Jed: 00:00:01

Hey, Derrell.

Derrell: 00:00:02

Hey, Jed. How you doing?

Jed: 00:00:03

Great to have you here. I've been wanting to do this for such a long time.

I've said this at Charterfolk before, but I want to start again by saying there were, like, five people in the country that I called to, like, give me a gut check about whether it was a wise thing to do. Charterfolk, you were one of the five, and you were one that was most emphatic. If not you, who.

Yes, do it, and you'll be there as a partner along the way. At one point I asked you, hey, if we ever get across 10,000 contributors, will you give us a column? And you said yes.

And you gave me this column just a couple weeks ago about saying it loud. And it's being talked about across the country, so for all sorts of reasons. Derrell, thank you.

You've been instrumental in making Charterfolk what it is and delighted to have you here today.

Derrell: 00:00:48

Stop it now. Stop the recording. It's only going to go downhill from there. So. No, no, thank you very much. I'm really happy that you crossed the 10,000 threshold.

I know it's been a labor of love and a lot of hard work, and thanks for featuring my piece. I appreciate it.

Jed: 00:01:05

I can't wait to dive into it. But we are recording in the week after the fire started in Los Angeles. They're continuing to this very moment.

It's a moment to pause and at least identify that and try to make our comments tone right out of the box. I know you've got a lot of relationships with charter folk in Los Angeles. Derrell, any observations you would share with folks about this?

Derrell: 00:01:29

Yeah, I mean, so for all the folks I don't have relationship with, I hope you are as safe as you can be and that, you know, you. Your possessions, your family, avoid as much harm or destruction as possible. You know, out here on the east coast is really, really tragic.

I'm looking at it in the same way. You know, I can remember before I started working ed policy, I think it was when Katrina happened.

Jed: 00:01:55

Yeah.

Derrell: 00:01:55

Kind of like seeing. Seeing the water downtown and being like, how. How is that ever going to be fixed? How are people ever going to recover from that? And.

And we did, you know, like we did. So my thoughts and best wishes to Angelinos. Please be safe. And I know it's going to be better than it is now at some point in the future.

Jed: 00:02:22

Yeah.

I think that in terms of say it loud, your piece here from last week, there are all sorts of things you want to say loud in moments like this that just aren't that appropriate. And so I'll share. I'll reserve some of my comments to make about the charter schools that have been affected because they're.

Derrell: 00:02:41

Each.

Jed: 00:02:41

Each and every one of them is an amazing story. It's an amazing story, but the thing that strikes me at this moment is just the togetherness. I've saw it in the paradise fires.

I saw it getting to know the people in western North Carolina after the hurricane, and now we see it. There is just a spirit of togetherness and a recognition.

Hey, while we have fights with each other in the public realm, in the policy realm, when it gets right down to it, people remember that we're at each other's backs and across charters and district schools, we see people working together. And yes, within the charter school community itself, just the.

My wife's on a Facebook page with people from Odyssey Charter and what that community did just yesterday on Facebook, I mean, I couldn't finish it without, you know, having tears in my eyes. It's amazing what they're doing. And I think the most important thing for people to realize is people are at their back. This is not going to.

We're not going to forget this. We're going to keep going. You watch what we did in paradise, you watch what we did in western North Carolina. You watch what we see in Los Angeles.

We will be at these schools backs and they will get back to being able to serve their communities like they have been able to do in the past.

Derrell: 00:03:50

Awesome.

Jed: 00:03:51

So I wanted to dive into this piece of yours, but before that I realized I'm not sure just how precise I've been on the Derrell Bradford origin story. We get closer in your piece.

I really loved your references to seeing Northstar in Newark and then what it meant to you to be at success academies and to see just quality for the first time and how it galvanized you. But that's a little bit further down the road than what I think your origin is.

Is there any moment at Penn or is there any moment before perhaps where something about this ed reform thing or. Or maybe charter ness or whatever it is something connected with you so deeply where you started to realize the inevitable.

You were going to spend a significant chunk of your adult life working toward this. Do you have any origin moments that you. You point to?

Derrell: 00:04:48

Yeah. What a great question. It's hard to answer. I'm a little choked up answering it. So. I am a very unlikely ed reform advocate. I was a.

s Working on folded in August: 2001

And a friend of mine from Penn was like, hey, my father just started this nonprofit, maybe you can help him.

And so I got a job as like the communications officer because that was my thing, writing letters, designing websites and all this other stuff for a state based group in New Jersey. Working on school choice. So working on private school choice, working on charter schools, whatever.

And I didn't know anything about education policy at the time.

What I knew was that the only school I'd have, the only public school I'd ever gone to that I was zoned for was the first one that I had an aunt who worked in the Baltimore city public school system who basically got me into schools I never would have gotten into normally. And then I'd gone to an independent school from 7 to 12 on a scholarship.

And when sort of given the mission of help families, you know, families like mine, right, have more educational opportunity, that resonated incredibly strongly with me. So like I'm, you know, I'm not like a free market devotee.

Like, I mean, I believe in the market, but it's like that's not why I am the way I am, you know.

And then the first exposure I had to kind of any of this was we took a trip to Milwaukee not to see, you know, what, what was going on and kind of like the, with the Milwaukee rental choice program, but also what the district was doing with charter schools and Milwaukee was a multiple authorizing environment. The district itself was an authorizer. They had this sort of kind of charter that they authorized but kind of ran.

And then they had this another kind of charter that they authorized but didn't run.

And I can remember coming back and like, my instincts and, you know, I'm very supportive of independent schools and all this other stuff, but I do remember thinking like, wow, this charter school thing seems like a real good idea. Like we should be doing a lot more of that. Uh, and so I just had like a.

Two sort of like amazing mentors, two older guys, like, very, you know, seasoned in the world, want a Democrat, one a Republican. And they just gave me like a lot, a lot, a lot of care and feeding.

So I've been incredibly lucky to kind of like learn about, you know, how liberals think about opportunity, how conservatives think about it, you know, like the, like the regulation and incentives, you know, kind of like measurement and like, you know, greater good, like all of these things. And if you have great colleagues and great, you know, mentors. You wind up doing things for much longer than you anticipate.

Jed: 00:08:07

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Was Howard in Milwaukee when you were there for that business?

Derrell: 00:08:12

Yes, he was. Yes, he was. And like, you know, ironically, we're filming this on the 14th. So today is his birthday.

Jed: 00:08:19

That is. That's right. Happy birthday, Howard. That's right.

Derrell: 00:08:23

Yeah. That called. Called him up earlier and started singing. I got to the second stanza and decided to stop, but.

But yeah, I mean, you know, he was hugely instrumental in my career and my thinking and everything as well.

Jed: 00:08:38

So. Yeah, that's great. That's great. Well, the origin story thing is something that just keeps coming back again and again for me.

I have moments where different experiences are more resonant. But this Christmas we had my little brother's family, my little brother from the Big Brothers program. Matthew and I met when he was 8. He's now 42.

Derrell: 00:09:02

Wow.

Jed: 00:09:03

And his mom came for Christmas and we just had an awesome, awesome holiday together. But I was just remembering what it was like to go with Matthew and Myron to parent teacher conferences at his LA Unified School.

My dad was a school principal and he got himself into trouble. And the punishment he had is in Jefferson County, Colorado. He was sent to the toughest school and that's where he spent his career.

And so I was anchored to the idea that my dad's school was among the toughest you find anywhere. And then I went with Matthew and Myron to that school and I was like, oh my gosh, my worldview is not up to date. It is not accurate.

It didn't result right then. And like, oh, I know what I'm going to do with my life, but I just realized a depth of unfairness that I had been blind to before.

And so it's great reason to keep long term relationships in your life. Whatever. I love them for, you know, for all sorts of different reasons, but they also help me understand even my own experience.

Derrell: 00:10:05

Yep.

Jed: 00:10:06

Well, talking about personal experience, I'm curious about what it was that motivated you to write say it Loud. I mean, it's obviously this has been welling up in you for a while and also I sense that it's kind of born of a moment.

Like maybe you're seeing others are starting to think it yourself.

But I think you also know you're ahead of a curve and maybe you're even a little bit irked by Ed Reformers or more than a little bit irked that just oozes through this piece that we're not saying it loud. But why now? What. What motivated you to. To say it at this particular point?

Derrell: 00:10:43

Yeah. So? Well, I mean, the prime motivation was that you were like, yo, you told me you would write something.

Jed: 00:10:50

Wait, Wallace being insufferable.

Derrell: 00:10:52

No, and the other thing, too, is that it's like the, you know, the. I Like music. The magazine I used to run was. Was. Was like an entertainment magazine, so it was a music magazine. So occasionally I.

I title things with song titles and. Say It Loud, it's a James Brown song. And the second half of the line is, I'm black and I'm proud. Right. And that, though, that wasn't why I picked it.

If you listen to the song, you know, James is trying to say a hard thing out loud in a way that makes it real and acceptable. Right? And so, you know, I've been working on charts not as long as you have, but for, like, a lot. A long time.

And maybe it's like a year ago, I was in a board meeting and just like, thinking about the fact that it didn't seem like we were winning the kind of, like, message debate. And this again, it's like, this isn't just about messaging. But, you know, I'd given a speech at a charter school, and the. That was in.

In the same spirit. And the principal afterwards said that was really great to hear. We never talk about what we do like that anymore, you know.

And then I saw this quote from.

I think it was Michael Bennett, and somebody said, you know, why is it that you think, you know, this thing and this charter school stuff and all these other things are going to. Are going to work? And he was like, given the track record of failure that we have, it's on the.

You know, it's incumbent upon the existing system to prove that I shouldn't be trying this.

Jed: 00:12:36

I didn't know that. That's an interesting comment. That's great, right?

Derrell: 00:12:38

Yeah, I have to dig it up. But it was. I mean, it was so good. I sort of.

And then, you know, I've been working a lot on, like, the, you know, no more lines, open enrollment, school zone stuff, you know, whatever.

And when you explore the history of that and it's so, like, obviously intertwined and like, school zoning, school finance, how we assign teachers, all. All this other stuff, I was like, what the fuck are we afraid of?

I'm sorry to say it like that, but it was just like, you know, I'm in these meetings and I'm trying to explain to people why charter school kids deserve, you know, the money that they get. And it's like.

And I'm dancing around all of it, and people are saying, you know, like, they're giving me all these reasons why charter schools, you know, are a problem. And, like, we just completely allied the. The hardwired, you know, challenges of the traditional district system.

And I was like, we just need to talk about this very differently. And frankly.

And, like, part of it, I think, is a little bit of a challenge to us because, like, look, you have a new idea, you're trying to sell people on it. Of course, you make concessions and how you talk about it, which are reflective of how you're.

Of what you're trying to get accomplished, you know, and that's kind of like finance thing. At the same time, like, you get. You set up to be different than something.

Jed: 00:14:03

Right.

Derrell: 00:14:04

And you got to be proud of the difference. I mean, that's. You know, again, like, let's go back to the James Brown joint. Right? He wasn't like, I'm kind of proud of it.

He's like, I'm really proud of it. You know, so. So I.

Yeah, I was in a board meeting, like, a year ago thinking about this stuff and been kind of, like, whispering it a little bit since then. And this was like, a nice chance to kind of kick it out there. And I'm happy to see how the discussion goes from. From here on forward.

Jed: 00:14:30

Yeah, I think this need to say it loud is so prevalent. And I also have just felt so much concern about our unwillingness to say the things that need to be said.

And so, so many of the posts that I encourage people to write or I try to write myself are really in that vein. What is it that needs to be said right now? But I feel like yours did as good a job as any I'm familiar with with five years of doing this work, so.

Which is just great. And I feel as though, you know, I. Our world is sometimes convinced that the right thing to say is the least controversial thing to say.

Derrell: 00:15:13

That's right.

Jed: 00:15:13

Said something that's controversial, then we're doing something wrong.

Derrell: 00:15:17

Right.

Jed: 00:15:18

And I just think that we need to revisit that. We want to stimulate discussion, debate, argument, strong feelings.

And if our advocacy isn't doing that, most likely it's a function of us compromising to such a level that we're not playing the role that society should expect of us.

Derrell: 00:15:37

Yeah. What's his name? Ursula K. Le Guin. Wrote this book called A Wizard of Earthsea. Yeah, it's a fun book. And in the world Of Earthsea.

The way you have power over things is to be able to know their true name. So I just.

I just like, highlight that, not just because I'm a science fiction fiction geek, but because you have to, like, name the thing to get what you want, right? So if you're like, well, you know, I support, you know, a parent's right to choose a charter school, then you have to support the right to.

For the money to flow. Right? I mean, these are the.

These are the same thing, you know, if you support the right of, you know, a school to be different, then you have to support difference, right? These kinds of things, and they're so obvious, and they sort of, like, loop in on one another.

But I do feel like these things have become controversial over. Over time. And like, like, so, for instance, you. You know, I've been in Newark forever or worked in New York forever.

And then, like, you know, five or six years ago, this argument used to come up that was like, well, the charter schools in Newark don't look like the district schools in Newark. And I was like, okay, so there's no school in Newark that looks like the district, Right? The district is an average. Right.

So let's talk about math first, right?

Jed: 00:17:04

Yeah, yeah.

Derrell: 00:17:05

And then the second thing I was was like, well, look, we have a bunch of schools that you get based on where you live, and then we have a bunch of schools that you get based on whether or not you want to be there. Those two things are so wildly different in terms of what motivates people to go. Of course they're going to look different.

But we're, like, running back with blowing kisses about this and trying to explain it away. Like, that's the kind of thing where it's like, the nature of the thing is to look this way. You have to embrace that.

You can't, you know, run away from that.

Jed: 00:17:37

You've got to say it loud. I think Newark is one of our most interesting learning opportunities. I've written about Indianapolis.

I contrast now Indianapolis and New and Newark, because I also, like.

I almost contrast Newark and Camden because, you know, Newark is going in a different direction, which is the only way they can hold on to their enrollment is through these selective admissions and magnets.

ets that have been open since: 1910

Derrell: 00:18:16

That's right.

Jed: 00:18:17

We're going to make schools that a lot of kids can't get into, and we're going to force them to go back to schools, and we're going to suck money away from their schools to subsidize the schools that they're not allowed into. And we sit there, and we will not say it loud.

Derrell: 00:18:30

Yeah, yeah.

Jed: 00:18:31

I mean, look, when we won't say it there, where will we say it?

Derrell: 00:18:34

Derrell, you're getting at something that I think it's the other side of the coin on this. Right? So I. I've argued this. Well, argued implies I've done it loud.

But I have said to people, it's like, look, sometimes you got to lean into your strengths. And I know there are plenty of neighborhood schools out there that district run that are doing fine.

But a lot of my experience has featured school districts whose best who's who only get better by being more selective. So. And there's two ways that you're normally selected. You draw a more exclusive attendance zone that is richer or more segregated. Right.

Or you make a magnet. And so to me, I'm like.

Like, it would be a provocative discussion to be like, okay, so maybe that's what districts should do and get out of the oh, yeah, like, we serve all kids game. Which isn't real. Right. Which. Which I think we know isn't real. And let other actors be like, all right, well, we're the school for X.

Or like, we're the school that closes this gap. Or we're the school that doesn't care how rich your parents are. Or we're the school that doesn't care if you sing particularly well.

You know, whatever. Like that. That's a very, again, like, provocative prop for the future of district schools.

Jed: 00:19:59

Right.

Derrell: 00:20:00

But don't do it undercover and then try to crown the charter guys and be like, yo, you're taking all the good kids. That doesn't work either.

Jed: 00:20:09

Well, predictably, Derrell, you're taking this in a. In a. In a pathway I hadn't foreseen at the beginning of the conversation. So I'll go with this because I. I've got.

I've got a couple questions I want to get to. But. But, you know, you know, your. Your comment in the piece about the money. Talking about the money.

I feel like we shy away from talking about the money generally.

Derrell: 00:20:31

Yeah.

Jed: 00:20:31

And actually, the money is an opportunity for us in Chicago public schools right now, I think, you know, the national example of disaster.

Derrell: 00:20:41

Disaster 100.

Jed: 00:20:43

What are the central bureaucracy is taking money away from schools that parents want to send their kids to and subsidizing schools that parents don't want to send their kids to. And, and there are all sorts of things.

In most states of the, in the country, charter schools have to approve their budgets down to the school level and get audits down to the school level. I think that we win when we go on offense. We say it loud to Brandon Johnson and the crowd there in Chicago.

Show us the money, show us budget down to the school level like we do, get audits down to the school level.

And then when you're sucking thousands and thousands of dollars away from schools that parents want to send their kids to deal with their ire at that point. And the other piece we should be doing is for schools that are having money sucked away from them, we should give them a lifeline.

Please come convert yourself to charter school status. Take control of your destiny. But because we can't talk about the money, right?

We can't talk about the money, then we can't address the foundational issue. It's just another reason why I'm just super excited about what you wrote last week, Jed.

Derrell: 00:21:49

On the one hand, right, we, every kid in America who chooses a charter school becomes a second class citizen of school finance, right?

So that's on, on, on the one side, and there's an argument to be made that like, look like we have a reverse weighted student formula based on what you choose, right? So charter school, you get less, you choose private school, you get less. You know, you do all of these things, right?

But think about how, like how we're rationalizing what you just raised. The CTU in Chicago wants the city to take a rent to center style payday loan to give them a raise, right, that they don't deserve in the district.

But like what, like 30% proficiency. And meanwhile everybody that can get out, beg, borrow, steal, lie, whatever is doing it. I mean it's outright.

So like I'm over here and it's like, yo, Chicago Charter School X, I really don't want to speak up and say, hey, the extra five grand that we don't get because you combined and you get local property taxes or whatever it is. Oh, we'd really love to have like $500 of that.

While over here it's like, no, no, no, the whole city needs to go deep into debt, right, In a way that is completely irrational and irresponsible so we can get ours. Right?

Jed: 00:23:28

Right, right.

Derrell: 00:23:30

And they're saying it Loud, right? They are saying it loud.

Jed: 00:23:33

Yeah, well, I mean, I've been told many, many times, Jen, will you stop talking about the governance model? People don't care about the governance model. Parents don't care if it's a charter or non charter. And it's all true to some extent.

But when we don't talk about governance, when we don't say that school districts by definition are not accountable, if they go under, the state must bail them out. Yeah, yeah, A non profit, if it goes under, it goes away.

And so of course the accountable entity makes decisions are very different from the ones that's not. So yes, talking about money actually matters.

And if we talk about money in the right way, reflecting our values, I believe we will prevail in the public realm. Same thing around governance too, but we're not doing it. And again, why it's so important that you wrote your piece last week.

Derrell: 00:24:24

I was talking to a friend of mine about this and I just want to be clear. I think we need to talk about the money because I think kids in charter schools deserve all of the money.

But we were having a conversation kind of about like agenda, agenda setting, like in particular agenda setting for Democrats in education policy. And I was just kind of like, you know, maybe you shouldn't jump immediately to the policies. Right?

There's some things just like, you know, Democrats should support charter schools because Democrats go to charter schools, right? I mean, like that's, you know, okay, it'd be a no brainer.

But I was like, I ran a session at like the Black and Hispanic Caucus weekend in Albany like five or six years ago. And there was a guy there, an assemblyman from the Bronx, very supportive of charter schools.

You know, there's a lot, a lot of charter schools in the Bronx, some of the best in the world, you know, whatever.

And he was saying, you know, every year I vote to, you know, spend more money on public education in New York state, but the schools in my district still don't have chalk. And so I was kind of like, you know, hey, like this is a higher order question, right?

To your point, about how the systems are organized to do their jobs, if you can, in New York, in New York State, when we say, oh, you're adding more money. We're talking about adding billions all the time, right? This is like incremental money. Like it, it doesn't fit in a wheelbarrow, right?

I mean, you gotta like have a couple of trucks to roll it around basically, right? And I'm like, how is it that you can put a couple of billion dollars in the top and there's no chalk at the bottom.

You know, like, that is not something that happens in the charter school. Right. Like, at least not in the main. And if it did happen, that school goes away. Right.

Or there's such a public outcry about it, the temperature gets turned up, there's going to be an inquisition. Right. Like somebody Torquemada is going to get on somebody, you know, you know about this.

And so these things, like, they are unique and important about charter schools. And the fact that we can do them in charter schools means we can do them elsewhere.

And it's like, you know, like, I wouldn't even know how to answer this without being, like, flip or an about it.

I know there's a tremendous injustice being done to the teachers expecting raises, to the kids who want chalk, to the, you know, the people who need to paint walls and fix ceilings and all this other kind of stuff. All legitimate concerns that happen when you put a billion in the top and you can't get talk at the bottom.

Jed: 00:27:08

Right. Right. Well, I think that, you know, just continuing to. To say what needs to be said here, I think is super important. And I.

You know, another area that you've. You've. You've been bringing up here is this free public, open to all. And I. Do you mind? I just got a text today. This morning. I wanted to.

I wouldn't do this, but. This comes from charterfolk board member Jim Gunner. He is familiar with the new authorizing playbook. What do they call it? The authorizing benchmarks.

By. Approved by the state of Arkansas. At the top of that very long document, they have a quote by one Jed Wallace. And here's what it says.

Let's not define ourselves by the similarities we share with other public schools, but rather by the unique characteristics, movement, and processes that make charter schools distinct and innovative. If we fail to embrace and uphold what sets us apart, we risk turning the floor into the ceiling.

Charter schools are intentionally different by design. Let's honor and build upon that distinction. Now, frankly, I had forgotten that I had never even written that thing. I had to go back. I hate to say it.

Derrell: 00:28:31

I stole. I stole your stuff. I didn't. I feel like I was quoting you.

Jed: 00:28:37

Well, the similarities between there, you know, and what you wrote here, it's just like, hey, look, yes, free, public and open to all. We want to. We want to reinforce that we are public schools.

Derrell: 00:28:48

Yeah.

Jed: 00:28:48

You know, the number of schools. I really think one of the most important things we could do is get every charter school organization to get the word charter back into its name.

Like, we're afraid of it, we're ashamed of it, whatever. Whenever people say, what's a charter school? I'm fine.

If they say, I don't know, but it's whatever harmony is, I don't know, but it's whatever rocket ship is. Right. But we've taken it out and, you know, you really tapped into this as well. What additional nuance would you offer in this area?

Derrell: 00:29:17

No, I mean, it's, it's like, you know, I'm a big Stanley Kubrick fan and there's this great part in Full Metal Jacket where Arlee army and Matthew Modine are talking about Christmas. I'll just, I'll try to leave it as secular as possible.

And in the end, he goes, look, I know if I change, if I change my, you know, my answer, you're only going to beat me harder. And I feel like this has been the thing, right. Which I love that, like a lot of.

And I, I, maybe there's an insight about this, but it's like, you know, a lot of like really well meaning, very capable people who are in chart in charter world think that the, the closer we come to presenting ourselves as coterminous part of the same family, whatever, like there are lots of different ways to, to, to think about it. To traditional public schools. The more accepted, the more accepted we will be by traditional public schools. Right, right.

And so one, I don't think traditional public schools are the audience. Families are. Right?

Jed: 00:30:29

Yeah.

Derrell: 00:30:30

So. And if you define your audience as traditional public schools, you're going to behave one way.

If you define it as families, you're going to behave another.

So, you know, that's kind of the, the, the first thing, the second thing is that doing so does not seem to have mollified the people who don't like charter school. Charter schools.

Jed: 00:30:49

Exactly.

Derrell: 00:30:50

Exactly.

So if, if I was rolling up to the NEA headquarters and now, oh, Derrell, so happy to have you, charter school, you know, if that was happening, I might be like, oh, yeah, let's, let's do something different, but that's not happening. Right. And so I, I don't, you know, the, I don't think it's hard to, to say out loud that there are different kinds of public schools.

And, you know, I'm very supportive of magnet schools. You know, you don't hear magnet school people running around talking about public magnet. They just have a magnet, you know, like I'm a magnet.

They talk about what they are not where they're from or like, how they're governed or whatever. And I remember telling a kid, it's like, you know, one of our fellows, he was like, what exactly is a charter school?

And I was like, it's a public school, is not run by a district. You know, and that, like, that just seems so easy and simple.

So I'm, you know, I'm proud of the fact that nonprofit governance authorizers, parent choice and, and Dallas Follow the Child, you know, have created an environment where kids and families can match their hopes and dreams with what independent and aspirational people in charter world feel like they can do to deliver that. Yeah, that's magic right there.

Jed: 00:32:20

Yeah.

Derrell: 00:32:20

And there's nothing to be ashamed of about that. Like, we should be, you know, we should say it loud. Like, we should be singing about that from the, you know, from the mountaintop.

Jed: 00:32:31

Well, I've been talking about Dems. You brought up Dems just a couple minutes ago. I wanted to ask on that as well, but people don't need to hear from me on this. I'm ad nauseam.

I've been writing about what's going on with Dems, but share your observations. We're in this moment where Dems are considering again.

I mean, Ezra Klein at the New York Times says that the Democratic Party is at risk of becoming known to be the defenders of that which doesn't work. And public education is clearly, you know, within that. Right. And he's pissed off. They need to change such they can be defenders of things that work.

But what exactly that translates into? I think a lot of it comes down to us. How good is our advocacy and are we going to, like, draw people in our direction?

But what are you seeing from, from your perch at 50 cam?

Derrell: 00:33:15

Yeah, I mean, just like, you know, it's pretty good policy to support things. It's pretty good politics to support things that people like. It's pretty bad politics to support things that people don't like. Right.

And so you can look at any poll and anybody, like, basically everybody except the richest white progressives in the most exclusive school zones are like, I like this public school choice thing. I like this charter school thing. That's. That's good. We should have more public schools of choice, you know, of all kinds. Right.

But, but yeah, I'm down with the charter school thing in, in New Mexico. It's like our pulling theirs through the roof. Like, people are like, yeah, we want, you know, more of this. Right.

Jed: 00:33:58

And so, yeah, Matt was sharing that with me. It's amazing.

Derrell: 00:34:00

You look at the, you know, Chuck Todd in the, in the rubble of the, of the November elections and I like people don't notice about me. I, I vote in Democratic primaries, right. I know I'm kind of a wild card, but I, I do do that, right? And so, and always have done that.

So you know, he was like, look, if you're trying to find out why, you know, so many Hispanic families, you know, in Texas basically have gone the other way. You know, they like school choice, right? Like there are 80,000 more kids in charter schools in Texas over the last five years.

I mean, you're running on killing these things. They're like, why are you gonna take my school away?

You know, so I just think on the one hand, like the practical, you know, implications of embracing charter schools as a way to build constituency is a no brainer. And honestly, Republicans have figured this out, right? They, they figured out the more like when we give families what they want, they get on board.

Look at Arizona, right? Look at, look at Arkansas where they did ESAs and raise the charter cap at the same time, eliminate the charter cap at the same time.

You know, like that, that kind of stuff. So there's, I don't think there's a downside to that. Here's the other part of this and I'm going to be more like acerbic about it here.

, I remember in the spring of: 2020

I just given the Charter Schools Association's speech on that Friday the 13th before the world ended, right?

Jed: 00:35:34

Yeah.

Derrell: 00:35:34

And so I was like, close it all down. I always, I always sort of say this right? So people know where I was. And then by August I was kind of like, oh man, this is all political.

I'm like, there was stuff going on in the rest of the world and people were opening schools and whatever. And then like, you know, my, my view on like our position was kind of like if you want in person, you should be able to get it right.

made like a really bad bet in: 2020

The bet was we're going to let you keep schools closed longer than we should as a way to ratchet pressure up, up on Trump so we can oust it. And the payback for that is going to be $190 billion.

You can spend it on recurring expenses even though it's non recurring because after Trump is gone and we Run the table. We're just going to put more of it on the federal balance sheet. Right. And the cost of that has been outrageous for kids. Right.

Like the learning loss is basically locked in. It's really bad. And the Democrats have sort of abdicated their education agenda along the way.

The problem with this bet is that it has failed spectacularly, totally, in every way.

And not only do we have the trifecta at the congressional level now, but the entire country is more conservative than it was eight years ago, basically. Right.

So if you're a Democratic leader, you gotta be like, when I'm standing next to these people, what do I get versus what I'm standing next to these people? What do I get? You know, and it's look, 50 cam. We're half from blue states, half from red sticks.

Like our secret sauce is that we want to be able to win no matter who is in charge.

Jed: 00:37:20

Yeah.

Derrell: 00:37:21

So that. That is our stance. But if you're a partisan, you know, you got to be like. Like this is all downside.

Jed: 00:37:29

Yeah.

Derrell: 00:37:31

Maybe we should revisit the whole conversations. And look, maybe it's not essays or whatever, but how can it not be charters? Yeah.

Jed: 00:37:41

I mean, I think that this relates to. Say it loud, frankly. We know that the Democrats have the constituency of the teachers unions and other public employee unions.

And I think we're also at a moment where many people are realizing that the control of the Democratic Party from that constituency is running the risk of the entire Democratic Party being unelectable.

Derrell: 00:38:09

I agree.

Jed: 00:38:09

And so I think one thing that we could do is have please come. Please come with new policy proposals. That's why I think your work on red lines and some of these issues around money, I think they actually matter.

And I think we can actually win in the public realm as it relates to that. But a part of this also is that we must attach those that want to protect the status quo to the tragedy that is emerging within the status quo.

And that requires us to say loud. That what is happening in those places is just terribly unacceptable.

And until we get to the point where we can say that this evolution of Democratic Party politics just ain't going to happen.

Derrell: 00:38:51

Yeah. You, like, you hit on two super important things.

You know, one of the things I've observed, particularly after the pandemic, is that so many people are sort of hurt, disaffected or whatever that people don't want to talk about it anymore.

Jed: 00:39:06

Yeah.

Derrell: 00:39:07

And it's like day class say to bring it up, you know, and so that's why I Keep bringing it up because you can't. You can't let that. You can't let these sort of. What's the word? It was like, like a port, a point of high fault, you know, like stay in the system.

Right. So. So that's the. The. The one side of it. The other side of it is that not talking about it. And you.

I think you see this in how states have held their data longer than they should, or cut. Cut, like lowered cut scores when nobody was looking. You know, this kind of stuff.

Now there's kind of like this postmodern take to just get everybody around a new lower normal that. That doesn't send up a red flag.

Jed: 00:39:57

Yeah.

Derrell: 00:39:58

Or that doesn't alarm anyone. And that ain't good either. Right. And so, So I do think we need to get back to a place of, you know, like, caring about what happened.

Jed: 00:40:10

Right, right.

Derrell: 00:40:12

I gotta laugh to keep from crying because it's like, you know, like, like, like Democrats in particular. Right. It's supposed to be the party of data.

And the fact that, you know, New York says, oh, you get your test scores when you get them, and that the regents, you know, don't matter anymore. Like, I mean, how is. How is that like. And, and nobody talks about it. Right. Like, the. The governor doesn't talk about it.

You know, like, you're lucky we got a little bit of science or reading going on, but, like, it's just not. It's not even there. So. So yeah, I'm. I'm very much aboard the idea that, like, you can't.

You can't be different than something if you can't compare it to something.

Jed: 00:40:53

Right.

Derrell: 00:40:54

And not talking about it doesn't give you something to compare it to.

Jed: 00:40:58

Absolutely. Well, I think that I describe what's going on in the Democratic Party or in the Democratic world as gray divorce.

Knowing friends and 60s that are splitting up. Oh, my God. And fortunately, you know, my wife seems to be able to put up with me so far.

Derrell: 00:41:14

Great.

Jed: 00:41:15

Divorce is a reality. And I believe that there's gray divorce happening in the Democratic Party on education issues. Meanwhile, on the Republican side, I can.

I consider it the honeymoon period, the. The infatuation period.

They're super excited about these ESA and voucher programs, and they're not really looking at the faults that are there within their partner that a year or two into their relationship, they're ultimately going to have to contend with. The question I have for you, Derrell, is how.

How wise is it, if at all, for us to point out that there Are some issues in this infatuation relationship that they have and that they may want to be getting ready for or is it best just let them, they're going to emerge anyway. Let them learn them in their own sweet time.

And let's keep conversations around our values so we know what to propose if and well when the Republicans are ready to fix some of these faults in their new system here.

Derrell: 00:42:13

Yes, two great questions.

So I will say that believe it or not, even among people who are very supportive of ESAs or and these other things, we too are like, you gotta be ready for the fallout, right? Or challenges or new things or whatever. Because, and I just wanna say this, it's like, you know, an ESA is not like a voucher, right?

An ESA is a revolution in school finance that enables lots of things, right? A voucher is like, gets you a seat somewhere, you know, and so that is so new that it's its own thing.

And so I don't, I don't think charter leaders need to elbow drop ESAs or whatever. You know, I know you and I have talked about this.

I frankly think that charter schools have a real role to play in ESA world, offering courses and enrichment and a whole bunch of other stuff as a provider.

You know, I think the ESA opportunity lowers the cost to try for an existing charter school that's like, oh, we have this new idea and a classroom, maybe the 10 families want to come in, we try it out together, you know, that kind of stuff. So I think, I think there's a lot there.

The more important thing I just think is that like, this is a moment particularly for charter school people to revisit some of the things that I kind of talk about in my, in my piece, right? So if the, if the temperature for change, because, you know, Republicans support charter schools, but they support other kinds of choice too.

Yeah, if the temperature for change is so hot that people are like, yeah, we're going to, yeah, we're just going to write some checks, yeah, we're going to get families money and see what they do. Then certainly a conversation about like, well, why doesn't local property tax wealth follow a kid to a charter school?

Or why do we have this prohibition on facilities thing or any of these other things?

Or like, why am I, you know, why do I have to submit purchase orders for stuff the way the district does when I'm supposed to be out from under all this stuff?

Why are these, why does my principal need this kind of certification, you know, instead of whatever, like we, you know, we should be Going in and asking for all that stuff too.

If not just because, hey, we want to compete, you know, or, hey, the continuum is broader between monopoly and market now, because there's other things there, you know, if not now, when? Totally.

Jed: 00:44:50

Well, I wrote this morning about the time has come for the charter school movement to plant its feet. Andy was encouraging me to write that one. But I also think there's a different.

Planting our feet, I think, is having a more creative, expansive policy agenda that reflects our values proactively, proactively asserted, not done at the last second, when somebody, somebody else is choosing the moment and the context and all that stuff. But I think that there's also a difference between planting your feet and stamping your feet.

And there are ways for us to be just petulant or just not politically savvy, doing it at the wrong time. And this is one of the things I think Starlee is actually very spot on to right now, and I think we would benefit from listening to her.

And, and it may not be the time for us to stamp our feet, but if we avoid stamping our feet, we're ma. We may be able to plant our feet longer term in ways that I think our entire movement will end up feeling proud of in the end.

Derrell: 00:45:46

Yeah, I mean, Starlee's great and, you know, I'm very happy to get to work with her and, and support her and her political acumen are. Are unique, you know, and I think the, you know, the. Obviously, Texas is Texas, but it doesn't happen, you know, for nothing. Right. So.

So it just, you know, kind of two things. On the one hand, this is a great example.

So if you are a charter school supporter in Texas, just like Louisiana last year, whatever, where the governor is like, hey, we're doing this ESA thing or whatever, the worst thing you can do is tell the governor he's wrong. Right. So maybe plant your feet, you know, in that one.

At the same time, I feel like this has been, this has been hard because this was like a hypothesis of earlier, earlier on. It.

It predates me, but certainly I know, you know, it, you know, look, it makes common sense that if you come up with a school that writes a historic wrong and closes achievement gaps, so low income, kids of color so they can go on to be the best version of themselves, that the politics should just line up behind that. Right. That's logical.

Jed: 00:46:58

Right.

Derrell: 00:46:59

And. And unfortunately, that logical premise has not held itself out in the way that I think we want. We want it to, you know.

Jed: 00:47:08

Right.

Derrell: 00:47:08

And so now, you know, like the stamping your feet is being political because there's a point where you can try to convince people, and if they don't want to be convinced, you have to change them.

Jed: 00:47:19

Yep.

Derrell: 00:47:20

And I think that too is another kind of like culture change among charter supporters and charter leaders and charter families and whatever, you know, you, you want people who support you, you know, and who support the time and effort you are putting into your kids so they can become, you know, the person you want them to be. And that too is an evolution. And I think there are lots of state charter associations and certainly the alliance that are moving in that direction.

Jed: 00:47:52

Well, Derrell, this has gone in very different direction than what I was anticipating. And when I sent you an outline, we've just gone all over the place.

But let me just try to wrap things up by putting two questions in front of you that I wanted to get to. The first, I'd love to hear your thoughts about, about 50 can.

And you're on the board of the national alliance, and yet you're, you know, a senior executive president at 50 CAN.

How do you see these organizations or how do you think the overall architecture of advocacy for charter schools and reform should, should fit together? Seems like I wrote today, I'm really excited that Starlee is creating a C4 at the national organization.

She's getting tighter relationships with the associations. I think those association relationships is a spine upon which we can build all sorts of strength, but we can't do it all ourselves.

And yet also, though we've seen a lot of other advocacy organizations come and go, come and go, and the impermanence and the change has been counterproductive. How does 50 can fit in here in a long term way such that we build our collective strength for the long term?

Derrell: 00:49:01

Yeah. So, so the first thing is that, like, and this is going to sound like a McKinsey consultant thing, but it's not, you know, like, no duplication.

And when I say no duplication, I mean know and respect each other's strengths and expertise. And so state, you know, education is the state, state game. We have 10 state campaigns.

I don't know a tenth of what our 10 state campaigns know in their states, because I'm not in them. Right.

And so, so I can push on goals and everything else, but at some point I got to be like, all right, well, you're there, like, what is the, what is the thing? Right. And so certain with the alliance and, and, and states and their relationships, you know, complementary and not duplicative. Right.

So I think that's an important framing and our relationships meaning 50 CAN chapters across the country with Harvard, you know, charter champions and, and The alliance and CSAs, you know, whatever is the same way. Like there are some states where we are much better deployed on the political side.

And so it's like, so, you know, so we're working in coalition with the national alliance and the local CSA and other people and we're recruiting candidates, you know, on a. On our C4 side and the 50k in action fund and doing mailers and doing stuff that those guys don't want to have to do.

Jed: 00:50:32

Right, right.

Derrell: 00:50:34

So we're doing that.

And then there are other places where we have better grassroots, you know, and we're helping, we're helping charter schools organize their parents and motivate the parents and understand the issues and show up at the state House and somebody else is running independent expenditures or, you know, and those kinds of things. And none of us basically are working at the federal level.

Jed: 00:50:56

Right.

Derrell: 00:50:57

Because it's somebody doing that.

But if, if we got a call in Georgia that said, you know, Congressman X is, you know, needs to be convinced we could do that, that kind of thing, sort of collaboration, I think is, is vital not just because it's more efficient.

Jed: 00:51:17

Right, right.

Derrell: 00:51:18

But because in a universe where you, to your point, you need organizations with longevity that send a message that we're not a flash in a pan, that we're a movement that can be here and support you over a long period of time as teachers unions do.

Jed: 00:51:34

Right.

Derrell: 00:51:36

Then the whole thing works. You know, like funders are like, all right, I'm part of something bigger than me.

You know, electeds are like, hey, these guys aren't going to give me money. I take a risk and they go, they go away.

And more importantly, we don't get our wires crossed at the local level where like the wrong mailer goes out and, you know, the speaker says, no, no, you're not for me, you know, which is. Which is a kind of thing that can happen. So.

Jed: 00:52:01

Right.

Well, I think that longevity and permanence is so important and I think it's why I believe political and advocacy endowments for advocacy organizations are so important. And I've been talking about this for a long time.

I did have a very key friend come up to me at some point and say, Jed, you, you've got to stop talking about political endowments. Your state associations and the National Alliance's governance is not seen as strong enough to make. Be a good steward of that volume of resources.

You're basically asking donors to give a billion dollars to a frat house. That makes no sense. Shut up. Shut up. Don't say it loud. But that's one where I've said, I hear you, I hear you.

But I'm going to keep saying this loud because there is no answer here. We must have permanence.

And when we can project permanence, but on our C4 side, but also for an organization like 50 CAN, we can project permanence such that we can be in partnership with our state association long enough to get better at it over time. This is where the success really happens. So you're being involved with both. It's just so important.

And, you know, you just, you find yourself right in the perfect place to say say it loud over and over again. Okay, let me ask this last question. This was supposed to be like, early on, you know this. You're probably like, wallace, where's the comment?

When's it coming? I think, I mean, whatever. I believe that your comment is of a moment. It is of a moment.

I don't think this could have been written two years ago or four years ago, probably, maybe it should have been or. But I also feel the reason it's resonating with our, with our community is we, we can see it, we can recognize how spot on it is.

And it's making me think we're like Zuckerberg, you know, on their, on its pivot, you know, on, on free speech and all this stuff. And it's possible to look at Zuckerberg and say, oh, it's all one cynical political ploy and all that kind of stuff.

But when, when I listen to him, I actually am fairly convinced that he's returning to first principles and he just feels more comfortable talking about it in that way. And he knows that's where Meta should be for the long term.

I'm getting a sense that the charter school world is, is coming through a moment where we've been perhaps excessively apologetic, where we've been excessively silent, excessively ambivalent, and we're recognizing it now. And I can't wait to see what's going to be on the other side of our Zuckerberg moment. But tell me if I'm wrong here. Do you see something comparable?

Derrell: 00:54:25

No, I think that's a, that's a great analysis. You know, like, I'm trying to remember what, what the term is he. He uses for. But Todd Rose talks about this too.

And, and it's, you know, people are social and the loudest voices can change how we perceive Our realities in ways that are outsized, given to the power that the voice commands. And so what I think you're seeing with Zuckerberg right now, even though it is a return to first principles, it is really a lagging indicator, right?

The, the quietly many of us feel like you can't say what you want to say. And what we've all been waiting for is for somebody to stand up and be like, you know, that's a problem.

And then when somebody does it, everybody's like, oh, I feel that way. I feel the same way. Right. And so it's not, it's not that it's not brave or self interested or any of these things.

What it is, is wildly timely and precisely in line with what the kind of gestalt is. But nobody's saying it out loud, right? And I think the charter thing, again, it's like, it's all well intentioned.

Like a lot of this stuff starts from the best place, right? You're like, yeah, you know, maybe I shouldn't say that, maybe I shouldn't do that. Well, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And over time, so much, so much sort of friction is accreted that all that can happen is, is that it has, is, is an explosion, you know. And so the, I think, I feel like, you know, the charter stuff's in the same place.

I, like, I don't clearly, given your quote in the, in the Arkansas thing, I don't manifest these ideas on my own. Right. Unless you get from osmosis, you know.

But I do know, I do know that like this movement is filled with free spirits who want to try new things and do new things. And that has not been the temperature for the last like couple of years.

And that doesn't just these people, they don't just not become who they are, you know, just like, like I'm not waking up tomorrow with hair, it's not happening. So I, I, I just, you know, I'm, I'm excited. Like, I feel like the political landscape has changed substantially.

I feel like there's a greater opportunity to try new things like, or for risk or, or whatever. And along with that is a chance to remember who we were at our best and not apologize for the best things that we've done.

Jed: 00:57:27

Well before.

Almost immediately before getting on this call, I had another call with a very respected leader in the country who has a big speech to make this week. And this person read your piece and decided to tear up what he had previously written and wanted it to be his version of say it loud.

So, Derrell, it's just. You're a treasure for our movement. You're a treasure for our movement. You're a treasure for all of us.

And you've been a treasure for Charterfolk at different points. And don't be surprised. I mean, I'm insufferable. I'll wait until it's another major milestone.

I don't know if it's 25,000 or 40,000 or whatever it is, but when there is a moment that requires that special insight and that special passion, you know, I'm always going to be turning back to Derrell Bradford. So thank you so much for being a part of this today and look forward to continuing to. To make all sorts of mission together going forward.

Derrell: 00:58:26

Awesome. Thank you very much for having me, Jed. I appreciate it.

Jed: 00:58:28

Oh, I know.