Essential communication skills for psychologists and therapists with Jase Taylor

Today I’m here with Jase Taylor from Oxford Communication Skills. Jase is a communication skills expert and is also married to a Clinical psychologist so he has a lot of insight into what we do and has some really useful insights to help us amplify our messages around mental health. 

The highlights

• Jase tells us the interesting story behind his career, and how he became a communication skills expert 00:48 
• Jase talks about how we can train ourselves to be better communicators 10:51
• Jase defines for us what he means by communication skills 13:06
• Jase talks about when it is most important to get our communication right 16:38
• We discuss being authentic, and how it has to be your message to be comfortable  18:19
• Jase tells us what communication strengths he sees in mental health professionals 31:51
• We talk about bringing out individual style and strengths, and the importance of this for diversity and inclusivity  36:04
• Jase tells us what tips he would give if I was invited to do a TED talk tomorrow 42:21
• Jase tells us how people can find him if they want to work with him 46:17

Links to find Jase

https://www.oxfordcommunicationskills.com

jase@oxfordcommunicationskills.com

Twitter & Instagram: @oxcommskills

https://www.instagram.com/oxcommskills/

https://twitter.com/OxCommSkills

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TRANSCRIPT

SPEAKERS

Rosie Gilderthorp, Jase Taylor

Rosie Gilderthorp  00:01

Welcome to the Business of Psychology podcast, the show that helps you to reach more people, help more people and build the life you want to live by doing more than therapy. Today, I'm here with Jase Taylor from Oxford Communication Skills. Jase is a communication skills expert, and is also married to a clinical psychologist. So he's got a lot of insight into what we do and has some really useful ideas to help us amplify our messages around mental health. So welcome to the podcast, Jase. Before we get started, I know that you've got quite an interesting story behind your career. So could you tell us a little bit about how and why you became a communications expert?

Jase Taylor  00:48

It's a slightly convoluted route. To be honest, I started off training as an engineer, software and algorithms engineer, all the way through A Levels, University and into a full time job. And communications was sort of part of that in the way that it's part of a lot of jobs that people generally do, you have to deal with clients and colleagues and meetings and things. But in general, it wasn't a front and centre aspect of it. But it was following a house move relocation, I found myself looking for kind of interesting evening activities. And I found a local branch of an international competition called Fame Lab, which has a bit of a cringe title, but it's about science communication, and and scientists, researchers, academics, communicating, communicating their science to the public. So I so went along and just sat in the audience, and there were a dozen or so sort of PhD students or whatever, communicating their, their bit of research with with passion and excitement, and it was great, I loved it. And it's an annual competition, I thought, well, maybe, maybe I can have a go, it doesn't, doesn't look too difficult. You know, it's quite cheerful, positive, supportive audience. That sounds fun. So the following year, I applied and got through the first round, and then the second round, and, and I found myself in the grand final on a on a stage at a theatre in London, and came away as a runner up, and it was on the train home, really, with with my wife with sort of certificate in hand, and she just asked me quite bluntly, you're quite good at this, is that a chance for you to do this, do more of this in your in your current job? Or if you get promotion? I thought for a moment, and the answer really was just no. And so the question then became well is it may be time to look for something that, that does let you do more of this. So that was, that moment was the catalyst really. And then within 10, or 11 days of that moment, I was on the phone, receiving a job offer to take up teaching at a secondary school, having so applied and whirlwind interview and all this stuff. And that kicked me off into teaching. And then I realised that teaching was just kind of a really lovely connection to this communication, I thought, well, maybe I could teach others how to communicate so that they can enjoy it as much as I do. And so that's what I've been doing. I started off tutoring and mentoring subsequent rounds of competitors in Fame Lab here in the local heats and then getting involved with kind of national competitors to and it grew from there, dealing with people going off, and then it's a springboard for people who want to go off and do some YouTube channels or TEDx talks, things like that.

Rosie Gilderthorp  03:28

That is so cool. Who knew there was a Fame Lab.

Jase Taylor  03:32

I know, I know. It's not really like anything that you kind of come across in other aspects. There's no, well as far as I'm aware, there's no awards for communicating about, I don't know, pick a subject. But, but here it is, science of communication. And I mean, let's be honest, the last year, the last 18 months have shown if anything, the massive importance of being able to communicate accurate science well, to everybody, without misleading them, or confusing or overwhelming them. It's, it's so important, and lots of, I'm not detracting from people who do this, lots of people are very good at this, but it's something that everybody can improve on, and it's something that lots of people would really benefit from having more, more coaching on, of course. 

Rosie Gilderthorp  04:21

Oh, it's so true. I think my brain was turning over on this subject the other night, actually, because it struck me that there's a huge difference in public perception at the moment, because we are recording this still in the middle of the pandemic. I feel like I've been saying that on this podcast for too long now.

Jase Taylor  04:38

You've noticed that the people have stopped saying it's unprecedented because we've done we've got 18 months of precedent now.

Rosie Gilderthorp  04:46

Yeah, this thing we're all very used to, but he's a bit rubbish. And, and it yeah, it was really striking me that one of the government's scientific advisors was not communicating the advice very well. And I was saying to my husband, like, oh my god, he needs to say this, he needs to say that. Because you know, knowing a little bit about behavioural science, and what gets a message through to people, I was like you've just confused the entire nation on a fairly simple point, really. However, contrasting that with some of the other advisors who are much better communicators, and it just felt like a Russian Roulette really, of who gets pulled out, and depends really what the public is going to be able to take away from it. So I completely agree with you, I think it could not be more important than it is right now. And in mental health, it's, it's just make or break for our clients, really, if you don't understand the evidence base behind what you're being presented with, you know, whether that's CBT, or a medication that a psychiatrist might be recommending, if you don't understand it, that's not informed consent. It's not ethical to do something that that the person on the other end of it doesn't understand. And I think it happens far, far too often.

Jase Taylor  06:08

Yeah. And likewise, if you're involved in some research, and you've got some fantastic new thing that's tangibly going to help people, you need to be able to share it with your colleagues in a way that they're going to get on board with, they're going to understand the limitations but the power of it in an, in an accurate way, as you say, it's informed consent, it then trickles down.

Rosie Gilderthorp  06:25

Yeah, absolutely. So I feel like I'm jumping into kind of how you can help us as a profession. But actually, before we get on to that, I wanted to know a little bit more about you, and kind of, you made it sound really linear and like it was always gonna happen this way for you, but actually, what got you into that Fame Lab, like some something must've hooked you, where you always secretly longing to do public speaking? 

Jase Taylor  06:55

You know what, and I sort of don't want to say this, because I really want to emphasise the fact that anybody can, can not just do this, but enjoy it. But I have to be honest, I suspect if, if I look back, there is a common thread, perhaps, albeit a very narrow one at stages, running through all the way back, you know, about a primary school kid who loved drama, right. And that was my main thing, but then, then became a teenager and that was all too embarrassing and stuff like that. But I was lucky enough to go to a school where we had a little tiny bit of this, we had a sort of poetry, learning and recycle competition in between out of our houses. And I went in mainly because I had a good memory for that kind of stuff. I was good at learning stuff. That's what made me good at school, the speech and communication cycle is just kind of the context. But anyway, I did it, enjoyed it, because I did quite well, because I could remember it properly. And it just kind of, I guess planted the seeds. And then when I got to university, there was an exposition class, which was about, I did engineering, so it was about how do you communicate with clients or whatever. And it was just a terms cost the beginning of first year, but I loved it, it was great. And I suppose it just kind of very, very gradually snowballed. And when I got to my first full time job, I sort of found myself moving more towards client facing type jobs. Requirements capture, what do you need from this, this product or this report and delivering results. And that was, so I always knew I sort of enjoyed that person to person stuff in the bits of my life when I wasn't busy being awkward or, or whatever. But I never really, in the same way that you mentioned that you wouldn't imagine a thing like Fame Lab if you hadn't heard about it, I don't think I imagined a job doing just that. Not, not one that wasn't being an actor, for example. So yeah, I, it kind of fed all the way through. And then I suppose again, it was another accidental connection. As I say, I was just looking for interesting evening activities to do in Oxford near where I live and found this the Fame Lab thing, oh that's to do with science, I'll go along. And again, the communications was just happy accident. But it just, just kind of connected to it again. And then as I say, after this conversation on the train, realise that perhaps teaching was was a good shout. That's actually just how good a shout it really is. They essentially, they pay me and they give me a captive audience, it's great. And obviously, there's more to it than that. And my students are really great. But yeah, it perhaps it has been just that underlying theme all the way through.

Rosie Gilderthorp  09:30

Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it when you look back, and you can kind of see that even at the time when you feel like you're jumping all over the place. And I know there was definitely a period in my life where I felt like, why am I jumping from this career into this one and what is going on here? And it's only now things have settled a little bit that I can kind of look back and be like, well, this interest or like this skill set kind of does flow all the way through because now I started out, studying English and being really into drama, and you know, took a bit of a strange route to where I'm at. And yeah, it's, it's interesting for you kind of that communication aspect of it was always there it might have just been hiding or coming out in different ways in different roles. So do you think then that people who might be listening to this who maybe they really don't have that, maybe the idea of communicating, particularly the public speaking side, is something that has always made them feel really sick? You know, they might be kind of getting some palpitations now just thinking about it? Can those of us who feel that way, train ourselves to be better communicators? Or is it more something that you're kind of born with?

Jase Taylor  10:51

You can, you definitely can. That is my firm thesis. I totally understand that, that sense of reluctance and nervousness about it. And in spite of what I've said, I said it rather flippantly, I remember times in my life where I would not at all have been confident and comfortable, saying yes, I enjoy communicating, I'm a good communicator, so I remember it firsthand, as well. But yes, you can, you can learn the skills. And you know, I see this at school, I see students who, and I teach maths and computer science, and maths is definitely one of those things where people say, oh, I hated math, I'm never good at it. And, and somewhere in there is that similar nugget of discomfort, and it sort of feeds back on itself, it's, you know, I'm not very confident at it, I don't really enjoy it, so I don't, I don't put myself in situations where, or find myself in situations where I can really succeed in a big way. And that never gives me the positive omph to have another go. And so part of the craft of teaching is, is encouraging that as much as we can. So, yes, you can learn it, but just as with teaching, it's helpful to have someone who, who kind of knows the ropes, who, you know, it's fine, I know how to solve this equation, I'm going to explain it to you. And that's where people like me, again, another job, I didn't realise existed, but I can, I can sort of see what where your nervousness lies and where your strengths are, even if you don't have a sense of them yourself, and help you kind of bring them out, and in that way, you you earn your own confidence. It's not like I'm kind of sticking it on you like a label, you it might take a bit longer, but you earn your own. And that I think really works.

Rosie Gilderthorp  12:29

And I'm sure, your wife Rebecca says this all the time, that that is so similar to what we do in therapy for people, because you often meet people who don't think there's any hope for them. And they think, you know, I'm a broken person, I'm a terrible person, there's nothing in me, and you just help them see their own strengths. And yeah, it sounds like a really similar and powerful process, I imagine quite a fulfilling way of working.

Jase Taylor  12:54

Absolutely. It's funny, you know, you're right, we have had those conversations. But, but I'm struck again, by that comparison you've just made, it it is there's a lot of a lot of similarity and parallels there. That's true.

Rosie Gilderthorp  13:06

So, I mean, we've been talking about it a little bit already. But can you kind of define for us what you really mean by communication skills?

Jase Taylor  13:16

It's such a broad church as well, because there are those for whom it means giving a PowerPoint presentation. And within that there are lots of people for whom it means the PowerPoint itself, you know, have I got the right details, right? Diagrams, too much information, too little information. There are others for whom it means standing in front of a lectern at an academic conference, or an industry exhibition. There are others for whom it just means that conversation in a in a therapy session over zoom or in an office, there are those who mean something to do with public performance. So it's it's broad. Now, there are lots of similar themes across all of them, but perhaps they they get manifested in different ways, depending on context. So I mean, perhaps you're better placed than I am to, to assume what it means for your audience. What is so, what do you feel it would mean to to some notional members of your audience?

Rosie Gilderthorp  14:12

Well, I was thinking about this before we came on, actually, and I think there's a few different spheres that seem to require different skills of us. So there's the one on one communication, which, you know, it could be within a therapy session with a client's needing to, as we were discussing before, explain stuff, like the rationale for an intervention, or I've got clients who want to know quite a lot about the evidence base, but they might not have a scientific background, so sort of distilling that information for one individual. But there's also kind of team meetings, you know, whether that's, in my practice I've got a small team of people who work with me, but I suppose I employ them, so I'm in kind of a position of power in those meetings, but I I also remember from my NHS work, being in huge MDTs, with much more confusing hierarchies and needing to communicate in a totally different way there. And then, of course, a lot of us do do some some kind of teaching or public speaking, where we need that more behind the lectern trying to engage a wider group of people. So, yeah, I can think of lots of different contexts, and they all seem to require slightly different skills.

Jase...