In this weeks episode, Tazmin talks to Alex Wright, Agency Director at Clicky about whether high performing teams can be happy.

As there is an every increasing need for teams to be more productive, can they also be happy? Yes, says Alex and tells us how.

About Alex:

Alex is an experienced agency leader with 10 years' experience in digital. He is an search marketing specialist with a love of all things SEO & PPC.

He's worked brand-side at businesses such as Panasonic and Iceland Foods, and Ihe's also spent a number of years delivering transformational results for D2C Brands at Clicky Media. He's also a great speaker too!

Where to find Alex:

Clicky Media Website

Alex on LinkedIn

Alex on Twitter

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Hello, everyone, and welcome to another episode of the SEO Mindset Podcast. This is podcast that aims to give you all lots of information on soft skills. And today's episode is absolutely not going to disappoint. We're going to be talking about it's two terms that aren't often put together, happiness and high performance. So how do you balance a team's happiness and their high performance? I'm going to be joined today by Alex. Alex is the agency director at Clicky who has loads and loads, ten years plus experience in the digital world. And I have met well, I say met. I was in the audience when Alex was giving his talk on this topic at Brighton in April, and since then, I've been wanting to get him onto the show so he can share the information he did that day, plus more with everyone else listening today. But before we dive into lots and lots of questions, I've got a few reminders that Sarah and I usually start the episode off with. So if you are enjoying the podcast and would like to support Sarah and myself, there's a few ways you could do it. One is to subscribe to the podcast. We have many listeners who are not subscribers and we'd love to have more of you hit the subscribe button so you can be notified. Every time we release a podcast, it's usually about 40 a year. We try to do about 40, 45 a year, and that way every time there's an episode ready, you'll be able to be notified. There is a link in the show notes and there is also another link in the show notes for a donate one off payment for Buy me a coffee. So if you'd like to buy Sarah myself coffee, then that would be wonderful. So, Alex, thank you so much. It's taken a while to get our diaries aligned, but I'm really excited about today's episode because I loved your talk. I love the way you delivered your talk. You made the information really easy to digest. And I tell people, go to Brighton even if you're not listening to the actual content. It's a masterclass in talk delivery. Do you still get nervous when you're doing talks?

Every single time. It doesn't matter how many you do, it never gets easier for me.

Yeah, it didn't show. You were just very calm, very poised, and you were just relaying the information off beautifully. But for those people who are listening today that hadn't been at the Brighton talk, could you give us a little bit of a summary of what you told us that day?

Yeah, of course. So the whole premise of the talk was to talk about how we, like you said, deliver high performance in teams whilst not losing that element of culture that is so important and that drives people to work for organizations and to want to work for businesses. So what I kind of did was I broke what high performance looked like down, so it differs by every business. So essentially the SEO and me just won't say it depends and I managed to fit that into a slide, which was quite nice. But I guess first of all we defined what high performance looked like, so it was whatever that organization deemed to be important. So I gave an example of clicky. So us as an agency, so defined what high performance looked like for us, which was a few of our key pillars, things that related to the typical business metrics like revenue and profit, but then also client happiness, team happiness and those sort of things as well. We track those using various different things. So client and employee happiness tends to be tracked with something like NPS, so net promote score which is a good way of gauging that. But yeah, and then like I said, the others are things like revenue, profit and then client performance targets as well. So we started off by defining that and giving people an insight into how we do it, but then also hopefully giving them a few ideas as to how they can measure high performance in their organization. And then what I did from there was I broke it down into we started to look at the pillars of high performing teams and a few almost sort of habit and system based things that we could use to define high performance and some things that you can use to sort of foster that culture in a team. And as part of that, I tried to then show how that can have an impact on culture and making sure people are happy in their roles and happy with the organization. So I introduced what I call the Air framework, which is essentially accountability, incrementality and recognition. So talking about how these three areas, if we use them correctly, can not only help us to perform really well as a team, but they can also help us to build a culture that still allows us to get what we need from our workplace in terms of employees and also tries to make that transition from, like you said, high performance and employee happiness don't always go together. So it's how these can help us to bridge that gap between high performance and a really happy culture.

What made you go down this path? Is it something high performance and happiness is something you've always been interested in or is it more of an organizational conscious decision? Tell me a little bit about the background.

So for me, it's a bit of a strange way to look at it, but I've always been involved in sports teams over the years and things like that. And there's something beautiful about the moment that something clicks in a team. And you're all working towards a single. You're all performing really well, but you're all enjoying every second of it. It takes a while to get there, but I want to try and transfer that sort of feeling over to business because I felt like it was transferable. I felt like it was achievable as well. So that's what sort of led me down this path. And some of the analogies that I used at Brighton SEO as well were sports related because you talk about teams that perform to a really high standard. There are a lot of sports teams that do that. And that's kind of where the idea came from and how I started to develop that from there. Like I said, it's knowing that there's that feeling when everything gels, everything just sort of clicks into place. If we can get that in business, then you're going to be flying as an organization and everyone's going to be happy. So that's kind of where the idea came from. And personally, I've always been quite passionate about building a workplace that people are happy to be involved with, proud to be associated with. They want to come to work day after day. But also, I know that as a business leader, I've got to make sure I hit my targets and I've got to make sure that we move forward as a business. So it's balancing those two. So something I'm really, like I said, something I'm really passionate about is the happiness side, but also making sure that it makes sense from a commercial perspective as well.

But they don't necessarily clash with each other, do they? They go hand in hand. And it's trying to get people and organizations to understand that that there is an ROI on your team being happy.

Yeah, exactly. And I think you can see the correlation between teams being more engaged, more happy, and performance being high as well. And it makes high performance a lot easier to achieve when you have got such a high performing team. I mean, you can have really talented people in a business, but if they are less engaged, you'll probably get less out of them. And on the flip side, if they're more engaged, they're more happy. If you build that culture, they're happy to be associated with, and it makes them want to come to work every day. You just get more out of them. So it takes really talented employees to the next level because they just want to do good work as well, because it makes them as passionate about the business as you are as well. That's a really powerful thing to have.

What would you say to the skeptics out there?

Well, if you're skeptical of the approach or if you're skeptical that you can have the two together, I think you just probably haven't got the systems right in the past, and that's not on anyone. It can be quite hard to get that balance. It's not an easy thing because if it was, everyone would do it. If it was easy to create a high pulling workplace that everyone was really happy in, then every company would have that and we wouldn't have companies with bad glass door reviews or poor employee reviews and we wouldn't have people wanting to look for new roles because everyone would be happy in their current workplace. So, yeah, I think it's possible, but it is difficult. And to the skeptics, I guess it's about keeping an open mind, really, about how it can be achievable, because I understand why someone might not think it would be because it is really hard to achieve.

In the past, when I've been working in leadership roles, passionate, much the same as you are, it's often the team members who will roll their eyes and go, here we go again, because it is difficult to achieve. But with that attitude, it just makes it harder to achieve. And it's tricky. It really is tricky.

Yeah. And it's that open mindedness. Yeah, exactly. It's open mindedness from the team members as well. And something that when we introduced this at Clicky and when I've introduced people before, it's the team members I try and address as well because obviously they're a big part of this. And whenever we change, whenever we add something to new at Clicky, one of the things I say is, look, just try it. If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. Hold my hands up and we'll do something else. But if you give me 100% on this and we try everything we can to make it work, if it works, absolutely fantastic. If it doesn't, we try something. We try something new. And that kind of approach as well helps to get people buy in because they know that you're listening to them, they know you'll listen to the feedback. You just have to make sure you follow through on it. So if you do implement something and you can see that it doesn't work and you set yourself a clear deadline for assessing that and making sure that you do stick to those timelines, people will then buy into that. And every time you try and introduce something new like this, they will then continue to give you everything. And yeah, if it doesn't work, they know that something else will be on the way after that. So, yeah, I think, again, it can be met with resistance, but it's all about building up trust and accountability for yourself and with your team and making sure they can trust that you will make the right call if something does or doesn't work. So, yeah, it's, again, a powerful thing.

To have just in those few sentences that you said. For me, it delivers so much insight, the fact that somebody can stand up in front of their team and say, look, let's give it a go. If it doesn't work, we'll try something different. And they knowing that there is that two way communication. Now, I feel that that's where so many organizations fall over. They've sat in a room, decided that this is the approach they're going to take, this is what's going to work. And they then just deliver it as a this is what's going to happen. And that automatically then from the employee point of view, will just close the door. Not interested because they're being told rather than being part of the process. And again, this is something that's easy to say, but hard to do.

Yeah, absolutely. And you need to make people feel comfortable. They can give that feedback as well. So one of the pillars, I guess, of the framework, like I said, was accountability. And that's not just accountability for team members. That is accountability for everyone in that organization and having a culture that encourages feedback. And that encourages feedback not just from managers to the team, it's from the team up to leadership and further up from there. And people being able to give feedback to people on their own level. It's just making sure that there's a culture of shared commitment to feedback and that you have frameworks in place as well. So Bright and I talked about the SBI framework that we like to use, or I've used it a lot over the years, which is situation behavior impact. So if you have feedback with somebody, you describe the situation that occurred, their behavior in that situation and the impact of their behavior in that situation. And that's a really easy way to deliver feedback that people are comfortable with. Also, it's one that we make everyone aware of. So everyone knows that if you're going to get feedback, it's likely to be in that format. So you know how to digest it, you know how to respond to it. And that's a really powerful thing. So it's having that making sure everyone is accountable within the organization, which builds the trust from the team as well. So they know, my team know they can come and give me feedback whenever they want and everything will be taken on board and we'll do what we can about what the feedback is. A lot of organizations don't have that. I've worked in organizations previously where the thought of giving direct feedback to my line manager, never mind my line manager's, line manager would be terrifying because first of all, it probably wouldn't be listened to. And second of all, it would probably put a bit of a black mark against my name to say this person is going to be a problem. So yeah, it depends on the organization. But it's good to have that culture of shared feedback.

And those two examples, scenarios that you highlighted doesn't make for a happy team. And again, we clearly both believe that that happiness does deliver to the bottom line. And I guess also, have you noticed that staff are staying on longer? The retention is better?

Yeah, I mean, we have a fairly strong retention rate at Clicky. So yeah, it does have an impact on retention rate. The more engaged somebody is, the more likely they are to stay at the organization. Interestingly as well that we do have some people that leave that come back as well. So it gives us a bit of confidence to know that a lot of the systems and approaches we've put into place are helping us from that perspective. Obviously you can't get it right every single time, but I'd like to think that the numbers that we see from the retention and advocacy perspective particularly, are sort of telling of the success of the systems that we have in place.

It's a really good summary of what you talked about that day and description of what that model looks like, what sort of things you need to put into it, some hurdles that you may face. So it's been really helpful. We're going to take a break in a minute. After the break, we'll talk a little bit more detail about what if a new manager wants to develop this and what sort of skills would you recommend that they took on and advice to team members. But is there anything else you want to add to the concept of it or do you think we've covered it all?

I think we've covered it, but I would say if people are interested, then we'll probably pop a link to my Brighton SEO slides somewhere from this as well, because all the detail really is in there from the system and process perspective. So hopefully that can give a bit more context as to what I'm saying as well.

That would be great. So if you send them over, what I'll do is I'll put the link in the show notes so that they can access it straight away. That'd be really good. I do remember the football references as well. Some of it I didn't understand, but I do get it. And when you see football teams and that camaraderie and like you said, when it all clicks, I don't watch a lot of football, but when I do, you do notice a difference with a team that are tussling against each other, opposed to the teams that are more fluid?

Yeah, 100%. And I guess there's the team gel in perspective, but there's also the team faith in the manager as well. So it frequently happens in football as an example, is the teams lose faith in their leader and you can see that in their performance as well. So it's just as important from a leadership buying perspective and you hear them.

In the interviews when they've got that respect for their manager. It's not just words that they're saying, you can feel that respect and that admiration and that trust. So, no, it's really good connection between the two very different fields. We'll take a break right now and we will be back shortly to talk to Alex a bit more depth on this topic. So, welcome everyone back to part two of this really interesting podcast on team performance and happiness and balancing the two. So I'm talking to Alex from Clicky about it, partly because I have listened to his talk at Brighton. I'm excited about the next talk. You're speaking in September, as am.

Yeah. So, yeah, I've just been given my slot in the schedule for the couple of days, so really excited for that one.

Yeah. When are you speaking? On Thursday or Friday?

Thursday morning. So, yeah, I get it done and out of the way quite early, which means I can enjoy the rest of the conference as well. Without worrying too much, are you allowed.

To tell us what you're going to talk about?

Yeah, so my talk is actually going to be way more technical than the last one that I've done, so it's going to be on log file analysis for SEO. So, yeah, completely opposite end of the scale, but yeah, I noticed that Kelvin was looking for some more technical speakers, so I thought I'd go for that one instead.

Yeah, I'm not speaking until Friday, I think the 1140 slot. So at 1040, I'll be rushing off to one of the rooms to run one of their mindfulness sessions, finish that and then rush back again to deliver the talk. But Brighton gets busier and busier for me now because we do the live podcast on the Wednesday. I do mindfulness sessions on Thursday and the Friday, and this time I'm giving the talk, so maybe I need a house there, who knows? So, before the break, we talked about the concept of a high performing team that is also happy. What advice would you give an organization, or indeed a new manager who wants to adopt this way of working? And also, what sort of things should they be mindful of? What advice would you give?

I think for me, that the first thing that you have to do, and we touched on it a little bit before, is you've got to build up that trust with your team. You've got to build up the accountability side of things for yourself. I wouldn't say jump straight into this if it's something you've never done before, if it's something that is new to you and new to your organization, don't just try and do it all at once. That is going to probably cause way more issues than you'd expect. So there's a whole thing with change management and being able to manage change effectively in a team, and not a lot of people will take kindly to things coming in completely out of the blue and quite large scale changes, which this can be over time. So try not to do it all at once. And then, like we talked about before, the way that I tend to work with the team is that we have an understanding and relationship based on trust that I will say we'll try something out. If it does not work, we'll scrap it, we'll get rid of it, we'll try something else, and then we keep moving in that circle until we find something that works everyone else. But that doesn't just happen. You can't just tell people to trust you with this overnight. You have to show that what you are going to do, what you said you're going to do, that you will follow through on those actions, that if something doesn't work, you will absolutely stop that and then try something else. So I think if you're a new manager to this, I would focus on building up that rapport, building up that trust and relationship with your team and making sure they know that they can trust. When you say that if it doesn't work, you'll stop. So I guess that if you're completely new to it, those two things. So don't try and do it all at once and then make sure that you do have that foundation of trust and accountability in place. And I think make sure that you've got a lot of the frameworks down in terms of how to give feedback, how to receive feedback, correct intervals for that. So I would start with that rather than trying to put these systems in place straight away. There's a lot of foundational knowledge, I think that you do need before you try and jump into something like this. Because it's one thing to take a presentation for Brighton SEO, for example, and try to implement that. It's another to understand the frameworks and systems that go beneath that and make sure that when you are in the midst of implementing this system, that you're able to deal with any challenges that come your way. Maybe someone is working outside of one of the frameworks, or maybe somebody hasn't quite understood how things are supposed to work. You need to make sure you can deal with that on the fly as well. So really get a foundational knowledge of, like I said, some of those frameworks, those systems, those processes. And really, I think the trust is probably the most important thing to me.

So we're going to put your slide deck in the show notes. Do you have any other resources that you would recommend? Because you were saying there is some learning to be done. Are there any books or people or anything like that?

Yeah, so a book that was actually recommended to me by my old manager and mentor as well. So she actually got me to read a book called the 1 Minute Manager. So again, just for leadership roles, really, but it's a good short book on how to structure feedback correctly, when to give feedback, how to give feedback, and just ways that you can manage that with the team, so it doesn't feel so overwhelming. One thing I have seen before in organizations is that people get given feedback at like six month or twelve month intervals. And it could be that something has happened four or five months ago and you're bringing it up in a six month review. When the time has already passed, the time for feedback has already passed and suddenly you're dredging something back up to give somebody criticism or critical feedback, which just isn't helpful. So the 1 minute manager really helped me with that in terms of trying to understand what interval is appropriate, how it is appropriate to give feedback, and sort of the methods behind that. So it's a really useful resource from my perspective.

So we'll put a link to the show notes on that book. So that's the framework and the technical side of it. What about the softer side? What sort of soft skills would you encourage them to develop?

So, soft skills wise for management, I think active listening for me is always a really positive skill to have because it helps to build that rapport with the team. Like I said, it's important that you do that. And one good way to do that is to show them that you're listening to them, to show that you're acting on what they need you to do. So that sort of skill to me is probably one of the more important ones. I think that's probably the one that can help you the most with this framework.

Yeah, active listening, it just is that gift that keeps on giving, whether it's in your workplace or at home, any situation. And we've said this time and time again, nobody gets taught how to listen. One of the tips that I got from I can't remember what course I was on, is talking about working with introverts, saying ask them the question, pause, let them answer. And when they've answered, don't say anything. Encourage, smile or nod or go. But what you'll find as introverts in particular, they will carry on talking. Because for them it's like, oh no, I have to say something. Let me just say this thing quickly and get my point across. And then when they realize that actually there is that space open for them and I'm holding that space and they can carry on talking, that's where the gold really is. And in coaching, same.

Yeah, I think that's such a powerful thing. I think you find that a lot of I say anecdotally, I found that a lot of the digital industry, particularly SEO industry, is quite introverted, at least from the people that I've come into contact with. Like I said, it's anecdotal more than anything, but knowing how to work with and how to communicate with introverts I think is really important in our industry, particularly.

So listening skills, is there anything else that comes to mind?

I think that's the main one from a soft skill perspective. And yeah, I think just being able to, I guess, deliver things as well. So if you're in a leadership role and you're trying to get buy in from your team, you have to know how to deliver something correctly. So I wouldn't say it's quite presentation skills or public speaking skills. It's somewhere in that arena, but it's being able to present a concept to your team that is very different. It's being able to make sure that you're able to present it in a way that allays any of the fears or concerns they might have and gets them excited about it as well. Because like I said, these sorts of things, you bring them in can be quite jarring for people and they can be quite a big change. And some people don't deal well with change. So you have to make sure that when you present it to them, when you're trying to get their buy in for it, that you're presenting it in a way that's going to make them excited rather than concerned. And yeah, I think that's quite a difficult thing to do.

And I suppose off the back of that, whether they're excited or concerned, they may not verbalize that. So being able to have the skills to listen without them speaking, that emotional intelligence element, which it is improving, but it's very slow, this emotional intelligence for people in leadership roles often gets pushed further and further down the list. But actually I feel it's one of the most important elements of it.

Yeah, EQ absolutely. I think it's so important and something a lot of people can miss. Like you said, in a leadership role, if you don't have a good level of emotional intelligence, you can miss so many cues when you're talking to somebody, you can miss certain nuance in the way they're saying things and it can lead to problems down the line as well. And I like what you said there about being able to gauge people's reaction. I think reading the room is I think it's a skill that I picked up a little bit more as I've worked agency side, because I work with so many different clients and different businesses and therefore just a whole different host of personality types. And reading the room was quite a useful skill to have because like I said, as you're talking, you can start to gauge people's reactions. You can see the body language that they're starting to exhibit, if they're switching off to it, how you might need to switch up, how you talk about something. Yeah, I think that's quite a useful one to have too.

Yeah, I think even gauging the energy. So in the work I do, I'll say to people, you can go into a room, there'll be three people sat down, not saying a word, you can't even see their face, they've got their backs to you, but you can feel there is a peace and tranquility in that room. You go to another room, same scenario, and you'll feel less comfortable, you can't even see their faces, but their thoughts will create this energy. And being able to be still enough in any room to gauge that energy is something that, again, we're not often taught, it's not often even highlighted, but. It's so important as a manager to be able to feel that.

Yeah, I completely agree.

So what advice would you give to a team member? We've talked a lot about the concept. We've talked about what a new manager could do. Say there is a team member and they're part of this new concept. Happy, high performing, everyone's loving it, but they've got a problem, they're not sure what to do. And I know you've touched upon feedback, but how is it best for them to communicate it to the manager? And supposing there is no framework in place?

Yeah. So I think that you can't be having just a complete one to one with your manager. And I think you need to have something like a one to one session where you set expectations of each other as well, so you could talk about how you both like to receive and give feedback and how that can work between the two of you. Make sure that if you're a team member, you're clear on what your expectations or what the manager's expectations are of you. And equally, like I said, the kind of things that you would want them to be aware of as they're managing you as well. I think that's probably a good way to gauge how much, I guess, EQ your manager might have as well, in the sense that if they're willing to have that session with you and have that open discussion, that's a sign of a really good manager because they're obviously open to changing the way that they work or approach things. And they're open to making sure they tailor that to you, which is an important skill to have as a manager. And I think that is almost a non negotiable, is making sure that you've got the ability to change how you work with people and to listen to feedback and have those, like I said, those open discussions with people. At least that's how I would like someone to come to me and just say, I'm not sure about this, or I'm struggling with this. Can you give me a bit more insight into certain areas? Or is there a way that we like, how how can we work together? How can we give each other feedback? I think that's probably the best way to do it is just that open discussion. I appreciate that's not going to be easy for everyone because I don't know if that is something that every organization has, is someone that's able to listen like that, but certainly for myself and the managers that I know and the leaders that I know enroll, I think that would be a really good approach.

Alex, can you write a post on LinkedIn Manager Non negotiables? I love that.

Yeah, that's a good idea for a post.

That's a really good one. I do hear what you're saying though, that sometimes the organization isn't geared up towards that sort of framework. So it's great to be able to if you can go in and work out that framework between you. I would also encourage people that if you're part of an organization that doesn't have the framework, that has a manager that isn't willing to listen, doesn't want to engage in that, then maybe you've got a bigger question to ask rather than whether that little problem you may have in the team. I think sometimes these are all little clues about whether you should be there at all because if you don't own your career, you're stuffed. You can't wait for everyone else to sort themselves out before your career is sorted. I tell people, just think of yourself as an entrepreneur, even if you are employed, rather than giving that ownership to somebody else.

Sorry, I was going to say you've got to have that relationship with your manager and like you said, it's probably a clue if you can't have that. Because everyone should want to know what their expectations are of each other and that's how you get to high performing place is, you know, how best to work with each other.

Sadly, we've run out of time. We ask a few questions to all of our guests. One of them is what would you like our listeners to take away as their main takeaway from today's episode?

I think the main thing is that that high performance in a team is possible without losing culture. And if you can't balance the two, or if you think you're in an organization that absolutely couldn't, then like you said, it maybe is a clue as to what you should be doing with your career after that. But yeah, I think the takeaway is that you can get a high performing team without sacrificing our nest as well.

Brilliant. And what's the best career advice you've ever been given?

Not sure whether it would constitute as advice, but I had a moment earlier in my career with one of my old managers who gave me some really tough honest feedback that I'd never had before and it was the best thing that has ever happened. So I guess being open to feedback as an advice perspective, so making sure that if it is negative feedback, as long as it's come from the right place and it's hard to gauge at the time whether it's correct. I didn't take it very well, if I'm being completely honest. But yeah, being able to take that feedback and being able to see where the other party is coming from I think is a really good skill. And admitting that you never know everything. So feedback is always useful.

Okay, so I was going to ask what's the best career advice you would give our listeners? Do you want to sort of wrap it up in the same thing or have you got something else?

No, I think I would wrap it up in the same thing. I think, yeah, you can never know everything and yeah, feedback is the most important way to keep learning and developing your skills. So embrace it, enjoy it when it comes and as long as it is structured in the right way, I guess is the caveat to that. Because there are forms of feedback that aren't great but as long as you've been given structured feedback, take it on board and then try and try and unpick that and work out what that can do to help you develop.

Next question. One person to follow in.

Oh, if you're into, I guess, the development of SEO, I love posts from Morty Oberstein. Obviously hosts podcast himself as well. But, yeah, he's got some really useful posts on SEO and, yeah, great part of the community.

Wonderful. I will put a link to LinkedIn in the Show Notes as well as so we've got the LinkedIn and social media, but what's the best place to contact you?

I think LinkedIn is usually the best place to contact me. So my LinkedIn URL, I think, is Alex marketing. So nice and easy to remember, but if you search for Alex Wright, hopefully they'll come up. So, yeah, best place to find me. And I post regularly on there as well.

I've seen your posts. I love your posts. They're really easy to read and really eye catching. So I'm going to ask a slightly different question. What sort of things would you be able to help people with if they were to contact you?

Yeah, I can help with a variety of different things. So SEO search marketing is obviously my day to day, but equally, if someone wants to have a chat around building high performing teams and culture and trying to balance that and sort of some ways to manage teams effectively, also more than happy to help from that perspective as well.

That's really great because people have been listening to this. Although you've given us a lot of detail, I'm thinking that that detail then opens up more questions. So if anybody who's listening wants to ask Alex more and more detail, I might be picking your brain about one or two things that you said as well. You know where to find him. I certainly know where to find so I'm going to wrap up the podcast for today. Quick reminders that if you'd like to support Sarah and myself with the buy me a coffee or subscribe to the podcast, then the link will be in the Show Notes. Alex, thank you so much for today. It's been it's been lovely talking to you and a wonderful topic to talk about.

Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed that. Wonderful.

Take care.