Ian Bullock is an RICS Chartered Surveyor and Valuer and is Managing Director of Carpenter Surveyors, a practice specialising in all things residential property and real estate - RICS Survey & Valuation for private and secured lending clients and Expert Witness reports.

In this episode, we discuss Ian's career path, what made him decide to move from a corporate to an SME environment, the pros and cons of working for both, and his new business venture - Surventrix.

What we cover:

• His career journey, starting on the Countrywide Surveyors TechRICS trainee program after university and then jointly running his business, Carpenter Surveyors.
• Working in a corporate environment versus for an SME – pros and cons.
• Why Ian decided to leave his corporate career to join an SME environment.
• How to deal with complaints/claims
• Reporting – how easy and accessible are surveyors’ reports?
• Information sharing and support within the industry – what’s lacking
• How Carpenter Surveyors evolved over the years
• Talking about his new venture – Surventrix (Proptech) – a software solution for the surveying and finance sector designed by surveyors for surveyors.

Connect with Ian Bullock:

• LinkedIn
• Website - Carpenter Surveyor
• Website - Surventrix

Connect with Marion:

• TikTok 
• Instagram 
• LinkedIn  

Resources: 

• Business for Good: Home - B1G1: Business For Good
• Our Impact: When business is about people, planet and profit, in that order, everyone wins.
• RICS

The Surveyor Hub:

• Watch The Surveyor Hub Webinars
• Join the Facebook Community 
• Watch the Women in Surveying Virtual Summit
• Please show your support by buying me a coffee
• Find out more at www.lovesurveying.com
• Sign up for podcast reminders and Love Surveying weekly news here

that's probably the best bit of advice I'd give to anyone.

If I could look back 30 years and say, you know, how you start your

career is the most important and valuable lesson we can all learn,

and, you know, love them or hate them.

Corporates have a massive part to playing that.

Welcome to the Surveyor Hub Podcast.

The Podcast for surveyors who just love what they do.

I'm Marion Ellis, and in today's episode I catch up with Ian Bullock

of Carpenter Surveyors chatting about all kinds of things from how he got

started, how he feels about corporate surveying firms and the differences with

smaller firms, working for yourself.

But we also talk about complaints claims, and how he's developing his business

into creating software specifically for surveyors on the launch of Surventrix

So if you are out and about for the day or on your daily commute, listen

in and don't forget to take a look at the show notes when you get a chance

welcome to the podcast, Ian.

Thank you for having me.

We were just having a really good NASA before I pressed record.

I could have, should have recorded all of that as well, wouldn't I?

All the way in

the in the beginning.

Aren't we really?

Good.

Turns out we work for the same company, probably around the same time.

Ian, introduce yourself to people listening who may not know who you.

Yeah, sure.

So I'm Ian Bullock.

I run a an s m e, a residential survey valuation practice

called Carpenter Surveyors.

I've been doing the job for 25 ish years, I guess, give or take

a bit longer than that maybe.

Started life at Countrywide Surveyors we were just talking

about straight Outta uni.

Quite proud of the fact, interesting fact that I was one of the first,

if not the first, to go on to the Countrywide Surveyors TechRICS

trainee program at the time.

So, ah, Yeah, so that's where I started.

Straight over uni, straight into Countrywide

I have to say it was one of the best things I could have ever done.

Paul Cutbill brilliant man.

I think he's retired now.

Dare He has, yeah, him a while, but brilliant guy.

But but yeah, he was responsible for heading up at the time I think industry

leading sort of training program really.

And let's say there was me and I think 19 others, there was an intake of about 20.

It was like a Countrywide Surveyors University, effectively.

So we went through that.

We all came out of that with TechRICS status.

And yeah, I was at Countrywide for a number of years.

Loved it.

Great company to work for.

Very different at the time to what it is now, maybe, I don't know.

But yeah, we used to do a lot of skilled lending work and

level two surveys, et cetera.

Interesting you saying about the, and I recall now why.

We know each other or don't know each other from those days because I've joined

Countrywide to get three months valuation experience so I could get get chartered.

And I stayed there 15 years in the end, but I didn't get onto the tech course

that just started because I was so far ahead and there was about eight or nine

of us rouge M R I C S C candidates.

And so we didn't get your training.

We were just.

Hung about in different,

It's funny cause me and Sonya are based at country at the same time.

She had the same desk.

She was working through her MRICS, I was through the TechRICS and we used

to joke cause I used to get such a good training package with all the equipment

and stuff, and she'd sit there and said, I'm not getting any of this.

No.

did it the

hard way.

Absolutely.

Absolutely.

But no.

Brilliant place to grow up really.

I think, in terms of foundations into the job and the industry

couldn't find any better and I'd do it all over again, quite frankly.

I,

yeah and I think, we talk about, the state of graduates and trainees

and it has totally evolved and since our day, it's not an easy thing to go through.

It's not an easy thing to find your first job.

And I think there's.

You know, I mean, I work for myself now and whilst I can be critical of corporate

firms, I can be critical of SMEs as well.

It's almost and we were just saying before we start a press record and

it's like a rite of passage to work for different firms, and that's no bad thing.

starting off working for a corporate on a trainee program like that get you

to where you, you need to be there.

There's some really supportive great people there.

, you've just gotta think longer term.

you might do it for a few years.

What might you do next?

It's okay to move around the different firms because they all have, and you're

only ever as good as your team when you are line manager or regional manager.

And those things change sometimes until such time you are ready to

then go and work, work by yourself.

So, yeah, I'd you.

Whilst we can be critical of each other as we are, it's a really great learning

ground to get the number of properties and the structured training and support.

Yeah.

so, and it's not easy.

It's not easy being

a trainee.

No, not at all.

I think, I loved it and I would implore anybody to consider it.

I think, we can all end up at the same destination working for ourselves

if it's something we all aspire to.

, but you know, it is a difficult job.

It's a very technical job and I'm still learning now.

I learn every day and I push myself to learn every day as we all do.

That's just the nature of our industry.

But it would've been a very scary world just hitting the ground,

running on my own back then.

I can see why people do it.

everybody wants, work-life balance and flexibility.

I get that.

But yeah I'm one of the, From fans of the sort of corporate, sort of trainee

programs and even now, I mean, the likes of SDL, they're doing some fantastic stuff

with SAVA and the courses and training.

It's been, yeah, brilliant.

It's what the industry's always needed.

And it's great to see, but yeah, I think it's something to work towards.

So, Start off in a structured, supportive environment that has

the capability and the funding and everything to get you through.

And then you've always got the big wide world of surveying

outside of that when you want to,

so how did you end up setting up at your own business?

What was your journey like?

Yeah, it's an interesting one.

I, ironically, I never set out to set up my own business.

I'm one of these that's not driven with long-term aspirations to,

conquer the surveying world as it were or anything like that.

But I joined out at university into countrywide.

I joined there.

I knew I wanted to be a surveyor.

That was it.

it was a local practice, a local sort of office, and was brilliant.

it was such a good old school environment of, you know, the admin team were sharing

space with the surveying team, so you got to learn all sides of the business,

you know, and I enjoyed my time there

and I think, back then, there was like something like a

hundred and seventy five, two hundred Countrywide offices across the country.

Oh yeah, absolutely.

And it, they really did feel like small local businesses, didn't they?

And obviously technology came in and things changed.

you said you always wanted to be a surveyor.

We don't get many of those.

People like you on the podcast.

Ian a lot of people say I fell into it, but tell me, when did

you first hear about surveying?

I suppose saying I always wanted to be a

surveyor, that's probably wrong.

I mean, I didn't sort of from the age of five say, oh, I wanna be a surveyor.

I was always interested in property.

I love history anyway, and I was interested in buildings and property

and I love geography at school.

And I remember getting to.

From a level stage, just finishing that and thinking,

well, what do I really wanna do?

I knew I loved something to do with land and geography and it was a choice in

the end, bizarrely of geology, of all things or going into land administration.

And I went down the land admin route and it was just a pathway that all

sort of explored all property related.

So you could go in whichever way I went through estate management.

So it's kind of a pathway that I just, I thought, you know

what, from very early on I.

I can see the civilian role being something that's quite enjoyable.

. So I suppose it wasn't really until sort of just finishing college and

a levels at that point where I was like, right, that's what I want to do.

But at the time it was quite straightforward.

the big firms like Countrywide were doing milk rounds as they called them.

going around all the universities actively recruiting and offering things

like cars and shiny things like that.

It was brilliant.

But yes, it kind of just found me really in a way, I suppose, But

but yeah, so, and I spent quite a lot of time at Countrywide.

I loved it.

And I wouldn't say I wanted to leave countrywide.

It was just my old office manager at the time.

He left the practice to set up an a state agency survey department.

And it was an independent 15 office agency.

And he said, look, we're setting up survey team.

Would you like to come join us?

And, the world's royster.

I thought, you know what, that sounds like a good opportunity.

It felt like a good new challenge, different direction.

I felt as though.

I hadn't exhausted all my options, got to sort of a good regional

level surveyor and all those things at countrywide, but I just felt

like, just wanted a new challenge.

So, so I sort of jumped at that into the SM E world at that time, not knowing

what the SME world was, obviously it was just, this is something different.

It's a, a small fish in a big farm pond.

And that was what sort of I found interesting cuz it was all about.

Relationships and people and developing something other than just

being looked after all the time.

And the beautiful thing about working for, a corporate is you are handheld

all the way through the process.

You don't have to worry about anything.

You wake up, you do jobs, you go home and it's, it is that security

blanket that, a lot of people love.

And I've got colleagues now you know, that's still there

that's still at and Fantastic.

Been there for like 40 years.

And it's quite a sense of camaraderie.

in terms of your regional team and being part of something and belonging,

you can either engage with that or not.

And and it is a a good thing and a bad feeling in many ways that we,

when you work for a corporate, you don't see how much you are supported.

it's a tough job.

You work long hours and all of that, and we can have our gripes.

You don't see how much you're actually supporting until you work

for yourself and have to do it

Absolutely.

Yourself.

Yeah, no, hence while I've got no hair left and it's all great.

But yeah, no, I mean, even things like complaints, with the flip side of where

I'm am now in my role, I deal with all the complaints as I'm getting.

Yes, we get them.

We're normal, we're human, everybody gets them.

But you look back to Countrywide and think, well, if I ever saw a complaint,

doesn't mean you didn't get Oh, I did.

I

was dealing with them . Yes,

exactly.

Yeah.

You did it, you did them all.

But no, that support system, and I think when you are just starting out,

I can't stress how important that is.

It is a tough world out there.

Our job is not easy.

and there's other things that I've sort of explored over the last few years, and one

of them is it's a complaint working group.

It's something that's just an informal thing that we'd like to Michael Holden

and various other respected individuals.

We just got together and we thought, look, this is something to chat through.

Yeah,

so, so obviously I'm just sitting on, it's only an informal thing.

It's not anything formally, but there's a group of like-minded people

and there's brilliant minds in there.

Much more intelligent minds than me, we've just got together because as I

think as an industry and touching on that point about the importance of having

support system and that environment.

as an SME and this sole practitioner, you just don't have it.

It's all on you.

So there's lots of people around the country and one of the things

I think that isn't out there that is, is something that's really

important is dealing with complaints.

And it's how you I mean, we can all learn to deal with, customer

service and developing technology and all those kind of wonderful

things around running a business.

But the reality is mistakes happen.

We're all human, we make them.

So it's how you deal with them.

That's important.

I suppose for my sins, there's other areas I've sort of delved into within

surveying that have helped me to think, well, it'd be good to help pass that,

not knowledge but sort of support system across to other people as well.

And so that's an interesting one that I'm cur curious to

explore more really, in a way.

Yeah.

And that's pushing all of my buttons in terms of, how you

deal with complaints and claims.

Because what I see.

Is, a complaint comes in and the first thing people say is, who's to blame?

What went wrong?

Or, they're really defensive and we totally dehumanize it all.

very often my experience with claims is that it's not all down to the

surveyor's technical knowledge.

And we worry about doing the right c p D and learning all the right things.

And yes, you've got to be technically competent to do a job,

but it's the support around it.

And if you don't understand your client's worries, what they're

anxious about, no matter how small.

they become sort of little hooks, little things that just sort of catch you out and

then all of a sudden it becomes a catalog of things that they're not happy with.

And the problem with being in a corporate is as a surveyor, you can

only control the bit that you do.

You've got different departments looking after different parts

of that whole customer journey.

Whereas an s m e, you've got more control and oversight of it, but it

doesn't mean you're any good at it.

And so if people aren't doing C P D.

understanding customers, relationships, making sure they understand what

is actually in their T&C's and have them written properly by a lawyer,

not just copy from someone else.

Taking ownership of your reports and the content and the way

that you want to write it.

You've really gotta take ownership of it all.

And then there's the handling of it and.

people can be, you know, know, the, when you get a complaint or a claim

through it is like a gut punch.

, it's horrible cuz you've gone out to do a good job and for whatever

reason, it hasn't happened.

And the handling of it can be really critical.

how it's closed down quickly, how you then get, get over it and you don't

want things escalating to court.

And ultimately they can, as we all know, But when we're looking

at it ourselves or within a small business, you do not have perspective.

you need to be able to step back or have support or help or be

able to talk things through.

And I think that's why as a profession, we've become very defensive.

with lots of caveats in reports I see it sometimes on the surveyor hub.

someone will inquire about something, a client, and, oh, don't touch that client.

Don't go near them.

and we become really restricted and make decisions based on fear when actually,

you know, a lot of these big companies put money aside for future claims.

they budget for it.

And that's not about having.

poor quality people in their team.

It's about the reality of knowing the industry and the

business that, that you're in.

I think the thing I find found most though, I mean, it taught me, when

I dealt with claims, it taught me a lot about customer experience and

customer journey and all those things.

And then the technical side, it taught me a lot about surveyors

themselves as individuals.

And that's why I coach and work with people now.

And what would happen though is a claim would come through and I've dealt with

them not just for corporates, with small firms and all different shapes and sizes.

There is nothing, I've not seen Ian, but I would phone someone up and

say looks like we got a problem.

Yeah.

And nine times out of 10, the reaction would be something like, I knew that one

was gonna be a problem, or that vendor was a pain in the neck, or That was the day.

My tablet broke down, the car broke down, something happened.

And what they didn't do is trust their gut instinct to give themselves more

time to double check something, to call something out, make it a building survey

rather than a level two or whatever.

And there's always that element of not trusting your.

Your gut instinct because you're so focused on doing the job and getting it

right and things and that's a really hard thing that I think only really comes with

experience, which is why it's important for those qualifying and coming through

that they do that within a safety net.

Yeah, totally.

Think that's probably the best bit of advice I'd give to anyone.

If I back 30 years and say, how you start your career is the most

important and valuable lesson we can all learn, and, love them or hate them.

Corporates have a massive part to playing that.

I think it's always good to have a good support, whether you're

an sm a, whether you're a sole practitioner, or whether you choose

to go down corporate, sort of start.

You need a support system around you.

It's a big lonely old job.

Otherwise, and not just that, I've surrounded myself with good people.

That's why we've done well.

It's not that I'm amazing or I'm the best of that, I'm not.

It's just the fact that I'm a good judge of people and I know how to

place brilliant minds around me.

And it's as simple as that really.

But you need that support without it.

I think things like running a business and complaints, there's so many things.

Like I say, I'm still learning now and it's best part of 30 year career and it's.

I look back and think, wow, that went quick.

But you never stopped learning really.

So yeah, but each their own, I mean, I'm sure people will have their own

ideas and think, wow, that's fine.

I can still do it, and fair place.

Some people can, so,

but just on the complaints and claims side of things,

PI is a big problem for all of us.

Yeah.

And it's not getting any better really.

, let's face it.

What there isn't, and I understand why there isn't, is transparency over.

You know what's going wrong.

I'm sure many of us have attended conferences where insurers or whoever

have talked and, over the last 25 years, I think the main reasons

for claims are dampness, structural movement chimneys and roofs, and I don't

think that's changed significantly.

And yet we're still making the same mistakes as surveyors, for the last

however many years really, on the whole.

But we never get any feedback.

We never get any feedback on.

What the trends are, what we need to be aware of.

And I have a particular gripe or issue I think with, we have a, the ombudsman,

CEDR, those kind of bodies are RICS who, see things all the way through.

And really, effectively it can become a cash cow because if we're

paying for people to go through this process, I think it's right.

It should be free at point of view for consumers actually to go through.

But who's helping us get better?

Because sometimes you look at these complaints and claims, and it's not

just about the one defect that was missed.

There's never ever just one thing, and they are so complex.

In terms of process, the way that we do things, how you speak to clients,

so many different triggers, but we don't have that loopback mechanism.

Yeah.

to say, well this is how we all need to improve.

These are the lessons learned.

And we might get, use this paragraph , but that's about it.

And therefore, how are we ever really as a whole ever gonna improve?

Well, we're not, quite frankly

That's not in the public advantage, is it?

No yeah, I could go off all day about complaints and CEDR and

processes and things, and I, I hear you.

I we're on the same page for most of what you've just said.

I mean, I think information sharing and feeding back in a constructive way, in

a sensitive way I mean, PI is a big, I get quite passionate about PI because

obviously I have to deal with, it happened for years and, I have views on that.

But I think in terms of complaint, How the industry's ever gonna react.

It's a bit like making this I dunno, I remember a quote that springs to mind.

Something like that.

Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again.

it's like, well, we're making all these same complaints, but

nobody's sharing that information.

But, and I say nobody, I mean, there's lots of different parties

that could get together to do it.

I'd love there again, let's not open cans of worms and things but the

RICS would be lovely for them to feed back, top 10 complaints this year.

top 10 areas for C P D this year.

And that can be done in a way that nobody's given any sensitive information.

Now, we've often talked about this on this group that we sit in and it's

about trying to share information.

we've, if you take comparables and valuations, for example, Look how good

Rightmove, surveyors have created a data system that is the biggest data

holder in the world that, look how good and accurate valuations are.

Now because of that, well, why can't you plan the same test to

complaint information, and have a database of complaints strip out all

confidential sensitive information.

What a brilliant resource that is for us to train and to educate, especially,

new graduates into the profession.

It's just, it's a no-brainer, but it's never happened and there

doesn't seem anybody out there with an appetite to do it either.

Well, I guess it's

money, to, to fund these things.

And, but the other thing is, as surveyors, we all have very different opinions.

We do that that there is no one source of the truth.

Yeah.

I dunno what the answer is to the joke of how many surveyors does

it take to change a light bulb?

If someone could message in, that would be great.

But we're all different.

And it is a sub, it is subjective, it's an opinion at the end of the

day, And also we're looking at survey.

We look at the technical part and the reporting part, we

always exclude the service.

And that's what really got me into customer experience was looking at, okay,

well how can we prevent this to happen?

What is the risk?

What were the little quirks?

And it's in the smallest of things like making sure your client does read the.

cause it's not just, yeah, it's not just complaints and claims that go

all the way through and that you pay out on, it's that it's a cost to your

business to get any in, cuz you've gotta spend the admin time dealing with it.

And if your client is not reading your report, that is your fault.

There is a reason why, we need to think about accessibility,

how easy we've made it.

, did we actually tell the client anywhere to read the report?

Did we speak to the client?

Did we, you know, do we need to make it you know, here are

the key highlights or whatever.

And it's all of that customer journey stuff, and that's where I see.

A lot of surveyors and particularly small firms, they don't spend time on their

business working on it, understanding how it works, the kind of service they

wanna give, but we all really wanna give a good quality report, which they are, but

it'll do nothing for you if you haven't had that service that goes along what I

used to do, which I'd recommend people.

Do actually is for every complaint or claim or quirk or something that

comes up in their business, they have like a risk log, which can just be a

simple spreadsheet, but note down what happened, what was the trigger, what

could be done to prevent it and how some sort of red, amber, green traffic

light over, what have you changed?

Is it possible to change If it's not, you accept it as a risk

that this might happen again.

, but at least you are understanding what's happening because it's not just people.

Sometimes there's tech solutions that can, could make a difference as well,

But you've gotta spend time on that.

And some people will think that's not earning money.

Cause we talk about fees.

, but you wanna look at it as the whole, don't you?

Yeah.

I mean, that's the biggest trap people fall into of from

an SMEs sole practitioner for those starting out on their own.

It's the biggest trap everyone will fall into early on is that you get so

entrapped in working in the business.

You never work on it.

you never work on identifying where you can improve things and developing that

practice, and you get stuck in a ru I.

State in the office, I guess.

But it is, it's, and maybe it's not as easy as people think, we're all, we can

be guilty of being brilliant surveyors, but rubbish at business development or

marketing.

I, I think so.

And I think we totally underestimate it.

there's a reason why we have copywriters and people who can design websites.

Other people are experts in their own right.

And yet that's everything.

Can we, yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

and visibility Is a key thing.

as we're recording this, we're talking about recession and what might happen

to the market and interest rates and all of those things going on, and I'm

seeing surveyors start to reach out to say, where do you get your work from?

because, for the last couple of years, in the nicest way, we've had it handed

on a plate and we've, and a lot of people have just taken what's in front of them.

, so those that haven't worked on their brand and understood who their

clients are and all of those things.

We'll come a cropper, frankly.

Yeah.

It's it's a tricky at least be very worried right now.

And it doesn't have to be.

Yeah.

No, I think that's the thing.

I think, about just taking a moment and staying calm and working through it, but

it is difficult, mean, I think the last few years, if we look at that I feel

for anyone that's sort of set up and started up in the last couple of years

because it's been a unique pressure.

Things that have come together to create a, an unusual market that

we'll never see again, in my opinion.

, think what all is happening right now is we're returning back to normal.

I mean, most people panic think, what the hell's going on?

Just going back to normal interest rates are going to normal levels, products

are going back to where they were.

We've just had a very bizarre couple of years of covid and things that.

I wouldn't say we'll never see that again cuz obviously you never say never.

But this is just normality and what we should all be doing really, is

just working on our businesses.

Not just sitting there thinking, well thank you very much.

There's another job and I'll work through that the way it goes.

And onto next one.

You've gotta be a bit more about you really to want to develop it.

Otherwise, your best place to be is in a countrywide or an SDN or something

like that, cuz it'll all be done.

You mentioned moving, when you started up there was part

of state agency in your business and sort of part parts surveying.

How has your business evolved over the years?

Do you still do a state agency as part of

it or?

No, so, so that was kind of, so starting at Countrywide the next

step was into private practice at SM e with the agency side of things.

And that wasn't the end really.

That was kind of the beginning of carpenters really.

I was there for a while.

I reached a point where I thought, well, this kind of wasn't what I was expecting.

It's not mine.

And I think it was that light bulb moment then when I thought, you know what?

I could do this.

And it took me, what, 15 to 20 years to realize actually, yeah,

I've got confidence and I've got skills and I can do this.

I'm doing it for someone else.

I can do it for me.

So I just a chance conversation, a chance meeting with Mike Carpenter at the

time, and just right place, right time.

And, I met Mike.

I have an awful lot.

that I owe Mike, cuz he is just learned so much from him.

And that was how I came back with carpenters.

So it was Mike's business, so I didn't set up carpenters from scratch.

I'm not gonna sit here and say, oh, look at me, my business.

It's amazing.

It wasn't longing.

I just took it and made it my own.

In that sense, it's a business that was established back in 1980s early eighties.

What size business was.

It was, it's an interesting one.

Cause it and where obviously I'll run through.

But back in the day it was a small business that worked

up to couple of surveyors.

a couple of surveys, a couple of admin.

But it was linked at that time again.

Cause I think going back a while, most survey practice.

Were attached to agencies.

there was a natural survey valuation element to everything.

And it was one of those and of course at the time, business partnerships being

what they are the agency side and the survey side, i e Mike being the survey

side had very different visions and he parted companies set up Carpenters and a

way he went did lots of different things.

Very entrepreneurial man.

Different businesses and different things.

But yeah, he just reached a point where he thought, you know what?

I wanna start planning for my retirement.

and working that, that's where I kind of came into the fold.

And, at the time then I joined, there was literally me, Mike,

and Anne or the surveyor that, that was doing commercial work.

It was a multidiscipline practice at that point.

So, back in the days, again, the r c s have done some good things,

, despite what people say about them.

And one of those things is pushing people to.

Be absolutely amazing at one thing or a few small things, rather than

being all things to everybody.

So at that point obviously we went through some structuring changes and things like

that, but it was always with a plan to look one day this will be yours and you

take it and develop it how you want.

I was there for probably five, six years before I bought the BU business

from Mike and at that time it was me the team of admin staff and it was

very much, Mike was around as a mentor but not actively in the business

and it was just organic, so I felt.

Focus on what I know.

Focus on what I'm good at.

So the first thing I did was strip out the commercial element, because

I don't know how to value offices and all those kind of things.

Yeah.

So, so it was restructured slightly.

And it was organic.

never said, right, this is it.

I'm gonna start, growing a massive national firm.

It was right.

I know one or two people that would be great to work with.

Anthony and Craig that had grown up Countrywide days,

we'd all worked together.

So Anthony came along, joined me, then Craig followed then Aiden, then Steven.

It's just been an organic process and to the point where over the

last several years we've never once gone on a recruitment drive.

We've never pushed that.

We've just thought, you know what, there's opportunities here

to just keep organically growing.

We're still a regional practice.

We're not national.

We're still have small fish in a big pond.

I look at it, but you know, we're eight, nine surveyors.

We're four or five sort of admin teams.

So we're a big enough business to, to actually make a difference.

But we're small enough to care and make that sort of personal side of

the business, do something different,

So, I think a business at that set of that size can be quite agile.

when it comes to technology, when it comes to different ways of working

the pros and cons with everything.

Some interesting things here.

One is it's really interesting that you moved into working with somebody.

I get contacted a lot by surveyors who want to sell their business.

I see a lot of surveyors advertising their business for sales, and I think

who wants to buy that, particularly when some of them are just one man bands Yeah.

And they don't understand.

What assets they have or what they can sell on.

Sometimes there's partnerships and there's no adequate paperwork or

agreements or anything in place cuz everyone's mates and that's how it,

and all of a sudden it's got tricky.

But also on the other hand, you've got, we talked.

People wanted to work for themselves or of an aspiration

to, to own their own businesses.

They go and do it the hard way and start from scratch, cuz I guess the

fear of taking on someone else's PI or whatever, but the, that's

one thing that can be managed.

But also having that mentorship, which you obviously got from

Mike, It's absolutely invaluable.

And we talked about support and if I think about the number of surveyors

who, knees are thinking of Downing tools, there's loads of them.

And secondly, I know they don't want to, they've just got dodgy knees

And so there's definitely a model out there for an understanding that, building

relationships and not being threatened by.

It's, yeah, it's a big thing.

And I can really relate to all of that.

I mean, I think Mike, it's all about trust.

And, once Mike knew me well enough to trust me, he was very open

about his vision for retirement, his vision for the business.

And all he really wanted at the end of the day was someone

to do their own thing with it.

It, like I say, it was such a good sort of feel about it all.

There was no selfishness, there was no greed, there was no, well,

this is mine and you can't do that.

There was none of that.

It was very much, very supportive.

But I think if I was doing it all again now and I was looking to set up on my

own, the first thing I'd be doing is going to those mics of the world and

saying, Look, you might not be wanting to do it now, but why don't I come work

for you with you until such time that you know, it's something that's an option.

I mean, it's the next best thing really.

Then going on your own.

The last thing I would ever wanna do, and I'm quite a sociable person, so I

wouldn't wanna work on my own anyway.

I don't think so.

I would always want people around me.

But what better way to have a mentor and a support system?

Again, no different to Countrywide just on a small basis.

there is so many brilliant minds out there that have got such a good reputation.

It's just them on their own.

And it might be a small business, but what shame to see that disappear because if

no one does that, it's just gone forever.

Yeah.

And the knowledge that you get, we could all think of characters from the past and

you know, that knowledge just disappears.

You know, and we need, but it's things.

knowing the local areas, we think we know a local area, but you

know, Adrian, there was a guy called Adrian in my old countrywide

office, used to call him the Oracle.

He knew everything.

Yeah.

Literally when everything was built different things that

happened in different areas.

it was, and that was perhaps priceless, and having that transfer of of knowledge

because, and it's not just the technical knowledge because that will always change.

And that will always be readily accessible through c p d trading

and various things, I guess.

But it's that local knowledge and relationships and history

and that makes a real difference.

So where's your business heading now?

Yeah.

So, yeah, I'm an ideas sort of person.

I think by nature I like to explore new challenges and have goals to work

to and things like that, I guess.

But in terms of business goals I never set out to build a business

that could reach a million pound turnover or anything like that.

But we've done all those things and it's strange when you get to a point

where you think, well, I've done what I.

To achieve.

I've kind of achieved those sort of milestones.

Where do we go now?

And I'm always that, where do I go now, kind of person.

I think where we've gone over the last year or two where we continue to go and

what kind of excites me is I mean we can say often say it, but do we really

mean it in terms of giving something back to the profession and trying to.

Support and nurture other people.

the last two surveyors that came into our practice, both Sava candidates

that I admire completely because, these are candidates with life experience

that have changed careers that are brilliant minds that have just took

the time to say, you know what?

I want a better life.

I want a better.

Job.

I want something different.

But I dunno how to get there.

And they need a mentor and they need someone to give them a chance.

And so Aiden, Steven, very much of that, I, last few years

they've come into the practice.

We've got two new guys coming on board in the new year of all times.

People look at the moment, think.

Why would you be recruiting?

At the moment it's, look, we're just back to a normal market and, again, mentoring

and training with two new server recruits.

So

Can I ask you about bringing, because they don't, they cost

money when you get trainees in, into the business and, that puts a lot of people.

People are like, but you, I guess you, you plan for that.

It's what your business.

Yeah, no, I mean, the thing is, it's I'm quite open about this, is

that and, aid and Steve and Greg and Ryan, they will all tell you the same things.

these are people that have already committed their own finances.

They're already working.

This is a I'm juggling all things family life, work life balance,

whilst training to be a survey.

What they really need and what a lot of these guys and girls need is

just someone to give them mentor.

Whilst on the go, as a firm, if you are a an S M E or a sole practitioner,

even looking to grow, you don't need to commit to creating a job role.

You don't need big salary budgets and things like that.

You just need to offer mentoring, trained supporting and it just leads somewhere.

So, in terms of costs, yes, there are costs but then probably not

as big as people think, really.

And it's not as scary as people think.

And, I don't necessarily think that.

Most cyber candidates I talk to are after.

Really?

They're not coming to you saying, well, I want a job.

Give me a job.

They're coming saying, I need experience.

I want shattering, I want mentoring.

That's free.

That doesn't cost anybody anything.

Yeah.

And there's, and it's the same with APC candidates sometimes,

it's not that they're looking for a Counsellor and someone to help

them write all of their application.

Sometimes they just want the odd.

Here and there, and and to build a relationship and understand more about,

I guess, the life experience of what it's like because it's, you know, it's

a, we don't just walk into people's homes, we walk into their lives as well.

And we see it, we see it wa walks and all.

I think what we all need to do is trainees and those that can mentors

need to be better at asking what they specifically need, so saying, Hi, I am

looking, I need a mentor in Birmingham.

It's like Birmingham is huge.

. What part of Birmingham?

What kind of properties?

when would you want this?

Why do you want it, what's the background?

a lady reached out to me the other day.

She's doing her a p c, she was actually looking for commercial.

Her business doesn't do that, and although she's got it covered in a her APC

submission, she wanted to go out and do a.

Measured surveys.

And so she reached out to me to say, do you know anybody?

And I just put in touch with a few people and hopefully she's fine.

But some people get really, put off of, well, they're gonna take up my time.

And I guess we need to think about reverse mentoring.

We can learn a lot from students and trainees.

. And like you said, we're always learning and I wonder if some surveyors are quite

threatened by their knowledge or lack of.

and that being shown, but we've gotta be o absolutely open

to that.

Yeah, I think so.

I mean, it's a, it is a difficult one to train self, to be open-minded.

I mean, I'm the first to say, our Sava guys, teach me things every day.

I mean, I don't know.

It all never, will never professed to and you never gonna be able to.

So I think having some fresh minds and some support against

that word, again, support, those mentors are there to support you.

I mean, they'll very often happily collect keys help you with comparables

saying silly, but hold tape, measure and things like that they'll happily

get stuck in and, that's also,

they'll do.

Yeah.

But also they'll do other stuff like do research.

know, find the latest, what,

documents on whatever.

Yeah.

All the sort of desktop research, pre apps and all that sort of stuff.

If anything, really I feel like every practice should have a new

trainee that you are mentoring in it.

Because if we don't again, it's that you are only ever gonna be stuck

working in your business, not on it.

What better way to help you work on your business to free up a bit of time?

if you take one or two jobs a week where someone's.

All of that sort of periphery stuff, your research, your desktop, your

key collections, all those things.

That's a few hours you've spent that week that, well, why not make a few calls to

local contacts and develop your business, join a b and I club, whatever it might be.

There's lots of things you can do, but yeah, just having those people around

you to support you I, I don't understand why people would ever wanna work on

their own, or quite frankly, I dunno.

Well, If I think back, some days I just wanna be grumpy and not talk

to anyone, . And, but most, I mean, I work by myself and that's why I do things like

the podcast in the community because I'm on my own and I need that engagement, But

there are some days when I just can't be asked and , I just wanna do my own thing.

But you have to get, get over yourself.

One thing I think is needed, and we talked about giving back to the industry

and, in lots of different ways, is I think for students, trainees, mentees, we

don't really know what good looks like.

What does a good placement look like, what should happen.

I worry about some trainees and students being taken advantage.

In terms of working conditions, what they're sent out to do, health and safety.

And another thing that that, that came to light when I was talking to someone

a lit a little while ago when we sign these contracts, your first contract

as a surveyor, when as a, employee is gonna be the biggest contract you've

ever signed and no one supports you with it, you just sign it because

it's a job and you're grateful for it.

And no one gives you that, that support to.

Let's just read through this.

Oh, you're tied in for five years, or whatever.

Oh, you've gotta work Sundays.

We need to be able to support youngsters.

I, say youngsters loosely cuz in residential, a lot of us are mature when

we when we come in, but I think we don't always see what good looks like and that.

Mentees as well.

But it also helps others who might be thinking about taking somebody

on say, well actually this is what you do and this is how it works and

this is how I budget for it and this is what I've got back from it, in

terms of the reverse mentoring side.

So the more that we can share then the better.

Before we just finish off, I wanna ask you about technology.

Cause I know you've got a new venture that you've been working on.

Tell me a bit more about.

Yeah.

Yeah, no, I'm happy to.

So yes, Surventrix, it's an exciting new adventure, new challenge really for me.

Again, I, I think as an industry PropTech is a word that's used almost every day.

There's lots of some, there's lots of fantastic bits of kit out there.

Some really good platforms, you we will all be familiar with 'em in terms of Go

Reports and call Logic and various others.

All do wonderful things.

But in my opinion, at least for what that's worth, none of them do it all.

none of them.

There's not a single platform that does everything for everybody from start to

finish, whether that's customer engagement at the front, whether that's report

writing at the back, whether that's file directory in the middle, whether

that's auditing, regulation, terms and conditions, all those kind of things.

So what Surventrix is,, it's a business that.

Myself and Ben, a about to launch really.

So in a couple weeks time it's going live And yeah, we are quite

excited to see what it can do.

I think the vision for me is, It's our target audiences, sole practitioners,

SMEs, it's people out there that we talked about the support system before.

it's genuinely there to help support businesses that might not know

how to take an inquiry and turn it into a report delivery at the

end, and everything in between.

There are so many facets of that process that are quite important from

regulation point of view, but also from a customer experience point of view.

So there's a lot of time going into the customer experience

and the customer communication.

and all those things.

So, yeah it's a system and a platform that we are designing to hopefully

disrupt the market a little bit and help firms along the way.

And hopefully it's saving a bit of money cuz we all wanna make money cause we do.

But it's trying to disrupt the market a little bit because at the moment

there's two or three choices and you need two or three systems, so why can't

we have one and be more cost effective and, do a bit of good along the way.

So yeah, quite excited to see where we're.

Yeah I think that's a great idea and I'm really interested

to see how it all pans out.

Cuz it is confusing with lots of different systems and processes and

then people to pull it together.

I remember years and year, many years ago there was a tender that we had

for a new complaints system and.

We had these sort of pitches that, know, people came and I remember

these two old guys turning up like Bert & Ernie, just like old guys wad

on, talked about all their IT stuff.

And you know, there were others that just blew them out the water.

But I always remember this guy saying, Marion, sometimes we

just need a bit of project glue.

It's all, we need some glue to put it together.

And I've hung onto that for y for years cuz obviously things

didn't quite go to a plan.

We just need some glue that sort of pulls things together and sometimes that's a

person, an office manager or whatever.

But sometimes it can be technology we need to keep things really simple so

that it can be, could be manageable.

And I like the idea that, if regulation come in, you've got

everything that you need, at least in, as much as in, in one place.

But every single business I've ever come across is different.

Different in the way they approach things, want to do things.

We're all sticking our ways of things that we like, the rhythm

and routine that gives us comfort.

And when I've seen firms.

Or, you know, individual surveys want to move over to different technology.

They don't have their documents pro their processes documented.

They don't understand how everything happens.

So that can be translated then over to.

a new system or they realize that it's all in their head.

Well, it makes it twice as hard then to any system to work.

So that time to understand how things work, even if you work by yourself it

will make any transition over much, much easier because, You're moving

the same over, but you're also then making improvements at the same time.

So it's quite a big a big thing to go through, but really exciting times then.

Yeah, hopefully.

I mean, I, you know, I, if I get one thing out of it, it will

be, it's a new challenge for me.

I mean, I, I feel like I've done everything I wanted to do in the survey

since, and I love still doing my job.

I still have nothing more than going out the main buildings and.

You know, Carpenters is in a place now where the guys and girls

that help me run that business.

It doesn't need me.

In a way.

It has me and it will always have me, but it doesn't need me.

Which is an amazing place to be.

So it's a nice time for me to think, well, let's do something a bit different.

This has come along and I think.

There's a genuine sort of gap in the market to do this.

There's a big need for this, I think, as an industry, which absolutely talk about,

the regulation, the customer experience.

But let's not forget the guys and girls on the ground.

let's try and make the surveys lives easier.

if uh, if I take a sole practitioner, they will, hopefully they'll love Surventrix

because, Can, it's just do everything in one place, when we have lots of different

bits of paper or different systems and, spend the time on what matters.

And that if I can get one thing, get at the back of it, it will be for a user

to look at it and say, do you know what that allowed me to spend 10, 15 minutes

more with my client because I hadn't gotta do this, that, and the other.

It was just click a button and it's done.

So yeah.

So it's interesting.

I mean, we'll see, but

it's, it is, But I think we've also to be careful,

click a button and it's done.

Because to get to that point of click a button.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

You've gotta, it's not there to replace the human being

or any of that kinda thing.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I think that's where people see tech solutions as well.

It's gonna fix everything.

Yep.

It's actually, no, it's gonna help you run your business better with confidence.

Yeah.

So that you can.

Click the button.

That's it.

That's it.

I mean, the sales pitch for me is that, look, this is a system that's been

designed by surveys and a surveyor that's been there, done that, got the t-shirts.

So hopefully we know what the important trigger points are.

The business, the structural bits, the regulation, the compliance,

the auditing, the important bits.

But we use equally know better than anybody.

How important customer service is.

There are so many facets to a system and this is why I don't think it's

ever been perfected, cuz it's not easy.

I think it was easy, everybody would've admit by now, but there's some brilliant

report writing tools out there.

But that's all they do.

Some brilliant directory systems.

It's all they do.

Some brilliant c r m tools.

All they do well, why not have something that pulls all

that together and absolutely.

It allows us to just spend so much more time with the client.

It's not about saying, well, I'll click this and it's done.

It's about, well, I can click that and I can talk to you and answer

your questions about X Y I can run through the report with you.

I can, that

reduces risk ultimately.

but also it means that you can do more of the stuff that you love in your business.

Exactly.

Get rid of, things that nobody enjoys doing but have to do cuz it's important.

Things like terms and conditions and things like audits and job allocations

and job flows and diary management and.

, all of those report delivery things that it's, yeah, that, I dunno,

anyone that enjoys it really, I think they enjoy the customer engagement.

They enjoy looking at the building, spend more time looking at the

building, less time worrying about what you're doing on paper and stuff.

So yeah, it's not a one size fits all.

I think it's flexible.

So I'm, my, I'm interested to sort of get going with it.

There's no better sort of feedback than the people that

see it, so we'll soon find out.

But yeah.

Exciting but scary times ahead.

. Marion Ellis: Good stuff.

Ian, it's been lovely to talk to you today.

I think people will get a lot from you sharing your the word that

comes to mind actually is legacy.

Which sounds a bit, heavy.

But it is, and I think sharing, that's why I love these podcasts,

sharing what you've learned.

You know, the people will be listening to this and think, yeah,

actually that's really helpful and that'll make a difference.

So thank you for that.

thank you very much.

Thanks for listening.

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