This week, in episode 3 of The Retail Wave Makers, Nadine Heubel hosts her own boss, Simon Black, Executive Managing Director of Newmark.

Simon sheds light on his 23 year history in travel retail and the parallels that can be drawn between airport and cruise retail. He also shares invaluable insight into changing customer behaviour and habits, offering the audience predictions of upcoming trends in retail globally. Nadine and Simon discuss in detail the great innovation within the cruise retail sectors that sets a precedent for other industry's, and Nadine grills Simon about why he has never before taken a cruise!

Hello to everybody from around the world.

Welcome to The Retail Wave Makers, a Seatrade Cruise Talks

Podcast. My name is Nadine Heubel. I'm the Senior Managing

Director, Travel Retail North America at Harper Dennis Hobbs.

But today, I'm talking to you as the Retail Ambassador for

Seatrade. Retail has been going from strength to strength in the

cruise industry. And I'm grateful for Seatrade to have

acknowledged this development by creating a retail Ambassador

role, which I am honored to have been appointed to. Part of my

responsibility is to create further awareness for this

exciting sector amongst cruise industry peers. And what better

way to do it than creating our own podcast miniseries The

retail Wave Makers Podcast. In this podcast series, I will

welcome different stakeholders of the cruise retail industry,

cruise lines, retailers, vendors and consultants. And I will

discuss with my guests the state of the cruise retail industry.

We have a lineup of amazing guests, and we will hear from

them firsthand about latest innovations initiative

challenges and their personal outlook of the future of cruise

retail. And we will also get a little personal with our rapid

fire questions at the end of the podcast. All my guests are

special. But today my guest is extra special. And I will tell

you why in a minute. But let me introduce him first. Our guests

in episode three is Simon Black, Executive Managing Director of

Harper Dennis Hobbs and Newmark company. Simon is an

internationally recognized travel retail authority. He has

so far enjoyed 23 year career in travel retail, working for and

with the world's leading brands and travel hubs. Simon started

his career at the British Airport Authority (BAA) and held

various positions in their retail division. In 2006 post

the breakup of the BAA Simon remained with Heathrow Airport,

and during his eight years with his rose, he led the

transformation of the luxury offer into the world class

proposition it remains today. Growing the revenue from his

category from 73 million pounds to over 250 million pound. Simon

can be credited with persuading Louis Vuitton to open their

first European airport store in Heathrow

terminal five. And this was their second airsoft store

globally, and their first directly operated store. This

store was to become really the first significant expansion into

global travel retail for the brand. After almost 10 years at

Heathrow Airport, Simon joined British luxury brands Meissen to

lead their travel retail and international business. He

joined HGH in 2016. And since then Simon has grown the travel

retail division at HGH into Europe's largest travel retail

advisory business. And why did I say that Simon is extra special?

Well, first of all, Simon is my boss. And when does one have the

opportunity to welcome her boss on her podcast. And secondly,

Simon has never set foot on a cruise ship. But before I will

grill him about this, let's give him a warm welcome. Simon. Great

to have you on the show.

Thank you, Nadine and what a welcome.

Thank you so much for agreeing to come on the show

here, Thank you.

Sure. I just want to thank you know Seatrade and

yourself for having me on the podcast. I think it's a great

series so far from the ones I've listened to already. I think

you've done a fantastic job.

Thank you. That means a lot. But now let's talk

a little bit about you. So could you share with us your scope of

responsibility? So what HDH exactly do and how is your

company or our company involved in the travel retail channel?

So yeah, our company absolutely our company

very much our company HGH is based in London, but we work

very much internationally. Principally, we are a retail

advisory business specializing in working with somewhere around

200 different retailers, f&b brands, concepts and an

operator's in retail. And we're helping them find you know, some

of the best stores all over the world for them to create some

amazing and memorable experiences. That's our

principal core business activity. The travel retail

division has been going since 2012, at HGH. And as Nadine, as

you said, in your intro, we've grown over those years to

definitely become you know, Europe's largest business in

this sector. And we love helping brands build their presence and

build their brands and travel retail in many different ways.

We help them start shaping and developing their strategies and

then implementing it. That could mean you know, helping them find

stores and airports all over the world. That could mean helping

them get listings on airlines getting their products and

brands raised on board cruise ships, or in airport duty free

stores. We also have a team within the travel team that

specializes in working with airports and all over the world

on their kind of commercial strategies. And you know, we're

really, really focused on because we put the customer at

the heart of any commercial strategy. And that's really the

principles that we kind of employ when we're working with

airports globally, making sure that the consumer is front and

center of their strategy. We love helping airports and train

stations and travel hubs to really shape their commercial

strategies for the next five to 10 years.

Thank you for explaining. And of course, you

know, I'm a little biased, but it's great fun to be part of the

team. It's it's a great team. And it's amazing that I have the

opportunity to really expand what you have already started

developing now also into the into the Americas. So yeah,

great fun to be part of your team.

Absolutely. And there's huge potential in the

Americas. And as we're already kind of getting going, so it's

fantastic. And you've been a great fit so far Nadine.

Thank you. But now let's, let's not talk about

me, we need to talk about you. So as mentioned in the intro,

you have not been on a cruise yet...

Not yet!

And we'll talk about this in a second. But

I completely agree with you sometimes, you know, when we

let's talk first about your extensive experience at the

airport channel and working for an airport authority working for

a brand as we have heard and now also really heading up retail

consultancy company in travel retail. How has airport Retail

evolved since the time you started in this business 23

years ago, enormously, enormously and I think not just

airport retail a travel retailing genuinely has changed

enormously during that time. Like most things in life changes

constant and you find that some things move on and embrace

change and develop and sometimes others don't and, and that's not

too dissimilar to the travel retail channel, you know, that

we love and we cherish and we're proud of. For me, the two key

things that have changed in airport retailing over the space

of my career so far have been retailers and brands perception

of travel retail, and then any airports or even stations or

crews or airlines their commercial thinking. I remember

when I joined airport retailing I joined the old British

Airports Authority as it was was it was it was back then based in

the UK, airports were predominantly occupied by large

operators. You know, back in those days, it was had the likes

of Alfa and Nance and Royal Duty Free. And they used to run

everything in airports, the offer was poor, there weren't

many, you know, well known or high street brands, it was very

limited, then the environment that you know, airports offered

for those brands. It wasn't great either, you know, there

wasn't a good environment. And many brands didn't want to put

their brands or their products in that environment. And that

was a big barrier to entry for those those two components was

similar to the cruise industry, not just airport retailing back

then, the cruise the airline world and in any kind of the

channels in travel retail. I look back now over the last 23

years, not one to be specific. But that has all now changed. I

liken travel retail to the six continents of retailing, you

know two key components have changed as our commercial

thinking that the landlord's out there, you know, the operators,

their commercial thinking has changed. And brands and

retailers have really begun to understand the importance of

travel retail and how this channel can play a key role in

their in their businesses and in the strategies. We've seen

airports, they've changed their mentality, they've become more

commercially minded and focused. The changes in the aeronautical

revenues over the last sort of, you know, 20 years have forced

many airports, in some cases to become more focused on their

commercial revenues. And that certainly helped. But from both

sides, you know, from a retailer and a brand side on the airport

side, I think they really understood that there was an

unrivaled consumer base and travel retail. And this is one

of things I absolutely love. There really is, you know, there

are billions of people traveling globally, whether that's, you

know, for an airport on a cruise ship on an airline, there are

billions and where else do you get that kind of audience,

travel retail has then started to become seen as a showcase and

as a shop window for brands globally, and they really

started to embrace it. And this has been coupled with, as I

said, the change in airport environments. And you just have

to look at yesterday and Doha Hamad opening their new

extension in their airport and that is absolutely fabulous.

airport retailling and the environments when I joined 23

years ago were dark old terminals, low ceilings, there

weren't proper commercial plazas. These days. Airports

offer some of the best you know, retail plazas in the world. You

know, they have fantastic commercial offers. Don't get me

wrong, not all airports are great. And we've still got a lot

of work to do as an industry but the environments have changed,

you know, new terminal infrastructures Come on. And

when airports have invested in those new terminal

infrastructures, you know, the commercial the retail the F&B

talk about, like, what was 23 years ago, I feel quite old,

offers are now really integral part of that designing and you

then I hesitate to you know, reflect about 23 years, 25

see that in the in the in the design and the launches. I mean,

years. But on the other hand, as you also said, when when I

I said Doha Hamad airport is a great case study for that

looked at the pictures of Doha airport this morning, I felt

like oh my God, this is really amazing where we came and where

fantastic, stunning environment. Absolutely. If you're a brand or

the journey took us. I like what you said about that really

retailer, you want your brand to be in that environment. I think

change is constant. I think that's a very important one that

we really have to embrace change. And I think the travel

I've also seen over the last years is a mentality shift and

retail industry is really one which embraces change, and is a

in a changing behavior between airports and brands. There's new

very resilient industry as well.

It is I wish we would embrace change faster

collaborations. Airports have started less thinking like

learning. There are certain areas where you always lag

behind maybe domestic retail. There are some good reasons for

landlords just collecting the base rents and I remember when I

that, and some not so good reasons. Yeah.

That's true. So maybe let's talk about change a

started most of the Commercial income was coming from

little bit more than so what do you see as the biggest consumer

guaranteed minimums. And in some cases, it still is in some

trends? And how will they shape the travel retail industry going

airports around the world. But predominantly, now that business

forward?

Well, as you know, Nadine, you know, now being

part of HDH, it's, you know, we spent a lot of time looking at

model has shifted, airports are working more collaborative, more

what are the biggest consumer trends out there at the moment?

You know, what, what's going to what the consumer is going to be

like the department store model. They're working more

doing in the next five to 10 years? And and how does that

kind of link back to travel retail? There's two parts to

collaboratively with brands and retailers. Because working

this question. For me. The first one is some trends that we're

together, you drive greater sales, and therefore you drive

seeing right now. We call it in HGH. And I think it's widely

greater commercial returns for both of you this kind of

reported, you know, the fashion in wellness. But this is a huge

trend. This is, you know, I think COVID has really

question, it prompted me and I look back over the last 25

accelerated this trend. In some ways, I think we're far more

years, and I think one of the other bigger changes has

health conscious, we're far more aware of it from a food and

happened has been, apart from COVID, sadly hitting us in the

beverage point of view, we're far more aware of where our food

comes from, where it's sourced what we're putting in our

last years, is that there has been consistent passenger growth

bodies. And then from a conscious consumer perspective,

in this channel, when I started, there was just under 1.5 billion

we are now far more aware of where the products are coming

from, you know, the brands we engage with, and I think for for

passengers traveling annually. Now in 2019, just before COVID,

retailers and brands out there. Now, it's simply not enough to

it was four and a half billion, that's more than double. And I

be sustainable. And you have to be ethical, you have to, it's

all about consumption. You know, on this point, you just have to

think those volumes, have really, really made brands and

look at the amount of big brands and retailers out there now

retailers you know, sit up and think about this channel. And we

investing heavily in the resale business. This is part of being

have a fantastic channel we have today for for those reasons I've

you know, ethical and looking at your consumption and not being

as materialistic as we used to be. And this consumer trend is

just kind of outlined.

with us right now, and is growing hugely isn't something

that it's not going to die away, absolutely not going to die

away, I mean, millennials and Gen Z, they will have grown up

and they're going to be the affluent consumers to attract in

the next 10 years. And these groups of people, they've grown

up in a digitally enabled world, and they're far more better

research than we ever were in the past. They are, you know,

they understand the world, probably a greater than, than we

ever understand it. And then you need to think about, you know,

generation alpha, since those you people who were born after

2010, and they're going to be the youth movement in 10 years

time, your strategy is going to be focused towards them, you

know, they're going to be engaging in retail in a

completely different way. And some of the big consumer trends

are, you know, going to continue rolling on, I think, you know,

becoming growing importance in the next 1020 years, there is

this big push back now against globalization, some of it sadly,

has come about because of kind of the world we're living in

right now with the conflict in Russia and Ukraine, with the

energy crisis, and a lot of political instability

everywhere, sadly, but, you know, consumers are increasingly

looking now to find something special, they don't want that

product that's sold everywhere, they want to engage with, you

know, products that they can't find globally. They want to

engage with brands that have a truly ethical and sustainable,

you know, business and have it and have an amazing story. I

think COVID Will it certainly done is as recalibrated the word

sustainability or that whole industry. I mean, I think for

the first time COVID really showed us the impact that we're

having on our planet, you know, when planes were stopped flying

pollution levels globally decreased, I think everyone was

is increasingly conscious of that now and I think that is you

know, going forward really going to shape and be it's such an

important trend is something we absolutely all need to be

embracing. Where this is kind of leading to is that you know,

retail stores are no longer going to be those kind of

necessarily those transactional places in terms of bricks and

mortar retailing. I mean, they need to be you know, brand

building, be engaging stores. You need to have members of

people going to want to have memorable experiences and those

are the transactions may not take placed in those stores any

longer, but they are going to be the hub of of that brand and,

and retailers and brands need to embrace that, especially with

these three generations that are quickly coming upon us and

they're going to be the future. It's all about investment in the

digital ecosystem. That is where my kids are living today. And in

every you know, anyone who's got kids out there that their kids

are living in the digital world in the world in the metaverse,

you know, in the decentraland. And it is increasingly going to

be heading in that direction. We're already in broadly living

in that world.

It is!

When my five year old asked me Daddy, can I have

some money pleased to buy a new avatar outfit, you know, it's

astonishing is mind boggling for me. But that's the world they're

living in and, and a huge amounts of money are already

exchanged and placed in the metaverse and I think that's a

big, big trend we're gonna see. And I also think what's really

interesting is those hyperlocal living, we became grounded, we

were forced to become a bit grounded. And we are all as

consumers. Now, I think, you know, we're really conscious of

our neighborhood, we're more so than probably we ever have done.

And one thing that came out of it COVID probably gave was, you

know, since checking out our local environment and our local

ecosystems, we're now supporting more local coffee chains,

restaurants and retailers. I think some of the big retailers

out there are realizing this. And if you look at IKEA, for

example, they've opened up some very, very small IKEA hubs, some

places in London, and they're very, very local neighbor,

specific stores, that's going to continue to the future.

Wow, thank you this was a lot of information

are really great and very insightful, as well. And they

are talking about constant change. I also feel like we're

listening to you with all the trends, it's like, I feel we are

in this huge change. You know, change has been with us all the

time. But I feel that this time, that change we are currently

undergoing is much more fundamental and much bigger than

maybe it ever has been.

Many industries are experiencing change. You know, I

think retail is probably experiencing probably the most

rapid and radical changes of all, you know, consumer

behaviors, technology, are driving an environment now that

is, you know, online, they're creating heightened expectations

for everyone. I mean, it's such a rapid pace of change in the

retail industry. It's frightening, but it also so

exciting.

Exactly. It's both. But now, Simon, I can't

let you off the hook. Because now we have to talk about the

elephant in the room. Why have you never vacation on a cruise

ship? And what do you think the cruise industry needs to do to

attract non cruisers like yourself, and really change the

perception of cruising?

I knew that question would come at some

point. The elephant in the room, absolutely!

I needed to ask!

You did, you did. I can't avoid that. If you know

me, I'm someone who's hyperactive. I'm someone that

cannot sit still on a holiday. I really can't. I drive everyone

crazy. I always have to be doing something. And I've always put

cruising in that bucket that it's about sitting around

relaxing, you know, sunbathing, eating, etc. And I love eating

don't get me wrong on this point. But I simply love

exploring, being free and outdoors. And I've been on a

couple of ships. While they've been in port. I've always been

blown away by the sheer size and scale but I've never yet taken

that plunge to book a cruise and gone on a proper cruising

experience and my perceptions of cruising since working travel

have changed enormously. But I think there is a stigma,

although I think it is changing there is a stigma attached to

cruising industry has been working really hard at it that

you know, it was just for old people, I'm going to be open and

upfront about it. It was just for old people. But that stigma

has definitely changed again over the last five years. I

mean, I think that will rapidly change. I speak to many friends

and family now you know, some of our young kids and the novel

trying out cruising coming back, you know, we're raising reports

about the same time you got you guys got you've got to try it.

You've got to try it and and i will i am going to try it.

I think hopefully maybe in 2023 It's on the bucket list to try.

I'm super keen now. Like I talked about the airport

environment. I think the cruise environment has just evolved you

know, even over the last five years it's probably developing

hugely Do you think I'm going to enjoy it? Can I ask?

I absolutely think you will enjoy it. Just a

little story on this because you had mentioned that you feel like

you need to do things and then you don't want to sit still. A

few years ago I was cruising with him Hindman lower grade

director because she was helping me on an RFP we were doing and

we were cruising on one of the latest cruise ships and she has

so much energy and I tell you she booked me for three days we

did everything on this trip we did even folding towels to

animals exercise. We went to the cinema we did roller coaster we

did everything and I tell you there was not one single minute

of boredom because we did so many things in three days so I

can promise you if you don't want to sit still on a sun chair

out there is enough for you to do!

Certainly see that and I honestly I don't know in

all reality why I haven't done it I mean many things tick my

boxes on a cruise you know great foods and some great retail you

know numbers and activities and you get you know first of all

once you get to see obviously depends on the cruise and but

you know gets you some great fabulous destinations. You know

in each day you wake up and somewhere new that that is just

sounds ideal to me. So yeah 2023.

I will remind you I will ask you again, at the end

of 2023, which screws you to, but I'm sure you will also tell

me about it when you book it. But what we also have to say,

you know, in fairness because I said, I'm going to grill you

while you have not been on a cruise, there has always been an

interest from your side in the cruise channel. So in June, you

attended the DFNI Cruise conference in Barcelona. And

actually we did a presentation together. So as a cruise return

newbie, or what surprised you most positively?

Yes, I came away from that conference. As you

know, that was a version of that the DFNI cruise conference, that

was my first one I attended. I was so impressed by the level of

innovation and change in the cruise sector. You know, I've

come away from this. And I'm now actively talking about how the

rest of the travel retail channel, you know, airlines and

airports, they really need to look at what the cruise retail

industry is doing and take some take some learning from it and

take some note, the cruise retailers from from what we see,

you know, as a business, and certainly, you know, they really

have, since COVID become far more open to work with new

brands, they've got a greater focus on sustainability and

ethical strategies. And they're more willing to try new brands

and products on board that they understand the consumer dynamics

on each ship, and they tailor the product offerings and their

solvents accordingly. You know, in airport retail in particular,

I often bang on about, you know, we see the same old brands

dominating the stores and airports. I absolutely love what

the cruise retail sector is doing in some regards since

COVID. The innovation levels in what they're offering as the as

the onboard retail experiences is out there in the industry

really is kind of leading the way in some regards in terms of

change and doing things differently. And it for me,

coming away from from that conference, it was so refreshing

to see that.

Thank you. That's great that you say this. But now

as we have talked about the positive impact you saw the

cruise retail industry is having what do you see as the biggest

untapped opportunity for cruise retail?

I'm not as experienced in cruising nowhere

near experience is experienced in the cruising challenge unity.

But in my opinion, there's a couple of areas, I think the as

I've just said, you know that the cruise industry is making

some some great advances, especially compared to some of

the other travel retail channels. However, I understand

there are still some legacy business or commercial models

that exist between cruise ship owners and the cruise retailers.

And I think this needs to change fast. Otherwise, you know, the

cruise retailers won't be able to provide, you know, amazing

retail experiences that are going to start popping up in and

you know, domestic little domestic retail market.

Retailers and brands, you know, margins are eroding globally

fast, you know, the global supply chain in the cost of

living challenge that we're all facing globally, you know, is is

really, really now starting to bite and hurt retailers margins.

And, you know, sadly with some of the old commercial model that

still in use include retail, I think is going to limit some

extent, the range and rec for brands and the experience that

can be offered on board. And it is changing, I do see it

changing, which is fantastic. And you're new and you're seeing

a new approach. And you can see that new approach and some of

the new ships, because in the retail the cruise retailers have

been able to deliver probably retail experiences that have

never been able to be offered before under the old models. But

I still think there are models out there knitting in your

novella know that they do need to change and to enable this to

happen.

You know, this is the good thing. I'll be more on

the neutral side. That's what I like now for being on the

consultancy. advisory side, I think this is the moment where

we, as the more neutral party, we can make comments like this.

And we can really challenge existing models maybe far easier

than the retailer. So cruise liners or vendors can because we

are not directly involved. So thank you for bringing this up.

You're absolutely right Nadine and I mean, you're

spot on, you know, that's one of the aspects I love. And I've

done airport retailing, I've done work for brands running

their businesses and airports. And I absolutely love the jobs

that we do now I think I absolutely you know, we see all

the dynamics, you know, the either the cruise or the airport

side or the airline side, you see it from the brand side, you

see from the operator side and, and we sit there and we get

great visibility and, and I remember if I was back in my

airport days, you do to some extent have you blinkers on you

don't see all those other kind of factors in play. And

likewise, if you're a retailer, you're going you're weighing

your retailer blinkers. And, and I think, you know, we have a

great role to play in this industry. You know, we're

sharing and trying to bring everyone together to improve

this industry. But you're right, my second part was really about

you know, I think the cruise retail is doing some of this but

it's greater and faster investment in their own digital

ecosystems. You know, future consumers and even more even

consumers now you know, they are expecting a higher level of

digitalized pre planning for their shopping consumers will

want to have more than just some visibility of the range and

offer and choice of brands and products available before they

get on that boat. Click and collect is becoming increasingly

an everyday occurrence. And I think cruise retailing has got

to adapt to digital solutions like pre ordering, you know, no

touch options onward delivery to destinations globally, you know

is going to be expected a standard. Many consumers it'll

be more common for their purchases to arrive at their

destinations before they do buying what you want, when you

want it is going to become so easy you know, it's becoming

easier already increasingly easy now, you know, but it's going to

become even easier in the future that I think cruise retailers

are going to need to start thinking of new ways to address

this challenge on board shops are could become more like

showrooms, you know, places to see and touch and feel products

but not necessarily to purchase and take away there you know,

the transaction could place a number of touch points maybe

back in their cabin on the cruise app, maybe after the

cruise is finished, maybe they're sat at home last week

off the ship thinking I really wish I bought that product they

can go back online and buy it and have that delivered to their

home. This has got to happen you know this new you know,

connected way of consuming products I think it's going to

is going to necessitate a change in the business model you know,

sales in the shop will no longer necessarily be the best measure

of a stores performance you know, and maybe the business

model is got to change in this way you know, maybe it's you

know, sales is measured as you know contacts footfall

interactions. I mean, this is where investment for for cruise

ship retailers and cruise ships needs to be made.

Absolutely no thank you for sharing this as

well. Yeah. Simon last question for you before we go to our

rapid fire questions, in your opinion, what can Seatrade do to

support really the cruise retail industry to thrive?

Seatrade is a super impressive organization I think

the development of a retail and commercial channel within their

kind of you know organization is absolutely the right move. The

retail and the F&B and beverage offer you know is an extremely

important component of for cruising market I think it

absolutely needs to be viewed holistically and integrated into

the wider cruise industry and Seatrade Is this the perfect

organization to bring together all you know all the key

decision makers teams and businesses involved and in

cruise together in one place and you know the retail community

within cruising within Seatrade is only going to thrive as being

part of the whole wider you know cruise industries as a whole I

think.

We will definitely take this into

consideration when we are working on building this retail

presence within the Seatrade events and Seatrade

organization. This was amazing. Thank you for all the input!

Well I hope people are still listening!

You're definitely gonna win the prize for the

longest episode but I'm not surprised about this I think

this was for me already clear that when I knew I you agree to

follow my invitation or accept my invitation I know this is

gonna be a long episode but this is great because you always have

great things to say. So ready for the rapid fire questions and

before I ask the questions I also have to say that I had to

modify them of course a little bit because for you as our non

cruiser or I'm going to call you our soon to be cruiser so

therefore the questions for you what is your favorite holiday

destination?

Anywhere I can ski.

Active or lazy vacation?

Oh, it's got to be active.

Buffet, or in room breakfast?

In room.

But this is very lazy.

Yeah, but I prefer a la carte. Not buffet.

Okay. So what was the last product you bought in

travel retail?

Oh, that's last week. I bought some more Hermes

perfume. Very classic.

And where will your first cruise take you?

South America love to cruise around South America

do they do those cruises?

They do, yes but this is very exquisite. And last

question for you which brand currently not in travel retail

should definitely be there?

Loci are the vegan sneaker brand that we work with

Loci I mean such a fabulous brand. And the story about them

is absolutely fabulous. You know every pair of sneakers that they

produce is taken, you know 20 bottles of plastic out of the

ocean. Every component of this product has been fully

sustainably made and the whole ethos around this brand is just

amazing. So my answer there is Loci definitely.

Okay, perfect. Thank you. We did it. Yay. Thank

you so much for being on the show. Simon. Thank you. Thank

you for having me. And thank you for Seatrade as well. Right,

back to work now Nadine, no more slacking on the podcast.