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As a managing partner at MRA Global Sourcing and a thought leader in supply chain staff sourcing, Naseem Malik has his finger on the pulse of the automotive supply chain industry — and lots of other industries. 

With all the other major challenges facing supply chains in the pandemic era, none has caused as big of a culture shift as the move to remote work. 

According to Naseem, top pre-pandemic questions from talent shifted from What’s the comp? Who will I be working for? to What's the work arrangement? Is this hybrid? Companies that demanded full-time on-site work were not popular with talented candidates.

“And those companies that continue to say, no, we don't care, this is what we want — they struggled,” said Naseem. “They struggled to find people. Not just [find] people, but they're struggling to retain their people.”

In order to keep up with the rapidly changing world of work, automotive supply chain companies need to change their culture and allow more flexibility. A cookie-cutter approach won’t cut it anymore. 

They might look to previous podcast guest Katherine Knight, Mitsubishi’s chief legal officer and chief HR officer, who led the charge to “work from home forever.” In this episode of the Automotive Leaders podcast, Naseem joins Jan to deconstruct that conversation with Katherine, and discuss major changes in work culture across multiple industries including the automotive industry.

Themes discussed on this episode: 

• Cross-industry trends in remote versus on-site work models
• What remote work means for new Gen Z employees
• Why traditional performance reviews are being scrapped across industries
• How being unapologetically yourself makes you a better leader

Featured Guest: Naseem Malik

What he does: Naseem is a managing partner at MRA Global Sourcing and a true thought leader when it comes to sourcing executive supply chain staff. Get Naseem’s informative newsletter.

On leadership: “Just be your raw self. Find your voice and don't be afraid to share it. We talked about this a lot — you are your own brand. You've got to build your own brand. So if you are not honest with yourself and the way you act, feel, everything, it'll be reflected. It'll stunt your growth, it will stunt your development. And it may create an impression about you which is not reality.”

Episode Highlights

Timestamped inflection points from the show

[2:36] Meet the guest: Naseem and Jan discuss how they met, as well as Naseem’s unique cross-industry expertise.

[5:07] At the forefront: Katherine Knight’s statement, “work from home forever,” was a bold one. Mitsubishi is leading the charge for remote work in the automotive industry. But operationalizing it can be tricky.  

[8:00] Flipping the switch: How do companies across sectors decide whether to mandate in-office work or go remote? Naseem gives a sampling of trends across industries.

[11:38] The Gen Z challenge: For many younger workers, remote work is attractive. But some Gen Zers are beginning to recognize the benefits of being an office and learning from more experienced colleagues. 

[13:40] Cookie cutter won’t cut it: Naseem discusses the importance of work flexibility, and how it is beginning to play a larger role in supply chain industry hiring and retention. 

[19:35] The hybrid work choice paradox: Will GM’s decision to mandate three days of on-site work per week hurt or help them? 

[23:12] Define your own culture: The auto supply chain industry often feels pressure to follow tech companies’ leads. How is that trend playing out when it comes to on- versus off-site work?

[26:54] The highlights: Naseem talks about what stood out about Jan’s interview with Katherine Knight, including her unique approach to performance reviews. 

[31:58] Toward a new performance review: Naseem and Jan discuss what makes Katherine’s view on performance reviews unique, as well as performance review trends across industries.

[35:41] A leader for the future: As a lawyer, Katherine is the last person one might expect to have progressive views on work from home. But it’s part of what makes her an effective leader in her industry. 

[42:40] Break out of the mold: Jan and Naseem discuss breaking out of the corporate mold and being unapologetically yourself. 

[45:21] Advice for auto industry leaders: To become a strong leader, embrace your authentic self by building your personal brand around who you truly are.

Top quotes

[8:39] Naseem: “There's some leaders that were dead set against ever hiring anybody remote pre-pandemic. And these are leaders that were 30, 35 years into their careers, that would never entertain that because either they're in a good spot — meaning geographically. they don't need to do that — or they just didn't believe it could work. And to see them do a complete 180 and now hire successfully remote was an eye opener.”

[14:43] Jan: “Inclusive is a word that gets a lot of airtime these days, but we have to be more understanding that — guess what? Humans are different, and our needs change at different times of our lives.” 

[22:47] Naseem: “I think over the past six months of this year, office vacancy has declined, meaning occupancy has gone up by several percentage points compared to this time last year. So that shows you another trend of how companies are now beginning to say, all right, slowly but surely, it's time to start coming back.”

[30:55] Naseem: “After a play is done, a coach should give a player feedback right then and there. A coach is not going to wait after the season is over and then come back to that specific play and provide feedback because that completely defeats the purpose. So thinking about it as a player-coach relationship — it’s constant feedback. After every play, give that feedback.”

[40:15] Jan: “Of course, there's a level of professionalism, but it's okay to be you. And to let your authentic self come through. In fact, that will do more for you and bonding your team to you as a leader than it will try to fit a corporate stuffy mold.”

[Transcript]

Welcome to the automotive leaders podcast, where we help you prepare for the future by sharing stories, insights and skills from leading voices in the automotive world with a mission to transform this industry together. I'm your host, Jan Griffiths, that passionate, rebellious farmer's daughter from Wales, with over 35 years of experience in our beloved auto industry, and a commitment to empowering fellow leaders to be their best authentic selves. Stay true to yourself, be you and lead with Gravatars the hallmark of authentic leadership. Let's dive in.

It's time to deconstruct the episode with Katherine Knight, the Katherine night episode. Whoo, that got into a lot of sensitive issues, didn't it? I know that many of you out there are struggling with this work from home. How many days? Should we be in the office? How many days should we be at home? What should that policy look like? And she certainly covered that in a lot of detail. And she also talked about performance reviews. And she is going into a far more innovative place with performance reviews than most traditional automotive companies, I can assure you of that. So to join me to deconstruct the Katherine Knight interview, I have asked Naseem Malik to join me at the microphone. And Naseem is the managing partner at MRA global. And he is a true thought leader in the space of executive search for supply chain. He's got his finger on the pulse across multiple different industries. And that's why I wanted to bring him to the show, because he can speak to automotive and manufacturing. He knows it. But he can also speak to what other companies are doing out there. And so often we we live in our little silo industry, and we don't look at what other industries are doing. So please join me and welcoming Naseem Malik to the show the same welcome.

Thank you for having me, Jan. Appreciate it.

This is our second deconstruction episode, and we are going to deconstruct the previous episode with Katherine Knight. And again to clarify that is not the Australian murderer Oh, no, no, no, no. Katherine Knightt is indeed the chief HR officer. She is head of legal and the Chief Compliance Officer for Mitsubishi Motors North America. And she is out there, she is leading the charge in the automotive industry. So before we dive into all the meaty stuff that I know, we want to tear apart for the audience, let's explain who you are Naseem and how we know each other. Do you remember when we met?

Yes, I do actually, and have often told the story you are that my first executive female at the VP procurement level that we placed since we started our company. So you're always be very special.

Naseem Malik is an executive search specialist. Now what I love about Naseem is of course, not only did he placed me in the senior level procurement role and put me in the C suite for the first time. I trust his opinions, his perspectives. And he is focused primarily in the supply chain space. But here's the thing, across multiple industries, so he knows automotive but he also is able to address the subject of work from home and all the things that we're going to tear into from the Katherine night episode. He sees it from not only the perspective of somebody in executive search, but across multiple industries. And that's one of the reasons, Naseem that I wanted you on the show.

It is a highly relevant and very timely topic. It stays it continues to stay that over the past two years, and it's continuing to change. So I'm looking forward to getting into it.

Well, let's do it. Let's dive right in work from home forever. The headline said automotive news May 2022. One of the reasons I wanted Katherine Knight on this show is to say all right, six months later, what's happening you're still doing it. And yes, she is and for those of you who have listened to the full episode, you'll you'll understand why. So Naseem, share with the audience. Please tell us. What are you seeing from other industries? In my mind, Katherine Knight is clearly leading the charge in automotive, but what are you seeing in other industries?

Yes, she is definitely leading the charge. So I would be remiss If I didn't mention how fantastic that interview was very informative, very insightful, and just very fun to listen to. And she definitely is especially and her company Mitsubishi at the forefront when they talk about work from home forever. Because even within the industry, right, there's been some back and forth, whether it's automotive or manufacturing, about, hey, we need to have X number of days on safe, the new normal now is the hybrid. So there is no new normal, it's changing normal. And for now, it is a hybrid schedule of three days on site. You have to be there three days, you can pick which days you want some companies or some companies said no, we're going to tell you which three days you will be on site, right? But then you get into this whole other issue of how do you manage that? How do you get the right people in at the right time. So you can have those meetings, those creativity, bursts that you need to help culture as well to all these things. But going back to the automotive sector, her points were spot on, right that this is something that if you can figure out a way, how to make this happen, without affecting productivity, without affecting culture, and leading from the C suite down and showing how it can be done, it can be rewarding, and yes, it can be done. Now, what makes Mitsubishi unique I think here and why it was such a treat to listen to her describe this is a lot of the companies that we've seen that have been successful in this realm are the ones that were digital natives, pre pandemic. And what we mean by that is a lot of the tech companies, right, a lot of companies that were, let's say, much more globally distributed. And working in that remote environment. For them, it was an easier lift, to make this more of a permanent thing versus those companies that are considered to be a little bit more archaic or a little bit more stodgy when it comes to how they're set up how they operate. So it was it was refreshing to hear that, hey, there is a way that this can be done. And this is how you do it.

What is it? Do you think that's in the mind of the leader in as you say, the more archaic kind of company to companies that have been around a long time, not so much in the tech space manufacturing company? So maybe they may not be automotive? But what is it what goes on in the head of that leader that says, I gotta pick something? It's got to be some number of days? What's driving that? You think?

That's a great question. And if nothing else, that is just a fascinating study into just psyche, preferences, idiosyncrasies, whatever the case may be on how some leaders, and I'll give you an example, there's some leaders that were dead set against ever hiring anybody remote pre pandemic. And these are leaders that were 30-35 years into their careers that would never entertain that because either they're in a good spot, meaning geographically, they don't need to do that, or they just didn't believe it could work. And to see them do a complete 180. And now hire successfully remote was an eye opener. And then on the other side, you have industries where, let's say, within manufacturing, a dominant theme we've seen is the private equity world, within manufacturing, zero discussion there, you have to be on site. And some of it makes sense. If you're in an operational role in a manufacturing world, you've got to be there, you've got to spend time there. But even for some of the other roles, across, you know, the operations functions or engineering and supply chain, they've been adamant that you have to be there, every single day, you have to be on site, and you even after relocate. So this is mostly 2021 and first half of 2022, where the rates weren't that high, and relocation was still on the table, far less now. And then the third element we've seen over the past few months now as the pendulum continues to swing between companies and candidates, and just overall the market, which continues to stay tight, the labor market is on the financial services side. And this has been an interesting one financial services side in a lot of the major metropolitan cities. So it could be financial services, not just fintech. But insurance companies and others like that. They have now also changed or tune in, we've got several instances we're seeing of companies saying you have to be on site. Now, there are some that are saying, if you look at the hedge funds of the world, they're they're still very much five days. You have to be in the office every single day, and they compensate you accordingly. But then some of the others FinTech insurance, those folks are now saying at least three days. So the challenge then becomes this over the past two years. When you look at some of the younger millennials and the Gen Z's out there, especially on that generation to say, for us, it makes no sense. So we've been productive. Businesses didn't go fall off a cliff. America was still productive. When we were majority of us were working remotely. So why are you now saying we have to be on site? The folks that are mandating this, they're not all like me Gen Xers or even the boomer generation, you've got some of the some of the older millennials and some of the younger Gen Gen Xers saying the same thing. So it is really fascinating to see this whole spectrum across the board of, you know what the preferences are and how they're trying to drive their company's culture.

I've heard two things coming back from Gen Z, you know, there's a school of thought that, hey, we're Gen Z, we know how to handle the tech, we can work from anywhere, right? But then I'm also hearing that Gen Z, hey, we're new in our careers, we want to be in the office, we want to know how this stuff works. You're right at the forefront of recruiting. So what what are you seeing as companies try to reach out to Gen Z?

You're absolutely right. And they are very much those two schools here. And even within Gen Z is now the ones that had worked a year or two, prior to the pandemic, versus those that started their careers in the pandemic, big difference. And here's what I mean, the ones that had started before the pandemic, even if it was a year, year to two years, they saw some of those benefits of FaceTime meaning building those relationships, developing that rapport with fellow peers, understanding the company's DNA a little bit better, but they're able to at least get started on that. Now, those Gen Z's that started in 2020 Till now, and have not had to go into offices for them. It's a different ballgame. And yes, those are the ones Jan that are saying, we actually miss that camaraderie. We miss, we don't know what you're talking about when you say, Oh, this creative benefit of being together of being able to problem solve together to be able to build that trust and that confidence and like it or not, there is still the element of FaceTime and helping your career when it comes times for assignments or promotions or, or situations like that. So they are feeling some of that and saying, Hey, we do miss that right? Or even at a social level, whether it's going for happy hours or team building events. So how do you make up for that the virtual digital world has accelerated tremendously, there's no doubt. But there's still that longing for that human interaction.

Yeah. And I know from my experience, I love the flexibility of working from home. But I will always choose face to face every time because but that's just who I am, right? That's my personality. That's how I like to interact with people I like to engage in the room, I like to read all the body language, it's just me. But you know, not everybody thinks that way. And one thing I've noticed is a huge switch. And that is this idea of a cookie cutter approach. And a policy for everyone isn't going to cut it anymore. Go back in automotive decades ago, it was well, this is the policy, you'll be in the office from 7:30 in the morning to 4:30. That's a policy and then you get so many days off and so much vacation, and we treat everybody the same. And that was the way that we thought we were supposed to operate. But now I think we need to be more accepting and more Inclusive. Inclusive is a word that gets a lot of airtime these days. But we have to be more understanding, and guess what? Humans are different. And our needs change at different times of our lives. I see that as a as a fundamental switch in the way in which we approach culture and the HR function.

Yeah, absolutely. And that is something which is far from settled, as we are now. If you look at the overall market, right, the market is still strong, you still have almost a million more openings. And you do have a number of people that are either applying or that are in the labor force. So when those dynamics stay that way, it is still the onus is going to be on companies to be able to find, attract, retain those types of talented individuals. So I can tell you, Jan, that for the past 18 months, almost 24 months now, minus the last I would say quarter, that was one of the top two questions, maybe three that a candidate with asked us, it wasn't so much, you know, once they know the company wasn't oh, what's the comp? Who am I going to work for is what's the work arrangement? Is this on site? Is this hybrid? So if it was an on site, it was a very short conversation for majority of those candidates. And those companies that continue to say no, we want you know, we don't care, this is what we want. They struggled. They struggled to find people, not just people but they struggle to retain their people. Because the inherent advantage that you had of let's say, there was an e-commerce in the middle of the country that is doing great and almost a billion dollar company now they insisted that there are hundreds of people have to be in this small town over the past several years. Now, after the pandemic because people moved all over the country. There was a lot of other people that have moved into that town, people that worked at other companies like Amazon, Facebook, Google, right? Netflix, they're now also living in those areas. What do you do now? Now your people can go work for those companies because they're living amongst them. So that really opened up my eyes to say, Hey, you can't continue to say that we will only hire in this town, meaning you have to relocate, all bets are off now. Because now it's you've got to find the people where you can and figure out a way how to make that work for those companies that were doing that. Now, another key element to this was a compensation. Companies experimented saying, Well, if you're gonna go live there, then we're going to pay you wages that are in line with where you're living geographically. That didn't go very well either. Because, again, your competitors can hire those great people and pay them what they're paying, you're gonna lose out from that way.

There's still a war for talent out there. Is it still real?

It is, it is. Now some of its been obscured with a lot of the noise we're seeing over the past couple of weeks coming from these tech companies, these tech companies grew at a unbelievable clip, during the pandemic. And because of that, they hired and now they're all coming out and saying, Sorry, we over hired, you've seen meta announced that 13% Cut, right? Over 11,000 People that are basically laying off, you've had other tech companies saying if they're not laying off, they're freezing hiring. So that gets a lot of airtime. But it doesn't take away from the fact that overall, the fundamentals when it comes to menu, if you look at the isn manufacturing sector or the services sector, it's still it's expanding, but at a diminishing rate. So now demand has begin to soften just a little bit, which means that yeah, there's now going to be a little bit more pressure being released when it comes to deliveries and inventory and being able to get your products. But companies still say that the fire to higher ratio, right, is still in positive terrain when it comes to hiring more so than firing. So yeah, there's still a lot of openings there. And there's a lot of factors. People didn't come back into the job force people retired, people took the gig jobs because the gig economy grew, or people just want to be independent contractors, right. So all of those is still creating a pressure in the market. But yeah, right now, there's a little bit of bloodletting going on with the bigger tech companies. And once that's settled, it will, we expect that it'll harmonize a little bit.

Let's talk about General Motors for a moment, because we saw Mitsubishi came out with that announcement, and General Motors very much all about work appropriately. So wherever you and your manager deem that to be the right place that works. And then General Motors came out and said, No, no, sorry. And they always say this, these companies that want people back in the office, right, oh, we want teamwork and collaboration, which I don't I don't disagree with. But it's when you mandate, people want choice. And it's when you mandate three days a week, that's when it gets to be like, I don't, I don't want this. So what's your take, GMm saying, January, you're back in the office three days a week? Is that gonna hurt them?

I think is relative, right, it's probably going to hurt them less than it probably hurts, I would say other companies that don't have that kind of poll that GM does, right. And a lot of it depends on from a geographical area as well, too. So if you're in Michigan, right, so these are a lot of the white collared staff roles there. I think it's becoming a little bit more of a norm that people are expecting that, hey, you do have to come into the office, and three days is becoming more and more acceptable for lack of a better term. So that isn't as undesirable as it was, let's say early first quarter, two quarters of 2021. Right. It's something that is becoming Okay, yeah, we have to do this, right. So if you look at what GM is doing, compare that with what Tesla does, right? Tesla says, You have to be there every day. Not just that, but the inimitable owner of Tesla, who now owns Twitter, what Elon Musk just announced for Twitter two days ago, he said, every Twitter employee has to be on site 40 hours a week. I don't care how many days it takes you to get 40 hours, but you have to spend 40 hours a week in the office or you won't have a job. So what he's doing a Tesla is now doing a Twitter. So that's probably more of an outlier. But even move over to Apple right? Apple said, Yep, we need three days on site. And even though they had a petition, I think over 1000 employees signed a petition saying why? Why do we have to come on site three days we want to continue this, but Apple stuck to their guns and said Nope, we're keeping the Same with Google. Google, you know, brought back a lot of folks as well. And they're saying, yeah, we'll do a case by case basis. But even they're saying, and now with, with the impending layoffs with the challenges that they have with their overstaffing. Guess who has the leverage now? The other interesting thing that tracks what's happening with these on site versus off site is Office, the vacancy Gen. So this is another interesting statistic to keep on the radar. So I think over the past six months of this year, office vacancy has declined, meaning occupancy has gone up by several percentage points compared to this time last year. So that shows you another trend of how companies are now beginning to say, all right, slowly, but surely, it's time to start coming back.

Yeah, there's no right or wrong answer to this, I believe. And I'll go back to a comment that Dr. Andy Palmer made when we had this conversation about the California EV tech culture, versus the traditional automotive Detroit culture, right. And I feel like the Detroit culture, we want more of that California tech culture. And he put me straight on this. He says, You know what, it's not about that. It's about as a leader of a company saying, This is my culture. And it may have elements of the traditional manufacturing culture to it. And it may have elements of a California tech culture, there is no sort of cookie cutter, or either end of the spectrum, there is what you decided to be. And that's what leadership is. And I think sometimes we forget that we think that we got to be you know, all one way or another and you don't as a leader, you get to define the culture, and nobody else.

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That's exactly right. And there are, as you were saying that, and instance comes to mind. So there's a client we were working with this year startup, so stealth tech company, that continues to grow rapidly, because a lot of their work is going to be a mix of US and overseas. And as they build out their team, Jan as they hired their chief supply chain officer and then built out all of his team from top tech companies and other industries. They were a 100%. It was a non negotiable, it is completely remote. And they've hired people all over the country. And some of them are backgrounds when it comes to the Tesla's of the world, Robin Hood, Amazon, Google, you know, these these top tier tech companies, and they've got people from west coast, midwest to the East Coast. And there's no question that as it built up to hundreds of people that this is how they're going to run their company. And overall, as they built their company, there have been people that have said, well, you have an office in California, you have an office in Seattle, can we come there? Can you build one you're like, well, those offices are for engineers. Sometimes the engineers want to get together and they want to brainstorm, and they want to do things that they feel are better in person. So yeah, we'll give you an office. But you don't have to come to the office. We're not mandating it. And if there are some people that say, well, we want to move there, or we want to be in a place where there's an office, otherwise, we're not as productive, then sorry, you're not going to work here. So that was been very interesting. See, so we've had extremes. We've worked with that extreme where they have to be remote. And then we've seen the other side, as I mentioned, the private equity. But then we've worked with other traditional fortune 500 companies, executives, either in transportation logistics or in the med device world or in discrete manufacturing, that would never have entertained as an hour now, to the point where their office is less than an hour away and two years. This one chief procurement officer hasn't gone back to the office. No need to, right? They've got a team locally, all remote. They've hired people, different parts of the country. They prefer to keep it within their timezone or one adjacent timezone. But they're completely comfortable doing this. And so why should we go in? And this is somebody that used to go into the office for over 35 years. So that's pretty amazing to see as well.

Well, we'll be keeping a very close eye on the automotive industry and we'll see where things and up. But certainly it's great to see people like Katherine Knight leading the charge and not afraid to make the statement. Yes, of course the decision was made as part of the leadership team at Mitsubishi in North America. You can tell she owns it right? She's that this is what we believe in. And they believe in it to the core of their being, that that's what's going to happen. So as you listen to the entire interview with Katherine, obviously, the work from home was just one element. What was it Naseem that really hit home with you in terms of her overall leadership? Because you, you deal with C suite leaders every day? But what is it about Katherine that stood out in your mind?

She was compelling in a lot of different ways, not just how leading from the front, right how she talked about a just because we're saying, Okay, you can work remote, our leaders are not coming up to the office and giving a different message. And that's something that actually resonated with me, because we do see a lot of that, right. A lot of these leaders say, and they're fine with it, right? They're like, yeah, you can work remote, but we're gonna come to the office, whether they feel they're paid too much to not come to the office, or whether the culture at their companies say one thing and do another. So for her to say, No, you know, we walked the talk, that was an important thing. So that was really good. And then the other thing, obviously, every every other leader can relate to, she's like, I just have too many things I'd like to do at the same time, so to be able to narrow that down. And then she talked about honing in on the performance reviews piece. And that also showed it progressive mindset in terms of how to truly take this head on, right? How this has, more or less continued to be the bane of a lot of people's existence is semiannual slash annual ritual everybody has to go through, that hasn't been appended yet, it hasn't really been updated, either, is something that companies struggle with. So for her to describe what they're doing about it is, is a great way to look at it. You know, it reminded me what she was saying about how, you know, it should not be a surprise. And it should not be that you're holding people accountable for things which they had no contro, right? So we can revise the KPIs, we can look at the metrics and see that, okay, if there's certain things here, that they did really well, but certain things that in a different area, well, we're not going to penalize them wholesale, we can still find ways to give people credit, I found that to be an excellent way of looking at it. And then in terms of the feedback that it shouldn't be done. From a scarce perspective, oh, yeah, you'll get feedback once a year or twice a year, maybe even once a quarter is not enough. So another thing that you mentioned, that reminded me of something that I just read in it, this is an interview in the Financial Times from a person that had just launched a startup, he's ex-Microsoft, ex-Netflix, and he mentioned that I will not have performance reviews in my company, because I don't like takes substantial time, and energy and resources away. And the return on it is suspicious, right? So why would I Why would I invest this, especially where I am now. But the way he put it? It reminded me of the way Katherine was talking about he's like, look, it's all about feedback. It's about how often are we giving feedback, the type of feedback that we're giving. So he's like, it's analogous to, from an athletic perspective is after a player has done, a coach should give a player feedback, right then in there, a coach is not going to wait after the season is over, and then come back to that specific play, and provide feedback because that completely defeats the purpose. So it's thinking about it as a player coach relationship is constant feedback is, after every play, give that feedback. And there's been other reports and studies to show that for your engagement, and motivation, morale of your team members goes up, if they had got if they have received feedback is less than even a week. Right. So if you have given feedback to your team members in the past week, you will see that correspond to an uptake on their engagement in subsequent weeks. So I think that was a that was a powerful way to see the value here on how to do this the right way.

Yeah, I agree with you. And I think back on my career, you know, I hate performance reviews. Really. I hate prepping forum. I hate being on the receiving end of a movie hates too strong of a word. But you're right. I mean, there's an awful lot of work that goes into pulling it together and why why can I just talk to my boss and just say, hey, you know, this is what I'm struggling with, or can you help me with this? Or how are we doing just little pulse checks? And like you say, after negotiation or after something significant somebody's gone through this, this should be immediate feedback. Not this waiting for every six months. I think it's done. I think performance reviews are are over. But you tell me again, you're on the front line. Do you see companies across different industries moving away from the traditional performance review now?

I see now more and more every year, the chorus continues to grow louder on this performance review discussion, right? Or to say, hey, it is inane. In many ways it is outdated. Why can't we make this more objective? Because you're right. Part of why people disliked this so much is because it is subjective. And if you haven't coached, or trained your leaders on how to do this effectively, or if you don't have a really robust way of executing this, there's a lot of subjectivity that comes into it. So what's next? Is it going to be AI? Is an AI that will ultimately take this away from us and move it into a different realm. And we could be like, Okay, we're done with that. That sounds good. Sounds like it may be beneficial. But then there's this whole other conversation around the perils of what AI picks up accurately and what it does not. So it's one of those careful what you wish for, right to say, hey, can we automate this? Is there a tech here that can take this off our plate? Yeah, it'll probably be here sooner than we think. But are we going to like it? I don't know. We'll see.

Well, what I liked about Katherine's take on performance review, she's focusing very much on the how she's recognizing Yeah, of course, there are metrics, of course, or KPIs. But she's talking about the how and about behavior. And a lot of people will say that in leadership, but to actually do something about it, it actually changed the performance review system. That's what I love about her. She puts her money where her mouth is, did you get that sense from interview?

Yeah, and there was, it was a well articulated as well, that, hey, there could be people that are, let's say, toxic to the culture, there are people that are really good at what they do. But to your point, the behavior part. And as you two had that discussion is how do you deal with that? How do you deal with those, let's say difficult personality types that are creating this toxicity within the team or within a department or even within the company. And if you don't take that action, and it reflects poorly, on a leadership perspective, so have those conversations, make sure they understand the values, make sure why they know why their behaviors are falling short. But then most importantly, as you to discuss this, you have to take action when you identify that and if you don't, then that lip service that you give to all the other folks will be highly demoralizing to say the least.

And what's so surprising was Katherine, right? She's talking about work from home forever, and then the focus on performance reviews on the how. And she's a lawyer, let's not forget that fact, she's almost the last person that you would expect to have this type of view, which I believe is very progressive and forward thinking and extremely innovative. But you would expect with her background, and she's Chief Compliance Officer. So with all of that, you'd think she'd have the like a 35 page policy on work from home and performance reviews? And she is not because I think she's she's a leader for the future.

She really isn't those types of functions that she's overseeing. It's legal, its compliance, its HR, its communication. I mean, it's almost like she is being prepared. And you know, absolutely, why not to be, she could be a future CEO. Because the exposure she has across the company, the ability to lead, the ability to put these things in place and understand the business from all of these different facets, I think sets her up nicely, that if that's something that she wants to do, there's no reason why, at some point, she could be heading up an automotive company herself, because a lot of those traits in leadership is what is going to continue to help Mitsubishi thrive, right as I was listening to her, and how her mindset is, and when it comes to, even when you guys talked about the talent part upfront, right? And how you can now find people from all over but within, you know, obviously, they've got some requirements within tenancy and or hire people within those areas. But just that mindset of knowing how to attract and retain was really good to hear. And these leaders like this make what we do a lot easier. Because as you know, as we did with you is a big part of what we do. And selling an opportunity isn't just the name of the company. Yeah, that helps. Names are better known than others. But a bigger part also is the person they're working for, the leader, right? Yeah. What is she about? What is her style? What is her track record? How does she lead? Right? So a leader like that, they have a big advantage in continuing to bring on great talent just by virtue of how she's leading her organization.

Yeah. And you heard as we joked, we said that if we were not in the places we're at today in our lives, we'd be running a record store in Nashville together. And I mean, you know me well enough, you could totally see me doing something like.

You mean, you don't do that on the side yet?

No, no, no, no, no. But what what I love about that is, you know, Katherine is very comfortable in her own skin. And she has a unique look and a unique style. And music features heavy in her background and, and her life, and she's okay with that. She'll, she'll talk about that. She has this long, long black hair, with like a gray streaking it in it. It's very unique. It's fabulous. There's lots of people that would not do that in the corporate world. And I'll tell you something about being comfortable in your own skin, and the look that we project in the mold that we think was supposed to fit. I was at a OESA conference last week. And they had three purchasing executives up on stage. They had Zoosk, they had GM and Ford. Now, of course they got the pictures, you know, on the slide behind them, right? So the Zoosk guy has got a t shirt. And I don't think he I don't know if he had jeans on maybe, but a t shirt, very relaxed, you know, very comfortable in his own skin, the GM guy buttoned up, the lady from Ford, all buttoned up, it's like, just let it go break the mold people, right? This, this corporate image, of course, there's a level of professionalism, but it's okay to be you. And to let your authentic self come through. In fact, that will do more for you and bonding your team to you as a leader, then it will try to fit a corporate stuffy mold, don't you think?

100%. And, you know, if after the pandemic, in which many things changed, the least of which was not at higher, if even after that, you're still projecting an image of a buttoned up suit, or in more of a formal outfit, even in sessions like this, then that's, that's unfortunate. Because if there's one thing that you can take from here is that when you look at the on the dress side, it relaxed quite a bit. Right? Well, now there's this whole other school of thought, Oh, it went too far. It got too relaxed. Yeah, that's fine. It depends on the industry depends on what generation you're talking about. But even in a lot of the manufacturing world, in the automotive world, a great way to show yourself to be that, as you said, authentic and even approachable is don't wear a tie. Take the tie off. Right? Okay, you feel comfortable to sports coat, keep a t shirt on and put a coat on it fine, right. But you don't have to be so stuffy. You don't have to still project an image of you know, the late 20th century to show professionalism or competence. So I like how you said it is, be comfortable in your own skin right? Now, you can still be professional, you can still exude authority and confidence and competence by being dressed in a casual way that you're comfortable in. Right? So not sticking to whatever the conventional wisdom is about, oh, this is how you have to be on stage. So you're right about that. So and, and you're right about how not just Katherine, you know, the way she carries herself, but even for her. I loved how you got her to open up on her taste for music. And I think that's dumped her more than anything because she loves it so much. Right? I mean, that question you asked her about your top five, right? albums or artists of all time that was that was tough for her because she's such a music connoisseur and lover, that she's like, how do I? How do I narrow down to five.

She's got a great personality, and she's not afraid to show it. And that's what I absolutely love. Because, you know, over the decades that I've been in the automotive industry, I and I've said this many times, I've had to throw a blanket over my personality, to conform or to assimilate into a culture to be what they wanted me to be. And it's probably only the last what 10 years or so that I finally said forget it. You know, this is who I am. Yeah, I am a little bit edgy. Yeah, my my opinions and views are not conventional. They may not fit the mold that you think I should be fitting. But this is who I am, righ? and I will be raw and honest and open and direct. And it's just not for everybody and I just can't wait until we get to the day where everybody can come to work and truly be who they are and contribute in a way that's meaningful, not be afraid, they're gonna get their head chopped off, or they're going to be fired and that they're respected. They might be that person who is as quiet as a mouse because they're thinking. But when they speak, everybody needs to listen, I can't wait until that that world of work happens and the same, how far away are we from that happening?

Well, we everything was accelerated post pandemic, whether it's technology, whether it's trend, whether it's a new companies that have sprouted up. So what you're talking about this world of work, that journey is very much underway. And those companies that recognize the value of a broader, more inclusive set of workers are the ones that will continue to have a very serious advantage. I mean, there's now such an emphasis on, hey, just because you're an extrovert, and you're more outspoken or more in your face, doesn't mean you should get more airtime in meetings. Right? There are extremely intelligent introverts out there that don't say much, they'll speak less, but when they do, it's very impactful. How do you get them more engaged? Or more involved? How do you make sure their voices aren't drowned out? So and now as more and more of the younger generations come into the workforce, they will lead the charge because they will ask these questions, they will challenge some of these old ways of thinking and just ask why. And why not? We better be prepared to answer those questions.

Naseem, for the audience out there. Automotive leaders, all different levels in the automotive industry, that are listening to this and perhaps listen to the Katherine Knight episode. And they want to be more like her. They want to be more forward thinking leading edge innovative, when it comes to people. They want to step out there, they've got some great ideas deep down inside of them, they just don't quite have the guts or the confidence or whatever it takes to break the mold and do what they believe is right? What advice would you have for them?

Advice would that be too dissimilar to what you just said a little while ago is to just be your raw self authentic, right? Find your voice and don't be afraid to share it. Ultimately, we talked about this a lot is you are your own brand, you've got to build your own brand. So if you are not honest with yourself, and the way you act, feel everything, it'll be reflected, it'll stunt your growth, it will stunt your development. And it may create an impression about you, which is not reality. If there's one thing that's changed over the past couple of years is people have taken stock of their lives, their careers, their priorities, and have said a lot of them have said hey, you know, we're not all just work. We're not all just certain things that we work on or care about. Right? This is who we are from a holistic perspective. So my advice would be is to share that right? It could be something as simple as putting more content out in the digital world or creating your own website, or if they're lucky, and they're good, they can come on your podcast on automotive leaders, and get that boost. But whatever it is that you feel comfortable, do it right, express yourself, express your thoughts because what you're doing, it's creating your own. And this is something that I've been a proponent of is creating your own personal monopoly, right, find the intersection of what you're good at, of where you feel that you can add the most value where you can help folks where you have that advantage that you can share and you can pay forward. So once you've established that personal monopoly, you build your brand around it, then you've got to give yourself voice to do it. Because end of the day, you do work for yourself. Remember, that doesn't matter if you're with a company, any automotive company, you work for yourself and you owe it to yourself to be able to get your voice out there and written and speaking in podcast but find it whatever forum you like and build on that. That would be my my advice. s

Great word of wisdom right there from the man who's at the front line of all the action, of all the culture changes the future of work, Naseem Malik, thank you very much for joining me in this episode of the deconstruction of Katherine Knight.

Thank you so much.

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