

01:01:17,985 --> 01:01:22,005

So we get to say, between this

time and this time on a Monday,

01:01:22,375 --> 01:01:25,115

I am module organiser me.

01:01:25,135 --> 01:01:26,595

So I'm in teaching mode.

01:01:26,655 --> 01:01:28,495

That's, that's where I do that stuff.

01:01:28,725 --> 01:01:31,065

In this block, I'm in

data collection mode.

01:01:31,065 --> 01:01:33,825

In that block, I'm in

writing mode, for example.

01:01:34,595 --> 01:01:38,535

And what this does is it separates out.

01:01:38,875 --> 01:01:42,035

these different tasks so that you

don't feel quite so much like you're

01:01:42,045 --> 01:01:43,545

having to be all things to all people.

01:01:43,545 --> 01:01:46,975

In that block of time you are

solely a writer or in that block

01:01:46,975 --> 01:01:48,515

of time you're solely a teacher.

01:01:49,305 --> 01:01:52,775

And it also helps if one of the things

that people always criticize time blocking

01:01:52,775 --> 01:01:56,275

for is not knowing how long things take

and not deciding how long things take.

01:01:56,275 --> 01:01:56,865

Yes.

01:01:56,865 --> 01:02:01,335

And what this get you get to do in

this is that it's a I haven't decided

01:02:01,365 --> 01:02:06,405

exactly which of the tasks I'm going

to do, but it's going to be tasks

01:02:06,415 --> 01:02:09,955

that are to do with the module I'm

teaching this year, for example.

01:02:10,685 --> 01:02:15,295

And so I then have a role based

task management system as well, where

01:02:15,295 --> 01:02:17,695

my tasks are divided out by roles.

01:02:17,955 --> 01:02:23,385

So if I'm in a block where I'm thinking

about being a Podcast host, for example.

01:02:23,745 --> 01:02:28,165

Um, I have my to dos that are to do

with the production of my podcast.

01:02:28,775 --> 01:02:32,525

And when my brain is going, as it

inevitably does, Oh yeah, yeah,

01:02:32,525 --> 01:02:34,695

but you, you need to contact

that client about whatever.

01:02:34,695 --> 01:02:37,225

It's like, yeah, I'll do that

in my operations section.

01:02:37,755 --> 01:02:38,385

That's on the list.

01:02:39,285 --> 01:02:40,725

I'll do it when I'm on operations.

01:02:40,995 --> 01:02:43,335

Right now I'm podcast

host and that's all I am.

01:02:43,795 --> 01:02:45,425

Um, so we're just doing podcast jobs.

01:02:45,895 --> 01:02:51,705

And having that sort of, it's like a

sort of in between time blocking where

01:02:51,705 --> 01:02:55,105

we're not just having a complete free

for all do whatever, but we're not

01:02:55,105 --> 01:02:59,055

plotting this exact task in this exact

minute and then getting out of control.

01:03:00,045 --> 01:03:03,215

Just hugely, hugely helps.

01:03:03,315 --> 01:03:06,315

So to say you're kind of makes it

really clear, makes it much more

01:03:06,315 --> 01:03:08,305

limited what things you've got to do.

01:03:08,615 --> 01:03:09,535

In that block.

01:03:09,995 --> 01:03:13,915

Um, and enables you to look at

your week and go, am I spending

01:03:13,915 --> 01:03:15,935

this how I want to spend it?

01:03:15,935 --> 01:03:18,085

Within the constraints I've got.

01:03:18,435 --> 01:03:18,865

Yes.

01:03:19,115 --> 01:03:23,505

Am I spending this proportionally

where I want to be spending it?

01:03:23,575 --> 01:03:23,885

Geri: Yeah.

01:03:24,570 --> 01:03:26,840

And where your energy is as well, like.

01:03:26,930 --> 01:03:30,850

Vikki: 100 percent because, and that's

really important because often people

01:03:30,850 --> 01:03:35,550

say, yeah, but what if I come round to

the writing section and I don't feel like

01:03:35,550 --> 01:03:37,520

writing, I'm just not there for writing.

01:03:37,670 --> 01:03:40,580

Well, what we often do in that

is we go off and do some little

01:03:41,120 --> 01:03:45,380

admin task and then wonder why we

never get any writing done, right?

01:03:45,460 --> 01:03:49,310

Whereas with role based time

blocking, what the argument would

01:03:49,320 --> 01:03:51,100

be is that you're in writer mode.

01:03:51,680 --> 01:03:54,020

If you're not feeling like writing, okay.

01:03:55,085 --> 01:03:56,565

Then we write slowly.

01:03:57,125 --> 01:03:58,955

We write just a little bit.

01:03:59,155 --> 01:04:02,005

We write with low expectations of quality.

01:04:02,215 --> 01:04:06,335

We write something that's, you

know, at a very early stage,

01:04:06,335 --> 01:04:07,935

so it's a really rough draft.

01:04:08,615 --> 01:04:09,715

We still write.

01:04:10,565 --> 01:04:15,955

We just change the way we show up for

it, and we change the exact nature of it.

01:04:16,515 --> 01:04:18,995

But we don't decide to go off

and just do something different

01:04:18,995 --> 01:04:20,205

because it feels easier.

01:04:20,205 --> 01:04:20,505

Yeah.

01:04:21,355 --> 01:04:27,515

And that can be a really good way

of keeping those important but

01:04:27,515 --> 01:04:33,015

not urgent tasks ticking over and

making it not feel like you've got

01:04:33,015 --> 01:04:36,346

a thousand things to do because in

that block, you're just that job.

01:04:36,346 --> 01:04:41,175

Geri: I like the way you brought your,

you illustrated again, bringing in your

01:04:41,175 --> 01:04:45,255

own best boss, because it said to you,

I know you've got this other work to do.

01:04:45,835 --> 01:04:46,535

We'll get to it.

01:04:46,535 --> 01:04:48,075

There's a space in the calendar.

01:04:48,115 --> 01:04:49,455

You know, you can calm down.

01:04:49,485 --> 01:04:51,885

Yeah, we've thought of

that self reassurance.

01:04:52,515 --> 01:04:54,685

It's now time to do this other thing.

01:04:54,955 --> 01:05:01,715

I also like the way that it removes one of

the reasons that one of the many reasons

01:05:01,715 --> 01:05:04,265

that we can beat ourselves up about that.

01:05:04,265 --> 01:05:07,765

You know, I, I'm terrible at

estimating the time something

01:05:07,765 --> 01:05:09,175

takes, which is what everyone says.

01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:10,440

Everybody.

01:05:10,550 --> 01:05:10,770

Yeah.

01:05:10,850 --> 01:05:14,160

And the research backs that up that

we are bad at estimating our task.

01:05:14,420 --> 01:05:18,279

And I really like that it takes

the pressure off that as an excuse.

01:05:18,310 --> 01:05:22,529

Like, yeah, you may not have,

uh, You may have thought it would

01:05:22,550 --> 01:05:26,580

take less time or more time, but

the point is you're in that role.

01:05:27,170 --> 01:05:33,870

What you also indicated is that you,

the value of doing that pre planning,

01:05:34,210 --> 01:05:37,480

the scenario planning, the what if

planning that some of the people talk

01:05:37,490 --> 01:05:45,840

about of, if I have a writing block

in the calendar and I don't feel like

01:05:45,870 --> 01:05:50,100

writing, then I will do slow writing.

01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:51,910

Then I will Do something.

01:05:52,110 --> 01:05:58,050

Like having pre thought what might be some

alternative strategy so that you're still

01:05:58,070 --> 01:06:03,930

standing in that role and you're being

realistic again like you're realistic.

01:06:03,990 --> 01:06:04,190

Yeah.

01:06:04,270 --> 01:06:08,890

Vikki: 100 percent 100

percent and you know this.

01:06:09,940 --> 01:06:15,300

The reason I do mindset with these

tools is you need both, right?

01:06:15,340 --> 01:06:22,640

Because these tools only work if you

combine them with some self compassion,

01:06:22,640 --> 01:06:25,800

some self understanding, some

flexibility and all of these things.

01:06:25,830 --> 01:06:28,860

Because otherwise what happens is, you

know, you listen, I have a podcast episode

01:06:28,860 --> 01:06:32,680

about role based time blocking, you listen

to that, you try it, you don't stick to it

01:06:32,680 --> 01:06:36,810

perfectly, you beat yourself up, declare

it another failed system, and then don't

01:06:36,810 --> 01:06:38,200

do anything for another couple of weeks.

01:06:38,680 --> 01:06:43,390

Um, so the tools on their own don't

work, but if you have these sorts of

01:06:43,390 --> 01:06:48,990

tools and then you combine it with

being open to the fact that you're

01:06:48,990 --> 01:06:53,750

gonna explore and be curious and see

which time box do I stick to regularly?

01:06:53,760 --> 01:06:58,029

Which roles do I find it easier

to fall into more, more readily?

01:06:58,029 --> 01:07:01,100

Which roles do I find

myself wanting to go to?

01:07:01,350 --> 01:07:04,779

Which roles am I like cross

that I don't have more time for?

01:07:05,275 --> 01:07:09,565

Um, you go into it kind of curiously

and compassionately and understanding

01:07:09,575 --> 01:07:14,065

that there's going to be times where

you've got to kind of just sort of

01:07:14,065 --> 01:07:17,855

reassure that little inner child that

don't want to do the difficult thing

01:07:17,855 --> 01:07:20,455

and just go, it's okay, but we are

going to, because that's the role.

01:07:20,755 --> 01:07:24,565

You kind of combine up those

sorts of cognitive emotional

01:07:24,915 --> 01:07:27,425

tools in order to make it.

01:07:27,920 --> 01:07:28,840

more effective.

01:07:28,890 --> 01:07:31,100

And I always feel the need,

I have to add this caveat.

01:07:31,279 --> 01:07:35,390

I've been doing role based time blocking

for probably three years now, I would say.

01:07:36,900 --> 01:07:41,920

I can think of maybe one week where

I have stuck to every block that

01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:45,170

I said I was going to do with the

exact role I said I was going to do.

01:07:46,645 --> 01:07:52,735

Any sort of planning system is not about,

no boss expect, no good boss expects

01:07:52,735 --> 01:07:57,505

you to 100 percent stick to exactly what

you do at all times with no flexibility.

01:07:58,955 --> 01:08:05,485

There is an enormous amount of benefit to

planning, scheduling, trying to implement

01:08:05,495 --> 01:08:12,415

the best you can and then reviewing

afterwards that is hugely valuable.

01:08:12,990 --> 01:08:13,580

Yes.

01:08:13,770 --> 01:08:17,399

Even if you haven't stuck to it.

01:08:18,270 --> 01:08:21,580

And I think that's one of the most

important things for people to recognize.

01:08:21,930 --> 01:08:22,450

Geri: Yeah.

01:08:22,580 --> 01:08:24,250

Because it is that ongoing learning.

01:08:24,630 --> 01:08:25,010

Yeah.

01:08:25,260 --> 01:08:25,649

A hundred percent.

01:08:25,649 --> 01:08:26,450

And

01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,750

you said about recognizing what

blocks come easier to you or

01:08:31,790 --> 01:08:33,200

that you look more forward to.

01:08:33,399 --> 01:08:36,160

And that connects back to what you

said at the very beginning when you

01:08:36,160 --> 01:08:39,690

started to realize that this isn't

what you wanted to do in the research

01:08:39,690 --> 01:08:41,740

because the energy wasn't there.

01:08:42,220 --> 01:08:43,520

And then what a great.

01:08:43,950 --> 01:08:48,569

tool for self awareness, because if you

know that there are some roles that you

01:08:48,569 --> 01:08:54,970

particularly like, how can you shape your

time at work to do more of that, or to

01:08:55,200 --> 01:09:00,250

reserve your high energy, high quality

time for that work that you love doing?

01:09:00,710 --> 01:09:01,640

Vikki: 100%.

01:09:01,670 --> 01:09:05,790

So that you're building on your

strengths and trying to create a

01:09:05,830 --> 01:09:10,895

career and a life that uses those

strengths for As much as time possible.

01:09:10,895 --> 01:09:12,854

I think that's, that's

all any of us can ask.

01:09:13,495 --> 01:09:18,035

Geri: Which is, I think the, the theme

that's come through the whole thing is

01:09:18,675 --> 01:09:26,005

you, you have to be you and it takes

work to understand who you are and not

01:09:26,005 --> 01:09:30,404

who someone else is or not who your

unrealistic boss expects you to be.

01:09:32,005 --> 01:09:33,915

But yeah, how do you do you?

01:09:34,245 --> 01:09:39,625

And that means that you're a great

boss to be cultivated to do that.

01:09:39,865 --> 01:09:40,645

Vikki: Absolutely.

01:09:41,135 --> 01:09:41,475

Yeah.

01:09:41,505 --> 01:09:46,694

Geri: So I will, I will link to

that, uh, role blocking podcast

01:09:46,694 --> 01:09:49,484

episode, because I think that will

be really interesting for people.

01:09:50,465 --> 01:09:50,524

Perfect.

01:09:52,115 --> 01:09:56,905

So any, anything to say in wrapping

up and also, where can people find